PoW Warlord Build Advice

[Firechanter]

Aight guys. So far my practical experiences with PoW classes have been rather limited, but positive so far. I played a Viking-Style Sword&Board Warlord - the kind that has only been made possible by Prodigious TWF - but only at low levels; and a Zweihander Sentinel Warder, which I'd call "easy to play".

Now however I need a character like that Sentinel, but he needs to be CHA-based, for party/campaign reasons. So basically something that functions like a Paladin. Strong melee, good self-healing, strong vs Magic. Big two-handed weapon, No-Dachi or Polearm. Key discipline is gonna be Silver Crane. I've got the cornerstones of the build and the maneuver progression all lined up already, there's just one problem:
STR or DEX build?

I love the damage output of Str-based TH fighting. The nice juicy Str and PA bonuses. However, the Warlord only has Medium Armor prof and that makes him either very MAD or very glass-cannony. Or I could spend a feat / MC to pick up Heavy Armour prof, but this kinda annoys me as I like to think classes are equipped with the proficiencies that work best for them.

Going DEX otoh seems to be very lacking in the damage department. Polearm Dancer allows to _attack_ with Dex but does nothing for damage. I am not aware of any other feats that help here -- Slashing Grace is only for one-handed weapons and Piranha Strike works explicitly only with light weapons. An aspect that, btw, the "official" Warlord guide gets wrong.

Also, most of the defensive maneuvers are keyed to a WIS skill, so I can't even dump Wis to free up points for Str/Dex/Cha, not to mention Con.

The stances and maneuvers I've planned out up to level 14 ("X" denotes maneuvers that get swapped out for others with the same index):
Stances
1 Silver Crane Waltz
2 [free]
5 Broken Blade Stance (BB)
9 Crane Knight Stance (SC)
11 Stance of the Thunderbrand (PT)

Maneuvers
1 Oaken Shield (PT), Flurry Strike (BB,X2), Enduring Crane Strike (SC,X1), 4/6
Scything Strike (ST,X3), Iron Shard Strike (BB), Leaping Dragon (TD,X4)
Wyrm Fang (TD,X5)
2 Defensive Step (SC), Hastened Leap (PT, X2) 6/8
3 Silver Knight's Blade (SC), Ancient's Fang(X5) 7/9
4 Sanguine Perseverance (ST), Silver Crane's Leap (SC,X1) 8/10
Iron Knuckle[Feat], **** [Feat]
5 Sanguine Perfection (ST), Scarlet Riposte (ST,X3)
6 Tail Slap (TD), Argent King's Scepter (SC,X1) 9/12
7 Spinning Flurry Rush (BB), Ruby Battle Lord's Strike (ST,X4)

So, suggestions? ^^

[Elricaltovilla]

You combine Polearm Dancer with Deadly Agility (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/feats/deadly-agility-combat/) to get DEX to damage with polearms.

[Ramza00]

Nothing wrong with the Warlord.

But Zealot but also Rajah / Batal are also Charisma based 9th level Maneuver classes from Path of War series (Path of War Expanded, and Divergent Paths.)

Just a reminder those two other classes exist for I love them as well. :smalltongue:

[Firechanter]

Ah, right, that one slipped my mind. ^^
Still no way to trade Atk for Dmg without Power Attack though, is there?

Ofc for a Combat Reflexes build it would be attractive either way.
So, maybe a stat array like Str 13, Dex 16+2, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16, so I can still take Power Attack.

If I don't go for a Reach weapon, picking up Heavy Armor and going the conventional route seems cheaper. Maybe just take a few levels of Paladin for goodies and added Cha synergy.

As for Zealot (and the other Pow:E classes), I have to say I kinda hate the fluff. This virtually desparate attempt to find a somewhat unique niche. Matter of taste I guess.

[Elricaltovilla]

Why does the character need to be CHA based? Have you considered any of the PoW archetypes for non-initiators? The paladin one is CHA based and solid defensively with native access to Silver Crane.

[Firechanter]

Short answer: Face skills, UMD and RP reasons. I know I could divert some of those Cha skills to Int via traits, but that would block my trait slots and still not be enough to cover all bases.

I did in fact consider the Pal archetype, but it swaps out basically everything worthwhile except Divine Grace and -Courage, even Smite Evil. Might still consider it if I choose to just dip Pal, but off the bat I'm not sold.

Another thing: the maneuvers I listed in the entry post are from 5 disciplines: Broken Blade, Piercing Thunder, Scarlet Throne, Silver Crane and Thrashing Dragon. As far as I know, you can swap out 2 disciplines total -- one per trait, one per martial tradition. As far as I can see this selection as-is can only be achieved with Warlord, so if I pick a different class, I need to rework the maneuver selection again. Not a total dealbreaker but I do need Broken Blade, Scarlet Throne and Silver Crane for my concept; the other two could be substituted.

P.S. btw Elric, are you aware that there are some errors in your PoW guides?

[Elricaltovilla]

You could play Ordained Defender (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Ordained_Defender?mobile-app=false) Zweihander Sentinel (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Zweihander_Sentinel) Warder (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Warder).

If you take the Conversion Inquisition (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/inquisitions/inquistions-paizo/conversion-inquisition), you can run all your socials off of WIS without wasting a trait. You'll get free access to Silver Crane, Piercing Thunder, Scarlet Throne, Golden Lion, Primal Fury, and Iron Tortoise disciplines. Then you just have to trait in Broken Blade.

I would recommend skipping Thrashing Dragon unless you are Two-Weapon-Fighting. Without investment in that feat chain (which you really don't want to do, given your stated goals) it simply isn't worth it. Usually you only really have room for 3 disciplines worth of maneuvers, otherwise you end up spreading yourself too thin.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I don't see what's wrong with the Rajah as a "paladin"/face initiator? You get healing, ally protection, amazing face skills and a cadre of magic servants to help you schmooze between fights. It can also give you a *portable magic mart* which is nuts!

[Firechanter]

Dammit, was in the middle of writing a reply last night when my computer crashed.

@DrDino: that's nice, but not what I am looking for in a melee beatstick. ^^

@Elric:
So, a Wis-based adept. Hm, that's interesting, certainly helps with a number of those defensive maneuvers. The downside is I'd lose out on UMD (or it would become reliable very late). Haven't played a Wis-based character in years; normally my toons are either Int or Cha based. ^^ Well I'll think about it.

The discipline selection looks excellent, though. I'd just swap out Iron Tortoise for BB and be golden.

As for "spreading yourself too thin" -- well in my planned maneuver progression (see above) I managed to wiggle in everything up to level 7 maneuvers. Skills may need double checking. Haven't really looked at level 8, would have to check if I'm missing out on any prereqs.
The level 9 ones are all rather disappointing; I'd actually think about multiclassing out if the campaign ever went that long.
IMHO the only level 9 maneuvers that are worth it are Black Seraph, Riven Hourglass and Veiled Moon, and that would be a different character entirely.
If I was the GM, I'd probably buff the other level 9 moves to make them attractive.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think you are mistaken with regards to how powerful the majority of disciplines' 8th and 9th level maneuvers are, but I am not going to press the issue.

As for UMD, it can be gotten as a class skill with the trait dangerously curious (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/dangerously-curious/) and with a +2 masterwork item of UMD you are sitting at +6 before skill or stat investment. Most of the points for UMD can be made up with a few relatively cheap items and your standard skill allocation. Depending on what you need UMD for, you are unlikely to need higher than a +20 bonus, which can be gotten well before level 10.

[Firechanter]

Well, basically I am shooting for a +19 UMD mod to reliably activate wands (plural, so a single wand key ring doesn't help much). I might get the tool (+2 circumstance), a magic item (+5 competence), with the trait that adds up to +11, so at this point I would need 8 ranks. An alternative might be to get a Familiar, but that requires investing resources as well. Although it might be interesting in terms of action economy.

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By all means, let's talk about level 9 maneuvers. ^^ If I'm mistaken or missing anything, I'm always willing to reevaluate. Haven't played PoW to high levels yet, mind you. But I'm pretty sure there are some _very_ different leagues these maneuvers play in. So here's my theoretical assessment, in the usual colour-coding:

Bla 9: Black Seraph Onslaught. Alright, this one's fantastic, too bad it's locked into the Evil discipline. The extra attack is fine, the bonus damage is okay, but the real winner is rendering the target Nauseated, which is pretty much as bad as Dazed - and no save against it, either. This maneuver is insta-win.

Bro 9: Storm of Iron Fists. Full Attack, +4d6 bonus damage, ignores DR. Then forces a Fort Save-or-Die, with each successful attack increasing the Save DC. So this can be pretty good if you have a lot of attacks, e.g. per TWF. Personally, I think if your target still stands after you hit it with a Full Attack at level 17+, you're doing something wrong.

Ele 9: Strike of Elemental Devastation. 150 dmg total, can be focused or split, and 4 Save-or-Suck rider effects. The law of iterative probabilities says that odds are good the enemy will fail a save eventually, so this is about 4 times better than all the maneuvers that only trigger one save. Also, rated Blue for lack of competition.

Gol 9: Lord of the Pridelands. Ideal if you have (at least) 4 allies. Lackluster for smaller groups. (Might warrant two different colour ratings)

Iro 9: Invulnerable Shield Blablabla. Counter. Okay, a Counter as capstone is weird but kinda fitting for this discipline. What's problematic is that the duration isn't clear. The fluff text talks about "any and all incoming attacks", which suggests a duration until your next turn, but the rules part mentions nothing of the sort. If this only applies to a single enemy's attack(s), this is not worth it. The Green rating assumes that it lasts up to your next turn, but that still means the enemies can delay or ready their actions.

Pie 9: Piercing Charge of the Dread Lancer. You turn into a Line, and deal Charge damage +15d6 (Ref halves the bonus damage) to everything in your path. That's actually not bad if you optimized your Charge game, and certainly fun to watch. The downside of course is that it's contingent on the enemies lining up conveniently for you to charge through them.

Pri 9: Charge of the Primal Hunter. Oh come on Primal Fury, you don't try at all! Pounce and a bit of bonus damage? That's basically a level 2 maneuver and a boost!

Riv 9: Break the Hourglass. So, basically an entire extra turn (sans the Swift) as an Immediate Action. This is so good I am running out of colours in the visible spectrum, so let's call this maneuver's rating Ultra-Violet.

Sca 9: Heavenly Blade of the Scarlet Throne. Oh, if only the Guide's description was correct, then this might be the best level 9 maneuver in the game. But alas, that's not the case, so let's correct that error. We're talking level 17+, so +100dmg are actually rather lousy. The rider is a Will save which makes it negotiable, but the save negates fully. If a failed save still resulted in some Daze or Stun, this would be really good.

Sil 9: Strike of Silver Exorcism. Alright, this is very situational. The basic mode is lame, +80dmg is not worth it. But against Undead or Evil Outsiders, it becomes much better. The bonus damage (just +120, not +180 as The Guide claims) still isn't fantastic, but the rider is a strong debuff that should help you take down the nastiest boss before it can do any more harm. Rating is Green just because those creature groups are pretty frequent candidates for late-game opponents and final bosses. If you know that won't be the case in your game, it drops a lot.

Thr 9: Deadly Dragon Strike. Triggering two Save or Dies is better than one, but you have to be TWFing. Over all I'm not convinced.

Vei 9: Banish to the Beyond. Alright, this is practically a guaranteed campaign ender. Nothing can save the victim from being shunted to the Astral Plane for at least one minute, which means the attacker and her allies can do whatever to the physical body, and that's that.

--

So, there's a pretty wide mix, every colour in the rating spectrum. Concerning the disciplines open to me, for a level 9 capstone maneuver, I'd hope for something better than "green".

[Ramza00]

Fools Errand 9th level maneuver and the 8th level stance are practically as good as you can get, being the versatile martial equivalent of wish / miracle spells.

Proof of Victory, 9th level allows you to emulate any 7th level maneuver of any discipline, or any 8th level maneuver that belongs to a discipline you know even if you do not know the maneuver. Oh yeah your save dc is of a 9th level maneuver.

Lesson VI: Supremacy is an 8th level stance that allows you to emulate any 7th level or lower stance plus it gives you all these lock benefits as well.

So yeah Fools Errand is awesome at HD 15 and HD 17. Only thing better is getting allies casting 9th level spells, or planar allies / gates. Get someone to keep on using the maneuver gift of time onto you (them sacrificing their actions to give you more actions) and go to town casting maneuvers, recover them, do it again with unlimited endurance beside things like hit points, saves, etc. Power, Versatility, and Endurance all avalaible at HD 17.

[Firechanter]

That sure opens up awesome flexibility, but I'm afraid that source is not on the cards at our table. It took me long enough to get PoW and :E approved, being 3PP and all.

[Elricaltovilla]

A cracked Magenta Prism Ioun Stone (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/magenta-prism/) is only 800 go and provides a +2 competence bonus to any one skill.

Circlet of persuasion gets you a +3 bonus to all charisma based skills.

Skill focus nets you another +3/+6, and magical aptitude will get you +2/+4. They are feats, but you can probably spare room for them in your build.

Have a friend boost your check with Aid Another for a +2 (or more depending on their build) bonus. Same with any spells that they might be willing to cast on you that do the same.

Hitting 20 for UMD (or 19, more accurately) is not terribly difficult.

[Ramza00]

That sure opens up awesome flexibility, but I'm afraid that source is not on the cards at our table. It took me long enough to get PoW and :E approved, being 3PP and all.

I understand and I share your grief, but you can always try it. Dreamscarred Press made Fool's Errand as well, just like they did PoW and PoW:E. The counter-argument is Fools Errand is done by a different author than PoW and PoW:E, Forrest Heck which cut his teeth on a dozen other dreamscarred books since 2016.

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Have fun, I am sorry if I am only suggesting things that are not on your radar or do not interest you. I am trying :smallsmile:

[Firechanter]

Actually, I'll try and get the Fool's Errand school approved at least. I adds that kind of flexibility that I'm missing in the general ToB/PoW concept.

As for the main matter at hand, functionally the advice to go Sentinel/Ordained Champion is fine, I just need to figure out how to roleplay such a character. ^^

[Eldaran]

A cracked Magenta Prism Ioun Stone (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/magenta-prism/) is only 800 go and provides a +2 competence bonus to any one skill.

Circlet of persuasion gets you a +3 bonus to all charisma based skills.

Skill focus nets you another +3/+6, and magical aptitude will get you +2/+4. They are feats, but you can probably spare room for them in your build.

Have a friend boost your check with Aid Another for a +2 (or more depending on their build) bonus. Same with any spells that they might be willing to cast on you that do the same.

Hitting 20 for UMD (or 19, more accurately) is not terribly difficult.

Can't aid another with UMD, and the Circlet and Ioun Stone are both competence bonuses.

[Elricaltovilla]

Can't aid another with UMD, and the Circlet and Ioun Stone are both competence bonuses.

Circlet of persuasion is a +3 bonus to charisma checks, not charisma skills, so it will actually stack with the Ioun Stone which is a bonus to a skill check.*

I'll grant you the aid another thing though. I have always played it as being allowed and never thought to check if that was a houserule or not.

*EDIT: This was how it was when I was writing for PoW:E. I'm not sure if there's been any errata to change this little quirk of the stacking rules since then.