We're underleveled: How do I approach this with my DM?

[jaappleton]

Here's the scenario:

My group plays online. We use D&D Beyond. I am on the East Coast, with my DM on the West Coast of America. My DM is a great person. We worked out years ago that I'd give him access to my D&D Beyond account, as I'm a bit more financially well off than himself. If he's going to be kind enough to run the games, I am more than happy to help provide the books.

I also DM occasionally for my home group.

As a result, both my DM and I can see all the books. So during adventures, me, as a player, I often know what to expect. However, I've always separated player knowledge from character knowledge. I never take the lead on my own, I always try to defer to another party member so as to not let any knowledge I have as a player guide the party decision making.

Though to be brutally honest, there have been times where despite the DM throwing out a big and obvious hook, the other players don't take the bait. Not that they don't want to, they just don't recognize the hook, and he'll sorta nudge me to.... Y'know, grab the hook and gently push the party toward the overarching goal. I think this is something lots of players and DMs can relate to.

We're currently playing through an adventure, and the party is 3rd level.
We are quite clearly, as stated by the book, supposed to be 4th level.

Now, the difference between 3rd and 4th isn't absolutely *massive*. An ASI / Feat and some HP, really. Can we get through the adventure? More than likely.

But if not corrected, then when we're only 4th level going into an area expected us to be 5th level, that's a big problem. As we all know, things like 3rd level spells and Extra Attack are quite a power jump. After all, it starts a whole new tier of play, does it not?

How can I go about talking to my DM about this without stepping on his toes?

[Dork_Forge]

Something like "Hey, so I'm somewhat familiar with the adventure and I'm pretty sure we're a level behind where we should be. I'm not metagaming and I keep my player and character knowledge separate, but I just wanted to make you aware so you can address it before we start to hit encounters where the power gap becomes a problem."

[Yakk]

How many PCs? An extra body (say, 5) outweights an extra level, even 4 to 5.

[Yora]

Most importantly, encounter difficulty estimates are always nothing more than ballpark estimates.

Who say the party has to be 4th level at this point? Almost certainly, it does not. Being of a lower level simply means some fights will be a bit tougher and progress will be a bit slower. That doesn't stop the adventure from continuing.

It only becomes a reasonable complaint once the players are getting frustrated that almost all fights are way too hard and their characters are dying to frequently. Unless that's the case, the campaign would be totally playable.

[Gungor]

Is it leveling by XP or by milestone? If it is by XP, are you saying that the DM has incorrectly calculated XP or misread the leveling tables in the PHB? If this is the case it is likely a math error and there should be no issue in calling it to his attention.

Or are you saying that it is milestone leveling and based on the recommendations in the adventure, the DM missed an opportunity to award a milestone level-up? I think this is probably an oversight which again can be corrected by a "hey, I noticed" message to him.

Or are you saying that you are correctly at 3rd level, but the DM is prepping an adventure/quest that calls for 4th level characters and you believe he hasn't realized this? He may be planning on adjusting encounter difficulty to accommodate your level or he may feel that your party is able to handle it - because of size, or makeup, or how well you play tactically, or because he will allow more frequent short/long rests, or...

If it is this last option, then while i think it is still fine for you to bring this to his attention, you should be prepared for a response along the lines of "OK, thanks for letting me know" and that's it. There is a lot of room for the DM to make the adventure work for the party without awarding a level - especially if he is aware.

[KorvinStarmast]

How many PCs? An extra body (say, 5) outweighs an extra level, even 4 to 5. This. We've seen this at numerous tables.

[jaappleton]

Its Saltmarsh, which uses milestone leveling, and we're a group of 5 players.

[Cry Havoc]

Here's the scenario:

My group plays online. We use D&D Beyond. I am on the East Coast, with my DM on the West Coast of America. My DM is a great person. We worked out years ago that I'd give him access to my D&D Beyond account, as I'm a bit more financially well off than himself. If he's going to be kind enough to run the games, I am more than happy to help provide the books.

I also DM occasionally for my home group.

As a result, both my DM and I can see all the books. So during adventures, me, as a player, I often know what to expect. However, I've always separated player knowledge from character knowledge. I never take the lead on my own, I always try to defer to another party member so as to not let any knowledge I have as a player guide the party decision making.

Though to be brutally honest, there have been times where despite the DM throwing out a big and obvious hook, the other players don't take the bait. Not that they don't want to, they just don't recognize the hook, and he'll sorta nudge me to.... Y'know, grab the hook and gently push the party toward the overarching goal. I think this is something lots of players and DMs can relate to.

We're currently playing through an adventure, and the party is 3rd level.
We are quite clearly, as stated by the book, supposed to be 4th level.

Now, the difference between 3rd and 4th isn't absolutely *massive*. An ASI / Feat and some HP, really. Can we get through the adventure? More than likely.

But if not corrected, then when we're only 4th level going into an area expected us to be 5th level, that's a big problem. As we all know, things like 3rd level spells and Extra Attack are quite a power jump. After all, it starts a whole new tier of play, does it not?

How can I go about talking to my DM about this without stepping on his toes?

Totally ignore it and have faith in your DM.

Serious answer.

[OldTrees1]

Here's the scenario:

But if not corrected, then when we're only 4th level going into an area expected us to be 5th level, that's a big problem. As we all know, things like 3rd level spells and Extra Attack are quite a power jump. After all, it starts a whole new tier of play, does it not?

How can I go about talking to my DM about this without stepping on his toes?

Ignore the difference between 3 & 4.
Also trust your DM on the difference between 4 & 5.

However perhaps talk about power curves as an unrelated side conversation. Smooth vs ones with big power spikes. Talk about how the power spikes (in Monsters and in PCs) at tier boundaries. Either the DM is aware of the power spikes, or this is an innocent side conversation.

[Keravath]

Its Saltmarsh, which uses milestone leveling, and we're a group of 5 players.

Unfortunately, although Saltmarsh uses milestone leveling, the adventures don't actually say when to level the characters up. Looking at the progression I would guess the DM just forgot or didn't realize ... but details in the spoiler.



The Sinister secret of Saltmarsh - 4-6 characters - advancing from level 1 -3 - over two parts
Danger at Dunwater - 4-6 characters - level 3 (they should probably advance to 4 by the end of it)
Salvage Operation - 4-6 characters - level 4
Isle of the Abbey - 4-6 characters - level 5

Danger at Dunwater can be mostly a social encounter depending on how the players interact with the Lizardfolk. However, XP is still awarded for resolving the negotiations. It states 1600 xp for successful completion but doesn't specify for the group or per player. Given that the next adventure expects level 4 characters, as DM, I'd likely interpret that as per player, which when combined with XP from killing the giant crocodile (which is 2300xp) should be enough to take the characters to level 4.

If the issue is a lack of leveling up after Danger at Dunwater ... you could just send a private message to the DM asking about it since you may have played Saltmarsh previously. It's possible that the DM has something in mind taking the adventure off script and inserting something in between or it could be that they didn't realize the next adventure is aimed at level 4s. On the other hand, if they are the type of DM that tends to focus on combat for advancement then they may have discounted the character's diplomatic efforts with the Lizardfolk.

However, depending on how the DM runs the other adventures and how they scale the encounters, they can run any of these with slightly more or less difficult encounters to match the actual level of the party so in the long run it isn't a big deal if the DM is able do that as required.

----

I'm currently running Saltmarsh with some TfYP thrown in (as suggested as an option at the beginning of GoS) so I'm probably going to level the characters up a bit slower and adjust content to fit the party abilities.

The party met on a ship traveling to Saltmarsh (one of the Solmor trading ships) and helped fight off a Sahaugin attack which helped establish a small reputation in certain circles when they reached Saltmarsh.

In my game, they were approached by an agent of Solmor (Skerrin - Scarlet Brotherhood) to investigate the haunted house (Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh) but I also had the Hucrele family of Saltmarsh show up asking them to investigate the disappearance of their wayward adventurer children (Sunless Citadel).

They decided the rescue mission had a higher priority but were able to negotiate a week time limit to investigate the haunted house ... so they took on both jobs :) ... we'll see how it goes. Anyway, if your DM is mixing content I could see leveling going off track.

[Man_Over_Game]

Ignore the difference between 3 & 4.
Also trust your DM on the difference between 4 & 5.

However perhaps talk about power curves as an unrelated side conversation. Smooth vs ones with big power spikes. Talk about how the power spikes (in Monsters and in PCs) at tier boundaries. Either the DM is aware of the power spikes, or this is an innocent side conversation.

That's a good idea. Bring it up to the party to make sure they're aware of the power gap and so they're leveling appropriately so they don't get stomped at 4-5.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To be fair, your GM might be altering the encounters in some way-- god knows I've done that often enough running modules-- in which case expected level is sort of moot. I wouldn't worry about it unless it becomes an actual problem.

[J-H]

One player up and one level down sounds about right. I wouldn't sweat it.
Like, unless you have multiple PCs killed or a TPK, obviously it's not really a problem.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm currently DMing Saltmarsh with 4 characters created with the Point Buy system and access to feats and multi-classing if they wanted to. I've only given out the magic items in the mod.
They have completed the last 2 chapters at 1 level below recommended and I've still had to beef up the baddies a bit. I'm planning on putting them through the last one (The Styes) at level 9 which is 2 levels below recommended. They are experienced players who like a challenge.
Unless things are already going sideways for your group I'd say you should be OK, particularly with the extra player.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

He may think that the encounters are too easy as is and try to give you a challenge.

I do it to my players all the time, I usually use deadly encounters built for characters 2-3 level higher instead of medium encounters.

A DM in a game I play did react in a similar way to you.
He thought that it was unreasonable to bring the party into encounters with enemies way above their level.


As long as everyone enjoys it is the right choice. You may disagree with the method but in the right group its the best course of action.