Fiendish Codex- devils killing LE clients, isn't that foolish?

[Conradine]

I was thinking...
isn't extremely foolish that devil's habit of killing those who make Faustian Pacts with them in order to "prevent them to atone"? It would be impossible to keep that a secret for long and it would dramatically reduce the amount of people who would risk a deal with a devil.

[magicalmagicman]

I was thinking...
isn't extremely foolish that devil's habit of killing those who make Faustian Pacts with them in order to "prevent them to atone"? It would be impossible to keep that a secret for long and it would dramatically reduce the amount of people who would risk a deal with a devil.

The people who make deals with devils aren't repeat customers or people who expect a long term repeating business relationship with the devils.

The people who make deals with devils are people who think they can outsmart devils. Best them at their own game. Because they think they're so much smarter than devils.

So it makes little difference to them whether devils have killed foolish lesser weaker wizards than themselves.

[Conradine]

Actually, the example described in the Fiendish Codex introduction - Egil the farmer - is a commoner, a normal person seduced into killing his relatives for land and property, and then killed by the same devil in a simulated accident.

[magicalmagicman]

Actually, the example described in the Fiendish Codex introduction - Egil the farmer - is a commoner, a normal person seduced into killing his relatives for land and property, and then killed by the same devil in a simulated accident.

Seduced. Meaning the devil approached him and not vice versa right? A good seducer can make their victim ignore all known risks. A person susceptible to getting seduced by devils' promise of whatever isn't gonna become un-seduce-able because he heard a different devil worshipper got killed somehow.

[Nifft]

I was thinking...
isn't extremely foolish that devil's habit of killing those who make Faustian Pacts with them in order to "prevent them to atone"? It would be impossible to keep that a secret for long and it would dramatically reduce the amount of people who would risk a deal with a devil.

I mean, the whole "eternal damnation" thing is a better-known and much bigger risk than just some momentary death, yet people apparently take that risk.

People are not rational actors.

[Zarrgon]

It is not foolish at all.

Well, everyone of any intelligence knows the danger of making a deal with a devil. This is taught to all people not to long after "fire is hot" is taught. And anyone that has made it to adulthood has heard at least one devil deal story...that likely did not have a good ending.

So there will never be a shortage of people willing to take a devils deal....

[TheCount]

its perfectly reasonable.
The devils provide thier part upfront, and all they ask is your soul..... wich you are still using to live, as they cant just take it and leave you alive without it.
iirc only Orcus, a demon lord can take your soul and let you roam the material plane still.

[redking]

No. Its not foolish at all!

The mortals that sold their souls know that their souls are CONSIGNED TO HELL. As they reach old age, they will attempt to atone for what they did. The devils cannot allow that to happen.

[Blackhawk748]

Actually, the example described in the Fiendish Codex introduction - Egil the farmer - is a commoner, a normal person seduced into killing his relatives for land and property, and then killed by the same devil in a simulated accident.

The answer is right there, a simulated accident. A bucket fell out of the loft and cracked his head and he died. Stuff happens.

Definitely not an overly complicated scheme to kill him without anyone noticing. Nope.

[CIDE]

To me, the knowledge of this particular bit of lore is only going to be reserved for people that probably don't even need to make such a deal. The type of person that could likely survive any attempt on their life anyway. Someone who, realistically, isn't likely to repent anyway. A high level caster, maybe BBEG type of character. Most other examples are lower leveled people, NPC's, commoners, etc. They aren't going to hear these rumors. They're going to "accidentally" find a book at the local library or hear whisper of a shady guy making deals in a back alleyway as well as a few rumors of locals getting amazing luck recently.

[Zarrgon]

To me, the knowledge of this particular bit of lore is only going to be reserved for people that probably don't even need to make such a deal. The type of person that could likely survive any attempt on their life anyway. Someone who, realistically, isn't likely to repent anyway. A high level caster, maybe BBEG type of character. Most other examples are lower leveled people, NPC's, commoners, etc. They aren't going to hear these rumors. They're going to "accidentally" find a book at the local library or hear whisper of a shady guy making deals in a back alleyway as well as a few rumors of locals getting amazing luck recently.


This is not true though. Even the lowest level dirt poor dirt farming commoner knows "don't make any deals with a devil" It really falls under the common sense that everyone knows.

It's not that people are culeless when they make a deal with a devil: it is that they choose to do it.

[Conradine]

In your opinion it would be possible to make a contract that explicitly forbids and prevents the mortal from atoning?

[Asmotherion]

The people who make deals with devils aren't repeat customers or people who expect a long term repeating business relationship with the devils.

The people who make deals with devils are people who think they can outsmart devils. Best them at their own game. Because they think they're so much smarter than devils.

So it makes little difference to them whether devils have killed foolish lesser weaker wizards than themselves.

Nah, the vast majority are people who figure "With the life I live, I'm not going to a respectable Afterlive either way, so I can at least try and get into the 9 Hells with a favorable deal... maybe skip the lemure phase?" unaware that this doesn't stand in hell.

The trope of tricking the devil is less of a standard contract, and more of a PC trope.

I generally RP Devils as holding to the contract, and only trying to kill the "customer" if he tries to outsmart them. Some may take advantage of legal loopholes to use the character as a pawn, or may kill a customer who has not bargained for a specific time the moment their wish is granted, as A) It's a legal interpretation of the rules of the contract and B) The person would be so insignificant that they would not be usefull as a minion.

A leveled character is usually significant enough to let alive, as they might serve some purpose in the Devil's machinations later on.

[Conradine]

Little unrelated question: would be possible to make a pact to skip the "torture until every iota of personality is lost", mabye in exchange of many sacrifices and/or resources?

[torrasque666]

Little unrelated question: would be possible to make a pact to skip the "torture until every iota of personality is lost", mabye in exchange of many sacrifices and/or resources?

No devil, except for maybe one of the archfiends, would ever agree to that. They'd be bound by the pact to do what they've agreed to, and basically every devil except for aforementioned archfiends lacks that kind of power. They simply don't get to decide that.

Or if they do, it'll be in such a way that the pact is voided upon death, at which point the devil is free from the pact and doesn't have to try anyway. They are​ LE after all.

[GrayDeath]

In your opinion it would be possible to make a contract that explicitly forbids and prevents the mortal from atoning?

Possible?
Clearly.

But most people who make these Deals still think they have a chance to "get out", so it would likely not be done without extreme Circumstances, like below..


A little unrelated question: would it be possible to make a pact to skip the "torture until every iota of personality is lost" Part, mabye in exchange for many sacrifices and/or resources?

FTFY.

As answered above, only Archfiends and Asmodeus CAN grant that.


Now if you maange to offer something they really want, and youa re the onbly (or clearly the "cheapest) way to achieve that, they might.
Likely though in combination with the above.
After all, cant let people excape that manage to get a favourable deal now, can we?

I as GM for one would only very very rarely offer that option, but I would.

Edit: IIRC a Co DM and myself once built a Prestige Class that did exactly that. At i9ts end (9 Levels of course^^) you become a fitting Devil in addition to your existing Levels (I think we used Bone Devils as Template?).

[InvisibleBison]

In your opinion it would be possible to make a contract that explicitly forbids and prevents the mortal from atoning?

Possible? Sure, maybe. But I think it would be redundant. Atonement means that your soul won't go to hell when you die, which already puts you in breach of the contract. I don't see how making atonement breach the contract twice is any different.

[Conradine]

I meant a contract who makes atonement impossible, not simply contract-breaking.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I meant a contract who makes atonement impossible, not simply contract-breaking.

I would imagine there's such a clause in a pact certain. I'd also imagine there's no getting out of damnation no matter how thoroughly you atone for your misdeeds following the signing of it. Upshot; you're probably not slated for ASAP termination either since your formal dedication to one of the Archdukes makes you more useful alive than being processed into a lemure. For now.

[Nifft]

Redemption from evil shouldn't break your infernal contract.

You'd still end up in hell, you'd just be a non-evil soul when you got there.

Good for you, I guess? But probably better for whoever owns your soul, since it's probably an unusual rarity.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Redemption from evil shouldn't break your infernal contract.

You'd still end up in hell, you'd just be a non-evil soul when you got there.

Good for you, I guess? But probably better for whoever owns your soul, since it's probably an unusual rarity.

The more common pact insidious doesn't damn you directly. It sets you up to owe the devil a series of favors in exchange for whatever you got or will get. Those favors invariably lead the mortal down the path to becoming lawful and evil, in that order, and -that- is what damns you.

Atonement can save your soul and, depending on what it was, doesn't return the devil's investment. Losing resources will get a devil punished by his superiors so they're -really- eager to prevent that.

With the lowest level devils, there isn't even a formal pact. It's just an imbalanced, informal quid-pro-quo arrangement.

So yeah, redemption's a pretty big factor.

[CIDE]

This is not true though. Even the lowest level dirt poor dirt farming commoner knows "don't make any deals with a devil" It really falls under the common sense that everyone knows.

It's not that people are culeless when they make a deal with a devil: it is that they choose to do it.

The knowledge that you shouldn't make a deal with the devil doesn't mean that they know they're going to get murdered right after to avoid their atonement of their immortal soul. There's sooooo many other potential negatives involved. That poor dirt farmer likely wouldn't know (or care) of the difference between a devil or a demon and the implications therein with trying to make a deal with them.


In your opinion it would be possible to make a contract that explicitly forbids and prevents the mortal from atoning?

Probably. Likewise, there can be stipulations that there can be no premature attempts on the mortal's life. Possibly for that exact trade off.



Little unrelated question: would be possible to make a pact to skip the "torture until every iota of personality is lost", mabye in exchange of many sacrifices and/or resources?

As others pointed out most devils a mortal might deal with simply don't have that authority. But, it does make me wonder what happens if the mortal can somehow turn themselves into a devil/outsider of a higher level before they die would they be allowed to stay that way?