[3.X] Most Hated Monsters

[Thurbane]

So, I was wondering, what are monsters the players really hate encountering/fighting in D&D?

I mean, Rust Monsters are pretty universally despised for obvious reasons, but what monsters do you specifically loathe? I'll start:

Dire Rats (aka Giant Rats in earlier editions). Why? Because of a combo of two factors: 1.) they are a low level monster, and 2.) they cause disease, which is extremely annoying to deal with at low levels. You generally can't afford spell remedies, so you are reduced to resting up for days or weeks waiting for all affected party members to fight off the infection!

And the thing is, they are in like 2 out of every 3 published low level adventures. :smallfurious: Or at least it feels that way...

So I ask the Playground, what are some other beasties you hate encountering?

[Tvtyrant]

Any incorporate undead probably counts. They usually are hard to kill and either use instant death or permanent status ailments.

[Telonius]

Golems. A pain to fight, and take forever to kill. Rogues shrug their shoulders and say, "Welp, all on you, meatshield." So do Wizards if they don't have the right spell (or scroll) at the ready.

[Powerdork]

Here's the absolute worst: Humanoids that don't have some special ability (besides the capacity to pick up a class). For instance, gnolls. Elves. Orcs. Humans.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Golems. A pain to fight, and take forever to kill. Rogues shrug their shoulders and say, "Welp, all on you, meatshield." So do Wizards if they don't have the right spell (or scroll) at the ready.Can the golem fly? Or are you in water and it can swim? No? Then have fun neutering it almost completely via a 1st level spell (grease), even if it's [epic].

[Tvtyrant]

Can the golem fly? Or are you in water and it can swim? No? Then have fun neutering it almost completely via a 1st level spell (grease), even if it's [epic].

Also Greater Slaying Arrows are 4k and an Iron Golem is 150K. Only the really big golems don't have an 80%+ chance to die to a cheap magic arrow. The Stone, Clay and Flesh golems die to the lesser slaying arrow 3/4 of the time, a 2k item.

Check with your local DM to see if Artificer is the right class for you.

[Fizban]

Nycaloth. It's the example that made it oh so clear how the different monster manuals are on completely different power levels: compare it to any other CR 10 and watch it completely crush them in basically every category. Then look at the Manual of the Planes original version to see how that's all due to its MM3 changes. Ridiculously overpowered.

Dishonorable mention to the Skeletal Dragon template, which essentially cuts the CR of a dragon in half without reducing any of their melee offensive ability. Both are found in the adventure Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, which is what we played when I got someone else to DM 'cause I wanted to play.

Pretty sure I'd also have a bad time fighting most of the Obyrith class- boring concept (zomg chaos!), they all come with permanent esoteric debuffs on sight, and are written at the higher MM3-era power level. Though I do like that the Ekolid is an *actual* apocalypse class spawner, unlike the so-called wightocalypse.


Here's the absolute worst: Humanoids that don't have some special ability (besides the capacity to pick up a class). For instance, gnolls. Elves. Orcs. Humans.
Yup, classed humanoids too. They're either overpowered, underpowered, or so meticulously built to match a monster of the intended CR that you should have just used a monster. Boring *and* swingy, great. Unfortunately when the DM departed the module they immediately fell back on classed humanoids, and the game broke up before we got to any monster fights (I had expressed my distress at the concept of fighting a Purple Worm as we were entering the desert, ensuring we'd have at least fought a Purple Worm).

And that's before you get to the good 'ol prisoner dilemma, and not the game theory kind. Because someone will always, always realize that all they have to do is make a single non-lethal attack to leave someone alive, and now the rest of you get to deal with it. This will not be a player with a PC who has any sort of interrogation ability. It will not be a foe who is worth interrogating. And they will not have thought about what happens after the failed interrogation is done at all. But there will be a disagreement on what the appropriate solution to the new problem is. A problem you wouldn't have had if you were fighting monsters.

[Khedrac]

Drowned - con check (not A Fort Save so most boosts don't help) or be incapacitated shortly leading to dead, added to lots of hit points make them badly under-CR'd and a threat to even much higher level PCs unless they know what they will be up against.

Ghouls and Ghasts - often met by very low level characters, very dangerous and have turn resistance so a cleric needs to roll really well to get them.

[The Viscount]

Bodaks. This fight is either extremely dull or statistically lethal for someone in the party based on whether the party has death ward or similar effects up. Averting your gaze improves your chances but debuffs you (and means you can't sneak attack it even with penetrating strike/gravestrike/etc), and there is the option of closing your eyes entirely, but then this turns into a flailing slapfight.

[AvatarVecna]

So, I was wondering, what are monsters the players really hate encountering/fighting in D&D?

I mean, Rust Monsters are pretty universally despised for obvious reasons, but what monsters do you specifically loathe? I'll start:

Dire Rats (aka Giant Rats in earlier editions). Why? Because of a combo of two factors: 1.) they are a low level monster, and 2.) they cause disease, which is extremely annoying to deal with at low levels. You generally can't afford spell remedies, so you are reduced to resting up for days or weeks waiting for all affected party members to fight off the infection!

And the thing is, they are in like 2 out of every 3 published low level adventures. :smallfurious: Or at least it feels that way...

Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Red Jester. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester/) Weaponized Deck of Many Things (that you can't even loot).

[Tvtyrant]

Bodaks. This fight is either extremely dull or statistically lethal for someone in the party based on whether the party has death ward or similar effects up. Averting your gaze improves your chances but debuffs you (and means you can't sneak attack it even with penetrating strike/gravestrike/etc), and there is the option of closing your eyes entirely, but then this turns into a flailing slapfight.

Finally the Monks time to shine! They have experience with flailing slapfights.

[Telonius]

Can the golem fly? Or are you in water and it can swim? No? Then have fun neutering it almost completely via a 1st level spell (grease), even if it's [epic].

-4 to attack and melee AC for the two rounds it takes to crawl out isn't exactly "neutered." Inconvenienced, absolutely. But Grease will not take it completely out of the fight.

Slaying Arrows (and Artificers) are indeed awesome. But if your party lacks both of them, you're kind of stuck.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

-4 to attack and melee AC for the two rounds it takes to crawl out isn't exactly "neutered." Inconvenienced, absolutely. But Grease will not take it completely out of the fight.It's prone and can't do much of anything except crawl slowly out. Meanwhile, your party can rain (un)holy hell down on it. Then once it escapes, it's a move action to stand up. Then just grease it again (or bull rush it back into the greased area).

It's honestly not a bad deal at all for a 1st level spell.

[Blackhawk748]

I have an immense hatred of Shadows, largely because I feel they are under CRed.

The Runehound is another one. It has Web and shoots an Acid blast that hits like a truck. Also under CRed at, iirc, 3

[Tvtyrant]

-4 to attack and melee AC for the two rounds it takes to crawl out isn't exactly "neutered." Inconvenienced, absolutely. But Grease will not take it completely out of the fight.

Slaying Arrows (and Artificers) are indeed awesome. But if your party lacks both of them, you're kind of stuck.

True, but summons also do a pretty good job. A level 13 Wizard can summon a Huge Earth Elemental, which at CR7 is almost the same monster stripped of its AC and magic immunity. It is actually better in a grapple, and has enough HP that the golem will take 4 turns or more to kill it. HEE sits between the party and the golem until it wins a grapple, party does an Office Space beatdown while it is grappled.

[Bronk]

My least favorite monster to come up against is the Gray Ooze. It's a lot like a rust monster because it has a low CR, but unlike the rust monster, you can destroy your own metal and wood weapons when fighting back, because when struck its acid power can dissolve them instantly.

So, as a player with a low level PC, you come up against one of these things for the first time, and you feel so much elation at being able to hit the thing's measly 5AC, only to be shocked when your favorite weapon is poofed away. Every time after the first, if you have a new character without the proper knowledge skills, what do you do? It's so hard not to metagame, and there's always a search for the cheapest weapon to use first...

There are other, more powerful monsters with the same power, but the earlier ones always hit you when you have the least resources.

[The Glyphstone]

Adamantine Clockwork Horrors, which I'm shocked no one mentioned. Sure, there is technically only one in any campaign setting/universe, but CR9 At-will Disintegrate, Implosion, and Disjunction is a legendarily bad balancing act for a reason.

[el minster]

Any incorporate undead probably counts. They usually are hard to kill and either use instant death or permanent status ailments.

Is incorporeal undead what your aiming for?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is incorporeal undead what your aiming for?Nah. Those corporate middle-management undead are The Worst.

[Zanos]

Bad memories in this thread. I'll second Shadows, Bodaks, and Drowned for sure.

I'll add the Cockatrice(CR 3 petrification bite) and the Basilisk(CR 5 petrification gaze). Petrification can be as bad as death at these levels, and it only takes one bad save.

I believe there's at least one incorporeal undead swarm whose swarm attack inflicts ability damage, but I can't quite recall what it is. Trying to figure out a way to hurt that thing was pain.

An unconventional one I'll bring up is the 1/2 CR Orc Warrior. Doesn't look like much until you realize it's falchion threatens a crit on an 18-20, and with 2d4+4 damage it stands a decent chance of permanently putting a character in the ground at level 1. Even nastier in PF where their CR got reduced to 1/3rd and they gained Orc ferocity, so they effectively have 18hp.



Dishonorable mention to the Skeletal Dragon template, which essentially cuts the CR of a dragon in half without reducing any of their melee offensive ability. Both are found in the adventure Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, which is what we played when I got someone else to DM 'cause I wanted to play.
There's skeletal/zombie dragons in Draconomicon that are similarly nasty. My DM thought he was a pretty funny guy with his Ancient Red Dragon zombies, until he realized that I prepared command undead and non-intelligent undead receive no save from being effectively dominated for 1/day per CL from a 2nd level slot. Pretty epic taxi.



Golems. A pain to fight, and take forever to kill. Rogues shrug their shoulders and say, "Welp, all on you, meatshield." So do Wizards if they don't have the right spell (or scroll) at the ready.
Golems were much worse in 3.0. In 3.5 there's a decent selection of SR:No spells to use, and some pretty powerful monsters you can summon to beat on the golem. You can also always buff the party.

[Telok]

I dislike the "save or die/fail" monsters when there's no warning or information available. Basilisk are fine, unless the dm is dropping them on you in close combat and saying they're "just lizards" untill the whole party has to save. Other than that I have no real issues with them. Likewise allips are fine if you have a chance to prepare or know they're around. It's the "surprise! Inescapable allips for no reason!" encounters that are bad.

For hatred though, the hydra, because it's been made boring. Go back to having the body be immune unless you do its full hp in one hit. Then people will actually interact with the whole head lopping off thing. Other than that its a sad, ground pounding, meat sack.

[The Viscount]

I have an immense hatred of Shadows, largely because I feel they are under CRed.

The Runehound is another one. It has Web and shoots an Acid blast that hits like a truck. Also under CRed at, iirc, 3

Runehound is indeed CR 3, and it should not be. Its unparalleled 500 foot blindsight means it's always aware of you before the encounter starts.


I believe there's at least one incorporeal undead swarm whose swarm attack inflicts ability damage, but I can't quite recall what it is. Trying to figure out a way to hurt that thing was pain.

That's the Ephemeral swarm, a CR 5 monster from MM3. It's even got a bunch of HD so you can't turn it.

[Fizban]

Bodaks. This fight is either extremely dull or statistically lethal for someone in the party based on whether the party has death ward or similar effects up. Averting your gaze improves your chances but debuffs you (and means you can't sneak attack it even with penetrating strike/gravestrike/etc), and there is the option of closing your eyes entirely, but then this turns into a flailing slapfight.
They only deal 1d8+1 damage though. Like the Medusa, an appropriately leveled Fighter should be able to nearly solo one with their eyes closed, though they are one of the only things with cold iron DR which could slow you down.

Red Jester. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester/) Weaponized Deck of Many Things (that you can't even loot).
Speaking of jesters, the Gray Jester from Heroes of Horror. Its very existence confirms a tone/theme/whatever in the game that I am 100% not interested in having, so I would be rather ticked if I fought one.

Adamantine Clockwork Horrors, which I'm shocked no one mentioned. Sure, there is technically only one in any campaign setting/universe, but CR9 At-will Disintegrate, Implosion, and Disjunction is a legendarily bad balancing act for a reason.
I actually don't find it too surprising considering the existence of the Bodak at CR 8, and unlimited Wail of the Banshee traps at CR 1. Still bad, but the AH and Elemental Weirds get all the press when the Immoth is actually far worse in my opinion. My reaction to the AH would be less anger and more "Yo DM, did you fix this or is it metagame time?"


I'll add the Cockatrice(CR 3 petrification bite) and the Basilisk(CR 5 petrification gaze). Petrification can be as bad as death at these levels, and it only takes one bad save.
I have the same disagreement on the Basilisk, but Cockatrices are like Shadows in that you kinda have to know how they work 'cause there's no warning unless the DM explicitly shows it to you while chewing a "statue," yeah.

I believe there's at least one incorporeal undead swarm whose swarm attack inflicts ability damage, but I can't quite recall what it is. Trying to figure out a way to hurt that thing was pain.
Likely the Ephemeral Swarm, another MM3 alum. Maybe the person writing a published monster didn't know that magic only hits 50% of the time vs incorporeal, maybe they thought a CR 5 shadow with 180 effective hit points and a stunlock was a good idea.

An unconventional one I'll bring up is the 1/2 CR Orc Warrior. Doesn't look like much until you realize it's falchion threatens a crit on an 18-20, and with 2d4+4 damage it stands a decent chance of permanently putting a character in the ground at level 1. Even nastier in PF where their CR got reduced to 1/3rd and they gained Orc ferocity, so they effectively have 18hp.
The perfect example of the classed humanoid complaint actually. It has +4 str above other humanoid warrior 1s, yet fails to have any change in CR. Its stats literally compare directly to CR 1 monsters, and yet the formula says CR 1/2. Which is why I immediately tell every new DM asking what to use that classed humanoids have to be rated individually instead of formula and groups of orcs are never appropriate for 1st level adventures.

There's skeletal/zombie dragons in Draconomicon that are similarly nasty. My DM thought he was a pretty funny guy with his Ancient Red Dragon zombies, until he realized that I prepared command undead and non-intelligent undead receive no save from being effectively dominated for 1/day per CL from a 2nd level slot. Pretty epic taxi.
That's the template's source, yeah.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Aboleths. Layered illusions, save-or-lose effects, oodles of minions, underwater combat, and BBEGs with endless contingencies are all things that give PCs a really hard time, and fighting an aboleth in its lair involves all of those things...and savant aboleth mages with even more illusions and Aboleth Glyphs covering every inch of their lair are even worse.

Properly run, an aboleth boss fight will have the PCs and the players questioning reality for months thereafter. The last time my current party went up against an aboleth was two campaigns and almost a real-time decade ago and they still want to somehow get revenge against it. :smallamused:

[ShurikVch]

Adamantine Clockwork Horrors, which I'm shocked no one mentioned. Sure, there is technically only one in any campaign setting/universe, but CR9 At-will Disintegrate, Implosion, and Disjunction is a legendarily bad balancing act for a reason.
Pay attention to the Organization line: at the bare minimum, encounter with AH would also include a Platinum Horror, 3 of Gold Horrors, and 5 of Electrum Horrors; according to the d20 Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/), it's Encounter Level 12
Also, their vulnerability to Shatter may be great exploit

[Bartmanhomer]

I thought Rust Monsters was the most hated monster in the 3.X edition. :confused:

[Thurbane]

I have an immense hatred of Shadows, largely because I feel they are under CRed.

Funny story: a few months back I was running a short pre-written adventure that had 10x shadows, against a party of ECL 10 monstrous characters. It was at that point they realised they were woefully unprepared for incorporeal opponents. Some nearly got killed by Str drain before they fled (the PCs were generated at ECL 10 for the adventure, so they hadn't levelled up organically).


The Runehound is another one. It has Web and shoots an Acid blast that hits like a truck. Also under CRed at, iirc, 3

We came upon one of these in a printed adventure my wife ran, and it almost wiped the floor with us. I think were were at level three at the time. There was only 2 players, each running 2 PCs. I had a Human Cleric and Hellbred Binder, and the other player had a Goblin Scout and a Dwarven Fighter.


I thought Rust Monsters was the most hated monster in the 3.X edition. :confused:


I mean, Rust Monsters are pretty universally despised for obvious reasons, but what monsters do you specifically loathe?

[Blackhawk748]

Runehound is indeed CR 3, and it should not be. Its unparalleled 500 foot blindsight means it's always aware of you before the encounter starts.

Good god, I didn't even realize it had that. It's so much worse than I thought.


We came upon one of these in a printed adventure my wife ran, and it almost wiped the floor with us. I think were were at level three at the time. There was only 2 players, each running 2 PCs. I had a Human Cleric and Hellbred Binder, and the other player had a Goblin Scout and a Dwarven Fighter.

I remember the pre written that it showed up in now, Barrow of the Forgotten King and it comes out of nowhere. You head up a ladder or something and its hiding in some bushes. We had a 6 man party and it webbed most of us. Hell the Acid bolt nearly one shot my Fighter, who even had Shield Ward for decent Touch AC.

That thing is a terror.

[Nifft]

Also, their vulnerability to Shatter may be great exploit

Puzzle monster for which the solution is Warlock?

[Telok]

Nah, the expectation is that this is the culmination of an adventure or campaign featuring clockwork horrors. Since their primary sensory 'organ' is a big gem/glass thing conered with runes in the head it's not completely unreasonable that someone figured a shatter spell might do something. Its less a puzzle monster than a weak point, like golems being weak to certain spells but supposedly immune to all the others.

Generally speaking all monsters should have some built in weakness or a way to deal with their favorite trick/tactic. Rust monsters are fine this way, as soon as you see it (famous & easily identified) you know to throw down some loose daggers or caltrops for it to eat while you back off. Then have the wizard or rogue de-metal and go wrestle it into a blanket or sack to use against the iron golem or jammed metal door elsewhere in the dungeon. I never did get the loathing that people had for something that a couple commoners with sticks can kill.

[The Viscount]

They only deal 1d8+1 damage though. Like the Medusa, an appropriately leveled Fighter should be able to nearly solo one with their eyes closed, though they are one of the only things with cold iron DR which could slow you down.

Certainly their slam is weak, but with all your attacks at 50% miss chance, it's not going to be a fun fight. Since it only has the 1 slam it can use its move action every round to move to a new square, at which point you have to guess which square it's in, and your odds plummet.

[awa]

Pay attention to the Organization line: at the bare minimum, encounter with AH would also include a Platinum Horror, 3 of Gold Horrors, and 5 of Electrum Horrors; according to the d20 Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/), it's Encounter Level 12
Also, their vulnerability to Shatter may be great exploit

while technical true by that logic it is impossible to encounter a single orc.
Just because the organization includes those exact number does not mean an encounter will include those exact numbers.

look at a hill giant tribe if your attacking an entire tribe do you expect the assumed encounter design to include 80ish separate combatants? No, the normal d&d encounter design will have the giants spread out through a cave complex with you fighting them in small groups.

Its simply a bad monster poorly designed its CR is broken, d&d does not handle swarms of individual monsters well and requiring a huge swarm of them to balance a fight is at best just a different form of bad design.
and even if it wasn't broken, even if the monsters CR was perfectly calibrated it's a monster that uses dis-junction at will, it will still be hated.

However I'm not certain if it should be one of the most hated because I know I've never fought one of those suckers, and I would be surprised if many people have. Hates an awfully strong word for a complete hypothetical.
edit
course Ive always felt the organization list just shows how they don't understand the mechanics of their own game, for an easy example look at the frost giants
If your strong enough to fight a CR 17 frost giant jarl than the ogres are going to be basically pointless

[Zaq]

A [CENSORED] teratomorph random encounter derailed our game for something on the order of a real-world YEAR. Ugh. Still pisses me off thinking about it. How does that thing even eat. Aura of plane shift. Disgusting.

Also, the cranium rat swarm. That thing is so freaking OP it's not even funny.

[Asmotherion]

I used to hate golems 10 years ago, because I didn't know how to have a fair chance with them as a dedicated caster player.

Now, it's just anything able to cast AMF, as most methodes I use to counter it will trigger a chain reaction that will turn half the table into rules lawyers, and we generally avoid that spell now.

So I guess the worst think I could encounter is a dead magic zone... I hate those for obvious reasons.

In an RP perspective, I'm not really fond of Lawful Stupid Paladins (usually product of bad DMing) and DM PC Marry Sues are the only thing I absolutelly cannot stand.

Virtually everything else is cool with me, though I have encountered some RPs that creeped me out (and not in a good way... don't ask).

[Tvtyrant]

A [CENSORED] teratomorph random encounter derailed our game for something on the order of a real-world YEAR. Ugh. Still pisses me off thinking about it. How does that thing even eat. Aura of plane shift. Disgusting.

Also, the cranium rat swarm. That thing is so freaking OP it's not even funny.

Now I want to use a Living Spell of Reality Maelstrom. "Sorry, the monster sent you all to Carceri."

[Kelb_Panthera]

The runehound's 500 ft blindight seem like it's probably a typo.

Anywho, my personal hell would be populated with LoM's tsochar. Mechancially they're not super impressive but the body-horror of a pile of worms who's single consciousness is the product of their neural networking squirming around inside you and puppeteering you without using mind-screw powers or manipulating your limbs directly is just..... brrr :smallyuk:


Mechanically, one of the scarier ones has to be my favorite ooze; the ethereal ooze from Fiend Folio. It fades in on top of you, engulfs, and fades back out, taking you with it into the ethereal. If your buddies can't pop over too, you have to face it alone. Does about 30 damage a hit and has 138 hp at cr 10.

[Fizban]

The Runehound is another one. It has Web and shoots an Acid blast that hits like a truck. Also under CRed at, iirc, 3

We came upon one of these in a printed adventure my wife ran, and it almost wiped the floor with us. I think were were at level three at the time. There was only 2 players, each running 2 PCs. I had a Human Cleric and Hellbred Binder, and the other player had a Goblin Scout and a Dwarven Fighter.

I remember the pre written that it showed up in now, Barrow of the Forgotten King and it comes out of nowhere. You head up a ladder or something and its hiding in some bushes. We had a 6 man party and it webbed most of us. Hell the Acid bolt nearly one shot my Fighter, who even had Shield Ward for decent Touch AC.

That thing is a terror.
Guess which MM? Hint: it's between 2 and 4. The module is also part of the series including The Sinister Spire, also known as a killer module, for what should be the obvious reason that all the encounters are higher than the recommended party level in addition to having favorable battlefield hazards (no bonus xp for increased difficulty) and even a wrongly CR'd custom monster. The Barrow isn't quite as bad, but still has that Runehound gank fight (again with no bonus).


Certainly their slam is weak, but with all your attacks at 50% miss chance, it's not going to be a fun fight. Since it only has the 1 slam it can use its move action every round to move to a new square, at which point you have to guess which square it's in, and your odds plummet.
You can literally match its DPS with a wand of Cure Light. It has a +6 attack bonus, on a single melee attack, which should be less than 50% to hit you even after the blindness penalties. You can ready an action to attack the appropriate square when it attacks you, boom no chasing around. It might take a while to kill if you don't have cold iron, but unless it has friends or extra hazards it's not a serious threat*. I'd be far more afraid of a Medusa, which have multiple attacks and poison, or even a Basilisk with its better bite. If you hate them you hate them, but I remain unimpressed.

*Though you can of course take that as implying that it is meant to be used with such threats to get you to keep your eyes open, YMMV.

[The Viscount]

Runehound certainly seems like it might have been a typo, but the fact that it's set aside in a unique special quality makes that less likely, plus the fact that they didn't change it in the errata, even though they changed other aspects of the statblock.

As for the bodak, you're right, it's not very dangerous without the death gaze, which is part of why I hate it so. The danger of the fight is all front-loaded. Your DM could make it harder by telling you you don't automatically know which square you got attacked from, so you have to guess. Or give the bodak levels in rogue.

I'll also throw in Nightshades. They destroy magic items, and at high levels when you've got more stuff you've invested in.

[SangoProduction]

This thread is from 2007... Dunno if this counts as thread necromancy.

[The Viscount]

Original post says yesterday?

[SangoProduction]

Original post says yesterday?

Nevermind. Checked twice. Apparently both times my eyes went to the joined date for the account, rather than the posting date.

[PhantasyPen]

It's an odd thing to say, but Kobolds. I had an old player who absolutely adored kobolds. Any time he got a chance to DM, he'd bring Kobolds into the plot somehow and give them immunity to anything you did to get rid of them because damnit man, we want real plot, not more kobold tunnels!

And then the internet fell in love with Tucker's Kobolds, and suddenly the yappy bastards are still bothering my Swordsage three levels past when they were credible threats because "muh traps"!

And don't get me started on traps.

[Calthropstu]

For a good gm?

All of them. I challenge my 4th lvl mythic tier 2 PCs with 1st level barbarians. Smart opponents played smartly, animals played using pack tactics, lower planar cratures actively spamming their special abilities... Combat is literally a fight for your life.

But the ones I get the most "grrr" from...

Are the ones who get away. The ones who realize they are losing and opt for escape. My biggest hits:

The awakened crow from Jade Regent. He escaped, set another trap for the PCs, escaped again, used his 5th level spell scroll, sand put up a solid fight. Finally, he tried to escape a final time, but was sniped at the last second just as he was approaching the tree line.
The CR19 Daemon from Bestiary 6. I used him to hound the PCs for months. 4 separate occasions they had to run from it, and finally they decided to sink some SERIOUS resources into bringing him down.
Phasmadaemon. At will long term illusions. I put out an entire illusionary fortress and lured the PCs into one horrible death trap. Being blasted by shadow evocations from behind illusionary walls? Priceless. When they finally took that guy out they cheered.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's an odd thing to say, but Kobolds. I had an old player who absolutely adored kobolds. Any time he got a chance to DM, he'd bring Kobolds into the plot somehow and give them immunity to anything you did to get rid of them because damnit man, we want real plot, not more kobold tunnels!

And then the internet fell in love with Tucker's Kobolds, and suddenly the yappy bastards are still bothering my Swordsage three levels past when they were credible threats because "muh traps"!

And don't get me started on traps.

"NOOOOOO!!! It's THEM! Run!!!" (https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/TuckersKobolds.pdf)

Whenever Kobolds appear, you know that there is going to be some serious hard/annoying stuff incoming.

[Nifft]

"NOOOOOO!!! It's THEM! Run!!!" (https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/TuckersKobolds.pdf)

Whenever Kobolds appear, you know that there is going to be some serious hard/annoying stuff incoming.

I, uh... sometimes use kobolds as nothing more than minions & mooks because they've got such a reputation in the meta-game that it's unexpected for them to be as weak as they actually are.

[tiercel]

"NOOOOOO!!! It's THEM! Run!!!" (https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/TuckersKobolds.pdf)

Whenever Kobolds appear, you know that there is going to be some serious hard/annoying stuff incoming.

Maxim 20: If you’re not willing to shell your own position, you’re not willing to win. (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2012-01-15) :wink:

(Maxim’s efficacy may vary for class-leveled kobolds, of course, but if we really are talking about classic Tucker’s Kobolds....)

[Malphegor]

Honestly, zombies and skeletons. Might be because my group’s first game had a heavy undead focus but I find them super dull as monster types go.

Zombies especially having to choose between movement or attack while it’s sensible makes fights against them on open fields frustrating for the DM as players can just keep out of their range.

Sometimes you get an interesting monster that’s been made undead, but I dunno, there’s a point where you just get burnt out hearing about another ‘shambling corpse with black ichor pouring from its open jugular’ and feel like giving the undead names and acting as if they’re old friends you’re meeting in combat.

“Hey Frank! I see you’re a troglodyte now, that’s just swell. Say, mind if I decapitate you? I kinda want to collect the full Frank set. BETTY! Stop biting my friends! I’ll get to you when I get to you!”

[Zanos]

Honestly, zombies and skeletons. Might be because my group’s first game had a heavy undead focus but I find them super dull as monster types go.
Mindless undead can be kind of dull to fight, but a DM can spice them up by having them lead by an intelligent monster. If you give them mixed equipment, like skeleton archers backed by zombies with greatswords and some armor, they can be interesting beyond just throwing spreadsheets at eachother until somebody dies. You can even make really trash zombies tie down better melee fighters by just piling on them and blocking their movement, while powerful zombies and archers attack enemy casters, or attack over their allies with reach attacks. I think there are volley fire rules somewhere that can even make masses of 1hd skeleton archers a credible threat in mid levels, as long as they're protected.

And don't get me started on awakened skeletons...

Mixing in an intelligent caster can also make it really fun interesting since they can indiscriminately drop nasty stuff like cloudkill or even direct damage spells on top of their allies. Undead are immune to a ton of spells PCs usually aren't, and even if they aren't immune to it, undead are pretty disposable. I've actually made use of that tactic pretty extensively as a player, your zombies don't complain like your fellow adventurers when you blow them up with a fireball.

But in the generic case of 'here is a pile of ogre zombies', definitely agreed that it's boring.


Zombies especially having to choose between movement or attack while it’s sensible makes fights against them on open fields frustrating for the DM as players can just keep out of their range.
Zombies can actually charge their movement speed as a standard action. If this surprises you don't worry, it surprised my players as well. :smallamused:

[ShurikVch]

Any incorporate undead probably counts. They usually are hard to kill and either use instant death or permanent status ailments.
Undead Incorporated? :smallamused:



For hatred though, the hydra, because it's been made boring. Go back to having the body be immune unless you do its full hp in one hit. Then people will actually interact with the whole head lopping off thing. Other than that its a sad, ground pounding, meat sack.
Lernaean Hydra?



They only deal 1d8+1 damage though. Like the Medusa, an appropriately leveled Fighter should be able to nearly solo one with their eyes closed, though they are one of the only things with cold iron DR which could slow you down.
Then what's about the Bodak template in the Dragon Compendium?
The example Bodak is a Five-Headed Hydra (with the same CR 8)
Major Endarian's ambush (Savage Tide):

We are all suddenly taken out of the mist like form that windwalk puts us in, and we are suddenly face a giant monkey and several undead giants on undead T-rexes. How awesome is that! They charge us with lances and they hurt a bit but nothing to bad. Then the dinos shoot lasers or something from their eyes! Most of us have no problem with this but Brodius must of caught one right in the eye, and dies on the spot. We don't have time to do anything about this, and managed to fight them off of use by using some massive anti undead Area spells.
Ambush force consisted of Major Endarian himself (CR 19 unique demon), 4 Lemorian Lacers (Juju Zombie Stone Giant Fighter 5), and were mounter on Bodak Tyrannosauruses (picture) (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/scratchpad/images/f/fe/11_EomE_14.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080501023519)


while technical true by that logic it is impossible to encounter a single orc.
A single Orc isn't considered credible treat: CR ½
Let alone the fact: to make encounter of single anything is usually a bad idea - either party would crush it via action economy, or enemy would be so powerful it could cause TPK - there are very little middle ground (if any). Monsters with "Organization: Solitary", at least, have excuse to be alone; Orcs - not so much...


Just because the organization includes those exact number does not mean an encounter will include those exact numbers.
Just because DM can ignore rules, they're don't stop being rules


look at a hill giant tribe if your attacking an entire tribe do you expect the assumed encounter design to include 80ish separate combatants? No, the normal d&d encounter design will have the giants spread out through a cave complex with you fighting them in small groups.
1. There are unknown (but, probably, notable) number of hill giant tribes in the world; but there is one and only one Adamantine Horror - there are no reasons to not play it "by the book"
2. Even maximal group - 20 Electrum Horrors, 4 Gold Horrors, 2 Platinum Horrors, and Adamantine Horror - is enough to 2-3 encounters top; I don't see any problems with it


Its simply a bad monster poorly designed its CR is broken, d&d does not handle swarms of individual monsters well and requiring a huge swarm of them to balance a fight is at best just a different form of bad design.
and even if it wasn't broken, even if the monsters CR was perfectly calibrated it's a monster that uses dis-junction at will, it will still be hated.
Look, it's kinda like fighting enemies with SoD attacks: either you have protection and laugh it off, or one bad roll may make your PC dead.
While it's, certainly, sad - the question is: "Why you PC did'n used any protection?"
Usually - outside of sudden ambush situations, or weird too-early-for-your-level encounter - there are nobody but you to blame for it
Adamantine Horror is the same: blast it with Shatter, and all will be good


course Ive always felt the organization list just shows how they don't understand the mechanics of their own game, for an easy example look at the frost giants
If your strong enough to fight a CR 17 frost giant jarl than the ogres are going to be basically pointless
You're wary of the Jarl? :smallconfused:
Winter Wolves - the most dangerous thing of the tribe, then go Young White Dragon(s), then - spellcaster, and only then - Jarl...

[Blue Jay]

Just because DM can ignore rules, they're don't stop being rules

The "Organization" line isn't really a rule for encounter design, though. From the text:


Organization
This line describes the kinds of groups the creature might form.

(From the Monster Manual, "Reading the Entries" section)

So I don't think it's fair to say that a DM using a different organization is "ignoring rules."

----

For my part, I did not like being being repeatedly spring attacked by a murderjack while walking through a miles-long cavern filled with pillars for it to hide behind. We complained like little children.

[awa]

Undead Incorporated? :smallamused:



Lernaean Hydra?



Then what's about the Bodak template in the Dragon Compendium?
The example Bodak is a Five-Headed Hydra (with the same CR 8)
Major Endarian's ambush (Savage Tide):

Ambush force consisted of Major Endarian himself (CR 19 unique demon), 4 Lemorian Lacers (Juju Zombie Stone Giant Fighter 5), and were mounter on Bodak Tyrannosauruses (picture) (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/scratchpad/images/f/fe/11_EomE_14.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080501023519)


A single Orc isn't considered credible treat: CR ½
Let alone the fact: to make encounter of single anything is usually a bad idea - either party would crush it via action economy, or enemy would be so powerful it could cause TPK - there are very little middle ground (if any). Monsters with "Organization: Solitary", at least, have excuse to be alone; Orcs - not so much...


Just because DM can ignore rules, they're don't stop being rules


1. There are unknown (but, probably, notable) number of hill giant tribes in the world; but there is one and only one Adamantine Horror - there are no reasons to not play it "by the book"
2. Even maximal group - 20 Electrum Horrors, 4 Gold Horrors, 2 Platinum Horrors, and Adamantine Horror - is enough to 2-3 encounters top; I don't see any problems with it


Look, it's kinda like fighting enemies with SoD attacks: either you have protection and laugh it off, or one bad roll may make your PC dead.
While it's, certainly, sad - the question is: "Why you PC did'n used any protection?"
Usually - outside of sudden ambush situations, or weird too-early-for-your-level encounter - there are nobody but you to blame for it
Adamantine Horror is the same: blast it with Shatter, and all will be good


You're vary of the Jarl? :smallconfused:
Winter Wolves - the most dangerous thing of the tribe, then go Young White Dragon(s), then - spellcaster, and only then - Jarl...


either its a rule that more than 9 hill giants must be accompanied by over a dozen orcs and over a dozen dire wolves, or its not a rule.

Besides organization is different than encounter. The words mean different things.

you seem to be admitting with the comments with the jarl (it’s a little unclear) that you are not supposed to fight all of the monsters in a single encounter, so which is it does the game demand that these monster be fought only in giant unwieldy mobs that the game mechanics can’t hope to actual adjudicate in anything less than a boring slog or are you supposed to fight the organization in several separate encounters?

[ShurikVch]

either its a rule that more than 9 hill giants must be accompanied by over a dozen orcs and over a dozen dire wolves, or its not a rule.
And why it shouldn't be a rule?


you seem to be admitting with the comments with the jarl (it’s a little unclear) that you are not supposed to fight all of the monsters in a single encounter, so which is it does the game demand that these monster be fought only in giant unwieldy mobs that the game mechanics can’t hope to actual adjudicate in anything less than a boring slog or are you supposed to fight the organization in several separate encounters?
It's funny you mentioned "giant unwieldy mobs", since Mob mechanics, actually, a perfectly viable mean to deal with large numbers of enemies

[Blackhawk748]

Guess which MM? Hint: it's between 2 and 4. The module is also part of the series including The Sinister Spire, also known as a killer module, for what should be the obvious reason that all the encounters are higher than the recommended party level in addition to having favorable battlefield hazards (no bonus xp for increased difficulty) and even a wrongly CR'd custom monster. The Barrow isn't quite as bad, but still has that Runehound gank fight (again with no bonus).

Huh, I ran Spire for our group (we each grabbed one of the modules in the series to run) and we didn't seem to have an issues on it. Maybe the extra party members emething.

[Quertus]

Hate? None, really. I mean, Rust Monsters were hunted to extinction on my brother's world, and Archmagi periodically perform Divinations to ensure that any that would wander through planar portals are met with a level of extreme violence (generally, i suspect, perpetrated by the questionably-optimized venerable grey elf monk-dipping Vow of Nudity Archmagi club) that would make a Dalek blanche. Any world that does otherwise, and actually allows Rust Monsters to continue existing, is suboptimal, and their "Archmagi" get laughed at at the interplanetary Wizard's Convention.

A Hydra is a great way for a party to utilize Player Agency and demonstrate their level of competence. Most parties, IME, they let the Hydra get into melee range, and suffer fatalities or even a TPK. Only a few rare parties demonstrate their "higher than average PC" competence by utilizing a superior approach, like preemptively sacrificing party members, retainers, or annoying NPCs for Dark Craft XP, then beating a hasty retreat while the Hydra munches on their corpses.

The basilisk is another great monster. Many GMs try to enforce separation of player and character knowledge by not actually describing the creature. Unfortunately, this falls apart when the GM fails to allow knowledge checks to identify the monster - or, worse, when the character should, by their background (having, say, worked at the Polymorphed petting zoo), recognize the creature, but the GM had failed to give the player the information necessary to correctly roleplay their character.

Incorporeal creatures are similarly an opportunity for the party to demonstrate their competence (or lack thereof), especially at low levels. Did you prioritize getting a magical weapon? No? Then this TPK is your opportunity to bring characters who seem like they actually have lived in this world. What is the point of writing a 20-page backstory for a character who is incoherent with the world in which they live?

And I love custom monsters. Nothing says "living world" like "this monster didn't exist yesterday". And nothing says, "you have the freedom to make whatever you want, without regard to concepts like 'logical cohesion' or versimilitude" like "your knowledge check tells you nothing".

Color blue to taste.

Short answer, there are no bad monsters, only bad GMs. I'm told that the Chinese word for "disaster" also means "opportunity". Every "bad" monster is an opportunity in disguise. Just like every bad GM is an opportunity to work out your frustrations with a clue-by-four. Operators are standing by to take your order for our new therapeutic foam-covered clue-by-fours - order now, supplies are limited. :smallwink:

[PhantasyPen]

"NOOOOOO!!! It's THEM! Run!!!" (https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/TuckersKobolds.pdf)

Whenever Kobolds appear, you know that there is going to be some serious hard/annoying stuff incoming.

It's less "RUN!" and more "That's it! I'm blowing up this campaign!"

[Zanos]

Hate? None, really. I mean, Rust Monsters were hunted to extinction on my brother's world, and Archmagi periodically perform Divinations to ensure that any that would wander through planar portals are met with a level of extreme violence (generally, i suspect, perpetrated by the questionably-optimized venerable grey elf monk-dipping Vow of Nudity Archmagi club) that would make a Dalek blanche. Any world that does otherwise, and actually allows Rust Monsters to continue existing, is suboptimal, and their "Archmagi" get laughed at at the interplanetary Wizard's Convention.
Everyone knows that Archmagis came up with rust monsters to begin with to increase the demand for their magical items. It's not like a rust monster could touch them anyway.

[Quertus]

Everyone knows that Archmagis came up with rust monsters to begin with to increase the demand for their magical items. It's not like a rust monster could touch them anyway.

Yes, they did - back when crafting items *gave you XP*. Now that Mystra's gone and died again - and taken most of the D&D multiverse with her - creating magical items actually *costs* XP, and the value of "people needing our replacement services" has shifted.

Besides, any even remotely-competent adventuring party will have paid the casting services cost to be astral projecting - and, thus, their gear immune to such hazards - from about level 3 on. :smalltongue:

Color blue to taste.

----- EDIT -----

"Monsters that destroy treasure" are, as a group, a great opportunity to ask your GM, "is WBL mandated"?

If they answer "yes", no problem: ask the GM for your destroyed items back immediately after the encounter.

If they answer "no", ask the follow-up question, "are you sure?", and then break out any of the NI wealth shenanigans - from Wall of Salt/Iron to Fabricate to Leadership to just "my venerable grey elf has spent the last how many centuries making crafting checks / selling spellcasting services?"

Enjoy!

[Fizban]

As for the bodak, you're right, it's not very dangerous without the death gaze, which is part of why I hate it so. The danger of the fight is all front-loaded. Your DM could make it harder by telling you you don't automatically know which square you got attacked from, so you have to guess. Or give the bodak levels in rogue.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, we all seem to agree that badly written monsters are the thing to hate :smallbiggrin:


Then what's about the Bodak template in the Dragon Compendium?
The example Bodak is a Five-Headed Hydra (with the same CR 8)
Oh I wouldn't consider fighting an actual full attack monster blind without at least Blind-Fight, and something that can "full attack" shuffle even less so (that's a Death Ward or nothing fight). But custom template with optimized choice of base is a far cry from the MM1 version.


Huh, I ran Spire for our group (we each grabbed one of the modules in the series to run) and we didn't seem to have an issues on it. Maybe the extra party members emething.
Yeah, extra party members are always huge, and an optimized built-together party with good tactics can handle it. But for the average table where half the characters aren't optimized and half the time the party fails to act as a unit, everything being overleveled with extra punishments is pretty brutal.


"Monsters that destroy treasure" are, as a group, a great opportunity to ask your GM, "is WBL mandated"?
I'd go with "So you know it's your job to make sure we have appropriate and sufficient magic items (DMG 212) even if you destroy them, right?" Pronouncing the parenthesis is the tricky part.

[Calthropstu]

Yes, they did - back when crafting items *gave you XP*. Now that Mystra's gone and died again - and taken most of the D&D multiverse with her - creating magical items actually *costs* XP, and the value of "people needing our replacement services" has shifted.

Besides, any even remotely-competent adventuring party will have paid the casting services cost to be astral projecting - and, thus, their gear immune to such hazards - from about level 3 on. :smalltongue:

Color blue to taste.

----- EDIT -----

"Monsters that destroy treasure" are, as a group, a great opportunity to ask your GM, "is WBL mandated"?

If they answer "yes", no problem: ask the GM for your destroyed items back immediately after the encounter.

If they answer "no", ask the follow-up question, "are you sure?", and then break out any of the NI wealth shenanigans - from Wall of Salt/Iron to Fabricate to Leadership to just "my venerable grey elf has spent the last how many centuries making crafting checks / selling spellcasting services?"

Enjoy!

At which point, a good gm decides "oh goody... wall of salt shenanigans. Price of salt and iron plummets down to a few coppers per ton as you're not the only wizard to use this and it has been around for centuries." Your venerable grey elf spent the last several centuries making craft checks. Unfortunately, he turned back to adventuring because he liked to live more than his means and his lifestyle wiped him out. Well, that and getting robbed by those damned orcs.

GMs can literally hard counter anything you try, so being antagonistic towards the gm is unhealthy for the campaign. Just take the rust monster damage and move on.

[Bronk]

Generally speaking all monsters should have some built in weakness or a way to deal with their favorite trick/tactic. Rust monsters are fine this way, as soon as you see it (famous & easily identified) you know to throw down some loose daggers or caltrops for it to eat while you back off. Then have the wizard or rogue de-metal and go wrestle it into a blanket or sack to use against the iron golem or jammed metal door elsewhere in the dungeon. I never did get the loathing that people had for something that a couple commoners with sticks can kill.

As long as you've already captured them, you can farm them for the creation of a 'rust monster wand' business...

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