3.P - Unusual monsters to prep for

[MaxiDuRaritry]

From level 1 on, what kinds of monsters should you have backup plans to deal with, just in case, and how would you suggest dealing with such things that are out of the ordinary and would be difficult to overcome without preparation?

For instance, having a torch available to light up for swarms at or above level 1 would be a good idea, since it's impossible to damage them without AoEs.

Getting a +1 weapon (at least a dagger) is a must-have for incorporeals at level 3, although it's possible to face one earlier, since it's possible you could face higher CR'd creatures.

Having some way to deal with a rust monster (a wooden club and shield, and some way to protect your metal armor) at level 3 or before is pretty necessary.

...and so on.

[edit] Took out any theoretical group stuff, since it's apparently confusing people away from what the thread is actually about.

[Nifft]

1 - Ask to see the other PCs (mechanically, their builds) so you can build to complement their strengths & weaknesses.

2 - Ask the players what kind of fights have been difficult or impossible.

3 - From step 1, you know the general optimization competence of the players. From step 2, you know the relative difficulty of the DM for these players.

4 - With the comparison from step 3, you can figure out how much to optimize, and what to cover for them.

5 - Buy the DM a nice bottle of scotch.

6 - Profit.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

1 - Ask to see the other PCs (mechanically, their builds) so you can build to complement their strengths & weaknesses.

2 - Ask the players what kind of fights have been difficult or impossible.

3 - From step 1, you know the general optimization competence of the players. From step 2, you know the relative difficulty of the DM for these players.

4 - With the comparison from step 3, you can figure out how much to optimize, and what to cover for them.

5 - Buy the DM a nice bottle of scotch.

6 - Profit.
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[Nifft]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I'm showing you how to figure out some of the important information which was described as missing in the OP.

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[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm showing you how to figure out some of the important information which was described as missing in the OP.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}I asked about what kinds of unusual things you should prepare for in a game (where, for instance, you don't have enough information about how things run, but it's not limited to that; that was mostly just an example why you wouldn't know what you'd be up against),{Scrubbed}

[Gavinfoxx]

Essentially, most of the really problematic stuff, a cleric can handle (invisibility, flying creatures, incorporeal creatures, burrowing creatures, ability drain, obtaining information to advance the plot, etc.). In a new group like that, I'd bring a high-op cleric that doesn't seem to be so crazy high-op (maybe just DMM: Quicken?), if possible, and sandbag hard for the first few fights. Maybe make him old and act kind of senile. Then if the party REALLY REALLY needs it, you can totally blow an overly-hard encounter out of the water, and you describe it as s/he became temporarily lucid (or they had a PTSD flashback and started fighting as hard as he could or something).

[Asmotherion]

I asked about what kinds of unusual things you should prepare for in a game (where, for instance, you don't have enough information about how things run, but it's not limited to that; that was mostly just an example why you wouldn't know what you'd be up against), {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

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If going with no further information I suggest Cleric or Druid, as you can essentially choose from your entire spell list every single day. And it's hard to find a Cleric that's not usefull.

If you play at level 1-3, you'll probably face humanoids (probably commoners) or any of : Kobolts, Goblinoids, Skeletons, Zombies, as minions to 1-2 more buffed up Creatures or Humanoids (Traditionally a Wizard and it's Pet Bruiser, but DMs of today tend to break stereotypes rather than embracing them).

Oh, and if a DM PC is introduced or like, "subtly" forced on you (As a so-called important NPC, it's a major red flag. If said DM PC is outperforming the group, seccond red flag. If you try to leave said NPC behind but he magically is once again forced uppon the group, get as far as possible from the group.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

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[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make a spellcaster that doesn't use a book, because you can't count on finding spells during play. Ideally go with a Human Sorcerer or Oracle, that way you have the Cha to do party face encounters if the DM likes heavy RP, and your favored class bonus is more spells. Use your buckets of spells known to be able to buff the party, debuff enemies, handle those situations you named, and handle certain noncombat encounters that may be important to overcome. If you end up being too powerful, just ease off (cast fewer spells, or cast less optimally) until everyone is having fun again.

[Edit] Most of that was directed at the pre-edit OP.

[Asmotherion]

Scrub the post, scrub the quote

Scrub a dub dub

[Psyren]

- Ranged options are necessary to help deal with flying creatures before you can regularly fly yourself

- Everyone should have a light slashing or piercing weapon in case they get swallowed

- Those who can't use healing wands should have potions as they require no check to use and can be poured down someone else's throat if they get downed

[Mike Miller]

A good amount has been said, but generally having as many choices as possible will keep you prepared. Have melee and ranged, as many damage types as possible, and ghost touch. Have ways to remove status ailments and stat damage/drain.

[Tvtyrant]

Illusions to beat mindless creatures (we are now a wall.)

Int damage to beat animals.

Dex damage to beat big things.

Grapple checks scale by size as well as strength so you need a way out of grapples early on (looking at you crocodiles and bears.)

Almost nothing has balance skills so grease or ballbearings are good forever.

There is a ghost-touch granting alchemical item for early levels. It is better then a magic item and since incorporeal undead are rarely the focus of a campaign keeping one on you but not two is wise.

Astral Caravan and some cheap 1 use Astral Traveler items are the easiest way to save a city from an impending disaster. The only limit on occupants is how many people you can afford to give AT items to, and you can remove everyone from the path of the Elder Evil or Volcano.

Slaying Arrows can affect Contructs and Undead, whose lack of a con score makes this nearly always lethal.

All Rogues should have a tower shield. If you use it for total cover you are automatically hidden, obviating the need for hide in plain sight at level 1-2.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

All Rogues should have a tower shield. If you use it for total cover you are automatically hidden, obviating the need for hide in plain sight at level 1-2.

Strongly disagree - your attended items are part of yourself, and you can't hide behind yourself. They can see the shield, they know you're there and you're not hidden. Plus lack of proficiency takes the armor check penalty to initiative and attack rolls, as well as stealth checks and a bunch of other rolls.

[Tvtyrant]

Strongly disagree - your attended items are part of yourself, and you can't hide behind yourself. They can see the shield, they know you're there and you're not hidden. Plus lack of proficiency takes the armor check penalty to initiative and attack rolls, as well as stealth checks and a bunch of other rolls.

It gives you Total Cover, "You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway."

Special
"If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.

A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed."

RAW it automatically hides you. We can run circles around it, but the game is old enough I doubt anyone's mind is going to be changed so I'm not going to.

[Warmjenkins]

It gives you Total Cover, "You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway."

Special
"If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.

A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed."

RAW it automatically hides you. We can run circles around it, but the game is old enough I doubt anyone's mind is going to be changed so I'm not going to.

Guess you didn't see the word usually there huh?

[Tvtyrant]

Guess you didn't see the word usually there huh?

"See Special" is literally bracketed there to spell out where there are exceptions. This is not an exception listed. "(but not always; see Special, below)"

As I said, I'm not getting into a multi-page discussion of one of the original RAW loopholes. Especially as it would derail this thread. If you don't like that example feel free to pick from the others I listed.

[Warmjenkins]

"See Special" is literally bracketed there to spell out where there are exceptions. This is not an exception listed. "(but not always; see Special, below)"

As I said, I'm not getting into a multi-page discussion of one of the original RAW loopholes. Especially as it would derail this thread. If you don't like that example feel free to pick from the others I listed.

Except that see special is clearly referring to situations where cover is not needed to make hide checks as not one of the examples even mentions cover at all let alone instances where full cover would still need a hide check.

But yes I agree that discussing it here is likely pointless and unnecessary. Especially since it is useless because no half decent dm would allow it anyway and even if you found one who did the massive penalty to move silently will make any hide check completely useless.

[Elkad]

I'm used to old-school 1e dungeon crawls of doom*, so I bring EVERYTHING. *and probably you fell through a portal to a Ravenloft demi-plane, so you can't even retreat

Stuff you pick up immediately (combat items), especially if you are weapon-waving type. Oil. Torches. Club (rust monsters, and you can throw it in a pinch). Sling (cheap, and defeats Wind Wall). Bow (more expensive, and don't sell the sling). Morningstar, in Cold Iron (covers pierce, blunt, and cold iron for a mere 16gp - your goto weapon for skeletons, demons, and fey). Silver weapon. Oil of Magic Weapon (incorporeals) - a few magic arrows works as well. Caltrops. Iron Spikes. Sun Rods (everburning torches and/or ioun torches are silly as primary lights when sun rods are cheap enough to throw ahead of you or down holes, and work better to boot).

[Tvtyrant]

I'm used to old-school 1e dungeon crawls of doom*, so I bring EVERYTHING. *and probably you fell through a portal to a Ravenloft demi-plane, so you can't even retreat

Stuff you pick up immediately (combat items), especially if you are weapon-waving type. Oil. Torches. Club (rust monsters, and you can throw it in a pinch). Sling (cheap, and defeats Wind Wall). Bow (more expensive, and don't sell the sling). Morningstar, in Cold Iron (covers pierce, blunt, and cold iron for a mere 16gp - your goto weapon for skeletons, demons, and fey). Silver weapon. Oil of Magic Weapon (incorporeals) - a few magic arrows works as well. Caltrops. Iron Spikes. Sun Rods (everburning torches and/or ioun torches are silly as primary lights when sun rods are cheap enough to throw ahead of you or down holes, and work better to boot).

I always wanted to play a Shax/Bunko type hoarder. "We might need his knucklebones one day, you don't know!" It's how I play Skyrim, but I never got to play that character in 3.5.

[Kurald Galain]

For instance, having a torch available to light up for swarms at or above level 1 would be a good idea, since it's impossible to damage them without AoEs.
I would go with alchemist fire, but many classes have class options to deal with this. And note that swarms of tiny creatures (i.e. most of them, at low level) still take weapon damage.


Getting a +1 weapon (at least a dagger) is a must-have for incorporeals at level 3
A +1 dagger is pretty expensive at that level, especially if you're not using daggers. An easier way of doing this is an oil of Bless Weapon, or a wand of Magic Missile (assuming you can use it).


Having some way to deal with a rust monster (a wooden club and shield, and some way to protect your metal armor) at level 3
However, an armor or shield isn't that expensive by level 3. If a rust monster ate it, I'd buy a new one. Just don't draw metal weapons against 'rusty. The aforementioned wand of MM could also help here.

Not-so-unusual but often forgotten is enemy archers or artillery; carry a smokestick or scroll of Obscuring Mist. Another is aquatic enemies; a potion of Air Bubble is a good idea, and cheap. Potions or scrolls of Hide From Undead and Hide From Animals are also cheap and can at least save your hide. HTH.

[Elkad]

A +1 dagger is pretty expensive at that level, especially if you're not using daggers. An easier way of doing this is an oil of Bless Weapon, or a wand of Magic Missile (assuming you can use it).

Oil of Magic Weapon is even cheaper (50gp), than Bless Weapon (100gp). Doesn't bypass DR/Good, but does give an actual bonus on to-hit and damage.

[Tvtyrant]

Ghosttouch Shellac is 150GP and gives 100% hit against incorporeal for hours, and you can use it on 100sq ft per dose (so multiple uses.)

[Vizzerdrix]

Wine can get you unstuck from a mimic, so always keep a bottle handy.

Shapesand is better than some class features, and is only 34ish gp if you make your own.

[Tvtyrant]

Wine can get you unstuck from a mimic, so always keep a bottle handy.

Shapesand is better than some class features, and is only 34ish gp if you make your own.

All of the Shape items are crazy good. Chaos Flasks are, Shape Sand, and Marvelous Pigments are good enough that an Alchemist class that just got an ascending amount of them would probably be tier 1-2.

[Ashiel]

From level 1 on, what kinds of monsters should you have backup plans to deal with, just in case, and how would you suggest dealing with such things that are out of the ordinary and would be difficult to overcome without preparation?

For instance, having a torch available to light up for swarms at or above level 1 would be a good idea, since it's impossible to damage them without AoEs.

Getting a +1 weapon (at least a dagger) is a must-have for incorporeals at level 3, although it's possible to face one earlier, since it's possible you could face higher CR'd creatures.

Having some way to deal with a rust monster (a wooden club and shield, and some way to protect your metal armor) at level 3 or before is pretty necessary.

...and so on.

[edit] Took out any theoretical group stuff, since it's apparently confusing people away from what the thread is actually about.
Listing individual monsters takes too long, but I think I can help just the same.

Golf Bag: Carry several different types of weapons and ammo. Slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, etc. During most fights you can free-action drop your unneeded supplies to reduce your encumbrance and pick your bags, packs, golfbags, and so on back up after the fight.
Oil of Magic/Bless Weapon/Shillelagh: 10 rounds of magical weaponry that can be applied to any weapon on an as-needed basis. Shillelagh effectively turns any stick into a +1 one-handed greatsword. Bless weapon also makes your attacks good-aligned and auto-confirm crits vs evil foes. At 50 gp a pop, it's far more practical to just take a few masterwork weapons and a gaggle of oils than it is trying to get every weapon you have to +1. Also makes you less reliant on individual weapons (making sundering, disarming, stealing, or other attacks less appealing against you). All three poo-poo all over DR/magic and incorporeality. Cheap enough to buy in a Thorpe.
Silver/Cold Iron: Actually quite inexpensive when dealing with mundane weaponry. Takes care of most DRs. Using magic weapon or similar on cold iron is much more practical than buying a +1 cold iron weapon. Ammunition is especially cheap.
Potion of Protection from Evil: Outright turns encounters with things like succubi into a joke, good for vampires and whatever else ails you too. Protects against charm and compulsion effects with a decent duration. Also cheap at 50 gp a pop and available in Thorpes.
Potion of Lesser Restoration / Resist Energy: 50 gp a pop because of Paladins and Rangers. Available in thorpes. Makes recovering from some ability damage or dealing with alchemist fire spam manageable. Resist energy also has a long-ish duration.
Some Iron/Steel Coins: Rust monsters prefer ferrous metals, iron specifically. A single pound of iron is very cheap, and there are 50 coins to a pound. Carry some iron coins and throw the rust-mutt a bone and keep walking. Also has additional uses such as creating distractions by slingshotting them down hallways, dropping them down pits to hear a ring, jamming into gears, or whatever else suits your fancy.
Antitoxin: Mundane alchemical item that gives +5 to saves vs poisons for an hour. Useful forever since it stacks with pretty much everything. Makes encounters with things like giant spiders much more palatable.
Lamp Oil: Can be poured on the ground and lit. Is technically an AoE albeit a small one, dealing 1d3 fire damage for 2 rounds. A very good (and cheap) counter to low level swarms that cannot be hurt by weapons (such as a spider swarm). Most animals and insects shouldn't approach an open fire but if they do, they'll take 1d3 * 1.5 per square of burning oil they happen to move through, which can be all you need to take out a low level swarm before it takes you out.
Smokestick: Cheap alchemical item that provides concealment where you drop it. Can reduce a 20th level rogue to a sniveling joke, or simply block a creature's gaze attacks because things beyond 5 ft. have total concealment.


With the above, all of which can be casually purchased by a party well before 2nd level, you are now ready to fight: incorporeal foes, foes with DR/slashing, DR/piercing, DR/bludgeoning, DR/good, DR/silver, DR/cold-iron, DR/magic, poisons, swarms, charms and compulsions, evil things, metal-eating things, gaze-attacking things, ability damage, energy damage, etc. Congratulations, you're now casually ready to be an adventurer.