Today, I Had a Wonderful Revelation! (Shivering Touch)

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

Shivering touch is a level 3 spell. Spell Storing weaponry can hold spells of level 3 and below. This means you can preload a "boss killer" weapon with shivering touch at a convenient time (like yesterday or soon before you expect a major fight) and just go WHAM!

Works even better with a Maximize Rod. A Lesser Rod of Maximize is cheapest. (Sudden Maximize also works.)

Alleluia! (Or, as John Wick said, "Whoa!")

[Troacctid]

You don't need a whole weapon. Spell-storing arrows are only 166 gp each. You can load up a whole quiver of them and unload multiple shivering touches per round with Rapid Shot.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So you want to cast shivering touch on the enemy instead of on yourself and allies so it can drain you of Dex for 1 round/level?

I...don't think that would work out well for you.

[Powerdork]

Because the target of shivering touch is "creature touched" and not "You", I strongly suspect that there's no confounding factor to delivering the expected 3d6 Dexterity damage. The spell is an active effect on the victim, not the caster.

[Fizban]

Why put it in a weapon that has to make an attack roll, when you can put it in a Glyph Seal and just slam it down at their feet?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Because the target of shivering touch is "creature touched" and not "You", I strongly suspect that there's no confounding factor to delivering the expected 3d6 Dexterity damage. The spell is an active effect on the victim, not the caster.If it worked that way, the range would be Personal and the target You. Reason being, it targets the creature touched, it lasts for 1 round/level, and it deals Dex damage. But stat damage is instantaneous and lasts until the creature rests or is healed, meaning the creature touched isn't the recipient of the Dex damage but the ability to deal Dex damage.

[Powerdork]

That conflicts with the description indicating that "The target takes 3d6 points of Dexterity damage." This is known to be a dysfunctional spell for this reason. You can search this forum and see all the threads about it. (My recommendation: "Search This Forum" -> Advanced Search -> Keywords: shivering touch; Search in thread titles only; show as Threads. you'll get 14 pages of results.)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If it worked that way, the range would be Personal and the target You. Reason being, it targets the creature touched, it lasts for 1 round/level, and it deals Dex damage. But stat damage is instantaneous and lasts until the creature rests or is healed, meaning the creature touched isn't the recipient of the Dex damage but the ability to deal Dex damage.

Hmm. I'll agree that that's a valid reading, but I think it's more natural to assume that the target referred to by "you instantly suck the heat from the target's body" refers to the target of the spell rather than just the target of the touch attack (and you are the target of the spell).

Although... balance-wise, your interpretation is less powerful, which is probably a good thing on what's widely considered a broken spell. Requiring separate actions to cast and use the spell hurts the action economy, and making it a buff with duration means you can't get around that by just holding the charge until you need it. The Dex damage becomes longer-lasting, but at rounds/CL it was already lasting the whole encounter anyway. All in all, pretty reasonable.

[Gruftzwerg]

If it worked that way, the range would be Personal and the target You. Reason being, it targets the creature touched, it lasts for 1 round/level, and it deals Dex damage. But stat damage is instantaneous and lasts until the creature rests or is healed, meaning the creature touched isn't the recipient of the Dex damage but the ability to deal Dex damage.

I once had similar thoughts about Shivering Touch, but upon deeper investigation I changed my mind and here is why.

Let us have a look at the details given by the spell:
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

On a successful melee touch attack, you instantly suck the heat from the target's body, rendering it numb. The target takes 3d6 points of Dexterity damage.

Creatures with the cold subtype are immune to the effects of shivering touch.


1. It's a touch spell whether or not it gives the ability to harm others with touch attacks or directly the harms the target.

2. The "Target" is "Creature touched" and is affected by the effect "on a successful melee touch attack, .. (fluff text). The target takes 3d6 Dex dmg.". It does nowhere mention that it gives the "creature touched" the ability to do touch attacks. It only has a regular successful melee touch attack attached to it with "on a successful melee touch attack" (nothing special for touch spells), no dysfunction here.

3. The spell effect has a "Duration of 1 round / level", which means the Dexterity damage is not (!) instantaneous and has a short duration. This is not how ability damage works normally, it's an exceptional "specific" chase for this spell only (..and iirc there are similar ability dmg effect/abilities with a duration attached to it).

4. "you instantly suck the heat from the target's body, rendering it numb. " is just fluff text. No rule changing info given. "instantly" != the keyword for "instantaneous" effect(s).

[Nifft]

Spell needs editing, badly!

[Gruftzwerg]

Spell needs editing, badly!

I guess we all can agree on that point^^

[Kelb_Panthera]

FWIW, shivering touch is the -only- 3rd level spell that can do anywhere near the kind of ability damage typically ascribed. The closest thing is investiture of the amnizu that does a d4 on touch and is limited to 10 touches at CL 20. Most everything else is resolved on a single die of damage or as though it were a contact poison (one die now, one in a minute) or requires the target to voluntarily interact with the spell effect for multiple instances of damage.

I'm pretty sure the 3d6 of shivering touch is supposed to be a penalty rather than ability damage. That simple change would resolve all of the spell's issues and still gives you a shot at bringing down dragons reasonably quick just not guaranteed anymore.

[Nifft]

Hmm.

I feel like it might be balanced at about 1d6 Dex damage immediately, and then a Fort save for another 1d6 Dex damage after a minute, as if it were a poison (but not a poison, and instead negated by Cold immunity), with some kind of mild "Shivering" debuff for the intervening rounds.

[Tvtyrant]

FWIW, shivering touch is the -only- 3rd level spell that can do anywhere near the kind of ability damage typically ascribed. The closest thing is investiture of the amnizu that does a d4 on touch and is limited to 10 touches at CL 20. Most everything else is resolved on a single die of damage or as though it were a contact poison (one die now, one in a minute) or requires the target to voluntarily interact with the spell effect for multiple instances of damage.

I'm pretty sure the 3d6 of shivering touch is supposed to be a penalty rather than ability damage. That simple change would resolve all of the spell's issues and still gives you a shot at bringing down dragons reasonably quick just not guaranteed anymore.

I was going to object due to Lahm's Finger Darts, then found out I have been wrong about how that spell works for a decade. You only get to hit one creature per finger dart...

[Jowgen]

I was going to object due to Lahm's Finger Darts, then found out I have been wrong about how that spell works for a decade. You only get to hit one creature per finger dart...

Wait, so you thought that at CL 13 you'd be able to hit 5 creatures with 5 darts each? :smallconfused:

[Tvtyrant]

Wait, so you thought that at CL 13 you'd be able to hit 5 creatures with 5 darts each? :smallconfused:

No, I thought I would hit one creature with 5 darts. Which it does, I got caught up on the " If the caster shoots multiple darts, she can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single dart can strike only one creature."

So yes, Lahm's Darts are on par with Shivering Touch but with a bigger drawback.