Lyric Thaumaturge for nonbards?

[Calimmacil]

I started out as a Beguiler, but my DM and party didn't know what to do with me. To help them out, I began roleplaying as a bard (they did better with understanding that party role, and I enjoyed it too).

To add bardic music, I've been prestige classing in Heartfire Fanner (I added Perform as a class skill using the Skill Prodigy feat from KoK). So far, this has been a lot of fun. But I'd like to find ways to add more bardic music per day, especially since Heartfire Fanner gives some great uses for it.

Looking around, I've thought Paragnostic Apostle might work. Or Virtuoso. At first read, it looks to me like Lyric Thaumaturge may work better.

But reading it more closely, it's clear the Lyric Thaumaturge PrC was only written for players who started out as bards.

For Spellcasting, at each level of Lyric Thaumaturge you gain a level of bard spellcasting. What if you don't have any bardic spellcasting already? Can you add to a different class, or only bard? And how would that mesh with my Beguiler spellcasting?

Bonus Spell feature also is written specifically for bardic spellcasting: "Your knowledge of magic grants you the ability to cast more spells than the average bard. At 1st level, you gain one additional 1st-level and 2nd-level bard spell slot."

BtW, I have a DM who literally says about build discussion that he doesn't want us to talk to him about our character builds. He says they always upset him, and he would rather us ask our fellow players, because they are the ones who will have to play with us. I'd like to have a good idea of how to interpret this before I present it to my fellow players.

Thanks!

[Troacctid]

It would grant you bard spells per day (but not spells known). Your beguiler casting would not be advanced.

[Thurbane]

If your DM allows it, you could dip Prestige Bard, and then seen if he'll allow LT advance you casting that way. A bit questionable though.

[Endarire]

Also talk with your GM about changing your character to Bard or letting you into the relevant PrCs anyway for roleplay reasons.

[crankykobold]

BtW, I have a DM who literally says about build discussion that he doesn't want us to talk to him about our character builds. He says they always upset him, and he would rather us ask our fellow players, because they are the ones who will have to play with us. I'd like to have a good idea of how to interpret this before I present it to my fellow players.

Thanks!
This makes zero sense to me. Does he want to be surprised by player capabilities? How do player builds upset him? What if you do something with your character and he doesn't want to allow that in his world? Shouldn't that come out before play?

As for your actual question. If you and your group would be happier with a Bard then your DM should just let you reroll as Bard.

[Ruethgar]

A Legendary Lute grants an effective bard level +5 for Bardic Music, a Masterwork one is a +1 if the Master class isn’t available. Also pretty sure you can trade out bardic music abilities for feats related to bardic music. Need to find the location for that rule, but could potentially nix countersong, fascination and the like if you wanted to try and get more Extra Music.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Calimmacil
I started out as a Beguiler, but my DM and party didn't know what to do with me. To help them out, I began roleplaying as a bard (they did better with understanding that party role, and I enjoyed it too).

To add bardic music, I've been prestige classing in Heartfire Fanner (I added Perform as a class skill using the Skill Prodigy feat from KoK).

Out of curiosity, would you be willing to post your full build?

[Rebel7284]

I will second that those are some weird dynamics. They don't know how to deal with a character that doesn't fit into their specific preconceived box? Refusing to know your build? Anyway, yes, Lyric Thaumaturge was written specifically with Bards in mind, unlike most other prestige classes that advance Arcane casting or even just Casting.

The simplest answer is to just take the Extra Music feat. Complete Adventurer, p. 109

There are also a number of prestige classes that would advance bardic music and work with beguiler casting. Virtuoso Complete Adventurer, p. 89 comes to mind, but I am sure there are others.

Also, if your DM categorically refuses to look at your build, is there anything preventing you from modifying Lyric Thaumaturge to work with beguiler? Definitely better to run that past the other players first to make sure everyone is on the same page (even if this table seems to REALLY be trying to avoid being on the same page :smallconfused:)

[Calimmacil]

Thanks for the replies.

Hmm. Yes, Virtuoso is starting to look better. And I had considered Prestige Bard, but I think the loss of spellcasting progression is what turned me off on it. I'll talk to my group about whether they would be OK with adapting Lyric Thaumaturge. That might end up being an easy solution. Adaptation isn't unheard of.

Yes, I agree with the comments that not talking to your DM about your build is a weird dynamic. For example, I had to go to other players on our server to find out a ruling on whether rainbow servant would have full spellcasting progression or not (they said text trumps table, so we are going with that). I was going to go Beguiler 6 / Rainbow Servant 10, but then veered off in the bardic direction...and I feel like I like this better.

I can get answers from our DM for small questions though, like whether a feat from Kingdoms of Kalamar would be allowed. He suggested Skill Knowledge instead, but since I was also looking to add Intimidate, he agreed. I think it's stressful to him to talk builds, so I try to follow his preference for not discussing them. He's actually very nice about most things. And as you'll see from my sheet, I have way more wealth than I should have at this level, so I'm not complaining.

Also, since it was requested: Here's my build if it would be helpful.
We roll our stats with the "roll 4, drop 1" method for each score, but roll 7 scores. Then we drop the 2 lowest and replace with a single 18.

Base stats: 7 8 12 14 16 16 17, replace 7 & 8 w/ an 18 (server rule)

Base: grey elf, Half-fey template

1 Beguiler 1
Flaws: Love of Nature, Wild
Feats: Noble Born, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Nymph's Kiss
2 Beguiler 2
3 Beguiler 3
Feat: Negotiator
4 Beguiler 4
Ability: Int +1
5 Beguiler 5
6 Beguiler 6
Feat: Skill Prodigy
7 Rainbow Servant 1
8 Rainbow Servant 2
Ability: Int +1
9 Heartfire Fanner 1
Feat: Skill Focus: Perform
10 Heartfire Fanner 2

(yes, I know I technically shouldn't have been able to go into Heartfire Fanner until after I'd gotten the Skill Focus: Perform feat, but they let me)

We kind of frown on people rerolling at our "table". The house rule is, if you do, you start at average party level minus 2. So I would lose 3 levels at this point by doing that, because I'm 1 level above party average. Usually no retraining of feats or levels etc. either. The explanation given is that it would be a slap in the face to what roleplay you've already done as a character if you go back and undo something.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Stormsinger gives you an additional use of Bardic Music each level, fully progresses casting, and gives class features at every single level (including 6 additional ways of using Bardic Music).

Sublime Chord also gives an extra use of BM each level. It doesn't progress casting, but is itself a fast-progression casting class, giving you up to 9th level spells from the Bard and Sorcerer lists.