Opinions on Spell Components

[Techcaliber]

Hey Playground.
One of the players in my group, playing a Paladin who actually uses spells for things other than smite, is a true believer that components are stupid. When talking about clerics and their magic, he says this:
"Clerics use the power of GOD to do things, they shouldn’t need money to cast divine spells - there’s a reason it’s a high level slot."
He applied this logic to paladins and believes that components should be ignored. How do I convince him that components aren't bad, or at the very least make him not as anal about components, without just out ruling him saying "DM is right"? This is becoming annoying at my table, but it's the only problem with how he plays.

Thanks for your help.

[Galithar]

Tell him that his opinion of what matters is irrelevant? I could spend years and years convincing someone that guns are powered by peanut butter. If they load a round that has peanut butter instead of gunpowder that gun ain't firing.

I put that in blue but I'm not sure if I'm actually being sarcastic...

Alternatively explain to him that while the power of a deity or whatever may assist in spellcasting the component is there to channel the power. It's a point around which the spellcaster can use to anchor the magic as they shape it and pull power from the weave. There may be a more lore accurate explanation for the need of components, but I don't use published lore much so it's hard for me to say.

Either way at the end of the day you can also tell the player it is a balancing mechanic. All spells that require gold cost components are more powerful than their level and the cost prevents them from being spammed. It honestly just sounds like a player that is trying to avoid one of the very few and minor drawbacks of playing a caster.

[Techcaliber]

Tell him that his opinion of what matters is irrelevant? I could spend years and years convincing someone that guns are powered by peanut butter. If they load a round that has peanut butter instead of gunpowder that gun ain't firing.

I put that in blue but I'm not sure if I'm actually being sarcastic...

Alternatively explain to him that while the power of a deity or whatever may assist in spellcasting the component is there to channel the power. It's a point around which the spellcaster can use to anchor the magic as they shape it and pull power from the weave. There may be a more lore accurate explanation for the need of components, but I don't use published lore much so it's hard for me to say.

Either way at the end of the day you can also tell the player it is a balancing mechanic. All spells that require gold cost components are more powerful than their level and the cost prevents them from being spammed. It honestly just sounds like a player that is trying to avoid one of the very few and minor drawbacks of playing a caster.

Thanks for the feedback. As soon as I read this I tried. Didn't help. Thanks again for your feedback.

[Zhorn]

Player: Clerics/Paladins use the power of GOD to do things, they shouldn’t need money to cast divine spells.
DM: And when you DM you can rule it that way. As it is that's not what the book says. Now fork over those 300 gp diamonds.

I'm not sure there is a way about this without "DM is right". There are always going to be players wanting to get a better deal than what they get by RAW, and not all of them can be convinced otherwise. In session zeros I make players aware that they can challenge my rulings outside of game times, but they need a book rule reference to support their stance. If they cannot point to a rule in the books we are using that supports their stance or goes against my rulings, then they have nothing. Granted I'm also very lenient in a lot of other areas, so taking that medicine of "DM is right" is easier when they know it's not coming from a DM vs PC mindset.

[Galithar]

Thanks for the feedback. As soon as I read this I tried. Didn't help. Thanks again for your feedback.

It honestly sounds very much like a player trying to game the system and convince you to give them things for free. If they won't listen to reason I would simply tell them that the rules are what they are, and politely ask him to not bring it up during the game.

[Techcaliber]

Thank you everyone for your feedback, guess Occam's Razor wins again. Hopefully he'll learn what I mean, but until then he'll have to live with it.

Again, thanks

[Dienekes]

Yeah it's powered by a god. But this is an old school god. A god that demands exact sacrifices and tokens to perform their rituals to get them to pay attention enough to you to cast their spells.

You don't have the diamond to offer as sacrifice to your god? Too bad, the god is gonna ignore you for a cleric who cares enough to get the ritual right.

Or just smack 'em upside the head and say "it's a game mechanic balance point, you can already alter the fabric of reality, so pay the mechanical fine or pick a fighter next time."

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It is pretty easy, the god demands a sacrifice. Or the ritual demands one.

Tell him he need to donate the consumed spell component to his god followers of an organisation that connected to his god.

If this focus is not consumed tell him that it is a mark in his religious group that allows his to use his god powers in that way. And with no mark he will not be able to cast it.

My solution with a casting paladin was to pot my holy symbol (focus) on my shield, armour and necklace so I will always have him available to use instead of a cheap component.

[Eldariel]

You could play the law of exchange: to gain something, you must give something of equal value. Add to that gems' mythical properties and such and it should be trivial to explain it away for at least expensive components: gems are needed to bridge the gap between this world and afterlife, or to unroot the affliction or whatever being cured or some such. Or just gamist "we don't want resurrection to be free".

[Mellack]

I am going to argue with the idea that the power needs to be coming from a god. A paladin needs an oath, but I don't think they are required to worship any gods. I know in earlier editions it was possible to serve an ideal or concept. They might just be casting much like a wizard, just using their own faith.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I am going to argue with the idea that the power needs to be coming from a god. A paladin needs an oath, but I don't think they are required to worship any gods. I know in earlier editions it was possible to serve an ideal or concept. They might just be casting much like a wizard, just using their own faith.

The fluff suggest they get the power from the oath so it is more a force of personality.
It was also like this in 3.5e(if your god is doing something bad you are required to stop him by your code).


A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.

It looks like a god is totally optional for a paladin.

[Mellack]

The fluff suggest they get the power from the oath so it is more a force of personality.
It was also like this in 3.5e(if your god is doing something bad you are required to stop him by your code).



It looks like a god is totally optional for a paladin.

Then if paladins are not required to have a deity, it follows that their spells can't need to be powered by a deity. So they are just powering it on their own, just like a sorcerer. If the sorcerer need components, so does the paladin. Try that on your player.

[Greywander]

I wonder if y'all aren't coming at this from the wrong angle.

First, I'd explain to him that spell components are necessary for game balance reasons. Just as an example, ask him how he'd plan to restrain a wizard with teleportation spells. The big reason spell components are required is so that there is a way to "disarm" a spellcaster. You gag them, blindfold them, put them in handcuffs, and take away their spell focus. If you fail to do one of these, you could see the wizard escape by using a spell.

The same component rules apply equally by default to all spellcasters, regardless of where they get their magic from. This helps insure that all casters are balanced against each other. Clerics and paladins don't get an exemption from component requirements, because if they did then they would be impossible to "disarm". From there, it's only a matter of finding a roleplay justification for why you need components. This really shouldn't be hard. Saying a prayer for a verbal component, or performing a gesture (such as crossing yourself) for the somatic component. Such things are still commonly done among religious people today.

It sounds like material components are where his beef is. But lots of religious rituals involve making use of a physical object. Often this takes the form of touching a holy symbol or lighting a candle. Many religions also have ritual feasts where the food is the component (for example, bread and wine), and the components are literally consumed. And really, religious stories tend to be full of prophets using some sort of object to perform a miracle (e.g. a staff, a belt, a fish, a jar of oil, etc.), rather than the miracle simply happening with no perceivable action on the part of the prophet. In a way, I think this is itself representative of the gods using mortals as vessels to carry out their will. So, too, do they use common objects as vessels to channel their power. Perhaps the gods are actually incapable of creating something from nothing, and thus material components serve as the thing that can be transformed into the spell effect.

At the end of the day, it does pretty much come down to, "because the rules say so." And you, as a DM, aren't willing to make an exception. If he wants to, he can justify why he needs components. If he's not willing to do that, then that's his problem, not yours. And really, it should almost be a non-issue when he can put his holy symbol on his shield. As long as he meets the mechanical requirements, it should be fine if he flavors it however he likes.

[Angelmaker]

Hey Playground.
One of the players in my group, playing a Paladin who actually uses spells for things other than smite, is a true believer that components are stupid. When talking about clerics and their magic, he says this:
"Clerics use the power of GOD to do things, they shouldn’t need money to cast divine spells - there’s a reason it’s a high level slot."

As a GM, nod to his reasoning and move on.

Then, when he casts a spell without the component, make sure to ask him "is this what you do?" and if he confirms...

Variant A: Player is "working" for a lawful aligned deity.

As you cast the spell and the magic takes hold, you feel time freezing around you. You cannot move and the entire battlefield /scenario/whatever is frozen around you. You wonder for a moment if you died. Then, a figure walks towards you (describe the figure in no uncertain terms that it´s a cosmologicaly appropriate appearance for a servant of his chosen deity) and looks at you for a moment. He shakes his head and then unfreezes time only for you with a touch of his palm.

"<Character name>, for trying to break the fundamentals of magic that the goddess of magic has put forth, you´re accused of cheating the gods of their rightfully tribute. How do you plead?"

Variant B: PLayer is "working" for a good aligned deity.

"<Character name>, thou hast invoked powers which demand a price. Thy choosing to omit that price will lead to an unbalance in the weave seperating the high heavens and the planes of hell. Proceed with this course of action and the price we all have to pay is dire."

Variant C: Player is "working" for an evil deity.

Nothing bad happens. But the more components get omitted the more items seem to be missing from the party. Diamond dust goes missing, people wake up and have no eyelashes anymore, pieces of skin are missing and hey, that kindey of your friend is hurting really bad. Why could that be? The dark gods DO NOT GET CHEATED OUT OF THEIR TRUBUTE!

If he is just fed up with it as a player, because he doesn´t like to keep track of it as a resource, that´s probably an out of character problem. But delivering some in world fluff for the reason it exists might already be enough. Should be fun enough to mess with your players head. :)

[MrStabby]

The fluff suggest they get the power from the oath so it is more a force of personality.
It was also like this in 3.5e(if your god is doing something bad you are required to stop him by your code).



It looks like a god is totally optional for a paladin.

I had always assumed a god was pretty much optional for a paladin - although the text you quoted seems to suggest otherwise if the power comes as much from a god as from an oath. If you only have an oath and not a god do you only get half the power?

[HappyDaze]

Let him know that D&D gods don't make the rules of magic; they have to follow them and pass them on to their followers. Yes, even the most chaotic among the gods must do this. That's also why a god can't just choose to gift a novice cleric with a 9th level spell and why the cleric union requires all gods to grant access to the base cleric list even when some of those spells really go against the theme of the cleric's specific god (e.g., yes, the god of destruction has to allow access to healing word).

[MoiMagnus]

(I'm assuming you're only talking about Material components. V and S components can easily be argued as necessary for balance. V for stealth, and S to constrain an empty hand.)

Chances are the justification through "divine magic is made by god" is just a rationalisation of this though. Players that deeply care about the internal logic of the universe are very rare, and when they do spell components is usually the least of their complaints. Arguing against it would just push your player into other bad arguments.
(And I particularly disagree with Angelmaker suggestion of faking to be convinced and then punishing the player with arbitrary DM fiat. That's probably just end up with the player being bitter and adversarial, ruining any future session where he plays, and possibly make you look like a petty tyrannical DM if you applies your punishment with a sadistic smile.)

There are three main reasons players don't like spell component:
1) It feels to them like a uninteresting and frustrating bother, similarly to counting rations, encumbrance, ...
2) It breaks their immersion because their mental image of what their character should look like doesn't match the rules.
3) They just egoistically wants more power

If your player is in the first category, a good solution would be to abstract components into "what are the gameplay consequences".
For material components, the gameplay consequences are
(a) Components can be stolen/lost, which is a quite rare situation.
(b) Components can have a cost. Honestly, for a half caster, component costs will probably be negligible compared to their monthly expenses. Unless they start making a business out of it by casting costly spells every day, you can probably ignore the individual costs and put a monthly or weekly price. For a full caster, that would be different, and keeping track of high level spell uses is still important for balance.
=> For both, components don't need to be tracked, they just need to be acknowledged as existing and then stop caring about them.

If your player is in the second category, you can just reskin the spell components into something that match better their vision of the character. E;g. maybe the components are instead a magic potion that increases your attunement with your god to unleash greater powers (similarly to how in real life pantheons, some drugs were used for religious purposes). Maybe each uses deteriorate the spell focus the Paladin is using because of energy overload, and it has to be repaired for a cost.

If your player is in the third category, just use "DM is right". But in my experience, this case is much more rare than what peoples seems to think. (If you don't count problematic players. If you have a problematic player at your table, their opinion on spell component is probably the least of your problems.)

[kazaryu]

Hey Playground.
One of the players in my group, playing a Paladin who actually uses spells for things other than smite, is a true believer that components are stupid. When talking about clerics and their magic, he says this:
"Clerics use the power of GOD to do things, they shouldn’t need money to cast divine spells - there’s a reason it’s a high level slot."
He applied this logic to paladins and believes that components should be ignored. How do I convince him that components aren't bad, or at the very least make him not as anal about components, without just out ruling him saying "DM is right"? This is becoming annoying at my table, but it's the only problem with how he plays.

Thanks for your help.

honestly, it all comes down to:

'this game isn't simulationist. there are some things that exist because they make mechanical sense, even if they're somewhat awkward narratively.'

spellcasting generally is a really good example of this. spell slots? what? prepared spells? so i just..forget the spell that i literally cast last night before going to sleep?. of course, we can come up with in world reasons for this, but at least for me, most of them feel contrived. Like, i have my own personal explanations too. but they still feel contrived. And a big part of that is because they're there for the mechanics, not to make narrative sense.

If this guy can't understand that he's playing a game, that has rules, and those rules almost exclusively exist for make sense from a meta perspective, then you're not going to be able to convince him.

honestly, it just sounds to me that he's annoyed that he can't cast certain spells while holding a sword and shield and is just using narrative weirdness of the rules as a means of expressing that. or, if im not feeling charitable, he's using it as an an excuse to try to annoy you enough about it that you relent and let him ignore spellcasting components.

edit: the immediate above obviously also applies to expensive components, since thats what you used as an example. sounds like he wants to be able to cast spells like revivify for free without regard to the mechanical balance of it.

[Tes]

Is there a specific Spell he's complaining about?

Both Paladin and Cleric are using their Spellcasting Focus most of the time and get access to loads of spells by merely leveling. Maybe appeal on the gaming aspect of unlocking things to make sure not all options are just available the second you ding a new level and slept on it.

[Joe the Rat]

See The Excorcist, or multiple Dracula films for examples of holy symbols being used to channel the might of the deity / faith of the wielder.

Not to mention said holy symbol can be painted on his gorram shield, so I am seeing no particular reason why he even needs to fuss on it.

Unless he's complaining about diamonds for revivify & raise dead - that's about the only place where paladins consume components. Feel free to point out the more and more expensive components - consumed or not - required by higher level spells, and be glad the Price of Resurrection, paid to appease the balance of forces, does not require a more "equivalent" exchange. Your pledge grants you great power, and access to magic. You don't even have to study. That's the divinity. But it is still magic, and follows the rules of magic, so unless you want the resident deity of magic to hound your ass for breaking the rules, get in line.

[MoiMagnus]

Maybe appeal on the gaming aspect of unlocking things to make sure not all options are just available the second you ding a new level and slept on it.

Apart from very rare components that the PC would only buy if he has a specific use in mind, the PC probably already has the component needed for the spells of his next level up.
[Unless you assume that the PC doesn't have access to the knowledge of spell component from spells that are not yet accessible to him? It's always unclear how much is meta knowledge and how much is in-universe knowledge.]

[Gungor]

I wonder if y'all aren't coming at this from the wrong angle.

It sounds like material components are where his beef is. But lots of religious rituals involve making use of a physical object. Often this takes the form of touching a holy symbol or lighting a candle. Many religions also have ritual feasts where the food is the component (for example, bread and wine), and the components are literally consumed. And really, religious stories tend to be full of prophets using some sort of object to perform a miracle (e.g. a staff, a belt, a fish, a jar of oil, etc.), rather than the miracle simply happening with no perceivable action on the part of the prophet. In a way, I think this is itself representative of the gods using mortals as vessels to carry out their will. So, too, do they use common objects as vessels to channel their power. Perhaps the gods are actually incapable of creating something from nothing, and thus material components serve as the thing that can be transformed into the spell effect.


+infinity to this.

If anything, the fact that the power "comes from a GOD" is all the MORE reason for the proper use of all components. I believe in D&D cosmology, gods get their power from their worshippers - meaning the more followers they have the more power they have. From this it kind of stands to reason that their power is dependent on their followers doing things "the right way".

[Keltest]

Adding my voice to the "even if its godly magic, youre still the one casting the spell" crowd. You may have a god for a battery instead of the Weave or whatever you use, but its the actual act of spellcasting, including using components, that turns that energy into any given spell effect. The ritual and symbolism is still important, perhaps more important, since otherwise youre just being blasted with raw godly energy, which cant be good for you.

[Willie the Duck]

Hey Playground.
One of the players in my group, playing a Paladin who actually uses spells for things other than smite, is a true believer that components are stupid. When talking about clerics and their magic, he says this:
"Clerics use the power of GOD to do things, they shouldn’t need money to cast divine spells - there’s a reason it’s a high level slot."
He applied this logic to paladins and believes that components should be ignored. How do I convince him that components aren't bad, or at the very least make him not as anal about components, without just out ruling him saying "DM is right"? This is becoming annoying at my table, but it's the only problem with how he plays.

Thanks for your help.

As others have said, paladins don't get their powers from a GAWD, religious spells should require more rituals and required items and stuff, not less, and some of this stuff is just gamist artifice.

Beyond that, two things spring to mind --

Divine casters get ACCESS to their divine spells through their gods, faith, oaths, etc., but that's it. They still have to perform whatever mumbo jumbo the science-that-is-magic or however you want to think of it requires one to do to make a spell happen. In this world, rubbing amber with rabbit fur and shouting ESARHPPUEDAM (plus whatever spell slots mean in-universe) means you can make a bolt of lightning appear, and the universe doesn't care if you've been invested by god, learning, fell pact, or draconic heritage, you need to do this thing to make the magic happen.
D&D magic is, for the most part, combat magic. It doesn't have to be that way. Certainly plenty of the genre of literature and movies which inspired D&D have magic be much less convenient, requiring hours to cast, magic circles to draw, cultists chanting, the whole kit and caboodle. The acquiring of weird little trinkets and having to make weird handsigns and say stupid stuff is the hoop you jumpt through to obviate the need for that much less convenient setup.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

A paladin's strikes are powered by his courage, faith and unwavering loyalty. They still need a sword.

I've also never seen a movie exorcism work without a crucifix, holy water or some other earthly way of channeling the divine power. And those powers come from a god.

Given that a paladin has limited spell slots of a limited level using spells that do limited damage across a limited range I also am kind of wondering why spell components are one limit too far. "My god is so powerful, he can waive a single requirement the rulebook says my spells have!"

[Segev]

"Are you telling your god that he's wrong? Are you refusing him the sacrifices he demands for the miracles for which you plead?"

[lall]

I don’t like M spells, so I choose other spells (or I cast Presty first to create a focus).

[Vogie]

I mean, you could always comply to this player by making their components more expensive and/or rare.

For example, a journey of 300 miles (or more) to Mount McGuffin could work as a single charge for revivify. There you go, no 300 gp diamond needed. Also, roll a new character in the meantime, because that paladin is going on a lone quest for a while.

[ForeverFlame]

Tell them spell components don't make sense anyway, because VSM can sometimes be easier to cast than VS.

[Techcaliber]

As a GM, nod to his reasoning and move on.

Then, when he casts a spell without the component, make sure to ask him "is this what you do?" and if he confirms...

Variant A: Player is "working" for a lawful aligned deity.

As you cast the spell and the magic takes hold, you feel time freezing around you. You cannot move and the entire battlefield /scenario/whatever is frozen around you. You wonder for a moment if you died. Then, a figure walks towards you (describe the figure in no uncertain terms that it´s a cosmologicaly appropriate appearance for a servant of his chosen deity) and looks at you for a moment. He shakes his head and then unfreezes time only for you with a touch of his palm.

"<Character name>, for trying to break the fundamentals of magic that the goddess of magic has put forth, you´re accused of cheating the gods of their rightfully tribute. How do you plead?"

Variant B: PLayer is "working" for a good aligned deity.

"<Character name>, thou hast invoked powers which demand a price. Thy choosing to omit that price will lead to an unbalance in the weave seperating the high heavens and the planes of hell. Proceed with this course of action and the price we all have to pay is dire."

Variant C: Player is "working" for an evil deity.

Nothing bad happens. But the more components get omitted the more items seem to be missing from the party. Diamond dust goes missing, people wake up and have no eyelashes anymore, pieces of skin are missing and hey, that kindey of your friend is hurting really bad. Why could that be? The dark gods DO NOT GET CHEATED OUT OF THEIR TRUBUTE!

If he is just fed up with it as a player, because he doesn´t like to keep track of it as a resource, that´s probably an out of character problem. But delivering some in world fluff for the reason it exists might already be enough. Should be fun enough to mess with your players head. :)

Ok, this is great. He's made it clear that there is no way to change his mind, but this gives me solutions that are fun to the story, so thank you!

And to everyone else, thank you so much for putting in the time and effort to respond, I will try some of the present explanations in the future, but he is stubborn. Again thank you all!