Paladin build

[Maan]

New campaign and I'm thinking about a v. Human Devotion Paladin. While Vengeance is tempting, I find Devotion is more well-rounded and versatile. Also, I like having good defenses and group support, and there will be some players/characters turnover in the game, so I can't rely on a certain group composition.

Stats should be like this: either Str 16, Dex 8, Cos 15, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 16; or Str 16, Dex 10, Cos 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.
I will use the second one, if I decide I won' be taking Resilient (Con).
And I probably won't, I plan of taking a single Divine Soul Sorcerer level straight at level 2: four cantrips to shape a theme I have in mind (+ a ranged attack cantrip and Guidance), Bless, Shield and Absorb Elements. And Favoured by the Gods is going to make proficiency in Con Saves much less of a priority.

I want to go with two handed weapon + plate.
Now I'm in doubt: what's best, Great Weapon Master or Polearm Master?
The first can rack up quite some damage but will pretty much force me to invest more heavily in Str to keep a good chance to hit; the second gives me more chances to use Bonus Actions and Reactions (I won't have a lot to do with those, otherwise) but could also benefit from GWM, and Sentinel.

Any help planning ASIs for the build, pretty please?

[Spore]

Polearm Master + Sentinel is a very nice thing to protect others (I'd pair it with Defense style because enemies locked down by you are likely to attack you), but Great Weapon Master is a powerful idea for a reason.

However if you like good defense, go for Polearm Master + Sentinel. There is also an argument made for Warcaster plus Sword and Board plus the Blessed Warrior (UA) Fighting Style. But then I feel you're better off going for a cleric anyhow if you want to go defensive spellcaster support.

[Tes]

PAM first is going to matter more. GWM doesn't do much until you can generate Advantage/+Hit reliably.
At lvl 1 PAM is Reach, reliable use for your Reaction and Bonus Action vs potential overkill/miss for GWM and occasional use for your Bonus Action.
PAM also has pretty huge synergy with Sentinel and you'll still want GWM and max STR on top. Don't expect to max your CHA unless you find a Magic item boosting your STR.

GWM with a Greatsword/Maul is less of a Feat investment (+GWM +2STR +2STR), allows to max your main stat early and your Charisma late. Also can pick up GWF for a noticeable damage boost with a 2D6 weapon. Hardly anyone ever talks about it over PAM + GWM + Sentinel shenanigans.


Depending on the role you want to fill and the party comp/GM (Flanking?) you're going to to cap out at 2-3 ASIs +VHuman in tier 3.
Personally I value PAM+Sentinel higher. The ability to reduce the damage of a nasty melee bruiser lacking Reach to 0/less deadly ranged option, is often worth more than GWM.
Res CON is a game changer as well. Even the humble Bless does wonders for your party and yourself in a somewhat tough fight. Aura + Bless + Res Con allows you to shake off even high DC control spells, lets you use Concentration Spells as a reliable resource rather than a gamble.

Stuff to consider about GWM:
Crits - autohits ignore the -5, and are more likely to kill and trigger a Bonus Attack, no extra damage from GWM though.
Smites and Improved Divine Smite are unimpressed by GWM, not hitting your attacks means you can't Smite and Improved Divine Smite is wasted.
Missing a crucial hit to finish off an opponent or just trigger a Concentration check is often more important than dealing absolute maximum damage in a single turn to a boss.
You're going to play for months with GWM at 16 or 18 STR instead of a +2STR ASI. For normal play the Feat really is -6/+9.
Depending on your other party member's level of optimization, you might be the obvious target for about everything if your DM plays encounters smart. Flat out damage usually targets AC or DEX, which you're easy enough to challenge on. Aside from ending up targeted by every control spell, grapple etc.
I'd assume picking up Sorcerer levels means you'll pick up Shield and Absorb elements to mitigate that.
That's going to delay your Paladin progression (ASIs, Extra Attack, Aura, Improved Divine Smite, Paladin Spells), which would make your Feat choices a bit tougher again.

[Maan]

...
What you say is confirming a feeling I had, though I never played a martial with any of these feats.

I guess PAM has several advantages: less reliant on increases in Str and surely more chances to attack; the latter seems also much more important for a Paladin, since every extra attack you get is another chance to crit (adding a Divine Smite on top) or to apply Improved Divine Smite later.
Also, I like the control/protection of PAM+Sentinel: it suits my concept for this character and, if I know the players I'll be playing with, I think the party will benefit from a good tank.

That single level from Divine Soul Sorcerer is going to help with Shield + Absorb Elements + 2d4 to a Save when needed, but honestly I'm taking it more because of the character concept I have in mind.

Speaking about ASIs, how would you do it?
For the variant Human bonus feat, I'd say Polearm Master will be the choice.
Then I'll have 5 ASIs (each 1 level later: not optimal, I know, but I think I can live with it). I'd like to squeeze in Sentinel; not sure at all about Resilient (Con) and even less about GWM.
But what would be a good order of priority?

[CTurbo]

I would do Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis, 10, Cha 16 and take PAM

Level 4 +2 Str
Level 8 +2 Cha
Level 12 +2 Str
Level 16 - I wouldn't plan this high from the start. By then there is no telling what feat/ASI you'll want.

I'd probably stay full class Pally, but a single level of Divine Soul Sorc does add some extra goodies.

[Tes]

What you say is confirming a feeling I had, though I never played a martial with any of these feats.

I guess PAM has several advantages: less reliant on increases in Str and surely more chances to attack; the latter seems also much more important for a Paladin, since every extra attack you get is another chance to crit (adding a Divine Smite on top) or to apply Improved Divine Smite later.
Also, I like the control/protection of PAM+Sentinel: it suits my concept for this character and, if I know the players I'll be playing with, I think the party will benefit from a good tank.

That single level from Divine Soul Sorcerer is going to help with Shield + Absorb Elements + 2d4 to a Save when needed, but honestly I'm taking it more because of the character concept I have in mind.

Speaking about ASIs, how would you do it?
For the variant Human bonus feat, I'd say Polearm Master will be the choice.
Then I'll have 5 ASIs (each 1 level later: not optimal, I know, but I think I can live with it). I'd like to squeeze in Sentinel; not sure at all about Resilient (Con) and even less about GWM.
But what would be a good order of priority?
Looking at the time IRL you'll be waiting on stuff I'd grab PAM at lvl 1 and Sentinel as your first Feat (LVL5).
That unlocks the "combo" to play with as early as possible.
You'll be level 9 by the time you get your second Feat, probably a long time off. By then you'll know if you want a boost to Concentration, got your hand on STR Belt/Gauntlets so you can raise Charisma for your Aura instead or maybe your campaign is outdoors/in large open spaces and Mounted Combatant is another option.

[Maan]

Waiting and see what happens looks like sound advice. After all, I don't even know how the GM will handle magic items and how other people will develop their characters.

Anyway, thank you everyone!
This has been really useful to help me make up my mind about this!

[Specter]

Wait, if you were interested in taking Resilient (CON) and now want to multiclass Sorcerer, why not take 1st level as Sorc and get the CON save proficiency with it?

[Lavaeolus]

Wait, if you were interested in taking Resilient (CON) and now want to multiclass Sorcerer, why not take 1st level as Sorc and get the CON save proficiency with it?

Most pertinent reason is needing a Paladin start to get heavy armor proficiency. Sorc->Paladin limits you to medium armor, unless you similarly take a feat (Heavily Armored) or obtain HA through some other method.

[Corran]

New campaign and I'm thinking about a v. Human Devotion Paladin

…

I plan of taking a single Divine Soul Sorcerer level straight at level 2: four cantrips to shape a theme I have in mind (+ a ranged attack cantrip and Guidance), Bless, Shield and Absorb Elements. And Favoured by the Gods is going to make proficiency in Con Saves much less of a priority.

I want to go with two handed weapon + plate.

...

Any help planning ASIs for the build, pretty please?
Generally, good feats/ASI's for a devotion paladin include (and are not limited) to the following:

+2 CHA
+2 STR
PAM
GWM
Sentinel
Resilient CON
Warcaster
Lucky
Mounted Combatant
Magic initiate (eg GFB, Firebolt, Absorb elements)
Inspiring leader
Alert


===================


Since you will be taking (exactly) 1 level in divine soul sorcerer, we can safely cross out magic initiate off that list.

Since devotion paladins don't get any staple or build defining concentration spells, like some other oaths do, and since the CD takes up an action which means that you'll often want to limit yourself to a bonus action concentration spell if at all, and since you'll already have favored by the gods from the ds sorc level, I think it's also safe to cross out the need of taking (or at least prioritizing) any concentration/ save boosting feats (resilient CON, lucky, warcaster). Fighting with a two hander also means that you don't have to take warcaster. All that said, I would consider lucky as a very late pick, though I am not sure if it would make the cut with so many other good choices.



Let's talk a bit about weapon damage. I am not a fan of GWM on devotion paladins, and 1 level in sorcerer is not enough to change my mind. The only things you've got going for it are bless and sacred weapon (which keys off CHA and not off STR, which is what you'll need to focus on if you pick up GWM), which both use an action to buff yourself, so that takes away actions from delivering your dpr. So will casting spells and using lay on hands (and dodging, dashing/ranged cantrip, grappling&shoving -you are a STR build after all, have a longsword as a backup weapon). And once you get IDS at paladin 11, that's another feature that plays against the -5/+10 aspect of the GWM. Generally, GWM requires a lot of investment to make a good use on a devotion paladin (STR bumps, probably mounted combatant, more sorcerer levels for quicken and sp to use it with). And with so many other useful options, I think it's not worth it to spend so many feats for such an increase to your dpr, especially when you can just use a cantrip (GFB) for a far more cost-effective dpr increase (at an average).

PAM is far more tempting than GWM in my opinion (it has diminishing returns because of GFB and because of the action non-attack options you have), especially once you get IDS (which has synergy with PAM, while it played bad with GWM). Plus PAM needs less support in order to be useful, as opposed to GWM. But with the option to use GFB (which will have powered up once you get IDS) at no feat cost, and with sanctuary as an option for your bonus action sometimes, I would probably stay clear of PAM too, and instead I would invest the feat in something else.

Sentinel can be used for dpr (via its reaction attack, which might trigger enough if you are fighting close to your buddies), and you don't need to spend your action to attack (ie attack action), as opposed with PAM and GWM. Your reaction will have some competition with options like shield and more rarely absorb elements on your list, but that a lot less harmful than having to commit to the attack action (plus, your slots, especially your 1st level slots, have tremendous competition, so a sentinel reaction attack is not that bad as far as diminishing returns go). It has also good synergy with IDS, which is why I would consider taking it at paladin 12. The other big thing about sentinel, is that it makes your OA's more threatening. Your OA's are already threatening (as long as you are willing to spend slots) cause you can smite with them, and usually OA's are a god time to smite, but sentinel improves them even more since it means that one enemy might be sticking to fight you instead of going after someone squishier. Usually it's either sentinel or warcaster + BB (which although softer, if you add a smite on top of it, it wont really matter if the enemy does get away from you sometimes, instead of if you were using sentinel to keep it close). But since you don't really need warcaster (cause two hander), sentinel is your go-to choice if you want to further boost your OA's and/or your dpr (by weaponizing your reaction), with the drawback that it adds competition to your reaction. Not 100% sold on it, but paladin 12 is a good point to take it, but which point you'll have a pretty good idea if you'll make good use of it or not (for example, I would take it if the group is melee heavy, and I wouldn't take it if I was the only tank, however counter-intuitive the latter may be). And since I talked a bit about OA's, adding warcaster just for BB as an OA is not worth it for this build imo, as a feat is too heavy a price just for that benefit for this particular build.



Mounted combatant is kind of ok, in that it helps you protect your mount (though you do have sanctuary, if for example you need to keep your mount alive because you really need the speed), and in that it helps you get advantage (good, but not crucial if you are not going with GWM -which I wouldn't go with-, especially since your CD can also boost your attack bonus). I'd probably skip it in favor of the other options.



Between STR bumps and CHA bumps, I prefer boosting cha for a devotion paladin. Though it's a close call. Since you are taking one sorcerer level, which means you have less incentive to focus on dpr feats cause you get GFB (cost effective dpr boost given your choices are fixed) almost for free (ie commit a cantrip instead of a feat), all this means that you'll end up a little lower on the dpr side on average (the upside is that you can spend your feats on other things), at least for the first half of your career. So that's a little added incentive to invest to CHA over STR (mainly want it for the aura, the CD, and for my DC on a few spells like wrathful smite).





So....
I think I would go with inspiring leader at level 1 (a common misconception is that it doesn't stack with aid, but it does), then with charisma bumps, and then I am not sure. Sentinel (avoid if you are tanking solo) and to a lesser extent PAM, are tempting once you get IDS (so at paladin 12 most likely). I might pick lucky earlier (even if it means delaying a charisma ASI) if I knew I'd be tanking mostly solo. Otherwise I might consider it for my last pick, but it has good competition from str bumps, whatever I didn't pick from PAM and sentinel and probably by mounted combatant or even alert.



For stats, I'd go with the following:
STR 16 (9 points)
DEX 10 (2 points)
CON 14 (7 points)
INT 8 (0 points)
WIS 8 (0 points)
CHA 16 (9 points)

You could put the 10 in INT or WIS instead, but given that INT saves are rare (and even with a 10 in INT, you are probably not the one to be picking and counting on INT skills), and given that you have proficiency in WIS saves, aura of protection (plus the fact that I would be prioritizing CHA to STR), and aura of warding (immunity to charm effects, which tend to target wisdom saves), I think I would prefer DEX for a boost to initiative and to DEX saves.

[Maan]

Wait, if you were interested in taking Resilient (CON) and now want to multiclass Sorcerer, why not take 1st level as Sorc and get the CON save proficiency with it?
I think Wisdom is more critical: Con is needed to mantain concentration (but I won't have that many concentration spells) and for some nasty saves, but a single failed Wis save can put you out of a fight! Also, Con bonus will be higher than Wis, so I can mitigate at least a bit with the Aura bonus.
And yes, plate armor, too.


Generally, good feats/ASI's for a devotion paladin include (and are not limited) to the following: [cut]
That's a really well thought up and in-depth explanation, thank you very much!

Just a few notes:
- SCAG is not going to be allowed, I forgot to mention this important point; so no GFB or BB.
- Lucky is probably going to be nerfed (down to 2 used, likely). Still tempting for its versatility, though I don't know if it's worth an ASI for this build.
- I didn't consider Mounted Combatant because the setting will be mostly urban. So I anticipate lots of "no, you can't take your mount inside that house. No, you can't take your mount down the creepy cellar".
- In general, I think dpr won't matter that much: the DM isn't much into combat-heavy games and generally more oriented toward roleplay. More tactical options are probably going to matter more than raw damage (so protecting squishies might be much more important).
- I think you're mixing up features from PAM and Sentinel? OA when enemies enter your reach are from the former (while Sentinel adds the facts that their speed drops to zero and they trigger OA even when using Disengage).

Anyway, I really enjoyed your advice, thank you again!

[Arkhios]

Actually, I would advise against taking a ranged attack cantrip as a paladin. You'll be spending most of your time in melee and that has a serious drawback in regards to making ranged attack rolls. Instead, especially since you thought about Divine Soul, take a cantrip that requires a saving throw from your target. For example, Sacred Flame. Casting a spell is no more difficult in melee as making a melee attack is, but making a ranged attack is made with disadvantage when an enemy is within 5 feet of you, regardless of who you target with it.

While you may be holding a polearm, your target might not, and you will eventually end up in 5 feet range as well (do note that moving away from a threatened square grants opportunity attack. That includes even moving just 5 feet away from your target).

[Corran]

- In general, I think dpr won't matter that much: the DM isn't much into combat-heavy games and generally more oriented toward roleplay. More tactical options are probably going to matter more than raw damage (so protecting squishies might be much more important).
Well, in that case you might want to consider going with a versatile weapon (you could consider swapping to a spear and PAM after your get IDS), so that you can leave the option of grappling open. I also like ray of frost, cause decreasing an enemy's movement can be a very nice rider if it means that the enemy wont get to make attack (or if the enemy's ranged attacks are much inferior to its melee attacks). Has a smaller range than your typical ranged cantrip however.

Edit: Thunderous smite is also a spell you might want to keep prepared. Can send someone flying into hazardous terrain, or it might even be enough to deny a melee enemy's turn in some cases. Situational, but it has some good uses every now and then.



- I think you're mixing up features from PAM and Sentinel? OA when enemies enter your reach are from the former (while Sentinel adds the facts that their speed drops to zero and they trigger OA even when using Disengage).
Sentinel has a third clause, which allows you to make a melee attack with your reaction against an enemy (within 5' of you) who attacks an ally of yours. It can be a more reliable use of your reaction (potentially better than PAM in that respect) if your character is often fighting next to someone else's, and with your auras, that wont be an unlikely scenario, at least if you are not the only melee (non hit-and-run) character.




Actually, I would advise against taking a ranged attack cantrip as a paladin. You'll be spending most of your time in melee and that has a serious drawback in regards to making ranged attack rolls.
But when you are in melee already, you don't really need to count on your ranged cantrip since you can just attack with your weapon. You generally want the ranged cantrip just so that you can fall back to a ranged option when you cannot or do not want to go into melee. Not that selecting a non-attack ranged cantrip is bad somehow (one could argue it's good if not all of your attacks target the same defense, AC in this case). But IME it's far more often because of other reasons that I will fall back to ranged attacks on a primarily melee character, and not just because I want to target another defense. Extra points for a devotion paladin who can (if they have not already used their CD) to turn their weapon into a magic one and up their to-hit bonus at the same time.

[Arkhios]

But when you are in melee already, you don't really need to count on your ranged cantrip since you can just attack with your weapon. You generally want the ranged cantrip just so that you can fall back to a ranged option when you cannot or do not want to go into melee. Not that selecting a non-attack ranged cantrip is bad somehow (one could argue it's good if not all of your attacks target the same defense, AC in this case). But IME it's far more often because of other reasons that I will fall back to ranged attacks on a primarily melee character, and not just because I want to target another defense. Extra points for a devotion paladin who can (if they have not already used their CD) to turn their weapon into a magic one and up their to-hit bonus at the same time.

I see it differently, I suppose. With how limited amount of cantrips you can have, I'd pay attention to more utility with just one choice (even if you have more than one to know). There may be a time when you are stuck in melee, but there's a life or death situation and you have to attack another target because of it, but risking an opportunity attack or taking disengage is out of question, having a ranged damage option that can get through without the disadvantage of a ranged attack roll, you could do it. The only downside (really) is that you can't score a critical hit with it. In general, though, saving throws rarely rise so high that forcing the opponent to make it might even be better than an attack roll.

Keep in mind, in D&D, it's rarely just you against the world. There are other characters, and often more than just one target. Just as in real life, "always remember the +1" is one of the fundamental teachings of combat training, in just about any practice. Focusing on your chosen target and turning a blind eye to your surroundings can mean your or someone else's death in the worst case scenario.

[Corran]

I see it differently, I suppose. With how limited amount of cantrips you can have, I'd pay attention to more utility with just one choice (even if you have more than one to know). There may be a time when you are stuck in melee, but there's a life or death situation and you have to attack another target because of it, but risking an opportunity attack or taking disengage is out of question, having a ranged damage option that can get through without the disadvantage of a ranged attack roll, you could do it. The only downside (really) is that you can't score a critical hit with it. In general, though, saving throws rarely rise so high that forcing the opponent to make it might even be better than an attack roll.

Keep in mind, in D&D, it's rarely just you against the world. There are other characters, and often more than just one target. Just as in real life, "always remember the +1" is one of the fundamental teachings of combat training, in just about any practice. Focusing on your chosen target and turning a blind eye to your surroundings can mean your or someone else's death in the worst case scenario.
Hmm, I still think I would prefer the longer range (so that's why I would tend more towards something like firebolt or chill tough; probably chill touch so that I deal a less resisted damage type), but your argument does not make it such an easy and obvious choice anymore for me. And for the shorter range cantrips, I do have a soft spot for ray of frost, so there is clearly some bias from me here.

[Maan]

Actually I was considering Sacred Flame because of a theme I have in mind.
It does have some advantages though, like also the fact of ignoring cover.


Sentinel has a third clause, which allows you to make a melee attack with your reaction against an enemy (within 5' of you) who attacks an ally of yours. It can be a more reliable use of your reaction (potentially better than PAM in that respect) if your character is often fighting next to someone else's, and with your auras, that wont be an unlikely scenario, at least if you are not the only melee (non hit-and-run) character.
Uhm, true, I didn't consider that. Sound advice as always, sir.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This is going to go against just about all other advice I read on the subject, but Paladin aura is really good and there is nothing wrong with bumping your Cha after level 6. +4 or +5 to all saves for you and everyone around you (+8 or +10 to your Cha) changes the tactics available to a group.

[DevilMcam]

I am playing a High CHA, lowish STR paladin (conquest though but devotion ought to work as well) and I second the aura part.
The best part is when something try to cast Banishment or the likes on you "hum sure, i have a +15 Charisma save, what's your DC ... I guess I pass then"

High Charisma increase all your saves, your allies saves (including the precious concentration ones) and as a devotion paladin you can use your channel divinity to ad your CHA to your attack rolls.
If damage is not a priority I can only recommand maxing CHA first

[Maan]

Actually I think I'll likely prioritize Cha over Str, since the character is meant as a team player more than as a heavy damage dealer.
And anyway this build won't need to pump up the chances to hit as much as a GWM one. Also, there's always Sacred Weapon for when the need arises.

[Maan]

I'm in doubt about what to pick as Sorcerer spells: Shield I'm pretty sure, but now I'm torn between Absorb Elements and Healing Word.
Even with all the healing of a Paladin, I think an emergengy Bonus Action, ranged healing spell could save a few lives. Too situational to pick it over AE, maybe?

[LudicSavant]

New campaign and I'm thinking about a v. Human Devotion Paladin. While Vengeance is tempting, I find Devotion is more well-rounded and versatile. Also, I like having good defenses and group support, and there will be some players/characters turnover in the game, so I can't rely on a certain group composition.

Stats should be like this: either Str 16, Dex 8, Cos 15, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 16; or Str 16, Dex 10, Cos 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.
I will use the second one, if I decide I won' be taking Resilient (Con).
And I probably won't, I plan of taking a single Divine Soul Sorcerer level straight at level 2: four cantrips to shape a theme I have in mind (+ a ranged attack cantrip and Guidance), Bless, Shield and Absorb Elements. And Favoured by the Gods is going to make proficiency in Con Saves much less of a priority.

I want to go with two handed weapon + plate.
Now I'm in doubt: what's best, Great Weapon Master or Polearm Master?
The first can rack up quite some damage but will pretty much force me to invest more heavily in Str to keep a good chance to hit; the second gives me more chances to use Bonus Actions and Reactions (I won't have a lot to do with those, otherwise) but could also benefit from GWM, and Sentinel.

Any help planning ASIs for the build, pretty please?

I recommend not taking Res:Con in your case. Paladins have few ASIs to spare, due to how much they stand to gain from boosting Charisma and their primary attack stat. In fact, every Charisma bump will boost your Concentration saves slightly too (as well as that of everyone else in the party. As well as several other important things).

As a guideline for selecting GWM vs PAM (for any character, not just Paladins), consider the following:
- The higher your damage-per-hit, the better PAM is.
- The better and more plentiful your bonus actions, the worse PAM is.
- The higher your number of attacks and accuracy, the better GWM is.
- The higher your pre-existing damage-per-hit, the worse GWM is.
- PAM has the option of equipping a shield, if you're so inclined.

So for example, a character with many attacks but low damage-per-hit (like a Fighter) will benefit the most from GWM, and a character who hits very hard with each attack (such as from smiting) will benefit more from PAM, unless they have better things to be doing with their bonus actions and reactions.

When going ham with smites in particular, GWM's -5/+10 option can even decrease your average DPR (because of the whole "the higher your damage per hit, the worse GWM is" mathematical principle. Basically, if you do enough damage, the -5 accuracy costs more damage, on average, than the +10 stands to gain.

If you want the nitty gritty particulars of the math, you can quickly and easily compare your DPR with any feats, builds, and strategies using the calculator in my sig (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?582779-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator-(v2-0)).

[Benny89]

I would go with Either Paladin 11/9 Divine Sorderer or classic 7/13 Sorcadin.

Start as Vuman, go for PAM, then focus on getting CHA to 20. Then go either War Caster/RES (CON), Sentinel or GWM after that.

You want level 7 to get immunity to Charms (not really worth if you are elf though) and then 13 levels of Divine Soul Sorcerer to get more slots for smites, quicken Hold Person/Haste/Fireball etc. You won't have to spam Quicken BB because you will have PAM, so your sorc points can go towards quickening AOE spells/Buffs or heals if needed in combat. As good as quicken BB may seem, you can only do it 3 times without burning slots (which you want to have for smites or converting lower slots to higher slots for smites) on level 12/13 which is not a lot. PAM imo is more consistent here.


On the other hand, Vengeance Paladin wielding greatsword is also good option. With Hunter's Mark dealing 3d6 damage each attack is really nice. Average damage of PAM is 2d10 + (assuming 16 STR for most carrier) 9 + 1d4, which is 22,5. 2x (3d6 + 3) is 27 DPR. 3 attacks are better than 2, but if you take Half-Elf and Elven Accuracy, then triple advantage nets more accuracy than Sacred Weapon and VoE is best accuracy boost vs single target. Hunter's Mark is bonus action too, so you don't lose not taking PAM with Vengeance.

That is of course without considering for both taking 1 level Hexblade, which changes a lot when it comes to optimization. Because then Devotion Paladin can go for bonus action: Hex, action: sacred weapon and starting from next turn attacking with 33 DPR or using spear/quarterstaff + shield and attacking from Charisma (which you should have 20 by level 10) for 3d6 + 2 x (1d6 + 5) + 1d4 + 5, which on average is 35 DPR. Add Dueling Fighting style to that (+2 damage) and you have 41 DPR.

That is just flat average, accuracy is anothert thing but using Sacred Weapon + SAD CHA + Dueling will net more DPS than non-GWM STR Polearm attacks.

[Nidgit]

I could be misunderstanding what you're saying, but why are you taking Bless as a Divine Sorcerer spell? It's already on the Paladin spell list and they're aren't that many 1st level Paladin spells that are usually needed.

I'd definitely pick something else like Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, or some other utility spells that you wouldn't get otherwise. Burning Hands and Thunderwave are ok too for some light AoE, which most Paladins lack. You could even take Guiding Bolt, I guess, but that's better if you're planning on taking three levels of Sorcerer for Quickened Metamagic.

[Maan]

[...]
Oh, I'm pretty set on PAM+Sentinel right now... but thanks for the explanation!


I would go with Either Paladin 11/9 Divine Sorderer or classic 7/13 Sorcadin. [...]
Not what I'm looking for, I'm afraid.
I would go single class Paladin for this one, but that single level of Sorcerer will help me shape the character concept. By the way, Warlock won't be allowed (Hexblade is the optimization heaven for CHA based classes).


I could be misunderstanding what you're saying, but why are you taking Bless as a Divine Sorcerer spell? It's already on the Paladin spell list and they're aren't that many 1st level Paladin spells that are usually needed.

I'd definitely pick something else like Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, or some other utility spells that you wouldn't get otherwise. Burning Hands and Thunderwave are ok too for some light AoE, which most Paladins lack. You could even take Guiding Bolt, I guess, but that's better if you're planning on taking three levels of Sorcerer for Quickened Metamagic.
It' the free spell DS gets at first level: character will be Lawful Good, so either that or Cure Wounds. Anyway, while it's on the Paladin list already it does free up a slot from the paladin list (Bless is something you'll want to have prepared anyway).

So for the 2 spells I can pick, one will be Shield; for the other one I originally thought of taking Absorb Elements, but then again Healing Word could save a life...
I don't know if any other spell could compete with those 2; I would cross out Disguise Self, since a Devotion Paladin doesn't "lie or cheat"...