Highest printed ability scores in the game?

[CIDE]

Hey Playground,


I had a conversation not too long ago about what a sort of not Pun-Pun amalgamated creature would look like in 3.5. Hypothetically, a creature that had the best of everything from every non-unique creature out there and were trying to figure out what that'd look like. If it duplicated the highest ability scores in the game, barring any items or tricks to have infinite scores or anything like that, what would this thing look like adjusted for a medium sized creature?

I don't have every book and AFB from a few anyway so I thought I'd get some help for the deep dive. How insane would this thing be?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd imagine some combination of half-minotaur goliath with levels in each of barbarian, frenzied bererker, berserk, warhulk and maybe a couple other templates and classes can get you something pretty impressive. The number to beat is Thor's 129 from D&DG, IIRC.

[Biggus]

If Dragon Magazine content is allowed, great wyrm Time Dragon (#359, p.36-41) for everything except Dex (Str 91 Dex 10 Con 73 Int 74 Wis 81 Cha 74) (Thor's Strength of 92 (102 in rage) does beat it, but I'm pretty sure Thor counts as a unique creature...)

If not, probably the great wyrm Prismatic Dragon (ELH/SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon)) for everything except Dex (Str 73 Dex 10 Con 64 Int 64 Wis 65 Cha 64).

For Dex, probably the primal air elemental at Dex 43 (ELH/SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/elementalPrimal.htm#primalAirElemental)).

Even if we include unique beings, the only one which gets beaten that I can see on a quick scan over the gods is Dex, Corollan Larethian has Dex 44. The only reason Thor wins Strength is that his belt doubles his Strength score, not his actual Strength (it increases his lifting ability by 588 times).

Edit: the great wyrm Force Dragon is stronger than the Prismatic (Str 75).

Edit 2: and Iron Colossus beats them (Str 80)

[AvatarVecna]

Hey Playground,


I had a conversation not too long ago about what a sort of not Pun-Pun amalgamated creature would look like in 3.5. Hypothetically, a creature that had the best of everything from every non-unique creature out there and were trying to figure out what that'd look like. If it duplicated the highest ability scores in the game, barring any items or tricks to have infinite scores or anything like that, what would this thing look like adjusted for a medium sized creature?

I don't have every book and AFB from a few anyway so I thought I'd get some help for the deep dive. How insane would this thing be?

This is, from a certain perspective, a difficult question to answer. Even without tricks to get looping bonuses to attributes or anything like that...any particular creature could only purchase an item so expensive based on its level, and that purchase could only purchase so high a bonus, but the creature's level could scale indefinitely (in the case of creatures that can advance by class level). So "via epic items" probably shouldn't be allowed to count. How about items stacking spell effects? Lots of spells give attribute bonuses that aren't infinite in nature, can we stack up all those and see what happens, or is that not what you're looking for?

Okay so what about monsters that can advance by HD indefinitely? They can get unlimited bonuses from HD (and eventually, from epic feats). I'm unsure what monsters can advance indefinitely by HD, besides dragons, but I'm sure there are some. But let's say infinite HD advancement doesn't count. Is monster HD advancement otherwise kosher? Or is there not a substantial difference in your eyes between a monster advancing from 20 HD to 200 HD and a monster advancing from 20 HD to infinite HD? Certainly this is a relevant question if the monster can advance by class level as well - that's another way to get NI bonuses to attributes from HD and epic feats. Is that allowed?

Does templating count? You can have infinite iterations of the half-dragon template. But even if you couldn't stack the same kind (let's say you couldn't do Half-Red + Half-Red, but you could do Half-Red + Half-Black + Half-Green etc), is adding up every template in the game the kinda answer you're looking for?

I ask all these questions, because the original post reads like it's asking "what monster's unaltered statblock has the highest number for each attribute", but the first response is reacting as if the original post asked "how high can you get attributes without cheating with loops". And those are two very different ways to read the original post and I'm wondering which one you'd like us to use, or maybe what middle ground between them you'd like us to use.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

For Dex, probably the primal air elemental at Dex 43 (ELH/SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/elementalPrimal.htm#primalAirElemental)).

Even if we include unique beings, the only one which gets beaten that I can see on a quick scan over the gods is Dex, Corollan Larethian has Dex 44.

Gravewyrms (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20040109a) beat both, with a Dex of 50.

[Biggus]

Gravewyrms (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20040109a) beat both, with a Dex of 50.

Well found, I just found Hermes in D&DG who ties with them.

[Thurbane]

I was coming to mention Time Dragons and Gravewyrms, but they're already listed.

Iron Colossus and Living Vault both have Str 80.

[CIDE]

I'd imagine some combination of half-minotaur goliath with levels in each of barbarian, frenzied bererker, berserk, warhulk and maybe a couple other templates and classes can get you something pretty impressive. The number to beat is Thor's 129 from D&DG, IIRC.

That's definitely working its way into "unique creator" territory. Also, requires class levels and isn't technically a "printed" value. I was thinking something more official, like the referenced 129 strength from Thor. Though, he's also exempt due to being a unique creature.


If Dragon Magazine content is allowed, great wyrm Time Dragon (#359, p.36-41) for everything except Dex (Str 91 Dex 10 Con 73 Int 74 Wis 81 Cha 74) (Thor's Strength of 92 (102 in rage) does beat it, but I'm pretty sure Thor counts as a unique creature...)

If not, probably the great wyrm Prismatic Dragon (ELH/SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon)) for everything except Dex (Str 73 Dex 10 Con 64 Int 64 Wis 65 Cha 64).

For Dex, probably the primal air elemental at Dex 43 (ELH/SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/elementalPrimal.htm#primalAirElemental)).

Even if we include unique beings, the only one which gets beaten that I can see on a quick scan over the gods is Dex, Corollan Larethian has Dex 44. The only reason Thor wins Strength is that his belt doubles his Strength score, not his actual Strength (it increases his lifting ability by 588 times).

Edit: the great wyrm Force Dragon is stronger than the Prismatic (Str 75).

Edit 2: and Iron Colossus beats them (Str 80)

I just want to point out the stats don't all have to be from a single creature. Though, I guess we can consider both Dragon magazine and non-dragon magazine as two separate entities. It does sound like the Iron colossus wins in the strength category, though. I don't think I've seen anything close to 80 anywhere else. Even adjusting for size changes.



This is, from a certain perspective, a difficult question to answer. Even without tricks to get looping bonuses to attributes or anything like that...any particular creature could only purchase an item so expensive based on its level, and that purchase could only purchase so high a bonus, but the creature's level could scale indefinitely (in the case of creatures that can advance by class level). So "via epic items" probably shouldn't be allowed to count. How about items stacking spell effects? Lots of spells give attribute bonuses that aren't infinite in nature, can we stack up all those and see what happens, or is that not what you're looking for?

Okay so what about monsters that can advance by HD indefinitely? They can get unlimited bonuses from HD (and eventually, from epic feats). I'm unsure what monsters can advance indefinitely by HD, besides dragons, but I'm sure there are some. But let's say infinite HD advancement doesn't count. Is monster HD advancement otherwise kosher? Or is there not a substantial difference in your eyes between a monster advancing from 20 HD to 200 HD and a monster advancing from 20 HD to infinite HD? Certainly this is a relevant question if the monster can advance by class level as well - that's another way to get NI bonuses to attributes from HD and epic feats. Is that allowed?

Does templating count? You can have infinite iterations of the half-dragon template. But even if you couldn't stack the same kind (let's say you couldn't do Half-Red + Half-Red, but you could do Half-Red + Half-Black + Half-Green etc), is adding up every template in the game the kinda answer you're looking for?

I ask all these questions, because the original post reads like it's asking "what monster's unaltered statblock has the highest number for each attribute", but the first response is reacting as if the original post asked "how high can you get attributes without cheating with loops". And those are two very different ways to read the original post and I'm wondering which one you'd like us to use, or maybe what middle ground between them you'd like us to use.


No items, no template stacking, no class levels, no advancing HD. Just the print value for any given ability score. The idea of cheating or optimizing a way to an arbitrarily high ability score is easy and there's probably a dozen threads out there for any given ability score. That wasn't the purpose of this thread.

Thanks for asking to clarify, though.


Gravewyrms (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20040109a) beat both, with a Dex of 50.

Even without the Gravewyrm (that thing seems really awesome anyway) the Gloom has a Dex of 46.


I was coming to mention Time Dragons and Gravewyrms, but they're already listed.

Iron Colossus and Living Vault both have Str 80.

Awesome. Thanks.


So, it looks like a Str: 80 and Dex: 50 so far. The aforementioned epic dragons probably have other stats that win out but I think I'll wait a bit before just tossing those in there just yet.

[the_tick_rules]

the highest that comes to mind for me in thor's strength in deities and demigods, 92. I have the book in a closet and unless it was faq or a different version it's 92 not 129.

[TiaC]

Dragon 297 has the Sphinx of Giza statted as a golem. It has a strength of 290. (It has the highest numbers in a lot of things, HD, natural armor, attack bonus, natural attack damage, DR, strength, and CR.)

[Buufreak]

That's definitely working its way into "unique creator" territory. Also, requires class levels and isn't technically a "printed" value. I was thinking something more official, like the referenced 129 strength from Thor. Though, he's also exempt due to being a unique creature.


He's also cheating, using a belt that "doubles his strength." In quotes as this is something I highly contest, at least statistically. (Big post on gods, stats, and being forum rule friendly coming soon)

[the_tick_rules]

Dragon 297 has the Sphinx of Giza statted as a golem. It has a strength of 290. (It has the highest numbers in a lot of things, HD, natural armor, attack bonus, natural attack damage, DR, strength, and CR.)

where can I see these stats? an internet search revealed nothing I could read and I am interested in seeing this creation.

[Max Caysey]

where can I see these stats? an internet search revealed nothing I could read and I am interested in seeing this creation.

I too would also very much like to see this creature. I remember hearing about it like 15 years ago, but never found it then, and honestly thought people might have been wrong... Supposedly it was CR 100... anywho, I can't find it in issue #297 so a more precise reference would be great!

Found it! Its under the "Relics of Myth" page 50 in Dragon #297

Cheers!

[CIDE]

Dragon 297 has the Sphinx of Giza statted as a golem. It has a strength of 290. (It has the highest numbers in a lot of things, HD, natural armor, attack bonus, natural attack damage, DR, strength, and CR.)

That thing has some insane stats. That's crazy.


He's also cheating, using a belt that "doubles his strength." In quotes as this is something I highly contest, at least statistically. (Big post on gods, stats, and being forum rule friendly coming soon)

Thor is disqualified for a lot of reasons. The dubiousness of his actual strength is a big part of it, though.

[the_tick_rules]

I cant find the actual stats of the sphinx online, where did you find them?

[Endarire]

jmax of the Shapechange Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?517934-The-3-5-Shapechange-Handbook/) would like to know these if they're of 28 HD or less. (25 from the spell + 3 from Reserves of Strength.)

[Biggus]

I cant find the actual stats of the sphinx online, where did you find them?

There's a site called internet archive: dragon magazine which has them all from #1 to #430. I won't link to it here because I don't know if it's legal.

[Thurbane]

If we include 3rd party material, the Immortals Handbook has some stupidly powerful epic beings, some with six-figure ability scores from memory.

Be warned: pretty much no table anywhere takes the book seriously. :smalltongue:

[Max Caysey]

If we include 3rd party material, the Immortals Handbook has some stupidly powerful epic beings, some with six-figure ability scores from memory.

Be warned: pretty much no table anywhere takes the book seriously. :smalltongue:

Indeed... I actually think there were a lot of good ideas in the two books, the Ascension and Bestiality that came out, however both were unfinished iirc... and well they are meant for stupidly high epic levels games... like above level 50 at least. But I can certainly see a place for them. Once your characters become so powerful they completely leave the confines of mortality... When the group are the strongest individuals in their crystal sphere and when the most powerful of great wyrm prismatic dragons poses no more threat than does the most powerful termite, then you break out that book!

[CIDE]

If we include 3rd party material, the Immortals Handbook has some stupidly powerful epic beings, some with six-figure ability scores from memory.

Be warned: pretty much no table anywhere takes the book seriously. :smalltongue:

Some 3rd party is fine for the sake of this discussion but that book reaches a bit far for a variety of reasons. I do know that some aspects of it are used by my friends but almost exclusively for lore building.