Goal is melee Bard; Hexblade 2/Bard X ideal?

[Optimator]

I'm brewing a character for an upcoming campaign (in pseudo-Ravnica--not that it should matter). Probably starts at level 5. My true goal is to make a Bard that's as good in melee as reasonably possible for a full-caster. Character will probably be the face and support. Likely another arcane caster in the party but not guaranteed. Likely a rogue in the party but not guaranteed. Campaign likely to go to level 10+

My idea is Bard 1/Hexblade 2/Bard X for the SAD, two Invocations, and a few more spells and cantrips. It seems like Valor Bard would be better than Swords but I'm not 100% sold yet. I like the idea of having more ability points to throw into Constitution from a heavier Charisma focus. Might be a (Zendikar) Merfolk, Half-elf, or Human--should be immaterial for the aspects of the build in question though.

Has anyone ever made a character like this and have advice? Is losing two levels of Bard spell advancement worth the Charisma to attacks and the extra invocations and spells/cantrips or am I totally hamstringing my character?

I know I want Misty Visions as one of the Invocations no matter what 100%. Other Invocation is up in the air. Probably Master of Many Faces for increased subterfuge. Eldritch Sight is fantastic too, though. Devil's Sight might be considered too. Seems like most Invocations that help in melee require many more Warlock levels so going for utility seems like the way to go.

Spells known:

Definitely picking up Minor Image. Leaning toward Prestiditation. I'd like one ranged damaging cantrip; Eldritch blast for the range and damage or Vicious Mockery for the debuff. Finally, One of the melee cantrips. Which is the best for a build like this--Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade? Are they redundant or even useless after I get a second attack through Valor Bard?

For 1st level Bard spells I am leaning toward Healing Word, Charm Person, Heroism, and Faerie Fire. Three melee-ish spells and one Bard-y spell.

I have no idea what to choose for my 2nd-level spell. What would be best here? Nothing jumps out as particularly good for melee so perhaps just another utility spell? Suggestion is going to get selected at some point, but am I missing one?

For my two Warlock spells I am leaning toward Hex and Comprehend Languages.

Charm Person and Comprehend Languages are on both lists, so I guess it doesn't matter too much which class chooses it, right?--if I read the multiclass rules correctly (I come from 3.5).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[T.G. Oskar]

It's not bad. It's not amazing, but it's not bad.

Since you're dropping those 2 levels of Bard, considering you estimate the campaign to end at level 10, it means you won't get Magical Secrets and you'll delay access to spells (not to mention you won't get 5th level spells), but since your focus is mostly "melee Bard", Hexblade does more than expected. Since you want high Charisma over anything else, but still want some Dex, might as well get Medium Armor for better AC, and any weapon you prefer, provided it fits the requirements for Hex Warrior.

As for cantrips: get Eldritch Blast and either Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade from the Warlock side, and Vicious Mockery from the Bard side. After that, mostly Prestidigitation, Message or Minor Illusion - they're effective and very versatile. Agonizing Blast is the usual recommendation for any Warlock that gets Eldritch Blast (to deal maximum ranged damage). Regarding Invocations: Devil's Sight is generally great if you have access to Darkness, since the whole idea is to use Darkness as a debuff for the enemies. I'd consider Grasp of Hadar as a cool repositioning move with Eldritch Blast, in case you can't get close to the enemy or you want an ally to get out of the enemy's range in order to move away. For your 2nd level spell choice, you won't go wrong with Invisibility (to add to subterfuge), Hold Person (for some crowd control) or Warding Wind (to annoy archers).

I'd also consider Swords over Valor. Valor becomes insanely good if you reach 14th+ level, because then you get the cast + attack ability, but if you're gonna stay put at 10th level, you'll probably get more mileage out of the Flourishes, though do note that they won't work alongside Booming/Greenflame Blade because you need to use your Attack action. Both Swords and Valor get medium armor and Extra Attack, but at least you get Duelist for some extra damage with every attack if you go College of Swords, and you get the same proficiencies from Hexblade so the choice is either Fighting Style + Blade Flourishes vs. Combat Inspiration (which is more of a buffing ability that doesn't help you personally).

[Corran]

1 level of hexblade will be very helpful indeed, for the shield spell and that extra 1st level spell slot that racharges on a short rest will help you a lot to stay in melee. The CHA sadness is also very much needed for a fullcaster melee gish, because aside from needing both a good mental stat for spells and a good physical stat for attacks, you'll need to grab feats that will help you keep your concentration up (and that's the biggest downside to playing a fullcaster in melee, ie when you level up enough and you'll be able to concentrate on powerful spell, being in melee means that you are risking dropping concentration, which is a big no-no). So, hex warrior will help a lot more than just being SAD on the surface. I'll come back to that in regard to feats.

Since you can grab the SCAG cantrips, there's far less pressure on nabbing the extra attack feature, as the SCAG cantrips have no synergy with it, and they alone are enough for you to be effective offense-wise. Since you also get medium armor and shield proficiency from being a hexblade, I would also looking at choosing a bard subclass that does not double down on it. I am thinking that lore and whispers are you best choices here. Lore is perhaps stronger earlier (definitely more versatile thanks to the additional magical secrets; eg spirit guardians + counterspell/ absorb elements), but I think whispers supports a lot better the choice of playing like a melee gish (thanks to psychic blades) once you level up enough and keep getting better and better uses for your concentration.

You dont really that second level of hexblade. Tactically speaking, the best it can offer is to improve you ranged attacks, which you really dont want to do, at least if you dont want your back up option to be a far better choice than going into melee (and I am not talking damage figures here). But, invocations (like misty visions and mask of many faces; whispers get a similar in nature ability at level 6) are fun, so if you are really sold on one or two of those, you could go for a second level in warlock. Strictly from a combat optimization perspective, I think you are better off not delaying your bard levels any further, so I would stick with 1 level in hexblade if I didn't really plan to count on these 1 or 2 invocations.

I'd start as a hexblade, cause I like wisdom save proficiency more than proficiency in dex saves.

Feats. First of all, you need to have a good base AC if you plan to make good use of the shield spell, that is if you want to be effective defense-wise in melee combat. That means a shield in your off hand. That means you want to take warcaster. But either way, as I said earlier, the worst thing about playing a fullcaster in melee is that you are risking losing concentration (well, the worst thing is that you can die, or at least drop unconscious, but losing concentration on a big spell comes close). So, aside from boosting your AC, you really need to boost your concentration. Aside for warcaster, I would aim at getting a second feat. Now, I think there is a choice here to be made, between getting resilient con or mobile. I think resilient con is the safer choice, although it's also a bit more reactive. Mobile will help you melee it up while (hopefully) keeping some distance, which could translate to making fewer concentration saves among other things. It has also good synergy with BB. I think I'd go with resilient con, but I think mobile is a solid option as well.

[Skylivedk]

LudicSavant's Hexblade 1/ Paladin 2/swords bard X is extremely flexible as a Gish. Either start Paladin or Hexblade. Booming blade will make the delayed extra attack a lot less painful. The Paladin burst allows you to add damage to the control provided by the Bard. You'll be SAD and great out of combat as well.

[Optimator]

It's not bad. It's not amazing, but it's not bad.

Since you're dropping those 2 levels of Bard, considering you estimate the campaign to end at level 10, it means you won't get Magical Secrets and you'll delay access to spells (not to mention you won't get 5th level spells), but since your focus is mostly "melee Bard", Hexblade does more than expected. Since you want high Charisma over anything else, but still want some Dex, might as well get Medium Armor for better AC, and any weapon you prefer, provided it fits the requirements for Hex Warrior.


Haha I dunno about "more than expected"--the benefits of Hexblade 1 are well-known to the community and myself. Losing out on Magical Secrets was something I considered, and it's lamentable. Seems like the ability to choose any spell would be ideal for a gish since the Bard list is somewhat lacking. Definitely the main reason I didn't consider Hexblade level 3 for what it's worth. Not confused about where to allocate my stats though.



As for cantrips: get Eldritch Blast and either Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade from the Warlock side, and Vicious Mockery from the Bard side. After that, mostly Prestidigitation, Message or Minor Illusion - they're effective and very versatile. Agonizing Blast is the usual recommendation for any Warlock that gets Eldritch Blast (to deal maximum ranged damage). Regarding Invocations: Devil's Sight is generally great if you have access to Darkness, since the whole idea is to use Darkness as a debuff for the enemies. I'd consider Grasp of Hadar as a cool repositioning move with Eldritch Blast, in case you can't get close to the enemy or you want an ally to get out of the enemy's range in order to move away. For your 2nd level spell choice, you won't go wrong with Invisibility (to add to subterfuge), Hold Person (for some crowd control) or Warding Wind (to annoy archers).


Not considering Agonizing Blast, and having two ranged cantrips seems redundant. Grasp of Hadar actually was considered but 10 feet didn't seem too impactful but I suppose I could get creative with it and all the rooftops and balconies I'm sure to encounter. Darkness is on the Warlock list but I'd have to dip into level 3 or choose it with Magical Secrets. It is something I thought about though, but it seemed too cute and of dubious usefulness since the radius of Darkness is only 15 feet and the frequency in which I could cast it is low. Seeing 120 feet in darkness is useful regardless though.



I'd also consider Swords over Valor. Valor becomes insanely good if you reach 14th+ level, because then you get the cast + attack ability, but if you're gonna stay put at 10th level, you'll probably get more mileage out of the Flourishes, though do note that they won't work alongside Booming/Greenflame Blade because you need to use your Attack action. Both Swords and Valor get medium armor and Extra Attack, but at least you get Duelist for some extra damage with every attack if you go College of Swords, and you get the same proficiencies from Hexblade so the choice is either Fighting Style + Blade Flourishes vs. Combat Inspiration (which is more of a buffing ability that doesn't help you personally).

Yeah I was (rightly) thinking Battle Magic was the best feature out of everything between Valor and Swords but I probably won't reach it. Leaning more toward Swords now.

[T.G. Oskar]

Not considering Agonizing Blast, and having two ranged cantrips seems redundant. Grasp of Hadar actually was considered but 10 feet didn't seem too impactful but I suppose I could get creative with it and all the rooftops and balconies I'm sure to encounter. Darkness is on the Warlock list but I'd have to dip into level 3 or choose it with Magical Secrets. It is something I thought about though, but it seemed too cute and of dubious usefulness since the radius of Darkness is only 15 feet and the frequency in which I could cast it is low. Seeing 120 feet in darkness is useful regardless though.

Consider that Vicious Mockery, even if it's poor damage, grants a solid debuff against an opponent beyond your melee range. With a high Charisma, it should be hard to hit that AC on those big burly monsters that hit hard, which is where you want that to happen. In any case, having a spell attack-based and a save-based cantrip isn't redundant, but complementary - if you can't hit them but their saves are poor, you can use the other. Plus, it's psychic damage, for when your damage is resisted. All I'm saying is that you can use your Bard cantrip slots for utility (you'll end up with 5 cantrips at level 10), so keep the Warlock slots for 1 melee and 1 ranged cantrip.

As for Grasp of Hadar: yeah, 10 feet doesn't seem like it does a lot, but it's how you use it that matters, particularly since you're using it with Eldritch Blast, which has a superb range and a nice damage output. As I said, you can use it to reposition an enemy away from an ally, and as you mentioned, it can be used to basically pull someone off a balcony or rooftop, but it can also be used to shorten the distance between one enemy and you. Say, have a tough creature be 40 ft. away from you. You could use Eldritch Blast (since you won't arrive with your normal movement speed), bring it 10 feet closer, then close the distance. Sure, the enemy might decide to move away, but then it eats an OA - another source of control you can potentially have, or merely just a nuisance. Alternatively, you can take a tough monster, move diagonally, drag the creature close to you, while the rest of the party moves to the opposite side; this could allow your party to focus on another tough monster while you deal with one of its more dangerous goons on your own or something. The idea is that 10 feet of forced movement on your enemy doesn't sound like much, until you realize it's 10 feet of movement closer to you, and since you're a melee-focused character, you want them to be close. (Besides, it's basically like Scorpion's Spear - you can just utter "Get over here!" and have your table burst out in laughter!)


Yeah I was (rightly) thinking Battle Magic was the best feature out of everything between Valor and Swords but I probably won't reach it. Leaning more toward Swords now.

Again - Battle Magic is great if you can reach it, since it should work with Cantrips and therefore allow you two attacks at once. However, Battle Magic works best if you go for longbows, since you can cast a buffing spell and attack without trouble. Swords has both the Fighting Style AND Battle Flourish, which adds a lot to your potential damage, provided you hog all your Bardic Inspiration uses.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Charm Person and Comprehend Languages are on both lists, so I guess it doesn't matter too much which class chooses it, right?--if I read the multiclass rules correctly (I come from 3.5).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Charm Person is fine from either class. But take Comprehend Languages from Bard. That way, you can cast it as a ritual. If you take it as a Warlock spell, you cannot ritual cast it.

[Optimator]

1 level of hexblade will be very helpful indeed, for the shield spell and that extra 1st level spell slot that racharges on a short rest will help you a lot to stay in melee. The CHA sadness is also very much needed for a fullcaster melee gish, because aside from needing both a good mental stat for spells and a good physical stat for attacks, you'll need to grab feats that will help you keep your concentration up (and that's the biggest downside to playing a fullcaster in melee, ie when you level up enough and you'll be able to concentrate on powerful spell, being in melee means that you are risking dropping concentration, which is a big no-no). So, hex warrior will help a lot more than just being SAD on the surface. I'll come back to that in regard to feats.


Yeah I was thinking about the Con boost from having the ability to focus on Cha when brewing this character initially.




Since you can grab the SCAG cantrips, there's far less pressure on nabbing the extra attack feature, as the SCAG cantrips have no synergy with it, and they alone are enough for you to be effective offense-wise. Since you also get medium armor and shield proficiency from being a hexblade, I would also looking at choosing a bard subclass that does not double down on it. I am thinking that lore and whispers are you best choices here. Lore is perhaps stronger earlier (definitely more versatile thanks to the additional magical secrets; eg spirit guardians + counterspell/ absorb elements), but I think whispers supports a lot better the choice of playing like a melee gish (thanks to psychic blades) once you level up enough and keep getting better and better uses for your concentration.


It seemed like having a maxed-out attack stat in Cha would lend itself to powerful second attacks, which seemed attractive--especially once a magic weapon is acquired. Do cantrips "level up" with overall character level or the level of the class that acquired them? Seemed like a cantrip stuck at level 1 or 2 would be way worse than a second attack. Swords also gives me the Dueling Fighting Style, making the second attack a bit better.

That's a good point about starting as a Hexblade and going into College of Lore. I do love skills... like, a lot... I like having Cutting Words to use my reaction, but that's also used by Shield. The Additional Magical Secrets seems like gas too.

I liked the idea of buffing my melee allies with Valor's Combat Inspiration a lot though. Also, Defensive Flourish from Swords is growing on me. Everything other than Psychic Blades in Whispers seems bad for the concept. The college itself works with the flavor of the character decently but I just don't like any of the abilities after Psychic Blades. Not sure I like Psychic Blades more than Defensive Flourish or Combat Inspiration.




You dont really that second level of hexblade. Tactically speaking, the best it can offer is to improve you ranged attacks, which you really dont want to do, at least if you dont want your back up option to be a far better choice than going into melee (and I am not talking damage figures here). But, invocations (like misty visions and mask of many faces; whispers get a similar in nature ability at level 6) are fun, so if you are really sold on one or two of those, you could go for a second level in warlock. Strictly from a combat optimization perspective, I think you are better off not delaying your bard levels any further, so I would stick with 1 level in hexblade if I didn't really plan to count on these 1 or 2 invocations.

I'd start as a hexblade, cause I like wisdom save proficiency more than proficiency in dex saves.


That was something I thought of late last night after I posted. Dex saves VS Wis saves. My Dex is likely to be higher than Wis so going Warlock first only loses me some instrument proficiency.



Feats. First of all, you need to have a good base AC if you plan to make good use of the shield spell, that is if you want to be effective defense-wise in melee combat. That means a shield in your off hand. That means you want to take warcaster. But either way, as I said earlier, the worst thing about playing a fullcaster in melee is that you are risking losing concentration (well, the worst thing is that you can die, or at least drop unconscious, but losing concentration on a big spell comes close). So, aside from boosting your AC, you really need to boost your concentration. Aside for warcaster, I would aim at getting a second feat. Now, I think there is a choice here to be made, between getting resilient con or mobile. I think resilient con is the safer choice, although it's also a bit more reactive. Mobile will help you melee it up while (hopefully) keeping some distance, which could translate to making fewer concentration saves among other things. It has also good synergy with BB. I think I'd go with resilient con, but I think mobile is a solid option as well.

I had no questions about feats. War Caster is a no-brainer and I was planning on taking it ASAP. Thank you though.

[Optimator]

LudicSavant's Hexblade 1/ Paladin 2/swords bard X is extremely flexible as a Gish. Either start Paladin or Hexblade. Booming blade will make the delayed extra attack a lot less painful. The Paladin burst allows you to add damage to the control provided by the Bard. You'll be SAD and great out of combat as well.

Can't do Paladin for RP reasons. Thank you though.

[Optimator]

Charm Person is fine from either class. But take Comprehend Languages from Bard. That way, you can cast it as a ritual. If you take it as a Warlock spell, you cannot ritual cast it.

Good point!! Thanks!

[Naerytar]

I'm brewing a character for an upcoming campaign (in pseudo-Ravnica--not that it should matter). Probably starts at level 5. My true goal is to make a Bard that's as good in melee as reasonably possible for a full-caster. Character will probably be the face and support. Likely another arcane caster in the party but not guaranteed. Likely a rogue in the party but not guaranteed. Campaign likely to go to level 10+

If you really want to be close to a full-caster, maybe try Fighter(1)/Swords Bard(X). You would only lose one level of spellcasting progression.

You would start with one level of Fighter. This gives you:

Heavy armor, shield and martial weapons proficiency
Fighting Style: Defense
Con saving throw proficiency
Second Wind is a nice-to-have


After that you take three levels of Swords Bard, which gives you:

Fighting Style: Dueling
The ability to use your weapon as an arcane focus (no need for War Caster, although it's obviously still good)
Blade Flourishes


You would wear heavy armor, a shield and a 1d8 one-handed meelee weapon. With Plate armor that's AC 21, so AC 22-27 with Blade Flourishes (22-29 once you get d8 inspiration die). Only one attack for now, but it's effectively a 1d12 weapon due to Fighting Style: Dueling.

You would be a bit MAD, but something like this for a Variant Human could work:

STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

CON 14 isn't too great, but your AC is pretty high, so I don't think HP would be too low.

As for feats: War Caster if you want to use spells that need concentration. Heavy Armor Master maybe. Inspiring Leader maybe. Or just push your ability scores.

If you want to get cute, you could also take one of the most underrated feats: Polearm Master

The Polearm Master/Sentinel combination is obviously well established, but just Polearm Master alone is a fantastic feat. It gives you:

A bonus attack, like two-weapon fighting. Yes, it's only 1d4, but with Fighting Style: Dueling that's effectively a d8. And you have something to do with your bonus action every time you attack. If your bonus action ever goes unused, that's a waste of resources.
Another attack as a reaction, when someone enters your reach. Even if your reach is just 5ft... it's a free attack! Most rounds your reaction goes to waste, but now you have a way to use it. Again, great for action economy.


So Polearm Master turns your one attack per round (until you get Extra Attack) into two or even three attacks per round. That's a VERY significant increase. You would have to take a quarterstaff or a spear as a weapon, which slightly lowers your normal damage, but I think the increase in attack is worth it.


So all in all with this build you have a viable melee character while only losing one level of spellcasting. Hexblade(1)/Paladin(2)/Bard(X) is better in melee, but you lose three times as many levels.

[Optimator]

Consider that Vicious Mockery, even if it's poor damage, grants a solid debuff against an opponent beyond your melee range. With a high Charisma, it should be hard to hit that AC on those big burly monsters that hit hard, which is where you want that to happen. In any case, having a spell attack-based and a save-based cantrip isn't redundant, but complementary - if you can't hit them but their saves are poor, you can use the other. Plus, it's psychic damage, for when your damage is resisted. All I'm saying is that you can use your Bard cantrip slots for utility (you'll end up with 5 cantrips at level 10), so keep the Warlock slots for 1 melee and 1 ranged cantrip.


I know the debuff is solid. That's a good point about learning more utility cantrips later. I'll also probably be in plenty of encounters where I don't want to wade into melee. Do cantrips use overall level or the specific level of the class that learned them to calculate added effects?




As for Grasp of Hadar: yeah, 10 feet doesn't seem like it does a lot, but it's how you use it that matters, particularly since you're using it with Eldritch Blast, which has a superb range and a nice damage output. As I said, you can use it to reposition an enemy away from an ally, and as you mentioned, it can be used to basically pull someone off a balcony or rooftop, but it can also be used to shorten the distance between one enemy and you. Say, have a tough creature be 40 ft. away from you. You could use Eldritch Blast (since you won't arrive with your normal movement speed), bring it 10 feet closer, then close the distance. Sure, the enemy might decide to move away, but then it eats an OA - another source of control you can potentially have, or merely just a nuisance. Alternatively, you can take a tough monster, move diagonally, drag the creature close to you, while the rest of the party moves to the opposite side; this could allow your party to focus on another tough monster while you deal with one of its more dangerous goons on your own or something. The idea is that 10 feet of forced movement on your enemy doesn't sound like much, until you realize it's 10 feet of movement closer to you, and since you're a melee-focused character, you want them to be close. (Besides, it's basically like Scorpion's Spear - you can just utter "Get over here!" and have your table burst out in laughter!)



I definitely thought of Scorpion. You know... from a fun-perspective, Grasp of Hadar would at least be entertaining and engaging at the table. Make it a little minigame to pull as much stuff as possible. Combine that with all the social skills I'd have my way with any encounter.

[OracularPoet]

Skimming through the responses, doesn’t seem anyone mentioned Armor of Agathys from the Warlock dip. Sorry if I missed it.

[T.G. Oskar]

Do cantrips use overall level or the specific level of the class that learned them to calculate added effects?

Character level.

To explain a bit better: cantrips improve based on your character's level (i.e., if you're Bard 3/Warlock 2, you're character level 5). At least, that's what Jeremy Crawford says, and it's pretty unambiguous.

[Optimator]

If you really want to be close to a full-caster, maybe try Fighter(1)/Swords Bard(X). You would only lose one level of spellcasting progression.


Ehhh... I really really don't like the MAD of that build. I can't roleplay a Face with 8 Int. Medium armor loses me 1 AC (2 if I want to sneak, which I very well may) but ideally the Shield spell and potentially Defensive Flourish make up for that. Feels to me the utility of Warlock spells, focusing on Cha, and the Invocations more than makes up for 1 or 2 AC.

Also, wouldn't the melee cantrips blow Polearm Master out of the water? I don't imagine this character with a glaive. Quarterstaff maybe. I was leaning toward using a shield for survivability as a d8-having caster.

[Optimator]

Character level.


Ah, good! That makes Eldritch Blast (and Agonizing Blast) a lot better. I played 3.0 and 3.5 heavily for 19 years so that idea just feels foreign to me.

[Optimator]

Skimming through the responses, doesn’t seem anyone mentioned Armor of Agathys from the Warlock dip. Sorry if I missed it.

Didn't know about that spell! Seems on-theme but will get obsolete fast. Faster than Heroism, and that can get replaced later. Would be worth a strong consideration if I was starting at a lower level.

[Naerytar]

Ehhh... I really really don't like the MAD of that build. I can't roleplay a Face with 8 Int. Medium armor loses me 1 AC (2 if I want to sneak, which I very well may) but ideally the Shield spell and potentially Defensive Flourish make up for that. Feels to me the utility of Warlock spells, focusing on Cha, and the Invocations more than makes up for 1 or 2 AC.

Also, wouldn't the melee cantrips blow Polearm Master out of the water? I don't imagine this character with a glaive. Quarterstaff maybe. I was leaning toward using a shield for survivability as a d8-having caster.

Yeah, if low INT is a dealbreaker, that build will not work. In that case Hexblade is pretty much your only option.
You do lose 2-3 AC though, because you don't get Fighting Style Defense. Also Shield uses resources while plain AC doesn't. Either way, I think both heavy armor or medium armor + Shield will work.

The melee cantrips are a mixed bag. Assuming Hexblade with CHA 18 at level 5:

Green-Flame Blade:
- adds 4.5 dmg to your main attacks
- plus 8.5 dmg if there is another target within 5ft.

Polearm Master:
- adds 8.5 dmg if your bonus attack hits (2.5 weapon + 2 dueling style + 4 CHA)
- plus 9.5 dmg if your reaction triggers and hits (3.5 weapon + 2 dueling style + 4 CHA)

I think PM is already better, but it's debatable. The thing that really makes a difference: PM is compatible with Extra Attack, while GFB and BB are not.
IMO the melee cantrips are only really useful for Sorcerers who never get Extra attack and can twin and quicken them.

[OracularPoet]

Didn't know about that spell! Seems on-theme but will get obsolete fast. Faster than Heroism, and that can get replaced later. Would be worth a strong consideration if I was starting at a lower level.

It scales well when up-casting, especially if you can get damage resistance in some way.

Typical warlock example: slots automatically scale to level 5 so eventually you’re always casting it at that level. Gives you 25 temp HP and until they go away, every hit against you deals 25 cold damage to the one who hit you.

Given that 8th level spells are typically underwhelming, you could upcast it to 40 temp HP with 40 damage retribution for every hit. Granted, if you’re planning to go level 10 you’d only get 5th level slots, and only if you took a single level of warlock.

[Optimator]

It scales well when up-casting, especially if you can get damage resistance in some way.

Typical warlock example: slots automatically scale to level 5 so eventually you’re always casting it at that level. Gives you 25 temp HP and until they go away, every hit against you deals 25 cold damage to the one who hit you.

Given that 8th level spells are typically underwhelming, you could upcast it to 40 temp HP with 40 damage retribution for every hit. Granted, if you’re planning to go level 10 you’d only get 5th level slots, and only if you took a single level of warlock.

I would have to cast it with Bard spell slots and it seemed like a waste compared to higher-level Bard spells. It's certainly not bad.

[GigaGuess]

My 2 cents:

It can potentially be amazing as a defensive build. Defensive Flourish and Shield can potentially give you absurd AC, if just for a round. Add to that the aforementioned Armor of Agathys and you can stand up to a lot of scary stuff. You're missing out on Magical Secrets, that is true, but this is far from unworkable.

[Keravath]

A couple comments ...

1) Having played a 2 hexblade/lore bard X to level 16 (so far) ... the debuff on vicious mockery is not "solid". It does minimal damage, save for none and the debuff affects one attack. This makes it marginally useful in tier 1 when the number of creatures with multi-attack is fairly small and situational at higher tiers. However, at higher levels you tend to fight creatures with multi-attack as well as multiple creatures and causing disadvantage on one attack for 2d4 (average 5 damage) IF they fail the save feels pretty useless. Compare this with agonizing blast at level 5 which is an average of 19 damage (assuming 18 charisma). Using the philosophy that the best opponent is a dead one ... agonizing blast wins hands down. However, agonizing blast is only what you are doing while concentrating on something more useful. Single target control, multitarget control (eg hypnotic pattern - at level 7 with the multiclass) or suggestion/phantasmal force and others.

Vicious mockery, in my experience, just doesn't stand up in the long run.

2) I know someone who played a 2 hexblade/swords bard X into tier 3 and it seemed both effective and fun. Extra attack was delayed until level 8 but they also had eldritch blast as a fallback. In one tier 3 fight we were facing a skeletal dragon and a dracolich, the paladin was trying to keep its attention while the bards were whittling it down with agonizing blast. The dracolich has a lot of resistances.

[GigaGuess]

2) I know someone who played a 2 hexblade/swords bard X into tier 3 and it seemed both effective and fun. Extra attack was delayed until level 8 but they also had eldritch blast as a fallback. In one tier 3 fight we were facing a skeletal dragon and a dracolich, the paladin was trying to keep its attention while the bards were whittling it down with agonizing blast. The dracolich has a lot of resistances.

This is one of the things I like about this build, too. There's no safe zone with you. Enemy runs/flies? Eldritch Blast his ass. Enemy gets in your face? Flourishes, Shield, AoA...

[DarknessEternal]

Sorcerer would be better than Bard at everything you're trying to do with Bard.

Twin Spell alone beats the entire Bard class when it comes to support.

I played Hexblade/Bard in my previous campaign and it was so disgustingly under powered that the DM let me change the Bard to Sorcerer.

[McSkrag]

A couple comments ...

1) Having played a 2 hexblade/lore bard X to level 16 (so far) ... SNIP
2) I know someone who played a 2 hexblade/swords bard X into tier 3 and it seemed both effective and fun. SNIP

I am thinking about some playing some sort of Hexblade / Bard build for an upcoming campaign. I'd love to hear more details about your experience seeing these in action.

[Alexwellace]

I've played a Hexblade 2 - Sword Bard X up to level 12. My stats were pretty bad, so being SAD was very important and without those 2 levels of Hexblade I simply couldn't have done what I wanted to do. We started at level 5, so I started 1 Hex 4 Sword, jumped up to Sword 6 for extra attack before getting that second level in Hex. 2nd Hex isn't actually needed, but invocations are cool.

I wouldn't have wanted to play this *not* starting at level 5. levels 1-3 would be pretty sad and not the concept, just eldrich blasting things. When you reach 4 this is when things actually begin, as a SAD Sword Bard.

The most fun things about the build?
1) It's very short-rest dependant. When you reach level 8, Hex 2:Sword 6, you get your flourishes and 2 spell slots back on a short rest. That's enough for 4 flourishes and a Hex and an emergancy Shield spell. That's enough for any fight.

2) The AC manipulation available from Shield spell cast from Warlock and Bard 1st level slots (which you have a lot of) as well as Defensive flourish adding d8 to your AC. So maximum of +13 to your AC for a turn. You can be a dodge tank for a limited amount of turns, and it really makes you feel untouchable. Add this to casting armour of agathys with your high level bard slots...yeah it's very very fun for a gish, with less magic in melee and more melee augmented by magic.

[GigaGuess]

I've played a Hexblade 2 - Sword Bard X up to level 12. My stats were pretty bad, so being SAD was very important and without those 2 levels of Hexblade I simply couldn't have done what I wanted to do. We started at level 5, so I started 1 Hex 4 Sword, jumped up to Sword 6 for extra attack before getting that second level in Hex. 2nd Hex isn't actually needed, but invocations are cool.

I wouldn't have wanted to play this *not* starting at level 5. levels 1-3 would be pretty sad and not the concept, just eldrich blasting things. When you reach 4 this is when things actually begin, as a SAD Sword Bard.

The most fun things about the build?
1) It's very short-rest dependant. When you reach level 8, Hex 2:Sword 6, you get your flourishes and 2 spell slots back on a short rest. That's enough for 4 flourishes and a Hex and an emergancy Shield spell. That's enough for any fight.

2) The AC manipulation available from Shield spell cast from Warlock and Bard 1st level slots (which you have a lot of) as well as Defensive flourish adding d8 to your AC. So maximum of +13 to your AC for a turn. You can be a dodge tank for a limited amount of turns, and it really makes you feel untouchable. Add this to casting armour of agathys with your high level bard slots...yeah it's very very fun for a gish, with less magic in melee and more melee augmented by magic.

This is my experience to. The build generally pans out to "good luck hitting me, and if you do, you're gonna regret it."

That said, personally I'm going Hex 3/Bard X to get my Pact Boon, too, but that's just me.

[Optimator]

Sorcerer would be better than Bard at everything you're trying to do with Bard.

Twin Spell alone beats the entire Bard class when it comes to support.

I played Hexblade/Bard in my previous campaign and it was so disgustingly under powered that the DM let me change the Bard to Sorcerer.

That's sad to hear. Not everyone here seems to agree with you but I can see where you're coming from. My goal is explicitly to be a Bard though. I'm curious; what was underpowered? What would be different if you went straight Bard? Is it the lack of melee-focused spells? Is it the delay in progression?

[Dork_Forge]

That's sad to hear. Not everyone here seems to agree with you but I can see where you're coming from. My goal is explicitly to be a Bard though. I'm curious; what was underpowered? What would be different if you went straight Bard? Is it the lack of melee-focused spells? Is it the delay in progression?

The only real palpable difference is flexible casting and metamagic, they seem to value metamagic a lot so may have seen it as underpowered, swapping to Sorcerer shouldn't have made a dramatic difference unless it was Divine Soul for the Cleric spells.

Bard is better in a few ways for what you want, especially if you went Swords: more hp, Fighting Style, Flourishes and the option to be a pretty great support to your party at the same time.

[Optimator]

Also, I have no illusions about being the primary tank or damage dealer. The goal here was to be a versatile sixth-man that was a Bard and could wade into melee if desired or when out of spells--which seems to be quite common in 5th edition.

[GigaGuess]

Also, I have no illusions about being the primary tank or damage dealer. The goal here was to be a versatile sixth-man that was a Bard and could wade into melee if desired or when out of spells--which seems to be quite common in 5th edition.

Oh to be sure, that is pretty much how this build shines. It takes the Bard's versatility and just takes it through the roof.

[Keravath]

I am thinking about some playing some sort of Hexblade / Bard build for an upcoming campaign. I'd love to hear more details about your experience seeing these in action.

I've played a hexblade 2/lore bard X to level 16 and have never regretted the 2 levels of hexblade. Level 6 was a bit challenging but other than that I never had any issues with it. (Level 6 was challenging since I started with taking 2 warlock/3 lore bard to level 5 to get the multiclassing element over with and because it fit the character back story best).

I started variant human, point buy and took the resilient constitution feat. Boosted charisma at levels 4 and 8 and took Agonizing blast and Devil's sight for invocations which gave my human character the ability to see in the dark. Medium armor, shields, the shield spell gives the character really good AC.

Agonizing blast has been extremely useful since on turns when I am not casting a spell, I can do decent damage that scales with character level and remains competitive with base melee classes though it falls behind optimized builds with PAM/GWM or CBE/SS. However, since damage is just icing for the character it doesn't really matter. When needed he can also throw hex on the target if there isn't something better to concentrate on to maximize ranged damage.

The rest of the time the character has a great selection of party support, crowd control and damage spells. Magical secrets for a lore bard gives so many good options that it is difficult to choose. I picked fireball/counterspell at level 6 then Circle of power/wall of force at level 10 though there are many good choices (find greater steed for example).

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I've played a few sessions with another player with a 2 hexblade/swords bard who did very well in melee and used agonizing blast as an effective ranged fallback. With the flourishes the character could have an exceptionally high AC and had quite a bit of versatility with the other flourishes while still being a full spell caster.

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One reason to limit the build to just two levels of warlock is in case you think the character will ever reach level 20. The level 18 bard magical secrets allows the bard to choose any two spells in the game including Wish which can be a decent capstone. On the other hand, you get to play with the warlock pact boon for a lot more levels.

[Optimator]

I've played a hexblade 2/lore bard X to level 16 and have never regretted the 2 levels of hexblade. Level 6 was a bit challenging but other than that I never had any issues with it. (Level 6 was challenging since I started with taking 2 warlock/3 lore bard to level 5 to get the multiclassing element over with and because it fit the character back story best).

I started variant human, point buy and took the resilient constitution feat. Boosted charisma at levels 4 and 8 and took Agonizing blast and Devil's sight for invocations which gave my human character the ability to see in the dark. Medium armor, shields, the shield spell gives the character really good AC.

Agonizing blast has been extremely useful since on turns when I am not casting a spell, I can do decent damage that scales with character level and remains competitive with base melee classes though it falls behind optimized builds with PAM/GWM or CBE/SS. However, since damage is just icing for the character it doesn't really matter. When needed he can also throw hex on the target if there isn't something better to concentrate on to maximize ranged damage.

The rest of the time the character has a great selection of party support, crowd control and damage spells. Magical secrets for a lore bard gives so many good options that it is difficult to choose. I picked fireball/counterspell at level 6 then Circle of power/wall of force at level 10 though there are many good choices (find greater steed for example).

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I've played a few sessions with another player with a 2 hexblade/swords bard who did very well in melee and used agonizing blast as an effective ranged fallback. With the flourishes the character could have an exceptionally high AC and had quite a bit of versatility with the other flourishes while still being a full spell caster.

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One reason to limit the build to just two levels of warlock is in case you think the character will ever reach level 20. The level 18 bard magical secrets allows the bard to choose any two spells in the game including Wish which can be a decent capstone. On the other hand, you get to play with the warlock pact boon for a lot more levels.

Thanks for the info! My original pre-research idea was to be a self-buffing gish but it seems it's not quite possible with the majority of the Bard spell list (or in 5th edition at all with Concentration spells and fewer spell slots), so I may end up doing much the same crowd-control and utility casting. I'm considering Lore Bard more and more since the Magical Secrets can snag some better buffs. I'm fairly dead-set on Bard though, so it's good to know the build is at least playable.