Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s) [Archive]

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Wrecan

2007-10-27, 10:33 AM

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is my personal estimate of the characters' stats. I will update this post as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS.

Please note that we all know that Rich isn't necessarily being careful about the rules. Funny always trumps rules. Thus, there will always be some dispute as to some of the stats as some jokes are used as evidence as abilities and other strips are used as evidence of funny.

We also discuss the stats of other characters in OOTS, such as Xykon, the Linear Guild, Miko and others. I only ask that we not discuss the stats of characters that are from other stories, movies, comic strips and so on. Thanks and welcome!

:roy:Roy Greenhilt (currently deceased)
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0490.html), Human Male (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html) Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0285.html) 13
Attributes (39 pt buy min):
Str ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html) (from magic item or level boost, analysis here)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ≥16 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
Int 14-18 (“very good”, but V's Int is "higher")
Wis ≥14 (“very good”)
Cha ≥12 (“decent”)
Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0102.html), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0064.html), Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0162.html)...
Skills (≥74): Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html)... No Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0139.html) or Sense Motive.
Abilities: Favored class (any)
Items: In Haley's Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html)

:belkar:Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0021.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html) ≥11/Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0132.html) ≥1 (character level 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html))
Attributes (4 pt buy min):
Str ≥13 (to use Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0325.html), probably higher)
Dex ~12 (no evidence, halfling)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ≤9 (I have an ... ability score penalty" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0475.html) in Profession skill checks)
Cha ≤10 (V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (10): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html), EnduranceB, Greater Two-Weapon FightingB, Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0325.html), Improved Two-Weapon FightingB, TrackB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html), Power Attack, Two-Weapon FightingB...
Skills (89): Balance ≥5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html), Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html), Craft (Trapmaking) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0468.html) (“a good Hide skill”) (+4), Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) (sufficient to intimidate cowardly eye of fear and flame), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html) (“High”) (+2), Profession (gourmet chef) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Search 0, Sense Motive 0, Speak languageB (halfling), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0119.html) 0, Survival (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0213.html) 0.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion, Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), Fast movement, Favored class (rogue), Favored enemy x3 (probably humanoid (reptilian), humanoid (human) and one other), Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
Items: Chef's Hat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0107.html), 2 small magical daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0572.html), red chalk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), lead sheet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0281.html), Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Mark of Justice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0295.html) (more of a curse than a possession, but still), Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html), Ring of Jumpng +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0294.html), string (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html)...

:durkon:Durkon Thundershield
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) Good, Dwarven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0007.html) ≥13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0556.html)
Attributes (12 pt buy min):
Str ≥14 (carries V while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0507.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~12 (no evidence, dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ≥17 (to use Control Weather scroll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0352.html))
Cha ≤10 ("low Charisma modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html)" and V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (5): Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html) (probable, though not definite)...
Skills (≥31): Heal ≥1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), Knowledge (Religion) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0052.html) ≥1 (but not much greater), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak language (dwarven)...
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids (url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0219.html), +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, bless beer, clerical spells (with homebrew domains), darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), stonecunning, turn undead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html), weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), flask, full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0025.html), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html), heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0237.html), religious vestments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html)...

:elan:Elan
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) Human Male Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0050.html) ≥12/Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html) ≥1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html)
Attributes (16 pt buy min):
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ≥14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ≤9 (V says can't "manage ... cantrips" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html); Giant says "Int penalty", Haley's Int says "possible that he raised (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0382.html)")
Wis ≤9 (Roy says he doesn't even have a "smidgen" of Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0080.html))
Cha ≥18 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0028.html)
Feats (6): Dodge, Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html), Weapon Finesse...
Skills (~56): Diplomacy, Hide (wished he "had put more ranks in Hide") (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Listen, Move Silently ≤1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html), Perform (Sing) ≥6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html), Perform (Stringed Instruments) ≥6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), Perform (wind instruments) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0198.html), Ridecc≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak Language ≤4(less than Haley's Intelligence Bonus), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0026.html)...
Abilities: bardic music (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0034.html), bardic lore (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html), charismatic strike (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html), countersong, fascinate, favored class (any), glass damage immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), inspire competence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, song of freedom, suggestion
Items: dashing outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0388.html), +3 keen rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html), lute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0471.html), Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html); no armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html).
Spells (per day ≥ 3 4 4 2; known ≥ 6 4 4 3) (no healing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)): Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0387.html), Major Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html), Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0400.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0013.html). Not Neutralize Poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html).

:haley:Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0393.html), Human Female (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0008.html) ≥13
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str 11-15 (high enough to carry Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html), but must drag Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html))
Dex 20-21 ("modifier of +5")
Con ≥14 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
Int ≥12 (received bonus languages)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (6+2): Dodge, Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), Point Blank Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html), Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Pin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), Rapid Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html).
Skills (≥159): Appraise (high), Bluff 16 (maxed ranks) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0412.html), Disable Device, Forgery, Hide ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), Knowledge (Arcane) (probable), Open Lock ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Search, Sense Motive ≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0108.html), Use Rope ≥8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html)...
Abilities: Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Favored class (any), Improved uncanny dodge, Sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html) +7d6, 2 Special abilities (both are feats), Trapfinding, Trap sense +4, Uncanny dodge
Items: 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), 1 bag of dragon hoard, 2 round gems (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0123.html), longbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), quivers of green arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0029.html) (inc'g silver and cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html)), masterworked lockpicks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0029.html), rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Isamu's sap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html), 50,000 gp and some magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html), Roy's stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) (Roy's greatsword +5 (with other unspecified bonuses) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0297.html), boots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0401.html), oil of shillelagh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), medium armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html) (justification), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), +5 Air Freshener of Pineness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html)...)...

:vaarsuvius:Vaarsuvius
Non-evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0011.html) alignment, Elven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html) Ambiguously Gendered Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html) ≥13 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html)
Attributes (12 pt buy min):
Str ≤9 ("I have a Strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0245.html)")
Dex 10-11 (“no real attack bonus” on rays)
Con ≤12 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
Int ≥18 unmodifed (admits to illithid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0031.html), may have increased)
Wis 10-12 (“moderate wisdom”)
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html) with “poor charisma”)
Feats (9): AlertnessB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html), Empowered Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Martial Weapon ProficiencyB (composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword), Quickened Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Scribe ScrollB... Not Silent Spell or Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0161.html)
Skills (97): Concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html)≤15, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen (+2), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Spot (+2), Search 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0030.html) (+2), Speak language (elven), Spellcraft...
Abilities: +2 v enchantment, Barred school (Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0340.html) and Necromancy), Specialized school (Evocation), Favored class (wizard), Immune to sleep, Low-light vision, Summon familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html)
Items: Ring of Wizardry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html) (probably affects level 3 spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html)), raven familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html), golden circlet, robes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), many (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html) spellbooks, ink, paper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), two small gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0123.html), some item that increases Intelligence by at least 4. no potions or scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html)...
Spells (per day -- 4+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 2+1): Banishment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html), Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0104.html), Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0106.html), Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0335.html), Cone of Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html), Crushing Despair (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html), Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0116.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html), Explosive Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0092.html), Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Fire Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0397.html), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), Haste (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html), Hold Portal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0157.html), discount Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0088.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Mass Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html). Mass Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Mass Enlarge Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0058.html), Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Prismatic Spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html), Vampiric Touch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)...

Wrecan

2007-10-27, 10:34 AM

Frequently Asked Questions
Q. Where did you get this idea?
A. The first incarnation of this thread was started by runolfr in the old version of the message boards. Everybody is always talking about this stuff and this thread is intended to be a central repository for all discussions of the stats of OOTS and the various NPCs (though I'm only keeping track of OOTS stats). You can read the prior version of this thread here:
Class and Level Geekery
Class and Level Geekery II.

Q. Doesn't Comic X demonstrate Vaarsuvius' gender?
A. No. No! NO! Please read the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10). Better yet, I'll quote it verbatim:

Q: Is Vaarsuvius male or female?

A: I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception, not the actual reality of the situation.

Q. When do the OOTS PCs level up?
A. OOTS is 10th level some time before episode 1, 11th level at episode 12, 12th level at 124, 13th level by 397 (Elan's 13th level was in his new prestige class), and Belkar hit 14th level in 515. Probably the rest hit 14th level sometime earlier as Belkar suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing and was unable to kill living creatures while in Azure City. If Roy is raised from the dead, he will likely be reduced to 12th level.

Q. Why don't you list character ages?
A. A few reasons. First, age is only relevant in D&D if one changes Age Categories. As far as we can tell, everybody is in the "Adult" Age category. Second, the Giant has not been very, how shall we say, consistent, on character ages. Since there's no mechanical (read geeky) benefit/penalty to any specific age, unless someone changes age category in a strip, we're not tracking it.

Q. In Comic 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html), Elan praises his "six new skill points". Since human bards get 7+Int skill points per level, doesn't this mean that he has an Int penalty of -1 and an Intelligence of 8 or 9?
A. No. According to the Giant, he's referring to the the new rule for bards and skill points, which is 6/level (not including racial and ability bonuses), and that's 7+Int skill points per level, not per edition conversion. Elan hadn't just gained a level.

Q. Does Comic 17 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) mean that Belkar has a sonic sunder attack?
A. No. it would ruin the joke if Belkar was referring to some sonic attack, as opposed to making fun of the flimsiness of the standard rapier.

Q. In Comic 28 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html), didn't Haley claim to have a Charisma of 18?
A. She was talking about Elan.

Q. In Comic 31 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html), Roy is more appetizing than Vaarsuvius to the illithid. Doesn't this mean Roy should have a higher Intelligence than Vaarsuvius?
A. No. The illithid apparently measures the aggregate of all the mental Abilities (Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma). V has a high Intelligence, but average Wisdom and low Charisma. Roy needs to have a higher aggregate score.

Q. In Comic 34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), Roy says Elan's bardic bonus is +1, meaning he is no greater than 8th level. Doesn't this make him two levels lower than the rest of the party?
A. Since everybody gains a level at the same time (more or less) in Comic 124 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html), it seems everybody is the same level. Otherwise, they'd increase in level in staggered bits. So Comic 124 trumps Comic 34. And since we know the party level was 11 at the time, Elan's bardic bonus is higher than +1, notwithstanding what Roy says.

Q. In Comic 38 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Durkon tells Roy he's paralyzed because he was poisoned 17 times with Strength poison. Doesn't this mean Roy's Stength is 17?
A. No. First poison inflicts variable Ability Damage. Being poisoned 17 times would mean he lost dozens of Strengh points. Second, your Strength can never be reduced below 0, no matter how much you're poisoned. The number 17 was chosen for its funny. It cannot indicate Roy's Strength.

Q. Doesn't Comic 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) indicate Vaarsuvius has Time Stop, Meteor Swarm and Wish in the spellbook?
A. No. Vaarsuvius was not even looking at the spellbook. It was likely an attempt to suggest the most outrageous spells for Zz'ditri's variant Fly spell. The evidence, at best, in inconclusive.

Q. In Comic 58 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Belkar uses a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds, which requires him to have a Wisdom of 14. Since Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom on him (which boosts your Wisdom by 4), he must have a Wisdom of 10. Why do you have him at less?
A. That comic was trumped by the more recent Comic 475 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) in which Belkar admits to having an Ability score penalty to Profession checks. Since Wisdom is the Ability that modified Profession, Belkar cannot have a Wisdom above 9. So we are ignoring Comic 58 as one of those times where "funny trumps rules."

Q. Wait a minute. Cure Serious Wounds is only a third-level spell on the clerical spell list. And since it was Durkon's scroll and Durkon is a cleric, wouldn't that mean Belkar only needed a 13 Wisdom, which means a 9 Wisdom before Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom?
A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.

Q. In Comic 73 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), Thor acts pretty chaotically and he's listed as Chaotic Good in Deities and Demigods. Since clerics cannot be more than one step removed from their deity, how can Durkon be lawful?
A. The Thor in OOTS is not the Thor in Deities and Demigods. Thor is more likely Neutral Good with lots of Lawful and Chaotic characteristics. Either way, Durkon, is clearly Lawful Good.

Q. Where's Elan's coffee maker (Comic 81 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)), espresto box (Comic 84 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)), squirrel, paddleball game, lantern, roller skate or jam (Comic 206 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html))?
A. From Comic 471 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), Elan appears to have lost all of his equipment when Nale temporarily switched places with him. So only the equipment he has been seen with since his escape from prison in Comic 387 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) will be listed.

Q. From Comic 127 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), You use Vaarsuvius' statement that Elan can't use cantrips as evidence that Elan has under a 10 Intelligence. But Elan casts spells all the time.
A. In D&D, wizards use Intelligence to cast spells and require Intelligence 10 to cast cantrips. Bards use Charisma. Vaarsuvius is saying Elan doesn't have the Intelligence needed to cast cantrips as a Wizard.

Q. In Comic 170 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0170.html), Durkon gets a golden tankard. Why isn't that on his possessions?
A. It's too big for Durkon to carry, so we assume it was left behind. If it shows up again, it will be placed on the possessions list.

Q. In Comic 188 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), doesn't Vaarsuvius demonstrate the skill Speak Language (draconic)?
A. Not necessarily. Vaarsuvius may also have ranks in Decipher Script (for which evidence has been found in one of the Dragon Magazine strips).

Q. In Comic 245 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html), Vaarsuvius and Haley only manage to save one bag of treasure. Why do you still list Haley as having eight bags of holding?
A. The bag they rescued is not a bag of holding, but a regular sack of treasure. We know this because in Comic 130 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) we see what a bag of holding looks like, and it doesn't look like the sack of treasure in Comic 245. Haley keeps her bags of holding on her person. It wouldn't have needed rescuing.

Q. In Comic 249 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), Belkar talks about Roy's "heavy armor". Why is he listed with only Medium armor?
A. In order for Roy carrying Durkon (as he does in Comic 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html)) to make sense, Roy would need to be wearing nothing heavier than Medium armor. Otherwise, Roy runs no faster than Durkon. Thus, we assume Belkar is speaking descriptively about Roy's armor, in accordance with his Craft Disturbing Mental Images Feat.

Q. In Comic 446 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html), Vaarsuvius seems to cast chain lightning, no?
A. No. That's just an artistic rendition of a standard lightning bolt.

Chrismith

2007-10-27, 11:50 AM

Unless anyone has any objections, I'm going to go ahead and copy over stats for the other characters that were in the previous thread, with some updates. If anyone disagrees with anything I've changed, feel free to discuss.

Team Evil

:redcloak: Redcloak
Lawful Evil, Goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html)Male, Cleric 15+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 20+ (save DC for L7 spell is >21 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html))
Cha 12+ (repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) use (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) Rebuke Undead)
Feats (5+): Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), Craft Wonderous Item (helped Xykon create his phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html))
Skills (36+): Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html); +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Abilities: Bolster/Rebuke/Command Undead, two Domains (Destruction and Law (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html)), darkvision 60'.
Items: Unholy symbol (also Xykon’s phylactery), Crimson Mantle, spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html).

:xykon: Xykon
Chaotic Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer 21+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)
Attributes:
Str 14+ (Able to carry two goblins and an elf while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con n/a (undead)
Int ~13 (likely started at 8 or 9, gets +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
Wis ~13 (likely started at 8 or 9, gets +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
Cha 28+ (based on Start of Darkness events)
Feats (7+): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), some sort of crafting feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)
Skills (46+): Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks, Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge (Arcana) 24+ (Prereqs for Epic Spellcasting feat)
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Items: Widescreen crystal ball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) that radiates evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) likely belonging to Dorukan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html).
SoD spoiler:
Also has (or had) a gem (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html) containing the souls of Dorukan and Lirian.
Spells Known: Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Energy Drain (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html),
Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html), Shatter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Soul Bind (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Symbol of Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), Symbol of Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png Tsukiko
Evil, Human Female, Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html) 3+ / Cleric 3+ / Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) 6+
(minimum CL 9 for both divine and arcane spells)
Attributes:
Str 10+ (no evidence)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no evidence)
Int 15+ (minimum to cast Teleport as a wizard)
Wis 15+ (minimum to cast Flame Strike as a cleric)
Cha 10+ (no evidence, assumed not to be a Sorcerer or Favored Soul)
Feats (6+): Scribe scroll, Quicken Spell
Skills (42+): Knowledge (arcana) 6+, Knowledge (religion) 6+ (Requirements for Mystic Theurge)
Abilities: Unknown.
Items: Unknown.
Spells Known: Fly, Lightning Bolt, Shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), Fireball, Invisibility, Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) Fire Orb, Lesser Acid Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Cold Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html)

:mitd: Monster in the Darkness
Little is known about the MitD, but what we do know about its stats is summarized below.

Probably medium- or large-sized (fits under an umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html), too tall to be a kobold (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html))
Has a high Str (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)
Has a low Wis, but possibly high Int (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html)
Has high damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)
Possesses the ability to cause an earthquake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) by stomping the ground
Has some sort of shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) ability
Seemingly non-evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html)

The Linear Guild

:nale: Nale
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Human Male, Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 1+ - Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 1+ - Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 6+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha 15+ (Minimum to cast sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html))
Feats (8): Unknown.
Skills (49+): Bluff
Abilities: Sneak attack +1d6 (or more), trapfinding
Items: Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), +3 Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html) (currently held by Cliffport PD), chain shirt (probably masterwork to minimize spell failure chances), cure potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html).
Known Spells: Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html). Nale claims (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) to specialize in Enchantment spells.

:sabine: Sabine
Evil, possibly a Succubus or Erinyes, Outsider, Rogue 1+ (Stated in No Cure for the Paladin Blues)
Attributes:
Str =18 (carried Nale and Thog while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (5): Unknown
Skills (120+): Unknown
Abilities: Energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), shape-shifting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), DR against either cold iron or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) (or both? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)), plane shift 1/day
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)Items: Sabine carried a crossbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) in the Dungeon of Dorukan, but hasn't been seen with it lately.

:thog: Thog
Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Orc, Fighter 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) - Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) 10
Attributes:
Str 14+ (able to carry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3735368&postcount=425) Hilgya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) while flying, likely higher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int 8 or lower ("Int was his dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html).")
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Feats (7): 2 Fighter bonus feats
Skills (56+): Unknown
Abilities: Fast movement, rage 3/day, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +3, DR 2/-, Darkvision, Orc Blood.
Items: +3 Great Axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html) (currently held by Cliffport PD), medium armor, Celine Dion album (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html), Leprechaun suit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html).

Part-time Members

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Leeky.png Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil, Male Gnome, Druid 14+ (cast Firestorm and Heal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html))
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 17+ (Minimum to cast Fire Storm)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (5): Leadership (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)
Skills (66+): Unknown
Abilities: Low-Light Vision; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions; +1 DC for all saving throws against illusion spells cast; +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids; +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type; +2 racial bonus on Listen checks; +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks; spell-Like abilities (CL 1; save DC 10 + Cha modifier + spell level): 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute), dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation; wild shape (4/day, large/tiny/plant); venom immunity; resist nature's lure; trackless step; woodland stride; wild empathy; nature sense; animal companion.
Items: Staff (properties unknown, broken by Durkon's thunderclap)

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1308/pompeypb9.jpg Pompey
Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Elf, Wizard (Conjurer) 4+
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int 12+ (Minimum to cast Summon Monster II (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html))
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (3): Scribe scroll, possibly Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html) and/or Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html)
Skills (55+): Unknown
Abilities: Immune to sleep spells and similar magical effects; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects; Low-Light Vision; +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks; +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
Items: Unknown
Spells Known: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html), Summon Monster II, at least 5 touch-range buff spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) -- lowest-level possibilities are Mage Armor, Protection from Good, Protection from Law, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4913/yokyokbg4.jpg Yokyok (Deceased)

Possibly Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html), Male Kobold, Unknown Class (may include Duellist PrC)
Items: Rapier
This is probably all we'll ever know about Yokyok, since he was killed by a swarm of greedy adventurers before really demonstrating his abilities and his head made into a chip bowl by Belkar.

Hilgya
Female Dwarf, Cleric 7+
Hilgya is known to worship Loki, and one of her domains is Fire. The other is likely chaos.
Wis 14+ (Minimum to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html))
Items: Horned helment, armor, shield, holy symbol of Loki

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/drizzle.png Zz'dtri
Male Drow, Wizard 11+
Transmuter (Cast six Fly spells in one day), barred schools (two of: Conjuration, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy)
Int 16+ (Minimum to cast Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html))
Feats: possibly Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapons: Pair of scimitars
Spells: Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), Fly (3.0 version) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Wall of Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html). Unspecified attack spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) characterized by green lightning.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9580/yikyikpy8.jpg Yikyik (Deceased)

Male Kobold, Ranger
Feats: Combat Reflexes

The Sapphire Guard

:miko: Miko Miyazaki (deceased)

Lawful Good, Human Female, Monk 2 / Fallen Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) 12-14 (based on number of attacks per round)
Attributes:
Str 13+ (to wield Katana one-handed)
Dex 17+ (required for Improved 2-Weapon Fighting)
Con 12+ (no clear evidence, but has high damage capacity)
Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
Wis 11+ (Minimum to cast Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639))
Cha 14+ (effective Divine Grace and substantial Laying On Hands)
Feats (6-7): Two-Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword/Katana), Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html), Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html)
Skills (30+): Ride, Survival +1, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely), Knowledge (the Planes) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html).
Abilities: Evasion, flurry of blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, (Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows). Unavailable Paladin abilities spoilered-out.

Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Windstriker), remove disease 2/week, smite evil 3/day, spells (1/1).

Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html), Katana, Wakizashi, known to carry Cure potions.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Hinjo
Lawful Good, Human Male, Paladin 11+ (appears to have 3 attacks/round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html))
Attributes:
Str 10+ (no evidence)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no clear evidence, though likely high)
Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
Wis 12+ (has a good will save (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), otherwise unknown)
Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (28+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Dire Wolf "Argent"), remove disease, smite evil , spells (?).
Items: Cold-iron katana, silver katana, magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.pngO-Chul
Lawful Good, Human Male, Fighter/Paladin. Level unknown, but likely 140+ hit points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4100390&postcount=126). Was lower level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) prior to captivity.
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~23-27 (Has a Con in the mid-20's (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html))
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (He admits that Cha is his dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html))
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (39+): Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Swim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html),
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (?), remove disease, smite evil, spells (?).
Items: None (currently in POW status).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/lien.png Lien
Lawful Good, Human Female, Paladin 6+ (has a large shark mount (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html)); lower level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)
Attributes:
Str 13+ (Prequisite for cleave)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no evidence)
Int 10+ (no evidence)
Wis 10+ (no evidence)
Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
Feats (4+): Weapon Focus (Longspear), Power Attack, Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html)
Skills (27+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Large Shark "Razor"), smite evil , spells (?).
Items: Longspear, magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html).

Other Characters
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png Celia
Female Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), 6+ HD (can cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html))
Cha 13+
Abilities: Casts sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), can detect magic auras (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)
Spells known: Alter Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/julia.png Julia Greenhilt
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html) Human Female, Wizard 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html)
Str ~10 (No evidence)
Dex ~10 (No evidence)
Con ~10 (No evidence)
Int 15+ (Minimum to cast sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) from a scroll)
Wis ~10 (No evidence)
Cha ~10 (No evidence)
Feats (3): Unknown
Skills (24+): Unknown
Spells known: Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9168/samrg8.png Samantha (Deceased)

Evil, Human Female, Sorcerer 12+ (Can cast at least 3 level 6 spells per day)
Str ~10 (No evidence)
Dex ~10 (No evidence)
Con ~10 (No evidence)
Int ~10 (No evidence)
Wis ~10 (No evidence)
Cha 20-21 (Sorcerer with high save DCs)
Feats (5): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), possibly Spell Focus (Evocation) and Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) (her level 3 save DCs are "too high (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)" for Haley); not Still Spell or Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html).
Skills (42+): Unknown
Spells known: Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Magic Missle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)

Morty

2007-10-27, 11:55 AM

I don't really think we can use "listed scroes for a goblin" for Redcloak more than we can use listed elf scores for V. And I'd put Reddie's Int at least above 12.

MCerberus

2007-10-27, 12:00 PM

Considering Xykon's unorthodox way of becoming a Lich, does he really have CWI?

Also, this thread should have a subtitle - Revenge of the Geeks?

Chrismith

2007-10-27, 12:13 PM

I don't really think we can use "listed scroes for a goblin" for Redcloak more than we can use listed elf scores for V. And I'd put Reddie's Int at least above 12.

I think using the listed scores for a goblin is more accurate than just using 10-10-10. 10 is the average score for a human, after all, not a goblin. Really, putting a score at all is a little misleading, since we really don't have any solid indications of his abilities, but if we're going to make an estimate then it makes more sense to use the average scores for a goblin that those for a human. Though I suppose it might make more sense to use the ability adjustments for a PC goblin rather than the stats for an NPC.

Considering Xykon's unorthodox way of becoming a Lich, does he really have CWI?

Redcloak did help him, but there's no indication that Xykon didn't actually prepare the phylactery himself, and (as far as I know) no indication in the rules that anyone else can prepare it.

Nerdanel

2007-10-27, 12:34 PM

Vectner

2007-10-27, 12:48 PM

I don't feel :thog: is Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral I would say.

Porthos

2007-10-27, 01:00 PM

Morty

2007-10-27, 01:00 PM

I think using the listed scores for a goblin is more accurate than just using 10-10-10. 10 is the average score for a human, after all, not a goblin. Really, putting a score at all is a little misleading, since we really don't have any solid indications of his abilities, but if we're going to make an estimate then it makes more sense to use the average scores for a goblin that those for a human. Though I suppose it might make more sense to use the ability adjustments for a PC goblin rather than the stats for an NPC.

I'd say there should be just 10 and "no evidence", with note that Strenght is likely to be low and Dexterity is probably high.

I don't feel :thog: is Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral I would say.

Not this again...
Thog kills people with glee and laugh. He obeys Nale's evil orders without hesitation. He's evil.

Chrismith

2007-10-27, 01:00 PM

Is there really enough uncertainty to justify having Xykon as simply "Evil" instead of Chaotic Evil? I think Xykon has consistently shown plenty of chaotic behavior and little that could be called lawful. He is impulsive, easily bored, and not one to plan beyond the bare minimum. (This was even more pronounced when he was younger and his mental stats hadn't benefited from aging to venerable and then lichifying.) He even makes fun of Redcloak's Lawful tendency for color-coded parchments.

Two good points here. First, I agree that Xykon should be listed as Chaotic. (I actually didn't notice that he wasn't when I was copying his stats over.)

Second, Xykon was venerable when he became a lich, meaning that he should have -6 Str and Dex (he doesn't have a Con score anymore) and +3 Wis, Int, and Cha. That should probably be taken into account in his stats. Since he also got +2 to each mental stat when becoming a lich, his Int and Wis would be at 15, assuming they both started at 10 (which seems likely). Having a Cha of 28 also makes sense -- if he started at 18 and put each of his 5 earned points into it, it would wind up at 28 after growing old and becoming a lich.

However, it's possible that becoming a lich removed the Str and Dex penalties.

Minor SoD spoilers:
When Xykon completes his transformation into a lich, we see him doing a little cartwheel/handstand thing. "Oh, man! I haven't felt this good since...ever! Look at how limber I am! Suck it hard, arthritis!" We later see him pick up Right-eye with one hand, and throw him at Redcloak with such force that both goblins are knocked through a window and flung 10-20 feet.

Since being a lich gives no Str or Dex bonuses, and Xykon seems to have no problems with either of those stats, we can conclude that he no longer suffers a penalty to these abilities due to age.

I don't feel :thog: is Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral I would say.

He goes on murderous rampages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html) when not calmed with ice cream. Killing people out of boredom is evil.

Wrecan

2007-10-27, 01:02 PM

Chrismith, you might want to think about creating a FAQ post also.

MCerberus

2007-10-27, 01:03 PM

Well :thog: does have a horrible sense motive and int score. His evil actions stem a lot from Nale and he might be convincing Thog the actions aren't evil. What alignment would bust out of jail to protect his best buddy from an evil breadcrumb devouring witch?

</prothogrant>

Porthos

2007-10-27, 01:32 PM

Just to completely smash the Thog = Chaotic Neutral argument....

In Rich's World, Evil people can form deep and lasting friendships.

I know that some gamers like to pull out the "He helped a friend!! That's a Good act, and therefore <Insert Character Here> is Neutral!!!" card.

Well, no, it isn't. As Rich commented in one of his gaming articles here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html) villains can have just the same range of emotional needs that everyone else has. Sure you can make a villain an amoral psychopath like Xykon. But you can also make them a complicated villain like Redcloak.

So while Thog may every once in a while do something that might be considered Good, it is far outweighed by the heinous Evil he commits (not to mention that the friends he usually tries to help are Evil).

Thog knows Right from Wrong.... He just doesn't care

Other Thog defenders point to his "childlike" qualities, as if that absolved him of his crimes. They will even say that he is literally to stupid to know any better. Well, this is flat out wrong. First off, in DnD anyone who has an INT score over 2 has an alignment (or rather, anyone over an INT of 2 is considered to have at least some level of "human" intellegence and is therefore not automatically pegged as True Neutral, like animals are). This is under the theory that, at some fundamental level, the creature in question knows Right from Wrong. Besides, Thog already knows when he is guilty of a crime, and readily admits it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html) Furthermore, we have seen children with alignments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html), so even if Thog was found to have the intellect of a child, it doesn't excuse his behavior.

Thog's Ideas of What Things Are, Aren't Exactly What They Seem

Of course, some people will pull out the Puppy Card and say, anyone who likes Puppies can't be all bad. I will simply remind people that what Thog thinks of as a Puppy isn't exactly what other people might think of when it comes to that term (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html). In other words, his claims that he would love to have Puppies as pets and that he would be a "responsible parent" don't exactly stand up to scrutiny.

Yes Thog is Carefree and Funny.... So What

Finally, I think that a lot of people peg Thog as CN because they see him as a Happy Go-Lucky Free Spirit who just follows his whims. And hey, that's what Chaotic Neutral characters do, right? Well yeah, sure. But if Mr. Happy Go-Lucky Free Spirit spends all of his time on murderous rampages filled with wanton slaughter, then you know what? He ain't Chaotic Neutral. That person is Chaotic Evil.

But lets not forget something. Much like Belkar, Thog exists for us to laugh at his antics. Thog is around to be the Comic Relief of the Linear Guild, and for us to smirk at the Violent Out-of-Control Drunken Idiotic Barbarian. And Thog is also supposed to be a contrast to the machiavellian plotting of Nale and the streetwise seductive nature of Sabine. He also is showing a different face of Evil than the other villains that populate the OotS, that is the Loyal Henchman Who Is Hanging Out With Team Evil Coz He likes Them, And He Gets To Slaughter People.

-------------------------------

And this doesn't even get into the whole "He aids and abets the schemes of Evil characters" arguments. Yes, he befriended Not-Nale. And yes, he asked for a hug when the OotS defeated Nale. This just shows that he easily imprints on people. However his time alone with Roy (when they were going after the various sigils) shows that he has very violent impulses. And if that didn't show it, I would think that Thog attacking Haley when Elan implored him not to, would further convince people.

Now, under the right circumstances (say always hanging out with Elan and never coming near Nale), could Thog have eventually become Chaotic Neutral? Perhaps. But from his actions and his intentions, Thog is currently Chaotic Evil, and it doesn't look like that will change any time soon. Besides, we literally have no evidence that Elan could have been a good enough example on Thog to change his ways for more than a short period of time.

Kish

2007-10-27, 01:39 PM

:sabine: Sabine
Chaotic Evil, Succubus (assumed from appearance and energy drain),
Sabine's identity as a demon or a devil being ambiguous, apparently even to Nale, is a running gag; as such, I think it's a mistake to treat it as not ambiguous here.

Koraks

2007-10-27, 02:22 PM

About Belkar's strenght. I don't know if could be considered solid proof but let's see. First, unless I am mistaken, Blekar fights with tiny daggers ever since the weapon shrinkage (tee hee! so tiny (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)). So that would be 1d2 damage. Now here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html), and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html), he is shown killing the hobs in one slash. In the second one he is shown chopping one of the hobs leg, but we don't see his eyes turn to x's, although he is still crippled. First level Hobgoblins have an average hp of 6. In order to kill hobs in one shot with tiny daggers, he would need a strength bonus of +4 and roll maximum damage with the daggers, because a + 5 bonus would mean he would always kill them even with a one, or that some hobs have more hp. Either that or goblinoïds are a favorite enemy. That would at least put his strenght at more then 13. What do you boys and girls think?

Chrismith

2007-10-27, 02:34 PM

Sabine's identity as a demon or a devil being ambiguous, apparently even to Nale, is a running gag; as such, I think it's a mistake to treat it as not ambiguous here.

I agree, it's been changed. I also removed all of her "standard" succubus skills and feats, and changed her special abilities from the succubus ones to the the ones we have actually seen her use. I left the stats the same, just to use as an estimate.

About Belkar's strenght. I don't know if could be considered solid proof but let's see. First, unless I am mistaken, Blekar fights with tiny daggers ever since the weapon shrinkage (tee hee! so tiny (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)). So that would be 1d2 damage.

In 3.0, Belkar would have been using regular daggers, which did 1d4 damage. When the "weapon shrinkage" occurred, his daggers should have gone from medium size to small size -- I see no reason to assume they are tiny. Small daggers do 1d3 damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons), so he can one-shot a 6hp hobbo if he rolls maximum damage.

RMS Oceanic

2007-10-27, 02:42 PM

Koraks

2007-10-27, 02:42 PM

In 3.0, Belkar would have been using regular daggers, which did 1d4 damage. When the "weapon shrinkage" occurred, his daggers should have gone from medium size to small size -- I see no reason to assume they are tiny. Small daggers do 1d3 damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons), so he can one-shot a 6hp hobbo if he rolls maximum damage.

D'oh! I've been mislead by Haley's «so tiny». Well, still... He one shot's a little too often for it to be only when he max damages. On a d3 (d6/2) max damage is 2 chances out of 6. He just seems to be stonger than that to me.

Chronos

2007-10-27, 03:31 PM

Concerning Xykon's Craft Wondrous Items feat:
Redcloak did help him, but there's no indication that Xykon didn't actually prepare the phylactery himself, and (as far as I know) no indication in the rules that anyone else can prepare it.A phylactery is a type of magic item, and characters can collaborate to make a magic item (though I'm not finding the rules for it at the moment). The item creation feats encompass the knowledge of how to create the items, and Xykon apparently doesn't know how to create a phylactery on his own. I'd say that they collaborated on its creation, with Redcloak providing the feat, and Xykon providing the needed caster level and probably the XP. Since he's one of the creators, he satisfies the Lich requirement of "must create phylactery himself".

A note on statting Redcloak, in general (SoD spoilers):We can determine almost nothing about Redcloak himself, since he's wearing a major artifact. Anything that he does, we don't really know whether it's him doing it, or the Mantle. We might even actually want to try to stat out the Mantle itself, independently of its current wearer.

Soups

2007-10-27, 03:46 PM

D'oh! I've been mislead by Haley's «so tiny». Well, still... He one shot's a little too often for it to be only when he max damages. On a d3 (d6/2) max damage is 2 chances out of 6. He just seems to be stonger than that to me.

Sadly, it is reeeeeeally hard to make story into D&D compatible. He has small daggers, since he can hit Miko with a thrown dagger and hits almost every enemy. Also, his hate for Troglodites and Goblins probably puts those on his Fav enemy list. If I had to guess, in order to illustrate his hate for trogs and gobos, Rich has him mostly one shot them.

Chrismith

2007-10-27, 03:54 PM

I'd say Hinjo has a charisma of at least 14. When battling the Hecueva he boasts about "making any save you can dish out", and making a Will save against a DC 19 (minimum 10 + 6 + 3) is no easy feat for somebody with poor will progression, even a level eleven character. His confidence in that respect indicates a decent-to-high charisma. We put Miko's Charisma at 14, so I think it makes sense to do the same for him.

Do you mean Wisdom? Will saves are based on Wis, not Cha. That is a good point though; I've updated Hinjo's Wisdom.

EDIT: D'oh, paladins get to add Charisma to their saves, don't they? Well, in any case, he has either a good wisdom or a good charisma, or both, but we don't know anything for sure yet.

And Miko's Wisdom is guaranteed at least 11, because in Giant's description of the fight between her and the Order, she casts Cure Light Wounds on her and Windstiker.

Sabine's strength needs raising to at least 18, and possibly more. She carried Nale, Thog and a Longsword all at once, for a combined minimum weight of 272 lbs. 18 strength is needed to carry this much as a heavy weight, and I'm not sure how much strength would be needed to fly carrying that much.

Finally, I think all Nale and Thog's pre-Cliffport items should be removed. It looks like they're not going back to get them.

A nice catch on Miko. Sabine's strength has been the subject of some controversy; there are some people who claim her strength has to be in the high 20s. I'm going to be conservative and put it at 18.

Concerning Xykon's Craft Wondrous Items feat:A phylactery is a type of magic item, and characters can collaborate to make a magic item (though I'm not finding the rules for it at the moment). The item creation feats encompass the knowledge of how to create the items, and Xykon apparently doesn't know how to create a phylactery on his own. I'd say that they collaborated on its creation, with Redcloak providing the feat, and Xykon providing the needed caster level and probably the XP. Since he's one of the creators, he satisfies the Lich requirement of "must create phylactery himself".

A good point, and it makes sense. I'd like to see the rules though, find them and I'll make the change.

A note on statting Redcloak, in general (SoD spoilers):We can determine almost nothing about Redcloak himself, since he's wearing a major artifact. Anything that he does, we don't really know whether it's him doing it, or the Mantle. We might even actually want to try to stat out the Mantle itself, independently of its current wearer.

This is irrelevant right now: With the exception of a brief scene in SoD, he haven't seen Redcloak without the Mantle, and we haven't seen the Mantle without Redcloak. For our purposes, they may as well be one and the same. Now, if the mantle is transferred to someone else, then it might be worth our time to try to figure out what powers the mantle has and what Redcloak's true stats are. But for now, there's nothing we can say on the matter.

Also, I added Samantha's stats. Most of it is pretty cut and dry from the comic, but I made a note that she may have Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus. Her save DC for Lightning Bolt, which should be around 18, is "too high" for Haley, who would have had a reflex save bonus of at least 11 at the time. So either Samantha is a few levels above 12, she has a very high Charisma, or she has some other way of boosting DCs (or Haley just botched her roll).

The Extinguisher

2007-10-27, 04:04 PM

Is Roy's weapon a "bane of those forsaken by the gods"? If it was, wouldn't it provide extra damage all the time? And how are undead forsaken by the gods?

I'm just wondering here. Couldn't it have some sort of burst effect (is that the right term?) on a critical and/or when Roy's really pissed off?

Nerdanel

2007-10-27, 04:08 PM

Crazy idea: My guess for Sabine is that she's a Lawful Evil Half-Fiend Succubus, where Half-Fiend means half-Erinyes or some other devil. Nale could even be aware of her type if she's vulnerable BOTH to silver and cold iron. But crazy ideas don't really belong here, so...

Non-crazy idea: I think Xykon knows the haste spell.

SoD spoiler:

In the battle between them, Xykon gets off twice as many spells than Dorukan. I think the explanation is that Xykon had cast haste offscreen, and since this was before the conversion to 3.5, the haste he cast was the massively overpowered 3.0 version.

I think quickened spells are not the explanation, since a) Xykon never once says "quickened" in front of energy drain, and b) energy drain is a ninth level spell, and quickened it would be 13th level. That would mean Xykon had taken the improved spell capacity epic feat at the very least four times and probably more, which would push his absolute minimum level to 26, which I think most would agree is too high.

Also, I think we can say that Redcloak has some ranks in diplomacy. I would quote from SoD except I don't have the book with me at the moment. It's in the scene when they meet Xykon for the first time. Right-Eye tries to use untrained diplomacy on Xykon, and Redcloak has to come in and save the situation. He comments that he has ranks in diplomacy, unlike Right-Eye.

Porthos

2007-10-27, 04:10 PM

(Re: Craft Wonderous Item)

A good point, and it makes sense. I'd like to see the rules though, find them and I'll make the change.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites

Prerequisites
Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).

When two spells at the end of a list are separated by "or," one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two.

Seems fairly straight forward to me. One person can supply the spells needed, and another can supply the feat needed.

And as a frequent player of ACME casters (what can I say? I play with stingy DMs :smalltongue: ), I must say I love the cooperative magic item creation rules. :smallamused:

Kish

2007-10-27, 05:24 PM

Q. In Comic 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html), Elan praises his "six new skill points". Since human bards get 7+Int skill points per level, doesn't this mean that he has an Int penalty of -1 and an Intelligence of 8 or 9?
A. No. According to the Giant, he's referring to the the new rule for bards and skill points, which is 6/level (not including racial and ability bonuses).

I'd suggest adding to the answer, "and that's 7+Int skill points per level, not per edition conversion. Elan hadn't just gained a level."

Wrecan

2007-10-27, 05:35 PM

I'm sorry, Kish. I don't understand what you just wrote. What are you trying to accommodate with that addition?

Kish

2007-10-27, 08:35 PM

Elan didn't gain a level. He got converted to 3.5. So how many skill points a bard gains on leveling up is irrelevant.

Wrecan

2007-10-27, 09:08 PM

I don't think anybody ever thought that meant he had just gained a level.

Kish

2007-10-27, 09:22 PM

The question talks about how many skill points bards gain per level. "Human bards get 7+Int skill points per level."

Now, I agree that no one consciously thought "they just gained a level." But thinking that how many points bards gain--per level--is relevant at all is a short circuit. Do you see what I'm saying? If they gained an amount of skill points equal to their Intelligence score each level, that would give Elan's exact Intelligence score if he said how many he gained when he leveled up, but it would still tell nothing about how many he'd gain or lose on being converted to a new edition.

Chronos

2007-10-27, 09:55 PM

Some thoughts on Xykon's spell list:
First, we've got a significant chunk of it pinned down, especially the high levels. Sorted by level, we have (spoilered for space): 0 (9):
1 (5): Magic Missile
-
-
-
-
2 (5): Shatter
-
-
-
-
3 (4): Lightning Bolt
-
-
-
4 (4): Animate Dead
Greater Invisibility
Resilient Sphere
-
5 (4): Cloudkill
Overland Flight
Symbol of Pain
Teleport
6 (3): Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage?
-
-
7 (3): Finger of Death
-
-
8 (3): Symbol of Insanity
Ghostform
-
9 (3): Energy Drain
Soul Bind
Meteor Swarm(I'm assuming that his custom Forcecage is level 6, since it appears to be inferior to the normal version, and that his Ghostform is the level 8 version, since he casts it in 3.5 edition and he doesn't have any more room on his level 5 list.) Now let's see what we can say about filling in the gaps. First of all, he certainly has some fire spells other than Meteor Swarm. In the throne room fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), he's seen casting something (while saying that he's running out of spells above fifth level) which I surmise to be Delayed Blast Fireball: His comment suggests both that the spell he's casting at that moment is above fifth level (since he apparently considers those the most worthwhile ones), and also that it isn't Meteor Swarm (since he would have used those up first). It could also be a Maximized or otherwise metamagicked Fireball, though.

Second, he also has at least one low-level fire spell. In SoD, at the time that he left Helldeathdoomfire Volcano (very early in his career), he was sometimes using fire to hit things until they break.This was probably Fireball.

Third, also in SoD, he threatens to polymorph Redcloak and Right-Eye (page 34). Since SoD takes place in 3.0, that would be the Polymorph Other spell. It's debatable whether that would be converted to Polymorph or Baleful Polymorph, or grandfather houseruled in. It's also possible that it was an empty threat. If Polymorph, there's one slot on his fourth-level list, but Baleful Polymorph won't fit.So he may or may not have Polymorph.

Fourth, he has at least one Summon Monster spell, from 431 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), where Redcloak expected him to summon a few behind enemy lines. Unfortunately, that doesn't tell us anything about which Summon Monster spell it is (from what we know now, it could be any one except V or IX).

Forealms

2007-10-28, 01:34 AM

Just to completely smash the Thog = Chaotic Neutral argument....

In Rich's World, Evil people can form deep and lasting friendships.

But still, an evil breadcrumb-devouring clown-punching witch? What kind of person would you have to be to want to fight that?

[/twocents]

Jasdoif

2007-10-28, 02:55 AM

Q. In Comic 38 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Durkon tells Roy he's paralyzed because he was poisoned 17 times with Strength poison. Doesn't this mean Roy's Stength is 17?
A. No. First poison inflicts variable Strength. Being poisoned 17 times would mean he lost dozens of Strengh points. Second, your Strength can never be reduced below 1, no matter how much you're poisoned. The number 17 was chosen for its funny. It cannot indicate Roy's Strength.Nitpick: your Strength can never be reduced below 0.

Amon Star

2007-10-28, 07:58 AM

Also, this thread should have a subtitle - Revenge of the Geeks?

Agreed.
Second, Xykon was venerable when he became a lich, meaning that he should have -6 Str and Dex (he doesn't have a Con score anymore) and +3 Wis, Int, and Cha. That should probably be taken into account in his stats. Since he also got +2 to each mental stat when becoming a lich, his Int and Wis would be at 15, assuming they both started at 10 (which seems likely). Having a Cha of 28 also makes sense -- if he started at 18 and put each of his 5 earned points into it, it would wind up at 28 after growing old and becoming a lich.

I think 15 is too high a Wis for :xykon:. He's ridiculously impulsive & likely has Attention Deficit Disorder. he probably started with a 8, maybe 9 at most. Therefore, he should have a 14 Wis at most, more like 13.
Well :thog: does have a horrible sense motive and int score. His evil actions stem a lot from Nale and he might be convincing Thog the actions aren't evil. What alignment would bust out of jail to protect his best buddy from an evil breadcrumb devouring witch?

</prothogrant>

Any.
D'oh! I've been mislead by Haley's «so tiny». Well, still... He one shot's a little too often for it to be only when he max damages. On a d3 (d6/2) max damage is 2 chances out of 6. He just seems to be stonger than that to me.

It's also the Artistic Licence of Rich. One fighting minions, all a characters attacks per round per weapon are often represented as one blow. Looks nore heroic that way.
Non-crazy idea: I think Xykon knows the haste spell.

SoD spoiler:

In the battle between them, Xykon gets off twice as many spells than Dorukan. I think the explanation is that Xykon had cast haste offscreen, and since this was before the conversion to 3.5, the haste he cast was the massively overpowered 3.0 version.

I think quickened spells are not the explanation, since a) Xykon never once says "quickened" in front of energy drain, and b) energy drain is a ninth level spell, and quickened it would be 13th level. That would mean Xykon had taken the improved spell capacity epic feat at the very least four times and probably more, which would push his absolute minimum level to 26, which I think most would agree is too high.

It can't have been Quicken, as Bony is a Sorcerer & they have a hard time using Quicken Spell.
But still, an evil breadcrumb-devouring clown-punching witch? What kind of person would you have to be to want to fight that?

[/twocents]

Someone who likes to fight.

Kreistor

2007-10-28, 10:02 AM

Nitpick: your Strength can never be reduced below 0.

Wrecean, that's correct. Never below 0. Only a 0 in Con kills, unless the effect causing the loss otherwise specifies. (Eg. A shadow that drains someone to 0 strength turns them into another Shadow.)

Felistor

2007-10-28, 02:34 PM

I'd suggest adding to the answer, "and that's 7+Int skill points per level, not per edition conversion. Elan hadn't just gained a level."

I agree. That had to be explained to people numerous times, and that alone should suffice to answer the question even if the Giant hadn't commented.

Ertier

2007-10-28, 02:57 PM

Haley's special abilities are a feat and an actual ability right? The special ability cannot be:
Opprotunist (Highly unlikely being a ranged attacker)
Skill Mastery
Crippiling Strike(Since when has she done strength damage)

Most Likely:
Defensive Roll (she seems like that kind of rogue)
Improved Evasion (Just a hunch...)

Also, Sabine has piercings (some sort of ring or stud most likely) and a School Girl Outfit.

Thog has a Leprachaun outfit and a Mog outfit

Elana has a neon sign saying "The Adventurers Are Here", a cofee machine that "doesn't do espresso", and a cardboard box that says espresso.

Should Haley's Tat be listed?

Wrecan

2007-10-28, 05:22 PM

I see what you're saying, Kish. I'll amend the FAQ accordingly. Also amended to correct the Strength poison nitpick above. Thanks for proofreading me, guys! I'm open to any other suggestions for the FAQ

Porthos

2007-10-28, 06:26 PM

This is really a minor nitpick, but....

Q. Doesn't Comic 49 indicate Vaarsuvius has Time Stop, Meteor Swarm and Wish in the spellbook?
A. No. Vaarsuvius was not even looking at the spellbook. It was an attempt to suggest the most outrageous spells for Zz'ditri's variant Fly spell.

Vaarsuvius could have them in his spellbook, even though he wasn't looking at that point. After all, wizards can have spells in their spellbook that are too high of a level for them to cast.

I would say that, technically speaking, the evidence is inconclusive if those spells are in V's book or not. :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain

2007-10-28, 06:27 PM

I love the phrase "currently deceased" :smallsmile:

Long list ahead!

I believe that, since many scores are listed as "~10 (no evidence)", scores that get a racial bonus should therefore be listed as "~12 (no evidence, racial)", rather than "16 (assuming everyone of that race has a 16 in those scores)". If there isn't any justification that Roy's con is more than 10, there isn't any justification either that Durkon's con is 16+, nor that Belkar's dex is that high (heck, perhaps he became a ranger because he lacked the dex for TWF otherwise).

V's concentration check is a lot lower than 15 (e.g. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html and especially http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0152.html ). V rarely if ever succesfully makes a concentration check.

Furthermore, there's no evidence that V has "improved counterspell or makes heavy usage of dispels", considering you can counter a spell with itself, and the spells Samantha uses are pretty much the same as those V memorizes all the time.

Roy probably doesn't have oil of shillelagh or potion of delay poison any more - what is the likgelyhood of those not breaking after that fall? By the way what on earth is "bane of those forsaken by the gods" supposed to mean? Sabine does not appear to be forsaken by anyone, as long as there's evil gods - and neither is the "bane" damage consistently done to e.g. the undead. The sword's enchantment is more likely "more damage if the wielder is angry".

Redcloak has enough intelligence to be a good strategist (see the recent war arc) and has Knowledge: Chemistry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html). Redcloak also carries a 1000 gp spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html).

Belkar has Vocal Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) as a feat. Also, despite it being a class ability for rangers, Belkar almost certainly does not have an animal companion. Perhaps he ate it.

I think "male" under Belkar should point to this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html). In case it wasn't obvious :)

Durkon's "+1 v orcs and goblinoids" should point to this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html). By the way, why is "favored class" listed for Durkon and not for any other character?

If Elan "doesn't even have a smidge of wisdom" that would mean substantially less than 9, which is pretty nearly average. Likewise, for Haley's wisdom, if "prone to aphasia" has anything to do with wisdom, then either the average person is likewise prone to aphasia, or Haley's wisdom is considerably lower (although likely higher than Elan's). Likewise, Durkon's charisma - a +0 is not a "low" charisma modifier, but an average one.

Elan appears to have "Perform (sing)", since he frequently inspires competence (a bard music ability) without using an instrument. And Elan's spell list does not include any healing spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html).

Why not list the character's ages, if known? Haley is 24 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html). By the way, why does Haley "probably" have knowledge: arcana?

Vaarsuvius's second banned school is Necromancy. This follows from elimination, because he uses spells from every other school other than conjuration.

Xykon has skill ranks in Reverse Psychology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html). Furthermore, he has Dorukan's headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html), and a special kind of gem mentioned in SOD.

I don't recall it as a given that Tsukiko is a wizard - she could plausibly be a sorcerer instead. Why is it "assumed" that she is not a sorcerer? Also, Tsukiko appears to be casting two spells simultaneously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html).

It appears to be the case that Tsukiko's arcane spells are dark blue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), and her divine spells are light blue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html). It then follows that she knows the arcane version of Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html).

It is not a given that Nale has high intelligence - concocting plans that don't actually work isn't that hard. Vaarsuvius, who tends to know what he's talking about, considers Nale to have no great intellect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html). Nale could plausibly have more than 3 rogue levels (at the expense of fighter levels, perhaps) because his Sneak Attack does enough damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html) to one-shot a sixth-level warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html).

Nale no longer has his +3 longsword - he left it in Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html).

Sabine's Plane Shift works once per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). Why is Sabine assumed to be a rogue, given that she hasn't used any roguish abilities ever? Not all Evil Opposites are the same class as their Stickish counterpart - for instance, Thog isn't either.

There is evidence of Thog's high strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html). Also, of having a wisdom lower than 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html), and plenty of evidence of him having a worse int score than Elan does.

There is no evidence, however, of Pompey having an 18 int, or even being level 10. He was still in school, for crying out loud, he could be level 3 for all we know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html).

Hilgya carries a shield. And a helmet, and a holy symbol.

Yikyik has the feat Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html).

Whew, that's it for today :smallcool:

Koraks

2007-10-28, 06:30 PM

It's also the Artistic Licence of Rich. One fighting minions, all a characters attacks per round per weapon are often represented as one blow. Looks nore heroic that way.

You know, I think you're right there. I did find it weird that the Belkster seemed to have killed the rogue guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) in one shot since he was supposed to be relatively high level (no other visible wounds and x's in his eyes before he hit the ground). Oh well. I'll still be glad to have a precise idea of his strenght level. Someday.

Chronos

2007-10-28, 09:12 PM

If Elan "doesn't even have a smidge of wisdom" that would mean substantially less than 9, which is pretty nearly average. Likewise, for Haley's wisdom, if "prone to aphasia" has anything to do with wisdom, then either the average person is likewise prone to aphasia, or Haley's wisdom is considerably lower (although likely higher than Elan's). Likewise, Durkon's charisma - a +0 is not a "low" charisma modifier, but an average one.A 10 is average for the population at large, but remember that these folks are adventurers talking about other adventurers. 10 is pretty low for an adventurer.

I don't recall it as a given that Tsukiko is a wizard - she could plausibly be a sorcerer instead. Why is it "assumed" that she is not a sorcerer? Also, Tsukiko appears to be casting two spells simultaneously.

It appears to be the case that Tsukiko's arcane spells are dark blue, and her divine spells are light blue. It then follows that she knows the arcane version of Animate Dead.
First, she was arrested for "unnatural acts of wizardry", not "sorcery". And second, the aura for her imminent Animate Dead was light blue, same as her divine spells. It's likely that she knows the arcane spell as well, but one presumes that it was excised from her spellbook when she was imprisoned, and the divine version is lower level anyway.

Sabine's Plane Shift works once per day. Why is Sabine assumed to be a rogue, given that she hasn't used any roguish abilities ever? Not all Evil Opposites are the same class as their Stickish counterpart - for instance, Thog isn't either.The Cast of Characters in No Cure for the Paladin Blues lists Sabine as a rogue. Her level is derived from the assumption of 6 racial hit dice, and that the Guild is the same level as the Order. And Thog is part fighter (but only two levels: Fighter three is stupid level).

MCerberus

2007-10-28, 09:40 PM

In a comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) Durokon turns undead 3 time (albeit with no undead around). This implies that, since clerics can turn 3 + CHA mod, his charisma is at least 10. If it were lower he would lose a turning due to a negative modifier. This, of course, assumes that he doesn't have the extra turning feat... buuuuuuuuut a "low modifier" could mean low positives or a negative. Note that we haven't seen him turn more than 3 times in a day.

Amon Star

2007-10-29, 05:24 AM

Roy probably doesn't have oil of shillelagh or potion of delay poison any more - what is the likgelyhood of those not breaking after that fall?All items are AMAZINGLY tough under the current rules. The only times when there even is a chance for them to get damaged is when they're actively targeted or when the carrier rolls a one on a saving throw. As falling is automatic damage that targets the person, the potions should be fine.
Belkar has Vocal Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) as a feat. Also, despite it being a class ability for rangers, Belkar almost certainly does not have an animal companion. Perhaps he ate it.That's because :belkar: started in 3rd Edition, where you needed spells to get an Animal Companion. Also, the Sexy Shoeless God Of War (And Cooking) probably hasn't realised it's now an innate class ability.
Xykon has skill ranks in Reverse Psychology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html). Furthermore, he has Dorukan's headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html), and a special kind of gem mentioned in SOD.That could have been sarcasm on :redcloak:'s part. After all, a decent Bluff check could have easily accomplished that feat.
It is not a given that Nale has high intelligence - concocting plans that don't actually work isn't that hard. Vaarsuvius, who tends to know what he's talking about, considers Nale to have no great intellect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html). Nale could plausibly have more than 3 rogue levels (at the expense of fighter levels, perhaps) because his Sneak Attack does enough damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html) to one-shot a sixth-level warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html).:vaarsuvius: said that to make :nale: show himself, as no matter how smart he is, his Ego is greater. Also, :nale: one-shotting the Chief could have been Artistic Licence again & represented a Full-Round Attack. We did see :nale:'s sword in the second from last panel.

Chrismith

2007-10-29, 08:25 AM

I believe that, since many scores are listed as "~10 (no evidence)", scores that get a racial bonus should therefore be listed as "~12 (no evidence, racial)", rather than "16 (assuming everyone of that race has a 16 in those scores)". If there isn't any justification that Roy's con is more than 10, there isn't any justification either that Durkon's con is 16+, nor that Belkar's dex is that high (heck, perhaps he became a ranger because he lacked the dex for TWF otherwise).

Right now, these are estimations based what what a typical build of that type/race/class would have. I'm not really going to worry about them, because we know absolutely nothing about those scores. As long as it specifically says "no evidence" next to them, it is clear to anyone reading that it is just a guess.

V's concentration check is a lot lower than 15 (e.g. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html and especially http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0152.html ). V rarely if ever succesfully makes a concentration check.

True, but I feel like there was some debate on this originally that led to the current number. Can anyone verify this?

Furthermore, there's no evidence that V has "improved counterspell or makes heavy usage of dispels", considering you can counter a spell with itself, and the spells Samantha uses are pretty much the same as those V memorizes all the time.

Probably true, I agree.

Roy probably doesn't have oil of shillelagh or potion of delay poison any more - what is the likgelyhood of those not breaking after that fall? By the way what on earth is "bane of those forsaken by the gods" supposed to mean? Sabine does not appear to be forsaken by anyone, as long as there's evil gods - and neither is the "bane" damage consistently done to e.g. the undead. The sword's enchantment is more likely "more damage if the wielder is angry".

Item breakage is covered above. I agree about the whole "forsaken by the gods" thing -- that seems overly complicated. It's probably just random, but we only see it during pivotal battles because of dramatic license, or something.

Redcloak has enough intelligence to be a good strategist (see the recent war arc) and has Knowledge: Chemistry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html). Redcloak also carries a 1000 gp spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html).

Redcloak strategy isn't enough to infer a concrete number for an INT score. He's unlikely to have a negative modifier, but maybe he got insight into how to combat the Azurites through his high wisdom. Who knows?

Belkar has Vocal Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) as a feat. Also, despite it being a class ability for rangers, Belkar almost certainly does not have an animal companion. Perhaps he ate it.

Is "Vocal Sunder" an actual feat?

Elan appears to have "Perform (sing)", since he frequently inspires competence (a bard music ability) without using an instrument. And Elan's spell list does not include any healing spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html).

Both good points, I just noticed the singing thing the other day.

By the way, why does Haley "probably" have knowledge: arcana?

I feel like this is another one of those things that arose out of discussion of something or other.

Vaarsuvius's second banned school is Necromancy. This follows from elimination, because he uses spells from every other school other than conjuration.

True.

Xykon has skill ranks in Reverse Psychology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html). Furthermore, he has Dorukan's headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html), and a special kind of gem mentioned in SOD.

Dorukan's headband has been added. However the "reverse psychology" thing was a joke -- Xykon specifically said that he was making a bluff check in that case.

I don't recall it as a given that Tsukiko is a wizard - she could plausibly be a sorcerer instead. Why is it "assumed" that she is not a sorcerer? Also, Tsukiko appears to be casting two spells simultaneously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html).

It appears to be the case that Tsukiko's arcane spells are dark blue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), and her divine spells are light blue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html). It then follows that she knows the arcane version of Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html).

Covered above.

There is no evidence, however, of Pompey having an 18 int, or even being level 10. He was still in school, for crying out loud, he could be level 3 for all we know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html).

There was actually a lot of discussion on this point -- he claims (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) to cast five buffs spells on Sabine, and we know some things about those spells: they have a range of touch, they were not in the schools evocation or enchantment, most (if not all) had a duration of 1 min/level, and they were effective against Roy when Sabine fought him. Using this information, dedicated geeks toiled over their PHBs and came up with the info we currently have.

Hilgya carries a shield. And a helmet, and a holy symbol.

We don't know anything about her shield or helmet, and that she has a holy symbol should be obvious, given that she is a cleric. Hell, she has armor too. And YikYik had some sort of tunic. And Roy has some boots. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

Yikyik has the feat Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html).

Added.

DeadmanXI

2007-10-29, 12:03 PM

DeadmanXI

2007-10-29, 12:09 PM

Belkar has Vocal Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) as a feat. Also, despite it being a class ability for rangers, Belkar almost certainly does not have an animal companion. Perhaps he ate it.

I believe he strikes the rapier, it's just not shown.

Why not list the character's ages, if known? Haley is 24 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html). By the way, why does Haley "probably" have knowledge: arcana?

Roy's 28 according to commentary in NCftPB.

On an additional note, I still say the Linear Guild should be assumed to be 13th level, maintaining parity with the PCs. There is also some evidence that Nale has Weapon Focus (Longsword) or Improved Critical (Longsword) and potentially (depending on his Fighter level) even Specialization. When escaping from prison, he explicitly preferred one over a Katana, which makes little sense unless his Feats are focused on it.

Wrecan

2007-10-29, 12:32 PM

I would say that, technically speaking, the evidence is inconclusive if those spells are in V's book or not. :smallsmile:
Point well taken. Fixed the FAQ.

I believe that, since many scores are listed as "~10 (no evidence)", scores that get a racial bonus should therefore be listed as "~12 (no evidence, racial)", rather than "16 (assuming everyone of that race has a 16 in those scores)".
I agree. I'm fixing the chart, though this only affects Durkon's Con and Belkar's Dex score.

V's concentration check is a lot lower than 15
It probably is, but we don't know how much lower.

there's no evidence that V has "improved counterspell or makes heavy usage of dispels"
Good point. Deleted.

Roy probably doesn't have oil of shillelagh or potion of delay poison any more - what is the likgelyhood of those not breaking after that fall?
Nothing appears to have broken in the fall except Roy's head and bits of ground.

By the way what on earth is "bane of those forsaken by the gods" supposed to mean?
I meant to delete that. my bad.

Belkar has Vocal Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) as a feat.
That's not a real feat from any supplement of which I am aware. That comic is simply funny trumping rules.

Also, despite it being a class ability for rangers, Belkar almost certainly does not have an animal companion. Perhaps he ate it.
It's still a class ability, even if Belkar hasn't invoked it. That's why it's listed in abilities, not possessions.

I think "male" under Belkar should point to this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html).
Fine with me.

Durkon's "+1 v orcs and goblinoids" should point to this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html).
Okay.

By the way, why is "favored class" listed for Durkon and not for any other character?
No good reason. Fixed. (Though for the record, it was listed with Belkar and Vaarsuvius). I've now added it for the humans as well.

If Elan "doesn't even have a smidge of wisdom" that would mean substantially less than 9. Likewise, for Haley's wisdom, if "prone to aphasia" has anything to do with wisdom, then either the average person is likewise prone to aphasia, or Haley's wisdom is considerably lower (although likely higher than Elan's). Likewise, Durkon's charisma - a +0 is not a "low" charisma modifier, but an average one.
We don't know how much less.

Elan appears to have "Perform (sing)", since he frequently inspires competence (a bard music ability) without using an instrument.
When does he do that?

And Elan's spell list does not include any healing spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html).Good point.

Why not list the character's ages, if known?
That's a mess I don't feel like adding onto this list.

why does Haley "probably" have knowledge: arcana?
I don't remember.

Vaarsuvius's second banned school is Necromancy.
I meant to add that. Thanks.

turkishproverb

2007-10-29, 01:04 PM

I don't feel :thog: is Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral I would say.

So someone who has admitted to murdering 490+ people is Chaotic Neutral, eh? :smallamused:

I'd hate to see how evil someone needs to be before you'd classify them as Chaotic Evil. :smalleek:

But he doesn't exactly seem to relish it, or for that matter understand it.

And how many goblins did miko kill? or Roy?

Not this again...
Thog kills people with glee and laugh. He obeys Nale's evil orders without hesitation. He's evil.

Thats probably because he's got a wisdom of 2 and a int of like 2. He's not smart enough to know disobeying nale would be a good thing, and he's probably not fully capable of handling the alignment system in his head anyway.

I suspect CN with Cute N and Chaotic Evil Tendencies.

Porthos

2007-10-29, 01:30 PM

So someone who has admitted to murdering 490+ people is Chaotic Neutral, eh? :smallamused:

I'd hate to see how evil someone needs to be before you'd classify them as Chaotic Evil. :smalleek:

But he doesn't exactly seem to relish it, or for that matter understand it.

oh little ice cream friends! Thog delays boredom driven rampage only for you! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)

This says that Thog finds killing people enjoyable, just not as enjoyable as eating fudge ripple ice cream.

And if you want another example: yay! resisitng arrest is fun! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html)

I mean. C'mon. :smallamused:

And how many goblins did miko kill? or Roy?

Irrelevant. Rich has already stated that killing goblins isn't evil in his world. I can dig out the post if you want. You know, just to spare us the 15 page argu-fest alignment discussion. :smalltongue:

Besides, I think we both realize there is a minor difference between killing folks in a dungeon and going on a murderous rampage in a city. At least in Baseline DnD. :smallamused:

So while you can, if you want, inject Moral Relativism into DnD, the game really isn't suited for it. At least when it gets into the Good/Evil divide.

Thats probably because he's got a wisdom of 2 and a int of like 2. He's not smart enough to know disobeying nale would be a good thing, and he's probably not fully capable of handling the alignment system in his head anyway.

Thog has at least a 3 INT and WIS, per rule. Besides, as I said upthread, we already know that children can have alignments. So even if Thog is child-like, that doesn't excuse his behavior.

Look, Thog is funny. Thog is carefree. But Thog also knows Right From Wrong (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html). He just doesn't usually care.

I suspect CN with Cute N and Chaotic Evil Tendencies.

I think I'll let Rich's comments on Belkar and tendencies handle this one. :smallamused:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=559967#post559967

A person who commits Evil act after Evil act and no Good acts at all is Evil. Not "Neutral with Evil tendencies". There is no such thing as "tendencies" in the alignment rules. In order to be Neutral you need to either a.) commit no Good or Evil acts at all, or b.) commit a more-or-less equal number of Good and Evil acts. Not c.) commit a boatload of Evil acts without guilt or regret and no Good acts except those he is bullied into.

Besides, as another comic strip once pointed out, you can't make leniency for cuteness (http://www.webcomicsnation.com/users/narbonic/narbonic/httpdocs/072801.gif). :smalltongue:

blennus

2007-10-29, 01:33 PM

I know that this isn't really important but isn't Samantha deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html)? Also just for the sake of consistency shouldn't her information be in spoiler tags? Again this isn't a really an important point. Just a minor nitpick.

Chronos

2007-10-29, 01:45 PM

There was actually a lot of discussion on this point -- he claims to cast five buffs spells on Sabine, and we know some things about those spells: they have a range of touch, they were not in the schools evocation or enchantment, most (if not all) had a duration of 1 min/level, and they were effective against Roy when Sabine fought him. Using this information, dedicated geeks toiled over their PHBs and came up with the info we currently have.I was the one who pointed out about his spell list, but then someone else pointed out a spell I had overlooked. I'd have to dig it up, but I think it's consistent with him being as low as 4 or so.

I believe he strikes the rapier, it's just not shown.No, he says earlier that he could sunder it by speaking too loudly, and then he does. I think that's supposed to say more about the rapier than about Belkar, though.

There is also some evidence that Nale has Weapon Focus (Longsword) or Improved Critical (Longsword) and potentially (depending on his Fighter level) even Specialization. When escaping from prison, he explicitly preferred one over a Katana, which makes little sense unless his Feats are focused on it.All it implies is that he hasn't spent a feat on proficiency with the katana. Without proficiency, he'd have to use it two-handed, while he can use a longsword one-handed (leaving his other hand free for spellcasting, or carrying a shield).

And if we're tracking ages, Nale (and hence Elan) was 21, as of 258 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)

Behold_the_Void

2007-10-29, 02:05 PM

Xykon only gains +3 to mental stats for being venerable, not +5.

turkishproverb

2007-10-29, 02:08 PM

oh little ice cream friends! Thog delays boredom driven rampage only for you! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)

This says that Thog finds killing people enjoyable, just not as enjoyable as eating fudge ripple ice cream.

And if you want another example: yay! resisitng arrest is fun! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html)

I mean. C'mon. :smallamused:

But its like defending miko. does he KNOW it is wrong? Wheather or nto that makes it non-evil, i would think it makes it less evere.

Irrelevant. Rich has already stated that killing goblins isn't evil in his world. I can dig out the post if you want. You know, just to spare us the 15 page argu-fest alignment discussion. :smalltongue:

Besides, I think we both realize there is a minor difference between killing folks in a dungeon and going on a murderous rampage in a city. At least in Baseline DnD. :smallamused:

So while you can, if you want, inject Moral Relativism into DnD, the game really isn't suited for it. At least when it gets into the Good/Evil divide.

It isn't evil to kill tem at all, or if good character killthem? or if PC races kill them.

Either way, I get the point your making, I was just trying to illustrate we can't prove there was a difference

Thog has at least a 3 INT and WIS, per rule. Besides, as I said upthread, we already know that children can have alignments. So even if Thog is child-like, that doesn't excuse his behavior.

Look, Thog is funny. Thog is carefree. But Thog also knows Right From Wrong (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html). He just doesn't usually care.

The Giant's bent the rules for the strip before, I"m not sure he would't do it for htog. And either way, we don't knwo if thog's origin had him that low, maybe he WAS 3 before some sort've drain. I just think he behaves like a 2 int and wisdom is all.

as to the other, i'm not sure how much it implies in the long term, but i'll give he might have some idea of right and wrong.

I think I'll let Rich's comments on Belkar and tendencies handle this one. :smallamused:

[url]http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=559967#post559967

Besides, as another comic strip once pointed out, you can't make leniency for cuteness (http://www.webcomicsnation.com/users/narbonic/narbonic/httpdocs/072801.gif). :smalltongue:

Sigh, I'm sorry, its just that tendancies are used so much in D&D by players i can't help but think of them as a rule. anyway cute comic strip.

I guess i can see the CE argument, though he'd be easily redeemable.

Maybe deep down I jsut want to get him into LG heaven so he cal play blocks with eric.

Chrismith

2007-10-29, 02:19 PM

I've gotten rid of stat estimates based on class, to match Wrecan's post. I'm also going to go back over Pompey's possible spells and work out the lowest level he could be.

When does he do that?

One instance is in the Azure City jail (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html). He doesn't succeed because of the antimagic field, but he at least tried, and you need 6 ranks in the perform skill to inspire competence. Although it's possible that this is just Elan being an idiot. In any case, he must have the same or more ranks in Perform (string), because he seems to prefer his lyre when it's available.

Nerdanel

2007-10-29, 02:20 PM

Xykon only gains +3 to mental stats for being venerable, not +5.

He gets +3 for being venerable and +2 for being a lich. It adds up to +5.

Good for him, as I think he initially had minuses in both int and wis.

Kreistor

2007-10-29, 02:24 PM

why does Haley "probably" have knowledge: arcana?

I don't remember.

62 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html)

This can justify some knowledge of Outsiders, which is Know(Planes), not Arcana. She didn't identify the Chimera, and didn't even try, so I'm thinking it is unlikely she has Arcana. It's not unfrequent for people to think Outsiders are covered by Arcana, not Planes, so it may have been 62.

I'm still looking, so I might have something else to justify it later.

Porthos

2007-10-29, 02:29 PM

62 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html)

This can justify some knowledge of Outsiders, which is Know(Planes), not Arcana. She didn't identify the Chimera, and didn't even try, so I'm thinking it is unlikely she has Arcana. It's not unfrequent for people to think Outsiders are covered by Arcana, not Planes, so it may have been 62.

I'm still looking, so I might have something else to justify it later.

Haley also demonstrates some limited knowledge about Outsiders in 399 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html). And since V didn't know what Haley was talking about, it would suggest that this is a Knowledge (The Planes) rather than Knowledge (Arcana) situation, which V should have maxxed out.

Besides, Haley having a decent Knowedge (The Planes) would make sense if the fan theory that she has Outsider blood running through her veins is correct.

Runolfr

2007-10-29, 02:42 PM

We know that Samantha did not have the Silent Spell and Still Spell feats. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html)

Chrismith

2007-10-29, 02:43 PM

Okay, I've looked over the wizard spell list, and these are the lowest-level spells Pompey could have cast that match the description:

Protection from Good/Law -- Can both of these be active at once? I know that the recipient would only get the benefits of one against someone lawful good like Roy, But if you're potentially going to be facing do-gooder heroes as well as the lawful police, it might make sense.

Bull's Strength

Bear's Endurance

Mage Armor -- this is an 1 hour/level, not 1 minute, but we don't know that all of the buffs wore off, it may have just been most of them.

Cat's grace (if protection from good & law weren't both cast)

So, including Summon Monster II, Pompey would have needed 3 1st-level spell slots and 3 2nd-level. Some level/int combos that would satisfy this include...

Level 3 & 22 int (unlikely)
Level 4 & 14 int (reasonable)
Level 6 & 12 int (minimum int to cast level 2 spells)

So, being conservative, I think we can safely say that Pompey is level 4+ with 12+ int. (Someone let me know if I missed any spells, or if my assumption that Protection from law & good can be active at the same time is wrong. That would change this a bit.)

EDIT: I can't count, apparently. If Pompey cast Protection from Law & Good, he would need 3 1st-level spell slots and 3 2nd-level spell slots, not 4. The above has been revised.

Another Edit: For clarification, I wasn't including the bonus spells Pompey would get from being a specialist, because he uses Summon Monster I and Summon Monster II a little later, accounting for both bonus spell slots. Thus, we only need to concern ourselves with the buffs and the extra Summon Monster II. I swear I included this above...I must have deleted it somehow before posting. Sorry for the confusion.

Porthos

2007-10-29, 03:00 PM

A 4th level Conjurer with a 14 INT would have 4 2nd level spells and 5 1st level spells, with the Summon Monster spells being the xtra spells.

And since Pompey already says that he is a Conjurer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html), I think that explanation makes more sense. :smallsmile:

NB: And if he had a scroll or two for the buffs, then Pompey could be as low as 3rd level. But we have no real evidence either way, there. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Going on your EDIT, then Pompey is definitey 3rd Level (the same as Julia) since a 3rd Level Conjurer with a 14 INT has 3 2nd lvl spells and 4 1st level spells

Porthos

2007-10-29, 03:16 PM

Sorry for the double post, but after checking Pompey is either 4th Level or he used a scroll along the way:

Pompey cast 5 touch spells on Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html)
Pompey casts Summon Monster II (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html)
Pompey casts Summon Monster II and Summon Monster I (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)

That is eight total spells of various different types. I find it difficult to believe that Pompey is 5th or 6th level, simply because the spells wouldn't have run out in the Roy/Sabine fight and because that would make him twice the level of Julia.

However 4th level is just about right, depending on how much earlier Pompey buffed up Sabine.

As for the spells Pompey could have used, you forgot to add Shield, which could be another one of the 1st level spells. :smallsmile:

So Mage Armor (armor bonus), Bear's Endurance (Con bonus), Cat's Grace (Dex bonus), Shield (shield bonus), and Protection From Good (deflection bonus) would seem to work perfectly.

That gives us 4 2nd Level spells and 3 1st Level spells, 1 unaccounted for Buff Spell and a 1st Level spell to spare. :smallsmile:

Jasdoif

2007-10-29, 04:25 PM

As for the spells Pompey could have used, you forgot to add Shield, which could be another one of the 1st level spells. :smallsmile:Shield is a personal range spell, he can't cast it on anyone except himself.

Porthos

2007-10-29, 04:29 PM

Shield is a personal range spell, he can't cast it on anyone except himself.

D'oh! I should know better! :smalleek:

Been a while since I needed that spell. I'm going to go and change that now. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Wrecan

2007-10-29, 04:56 PM

IOne instance is in the Azure City jail (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html). He doesn't succeed because of the antimagic field, but he at least tried, and you need 6 ranks in the perform skill to inspire competence. Although it's possible that this is just Elan being an idiot.
On that basis, almost nothing Elan says is evidence of anything! But I agree with your argument and am editing Elan's stats accordingly.

Chronos

2007-10-29, 06:22 PM

I count three total Summon Monster IIs, there: Two in 350 (one for each of the 'pedes), and one in 354.

More thoughts on the Roy/Sabine fight: He was deliberately dragging the battle out longer until her buffs wore out. Does this suggest Combat Expertise? He's got the Int for it, and a 12th-level human fighter certainly has the feats to spend.

Porthos

2007-10-29, 06:33 PM

I count three total Summon Monster IIs, there: Two in 350 (one for each of the 'pedes), and one in 354.

Fiendish monstrous centipede, Medium is a Summon I critter. Summon Monster II can summon 1d3 Summon Monster I critters.

Problem solved. :smallsmile:

wowy319

2007-10-29, 06:39 PM

turkishproverb

2007-10-29, 06:51 PM

Kurald Galain

2007-10-29, 07:17 PM

All items are AMAZINGLY tough under the current rules.
They are? Oh, that's silly. But never mind about those potions, then.

:vaarsuvius: said that to make :nale: show himself, as no matter how smart he is, his Ego is greater. Also, :nale: one-shotting the Chief could have been Artistic Licence again & represented a Full-Round Attack. We did see :nale:'s sword in the second from last panel.
Yes, that is a reasonable explanation, but saying Nale is Fighter 1/Rogue 5/Sorcere 6 is also a reasonable explanation. The point is that we don't know that Nale is a 3rd-level fighter. We only know that he's Fighter 1+, Rogue 1+, Sorcerer 6+.

Is "Vocal Sunder" an actual feat?
Well, no, but neither is Craft Disturbing Mental Image (which is on the list, even though it may well be a one-off joke rather than an actual feat).

Hell, she has armor too. And YikYik had some sort of tunic. And Roy has some boots. A line has to be drawn somewhere.
Yes, and Roy's boots are listed, as is Durkon's shield. I figured there's little difference between those and Hilgya's helmet.

I believe he strikes the rapier, it's just not shown.
No, he explicitly says he can sunder that by speaking too loudly. And he does.

It probably is, but we don't know how much lower.
I thought the point of the thread was to list the minimum things we knew? There is, to my knowledge, no evidence that :vaarsuvius: has 15 ranks in Craft: Basketweaving, and neither that he has 15 ranks in Concentration. Then why is the latter on the list if the former isn't?

That's not a real feat from any supplement of which I am aware. That comic is simply funny trumping rules.
As above, it's not a real feat, but neither is Craft Disturbing Mental Image.

When does he do that?
Here's an example of Elan doing inspiration without an instrument: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html

Some other things...
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) is a link for Miko's knowledge (planes), and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html) is a link for Hinjo's high damage capacity.

Nale's Charisma must be at least 13 for him to cast Suggestion
Likewise, we know Leeky's wisdom is at least 17 (to cast Firestorm)
and Pompey's int is at least 12 (to cast Summon 2)
We can also say something about Hilgya's wis or Zz'tdri's int if we want to.

With respect to Belkar one-shotting Grand Larceny Guy, it is quite possible that the latter had been wounded in combat already.

Based on SOD, I believe Xykon's int was below average to start with (mentioned several times; and note how he doesn't devise many "fiendish plans" either, other than blasting stuff). When he became a lich, the +5 helped a lot.

Xykon's low-level fire spell could be anything, like scorching ray or whatnot. There's no evidence that it is Fireball.

Jasdoif

2007-10-29, 07:41 PM

Xykon's low-level fire spell could be anything, like scorching ray or whatnot. There's no evidence that it is Fireball.It could even be burning hands.

Porthos

2007-10-29, 07:53 PM

Wrecan, I just noticed that your sig still points to the old Geekery Thread. You might want to update it when you get the chance. :smallsmile:

Chronos

2007-10-29, 08:02 PM

As above, it's not a real feat, but neither is Craft Disturbing Mental Image.The difference is, Belkar explicitly says that Craft Disturbing Mental Image is a feat. If we're going to say that Belkar has Vocal Sunder, then we need to say that Elan has Rapier Wall-Scribing. Not every cool thing a character does need necessarily be a feat.

Here's an example of Elan doing inspiration without an instrument: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.htmlThat wouldn't be Inspire Competence, though, since that only works on skill checks, not attack rolls. It could be Inspire Courage (which only requires 4 ranks) or a few other things.

Porthos

2007-10-29, 08:15 PM

The difference is, Belkar explicitly says that Craft Disturbing Mental Image is a feat. If we're going to say that Belkar has Vocal Sunder, then we need to say that Elan has Rapier Wall-Scribing. Not every cool thing a character does need necessarily be a feat.

I agree, especially since just a couple of panels earlier Belkar commented that a rapier was so weak, that he could Sunder it just by speaking loudly. When he does, he completes the joke. :smallsmile:

That wouldn't be Inspire Competence, though, since that only works on skill checks, not attack rolls. It could be Inspire Courage (which only requires 4 ranks) or a few other things.

Minor Nitpick: Inspire Courage is 3 ranks, not 4. :smallsmile:

However, Comic #238 would suggest that (no pun intended) Elan has Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0238.html) which requires 9 ranks. I only say Suggestion because Elan specifically mentions "a charming bard song to enchant them into following him" which is pretty much the Suggestion ability.

The fact that he failed (almost) utterly... Well, I guess Elan didn't read the fine print to realize that he could only Suggest one person at a time. :smallwink:

Chrismith

2007-10-29, 08:22 PM

I'm gonna have to say Thog's wisdom would also have to be below par, as a silent image has fooled him not once, but twice, in the course of the comics, and V suggests he has "An abysmal will saving throw." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)

I'd say 9 or lower, personally.

Even if he has 10 wis, as a Barbarian 10/Fighter 2 he has a will save of +3. I'd call that pretty abysmal at those levels.

Yes, that is a reasonable explanation, but saying Nale is Fighter 1/Rogue 5/Sorcere 6 is also a reasonable explanation. The point is that we don't know that Nale is a 3rd-level fighter. We only know that he's Fighter 1+, Rogue 1+, Sorcerer 6+.

That's a good point, I'll change it.

Well, no, but neither is Craft Disturbing Mental Image (which is on the list, even though it may well be a one-off joke rather than an actual feat).

Craft Disturbing Mental Image (CDMI?) is specifically referred to as a feat. Belkar sundering Elan's rapier is just a joke. Why don't we assume that Elan has the "Etch logos (rapier)" feat? And anway, how do we know it's a feat? Maybe Belkar took a level in the Vocal Sunderer prestige class.

Yes, and Roy's boots are listed, as is Durkon's shield. I figured there's little difference between those and Hilgya's helmet.

You've got me there. While I think it's a waste of space to list mundane equipment like that, I'll defer to Wrecan's style and include them for consistency.

Some other things...
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) is a link for Miko's knowledge (planes), and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html) is a link for Hinjo's high damage capacity.

Thanks, I've been wanting to add more links for things like that. But what are you getting at with the Hinjo link? Are you arguing for a higher Con score?

Nale's Charisma must be at least 13 for him to cast Suggestion
Likewise, we know Leeky's wisdom is at least 17 (to cast Firestorm)
and Pompey's int is at least 12 (to cast Summon 2)
We can also say something about Hilgya's wis or Zz'tdri's int if we want to.

Nale's, Leeky's, and Pompey's stats already reflect this. I did add Hilgya's and Zz'dtri's though.

Based on SOD, I believe Xykon's int was below average to start with (mentioned several times; and note how he doesn't devise many "fiendish plans" either, other than blasting stuff). When he became a lich, the +5 helped a lot.

Agreed, I've changed it.

The Bushranger

2007-10-29, 09:17 PM

Does the fact that :haley: has...I guess it would be Borderline Personalities? affect her stats any?

The_Blue_Sorceress

2007-10-29, 10:56 PM

Does the fact that :haley: has...I guess it would be Borderline Personalities? affect her stats any?

I'd argue that she doesn't have any other personalities (also, borderline personality disorders and what has previously been called multiple personality disorder are two separate mental illnesses, although borderline personality disorder does sometimes lead to episodes of the sort of disassociation that characterizes the mental illnesses formerly known as MPD. Anyway, I assume you mean the latter instead of the former.)

I think Haley's "Mistress Shadowgale" interactions are just a visual way of exploring her personal issues. Mistress Shadowgale isn't a personality, she's a metaphor, and Haley's interactions with her are only made to appear real to keep the comic interesting.

-Blue

MCerberus

2007-10-29, 11:03 PM

Does the fact that :haley: has...I guess it would be Borderline Personalities? affect her stats any?

That would likely just be a character quirk... like having a druid afraid of any building larger than a hovel or a certain cleric being afraid of trees.

Eco-Mono

2007-10-29, 11:07 PM

Belkar's Wisdom is exactly 9.
Proof: 9+4=13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). Any lower and he couldn't have cast the scroll. Any higher and he wouldn't have a penalty.

:)

Kreistor

2007-10-30, 12:02 AM

Belkar's Wisdom is exactly 9.
Proof: 9+4=13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). Any lower and he couldn't have cast the scroll. Any higher and he wouldn't have a penalty.

Please note that this is discussed in the FAQ, post 2 in this thread.

The Extinguisher

2007-10-30, 12:28 AM

Doesn't this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) comic suggest Elan's ranks in Perform (Sing)?

Or am I thinking too literally with skills again?

Kreistor

2007-10-30, 12:54 AM

Doesn't this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) comic suggest Elan's ranks in Perform (Sing)?

Or am I thinking too literally with skills again?

It does suggest it, but he's not using it for a Bard Song, so we can't tell from that how many ranks he might have.

Eco-Mono

2007-10-30, 02:34 AM

Please note that this is discussed in the FAQ, post 2 in this thread.But Cure Serious Wounds is a third-level spell, not a fourth-level one. Why is it a contradiction? *confused*

Jasdoif

2007-10-30, 02:42 AM

Wrecan

2007-10-30, 07:36 AM

But Cure Serious Wounds is a third-level spell, not a fourth-level one. Why is it a contradiction? *confused*

That's answered in the very next question in the FAQ.

SoD

2007-10-30, 01:47 PM

Chrismith

2007-10-30, 04:18 PM

Do we have stuff on MITD? I know we can't do much, including the most basic stuff (eg, race), but we could make a list of possesions (an umbrella, a torch, O-Chul, soft toy dragon, small table, tea set...probably other stuff as well), and abilities. Has this been done?

He had an entry in C&LGII (the previous thread), but it basically just said that we don't know much about him. If someone wanted to make a list of what we know about him and/or his possessions, I'd be happy to add it to the villians sections.

Nerd-o-rama

2007-10-30, 04:28 PM

Doesn't this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) comic suggest Elan's ranks in Perform (Sing)?

Or am I thinking too literally with skills again?
Well, I'd guess it was a result of "Great", "Memorable", or even "Extraordinary". The second means he has at least +5, and the last at least +10, but we couldn't really tell his ranks from it, given that we don't know what he rolled.

EDIT: Or maybe he's Fascinating them.

Looking further up the page...

However, Comic #238 would suggest that (no pun intended) Elan has Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0238.html) which requires 9 ranks. I only say Suggestion because Elan specifically mentions "a charming bard song to enchant them into following him" which is pretty much the Suggestion ability.

The fact that he failed (almost) utterly... Well, I guess Elan didn't read the fine print to realize that he could only Suggest one person at a time. :smallwink:
That's exactly how I read that strip: Elan has Suggestion as a Bard Song ability, but not Mass Suggestion. This means at least 9 ranks in Perform (Sing).

Chronos

2007-10-30, 04:30 PM

It does suggest it, but he's not using it for a Bard Song, so we can't tell from that how many ranks he might have."Then sing, Elan! Sing a bard song for Roy".

Since everyone seems to pay attention to him while he's singing, I presume that would be Fascinate (which requires fewer ranks than Inspire Competence, though the save DC depends on the skill check).

Shresh

2007-10-30, 05:51 PM

I personally would think that thog is chaotic stupid. just like V should be neutral talkative, and Haley should be neutral greedy. get the idea?

Kurald Galain

2007-10-30, 06:03 PM

Thanks for the update!

But what are you getting at with the Hinjo link? Are you arguing for a higher Con score?
I'm not sure. But he was hit by Redcloak's disintegrate, failed his saving throw, and lived. Redcloak is listed as level 15, so his disintegrate does 30d6 damage, average of 105. Hinjo is listed as level 11, which nets him 10+10d10 hit points, for an average of 65. And he was hit by the octopus in the previous strip. I do think this implies Hinjo has a good constitution score (16? 18?).

However, Comic #238 would suggest that (no pun intended) Elan has Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0238.html) which requires 9 ranks. I only say Suggestion because Elan specifically mentions "a charming bard song to enchant them into following him" which is pretty much the Suggestion ability.
Agreed.

Another example of Elan being Inspirational without his instruments - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html

Pompey knows animate rope - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html

Xykon knows Animate Dead Animal, which I believe is from Tome and Blood. First page of SOD. Xykon also has a Teevo.

Oh yeah, and Yikyik and Yokyok are deceased. Zz'tdri has met a Fate Worse Than Death :smalleek:

Durkon has Still Spell - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html (that also explains why he can cast while holding his weapons)

V knows at least one Sonic spell - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html

He had an entry in C&LGII (the previous thread), but it basically just said that we don't know much about him. If someone wanted to make a list of what we know about him and/or his possessions, I'd be happy to add it to the villians sections.
I believe the whole joke about :mitd: is that we know next to nothing about him; it somehow sounds appropriate to make an entry for him that says next to nothing :smallsmile:
What can we guess? Str 30+, DR greater than Miko's damage with a Katana, int 6, wis 3? His perception really is that abysmal, as is his common sense.

If adding more characters is an option, perhaps http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/julia.png the airhead wizard? Or http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-8/1204323/Shojo.jpg the aristocrat with Improved Paranoia?

Chronos

2007-10-30, 06:44 PM

Xykon knows Animate Dead Animal, which I believe is from Tome and Blood. First page of SOD.Strictly speaking, Xykon does not cast a spell on the first page of SoD. It's not a spell unless it's controllable; a young sorcerer will often produce random manifestations of magical energy.

But even calling it a spell, why wouldn't the ordinary Animate Dead work just as well?

Kurald Galain

2007-10-30, 06:48 PM

But even calling it a spell, why wouldn't the ordinary Animate Dead work just as well?

Because he's not level ten yet at that point. ADA is a level-one variant that works on animals only.

Chrismith

2007-10-30, 08:11 PM

I'm not sure. But he was hit by Redcloak's disintegrate, failed his saving throw, and lived. Redcloak is listed as level 15, so his disintegrate does 30d6 damage, average of 105. Hinjo is listed as level 11, which nets him 10+10d10 hit points, for an average of 65. And he was hit by the octopus in the previous strip. I do think this implies Hinjo has a good constitution score (16? 18?).

Do we know for sure that Hinjo failed his save? I agree that it looks like he did, but if he has 65 hp, even 5d6 damage in a single hit can pack a wallop. It's also possible that Hinjo failed his save, but that Redcloak simply didn't roll high enough damage to kill him. While I think that Hinjo probably has a decent Con modifier, I don't think we can prove anything from this instance.

Pompey knows animate rope - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html

Good catch, added.

Porthos

2007-10-30, 08:35 PM

Do we know for sure that Hinjo failed his save? I agree that it looks like he did, but if he has 65 hp, even 5d6 damage in a single hit can pack a wallop.

Considering that afterwards Hinjo is the most scratched up person we have ever seen in the comic (even more than O-Chul), yes I think we can say he failed his save. :smallwink:

Kreistor

2007-10-30, 10:20 PM

WRecan, the Spoiler tags popping up reminds me: there's a lot ofspoilers in this thread. You should edit [spoiler] into the thread name.

Chronos

2007-10-30, 10:49 PM

Do we know for sure that Hinjo failed his save? I agree that it looks like he did, but if he has 65 hp, even 5d6 damage in a single hit can pack a wallop.We've already seen him shrug off a Harm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) with a lot less apparent damage. I don't know what a huecueva's caster level is, but even if it's only 11, and even given that Hinjo saved, that's still 55 points of damage. Plus what appears to be a Firestorm (or maybe a Flamestrike) for another (at least) 5.5d6 damage a few panels later. He wouldn't even notice a Disintegrate on a successful save.

CasESenSITItiVE

2007-10-30, 11:20 PM

Chronos

2007-10-30, 11:38 PM

forgive me if this has been covered already, i haven't been able to look through all 4 pages, but i think weapon finesse is alot more likelyWeapon finesse only helps your chance to hit, not your damage.

Kreistor

2007-10-30, 11:55 PM

firstly, people have argued earlier that belkar must have a high strength to be doing the amount of damage he does with two small daggers. forgive me if this has been covered already, i haven't been able to look through all 4 pages, but i think weapon finesse is alot more likely

Also, in comic 387 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), we saw thog utterly smash prison bars. if someone looked up the DC for this(i don't have the Player's Handbook on me right now, sorry), we might be able to find a more accurate estimation of thog's strength

Table: DCs to Break or Burst Items
Strength Check to: DC
Break down simple door 13
Break down good door 18
Break down strong door 23
Burst rope bonds 23
Bend iron bars 24
Break down barred door 25
Burst chain bonds 26
Break down iron door 28

Without Rage, Thog achieves "Bend Iron Bars" at DC24 in panel 387.2.8, which makes it a minimum 18 Str. If one is feeling generous, Thog may have Broken down an Iron Door in panel 387.2.10 with Rage, giving him a minimum 22 Strength. (Note that Elan uses Inspire Competence in panel 9, which the Giant seesm to think would help Thog, but this ability only helps skills, not Ability Checks, so Elan is wasting a song. If you feel the Giant just missed that little detail, Thog's Str is still an 18.) If one is not generous, it might only have been a barred door at DC25, and we're still stuck at Str 18.

Vargtass

2007-10-31, 03:32 AM

From an old thread (The one compilation to RULE THEM ALL, by RAGE KING):

What we know about the MitD:

1. Medium or Large in Size (probably large, or powerful build.)
2. Has two eyes and one mouth(that we know of)
3. Leaves tracks when it moves, so not a hovering creature.
4. Has appendages (hands, tentacles, whatever) for holding objects.
5. Has clawed feet
6. Possessed of incredible strength.
7. Has incredibly high damage resistance or AC. Neither Miko or Belkar succeeded in dealing any damage to the creature with a full attack.
8. May possess ability to cause an earthquake by stomping, or that may be aneffect caused by its freakish strength.
9. Intelligent enough to learn and carry out a conversation in Common.
10. Child-like in mentality, may be a young member of its species, or maybe just a low WIS.
11. Insatiable appetite, the monster is hungry all the time (or maybe Xykon just forgets to feed it). - May be related to #20.
12. Lack of discerning taste. Will eat just about anything, and appears to digest anything without problems.
13. Rare but not unique creature.
14. Probably not a typical humanoid->possibly not humanoid, given the weird tracks it leaves.
15. Unable to spot Gates for some reason. Low Wis+no ranks in spot, or related to Snarl in some fashion? - or thats just comic relief
16. Attracts Demon Roaches for some reason, filthy eating habits, or clue? - or that's just comic relief
17. Low intelligence
18. Probably has a few supernatural powers (or extraordinary, or spell-like, or whatever).
19. Apparently has short term memory loss.
20. Possibly gets tired/hungry after using its supernatural abilities.
21. Doesn't use its powers on purpose (they come automatically.)
22. Doesn't know about its own powers.
23. Has some version of shout and earthquake as spell-like or natural abilities.
24. Toriko believes it's a gazebo!
25. Possibly Half giant or other creature with stomp. (however, see #14).
26. Loves stew
27. SoD spoilers

Likes toys, and tacos. Doesn't feel sadness very much. Was smart enough to think up bilver on the spot.

Quite comprehensive, I think.

Kish

2007-10-31, 06:03 AM

Also, in comic 387 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), we saw thog utterly smash prison bars. if someone looked up the DC for this(i don't have the Player's Handbook on me right now, sorry), we might be able to find a more accurate estimation of thog's strength
It's a Hulk joke.

Castamir

2007-10-31, 07:04 AM

But Cure Serious Wounds is a third-level spell, not a fourth-level one. Why is it a contradiction? *confused*For a ranger, like Belkar, it is a fourth-level spell.

While I believe the rules for scrolls are badly written, it remains that no indication of spell level is included when scribing a scroll, nor of caster class beyond the arcane/divine distinction. So the spell level for the caster must be used to determine the minimum ability score needed to use the scroll. Which, for Belkar, would be Wis 14.
That's answered in the very next question in the FAQ.
Except, the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) is crystal clear on this point, and says the FAQ is wrong:

Likewise, some divine spells are different in level for clerics and druids than they are for paladins and rangers. Such spells appear at the level appropriate to a cleric or druid (considered the default because paladins and rangers typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).
So a CSW scroll comes at level 3 even when read by a ranger. And if so, everything matches perfectly and Belkar has Wis score of 9.

Chrismith

2007-10-31, 07:50 AM

Except, the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) is crystal clear on this point, and says the FAQ is wrong:

So a CSW scroll comes at level 3 even when read by a ranger. And if so, everything matches perfectly and Belkar has Wis score of 9.

I'm fairly certain you're misinterpreting that. What it's referring to is caster level -- for example, Greater Magic Weapon is a level 3 paladin spell, and Paladins get level 3 spells at 11th level. So a Greater Magic Weapon scroll scribed by a Paladin would be assumed to have a default CL of 11. In contrast, Greater Magic Weapon is a 4th level cleric spell, but clerics get level 4 spells at 7th level. So a scroll scribed by a cleric would have a default level of 7. What that rule is saying is that the Cleric's CL should be taken as the default -- finding a divine scroll of GMW means that it is cast at level 7, not level 11.

If that hasn't convinced you, take a closer look at this example. GMW is 4th level for the Cleric, 3rd level for the Paladin. By your interpretation, a Paladin who has 13 Charisma and finds a scroll of Greater Magic Weapon wouldn't be able to use it, even though he can cast the spell naturally, because going off of the Cleric spell list he would need 14 Charisma. Which is just ridiculous.

Wrecan

2007-10-31, 01:04 PM

He is misreading that statement. The paragraph is merely telling you where on the magic item list the spell "appears". That way you don't go nuts looking for Cure Serious Wounds scrolls amongst the 4th level divine scroll list.

You can tell this by looking at the preceding paragraph in that section of the SRD:

Several arcane spells are different in level for sorcerers and wizards than they are for bards. Such spells appear on the table at the level appropriate to a sorcerer or wizard (considered the default because bards typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

So "appear" in this context merely means "appear on the table". It doesn't mean "is considered this level for purposes of casting."

Another reason you cannot use the scriber's spell level when determining the caster's ability to use is that it would allow Wizards to scribe scrolls into their spellbooks at a lower level. In other words, Obscure Object is a 1st level bard spell and a 2nd level wizard spell. If a first-level wizard had a bard scribe the spell as a 1st level arcane scroll, the wizard would be able to cast the spell as a scroll (assuming an 11 Intelligence), and would therefore also be able to scribe the spell into his spellbook (with the appropriate Spellcraft check) as a 1st level spell. All of the sudden, this wizard can now memorize and cast Obscure Object as a 1st level spell, even though it should otherwise be a second level spell for him, and he shouldn't be able to cast it until he is third level!

Conversely, if we rule that all Obscure Object scrolls are 2nd level because that's where it "appears" on the scroll chart, then a 1st level bard with Scribe Scroll and Charisma 11 could create an Obscure Object scroll, and yet not read it, because it suddenly requires a Charisma of 12! He can't read his own scroll.

If we instead use the level of the spell as it appears on the reader's spell list, as opposed to thhe scriber's spell list, these problems disappear.

Vargtass

2007-11-01, 03:18 AM

Haley states here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html) that Hide is her best skill.
In the introductory bonus strips of DCF it is made clear that she spent bonus skill points from her human race benefits to boost hide. This also somewhat proves that she is also Human. Therefore, it makes sense that hide should be maxed (16), as is Bluff. Overall, I do not see tha other evidence for 15 ranks in a lot of her skills. Are this maxed ranks left from her previous level, or am I missing something?

In the same strip, Haley's self-loathing also calls her "far too smart to indulge in this kind of sophistry". Is this a weak argument for a high intelligence? Together with the illithid food strip, it seems reasonable, if wisdom is indeed low.

Wrecan

2007-11-01, 07:39 AM

Haley states here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html) that Hide is her best skill.
That was one level ago, though it's likely she kept it maked out. I'll insert the "greater or equal sign".

I do not see tha other evidence for 15 ranks in a lot of her skills. Are this maxed ranks left from her previous level, or am I missing something?
The only other skill with 15 is Open Locks and that's because of her picking the lock in the Azure CIty prison. That will also get a greater or equal than sign.

In the same strip, Haley's self-loathing also calls her "far too smart to indulge in this kind of sophistry". Is this a weak argument for a high intelligence?
Heck, an 8 Int may be too smart for that kind of sophistry!

baerdith

2007-11-02, 01:05 AM

Strip 500 pegs Roys age at 29. His birthday was "last week"

Ertier

2007-11-03, 07:36 PM

Miko has 0 Ranks in Knowledge (What the Hell She's[You're] Talking About)
Link Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html)

Koraks

2007-11-03, 07:41 PM

Miko has 0 Ranks in Knowledge (What the Hell She's[You're] Talking About)
Link Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html)

I think it was a generalising insult about paladins in general, not an actual fact.

OmegaDonut

2007-11-04, 02:28 AM

Pompey must have the Still Spell feat in order to use Animate Rope while tied up. And there's no evidence for him to have Scribe Scroll as a feat, since Nale just told him to buy the Sending scrolls, not make them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)

EDIT #2: Yokyok's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) about not wanting to "stoop to travel with such scoundrels as the Linear Guild" and being "pure righteous justice" would suggest that he is Lawful Good. It fits in with the Evil Opposites theme, too (Belkar being the evil opposite, of course :smallwink: ).

Kreistor

2007-11-04, 03:29 AM

And there's no evidence for him to have Scribe Scroll as a feat, since Nale just told him to buy the Sending scrolls, not make them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)

All Wizards get Scribe Scroll at L1 free.

Chrismith

2007-11-04, 07:22 AM

Pompey must have the Still Spell feat in order to use Animate Rope while tied up.

That's a very good point. And it looks like he has Silent Spell as well -- he casts it without Roy being aware. That means he prepared Animate Rope as a level 3 spell, though, and that's going to bump his level up.

The problem is that if he was capable of casting level 3 spells, he would have gotten a bonus conjuration spell, which means we probably would have seen him cast Summon Monster III at some point instead of just II and I.

Anyway, judging by this evidence, he needs 3/3/1 spells per day, meaning that he's either level 5 with 14 int or level 6 with 13 int.

Amon Star

2007-11-04, 07:53 AM

EDIT #2: Yokyok's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) about not wanting to "stoop to travel with such scoundrels as the Linear Guild" and being "pure righteous justice" would suggest that he is Lawful Good. It fits in with the Evil Opposites theme, too (Belkar being the evil opposite, of course :smallwink: ).

That would make sense. Also,Rich thought about having a Lawful Good opposite to :belkar: with the first Linear Guild, but didn't because it wouldn't have made sense.However, this time it obviously did.

Anyway, though languages aren't being listed, I just want to point out that:xykon: can speak Draconic.

Nerd-o-rama

2007-11-04, 01:16 PM

That's a very good point. And it looks like he has Silent Spell as well -- he casts it without Roy being aware. That means he prepared Animate Rope as a level 3 spell, though, and that's going to bump his level up.
Maybe Roy failed his Listen Check? Against a DC 5 or so, but it's possible.

Actually, it'd be a DC 0 or 15, depending on whether the DM wanted to be nice or not...but where's the strip on this? I can't find the reference.

Porthos

2007-11-04, 01:42 PM

Maybe Roy failed his Listen Check? Against a DC 5 or so, but it's possible.

Actually, it'd be a DC 0 or 15, depending on whether the DM wanted to be nice or not...but where's the strip on this? I can't find the reference.

Seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html).

RMS Oceanic

2007-11-04, 02:01 PM

Elan gets an Eyepatch and Durkon gets Ceremonial Wedding Robes added to their respective possessions.

Porthos

2007-11-04, 02:10 PM

Elan gets an Eyepatch and Durkon gets Ceremonial Wedding Robes added to their respective possessions.

It looks like a stole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stole) of some type to me, since you can clearly see Durkon's armor on either side and between the blue strips.

Chronos

2007-11-04, 02:31 PM

Pompey must have the Still Spell feat in order to use Animate Rope while tied up.Remember, he wasn't tied up by someone hostile to him, so Nale or whoever it was might have just left the bonds loose enough that they didn't restrict him. And he might have cast it just before Roy showed up, so he wouldn't necessarily even have heard a verbal component, either.

For Durkon, just put down "Ceremonial vestments". That way we don't have to figure out exactly what it is.

Porthos

2007-11-04, 03:00 PM

And he might have cast it just before Roy showed up, so he wouldn't necessarily even have heard a verbal component, either.

Sounds like a plan. :smallsmile:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateRope.htm

The possible commands are “coil” (form a neat, coiled stack), “coil and knot,” “loop,” “loop and knot,” “tie and knot,” and the opposites of all of the above (“uncoil,” and so forth). You can give one command each round as a move action, as if directing an active spell.

It's definitely possible that Pompey said "uncoil" under his gag (Roy was giving a huge speech at the time and not paying attention). And since at LVL 4, 14 Int, Pompey does have a 1st level spell left.

Round One: Pompey hears Roy approaching and casts Animate Rope as a standard action.
Round One: Pompey says "coil" as a move action and coils himself.
Round One: Sabine has loosened rope over hands that just look tight and thus is irrelevant to further rounds.
Round Two: Roy runs in starts speechi-fing and takes off Julia's gag.
Round Three: Roy continues to pontificate (it's a long speech) and Julia tries to warn him about Pompey and Sabine.
Round Three: Pompey says "uncoil" and loosens his bonds.
Round Three: Pompey stands up.
Round Three: Sabine shakes off her bonds on her hands and starts to shift to fiendsish form.
Round Four: Pompey and Sabine get ready to attack.

If Pompey cast Animate Rope offscreen, then that should account for all of his spells in the battle. :smallsmile:

Chrismith

2007-11-04, 03:36 PM

Sounds like a plan. :smallsmile:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateRope.htm

It's definitely possible that Pompey said "uncoil" under his gag (Roy was giving a huge speech at the time and not paying attention).

[snip]

If Pompey cast Animate Rope offscreen, then that should account for all of his spells in the battle. :smallsmile:

Except that we actually see (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html) Pompey casting the spell in the comic, while Roy is standing right there.

Also, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#verbalV) (emphasis mine):

A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell).

So Pompey can't just whisper the verbal component or mumble it under his breath. And we would see in the comic if he said something aloud.

Wrecan

2007-11-04, 03:42 PM

Elan just go himself an eyepatch!

Porthos

2007-11-04, 04:20 PM

Except that we actually see (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html) Pompey casting the spell in the comic, while Roy is standing right there..

The problem I have with that is making Pompey 5th or 6th level just makes him too powerful to be at an apprentice school, even one that is "one of the most gifted" students. Besides, as you noted, why didn't he cast Summon Monster III?

However, if we interject a bit of artistic license, then the glow we see could just be Pompey directing the spell, as noted above. After all, we still see a magical glow around Pompey when he is standing at the end of #342, and he wasn't casting a spell there. It wouldn't be the first time that Rich has had a Magical Glow Affect without a corresponding spell.

Also, it starts to stretch disbelief that spells with durations of 5 or so minutes would have expire during the battle. I have enough trouble with 4 minutes duration. :smallwink: I guess what I am saying is that if we can make a reasonable case for Pompey being 4th level, I'd rather take that than presume he was 5th. Simply because 5th level just feels to high for me.

But I'm not going to argue that strenuously on this point. :smallsmile:

Chrismith

2007-11-04, 04:32 PM

The problem I have with that is making Pompey 5th or 6th level just makes him too powerful to be at an apprentice school, even one that is "one of the most gifted" students. Besides, as you noted, why didn't he cast Summon Monster III?

However, if we interject a bit of artistic license, then the glow we see could just be Pompey directing the spell, as noted above. After all, we still see a magical glow around Pompey when he is standing at the end of #342, and he wasn't casting a spell there. It wouldn't be the first time that Rich has had a Magical Glow Affect without a corresponding spell.

Also, it starts to stretch disbelief that spells with durations of 5 or so minutes would have expire during the battle. I have enough trouble with 4 minutes duration. :smallwink: I guess what I am saying is that if we can make a reasonable case for Pompey being 4th level, I'd rather take that than presume he was 5th. Simply because 5th level just feels to high for me.

But I'm not going to argue that strenuously on this point. :smallsmile:

I thought about it a bit, and while I think that he's actually casting the spell on-screen, it is pretty ambiguous. The evidence isn't really conclusive, and having it just be a level 1 Animate Rope fits nicely, meaning that he used all of his spells in the battle. For now, I've changed his level back to 4+.

RMS Oceanic

2007-11-06, 02:23 AM

...aaaand there goes Elan's Eyepatch. Durkon still needs his stole added. Note that it's the same colour as the robes he wore in #305, so I think it's just part of his ceremonial ritual kit.

Wrecan

2007-11-06, 08:34 AM

Eyepatch removed (from Elan and the list), Durkon's vestments added!

Kimpire

2007-11-07, 02:11 AM

I wouldn't necessarily remove the eyepatch from his positions.... yes, Hinjo took it off him by force, but we don't necessarily know that he'd keep it away from Elan.

For all we know it'd be exactly like the belt of gender-changing, and it'll sit around in Elan's pocket for the next 200 strips until suddenly it makes a surprise return.

Vargtass

2007-11-07, 03:06 AM

Lithe but well-muscled body seems to indicate higher than average strength and dexterity on Elan's part, and Therkla's noticing this (and the other things she said) points to the high Charisma score (which was already known). Which skill is used for seduction? Perhaps ranks in that skill can also be implied?

... no solid evidence though...

RMS Oceanic

2007-11-07, 04:34 AM

I know it makes sense with his fighting with a rapier and all, but where does it say that Elan has Weapon Finesse?

Vargtass

2007-11-07, 05:07 AM

I know it makes sense with his fighting with a rapier and all, but where does it say that Elan has Weapon Finesse?

I think perhaps this old gem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html)has been used as an indication. I can't remember a direct reference.

Kurald Galain

2007-11-07, 05:24 AM

Vargtass

2007-11-07, 06:47 AM

I'm not so sure Elan has high strength. The main selling point of the Dashing Swordsman was that it would add his cha modifier to weapon damage, and there'd be no point in doing that if his str modifier was already high. DS appears to make a big difference in Elan's skill, so he couldn't just have, say, str 16 cha 18, because that'd only be a +1 difference.

Based on "well-muscled body" I would suggest updating Elan's strength to <10 insted of ~10. Dex is listed as minimum 14, from Weapon finesse and tumbling. It makes no sense to have Weapon finesse if Strength is as high, and the choice of Dashing swordsman indeed indicates that Charisma is considerably higher than either Strength or Dexterity. From this it can be concluded that Elan's stats follow: STR<DEX<CHA, and a fair guess would place the stats at STR: 11-14, DEX: 14-16, and CHA: 18+ (I suspect more like 20-21).

Wrecan

2007-11-07, 08:33 AM

I wouldn't necessarily remove the eyepatch from his positions.

Last we saw, the eyepatch was not in Elan's possession. SO it's not on his list of possession until we see differently.

Which skill is used for seduction? Perhaps ranks in that skill can also be implied?
Diplomacy is the skill, but it can only be used actively. All this tells us is Elan has a high Charisma, which we already knew.

I know it makes sense with his fighting with a rapier and all, but where does it say that Elan has Weapon Finesse?
A bard with a rapier and no Weapon Finesse is like a druid without Natural Spell. Even Elan isn't that foolish.

From this it can be concluded that Elan's stats follow: STR<DEX<CHA, and a fair guess would place the stats at STR: 11-14, DEX: 14-16, and CHA: 18+ (I suspect more like 20-21).

That is a fair guess, but I'll need more before I make a change to his entry.

Amon Star

2007-11-07, 12:13 PM

A bard with a rapier and no Weapon Finesse is like a druid without Natural Spell. Even Elan isn't that foolish.

That's debatable. This IS :elan: we're talking about.

Wrecan

2007-11-07, 02:00 PM

That's debatable. This IS :elan: we're talking about.

Even creatures with non-ability in Intelligence are smart enough to get Weapon Finesse! If Elan had Animal Int, he'd get Weapon Finesse as a Bonus Feat!

wojonatior

2007-11-07, 02:53 PM

elan's cha should be higher beacuse his new class and his bard class are both cha based and he probaly some how increased his cha(like at lv 12) also haley probably said yeah durkon you can store your golden tankard in one of my bags of holding then sold it:smallamused:

Vargtass

2007-11-08, 07:50 AM

The tankard would not fit ino the bag's opening, so no.

Wrecan

2007-11-08, 08:34 AM

elan's cha should be higher
That's why I use the "greater than or equal symbol"

haley probably said yeah durkon you can store your golden tankard in one of my bags of holding then sold it:smallamused:
When we see Haley pull out the tankard, it goes on her list. Not before.

Jasdoif

2007-11-08, 02:26 PM

When we see Haley pull out the tankard, it goes on her list. Not before.It's also worth noting that a lot of the accumulated treasure was destroyed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html), or at the very least trapped in some now-inaccessible extraplanar locale. No treasure that hasn't been seen since then can be assumed to be in anyone's possession, much less Haley's.

Zone

2007-11-08, 03:06 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0092.html

Here Roy's running slower than others while carrying Durkon. Does it mean that he can run, like, 40 feet while others can run 60 feet? Even Belkar is quicker than Roy.

Chronos

2007-11-08, 03:07 PM

Kurald Galain

2007-11-08, 03:35 PM

Here Roy's running slower than others while carrying Durkon. Does it mean that he can run, like, 40 feet while others can run 60 feet? Even Belkar is quicker than Roy.

Roy's speed is reduced because he's wearing medium armor, yes.

Jasdoif

2007-11-08, 03:38 PM

Only mundane bags were destroyed in the explosion. We know that Haley at some point had 8 Bags of Holding, and we know that as of when she set out to recover Roy's corpse, she still had more than one (since she says she can put the corpse in "one of my bags of holding"). The logical inference from that is that she keeps her Bags of Holding on her person, and so would have kept all 8 of them. Meanwhile, at the time of the inn explosion, all of her Bags of Holding were full, hence why she can only lug one heavy mundane bag at a time. So the Order (or more precisely, Haley) still has a great deal of treasure (even the smallest Bag of Holding has quite a large capacity).A fair line of reasoning...however, the point remains that a lot of treasure was destroyed in the explosion. Haley was carrying the carts used to haul the treasure in her bags of holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), and given Haley's love for treasure I would have to assume the space they occupied was already filled with treasure, prior to loading up the carts.

So whatever was in the carts would have to be stored in the inn. Or more, if Haley swapped out the stored treasure for the carts. Either way, the survivability of any particular treasure item is questionable if it hasn't been seen since the explosion.

Kreistor

2007-11-08, 04:05 PM

So whatever was in the carts would have to be stored in the inn. Or more, if Haley swapped out the stored treasure for the carts. Either way, the survivability of any particular treasure item is questionable if it hasn't been seen since the explosion.

Only mundane items which the characters never treated as personally important. It is not reasonable to think that useful magical items of any sort were kept in the relatively unsecure bags separated from the characters in this way. In fact, there is no reason for anything on any character to have been moved to these bags, instead of being kept in their normal location.

In short, it is only reasonable to assume the destroyed treasure was purely monetary in value, and not substantially important to the characters.

Jasdoif

2007-11-08, 04:15 PM

Only mundane items which the characters never treated as personally important. It is not reasonable to think that useful magical items of any sort were kept in the relatively unsecure bags separated from the characters in this way. In fact, there is no reason for anything on any character to have been moved to these bags, instead of being kept in their normal location.

In short, it is only reasonable to assume the destroyed treasure was purely monetary in value, and not substantially important to the characters.Oh, I agree entirely; it stops being "treasure" to me if it has better use then monetary worth.

I'm pretty sure the gold tankard that started this chain of posts was purely monetary in value, if not simply a one-shot gag.

Chronos

2007-11-08, 07:50 PM

Assuming that they kept the tankard for long enough to matter, and assuming that they had some extradimensional space they could store it in, they probably would have, just because that's a rather unwieldly item to carry around. A pile of coins, you can split up into a half-dozen different mundane bags, but you can't do that with a big single object. But that tankard is unimportant enough that I don't think we need to worry about it specifically, unless it turns up again. Until then, it can just be included in the catch-all "treasure", and may or may not have been in the portion of the treasure that was destroyed.

MCerberus

2007-11-08, 08:09 PM

I still really don't see any HARD evidence for Durkon's Extra Turning feat. The standard amount that a cleric without the feat can turn without a CHA bonus is 3. We haven't seen him turn more than 3 per day.

Wrecan

2007-11-08, 09:18 PM

It is likely that Durkon has a negative Charisma, in which case he would need Extra Turning in order to turn undead three times a day.

PsyBlade

2007-11-08, 09:23 PM

I don't think he has a negative charisma. He did manage to get laid. Not much proof of that though.

Mr Wizard

2007-11-08, 09:25 PM

I don't think he has a negative charisma. He did manage to get laid. Not much proof of that though.

So did Eugene.:smallsigh:

:smallbiggrin:

MCerberus

2007-11-08, 09:34 PM

His CHA is still labeled as <= 10 because there isn't any hard evidence, and since his turning would be dependent on that score wouldn't "Extra Turning?" or some other errata stating that it isn't proven be put up?

RMS Oceanic

2007-11-09, 06:41 AM

Vaarsuvius now knows Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html).

Zeb The Troll

2007-11-09, 07:05 AM

Vaarsuvius now knows Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html).What level do you suppose it is? I'm just curious.

Kish

2007-11-09, 07:07 AM

I don't know if you're only addressing RMS Oceanic, but I'd guess it's level 7, the highest level Vaarsuvius is established as being able to cast. Considering how much s/he wants to contact Haley, anything less would be inefficient, and of course anything more would be impossible.

Zeb The Troll

2007-11-09, 07:13 AM

If memory serves, though, all we really know is that it's higher than fourth.

Kurald Galain

2007-11-09, 07:41 AM

I don't know if you're only addressing RMS Oceanic, but I'd guess it's level 7, the highest level Vaarsuvius is established as being able to cast.

Seconded. Also, he specifically calls it a "spell of greater potency".

Vargtass

2007-11-09, 08:08 AM

Chrismith

2007-11-09, 08:46 AM

I tried to find the rules for how long it takes to research spells of different levels, but could not find that in the SRD. Perhaps this can be used to peg the level of the spell? It took V between 3 and 4 month to complete it.

V hasn't been researching the spell the entire time they've been at sea, only for the last few weeks. Durkon said that he hadn't seen V for a few weeks, and V mentioned that he procured the necessary supplies to research the spell during their last stop.

Wrecan

2007-11-09, 08:46 AM

Vaarsuvius' new spell has been added! The length of time needed to research a spell is entirely DM-dependent, so there's no help there. I agree the spell is probably 7th level.

Wrecan

2007-11-09, 08:48 AM

Chrismith

2007-11-09, 09:03 AM

Vaarsuvius' new spell has been added! The length of time needed to research a spell is entirely DM-dependent, so there's no help there. I agree the spell is probably 7th level.

Actually, according to the DMG, page 198, under "Researching Original Spells":

A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell. The research to
do this requires access to a well-stocked library, typically in a large
city or metropolis. Research requires an expenditure of 1,000 gp
per week and takes one week per level of the spell.

We can assume that V picked up all the necessary books on their stop. As Zeb pointed out, the regular Scrying spell is fourth level, so V's Enhanced version is likely higher, but 7 weeks seems a little long (has it really been that long since their last stop?). 7th level would make sense, though.

Vargtass

2007-11-09, 09:06 AM

Can you allow faster research time if the researcher is exhausting hirself?

Zone

2007-11-09, 09:15 AM

Roy's speed is reduced because he's wearing medium armor, yes.

What I meant, does he really run as fast as stated or does he run a bit slower (having lower strenght than 20).

Kreistor

2007-11-09, 09:18 AM

Can you allow faster research time if the researcher is exhausting hirself?

There are no rules allowing that. Of course my players have asked the same (specifically a warforged who technically cannot exhaust himself), but I do not allow it.

One perspective is that tiredness leads to mistakes, which with magic can lead to self-destruction.

Chrismith

2007-11-09, 09:22 AM

There are no rules allowing that. Of course my players have asked the same (specifically a warforged who technically cannot exhaust himself), but I do not allow it.

One perspective is that tiredness leads to mistakes, which with magic can lead to self-destruction.

I can't find any specific rules allowing or disallowing this in any 3.5 books, but the following is from Tome and Blood, which is 3.0:

Your character needs a quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells (see Chapter 10: Magic in the Player’s Handbook) is suitable for researching a spell. She is assumed to work for 8 hours each day and cannot rush the process by working longer. A character can only work on one spell at a time. She can do nothing else while working. During rest periods, she can engage in light activity such as talking or walking but cannot fight, cast spells, use magic items, conduct other research, craft magic items, or perform any other physically or mentally demanding task. She can take a short break from working (for naps and the like) as often as she likes, so long as she spends at least 8 hours out of every 24 working on the spell. She cannot take a day off: Once the process has started, she must see it through to the end or admit defeat. If she is disturbed while researching the spell, or spends less than 8 hours working in any period of 24 hours, the process is ruined.

Judging by this, it's not possible to rush, because you can't do anything other than research anyway.

Wrecan

2007-11-09, 09:48 AM

Actually, according to the DMG, page 198, under "Researching Original Spells":Hmm. I stand corrected!

Porthos

2007-11-09, 11:35 AM

I don't see why we have to be limited, time wise, to the last time V stopped at a port. V could have been researching this spell for weeks and realized the he had insufficient supplies/materials/background knowledge. So when they were last at port, V picked up whatever he needed, and went on to complete his research.

Flavor wise, this seems to agree with the spirit of the rule, if not the outright letter of it.

Amon Star

2007-11-10, 09:38 AM

Forealms

2007-11-10, 09:42 PM

I'm curious... you say that Haley has eight bags of holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), but only one was recovered from the exploding hotel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html).

Unless I have misunderstood the events?

EDIT: Ninja'd about a bajillion times or so :smalltongue:

That's what I've earned for not looking back through the posts...

Anealen

2007-11-14, 10:51 AM

I've the impression (based on #506) that dexterity is not the best stat for Therkla.
I mean, she could see the Troll falling on her, but could not avoid it.
Maybe that is not a reasonable evidence, what do you think?

Wrecan

2007-11-14, 12:48 PM

I'm curious... you say that Haley has eight bags of holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html),
Those aren't bags of holding. Those are mundane bags. Bags of holding are the size of pouches and wouldn't be seen usually. Haley shouldn't have lost any opf her magical bags.

Kreistor

2007-11-14, 12:57 PM

Those aren't bags of holding. Those are mundane bags. Bags of holding are the size of pouches and wouldn't be seen usually. Haley shouldn't have lost any opf her magical bags.

No they aren't, Wrecan.

Bag of Holding: This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size.

That's bigger than your standard eco-friendly cloth grocery bag. They're big sacks.

Wrecan

2007-11-14, 01:38 PM

That's bigger than your standard eco-friendly cloth grocery bag. They're big sacks.

Either way, they're a lot smaller than the sacks Haley and V carried out of the inn. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html),we see the sacks being hauled on carts. There's no need to haul bags of holding in wagons.

Prowl

2007-11-15, 05:12 PM

I think I can add a few corrections.

- If it is correct that V's INT is higher than Roy's, Roy's INT is less than 18, as V's INT is 18 as of OOTS#31. While it is technically possible that Roy chose to increase his int as a level-up stat bonus, it would be a quite remarkable choice given his profession and already above-average INT. So his INT score possibility range should be narrowed to have a maximum of 17.

- "Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient" is probably not a permanent possession of Belkar's. A circumstance bonus applies only to the circumstance, it's likely just a spice he found in the area while foraging.

- V's Ring of Wizardry definitely affects level 3 spells (Suggestion is a 3rd level spell, yes?), as per OOTS #182.

Kurald Galain

2007-11-15, 05:52 PM

- If it is correct that V's INT is higher than Roy's, Roy's INT is less than 18
Agreed.

- "Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient" is probably not a permanent possession of Belkar's.
On the contrary, I think it is. It looks like he's holding a small jar of some sort, and somebody's "secret ingredient" sounds more like a mysterious spice carried around, than a herb that just happens to also grow in whatever strange place Belkar happens to find himself. Note that any masterwork tool gives a circumstance bonuses.

Chrismith

2007-11-15, 08:33 PM

V's Ring of Wizardry definitely affects level 3 spells (Suggestion is a 3rd level spell, yes?), as per OOTS #182.

That makes the most sense, but it could theoretically affect V's 4th level spells instead. It was specified that lizard V didn't prepare any higher-level spells, so all of the 4th-level slots could have been filled with Suggestions.

Prowl

2007-11-15, 08:41 PM

That makes the most sense, but it could theoretically affect V's 4th level spells instead. It was specified that lizard V didn't prepare any higher-level spells, so all of the 4th-level slots could have been filled with Suggestions.

True. I guess all we can say for certain is that the Ring's effects are not limited to 1st and 2nd-level spells.

madmotoristmonk

2007-11-16, 01:57 AM

Porthos

2007-11-16, 03:04 AM

Sorry to bother but what exactly did you put down for O' Chul's HP? Hinjo said he was the toughest (I'd plow that along with possibly the highest fort. or const. stats) I mean Homeboy was right next to that throne when it got blown up. And You could see the boom from a good distance.

Here is some analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2892470&postcount=43) I did on a possible range for O-Chul's hitpoints. :smallsmile:

I have him pegged for around 143-146 hp's (see post for full reasoning - I can repeat it here if people wish to pick it apart). He might actually have a few more, but I figured it was more dramatic if he was reduced to a single hit point. :smallsmile:

Balgus

2007-11-16, 11:45 AM

:roy:Roy Greenhilt (currently deceased)
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0490.html), Human Male (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html) Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0285.html) 13
Attributes (39 pt buy min):
Str ?20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html) (from magic item or level boost, analysis here)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ?16 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
Int 14-18 (“very good”, but V's Int is "higher")
Wis ?14 (“very good”)
Cha ?12 (“decent”)
Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0102.html), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0064.html), Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0162.html)...
Skills (?74): Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html)... No Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0139.html) or Sense Motive.
Abilities: Favored class (any)
Items: boots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0401.html), oil of shillelagh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), medium armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html) (justification), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html))..
Dont know if this has been mentioned: citation for roy's lvl
Roy's attack bonus is 20 since +5 = 25% increase. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) So with a +5 str bonus, weapon focus, that means his BAB is 14 (lvl14)

Spiryt

2007-11-16, 12:31 PM

Dont know if this has been mentioned: citation for roy's lvl
Roy's attack bonus is 20 since +5 = 25% increase. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) So with a +5 str bonus, weapon focus, that means his BAB is 14 (lvl14)

The problem is that he can have other attack bonus enchacements, Greater Weapon Focus, if nothing else.

And even if we assume that this is what smith is talking about ( I must say that I didn't get it), it's still "estimation".

Good guess though.

The Linker

2007-11-16, 12:50 PM

Dont know if this has been mentioned: citation for roy's lvl
Roy's attack bonus is 20 since +5 = 25% increase. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) So with a +5 str bonus, weapon focus, that means his BAB is 14 (lvl14)

Originally I thought that the '25% increase' meant it was a +4 sword before, but with the starmetal, it turned into a +5. But that's not that great :smalltongue:

Greg

2007-11-16, 12:52 PM

Roy's attack bonus is 20 since +5 = 25% increase. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) So with a +5 str bonus, weapon focus, that means his BAB is 14 (lvl14)
I thought it was linked to the dice roll on a d20. If you hit on a 10 (50% of the time) with no augmentation, you would hit on a 5 (75% of the time) with augmentation. So 5 more hits out of 20 (i.e. 5/20 = 25% more) would result.

Fussy

2007-11-16, 12:59 PM

Isn't redcloak due a level soon? He defeated that cleric (after a long-ish battle), defeated Hinjo, and certainly got quite a lot of xp from winning over Azure city. His summons - the titanium elementals, hecuva and death knight - also did quite a bit of damage. Though those last 3 probably didn't kill a lot that would warrant xp.

Redcloak with level 9 spells should be fun.

Actually, he pretty much has to level up at some point, or else the order of the stick will just overwhelm him. A well-rounded party of level 14 characters could take redcloak down.

The only other option would be to continue having redcloak being painted as a general (he is the hobgoblin...emperor? king? something) and so the OoTS would have to wade through hundreds of hobgoblins, but I really do like redcloak being powerful (him vs hinjo was class). Heck, I'll say it, and even slap my thigh pantomime-stlye while I say 'heck': Redcloak's my favourite character. I love how Rich has written this character, but this sentence is going off on a wild tangent so I'll stop here.

I want to see R Clizzle dishing out level 9 spells as often as he does sarcastic remarks.

lord_khaine

2007-11-16, 01:59 PM

Dont know if this has been mentioned: citation for roy's lvl
Roy's attack bonus is 20 since +5 = 25% increase. So with a +5 str bonus, weapon focus, that means his BAB is 14 (lvl14)

no the giant himself has come out and said it just means the sword is now +5.

Lord Zentei

2007-11-16, 02:09 PM

I thought it was linked to the dice roll on a d20. If you hit on a 10 (50% of the time) with no augmentation, you would hit on a 5 (75% of the time) with augmentation. So 5 more hits out of 20 (i.e. 5/20 = 25% more) would result.

My interpretation was/is: previously, Roy hit AC such and such X% of the time. Now he hits X+25% of the time. As his attack bonus is specified to have increased by +5, the sword was a regular sword previously (which is consistent with Xykon's ability to shatter it, and the blacksmith's statement that it was made of everyday terrestrial steel).

In other words, "25% increase" means not that the number of times he hits increases by 25%, but the overall percentage chance to hit is 25% higher. It would make more sense for the blacksmith to mean this, because it does not require any knowledge of what Roy's BAB actually is.

Jasdoif

2007-11-16, 02:13 PM

My interpretation was/is: previously, Roy hit AC such and such X% of the time. Now he hits X+25% of the time. As his attack bonus is specified to have increased by +5, the sword was a regular sword previously (which is consistent with Xykon's ability to shatter it, and the blacksmith's statement that it was made of everyday terrestrial steel).Indeed. It's the fundamental nature of the d20 core mechanic: Each +1 increase on the roll increases the chance of success by 5%, unless the target number was/is outside the range where the die roll can affect the outcome.

Chronos

2007-11-16, 05:21 PM

Isn't redcloak due a level soon?Good point... The High Priest was certainly a level-appropriate encounter, and Hinjo was at least high enough level that he'd be worth xp (and Redcloak did defeat him, even though he didn't kill him). Can anyone work out any numbers on the CR of taking the city, and how the resulting xp would be apportioned? And do we have any indication of Redcloak's level dating to before the fight with Miko or the silver dragon (and other Monsters of Light)? Because they'd be worth decent xp as well.

Chrismith

2007-11-16, 10:14 PM

Good point... The High Priest was certainly a level-appropriate encounter, and Hinjo was at least high enough level that he'd be worth xp (and Redcloak did defeat him, even though he didn't kill him). Can anyone work out any numbers on the CR of taking the city, and how the resulting xp would be apportioned? And do we have any indication of Redcloak's level dating to before the fight with Miko or the silver dragon (and other Monsters of Light)? Because they'd be worth decent xp as well.

I'm not even going to attempt to calculate the exp for any of that, but I would like to point out that Redcloak didn't defeat the silver dragon -- Shelby did.

Amon Star

2007-11-17, 06:52 AM

That makes the most sense, but it could theoretically affect V's 4th level spells instead. It was specified that lizard V didn't prepare any higher-level spells, so all of the 4th-level slots could have been filled with Suggestions.

I don't know if this has any merit, but Xykon's ring in the OotS board game Boosts :vaarsuvius:'s Fireballs. Therefore, it's likely that the ring effects 3rd level spells. Assuming, of course, that the board game is anything to go by.

Chrismith

2007-11-17, 08:22 AM

I don't know if this has any merit, but Xykon's ring in the OotS board game Boosts :vaarsuvius:'s Fireballs. Therefore, it's likely that the ring effects 3rd level spells. Assuming, of course, that the board game is anything to go by.

Yes, but we have the same problem there. The spells that V has in the board game, besides the generic "Buff Spell" and "Protection Spell" are Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Magic Missile. None of those are above third level, so if we translate that into D&D terms, it means that all of V's higher-level spell slots are filled with those spells as well. He could have prepared nothing but Lightning Bolts for 3rd level and nothing but Fireballs for 4th level.

That's really beside the point though, because board game mechanics have no bearing on D&D mechanics or the comic. Heck, the ring doesn't even work like a D&D ring of wizardry.

Balgus

2007-11-17, 11:33 AM

The problem is that he can have other attack bonus enchacements, Greater Weapon Focus, if nothing else.

And even if we assume that this is what smith is talking about ( I must say that I didn't get it), it's still "estimation".

Good guess though.GWF is not on his feat list.

Morty

2007-11-17, 01:37 PM

GWF is not on his feat list.

But it may very well be. He's a fighter, he's got plenty of feats to spare. We just don't have any solid proof.

Chronos

2007-11-17, 06:29 PM

I'm not even going to attempt to calculate the exp for any of that, but I would like to point out that Redcloak didn't defeat the silver dragon -- Shelby did.Redcloak was a member of the party which defeated the dragon, so Redcloak, Xykon, and Shelby all gained XP from that battle. And the presence of Shelby drags the average party level down enough to significantly increase the XP earned.

Kish

2007-11-17, 11:37 PM

Redcloak was a member of the party which defeated the dragon, so Redcloak, Xykon, and Shelby all gained XP from that battle. And the presence of Shelby drags the average party level down enough to significantly increase the XP earned.
Xykon said that Shelby had gotten all the XP from it.

mikeejimbo

2007-11-17, 11:44 PM

I would say that Belkar would have to have a 10 Wisdom, because he'd need at least a 14 to cast Cure Serious Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), however, he also has said he has a penalty. Now I'm stuck.

Wrecan

2007-11-18, 12:05 AM

Amon Star

2007-11-18, 05:45 AM

Redcloak was a member of the party which defeated the dragon, so Redcloak, Xykon, and Shelby all gained XP from that battle. And the presence of Shelby drags the average party level down enough to significantly increase the XP earned.

It doesn't work like that in 3.5. Exp is awarded based on individual level, not group level, with higher level members getting less.

Prowl

2007-11-18, 08:28 AM

On Haley's entry, here's the reference for her Use Rope skill rank being 8+

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html

Chrismith

2007-11-18, 09:46 AM

Elan appears to have Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html).

Chronos

2007-11-18, 01:28 PM

Xykon said that Shelby had gotten all the XP from it.Not quite. What he said was "It's just that with all that XP you just earned there, you'll soon be overqualified for the position of Random Mook". Which implies that Shelby earned a lot of experience (as one would expect for a mook defeating an epic challenge), but not that nobody else earned xp from it.

It doesn't work like that in 3.5. Exp is awarded based on individual level, not group level, with higher level members getting less.They keep changing that around just to confuse me, don't they?

Oh, and I agree that Banjuhlu is a result of Prestidigitation. That couldn't be done by any of the Silent Image line of spells, since those are figments, not glamers, but it's a simple enough effect that it's doable with Pres.

Greg

2007-11-18, 04:30 PM

My interpretation was/is: previously, Roy hit AC such and such X% of the time. Now he hits X+25% of the time. As his attack bonus is specified to have increased by +5, the sword was a regular sword previously (which is consistent with Xykon's ability to shatter it, and the blacksmith's statement that it was made of everyday terrestrial steel).

In other words, "25% increase" means not that the number of times he hits increases by 25%, but the overall percentage chance to hit is 25% higher. It would make more sense for the blacksmith to mean this, because it does not require any knowledge of what Roy's BAB actually is.
...which is exactly what I said...

Doug Lampert

2007-11-18, 10:19 PM

They keep changing that around just to confuse me, don't they?Keep changing it? AFAIK they've changed it ONCE since 3.0 came out. It started off using APL in 3.0. One of the supplements, Forgotten Realms source book IIRC shifted to individual level, and EVERY source since has used individual level including EVERY 3.5 book I am familiar with.

Chronos

2007-11-19, 01:16 AM

Keep changing it? AFAIK they've changed it ONCE since 3.0 came out.It doesn't take much to confuse me.

Kimpire

2007-11-19, 02:05 AM

Out of curiosity, has anybody ever gone over the list of spells V doesn't have? That is to say, back when s/he was changed into a lizard, there were only three spells that s/he had that didn't have any somatic components... so has anyone made a list of all the spells - other than those three - that don't have somatic components, and therefore V doesn't have them?

Balgus

2007-11-19, 05:27 AM

Out of curiosity, has anybody ever gone over the list of spells V doesn't have? You can put sonic orbs (greater and lesser) down.. she has no sonic spells

Greg

2007-11-19, 08:34 AM

You can put sonic orbs (greater and lesser) down.. she has no sonic spells
He/She didn't actually prepare any sonic spells that day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html)

Fussy

2007-11-19, 10:17 AM

V probably only has the 1 powerword spell, as she hadn't come across the absurdity of one word taking up seven pages before.

Wrecan

2007-11-19, 11:59 AM

On Haley's entry, here's the reference for her Use Rope skill rank being 8+
Gracias!

Elan appears to have Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html).
That could be silent image for all we know, and we know he has that spell.

Fussy

2007-11-19, 12:22 PM

V probably has the feat Brew Potion, as she is aware of how much it costs to brew a potion of heroism.

Can't quite find the link yet...

Kreistor

2007-11-19, 12:29 PM

V probably has the feat Brew Potion, as she is aware of how much it costs to brew a potion of heroism.

Can't quite find the link yet...

PHB knowledge is player knowledge. Knowing the correct price to buy something is not evidence that the player knows how to make it.

Kurald Galain

2007-11-19, 12:35 PM

V probably has the feat Brew Potion, as she is aware of how much it costs to brew a potion of heroism.

Wouldn't that simply be a Knowledge: Arcana check?

Balgus

2007-11-19, 02:10 PM

Wouldn't that simply be a Knowledge: Arcana check?would it even be that complicated? I mean - I know how much a can of tuna at the supermarket should cost ... doesnt mean I know how to deepsea fish for tuna and have a canning factory... its just experience.... and having encountered it in the past

AKA_Bait

2007-11-19, 02:40 PM

I think you may need to bump V up to 15 at this point. Seems to me that V's Enhanced Scrying is probably 8th level since it's a newly researched spell and 'of greater potency' than any other existing spell either he/she or Durkon has cast (V would have access to Greater Scrying a seventh level spell, at least in scroll form).

Vargtass

2007-11-19, 03:17 PM

The enhanced scrying spell is of greater potency of any scrying spell that either V or Durkon has cast, not of greater potency of any spell they have cast.

Fussy

2007-11-19, 04:17 PM

PHB knowledge is player knowledge. Knowing the correct price to buy something is not evidence that the player knows how to make it.

It's not that she knows how much it costs, but how much it costs to make it (which is why she know they're not making a profit).

Balgus

2007-11-19, 06:03 PM

It's not that she knows how much it costs, but how much it costs to make it (which is why she know they're not making a profit).With a lil research, I can prolly get what is the variable costa nd Fixed overhead distributed among units sold to get total cost per unit...
here's a hypothetical breakdown for anyone who wants to see it
EXAMPLE - TunnCan.corp, a publicly traded corporation makes only tuna cans. Last year, their annual revenue was 70,000 gp, and sold 140,000 cans. (so revenue per can =0.5 gp or 5 sp or 50 cp)

Variable costs:
cans 900 gp
tuna 5000 gp
oils/preservatives 100 gp
Labor 1000 gp
TOTAL Variable Cost = 7000 gp (.05 gp or 5 cp per can)

Fixed overhead Costs:
Fishing boats 10,000 gp
SGA (selling, general admin expense) 5000 gp
Factory/ plant/ Equipment 5000 gp
Transportation/Delivery 1000 gp
TOTAL fixed overhead = 21000 gp (.15 gp or 15 cp per can)

TOTAL COST = 28,000 gp (.2 gp or 20 cp per can)

Siince they made 50cp per can, and cost 20cp per can, they are profiting 30cp per can.

ALL this information is readily available for any publicly traded company at SEC.gov.. so it just takes a little digging to get all the information you need.
Plus, any adventurer worth his nuggets will have a good idea of what is a good bargain and what is a ripoff. that transaction just shows that V knows a lot - but cannot persuade people worth a darn.. hence the low charisma.

Yeril

2007-11-19, 06:03 PM

.. Isn't Vaarsuvius a Sorcerer?

Wrecan

2007-11-19, 06:07 PM

.. Isn't Vaarsuvius a Sorcerer?

No. V is a Wizard. Either way, the rules for manufacturing potions is in the corebooks, so it's common knowledge, as far as OOTS is concerned.

Chrismith

2007-11-19, 06:57 PM

That could be silent image for all we know, and we know he has that spell.

Except that every time we've seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html) Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html) cast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html) an (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html), it's always translucent to the reader. Banjulhu (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html) is not -- it appears that Elan actually changed the color and shape of the fabric. And that's one of the textbook uses of Prestidigitation.

AKA_Bait

2007-11-19, 07:34 PM

The enhanced scrying spell is of greater potency of any scrying spell that either V or Durkon has cast, not of greater potency of any spell they have cast.

That's what I meant. It seems pretty reasonable to me that V would have gotten a scroll of greater scrying before inventing a new spell.

Except that every time we've seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html) Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html) cast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html) an (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html), it's always translucent to the reader. Banjulhu (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html) is not -- it appears that Elan actually changed the color and shape of the fabric. And that's one of the textbook uses of Prestidigitation.

Or we are just overthinking it and it's not translucent because it's funnier that way.

Kish

2007-11-19, 07:46 PM

.. Isn't Vaarsuvius a Sorcerer?

This just begs for an all-emoticons response. To wit: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

The Bushranger

2007-11-19, 09:48 PM

Wrecan

2007-11-20, 08:46 AM

Except that every time we've seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html) Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html) cast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html) an (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html), it's always translucent to the reader. Banjulhu (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html) is not -- it appears that Elan actually changed the color and shape of the fabric. And that's one of the textbook uses of Prestidigitation.

And when Eugene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html) casts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html) illusions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html), they are opaque. Illusions are opaque or translucent depending on context, and thus we cannot determine if Elan used Prestidigitation or Silent Image.

Edit: BTW, Elan's illusion of the female half-orc doesn't seem translucent at all.

Chrismith

2007-11-20, 09:29 AM

And when Eugene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html) casts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html) illusions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html), they are opaque. Illusions are opaque or translucent depending on context, and thus we cannot determine if Elan used Prestidigitation or Silent Image.

Edit: BTW, Elan's illusion of the female half-orc doesn't seem translucent at all.

I'll concede the point, but I'd like to point out that your first and third examples are also textbook uses of Prestidigitation (sketching in the air).

Regarding the female half-orc illusion, it's hard to see because there's nothing behind her, but compare her outline to Thog's. She's translucent, just like the others.

Greg

2007-11-20, 10:45 AM

Surely illusions are only transparent when Rich wishes us to recognise them as an illusion, and wants to make clear what they are. I would think they would look real to those being fooled

Chrismith

2007-11-20, 12:04 PM

Surely illusions are only transparent when Rich wishes us to recognise them as an illusion, and wants to make clear what they are. I would think they would look real to those being fooled

So you're saying that I failed my will save to disbelieve Elan's Banjhulu illusion? :smalltongue:

Chronos

2007-11-20, 03:43 PM

That could be silent image for all we know, and we know he has that spell.It can't be silent image. Silent image is a figment, not a glamer. Figments can cause nonexistant objects to appear, but they can't change the appearance of an existing object. For that you need a glamer. Frankly, I suspect that Prestidigitation is the only spell available to Elan which could produce that effect, and it's certainly the lowest-level one.

Wrecan

2007-11-20, 05:30 PM

Figments can cause nonexistant objects to appear, but they can't change the appearance of an existing object.
If the nonexistent object entirely swallows the existing object (like making an illusion of a fire hydrant on top of a diamond ring), you can.

Wrecan

2007-11-20, 05:31 PM

compare her outline to Thog's. She's translucent, just like the others.
Maybe it's my computer, but her outline looks just like Thog's. She's a lighter shade of green, but the outline is a solid black line.

Chronos

2007-11-20, 10:22 PM

The pretty orc girl is indeed translucent. In the last panel, you can see the floor line continuing through the bottom edge of her body.

If the nonexistent object entirely swallows the existing object (like making an illusion of a fire hydrant on top of a diamond ring), you can.Maybe, but that's not the case with Banthulhu: The Elder Puppet is the same size as normal. If Silent Image were able to produce that effect, it'd also be able to duplicate the effects of Disguise Self, which it can't.

Greg

2007-11-21, 03:09 AM

So you're saying that I failed my will save to disbelieve Elan's Banjhulu illusion? :smalltongue:
Possibly, but I was alluding to the difference between Elan and Eugene's illusions.

Yendor

2007-11-21, 03:55 AM

Eugene's illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html) of Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0403.html) is translucent. And his disguise as the Being of Pure Law and Good is opaque partly out of dramatic necessity.

And according to my colour picker, the (edit: half-orc) illusion's outline is a very dark grey, not the black used in "real" characters.

Paragon Badger

2007-11-21, 04:27 AM

Maybe it's just a glitch in the Giant's imaging program? :smallwink:

Why would Elan create an illusion to flirt with himself?
Why would Elan's illusion speak with he who possesses the black and red text?
Why would Elan's illusion exist before he didn't need it to flank?

...Why!?

Why not: Occum's Razor.

Kurald Galain

2007-11-21, 04:59 AM

Also, Eugene is a much higher level caster than Elan is. It's easy to imagine that, say, a 6th level illusion spell would not be translucent.

And, as has been pointed out above, a Minor Image cannot in fact turn the Banjo puppet into Banjulhu. Occam's Razor therefore suggests that Elan knows a cantrip (which isn't all that unlikely in the first place).

The Bushranger

2007-11-21, 07:47 AM

Wrecan

2007-11-21, 08:38 AM

Pkay. I concede the point. I will list Elan as knowing Prestidigitation based on the Banjulhu strip

RMS Oceanic

2007-11-23, 12:56 PM

Vaarsuvius knows Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html).

Also, Depending on how fly works, Durkon's strength is a minimum of either 8 (light), 12 (medium) or 16 (heavy), to carry Vaarsuvius' minimum weight (80-85 lbs, depending on gender). What level of load can a flier carry again?

Kurald Galain

2007-11-23, 01:23 PM

A heavy load.

RMS Oceanic

2007-11-23, 02:05 PM

Right, so Durkon's carrying Vaarsuvius + Full Plate Armor + Shield + Hammer = Minimum of 150lbs, requiring a minimum strength of 13.

Irbis

2007-11-23, 06:40 PM

That's what I meant. It seems pretty reasonable to me that V would have gotten a scroll of greater scrying before inventing a new spell.

Wouldn't it be Varsuuvius Greater Enchanced Scrying?

I think it's level 5th or 6th, between both Scryings, it just doesn't make sense otherwise.

PsyBlade

2007-11-23, 08:26 PM

V specifically called out the name of the spell, so no.

Wrecan

2007-11-23, 10:56 PM

I've added the fly and the revised estimate of Durkon's Strength

Wrecan

2007-11-23, 11:08 PM

All right. Calculating Durkon's Strength...
Full plate = 50
Heavy shield = 15
Warhammer = 5
Clerical vestments = 6 (he isn't wearing them)
Spyglass = 1
Vaarsuvius = 82 (minimum)
Spellbook = 3
Component pouch = 2
TOTAL = 164

This makes Durkon's minimum Strength 14, not 13. It would have to be 14 pounds lighter for it to be a 13 minimum, so even if we assume Durkon left his vestments and spyglass in his cabin and V has Eschew Materials (which V probably does not) and left the spellbook in the cabin, 14 is still the minimum Strength.

AKA_Bait

2007-11-24, 07:48 PM

I think it may be time to add Kazumi and Daigo. We know they are level six and a martial class.

Also, to harp on my V point, if those two have presumably gone up 5 levels since the Azure city battle it's not unreasonable to think that V has gone up 2. Espcially since my earlier point about scrying spells still stands. Just because V didn't name the spell V's Enhanced Greater Scrying doesn't mean that it is not higher or equal level to greater scrying and it's quite likley that V already tried the SRD scrying spells.

Wrecan

2007-11-24, 07:58 PM

V mentioned that s/he didn't get XP for most of their aquatic encounters, meaning it was too low EL to warrant XP for a 13th level adventurer. But no encounter is too low EL for a 5th level adventurer going on 6th. So it makes perfect sense that Daigo and Kazumi could raise several levels without V gaining any XP.

danneloftyr

2007-11-24, 08:01 PM

I also agree we need to add Kazumi and Daigo to the list of additional characters. While we do not have alot of information at this point they are obviously now important characters.

Kurald Galain

2007-11-24, 08:04 PM

I think it may be time to add Kazumi and Daigo. We know they are level six and a martial class.

Perhaps both are Samurai....

That would be appropriate, at any rate. I don't think we can really tell if they're samurai, or fighters, or warriors.

Note that in the Azure City battle, several of the troops were level-5 already.

Note also that level 1 to level 6 equals 15000 XP, whereas level 13 to level 15 equals 27000 XP.

And note also that V's Enhanced Scrying does a few things that the PHB spell does not.

Mr.Bookworm

2007-11-24, 08:08 PM

As I've said over in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64434) thread, I think Kasumi and Daigo are both Warrior 4/Fighter 2.

That would give them each a CR of 5, and they've both been shown as beaten up after fighting a Scrag (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm#scrag), which also has a CR of 5.

They were probably Warrior 4 as low-level grunts, but they probably picked up a level of Fighter during the 4 month time skip, and another just now.

EDIT: And I doubt they're Samurai, because as far as I've seen, Rich sticks to OGL/SRD material, as well as made up stuff. And the Samurai is from the Complete Warrior.

Kurald Galain

2007-11-24, 08:18 PM

Wait. On second thought, they likely aren't samurai. Not because "Rich wouldn't use that class" (viz. the long discussion between Roy, Elan and Miko about why she doesn't have that class) but because if they were, they would be nobility of some sort - and Kubota has said that they're not.

Hence they're fighters, or warriors. Or both. I don't think ranger/paladin/barbarian fits them very well.