Martial Adept 5E WIP thread

[OldTrees1]

Goal: Using Eldritch Knight and SCAG weapon cantrips as a framework, create a Fighter subclass, and then a base class that gets at-will scaling maneuvers.

Maneuvers can come in 4 flavors

Strikes cost an Action. These are the foundation of this project. Can we design 50 of these? Consider Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade as our balance points. The maneuvers will scale in threat like cantrips do at 5th, 11th, 17th. But the idea is to scale the threat, not necessarily the damage.
Stances cost a Bonus Action to start, Concentration to continue. Should they have a finite duration to incur a renewal bonus action cost? Guidance and Mage Hand inspired this model.
Counters cost a Reaction.
Boosts cost a Bonus Action.


Current Objectives:
How many maneuvers can the subclass version know at each level?
Create 50 strike maneuvers

[OldTrees1]

Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Maneuvers Known


1st
+2
Fighting Style, Second Wind



2nd
+2
Action Surge (one use)



3rd
+2
Optional Recharge Mechanic for more known
2


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
3


5th
+3
Extra Attack



6th
+3
Ability Score Improvement



7th
+3

4


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement



9th
+4
Indomitable (one use)
5


10th
+4

6


11th
+4
Extra Attack (2)



12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement



13th
+5
Indomitable (two uses)
7


14th
+5
Ability Score Improvement



15th
+5

8


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement



17th
+6
Action Surge (two uses), Indomitable (three uses)



18th
+6

9


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement



20th
+6
Extra Attack (3)







Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Maneuvers Known


1st
+2




2nd
+2




3rd
+2




4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement



5th
+3




6th
+3




7th
+3




8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement



9th
+4




10th
+4




11th
+4




12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement



13th
+5




14th
+5




15th
+5




16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement



17th
+6




18th
+6




19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement



20th
+6
Capstone Feature

[OldTrees1]

Reserved for Maneuvers



Anvil Strike
The weight of your blow causes the target to smash into the ground.
School: Mountain Hammer
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against an opponent no larger than one size category larger than you. If this attack hits, the target makes a Strength save at advantage or be knocked prone.

At higher level
At 5th level, 11th level, and 17th level you can affect targets 1 size larger than before.
At 5th level, the saving throw is no longer at advantage. At 17th level the saving throw is at disadvantage.
At 11th level, to stand back up the target must pass another Strength save at advantage.




Petrifying Blow
The target's joints stiffen for a short time.
School: Mountain Hammer
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against an opponent. If this attack hits, the target makes a Constitution save or reduce their speed by 10ft for 1 round.

At higher level
At 5th level their movement drops to 0 instead.
At 11th level the target is Restrained.
At 17th level the target is Stunned.



Pushing Strike
A strike... that pushes.
School: Mountain Hammer or Iron Heart makes the most sense
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against an opponent no larger than one size category larger than you. If this attack hits, the target makes a Strength save at advantage or be pushed back 5 feet.

At higher levels
At 5th level, 11th level, and 17th level you can affect targets 1 size larger than before.
At 5th level, the saving throw is no longer at advantage and the target can be pushed back 10 feet. At 17th level the saving throw is at disadvantage and the target can be pushed back 15 feet.

Lazylord's Command
Use your turn to make others attack more
School: White Raven
Strike (1 Action)
Range: 30 feet

Choose one ally within range, that ally can make an additional melee attack on their next turn provided they take the attack action.

At higher levels
At 5th level and 11th level you gain additional attacks to divide up as you choose. You cannot give an ally more than one attack. However, you can make attacks equal to the number of attacks you did not distribute in this way. For example, at 11th level you can give out three attacks, giving all three, one to each ally. Keeping one and giving two to two different allies. Or Keeping two and giving one to an ally.
At 5th level, the attack does not need to be melee.
At 11th level, the ally can choose to instead spend a Reaction to make the attack during your Turn.
At 17th level, you can choose to give any one ally your Action during their turn.

Whirlwind Attack
You hold your weapon out and spin like a dreidel. Everyone thinks you look silly.
School: Iron Heart
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

Make a single attack roll and compare the result against the AC of all creatures within 5 feet of you. If the attack would hit them roll damage as normal. They take half damage.

At higher levels
At 5th level all effected creatures take full damage from your attack.
At 11th level all effected creatures take additional damage equal to your weapon's damage die. In addition, you can choose to not damage certain creatures with this attack.
At 17th level all effected creatures take additional damage equal to either your Strength or Dexterity modifier.

Warleader's Strike
You attack something so everyone else can attack it betterer
School: White Raven
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

Make a single melee weapon attack roll at Disadvantage. Regardless of if the attack is successful, the next attack made against that target gains Advantage on the attack roll.

At higher levels,
At 5th level, you no longer gain Disadvantage on the attack roll.
At 11th level, if your attack was successful all allies within 30 feet of you gain Advantage on attacks against the target on the first attack roll they make.
At 17th level, all allies within 30 feet of you gain Advantage on their first attack made against the target regardless of your attack's success

Drop It, Bad Villain. I Said Drop It
You attack your enemy's hands to disarm them.
School: Iron Heart
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

Make a single melee weapon attack. If the attack is successful the target must make a Strength saving throw at Advantage or it is forced to drop one item it is holding which lands at their feet.

At 5th level, the target no longer gains Advantage on their Strength saving throw, in addition, if you have an open hand you can choose to catch the enemy's dropped item.
At 11th level, you can choose to force the opponent to drop any two items it is holding. You can catch one of them with an open hand.
At 17th level, you can choose to instead disarm one piece of armor worn by the target.











Zephyr Stance
You move with speed and grace, ignoring obstacles like enemy blades, uneven terrain, and gravity.
School: NA
Stance (1 Bonus Action)
Range: Self

Your movement increases by 10 ft until this stance ends.

At higher level:
At 5th level you ignore difficult terrain while in this stance
At 11th level your movement does not provoke opportunity attacks while in this stance
At 17th level you gain a fly speed equal to your walking speed while in this stance


placeholder text



Stop Cut
You wait for your opponent to prepare an attack and strike to interrupt them.
School: NA
Counter (Reaction)
Range: 5ft

At 1st level, you may make a quick cut aimed at disrupting an enemy attack. When you are attacked by a creature within 5 ft of you that you can see, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll.

At higher level:
At 5th level you deal damage to the attacker equal to your proficiency. This increases to double your proficiency bonus at 11th level and triple at 17th level.
At 11th level the attack has disadvantage on all attack rolls against you until the end of the turn.
At 17th level the first attack against you automatically misses.

[OldTrees1]

Some open design questions:

Should the Maneuvers be divided into schools?
Should the Adept select a subset of schools?
Initial goal if 50 strike maneuvers.

[OldTrees1]

Reserved for safety

[OldTrees1]

Okay, that is enough reserved posts. I think we should focus on creating more Strike maneuvers and deciding when the subclass learns more maneuvers.

Eldritch Knight starts with 2 cantrips, 2 spell slots, and Weapon Bond. Could adept start with 3 maneuvers?

[Elves]

Nothing about the maneuver/power system is inherently linked to martial combat. It can be used for any power set. I feel like at the point where you implement it to its logical extent you'd basically be doing a 4e port for 5e.

Having an expenditure/recovery mechanic was important to the original system to prevent you from spamming the same maneuver.

[Dienekes]

Having an expenditure/recovery mechanic was important to the original system to prevent you from spamming the same maneuver.

Agreed, the simple but effective method of making the martials get interesting abilities with their spammability directly dependent on the player choosing to be less effective to do it makes a neat dynamic. That this Martial Adept will not replicate, for the worse in my mind.

However, I still think the idea of "this guy gets a bunch of martial cantrips" is an interesting one and would like to take part in the thought experiment.

I suppose the way to get around this is that the maneuvers themselves have to be designed in such a way that the player should not want to just spam one maneuver over and over. Which is difficult but not impossible.

I'd personally start with a list of effects we think would work with this martial character.

Pushing
Tripping
Disarming
Grappling
Single big hit
Hit many opponents with weak hit
You gain Disengage
Blinding
Slows
Aids allies
etc.

Followed by a list of conditions to allow the maneuver to take effect.

Two enemies are in a straight line away from you.
Three enemies are within 5 feet of you.
You start your turn Prone
You start your turn Grappled
You are at half health
Your target is at half health
The opponent missed you with an attack since the end of your last turn
Your opponent is stunned, grappled, paralyzed or restrained
You passed an ability save caused by the target opponent
Only usable on an Opportunity Attack

And so on.

[Elves]

Yes, there's nothing unbalanced about condition applications like that. At that point, though, it does become "what condition do I want to inflict this turn", which may not be the most exciting gameplay.

Have you considered removing the extra attacks class features, and instead baking extra damage and stuff into the maneuvers? Then do a basic attack refresh, just like warblade.

[OldTrees1]

Some examples (using quotes for readability). I also put in a bad cantrip progression for the subclass. What should the progression be?
Related thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612915-Probably-unpopular-take-%96-we-have-large-portions-of-Bo9S-ToB-in-5e-already&p=24541244#post24541244



Anvil Strike
The weight of your blow causes the target to smash into the ground.
School: Mountain Hammer
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against an opponent no larger than one size category larger than you. If this attack hits, the target makes a Strength save at advantage or be knocked prone.

At higher level
At 5th level, 11th level, and 17th level you can affect targets 1 size larger than before.
At 5th level, the saving throw is no longer at advantage. At 17th level the saving throw is at disadvantage.
At 11th level, to stand back up the target must pass another Strength save at advantage.




Petrifying Blow
The target's joints stiffen for a short time.
School: Mountain Hammer
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against an opponent. If this attack hits, the target makes a Constitution save or reduce their speed by 10ft for 1 round.

At higher level
At 5th level their movement drops to 0 instead.
At 11th level the target is Restrained.
At 17th level the target is Stunned.



Agreed, the simple but effective method of making the martials get interesting abilities with their spammability directly dependent on the player choosing to be less effective to do it makes a neat dynamic. That this Martial Adept will not replicate, for the worse in my mind.

Yes, there's nothing unbalanced about condition applications like that. At that point, though, it does become "what condition do I want to inflict this turn", which may not be the most exciting gameplay.

The recharge mechanic was both beloved and controversial at the same time in ToB. What about allowing the Adept to pick a recharge mechanic in exchange for more Maneuvers known? The recharge mechanics limit options so you could balance different flavors of recharge mechanics against each other in this area.

They would not all have to be conditions. Some could be new ways to attack (Desert Wind would be a prime source for those). You would get the same flowing effect as long as you have qualitative differences between the maneuvers.


Have you considered removing the extra attacks class features, and instead baking extra damage and stuff into the maneuvers? Then do a basic attack refresh, just like warblade.

Yes I do plan on removing Extra Attack when it moves from a Subclass to a base class. I am hoping this would be a group conversion process. Fighter subclass is just a stepping stone (which helps some with the process).



I'd personally start with a list of effects we think would work with this martial character.

A good list to start with. How would these look as scaling Manuevers?

[Dienekes]

Yes I do plan on removing Extra Attack when it moves from a Subclass to a base class. I am hoping this would be a group conversion process. Fighter subclass is just a stepping stone (which helps some with the process).

Personally, I wouldn't remove Extra Attack at 5 and 11. That is the base. When the goal is just to deal the most damage that is your "cantrip" plain simple 3 attacks. It also allows a balance point to match everything else against.



A good list to start with. How would these look as scaling Manuevers?

Pushing Strike
A strike... that pushes.
School: Mountain Hammer or Iron Heart makes the most sense
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against an opponent no larger than one size category larger than you. If this attack hits, the target makes a Strength save at advantage or be pushed back 5 feet.

At higher levels
At 5th level, 11th level, and 17th level you can affect targets 1 size larger than before.
At 5th level, the saving throw is no longer at advantage and the target can be pushed back 10 feet. At 17th level the saving throw is at disadvantage and the target can be pushed back 15 feet.

Lazylord's Command
Use your turn to make others attack more
School: White Raven
Strike (1 Action)
Range: 30 feet

Choose one ally within range, that ally can make an additional melee attack on their next turn provided they take the attack action.

At higher levels
At 5th level and 11th level you gain additional attacks to divide up as you choose. You cannot give an ally more than one attack. However, you can make attacks equal to the number of attacks you did not distribute in this way. For example, at 11th level you can give out three attacks, giving all three, one to each ally. Keeping one and giving two to two different allies. Or Keeping two and giving one to an ally.
At 5th level, the attack does not need to be melee.
At 11th level, the ally can choose to instead spend a Reaction to make the attack during your Turn.
At 17th level, you can choose to give any one ally your Action during their turn.

Whirlwind Attack
You hold your weapon out and spin like a dreidel. Everyone thinks you look silly.
School: Iron Heart
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

Make a single attack roll and compare the result against the AC of all creatures within 5 feet of you. If the attack would hit them roll damage as normal. They take half damage.

At higher levels
At 5th level all effected creatures take full damage from your attack.
At 11th level all effected creatures take additional damage equal to your weapon's damage die. In addition, you can choose to not damage certain creatures with this attack.
At 17th level all effected creatures take additional damage equal to either your Strength or Dexterity modifier.

Warleader's Strike
You attack something so everyone else can attack it betterer
School: White Raven
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

Make a single melee weapon attack roll at Disadvantage. Regardless of if the attack is successful, the next attack made against that target gains Advantage on the attack roll.

At higher levels,
At 5th level, you no longer gain Disadvantage on the attack roll.
At 11th level, if your attack was successful all allies within 30 feet of you gain Advantage on attacks against the target on the first attack roll they make.
At 17th level, all allies within 30 feet of you gain Advantage on their first attack made against the target regardless of your attack's success

Drop It, Bad Villain. I Said Drop It
You attack your enemy's hands to disarm them.
School: Iron Heart
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

Make a single melee weapon attack. If the attack is successful the target must make a Strength saving throw at Advantage or it is forced to drop one item it is holding which lands at their feet.

At 5th level, the target no longer gains Advantage on their Strength saving throw, in addition, if you have an open hand you can choose to catch the enemy's dropped item.
At 11th level, you can choose to force the opponent to drop any two items it is holding. You can catch one of them with an open hand.
At 17th level, you can choose to instead disarm one piece of armor worn by the target.

[Warwick]

I don't think schools are necessary at this juncture. If you want to avoid choice paralysis, I would curate the list of maneuvers for each class/subclass with access to them.

There's also the question of how overtly supernatural you want maneuvers to grow to be. Like, it is okay if Zephyr Stance buffs your walking speed at level 3 and gives you a fly speed at level 11? Also, to what extent are these maneuvers expected to cover archers as well as melee warriors? Do we want interlinked maneuvers (e.g. you must be in Stance X to perform Strike Y or Strike Z targets an enemy with Condition T that they probably got from another Strike)?

Also, in spoilers are some sketches for maneuvers




Stop Cut
You wait for your opponent to prepare an attack and strike to interrupt them.
School: NA
Counter (Reaction)
Range: 5ft

At 1st level, you may make a quick cut aimed at disrupting an enemy attack. When you are attacked by a creature within 5 ft of you that you can see, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll.

At higher level:
At 5th level you deal damage to the attacker equal to your proficiency. This increases to double your proficiency bonus at 11th level and triple at 17th level.
At 11th level the attack has disadvantage on all attack rolls against you until the end of the turn.
At 17th level the first attack against you automatically misses.



Zephyr Stance
You move with speed and grace, ignoring obstacles like enemy blades, uneven terrain, and gravity.
School: NA
Stance (1 Bonus Action)
Range: Self

Your movement increases by 10 ft until this stance ends.

At higher level:
At 5th level you ignore difficult terrain while in this stance
At 11th level your movement does not provoke opportunity attacks while in this stance
At 17th level you gain a fly speed equal to your walking speed while in this stance

[OldTrees1]

Personally, I wouldn't remove Extra Attack at 5 and 11. That is the base. When the goal is just to deal the most damage that is your "cantrip" plain simple 3 attacks. It also allows a balance point to match everything else against.

This is a good point, but others argued that the base class version should not have Fighter's signature ability.

Nice set of maneuvers to add to the list. (And great flavor text)
Pushing Strike might be able to scale its distance faster.
Whirlwind attack doing half damge in Tier 1 was a good balance trick.



I don't think schools are necessary at this juncture. If you want to avoid choice paralysis, I would curate the list of maneuvers for each class/subclass with access to them.

There's also the question of how overtly supernatural you want maneuvers to grow to be. Like, it is okay if Zephyr Stance buffs your walking speed at level 3 and gives you a fly speed at level 11? Also, to what extent are these maneuvers expected to cover archers as well as melee warriors? Do we want interlinked maneuvers (e.g. you must be in Stance X to perform Strike Y or Strike Z targets an enemy with Condition T that they probably got from another Strike)?

Okay. Schools will be optional flavor text then. I find they help my creative juices.

ToB had plenty of supernatural maneuvers, and Adept can handle them too. Different players will sculpt what kind of Adept they are playing.

For the initial batch I think we should focus on melee. However if an attack does not need to require melee, consider leaving it open.

Interlinked maneuvers would be tricky to implement unless the Adept knows a lot of maneuvers. I think independant maneuvers is better for now.

For Counters, Boosts, and Stances we need to be careful about what the opportunity cost to those actions is.
Zephyr Stance seems reasonable but we want to be careful that stances don't get much better than it.
Stop Cut might be too strong for a Reaction. I would still consider it if I removed some of the scaling. Uncanny Dodge might be a good point of reference.




Flame Slash
Burn, Burn, douse, Burn!
School: Desert Wind
Strike (1 Action)
Range: 5ft
Area: Cone
Saving Throw: Dexterity for half

Flames burst out in a cone from your blade. Creatures in that area take 2d6 fire damage.

At higher level
At 5th level, 11th level, and 17th level the range increases by 5ft.
At 11th level it increases to 3d6 fire damage.


Fade Away
A blink was all it took
School: Shadow Hand
Strike (1 Action)
Range: Melee Attack

As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against an opponent. If you hit you become Invisible until the end of the current turn. This will usually be your turn but this can be readied. The invisibility ends if you attack, use a strike, or casts a spell.

At higher level
At 5th it lasts until the start of your next turn.
At 11th it lasts until the end of your next turn.
At 17th Attacking or cast a spell during the duration will not end the invisibility

[gloryblaze]

I took a stab at it. (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/iVkZ0-4Gz)

Obviously needs at least a few more passes, for both balance and elegance. This was mostly just a quick and dirty update, not playtested at all. And I never really played 3.x so I'm sure there's stuff I missed in the conversion process.

[Elves]

Looks like that was a lot of work. I don't know 5e well so not going to read in full or critique, but props for following through.

To be comprehensive, maybe just go ahead and do all 3 original classes?

Or add the original classes as subclasses for paladin, monk, and fighter?

Also possibly the anime girls aren't a good look?

[gloryblaze]

Looks like that was a lot of work. I don't know 5e well so not going to read in full or critique, but props for following through.

To be comprehensive, maybe just go ahead and do all 3 original classes?

Or add the original classes as subclasses for paladin, monk, and fighter?

Also possibly the anime girls aren't a good look?

Crusader, swordsage, and warblade are the three subclasses of that class, assuming that those are the 3 original classes you mean?

Anime is definitely a to-taste thing, but I thought “being anime” was one of the draws of the Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic :P and to be fair, only 1 of those pictures is actually a girl or from an anime :P

[Elves]

Martial adept is slightly awkward as a class name is all. It's certainly more concise as 1 class, but there's probably space to furnish subclasses for each (off the top of my head, arcane swordsage and unarmed swordsage, and eternal blade with the elf lore filed off for warblade).

Again, my main point is just props for putting in the work.

[gloryblaze]

Martial adept is slightly awkward as a class name is all. It's certainly more concise as 1 class, but there's probably space to furnish subclasses for each (off the top of my head, arcane swordsage and unarmed swordsage, and eternal blade with the elf lore filed off for warblade).

Again, my main point is just props for putting in the work.

Ah, gotcha. I’ve never actually played a ToB char in 3.5 so I don’t really know any of the builds or prestige classes or how that would translate, but maybe some other folks in this thread might be able to do that

[Grod_The_Giant]

I worked on a similar project (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?595786-5e-Tome-of-Battle-Brainstorming-Now-with-a-class!&p=24098562#post24098562) last year. And it was, to be honest, a bit of a mess. Any conversion eventually falls back on the issue that the 3.5 version was a Fighter-plus, better than the PHB martial classes in every meaningful way. At the time, spellcasters were so strong and the power disparities in the system were so wide that you could get away with that, but 5e has a much tighter spread--especially when it comes to combat. I tried starting with something like a Cleric and working my way out, but I couldn't land on any sort of resource management system that felt close enough to the original (the closest I got was "~75% of a full caster's spell points, plus some mid-battle regeneration from using not-cantrips). If you can get any inspiration from my sufferings, I wish you all the best.

If I did it again, I'd probably... hmm... either lean much harder into the "cantrips grant not-spell points" thing and have that be the main way you get your points, flat-out say "when you roll Initiative, you gain X points" so you're at full power every fight, or give up and design something more like my Spell-Less Warlock (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?569312-Spell-Less-Warlock-Redesign) that doesn't really interact with spell structures at all.