Martial Study: can you learn same maneuver twice?

[Hiro Quester]

Martial study, taken without initiator levels, grants the use of one maneuver, once per encounter.

If you later take a level in an initiator class, this does not change the once per encounter use of that Maneuver. You still can't refresh it.

Can you learn that Maneuver again as part of the initiator class, and have the ability to ready that maneuver as part of your initiator class's readied maneuvers (effectively getting two uses of that maneuver before you need to refresh)?

[PhantasyPen]

I suppose theoretically you could try that. It seems a waste of resources though from where I'm standing.

[Gruftzwerg]

No you can't. "Maneuvers Known" is for your entire character and not classbound!
"The method of refreshing" is bound to the initiator classes (or Martial Study).

This is also one of the options to build a "Idiot Crusader":

You take a lvl of Warblade, grab as much maneuvers as possible that you could also take as Crusader (leaving not enough for lvl 1 crusader!). Extra Granted Maneuver helps your Crusader now to ready all available maneuvers left (where the refesh method is bound to crusader) each round.

When you take your 4th lvl as Warblade you have the option to exchange "one maneuver known" (doesn't require that the refresh method of that maneuver is bound to Warblade!). You exchange a maneuver where the refresh method is bound to Crusader and take any other maneuver and bind it to Warblade. Now when you ready maneuvers as Crusader, you ready 1 more than you actually know (with Crusader refreshment). This gives the option to learn a new maneuver with Martial Study and fill the last spot for the Crusader with a higher lvl maneuver. Abuse your maneuvers known from Warblade for required prerequisites for the maneuver you want to add to Crusader. You can repeat this always when Warblade allows to exchange a maneuver.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No you can't. "Maneuvers Known" is for your entire character and not classbound!
"The method of refreshing" is bound to the initiator classes (or Martial Study).

This is also one of the options to build a "Idiot Crusader":

You take a lvl of Warblade, grab as much maneuvers as possible that you could also take as Crusader (leaving not enough for lvl 1 crusader!). Extra Granted Maneuver helps your Crusader now to ready all available maneuvers left (where the refesh method is bound to crusader) each round.

When you take your 4th lvl as Warblade you have the option to exchange "one maneuver known" (doesn't require that the refresh method of that maneuver is bound to Warblade!). You exchange a maneuver where the refresh method is bound to Crusader and take any other maneuver and bind it to Warblade. Now when you ready maneuvers as Crusader, you ready 1 more than you actually know (with Crusader refreshment). This gives the option to learn a new maneuver with Martial Study and fill the last spot for the Crusader with a higher lvl maneuver. Abuse your maneuvers known from Warblade for required prerequisites for the maneuver you want to add to Crusader. You can repeat this always when Warblade allows to exchange a maneuver.If that was the case, and you can only take a maneuver known once (and can't take it for both classes because taking it with one class means you know it for both), then wouldn't that mean that all of your initiator classes get all maneuvers known for both classes? So taking Crusader's Strike on crusader means you also know it for warblade or swordsage if you take a level?

[Mike Miller]

I thought the book explicitly said you can't learn a maneuver twice, but I just went through it. I didn't see anything forbidding it. It feels like one of those "common sense" situations where you already know something so how could you learn it again? However, it doesn't seem to be addressed RAW. The book has a fairly short section on learning new maneuvers.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I thought the book explicitly said you can't learn a maneuver twice, but I just went through it. I didn't see anything forbidding it. It feels like one of those "common sense" situations where you already know something so how could you learn it again? However, it doesn't seem to be addressed RAW. The book has a fairly short section on learning new maneuvers.Well, a wizard/sorcerer multiclass can have the same spell known on both classes' lists.

[Gruftzwerg]

If that was the case, and you can only take a maneuver known once (and can't take it for both classes because taking it with one class means you know it for both), then wouldn't that mean that all of your initiator classes get all maneuvers known for both classes? So taking Crusader's Strike on crusader means you also know it for warblade or swordsage if you take a level?

Yes, but remember that knowing doesn't mean that you can choose your refreshing method. The refreshing method is bind on acquisition depending on the source:
a) if you did got the maneuver from classlvl, the refreshing method is bound to the class
b) if you did got it from Martial Study, at the moment of taking the feat, the refreshing is selected (if you have an initiator class available at that moment. if not, you have no refreshing method for that maneuvers.).

From the unofficial ToB errata (http://drammelsnotes.wikidot.com/the-unofficial-official-errata).
Here are the important "Q&As":

Q: If you are a multiclass martial adept (from Tome of Battle), a swordsage/warblade for example, do you have to keep your maneuvers known and maneuvers readied separate for each class?
A: If a character has multiple martial adept base classes, the maneuvers known and readied from each class are kept separate. Knowing a maneuver for one class does not mean you can ready it for the other, or vice versa.

Q: If you have levels in two different martial adept classes (from Tome of Battle), such as swordsage and warblade for example, can you use maneuvers that you have for one class to meet the prereqs for a maneuver in your other class?
A: If a maneuver has a prerequisite that requires you to have a certain number of maneuvers from a certain martial discipline, then it only matters if you have that many maneuvers of that discipline. It does not matter if the maneuvers all belong to the same class.
For example, a swordsage 3/warblade 2 has a single Diamond Mind maneuver from the swordsage class. When this character takes a 3rd level of warblade, they gain another maneuver known and can choose Emerald Razor, using the Diamond Mind maneuver known from the Swordsage levels to qualify.

Q: The maneuvers known description of the crusader, swordsage, and warblade (in the Tome of Battle) state that you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you already know. However, these descriptions are unclear about whether you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you learned through another class. Can you swap maneuvers gained through different classes?
To clarify this with an example, can a crusader 4/warblade 3 who has taken an additional level in the warblade class and learned a maneuver as a result 'forget' a maneuver that he learned through his crusader levels and learn a warblade maneuver in place of that maneuver?
A: Yes, these abilities do not care what the origin of the replaced maneuver is.

If you take all the answers, the picture that emerges is:
- you keep separate track of "Maneuvers known" because of the refresh method (and for no other reason)
- Maneuvers known count for your entire character, not only for a single class. This leads to the fact that you can "know a maneuver" only once. Remember that you are forced to "pick a new maneuver known", and it's not new when you already know it from other classes/Martial Study.

____________________

The problem lies in the difficult wording:
While you keep separate track of "Maneuvers Known" (because of the refresh methods), the rules only have the category "maneuvers known" and not "(class) maneuvers known". This is the misleading part.
I stepped upon it while I was reading the errata a few years ago..
It is really hidden between the lines..^^

[Hiro Quester]

To be clear: This is for dipping occasionally into an initiator class (swordsage) throughout a build's career.

The idea is to take Martial study early, to learn one maneuver and, importantly, to make the discipline's key skill in-class for all classes in a skill-starved build where that skill is needed for a PrC.

Then take a bunch of levels of non-initiator class levels, with Swordsage's first level later on when you have IL6 to get a few third-level maneuvers and a first -level stance, and then dipping back in later for higher-level maneuvers.

If one and only one low-level maneuver from that school is really useful to your build, having one use per encounter (unrefreshable) and another use that is refreshable can be very helpful, especially since refreshing is difficult for swordsage.

I also don't see anything forbidding it. Nor forbidding a Warblade/Swordsage from learning the same maneuver from two classes.

It seems like a gnome wizard having prestidigitation as a SLA1/day, but also preparing it as a wizard spell for more uses/day.

You don't usually need to do so, but I don't see any reason why you could not?


Edit: I just re-read the part about a new maneuver known. I'm not sure that applies.

When learning maneuvers it says "You begin your career with knowledge of six martial maneuvers" and "You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels". It only uses "new" when describing swapping an earlier one for a new one of a higher level.

Further edit:
I just found this fairly unequivocal answer in the unofficial official errata (which I did not even know was collected) from the Customer Service Sage:

Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?
A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.

I guess that settles it. If you learn a Maneuver from Martial Study before taking initiator levels, it should be one you will only want to use once/encounter since you can't refresh it

[Gruftzwerg]

Edit: I just re-read the part about a new maneuver known. I'm not sure that applies.

When learning maneuvers it says "You begin your career with knowledge of six martial maneuvers" and "You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels". It only uses "new" when describing swapping an earlier one for a new one of a higher level.

Have a look at page 46 "Adding Maneuvers and Stances" makes explicit use of new maneuvers.
Sorry..^^
as said, the infos are really hidden all over the book and not there where you would assume it. ToB is really a mess in that regards..

[Gruftzwerg]

Further edit:
I just found this fairly unequivocal answer in the unofficial official errata (which I did not even know was collected) from the Customer Service Sage:

I guess that settles it. If you learn a Maneuver from Martial Study before taking initiator levels, it should be one you will only want to use once/encounter since you can't refresh it

Maybe a Crown of the White Ravens or it's equivalent for the school of the maneuver you want could be of help?
You could get the maneuver early on without refreshment and as soon as you have an initiator class you can reequip it and reassign it to your initiator class.
While you would still have learned it only once, you would get it early on without wasting a feat for it.

If chaotic alignment is ok for you, I would exchange the Martial Study feat against "Flexible Mind".
It gives you access to 2 skills as class skills. And you get an Aura of Chaos for free, nobody should miss how chaotic you are^^ (same as a chaotic cleric).

[RNightstalker]

Martial study, taken without initiator levels, grants the use of one maneuver, once per encounter.

If you later take a level in an initiator class, this does not change the once per encounter use of that Maneuver. You still can't refresh it.

Can you learn that Maneuver again as part of the initiator class, and have the ability to ready that maneuver as part of your initiator class's readied maneuvers (effectively getting two uses of that maneuver before you need to refresh)?

Retrain the feat when you gain the level you want to learn it from the initiator class.