Challenge: the Ridiculously Average Character

[St Fan]

Here's something that I've been pondering: can you make a viable character that has absolutely no strong point stats-wise?

Imagine you'd have to create a build for a human (other races may get stat modifiers, ruining the point) with a perfect set of 10 10 10 10 10 10 stats...

What classes and builds are totally independent of having good stats?

About none with supernatural powers, I guess, since both spells and psionic powers requires a minimum score in the key stat (with 10, you can only cast cantrips). That include Incarnum classes.

I'm leaning toward martial classes, thus. You'd want heavy armor to compensate poor Dex (though you may lack the strength to avoid being encumbered).

Lots of very important feats demand a minimum of 13 in some stat, though, adding to the problem.

Maybe a Tome of Battle classe, such as Crusader? Maneuvers are dependent of the initiator level, but not on any key stat...

[Zaq]

Warlock. Take invocations without saves. You’ll miss a bit compared to someone with DEX, but touch attacks are still easy and you still (eventually) get BAB. Stay as far away from danger as you can—Eldritch Spear helps.

[crankykobold]

Dragon Fire Adept. Your breathweapon save DC is con based but no to hit roll and entangling exhalation is awesome at lower levels. Most of the better invocations require no saves and last all day. If you are worried about armor take a level of cleric and trade your domains for travel devotion etc. but I wouldn't. By mid levels you should be able to afford mithril chain shirt, mithril heavy shield, mw dastana, and mw Chahar-aina. That gets you a +8 to your ac with no acp.

[Ashiel]

Here's something that I've been pondering: can you make a viable character that has absolutely no strong point stats-wise?
Imagine you'd have to create a build for a human (other races may get stat modifiers, ruining the point) with a perfect set of 10 10 10 10 10 10 stats...
What classes and builds are totally independent of having good stats?
About none with supernatural powers, I guess, since both spells and psionic powers requires a minimum score in the key stat (with 10, you can only cast cantrips). That include Incarnum classes.
I'm leaning toward martial classes, thus. You'd want heavy armor to compensate poor Dex (though you may lack the strength to avoid being encumbered).
Lots of very important feats demand a minimum of 13 in some stat, though, adding to the problem.
Maybe a Tome of Battle classe, such as Crusader? Maneuvers are dependent of the initiator level, but not on any key stat...

Bard can function on minimalist stats and still be quite useful as a force multiplier and can be functional themselves in a few levels regardless of their stats.

Any spheres-based character can be useful regardless of ability scores. Your spell points take a hit but it's very practical to build a fun mage-type with low key stats. You can even build to be useful without actually spending points at low levels by just using the freebie versions of your spells (like 1d6 fire rays or providing wounded buddies temporary Hp).

Druid or any pet class. Just make your pet awesome and use your PC for carrying gear and using magic items.

At 11+, most casters become viable. You just tend to use lots of 1st level spells prepared in higher slots. At 13+ (with a +2 item) you are probably still better than most classes with a few pearls of power, some metamagic, and spell-triggers.

Similar to pet classes, necromancers are a good option here. Cleric prime mystic theurge is a good route to take. Lowest levels are hard but a scroll of animate dead, a paid for owl's wisdom buff, and a death knell spell will get you some undead minions (bloody skeletons are renewable) which will carry you through to 5th level (which by that time you should have a +1 bump in Wisdom and a +2 magic item for Wisdom) allowing you to go on your own. After that you just do a similar process with wizard levels (bumping to 13), and you then proceed to make casting only 3rd level and below spells an obnoxiously frequent number of times per day look good while you support your party with a pile of big meat puppets who don't stay dead and drop support spells like heroism, haste, and similar things on your party and minions. Since all your spells are prepared and you have lots of slots, pearls of power, metamagic rods, and metamagic feats will carry you very far. Especially since metamagic feats do not change the level of the spell, allowing you to recover them with cheap pearls and stack lots of metamagic using lesser rods.

[Nifft]

The best answers (Warlock and Dragonfire Adept) were both already said, so...

Sorcerer with the Draconic Breath feat can expend any spell slot for a useful effect, even if the save DC will suck. Same deal with some other [Draconic] feats. This allows you to be useful before you have sufficient ability boosters to cast the spells you know.

The Chameleon PrC eventually gets sufficient stat boosts to use all her spell slots, and that's before items. Five levels of whatever-you-want to qualify, and then 10 levels of actually-powerful spellcasting.

[Kayblis]

Binder. For real. The class itself can work with any stat allocation, and only some very few features have a save DC based on a stat. Other than that, it's a completely stat-independent class with the ability to change its main class features daily. Most binds offer a mix of always on buffs, skill checks, at-will abilities with no save(from short-range teleports to healing to summoning), and extra options to use your skills on. It's far more unique than "STR class with low STR", or "CHA class with low CHA", so that's why I suggest it over other classes.

Also, it keeps the character in theme. You're average, nothing special, you can't do anything on your own. What the class does is calling for vestiges(remains of ancient entities, like spirits but even less so) to take hold of his body and do their own thing under your command. You are the most painfully average person in the world, you're just backed up by the right people.

[Rebel7284]

Druid might still be viable with all 10s. Level 1 sucks since you can't cast spells, but you have a riding dog which is almost as good as the fighter. By level 3 you can afford a +2 item and you also get +1 at 4th level. If you do some wealth optimization, you might even be able to get those items sooner. While most casters can do this, Druid's animal companion actually gives it a way to survive those first couple of levels. Wild Cohort can help too, I guess.

[Quertus]

Commoner.: Hide in town, slay other commoners for XP. Sacrifice commoners for Dark craft XP (chicken-infested for gold). Take max ranks in Craft: alibi; take Leadership to have willing accomplices. Yes, this will take decades. Use the eventual stat boosts from leveling and venerable age to retrain to a "Tier 1" class - or just pay for the ritual to become whatever Monster you probably should have been born as.

[Maat Mons]

Sorcerer. Use the Blood of Siberys ACF to treat your Cha as +4 for max spell level and bonus spells.

Starting with 10 and using that virtual +4, your ability increases for level would keep up with your spell progression until level 18. At that point, you'd have 9th-level spell slots, but an effective Cha of only 18 (actual value 14). You wouldn't be able to use those slots until you get your last ASI at 20th level.

Or, you could deliberately waste your ability score increases. Go with +1 each to Str, Dex, Con, Int, and Wis. Well, with that virtual +4, you can still handily get access to Eagle's Splendor and craft yourself a Cloak of Charisma +6. That gives you an effective Cha of 20 (actual 16).

[Vizzerdrix]

How about mystic ranger. You will want to max crafting ranks in alchemy and use acid flasks as your primary weapon. You get a decent skill list and chasis to work with as well as some cantrips, and I think you can stack it with wildshape ranger as well.

[Thunder999]

I'd say druid is your best bet.

For the first 3 levels you are pretty bad, either using a sling to deal rather pitiful damage safely from range, or a longspear to provide flanking to more useful characters.
Fortunately you have a more useful character as a class feature, your animal companion, so riding dog for 1-3.
At level 4 things improve a bit, we now have a wisdom of 13 between our wealth by level allowing a +2 wisdom item and our level 4 ability score boost, so we can cast 2nd level spells (with pitiful save DCs) and we upgrade to a fleshraker companion, because we need all the help we can get.
Then at level 5 we're pretty much sorted, we no longer mind our rubbish physical scores because we just wildshape into something that sucks less than we do.

Once we can finally cast spells it's a mix of buffs for us and our companion and a bit of summoning.

We're a bit limited on spells per day and have to avoid anything with saves, but we're still probably going to have few issues from here on, ability score increases and magic items can mostly handle keeping our wisdom high enough to cast spells and wildshape+animal companion is a pretty potent combination of abilities on its own.

For feats we want normal druid stuff, though craft wondrous item might be worth considering since we're relying on magic items to get our wisdom high enough so really want the best periapt we can get and a wild clasp for it.

[Heavenblade]

First of all - if you go DFA take the humanoid shape invocation ASAP, and consider a dip into warshaper fpr 2-4 levels. This will let you get decent physical stats and HUGE utility.

[Unavenger]

I'll second Warlock, and also add all of the other pseudocasters who don't actually need a high stat. Even truenamer is a reasonable choice, as everyone gets away with dumping their casting ability score anyway in favour of the ability score that makes their skills work, and you can probably overcome having 4 fewer points of bonus (in particular, if you get to be obnoxious about the human-only restriction and play an illumian, who are humans and don't have racial ability score mods, you'll get +2 to a bunch of useful stuff which can include your truespeak and your initiative).

I would strongly advise against playing a martial character because the 4 fewer points of attack bonus are harder to make back than 4 points of bonus to a specific skill, and you would like not to be frontlining with 10 CON.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

At high-ish levels, Binder. A low-level Binder really needs good stats, but as soon as you can summon Zceryll (level 10 with Improved Binding) you're effectively stat-independent. You can now get by without needing to make an attack roll or use an ability with a save DC ever again.

Then, Dragon Shaman and Warlock are both good. Warlock is probably better because DFAs do allow a save, but at low level DFAs are stupidly good with Entangling Exhalation.

Sorcerers have an ACF called Blood of Siberys which lets them cast spells. Sadly your DCs will be terrible, but you could play a buffer or something (or simply use Power Word Pain, Shivering Touch and other "you lose, no save" spells). This is a little less straightforwards, so I'd rank it lower.

Obviously, all builds that focus on pumping your familiar/mount (Halfling Outrider builds, etc) tend to work fine even if your own stats are low. Similarly, Wild Shape builds are great if you're starting at a level where you can get Wild Shape. The Totem Druid from Dragon Magazine grants an ability mechanically identical to Wild Shape at level 1!

[Powerdork]

Sorcerers have an ACF called Blood of Siberys which lets them cast spells.

Out of curiosity, where can I find this?

[tyckspoon]

Out of curiosity, where can I find this?

Google suggests Dragon Magazine #351, along with some other Eberron-related ACFs.

[SangoProduction]

OK, you did specify "independent of good stats." But do you simply mean "good stats, at all" or "good starting stats"? Because the first one is much more restrictive, and the best answers are already taken.

With the second one, take Barbarian. Boom! You smart! You hit things harder! Then into bear warrior and war hulk. You could probably even fit in a level of sorcerer and grab some Dragon Disciple (both of which being much better from Pathfinder). Swap sorcerer for bloodrager, if using pathfinder. For obvious reasons.

It would take a while to qualify for staples like power attack and whatever uber-charger nonsense, but just fill in with feat taxes you'll need in the future. (That is, unless your DM allows you to conditionally qualify, disabling the feats when your rage stops.)

[Endarire]

A more accurate model of the average player character is one who plays levels 1-6 then disappears due to real life conflicts.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want to go with starting stats that you can alter from there?

Start with 10s all the way across.

Gray elf or lesser tiefling for +2 Int.

Venerable for +3 Int.

And that's at level 1 for a 15 Int, easily enough to get up to 5th level arcane spells or psionic powers. Between level ups, items, etc, this is easily enough to be getting on with.

Alternatively, trade the above for an anthropomorphic bat for a 19 starting Wis. Guess who the best classes are with that.

So, yeah, assuming you're not actually keeping those 10s, you can do quite a bit with a 100% average roll of 10.

[Unavenger]

Gray elf or lesser tiefling for +2 Int.

[...]

Alternatively, trade the above for an anthropomorphic bat for a 19 starting Wis. Guess who the best classes are with that.

That's a great idea, I wonder why the OP didn't think of...


Imagine you'd have to create a build for a human (other races may get stat modifiers, ruining the point)

...oh.

[Asmotherion]

I seccond Warlock. Having a touch attack that deals Untyped Damage at-will and a couple of at-will invocations that allow no save and have good synergy (for exampe darkness and the one that allows you to see in magical darkness, Devil Sight I think) can make an average joe fight on equal terms with the best of 'em. Latter you get Animate Dead, Teleportation, Flight, Wall Spells and lots of other goodies too. And with the right build you can deal decent to above average damage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's a great idea, I wonder why the OP didn't think of...



...oh.Human Heritage or Human Blooded FTW.

[Nifft]

That's a great idea, I wonder why the OP didn't think of...



...oh.

That's the deepest secret of character optimization: merely understanding a text is nothing compared to the power of pretending you never read any of the inconvenient bits.

[tiercel]

Sorcerer with the Draconic Breath feat can expend any spell slot for a useful effect, even if the save DC will suck. Same deal with some other [Draconic] feats. This allows you to be useful before you have sufficient ability boosters to cast the spells you know.

Taking this up to 11 would be cribbing off the Karsite Sorcerer build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21338412&postcount=9) (the conceit being that Karsites can’t cast spells, but going sorcerer anyway just lets you fuel all sorts of abilities with spell slots — here instead, if you are vanilla human, you can use the same techniques not because you have a racial inability to cast but because of your painfully average casting stat)

[Nifft]

Taking this up to 11 would be cribbing off the Karsite Sorcerer build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21338412&postcount=9) (the conceit being that Karsites can’t cast spells, but going sorcerer anyway just lets you fuel all sorts of abilities with spell slots — here instead, if you are vanilla human, you can use the same techniques not because you have a racial inability to cast but because of your painfully average casting stat)

Interesting concept, thanks for the link.

It's blatantly illegal (you'd need to sell your Familiar at least three times, and a Karsite isn't qualified for the Dragonblood Sorcerer ACF) but it might have some tools which could be used for this average fellow.