Warlock build help

[jendar41]

Hi all,

I am starting a new gritty realism campaign and am looking for some build help. I posted an earlier thread, but some things have changed since then. DM decided not use rolled numbers and every player has either point buy or the standard array. It is a gritty realism sandbox exploration hexcrawl where short rests are 8 hours and long rests are a week. DM is capping the short rests at 2-3 per long rests to ensure class balance.

Party consist of a paladin (ancients), cleric (life), rogue (swashbuckler), and an artificier (subclass unknown).

I think I have settled on a warlock, but IÂ’m not sure what class choices to make. IÂ’m currently thinking of the idea to focus on some AOE, along with pushing and pulling, but itÂ’s hard to fit everything I want into one build. Starting at level 2. A few things I am unsure of:

1. IÂ’m thinking of laying down create bonfire to start, and then hopefully using repelling blast and thorn whip from pact of the tome to push and pull people through the bonfire. Later upgraded to cloud of daggers, stinking cloud, wall of fire/sickening radiance, etc. how viable is this strategy? Is it worth the number of invocations it takes? With the exception of spirit guardians later on (hopefully), doesnÂ’t seem like anyone else will be laying down battlefield effects except me.

2. What patron is best for this? Fiend has some good blasty spells and wall of fire, but celestial gets some healing and extra fire damage. Celestial also seems to work well when I want to use green flame blade.

3. Is it worth it two spend two of the tome cantrips on shillelagh and green flame blade? I like the idea of being able to engage in melee when I want to/if I need to, but cantrips are already at a premium. Is this a waste of resources? The paladin and cleric will be front line, and I believe the rogue will be a melee striker. Am I trying to do too much here, especially since engaging in melee regularly would also likely require the medium armor feat.

4. Is ritual casting from pact of the tome worth it with this group relative to giving up/delaying other invocations? The cleric will have rituals as will the artificier, so not sure if needed.

5. How should I prioritize invocations, especially starting off? Already I want way more than I can access. Agonizing blast, repelling blast, the ritual invocation, devils sight, mask of many faces. Which ones should I delay?

6. What race/feat choice should I make? IÂ’m thinking of human with the medium armor feat. Seems like not getting hit will be at a premium in this campaign? Alternatively should I go half-elf and elven accuracy? Is my idea of pushing and pulling through obstacles so dependent on movement I should start human with mobile, or Tabaxi with its repeated ability to dash? Additionally, actor looks like a ton of fun with mask of the many faces, but then IÂ’m delaying the other abilities I need.

7. What cantrips/spells should I start with? Seems like my build requires at a minimum EB and create bonfire, plus repelling blast. Is it worth it to take sorcerer to get more cantrips, such as mage hand, friends (works great with mask of many faces), green flame blade (letting me take guidance as well with my pact of tome)? Along with some spells? If so, when and how many levels? I generally try to avoid multiclassing but will do so if really worth it.

I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

[WaroftheCrans]

I think I have settled on a warlock, but IÂ’m not sure what class choices to make. IÂ’m currently thinking of the idea to focus on some AOE, along with pushing and pulling, but itÂ’s hard to fit everything I want into one build. Starting at level 2. A few things I am unsure of:

1. IÂ’m thinking of laying down create bonfire to start, and then hopefully using repelling blast and thorn whip from pact of the tome to push and pull people through the bonfire. Later upgraded to cloud of daggers, stinking cloud, wall of fire/sickening radiance, etc. how viable is this strategy? Is it worth the number of invocations it takes? With the exception of spirit guardians later on (hopefully), doesnÂ’t seem like anyone else will be laying down battlefield effects except me.

It's an interesting idea. I'd refrain from using thorn whip, due to the range of it and the tax on your tome pact. Pushing an enemy away might be sufficient, and using create bonfire for battlefield effects is interesting. Keep in mind it's concentration, so it's not going to be great at higher levels. If you can't replace cantrips at higher levels I personally would abstain from it.



2. What patron is best for this? Fiend has some good blasty spells and wall of fire, but celestial gets some healing and extra fire damage. Celestial also seems to work well when I want to use green flame blade.

There is a problem with the warlock class. The problem's name is hexblade. You want to take shillelagh for cha dependent attacks? Hb does it for free. You want proficiency in all weapons? Hb. You want medium armor and shields? Hb. You want to be a good blaster? Hexblade's curse. Now, hexblade does not get access to wall of fire, nor flaming sphere/stinking cloud like celestial/fiend, but for me the level one features alone tip the scales to hexblade. You have a life cleric, so you don't need the healing from celestial either.



3. Is it worth it two spend two of the tome cantrips on shillelagh and green flame blade? I like the idea of being able to engage in melee when I want to/if I need to, but cantrips are already at a premium. Is this a waste of resources? The paladin and cleric will be front line, and I believe the rogue will be a melee striker. Am I trying to do too much here, especially since engaging in melee regularly would also likely require the medium armor feat.

Hexblade is the answer here. I wouldn't pick up shillelagh even if you're not hexblade however. Your dexterity should be enough to land a hit if not. Using a tome slot and an extra action is costly. Get a utility cantrip imo.


4. Is ritual casting from pact of the tome worth it with this group relative to giving up/delaying other invocations? The cleric will have rituals as will the artificier, so not sure if needed.
I would take it for find familiar and tiny hut alone. It's very good, and provides access to a lot of spells the artificer and cleric can't access.


5. How should I prioritize invocations, especially starting off? Already I want way more than I can access. Agonizing blast, repelling blast, the ritual invocation, devils sight, mask of many faces. Which ones should I delay?

Depending on race, devil's sight might be unnecessary. How much will you be using darkness in this hexcrawl campaign? Mask of many faces is much more useful for intrigue. It wouldn't be very useful in most crawls I've played. You can delay ritual casting to 5th level, as that's when you can first access tiny hut anyway. Agonizing blast and repelling blast are now "free," but if you don't go hexblade I'd pick up the mage armor invocation before one of them.


6. What race/feat choice should I make? IÂ’m thinking of human with the medium armor feat. Seems like not getting hit will be at a premium in this campaign? Alternatively should I go half-elf and elven accuracy? Is my idea of pushing and pulling through obstacles so dependent on movement I should start human with mobile, or Tabaxi with its repeated ability to dash? Additionally, actor looks like a ton of fun with mask of the many faces, but then IÂ’m delaying the other abilities I need.

Vhuman is always solid, but warcaster is a better choice in my eyes. As a controller, you want the con saves and the ability to ignore somatic components.
Half elf is great, but elven accuracy is better if you decide to be a blaster. It doesn't help your spell save dc after all :)
Movement doesn't seem entirely necessary for this, but tabaxi are pretty fun anyway. Don't be afraid to give them a whirl. Same with any other races, optimal isn't everything.


7. What cantrips/spells should I start with? Seems like my build requires at a minimum EB and create bonfire, plus repelling blast. Is it worth it to take sorcerer to get more cantrips, such as mage hand, friends (works great with mask of many faces), green flame blade (letting me take guidance as well with my pact of tome)? Along with some spells? If so, when and how many levels? I generally try to avoid multiclassing but will do so if really worth it.
I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

I'd play the character a bit before deciding that. I wouldn't multiclass before fifth anyway, but then a level might be useful for shield spell slots and the cantrips.

[Catullus64]

I'll simply state my general advice for Warlock builds: Beware the temptation of the Blast. Over-investing in Eldritch Blast robs the warlock of so much of its potential, and outside of certain multiclass builds, its damage isn't that much higher than what most martial characters can do.

As for your specific build questions, I like the Bonfire shennanigans. A friend of mine had great fun with Create Bonfire (and other localized damage effects) combined with Sentinel and grappling. Forced movement cantrips (I would prefer Grasp of Hadar over Repelling Blast, myself) only make it better. It's tricky to pull off, and it's nowhere near optimal, but it feels great to play.

From a purely build-based standpoint, I suppose Celestial is your best bet, for better fire damage. I'm always leery of making Patron advice based on build, though, since Warlock has so many RP constraints based on subclass, and they aren't that different mechanically. I suppose if you want to take orders from a sword like some wimpy Melnibonean, there's a mechanically superior option, but there are better masters to pledge your soul to.

As long as you're going Pact of the Tome (and you must be, if you want Create Bonfire), pick up Mold Earth. Nothing like free difficult terrain and improvised pit traps on a character focused on forced movement and localized damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. ...how viable is this strategy? Is it worth the number of invocations it takes?

I'd say absolutely start with the Fiendish Vigor invocation, and be sure to spam that until you roll max between encounters. Skip all the melee cantrips, stick to EB and rely on good positioning (see race recommendations below) to stay out of melee. The Cleric should have Guidance, and the Artificer should have Mage Hand, so only worry about picking those if either of them decides not to. Also keep in mind you can't repick your book's cantrips, you're stuck with whatever you pick so make sure it's something you'll want to keep.

2. What patron is best for this?

The Fiend is the strongest choice in general, but for what you're going for the Genie (Efreeti or Marid) from UA can also work for AoE damage or crowd control, respectively. You don't really need medium armor and shield proficiency, but if you want those you can go Hexblade. See race recommendations below.

3. Is this a waste of resources?

I'd definitely skip that for sure. You don't want to be in melee, or you want to get out of melee if you do find yourself there. If you want to be melee capable go Hexblade, but see race recommendations below.

4. Is ritual casting from pact of the tome worth it?

Not necessarily, but you may find yourself wishing you'd had it. If you think you have better choices then go ahead and skip this, but once you get a feel for the rest of the party you may find this necessary after all. Remember you can swap out an invocation every time you level up.

5. How should I prioritize invocations, especially starting off?

Given the circumstances, Fiendish Vigor is a must-have especially at this level. It can be swapped out later on when it's less impactful or if someone picks up Inspiring Leader. At level 2 you've only got one more, so pick what you think you'll get the most use out of. Mask of Many Faces plus Friends would be my choice if you expect to have more noncombat encounters than fights, otherwise you can't really go wrong with Agonizing Blast.

6. What race/feat choice should I make?

I'd personally go with a Goblin for this one (and Mask of Many Faces). You can bonus action disengage and EB from outside of melee, or bonus action hide and then EB with advantage on the attacks. Sadly your Cha won't be higher than 15 starting out with this, but it does bonus two stats you need and long-term it looks to me like this will be your best choice. Winged (but not feral) Tiefling is also really good with Grasp of Hadar or Thorn Whip as pulling them 10 ft. up makes them fall back down for another 1d6 damage and land prone. If you're flying over the bonfire there's a good chance they'll land on it for even more damage. You generally can't reliably do this on dungeon crawls unless the rooms are fairly large and open, and picking the Genie can do this from 6th level, so Goblin is still the better choice IMO.

7. What cantrips/spells should I start with?

Don't multiclass, unless you want to do the Coffeelock shenanigans with Sorcery points, but even then the cap on short rests will seriously mitigate the usefulness of that. You have other casters in the party who should be taking Guidance and Mage Hand, and you don't really need any melee cantrips anyway. For spells, you can't go wrong picking Hex, keep in mind it lasts an hour and doesn't end when combat ends, you can redirect it to a new opponent at the beginning of a new encounter. It does take concentration so it can end early and it competes with Create Bonfire, but it helps with someone grappling/shoving, or hinder perception checks if you pick Goblin. Otherwise pick a spell from your patron, or maybe start with Arms of Hadar for escaping melee if you don't pick Goblin.


In summary, for this I'd go with a Goblin, Str 8, Dex 14+2, Con 15+1, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 15. Tell the party you're a gnome with a disease or curse that's turned you green, pick a background that gives you a language to pick up gnomish. Pick the Genie (Efreeti) as your patron and pick the compartmented ring as the vessel so your hand isn't occupied when using it. Invocations starting out are Fiendish Vigor and Mask of Many Faces. Starting cantrips are EB and Friends, spells known are Hex, Burning Hands, and maybe Cause Fear or Armor of Agathys or whatever else looks good. At 4th level get Actor, and be sure to be proficient in Deception and Performance.

[Bloodcloud]

Just an aside, you are much better coordinating with a team member such as a druid casting spike growth for setting up the damage zone. You don't need to do everything yourself, it is a team game, and the warlock does excel at movement manipulation while maintaining top damage.

Check with other players and make it a group effort, it will be more fun AND more efficient.

[Keravath]

The goblin sounds like an interesting option with bonus action hide and disengage which will help prevent you being trapped in melee and unable to attack. Mask of many faces could let you look like anyone you like.

However, I also like the idea of the hexblade over the other patron options, mostly for charisma to hit, weapon options but particularly medium armor and shields which will help prevent your character taking damage.

I do think a feat to boost your concentration checks would be useful but I would lean toward resilient con if you are going the caster route. This is because even with armor and shield you will still have a hand free for casting spells since you won't often be holding a weapon. At lower levels warcaster is better at maintaining concentration but con save proficiency is beneficial, the +1 con can be distributed to increase your hit points and in the long run resilient con works out better. Hopefully, you won't have that many opportunities for op attacks which makes war caster even less desirable.

Tomelock for rituals is also good since you can pick up find familiar and Leomund's Tiny Hut among others which are both stellar. Later on there are spells like Rary's Telepathic Bond and early spells include Alarm, Unseen Servant and others that can be very useful. However, you do need to hope the DM put spell scrolls for these rituals in the game as treasure. It would also be good to find cantrip scrolls you could copy to your book.

Should be fun to play.

P.S. However, I think the strategy of using an action to create a bonfire and then running around trying to push/pull the creature into the bonfire is a bit too much work for little gain. They get a dex save ... it is only d8 damage ... a single agonizing blast is d10+cha ... at level 1 this is 8.5 average damage compared to 4.5 from bonfire. Bonfire is concentration. Hex is a bonus action cast, concentration and last for an hour. If you want to come up with extra damage, you are probably much better off using hex than trying to push creatures into a bonfire.

The tactic might work better at higher levels when you have access to better control spells but I wouldn't invest heavily in picking invocations to try to make it work since at least with bonfires it isn't very efficient.

[jendar41]

Thanks for the comments so far. A few things to note in case it helps: DM has eliminated the ritual tag for Leomunds Tiny Hut. Believes it would trvialize the exploration/resting aspect of the hexcrawl.

I agree hex blade is tempting and frees up resources, but then I’m worried I won’t get some of the good spells that work well with pushing and pulling like wall of fire, stinking cloud, and or guardian of faith. Do you think the build would work well enough with just cloud of daggers and sickening radiance (unless there are other spells I’m missing)? Given the makeup of the party it seems like outside of spiritual guardians from the cleric I’ll be left to creating my own effects or the DM’s terrain.

[jendar41]

P.S. However, I think the strategy of using an action to create a bonfire and then running around trying to push/pull the creature into the bonfire is a bit too much work for little gain. They get a dex save ... it is only d8 damage ... a single agonizing blast is d10+cha ... at level 1 this is 8.5 average damage compared to 4.5 from bonfire. Bonfire is concentration. Hex is a bonus action cast, concentration and last for an hour. If you want to come up with extra damage, you are probably much better off using hex than trying to push creatures into a bonfire.

The tactic might work better at higher levels when you have access to better control spells but I wouldn't invest heavily in picking invocations to try to make it work since at least with bonfires it isn't very efficient.

I think create bonfire at least has the potential to hit multiple enemies the first round if they are within 5 feet of each other. And on subsequent rounds it can deal EB damage plus bonfire damage at the same time.

Also in case it is relevant to the discussion, DM will be increasing spell durations so ten minutes goes to one hour, one hour goes to eight hours, eight hours goes to three days, and 24 hours goes to seven days.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think create bonfire at least has the potential to hit multiple enemies the first round if they are within 5 feet of each other. And on subsequent rounds it can deal EB damage plus bonfire damage at the same time.

Also in case it is relevant to the discussion, DM will be increasing spell durations so ten minutes goes to one hour, one hour goes to eight hours, eight hours goes to three days, and 24 hours goes to seven days.

Create Bonfire only covers a single 5-ft. cube, and only someone in that square takes damage from it. You'll be running back and forth trying to push/pull opponents onto a single square, it's going to be more effort than it's worth IMO. Being able to fly and pull them off the ground so they take falling damage and land prone is way more reliable where the ceiling height permits it.

With the duration increases, your Mask of Many Faces can last from when you go to sleep to when you wake up, so you can always look like not-a-goblin if you go that route. This also makes Hex last all day regardless of how many encounters you have, just try not to get hit and lose concentration. That even makes Protection from Evil and Good a viable option for the Cleric to prepare, if you're running into a lot of opponents it will affect.

[WaroftheCrans]

Thanks for the comments so far. A few things to note in case it helps: DM has eliminated the ritual tag for Leomunds Tiny Hut. Believes it would trvialize the exploration/resting aspect of the hexcrawl.

I agree hex blade is tempting and frees up resources, but then I’m worried I won’t get some of the good spells that work well with pushing and pulling like wall of fire, stinking cloud, and or guardian of faith. Do you think the build would work well enough with just cloud of daggers and sickening radiance (unless there are other spells I’m missing)? Given the makeup of the party it seems like outside of spiritual guardians from the cleric I’ll be left to creating my own effects or the DM’s terrain.

You are missing wall of light, darkness and hunger of hadar. Which isn't really huge, granted, but you can also throw in aoe spells like cone of cold, synaptic static, hypnotic pattern, etc.

It might be a good idea to ask your dm if you can still pick up leomund's tiny hut with the Book of Ancient Secrets, as otherwise no one in your party has access to it. Will have to expend a spell slot, but it still might be quite worthwhile. Otherwise Alarm will have to be what guards your group as you sleep, setting it to a mental ping means that you automatically wake up when it gets activated. A bell should wake you up, but some DM's I've played with have had the party make perception checks (while asleep) to see if it was heard.