Sleep Spells as finisher moves

[Cikomyr2]

Since sleep Spells are instrincly about affecting a set number of hit points, have anyone here seen sleep or similar high level spells used to end early an encounter or boss encounter about 3/4th of the way through? Ya know, when everyone is heavily depleted, HP wise.

[Keravath]

Often not.

Sleep puts 5d8 hit points of creatures to sleep. It is an area of effect AND it affects the creatures with the least hit points first.

To use it:

1) The BBEG needs to be under 5d8 hit points - depending on the roll this is 5-40 with an average of 22.5. (You can up cast sleep but it requires higher level spells).

2) You can't have any of your allies within range with less hit points than the BBEG.

However, over level 5, many characters will do more than 22.5 points of damage with their attacks. A warlock could do 19 to 21 points of damage with agonizing blast with an 18 or 20 charisma. Depending on the turn order it might just be easier to let the party finish off the BBEG rather than using a spell slot on sleep.

This is in part due to the hit points of monsters scaling substantially with level as one of the primary mechanisms for balancing opponents.

[MaxWilson]

Often not.

Sleep puts 5d8 hit points of creatures to sleep. It is an area of effect AND it affects the creatures with the least hit points first.

To use it:

1) The BBEG needs to be under 5d8 hit points - depending on the roll this is 5-40 with an average of 22.5. (You can up cast sleep but it requires higher level spells).

2) You can't have any of your allies within range with less hit points than the BBEG.

However, over level 5, many characters will do more than 22.5 points of damage with their attacks. A warlock could do 19 to 21 points of damage with agonizing blast with an 18 or 20 charisma. Depending on the turn order it might just be easier to let the party finish off the BBEG rather than using a spell slot on sleep.

This is in part due to the hit points of monsters scaling substantially with level as one of the primary mechanisms for balancing opponents.

#1 is a bigger deal than #2, since you can always move the center of the AoE. It would only be a problem if the bad guy was surrounded by your low-HP allies, but if there's only a couple you can likely work around it.

But #1 makes it very hard to use Sleep effectively. I can imagine it being used by e.g. a Planar Bound Dusk Hag, who's got Sleep for 9d8 3/day, and maybe I'd be surprised by how non-useless it is, but in general I'd pick doing 6d8 (27) worth of damage over attempting a 9d8 (41) Sleep anyway. The extra ~14 potential HP aren't worth the downside of doing 0 HP when you get your timing slightly wrong.

I can imagine using Sleep more if simply beating enemies unconscious at 0 HP didn't work just as well.

[Catullus64]

It is worth noting that Sleep's dice scale better with spell slots than do the dice of most damaging spells. You can, if you like, think of it as high-risk damage: you roll more dice than you would with a comparable-leveled damage spell, with no save, at the risk of it doing nothing. It's a calculated risk, but I've seen it done very effectively against several mini-bosses by my friend's Archfey Warlock. That is, until we started fighting lots of undead and elves...

[Cikomyr2]

It is worth noting that Sleep's dice scale better with spell slots than do the dice of most damaging spells. You can, if you like, think of it as high-risk damage: you roll more dice than you would with a comparable-leveled damage spell, with no save, at the risk of it doing nothing. It's a calculated risk, but I've seen it done very effectively against several mini-bosses by my friend's Archfey Warlock. That is, until we started fighting lots of undead and elves...

Then you intimidate your DM about how about he doesn't design 100% of his encounter against your character design. Some immunity to sleep is acceptable. But everyone? {Scrubbed}

[Catullus64]

Then you intimidate your DM about how about he doesn't design 100% of his encounter against your character design. Some immunity to sleep is acceptable. But everyone? {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I'm the DM. I promise that invalidating character designs was the furthest thing from my mind when I wrote an adventure centered on two of the most prominent fantasy creature types in the game. And in an Elf-and-faerie heavy game, the Fey warlock has not lacked chances to shine.

I simply brought it up as a wry note on another factor in sleep's effectiveness: the large number of creatures who simply ignore it.

[Sjappo]

Since sleep Spells are instrincly about affecting a set number of hit points, have anyone here seen sleep or similar high level spells used to end early an encounter or boss encounter about 3/4th of the way through? Ya know, when everyone is heavily depleted, HP wise.
I used an upcast Sleep by Morgantha in CoS to wipe an entire party. Does that count? She and her coven did soften the PCs up a bit with ranged damage spells.

[Mukade]

I used an upcast Sleep by Morgantha in CoS to wipe an entire party. Does that count? She and her coven did soften the PCs up a bit with ranged damage spells.

My party fought Morgantha twice, both times she (or one of her daughters) hit them with sleep and took out Ireena (and a nearby child, in one case). Second time I ruled Ireena fell down the stairs and hit her head - induced a brief panic when one PC ran up to the second floor of the windmill and saw Ireena sprawled out on the floor bleeding from a head wound with a third hag standing over her!
So narratively useful as a DM. As a player... could be useful fighting hordes of weaker enemies. Generally would be inclined to switch it out around level 4/5.

[Satori01]

The fact that Sleep does not effect creatures immune to Charm, is a very large impediment to the spell’s usefulness at higher tiers.

Unconscious means, of course, an automatic critical if you are w/in 5’ of the sleeper....I have seen an Archfey Warlock try to layer Hypnotic Pattern with Sleep.

Hypnotic Pattern was used first to disable the group of monsters.

Then the PC party readies actions to simultaneously strike the biggest bad of the monsters, while the warlock readies an action to cast Sleep, upon the Big Bad being released from Hypnotic Pattern.

The party then repeats readying simultaneous strikes against the now sleeping big bad, which are all Critical Hits.

It was cool, but convoluted.

[diplomancer]

My DM almost killed my party with that move; it's a good way to counteract yo-yo healing.

[Osuniev]

Sleep can still be useful at high level if you're fighting monsters with lots of small henchmen.

My players are lvl 13, but they faced a boss who had goblin mooks last week.

Upcasting Sleep does add 2d8 per level, but monsters HP increase much faster than that, and you often would be more effective casting a Fireball (8d6 damage, 4d6 if they save) than a 3rd level Sleep (9d8 but no effect if they have more).

[Chronos]

And it's tough to know the enemies' HP totals that precisely. Most DMs will give you a description like "It's wounded, but its wounds don't seem to be bothering it much yet", or "It's definitely taken a beating", or "It's in terrible shape". But for a creature whose healthy total is 150 or 200 HP, "it's in terrible shape" could mean it still has 40.