Surprise attacks

[Dmdork]

The rules talk about using stealth for surprise. Was it intended for the doppleganger to use deception for surprise?

Also, suppose an enemy wants to attack a party member in a crowd of people. He tries to blend in with the crowd before striking. DM decides if Conditions are right. Would you use stealth or deception for this? Or maybe give the char a choice?

[Zhorn]

for the second question:
If you take Charisma as being 'the force of personality' stat, then Stealth(Dex) would be your skill pick for that, as in this scenario it is attempting to get close while not being noticed.

If it was a case of the person having been spotted and trying to approach the target giving a visible pretence of friendly intent, then that could be a case of Deception(Cha) as that is utilising an understanding of social form and presentation with the intent of being read a certain way.

[OldTrees1]

Hiding in a crowd? Which way are they hiding?
Are they trying to be unseen? Dexterity (Stealth)
Are they trying to be unnoticed? Charisma (Stealth)
Are they trying to be noticed but dismissed as a non threat? Charisma (Deception)
Are they trying to appear like a disarmed threat despite a palmed blade? Dexterity (Sleight of Hand)
Are they trying to ...

[firelistener]

Doppelgangers actually polymorph into their other forms. The Polymorph spell gives no indication of a check that can be made to determine the polymorphed doppelganger is actually a doppelganger. True Sight is the only thing that lets someone determine that the doppelganger is shapeshifted. So unless the doppelganger is acting strangely, the party should have zero indication that whoever/whatever they're seeing is actually a doppelganger.

A good check I might allow though would be passive perception to notice something off about the doppelganger. Maybe they notice the doppelganger is walking with a different gait or wearing something strange. I'd only use the doppelganger's deception skill if it was actually talking to the party and lying to them, allowing an insight check against it if a player expresses suspicion.

Keep in mind that doppelgangers spend a lot of time studying their targets and typically kill and replace them. So it should be very difficult for the party to realize someone is a doppelganger until actually conflict arises. With that in mind, I'd probably almost always make the party surprised the first round when attacked by one unless they already know it's a doppelganger or are otherwise suspecting sudden violence.

[Throne12]

If you are trying to be unseen it's a stealth (dex) check. Also note you dont change your equipment or anything your wearing and Adventures were equipment and clothes that stand out from the common rabble.

[Democratus]

If they are supposed to look like just anyone in the crowd no roll is needed. They just attack and get surprise.

[Mjolnirbear]

Surprise uses Stealth in part because it is contested by Perception. This allows both parties to contest and strive, and both parties have a chance to gain advantage. However, all skill checks are in reality Ability Checks, in this case Dexterity vs Wisdom, and they get to add their proficiency modifiers because stealth and perception are relevant skills.

So it's perfectly reasonable for a doppleganger or other creature to try to trick the players, and the party tries to determine if there is a threat.

First step: determine the ability. *How* the task is done is the key difference here. The popular example is using Strength instead of Charisma to intimidate someone. Ask the player how they're doing something.

So the attacker is trying to hide their intentions. It could be Dexterity, as they use the crowd to block line of sight. It could be Charisma, as they move and act like other people to hide their intentions. It could be Intelligence, as they use their knowledge of today's Holiday schedule and the crowd's habits to determine the most crowded location and thus the best place to escape notice.

The key part is the player says something like "I want to use the crowd" and you ask "How? If you're successful, what does success look like?"

Next, determine if proficiency applies. Typically, this is the player asking "Can I use X for this?" And your response could be "Tell me how that works" or "convince me". It's unlikely that Nature applies, but if they make a good case, then you should allow it.

People are stuck in thinking it's all about skills. Further, they're stuck thinking that Persuasion is always a Charisma check, because that's how everyone does it and because that's how it's listed on every. single. character. sheet.

Imagine, instead, skills were listed like tools, which is typically "Thieves' tools, stonemason's tools, lute, flute, climbing kit". If you added to that list "Perception, arcana, intimidation, insight" then fewer people would assume Perception Must Always Be Wisdom. (It would also give more space on the character sheet).

So in Uncle Steve's Alternative Sneak CheckTM, the player could use Intelligence or Charisma to try to hide from the evil goblin scout, and use Deception or Sneak or whatever is logical depending on how they describe themselves Doing The Thing. Then the evil goblin scout has a chance to realize what's happening, because Surprise should be determined via a contested check just to make sure we don't break stuff.

Player: I want to sneak up on the goblin. I watch the crowd, analyzing the movements for something I can use.
DM: Give me an Intelligence check
Player: Can I add Insight? If I find a brawl about to start that would be a perfect distraction.
DM: Sure, go ahead (rolls a standard Wisdom (Perception) check for the goblin.
Player rolls: A 13.
DM: You notice up ahead that a wagon's axle has broken, holding up traffic. It looks like a fight is about to break out, and the goblin is watching, annoyed. If you attack now, he'll be Surprised on the first round. If you wait for your party to catch up, you might miss your chance...


The advantage to this is player freedom. If they want to be the analytical wizard who applies brains to all the situations, they can. Or the cleric who always sees to the heart of the matter. Or the fighter who knows how to apply his strength.

The disadvantage, of course, is that this SUCKS for Roll20, because skill rolls are easy to use and "Intelligence: Insight" rolls are more complicated. Also, it takes time to train your players that skills aren't just a button to press but an option to roleplay. But "Players always choosing their best stat and best skill" isn't one of the disadvantages; as long as they come up with a good argument, there's no reason to say no. And in any endeavour IRL, people play to their strengths if they can, why should D&D be different?

[Tanarii]

The rules talk about using stealth for surprise. Was it intended for the doppleganger to use deception for surprise?Questionable. The rule states:
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side.

Some folks interpret the first statement is to be taken as a stand-alone statement. The DM determines. How they determine is their choice. Examples of how then follow.

Unfortunately for that interpretation, it doesn't really follow. The way it's worded, it's a predatory remark that the DM makes the determination. Followed by a rule of exactly how they make that determination. Not an example, but the rule. Who, then how.

Of course, the DM can modify the rules as they see fit, unless for some reason they shouldn't be. You might get someone upset if you summarily declared the PC was surprised, for example.


Also, suppose an enemy wants to attack a party member in a crowd of people. He tries to blend in with the crowd before striking. DM decides if Conditions are right. Would you use stealth or deception for this? Or maybe give the char a choice?
Personally that still sounds like Dexterity (Stealth) to me. But I can see a good argument for Charisma (Stealth). Stealth is still the attempting to be unnoticed skill, regardless of which ability score you're using.

Now if you were actively pretending to be someone else, then Deception would be appropriate. So Charisma (Deception). But in that case, it's probably being opposed by Wisdom (Intuition) instead.

I'm not sure what Dexterity (Deception) would look like but I'm sure someone can make a case. :smallamused:

[Xetheral]

I'm not sure what Dexterity (Deception) would look like but I'm sure someone can make a case. :smallamused:

That's for successfully impersonating another masseuse's style.

[Asisreo1]

Questionable. The rule states:
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side.

Some folks interpret the first statement is to be taken as a stand-alone statement. The DM determines. How they determine is their choice. Examples of how then follow.

Unfortunately for that interpretation, it doesn't really follow. The way it's worded, it's a predatory remark that the DM makes the determination. Followed by a rule of exactly how they make that determination. Not an example, but the rule. Who, then how.

Isn't the third sentence in relation to the second, about noticing each other? This is indeed related to surprise, as I'll demonstrate shortly, but it isn't saying that surprise must be determined using stealth vs perception.

To be more clear, a target is surprised when they do not notice a threat. They may notice the wandering kind old man looking for tea leaves, but they don't notice the poisoned dagger he has behind his back. Adjudicating these things is the sole job of the DM, as they may rule that it would be a sleight of hand vs perception or deception vs insight. Either way, those with a passive Skill lower than the skill roll of the opposition is surprised.

[Cry Havoc]

If (in your judgement as DM, via successful Stealth or Deception checks or whatnot) a combat encounter starts with the PCs unaware of the enemy threat then the PCs should start the encounter surprised on Round 1.

Whether that's via a creature sneaking up on them unware (via Stealth), or a doppleganger in the form of a trusted friend whom has infiltrated the party (via Deception).

That's how I run it, and a pretty reasonable interpretation of the rules as written, and as intended.

[Cry Havoc]

The disadvantage, of course, is that this SUCKS for Roll20, because skill rolls are easy to use and "Intelligence: Insight" rolls are more complicated.

Passive Insight scores are a thing.