The Balrog Killer Challenge

[Firechanter]

Similar topic to the "Century Fighter", only this time a bit different.
Picture the LOTR scene where Gandalf stands up to the Balrog.
Now imagine this was not LOTR, but D&D 3.5 or PF1.
Instead of a Balrog, take a Balor as listed in the respective system.
Instead of Gandalf, it's your Wizard PC going toe to toe with the demon.

It's your job to buy your fellowship time to escape, and anyway you want all that juicy XP for the Balor for yourself.
The Balor is not abyss-bent on catching your fellows, he'll be confident enough to snack you first and then go after your buddies. However, he will use all the powers and abilities available to him to kill you.

What is the minimum level you want to be to take him on, and how will you manage to kill him?
Please include your chance of success in your analysis.

Rules:
3.5: Point Buy 32
PF1: Point Buy 25
Race: Core races or Aasimar
Equipment by WBL. You can buy published gear, combine slotted items per the usual rules, or you can make your own with Crafting feats.
If you craft consumables, you can pick whatever Caster Level is available to you.

Sources: ideally, stick to Core and splatbooks; avoid Dragon Mag, Web sources or similar. For 3.5, ideally stick to Core and Spell Compendium spells for brownie points.
No Leadership or the like. You can summon, call, bind or whatever you are able to, however.

Your build does not need to resemble Gandalf, but if you feel like beating up things with sword and staff or throw burning pinecones, go nuts.

Arena: as Moria - you encounter the beast on a narrow stone bridge over a bottomless chasm, then there's also an endless stair, it probably doesn't really matter since the Balor can teleport and fly anyway.

You were aware that encountering a Balor that day was within the realm of possibilities, so you may have prepared your spell selection accordingly.
You can have buffs with a duration of "minutes per level" or longer up and running, but you have to cast them yourself / use your own consumables.

The arena is yours. Have fun, but try to do it with style. ^^

ATTN: please absolutely NO discussion what race, class, stats or level the original Gandalf would be or have. :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[Zanos]

I'll take the extremely lazy and obvious option, and make the X number of pit fiends that serve me for days/CL called with greater planar binding kill the balor for me. If I feel like watching the fight I can cast mind blank and invisiblity on myself, or just watch it on pay per view via scrying. Maybe I can sell seats to Blood War Live(tm) to make some cash. I don't expect many points but hey, it's core and gear and stats hardly matter beyond having an 18 in intelligence to cast 8th level spells. There is no real cap to how many pit fiends we can bind other than our spell slots, and really pit fiends are about as strong as a balor individually. Shouldn't need more than 2 or 3 to approach a 100% success chance. So, level 15?

You could also just be level 17 and cast gate to make any outsider with up to 34 HD(including another balor) come and solve the problem for you. That costs 1,000xp, but you should easily recover way more than that by soloing an ECL+3 encounter. Having a balor fight a balor probably doesn't give the best odds unless your support it yourself with casting, but you could always call up a Celestial Very Old Gold Dragon to solve the problem for you.

[Maat Mons]

Does the Balor use its at-will Dominate Monster to bring an army to the fight? Does he Dominate the allies I'm trying to protect and force them to fight me? Is there a good defense against his at-will Blasphemy?

[Firechanter]

Fair questions. If we stick close to the original scenario, then no: the resident goblins are scared ****less and have fled the scene when the Balrog announced himself; the companions are probably out of range and I'd expect them to have something like Prot from Evil up anyway. Though of course it would spice things up if the Balor made some friends along the way. ^^

[Edreyn]

Any other limitations? Can I cast Gate and call eagles or some friendly Mayars in?
Or use Time Stop, get away from the bridge, then crush the bridge and let gravity do all the work?
Or just use an array of spells to get away, something to improve speed and to ignore attack of opportunity, then again crush the bridge.
Or fly\leap\teleport and crush the bridge?

Yeah, it comes that the best solution is to destroy the bridge, like it was originally, but to prepare in advance, to avoid falling yourself.
Or, something to push him off the bridge, some of Hand's spells.

[Segev]

Remember that part of the question is to determine the lowest level you can manage this. So if you think you’ve got a flippant solution based on casters being overpowered with this “one weird trickspell,” then you should see if you can come up with a lower-level build/solution.

And the reason I call out the flippancy of the response is mainly that it’s kinda boring, while the challenge itself, taken seriously, could lead to some interesting designs.

While it’s still a pat build by this point, I actually wonder if an ubercharger or other massive-damage not-a-primary-caster build wouldn’t be better for this, since I believe the ridiculous damage numbers come online earlier. And balors are still vulnerable to hit point damage.

[Firechanter]

Any other limitations? Can I cast Gate and call eagles or some friendly Mayars in?
Or use Time Stop, get away from the bridge, then crush the bridge and let gravity do all the work?
Or just use an array of spells to get away, something to improve speed and to ignore attack of opportunity, then again crush the bridge.
Or fly\leap\teleport and crush the bridge?


Well, Gate would certainly be possible, but it has already been mentioned in the first reply and requires a pretty high level (17). I was hoping for lower-level solutions; currently Greater Planar Binding at level 15 seems to be in the lead.
Blowing up the bridge or pushing him off won't help unless you also incapacitate the Balor; those buggers have a Fly speed and at-will Teleport.

And even if you manage to incapacitate him and cast him into the abyss, keep in mind that in D&D fall damage caps out at 20d6 and a Balor has >300HP. It might be enough to get away, but expect being grappled by a flaming whip and dragged down with the demon so you get to go into melee while falling a couple of miles. :smallbiggrin:

The biggest danger is probably that a Balor can use Power Word Stun at will, and you probably won't have the required >150HP to be immune to it, especially not as a Wizard. In 3.5 there are items against that, but in PF I am not aware of any such equipment. If you know any, please advise.

Edit: Oh and btw, Balors have True Seeing, so just hiding via Invisibility is not going to cut it.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

No-one has mentioned Pun-pun.

[Firechanter]

Dammit, I forgot to include "no stupid cheese" in the entry post!

[satorian]

A Mailman should be able to deliver a big enough sonic package by level 15, when the second Practical Metamagic comes online. Flavor the Sonic Orb as you bellowing, "You Shall Not Pass!"

[daremetoidareyo]

It appears that disarming is a viable strategy with some dimension door/shadow pounce paired with some critfishing on his own vorpal sword

[legomaster00156]

It appears that disarming is a viable strategy with some dimension door/shadow pounce paired with some critfishing on his own vorpal sword
Crit-fishing doesn't work with vorpal weapons. They explicitly require a natural 20, not a confirmed crit.

[Lirya]

A pathfinder sorcerer can probably kill the balor at 12th level. Battering Blast (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Battering%20Blast) scales like crazy as you pump caster level (Gifted Adept trait, orange prism ioun stone, bloatmage initiate, varisian tattoo, spell specialization, crown of the kobold king, alter of nethys), and orc-bloodline arcana + blood havoc means you deal +2 damage/dice. Blood intensity increases the dice cap by your Charisma modifier while blood piercing gives adds Charisma to spell penetration. Add dweomer essence for another +5 to spell penetration (so you succeed on a natural 1). Wayang Spellhunter acts as a metamagic reducer so you can Empower one and Quicken another for 4 blasts dealing (10d6+20) x 1.5 force damage each and four blasts dealing 10d6+20 each. An average of 550 damage means you can roll a few natural 1s and still be ok.

All that is left is optimizing initiative and ranged touch attack bonus until you win (which could still be a challenge) and hope the balor is within 75 ft.

[PrismCat21]

It's an unfair comparison.
The pit fiend and Balor are basically interchangeable, since I believe the pit fiend was originally a Balor itself, but had to change it's name sure to copyright stuff.
Gandalf is a wizard in the LotR world, but only vaguely resembles DnD wizards. You'd be much more accurate finding a Celestial to represent him, it at least a 'holy' template of some kind.
LotR magic is basically only done by Angels and Demons.
If the top of my head, I'd suggest a Ghaele, though I'm sure their are better options.

[BaronDoctor]

I'm thinking something cheesy. Something to boost save DCs and CL enough to make Wingbind (Wiz4) + Slide (Wiz1) work. Wingbind is Ref and Slide is Will, so I'll admit those are high barriers, but something in me really wants to go for the classic play of shoving it off the edge.

Wingbind is only breakable by Disintegrate (not a balor specialty) and an escape artist check (the reflex save is a bigger hurdle, really). Slide would take a Will save and would only scooch the thing 5 feet, but it's a narrow bridge. If you'd rather go for Telekinesis to Bull Rush the thing, that's probably more reliable.

I'm not sure how much you'd need to pull it off, but that would solve the flight issue. Now, the teleport is another problem, but...I dunno. I like the Looney-Tunes solution.

[daremetoidareyo]

Crit-fishing doesn't work with vorpal weapons. They explicitly require a natural 20, not a confirmed crit.

Audacious attempt at level 1, go into fate spinner with the luck and cat domains, and dip sword sage for clinging shadow strike, bam there's like 25% chance if you disarm him. Sword sage prolly helps with the disarming too. Better lucky than good feat. You roll 3d20, and you have 3 rerolls (or more with fate spinner reroll cheese), and you can keep either a 1 or 20 to activate vorpal. That's a greater than 50% chance of a 1 hit kill if you succeed on the disarm. I imagine the whole thing could be viable by level 12-14.

[Calthropstu]

quickened web + hungry pit. 6th lvl slots. So required level 11th. Bag of holding, enlarged to huge size opening.Place opening over pit, dispel pit forcing balor into bag, dropping bag into portable hole. Balor is destroyed.

[Firechanter]

quickened web + hungry pit. 6th lvl slots. So required level 11th. Bag of holding, enlarged to huge size opening.Place opening over pit, dispel pit forcing balor into bag, dropping bag into portable hole. Balor is destroyed.

That sounds like quite a lot of stuff to do in one round. And if you can't do it all in a single round, what would keep the Balor from just teleporting out of the pit?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

ECL 15 (achievable at an earlier level with lower reliability): Human, Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard (Necromancer) 3/ Ultimate Magus 10; Master Spellthief, Quicken Spell, Split Ray, Twin Spell, Ocular Spell, Arcane Thesis: Enervation, Sanctum Spell, Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), Weapon Focus: Ray. Dex 26 (18 +2 levels +6 enhancement), two Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize, BAB +6.

You have a trick prepared ahead of time, as follows:
Enervation with Arcane Thesis (+2 caster level, -1 metamagic cost per metamagic feat but not lower than the spell's level)
Sanctum Spell (+0 metamagic, effective spell level 3rd)
Lesser Rod of Maximize (+0 metamagic, can be applied to spells of 3rd level and lower)
Split Ray (+2 metamagic)
Twin Spell with Metamagic School Focus, using Augmented Casting from UM (+0 metamagic, costs a 3rd level Beguiler spell slot)
Ocular Spell (+2 metamagic)

That's a +4 metamagic cost but five metamagic feats, which reduces it to taking a spell slot of the spell's actual level which is 3rd. He casts that twice, storing one in each of his eyes for up to 8 hours. He can do this at least three times per day so he's sure to have one.

Caster Level for all classes is the sum total of each class's effective spellcaster level (8+1+13) with a +4 from Ultimate Magus and +2 for Arcane Thesis for 28 total. You can't fail to overcome its SR 28.

Your ray attack bonus is +6 BAB, +8 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus for +15 total vs its touch AC 16, you only miss on a 1 (5%).

He has Moment of Prescience which he uses to gain a +25 to his initiative check (RAW an initiative check is a Dexterity check (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) which is opposed by other initiative checks, and thus an opposed ability check), for a total of +33, he gets a 34 if he rolls a 1 and the Balor gets a 31 if it rolls a 20 so he's guaranteed to go first.

He has Contingency cast to Teleport him away if an area of effect occurs which he believes will deal enough damage to kill him.

So he wins initiative and spends one full-round action to fire four rays from his eyes, each of which inflicts eight negative levels. If only three of the four hit (i.e. he rolls a 1 on one of the four attack rolls) he inflicts 24 negative levels, automatically killing it. Its death throes goes off and his Contingency teleports him out of range before he takes damage from it.

Chance of success: greater than 99%, as he only fails if rolling two or more 1's on four attack rolls.

[Evoker]

Perhaps Plane Shifting them would work? It's available at level 9 to clerics. Wis save and spell resistance are obstacles, but a Plane Shift scroll of Caster Level 17, heightened to level 9 (3825 gp) might work. Knowledge Domain to read a scroll of quickened true strike (caster level 9, cost 900 gp). Then you just need to pass a dc 18 caster level check with a +9 bonus, and a dc 28 caster level check with a +19 bonus (17 + Spell Penetration feat). Those are both slightly better than fifty-fifty. And a concentration check DC 24 to cast defensively (13 from skill, +4 from 18 Con (Bear's endurance + base 14) gives a 50/50). The will save is the sticking point. 19 at base. Spell focus and Greater Spell Focus for +2. A 24 (18 at start, 2 ASI, Owl's Wisdom ahead of time) Wis is another +7. DC 28? The balor has an OK chance of failing that. The real sticking point is being able to go before the balor. 20 dex (16 to start, cat's grace) for +5 isn't gonna cut it. But improved initiative will make up the difference, mostly. It'll be +11 vs +9.

So you need to make like... 5 50/50s, about. But it "Can" be done at level 9, or even lower. The necessary scrolls "Could" be bought by a level 4 character. But their odds would be much worse, with a much lower chance of succeeding casting defensively, casting any of the spells, and having only 3 feats (assuming human). For good odds, going up a few more levels would allow you to buy a +6 wis item, possibly a +1 CL ioun stone, and pick up a few more useful feats. But all in all, this seems like an OK way to pull it off in only core.

[Calthropstu]

That sounds like quite a lot of stuff to do in one round. And if you can't do it all in a single round, what would keep the Balor from just teleporting out of the pit?

You can't teleport out of a pit spell because it is an extra dimensional space.

[Maat Mons]

You can turn the 50/50s for scroll activation and overcoming spell resistance into guaranteed successes with the Arcane Mastery feat (Complete Arcane). The feat not only lets you take 10 on caster level checks, but also (per the errata) do so in combat.

The 50/50 for Concentration can be turned into a guaranteed success with the Steady Concentration feat (Races of Stone).

[Evoker]

You can turn the 50/50s for scroll activation and overcoming spell resistance into guaranteed successes with the Arcane Mastery feat (Complete Arcane). The feat not only lets you take 10 on caster level checks, but also (per the errata) do so in combat.

The 50/50 for Concentration can be turned into a guaranteed success with the Steady Concentration feat (Races of Stone).

I was sticking to SRD core only with my answer, for some extra challange and to differentiate my answers. Clearly, there's many other options with more books, as have been proposed by other posters. But that arcane mastery feat is pretty nice, as it completely invalidates "level appropriate" spell resistance with the help of spell penetration and possibly greater spell penetration. Anything that can turn a 50/50, or even a 25/75 chance of losing your action to SR into a 0% is pretty nice, and easily guaranteeing casting scrolls 9 levels higher than you are is a nice extra perk.

[Endarire]

Even "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu" for a wish or few at level 1 is doable, regardless of Pun-Pun.

[Sinner's Garden]

It's also both a decidedly uninteresting response ("make somebody else solve it for me!") in the tactical sense and completely insane ("Gandalf turned to evil because he was too lazy!") in the strategic one.

[Firechanter]

You can't teleport out of a pit spell because it is an extra dimensional space.

Oh, does it count as EDS then. Okay, then it's worth thinking about optimizing Save DC so the Balrog won't just Reflex+17 out of it. ^^

[Kaleph]

What about wings of flurry + circle magic? I'm AFB, but possibly a wizard 5 / red wizard of thai 5 / shadowcraft mage 3 could work (being a wizard specialized in illusion, and affiluated to the illusion "sect" of the red wizard should fulfill the alternate entry requirements for non-gnomes).

[Psyren]

Is there a good defense against his at-will Blasphemy?

A silence effect automatically beats that, though of course it could interfere with your own casting.

[tyckspoon]

A silence effect automatically beats that, though of course it could interfere with your own casting.

'Be Evil' is of course the easy answer, and clearly the best from an optimization standpoint, as it both requires no build resources to do and opens up a few potentially useful things (like using Vile feats, there's some pretty choice effects you can snag there that are either difficult or very expensive to get otherwise.)

[upho]

Since balors are pretty basic brutes and AFAIK therefore also far more easily taken out by high-op martial types than casters in PF, does "Gandalf" really have to be based on the wizard class which is poorly suited for the PF version of this challenge?

For example, if he can be something as seemingly basic as a human straight fighter, he could reliably one-shot several balors as long as they can be within a 35' radius centered on (Large size) "Gandalf's" position at the end of his charge in his opening turn*. At 9th level (assuming PF's WBL guidelines which says a PC with multiple crafting feats should have an effective WBL increased by 50%).

*The balors won't die in the first round, but they'll be cowering for an average of about 8 rounds. So they'll drop their weapons and be unable to do jack. Of course, this "Gandalf" can simply keep scaring the crap out of them at his leisure during those rounds to prolong the cowering duration up to at least up to an hour.

[el minster]

Why dont you just trip it to disable the wings and have an item with dimensional anchor to stop the teleport?

[Gauntlet]

An evil caster can take down a Balor from around level 6 or so. Wizard 5 / Tainted Scholar 1 with a Con of 21 or more can have a Corruption of 82, which puts his save DCs at around 51 + spell level. If the character has the evil subtype or is undead, you can keep going into arbitrarily high numbers.

If you take Arcane Mastery and Spell Penetration for feats, you can cast Assay SR and take 10 on the caster level check for a total of 28, letting you tag him with a Phantasmal Killer for lethal unless he nat 20s one of his saves. You could spend some of your WBL on Barbs of Retribution to make him reroll a save, if you play a dragonblood race or go Sorcerer rather than Wizard. The only other item you need is a +2 Con item.

[Calthropstu]

Oh, does it count as EDS then. Okay, then it's worth thinking about optimizing Save DC so the Balrog won't just Reflex+17 out of it. ^^

I kinda figured it as given. Saving throw optimization is well established on the forums, I see little reason to rehash it. And I'm not up for doing a full build right now. Standard optimization can easily get this to at least a 50/50 shot of working. Even higher if we can manage some forced rerolls there (not too difficult actually).

[legomaster00156]

Historically, I suggest Shatter on the bridge. :smallbiggrin:

[upho]

quickened web + hungry pit. 6th lvl slots. So required level 11th. Bag of holding, enlarged to huge size opening.Place opening over pit, dispel pit forcing balor into bag, dropping bag into portable hole. Balor is destroyed.I kinda like the creative thinking here, but assuming this is PF (as there's no hungry pit in 3.5 IIRC), I don't understand how "Calthrondalf" deals with the following:

Web has zero (immediate) effect on a creature which makes the Ref save. How is Calthrondalf increasing the DC from 12 + Int mod to 37 (for the max 95% success chance vs a balor) at 11th? (Easy in 3.5, but not in PF AFAIK.)
How does Calthrondalf increase the Ref save DC of his hungry pit to 35 (if the balor is grappled by his web)?
A balor weighs 4,500 lbs., while the capacity of the largest (type IV) bag of holding is 1,500 lbs.. How does Calthrondalf increase bag's capacity?
How does Calthrondalf get the opening large enough to be able simply drop the bag over a balor with a natural reach radius of 15' (much larger than a "huge size opening")?
Does web even work on creatures with the Flaming Body SQ? (Web says: "The strands of a web spell are flammable. A flaming weapon can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs. Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away one 5-foot square in 1 round." and Flaming body says: "A balor’s body is covered in dancing flames. Anyone striking a balor with a natural weapon or unarmed strike takes 1d6 points of fire damage. A creature that grapples a balor or is grappled by one takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round the grapple persists.")

What am I missing here?

EDIT: And why the portable hole? Seems Calthrondalf can simply poke the bag of holding with Glamdring to destroy the balor: "If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever."

AFAIK, the balor has no abilities able to save it from "being lost forever"... :smalltongue: /EDIT

[Calthropstu]

I kinda like the creative thinking here, but assuming this is PF (as there's no hungry pit in 3.5 IIRC), I don't understand how "Calthrondalf" deals with the following:

Web has zero (immediate) effect on a creature which makes the Ref save. How is Calthrondalf increasing the DC from 12 + Int mod to 37 (for the max 95% success chance vs a balor) at 11th? (Easy in 3.5, but not in PF AFAIK.)
How does Calthrondalf increase the Ref save DC of his hungry pit to 35 (if the balor is grappled by his web)?
A balor weighs 4,500 lbs., while the capacity of the largest (type IV) bag of holding is 1,500 lbs.. How does Calthrondalf increase bag's capacity?
How does Calthrondalf get the opening large enough to be able simply drop the bag over a balor with a natural reach radius of 15' (much larger than a "huge size opening")?
Does web even work on creatures with the Flaming Body SQ? (Web says: "The strands of a web spell are flammable. A flaming weapon can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs. Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away one 5-foot square in 1 round." and Flaming body says: "A balor’s body is covered in dancing flames. Anyone striking a balor with a natural weapon or unarmed strike takes 1d6 points of fire damage. A creature that grapples a balor or is grappled by one takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round the grapple persists.")

What am I missing here?

EDIT: And why the portable hole? Seems Calthrondalf can simply poke the bag of holding with Glamdring to destroy the balor: "If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever."

AFAIK, the balor has no abilities able to save it from "being lost forever"... :smalltongue: /EDIT

Hmmmm. These are some valid concerns. I was aiming more for a 50/50 chance of success so a ref of 28 for the web (more than doable if you pump your casting stat to 32+ which is easily attainable then pump with items/feats) and 31 for the pit.
Hungry Pit is 100 feet deep, balor has reach of 10 feet (Balors are only large). The whole purpose of web is to prevent wing deployment so he falls the full depth. He's not reaching you. The web only needs to be there the length of the fall.

The bag width is easily overcome by enlarge person before combat. You can also, when ordering the bag, have the bag itself enlarged for this purpose without changing the magic effect.

The weight issue is much more troublesome. It requires a solution of quickened reduce monster which now opens up SR. At only 11th level, it will be difficult to optimize for both DC AND SR. Especially when you're starting at needing a nat 20. I chose web and hungry pit because both are SR: NO. I suppose you could order a specialized magic bag that was specifically for this, increasing the weight capacity... but we're likely getting into a price range of : NO.

Derp. Just use the portable hole instead, with the enlarge person cast to increase the size of the hole. Bam. No weight accumulation.

[Firechanter]

Problem with Silence vs Power Word Stun is that it's not enough if you can't hear it, the Balor cannot be allowed to _say_ it. If you just cast Silence in the general area of the Balor or on yourself, he can just fly out of range and then use his powers; if you cast it on the demon itself, both Spell Resistance and Will Save apply.


Since balors are pretty basic brutes and AFAIK therefore also far more easily taken out by high-op martial types than casters in PF, does "Gandalf" really have to be based on the wizard class which is poorly suited for the PF version of this challenge?

Purely damage-wise, a Balor is trivial to kill in one or (at lower levels) 2 rounds, yes. But there's still the at-will Power Word Stun, against which most characters won't be immune until very high levels. There are some specific immunities (such as a Paladin 17's immunity to Compulsion), otherwise you need to work with something like Silence grenades or whatever.


For example, if he can be something as seemingly basic as a human straight fighter, he could reliably one-shot several balors as long as they can be within a 35' radius centered on (Large size) "Gandalf's" position at the end of his charge in his opening turn*

That sounds interesting, please be verbose - how do you fear-stack to "Cowering" in PF? I'm assuming it would be some Charge special?

[Efrate]

There is a 7th level eternal guardian maneuver that goes straight to cowering for one round, will negates and you have to hit it. That's the only instacower I know but I am sure you can stack enough fear effects to get to panicked, not sure how to go to cower though when there is a way away, so that would need to be dealt with first.

[Kurald Galain]

Power Word Stun is a compulsion effect, meaning Protection From Evil blocks it. You can get a permanent PFE from Mind Buttressing armor, or a pre-errata Clear Spindle.

Also, the wyrwood race is immune to mind-affecting effects, since they're constructs.

[Firechanter]

Well I can't claim to be an expert with PF fearmongers; so far the best I am aware of is 1 level of Rogue(Thug) that allows you to trade 5 rounds of Shaken for 1 round of Frightened.

As for PWS: unfortunately Prot from Evil only works in 3.5; in PF it has been nerfed to afford only a bonus to saves, so no luck when no save is allowed to begin with.
Which is doubly tragic as in 3.5 there are also other countermeasures against Stun (such as Third Eye Clarity), but no such equipment in PF (as far as I am aware).

[Kurald Galain]

As for PWS: unfortunately Prot from Evil only works in 3.5; in PF it has been nerfed to afford only a bonus to saves

"While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target." (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protection-from-evil/). So yes, that still works in PF; no nerf here.

[upho]

Hmmmm. These are some valid concerns. I was aiming more for a 50/50 chance of success so a ref of 28 for the web (more than doable if you pump your casting stat to 32+ which is easily attainable then pump with items/feats) and 31 for the pit.Aha.

First, I was kinda thinking of the fact that a 50/50 on one save is AFAICT likely to end up something like a 13,75% total success chance in this case. 'Cause I believe Calthrondalf will need at the very least another round to place the bag/hole over the pit after the balor has fallen into it in the opening round. Meaning the balor also gets to save against the grapple during its own turn (albeit with a +1 to the DC of this second save using a tanglefoot bag as a power component), so the balor needs to fail three saves in total (a 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.55 total success chance for Calthrondalf). For a total success chance of at least 50%, the DC of all three saves probably needs to be at least 34 (80% success chance). Which even assuming an Int of 32 seems impossible at 11th.

Second, I actually don't see how an Int of 32+ is "easily attainable" at 11th level. AFAIK, even assuming a very friendly GM or an extremely lucky roll for a +2 Int aasimar Variant Ability, before items or spell shenanigans Calthrondalf can "only" have a maximum Int of 24 at 11th. Where does he get the additional +8 or (more likely) +10 from?


Hungry Pit is 100 feet deep, balor has reach of 10 feet (Balors are only large). The whole purpose of web is to prevent wing deployment so he falls the full depth. He's not reaching you. The web only needs to be there the length of the fall.The issue isn't the pit, it's the bag. And yes, balors are Large and have a 10' reach, which equals a total 15' natural reach radius (centered on the balor). Which in turn means that unless you're able to tie up the balor or somehow force it into the bag, I'd assume the opening needs a diameter of at least 30'. Not to mention that the extradimensional space inside likely needs to have at least a 10' diameter up to a depth of at least 14', which is a whopping 56 times greater volume than the max 250 cubic feet the largest bag can contain.

But yeah, the rules are of course lacking here, so I guess there might be some extrapolation allowing for say a 15 x 15 opening to be enough.


The bag width is easily overcome by enlarge person before combat. You can also, when ordering the bag, have the bag itself enlarged for this purpose without changing the magic effect.This might help a bit, though regardless of the size of the opening, Calthrondalf needs to place that opening so that it can freely fall down over a balor (which isn't much constrained by the web, if at all). Seems it needs to be attached to something like a great 35' diameter hoop holding it open and making certain it's not getting caught on the balor's many unrestrained limbs. Which in turn makes very clunky to carry for Calthrondalf.


The weight issue is much more troublesome. It requires a solution of quickened reduce monster which now opens up SR. At only 11th level, it will be difficult to optimize for both DC AND SR. Especially when you're starting at needing a nat 20. I chose web and hungry pit because both are SR: NO. I suppose you could order a specialized magic bag that was specifically for this, increasing the weight capacity... but we're likely getting into a price range of : NO.Actually, once I re-read the quote on bags of holding I posted, I think surpassing the weight limit might just be perfect for this:

"If a bag of holding is overloaded... ...the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever."

So if Calthrondalf can just get the darn balor into the bag somehow, it goes poof! :smalltongue:


Derp. Just use the portable hole instead, with the enlarge person cast to increase the size of the hole. Bam. No weight accumulation.

When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This is even more problematic AFAICT, for much the same reasons, since the hole's extradimensional space is merely two adjacent 5' cubes. A balor is again 14' tall and AFAICT won't go easily into any space smaller than 108 such 5' cubes (6 x 6 x 3), or possibly a minimum of 27 cubes (3 x 3 x 3).

[Calthropstu]

Aha.

First, I was kinda thinking of the fact that a 50/50 on one save is AFAICT likely to end up something like a 13,75% total success chance in this case. 'Cause I believe Calthrondalf will need at the very least another round to place the bag/hole over the pit after the balor has fallen into it in the opening round. Meaning the balor also gets to save against the grapple during its own turn (albeit with a +1 to the DC of this second save using a tanglefoot bag as a power component), so the balor needs to fail three saves in total (a 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.55 total success chance for Calthrondalf). For a total success chance of at least 50%, the DC of all three saves probably needs to be at least 34 (80% success chance). Which even assuming an Int of 32 seems impossible at 11th.

Second, I actually don't see how an Int of 32+ is "easily attainable" at 11th level. AFAIK, even assuming a very friendly GM or an extremely lucky roll for a +2 Int aasimar Variant Ability, before items or spell shenanigans Calthrondalf can "only" have a maximum Int of 24 at 11th. Where does he get the additional +8 or (more likely) +10 from?

The issue isn't the pit, it's the bag. And yes, balors are Large and have a 10' reach, which equals a total 15' natural reach radius (centered on the balor). Which in turn means that unless you're able to tie up the balor or somehow force it into the bag, I'd assume the opening needs a diameter of at least 30'. Not to mention that the extradimensional space inside likely needs to have at least a 10' diameter up to a depth of at least 14', which is a whopping 56 times greater volume than the max 250 cubic feet the largest bag can contain.

But yeah, the rules are of course lacking here, so I guess there might be some extrapolation allowing for say a 15 x 15 opening to be enough.

This might help a bit, though regardless of the size of the opening, Calthrondalf needs to place that opening so that it can freely fall down over a balor (which isn't much constrained by the web, if at all). Seems it needs to be attached to something like a great 35' diameter hoop holding it open and making certain it's not getting caught on the balor's many unrestrained limbs. Which in turn makes very clunky to carry for Calthrondalf.

Actually, once I re-read the quote on bags of holding I posted, I think surpassing the weight limit might just be perfect for this:

"If a bag of holding is overloaded... ...the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever."

So if Calthrondalf can just get the darn balor into the bag somehow, it goes poof! :smalltongue:

This is even more problematic AFAICT, for much the same reasons, since the hole's extradimensional space is merely two adjacent 5' cubes. A balor is again 14' tall and AFAICT won't go easily into any space smaller than 108 such 5' cubes (6 x 6 x 3), or possibly a minimum of 27 cubes (3 x 3 x 3).

When you dismiss the pit, the entity(ies) in the pit are simply placed above where the pit was... which means in the bag. Since the bag is not (technically) a hostile environment there are no "displace to nearest sustainable space" shenanigans. As long as you can cover the diameter of the hole, you're golden. Good point about the bag, so as long as it covers the entrance, we are good.

There needs to be only 2 saves (he doesn't need to be grappled on the second turn, just the first), which sets it to around 25%. But when forced rerolls come into play (I believe you can snag 2 of them at 11th) it puts it back to 50%.

[upho]

Purely damage-wise, a Balor is trivial to kill in one or (at lower levels) 2 rounds, yes. But there's still the at-will Power Word Stun, against which most characters won't be immune until very high levels. There are some specific immunities (such as a Paladin 17's immunity to Compulsion), otherwise you need to work with something like Silence grenades or whatever.Or simply pull out all the stops and go all-out crazy bananas on the offense before the balor can act, and hope it'll be enough... :smallbiggrin:


That sounds interesting, please be verbose - how do you fear-stack to "Cowering" in PF? I'm assuming it would be some Charge special?Note really, though the charge does often help a bit for the "Grand AoE" version of this. Here's the most basic Str based melee combo, for up to panicked:

Cornugon Smash free action demoralize when dealing damage using Power Attack
Intimidating Prowess adds Str mod to Intimidate checks
Soulless Gaze (and another Damnation feat, like Fiendskin) stack demoralizing fear effects up to panicked
High Intimidate of course (DC = 10 + foe's HD + foe's Wis mod, +4 if larger size)

The "Grand AoE" version I referred to in my previous post demands tons of feats, and is therefore typically only attainable by fighters (who also need fewer feats) before 13th or so. It includes in this case:

Intimidating Prowess see above
Soulless Gaze (and another Damnation feat, like Fiendskin) see above
Dazzling Display (and Weapon Focus) feat tax for awful full-round demoralization of foes in 30', never to be used by itself
Hero's Display demoralize foes in 30' on successful PCC (performance combat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/performance-combat/) check)
Awe-Inspiring Smash makes PCCs Str checks instead of Cha checks
Performing Combatant make PCCs vs DC 20 in all kinds of combat (not just performance combat)
Master Combat Performer make PCCs as free action instead of swift
Disheartening Display Dazzling Display makes panicked enemies in 30' cowering
Advanced Weapon Training (dazzling intimidation) use Dazzling Display as standard instead of full-round (and adds fighter's weapon training bonus to Intimidate)
Scroll of Contingent Action (and sufficient UMD) allows for using Dazzling Display as a free action
Dirty Fighting & Improved & Trip or Reposition Carefree combat maneuvering for additional PCCs
VMC barbarian for rage and additional PCCs
+1 Dueling (PSFG) Furious Leveraging Reach Weapon for massive bonuses to trip and reposition and a melee reach as great as that of a balor
Advanced Weapon Training (warrior spirit) adds in this case +3 enhancement and bane (evil outsiders) for 1 minute (no action), for a total +8 enhancement vs the balor, and a whopping +16 enhancement and +32 luck bonus to trip and reposition (the PF balor's CMD is 54)
Perform (act) 6+ ranks +2 to PCCs
Crackling tassel +4 to PCCs, succeed on a roll of 1
Max Intimidate + elixir of the thundering voice + enlarge person demoralize balor on a roll of 1.

Together, these things grants a 9th level fighter at least the following actions/events to trigger free action 30' stacking demoralization in the first round:

Start rage PCC and Hero's Display make balors shaken
Charge hit PCC and Hero's Display make balors frightened
Successful Combat Maneuver PCC and Hero's Display make balors panicked
Contingent Action Dazzling Display with Disheartening Display makes balors cowering
Laugh as the balors are completely neutralized

This fighter could have a higher initiative than the balor as well.

[upho]

When you dismiss the pit, the entity(ies) in the pit are simply placed above where the pit was... which means in the bag. Since the bag is not (technically) a hostile environment there are no "displace to nearest sustainable space" shenanigans. As long as you can cover the diameter of the hole, you're golden.Oh, of course, I somehow managed to forget that. :smallredface:

That certainly removes a lot of the issues with the opening I mentioned. But I believe there's still the issue with getting it in place before the balor takes its first turn. Especially since I realize that what I wrote about the DC of the second save vs web being potentially higher doesn't really matter, since the balor can make a CMB check with a +33 bonus to break free as a standard. So how does Calthrondalf also manage to get the bag in place during his first turn, after having spent at the very least his swift and standard on casting spells from a safe distance?


Good point about the bag, so as long as it covers the entrance, we are good.

There needs to be only 2 saves (he doesn't need to be grappled on the second turn, just the first), which sets it to around 25%. But when forced rerolls come into play (I believe you can snag 2 of them at 11th) it puts it back to 50%.Yeah, if there's a solution to the action problem so everything can be done in the first turn, and if Calthrondalf's Int can actually be boosted to 32, I think the total success chance of the spells shouldn't be too difficult to get up to 50%.

After that, I believe there's only the balor's initiative which might bring down the total success chance. But I'm afraid the only thing I can think of is adding a training (Improved Initiative) AoMF for 4k to the "standard" +14 or so (from familiar, heightened awareness, divination school, dusty rose prism and Dex with cat's grace).

[Calthropstu]

Oh, of course, I somehow managed to forget that. :smallredface:

That certainly removes a lot of the issues with the opening I mentioned. But I believe there's still the issue with getting it in place before the balor takes its first turn. Especially since I realize that what I wrote about the DC of the second save vs web being potentially higher doesn't really matter, since the balor can make a CMB check with a +33 bonus to break free as a standard. So how does Calthrondalf also manage to get the bag in place during his first turn, after having spent at the very least his swift and standard on casting spells from a safe distance?

Yeah, if there's a solution to the action problem so everything can be done in the first turn, and if Calthrondalf's Int can actually be boosted to 32, I think the total success chance of the spells shouldn't be too difficult to get up to 50%.

After that, I believe there's only the balor's initiative which might bring down the total success chance. But I'm afraid the only thing I can think of is adding a training (Improved Initiative) AoMF for 4k to the "standard" +14 or so (from familiar, heightened awareness, divination school, dusty rose prism and Dex with cat's grace).

Starting int: 20.
+2 from level.
+6 item.
+2 from bound succubus.
+5 from efreet wish spam via planar binding.
+2 sacred from item.
Final total: 37 for a +13 to save DCs.

[upho]

Starting int: 20.
+2 from level.
+6 item.
+2 from bound succubus.
+5 from efreet wish spam via planar binding.
+2 sacred from item.
Final total: 37 for a +13 to save DCs.I thought at least wish-spamming would fall into the "stupid cheese"-category not allowed according to the OP. But if such shenanigans are fair game, it shouldn't be hard to get the success chance above 50%.

Adding spell focus feats, traits-discounted heighten of web to 4th, an orange prism and a persistent rod, the total spell success chance becomes approx. 70%. Which should be enough even with a far from certain initiative win. So I guess the only minor challenge left is getting a minion able to rush in with the sack at the same initiative count. Familiar?

If this trick can be made to work at least somewhat reliably without wish shenanigans at least before 14th or so, I'll consider halving the price on bags of holding in my games simply to encourage the PCs to go for the "overloaded extra-dimensional bagging"-method to forever lose the greatest and most pressing "problems". It's just too hilarious to not be a thing...

[Calthropstu]

I thought at least wish-spamming would fall into the "stupid cheese"-category not allowed according to the OP. But if such shenanigans are fair game, it shouldn't be hard to get the success chance above 50%.

Adding spell focus feats, traits-discounted heighten of web to 4th, an orange prism and a persistent rod, the total spell success chance becomes approx. 70%. Which should be enough even with a far from certain initiative win. So I guess the only minor challenge left is getting a minion able to rush in with the sack at the same initiative count. Familiar?

If this trick can be made to work at least somewhat reliably without wish shenanigans at least before 14th or so, I'll consider halving the price on bags of holding in my games simply to encourage the PCs to go for the "overloaded extra-dimensional bagging"-method to forever lose the greatest and most pressing "problems". It's just too hilarious to not be a thing...

Even without the wish spamming, that's only 2 less. And I don't really see a +5 int as true cheese. You're just getting it a little early is all. Instead of buying a +5 book, you're spamming a dangerous spell. Especially for a wizard which cha is its dump stat

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Purely damage-wise, a Balor is trivial to kill in one or (at lower levels) 2 rounds, yes. But there's still the at-will Power Word Stun, against which most characters won't be immune until very high levels. There are some specific immunities (such as a Paladin 17's immunity to Compulsion), otherwise you need to work with something like Silence grenades or whatever.

With Dragon Magazine, a Ranger can grab immunity to mind-affecting at level 11 via the third Moon Warded Ranger ACF. Combined with dual-wielding lances (Oversized TWF + Two Weapon Pounce), a mount that's also immune (Equine Golem, perhaps?), and the standard Power Attack optimization, and I think you've got solid odds of a one round kill.

Without Dragon Magazine, I saw a thread yesterday about combining the Feign Death ACF with a psionic power that lets you puppet your own body as a method of becoming immune to mind-affecting (among a lot of other conditions).

[Zanos]

With Dragon Magazine, a Ranger can grab immunity to mind-affecting at level 11 via the third Moon Warded Ranger ACF. Combined with dual-wielding lances (Oversized TWF + Two Weapon Pounce), a mount that's also immune (Equine Golem, perhaps?), and the standard Power Attack optimization, and I think you've got solid odds of a one round kill.

Without Dragon Magazine, I saw a thread yesterday about combining the Feign Death ACF with a psionic power that lets you puppet your own body as a method of becoming immune to mind-affecting (among a lot of other conditions).
You need blasphemy countermeasures or initiative optimization if you want to fight it personally at low levels. At will blasphemy means anything with 15 or less HD is paralyzed for 1d10 minutes if the Balor goes first. Even if you're 20th level the Balor can still blasphemy you to daze and then Quickened Telekinesis 3 times a day while closing to melee range.

I suppose you could always just be Evil and then he can't blasphemy you. :smallcool:

[Firechanter]

Akshually, I wonder if Freedom of Movement doesn't make you immune to Daze and Stun anyway. I know this question must have been discussed a million times, and the general paradigm seems to be "no", but it _does_ say
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web.

Daze and Stun impede your ability to move and attack normally.
The phrase "such as" clearly indicates that the examples given are not exhaustive.

BTW thanks for the pointer about PF Prot from Evil; it's so well hidden in the flow text that I missed it all the time. :p

[Zombimode]

Thats a difference between cause and effect. That you can't move while stunned is an effect from being mentally inable to act. Freedom of Movement lets you ignore things that directly impede movement. The name of the spell, its description and all example make that clear. Stun (and Daze) does not directly impede movement, it impedes your mental faculties such that, amonst other thing, you are unable to move.

[upho]

Even without the wish spamming, that's only 2 less. And I don't really see a +5 int as true cheese. You're just getting it a little early is all. Instead of buying a +5 book, you're spamming a dangerous spell. Especially for a wizard which cha is its dump statWell, I kinda agree about binding for +5 inherent at 11th doesn't exactly come close to the max on the proverbial cheese-o-meter. But on the other hand, I guess a more harsh interpretation of the guidelines for this challenge would also rule out succubus kisses and maybe even (I assume) the campaign-/story-specific righteous medals. And of course also Damnation feats, which the demoralization fighter I mentioned would need.

But looking at the DC boost possibilities more seriously, I don't believe the binding related Int boosts are actually needed in this case; a more modest Int of 30 would do just fine with some additional DC boosters from other sources. For example, adding +2 potent magic (Exploiter Wizard), +1 Damned, and Additional Traits for +1 Lore Seeker and +2 Eastern Mysteries (web) to the mentioned spell focus feats, traits-discounted heighten and metamagic rod could result in DC 31* (worst of two save rolls) for both spells. This adds up to a total spell success chance of 77%, which in turn means the initiative win probability must "only" be a rather manageable 65% for a total 50% success chance.
*Web 10 + 10 Int, 2 spell lvl, 2 potent magic, 2 spell focus feats, 1 Damned, 1 heighten (Magical Lineage), 1 Lore Seeker, 2 Eastern Mysteries
Hungry pit 10 + 10 Int, 5 spell lvl, 2 potent magic, 2 spell focus feats, 1 Damned, 1 heighten (Wayang Spellhunter), 1 Lore Seeker


You need blasphemy countermeasures or initiative optimization if you want to fight it personally at low levels. At will blasphemy means anything with 15 or less HD is paralyzed for 1d10 minutes if the Balor goes first. Even if you're 20th level the Balor can still blasphemy you to daze and then Quickened Telekinesis 3 times a day while closing to melee range.This.

Especially when it comes to beating a single dangerous foe, virtually regardless of build level and the class(es) involved, prioritizing passive defenses is practically never even remotely as effective as prioritizing one-shot offense and going first (or active defenses in a few rare cases). I'm certain none of the lowest level wizard builds with at least a 50% success chance in this challenge we could come up with would even consider the option of increasing their chances of surviving the balor going first.


I suppose you could always just be Evil and then he can't blasphemy you. :smallcool:Yeah. And it still won't save any lower level version of Gandalf from losing if the balor can take a turn's worth of offensive actions.