so.. how do I make ice?

[dehro]

Simulacrum requires a whole lot of ice or snow.
Given how the campaign I play in has us currently crawling through a lava riddled underground setting, if I want to use the spell anytime soon, I have to come up with a way to create snow or ice..and I'm having a brainfart as to how to do that other than leaving and coming back, which for in game reasons (and lack of resources) isn't really a possibility.
The closest thing I can think of is to create a cold storage room in Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, but if I use ice stored in there to create a simulacrum of myself, the second he steps out of the mansion he probably turns into a puddle and disappears.
Can I prestidigitate a bathtub worth of water into ice, or is that stretching the limits of "chill" too far?
it looks like nothing else in my spellbook is capable of making ice, and researching new spells or finding other spells is just not possible at the moment...

[JellyPooga]

4E Monk : "I heard you need some ice..?"

[JackPhoenix]

Shape Water can turn water into ice. It'll only last for an hour, though, so you'll need another caster to keep it there while you're casting.

But technically, as ice doesn't have listed cost and isn't consumed, unlike the ruby dust, you can replace it with arcane focus. Your GM may reasonably decide it doesn't make sense, though.

[Deathtongue]

Funnily enough, I devoted an entire section of my guide to this question.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O6vBhvie18hFDmnom5lMv3zTj1nYUkvC8UxH0ngZWXQ/edit#heading=h.veig8waabh07

The easiest way to get permanent ice is to combine the magic of enthalpy and the temporary ice from your Shape Water spell. I also have some other contingencies in case your DM says that the mechanics that make ice cream in the real world doesn't work to create ice in D&D, but if your DM is willing to deny simple physics to stop you from casting that spell (rather than just banning it outright) you should be wary of using Simulacrum to begin with. Or playing with that DM, for that matter.

[Grey Watcher]

... but if I use ice stored in there to create a simulacrum of myself, the second he steps out of the mansion he probably turns into a puddle and disappears. ...

But once the simulacrum is complete, it has (they have?) only the vulnerabilities of the the creature it's based on. So, despite being made of ice and snow, the magic makes it no more prone to melting than the real you (at least until it runs out of HP).

[dehro]

But once the simulacrum is complete, it has (they have?) only the vulnerabilities of the the creature it's based on. So, despite being made of ice and snow, the magic makes it no more prone to melting than the real you (at least until it runs out of HP).

the point is that the things, materials and such that are made in the mansion disappear if brought outside. since he would be entirely made of stuff found in the mansion, I expect that to happen to him.
anyway, the point is moot, because the spell description makes a point of stating that the interior of the mansion is warm....

[Aussiehams]

Seduce an ancient white Dragon.

[Vogie]

Wall of Water + ray of frost. You can produce 300 square feet of ice (30 ft log, 10 ft wide, 1 ft wide), for a single 3rd level spell slot.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Wall of Water + ray of frost. You can produce 300 square feet of ice (30 ft log, 10 ft wide, 1 ft wide), for a single 3rd level spell slot.

Why not wall of ice?


Shape Water can turn water into ice. It'll only last for an hour, though, so you'll need another caster to keep it there while you're casting.

But technically, as ice doesn't have listed cost and isn't consumed, unlike the ruby dust, you can replace it with arcane focus. Your GM may reasonably decide it doesn't make sense, though.

So you have all the ice you need in you component pouch. This is a really big pouch.
The target body parts should also be in the pouch.

I find it really amusing :)

[ImproperJustice]

4E Monk : "I heard you need some ice..?"

Seriously. 1 cubic ft. of ice per 6 seconds.
Let em go nuts.

[Eldariel]

Wall spells don't last long enough. Neither of them is permanent. Creating permanent ice takes some effort (I guess Prestidigitation should be able to once you just lower the temperature of water enough, but getting enough ice that way would be a lot of effort especially in a warm environment; especially since freezing releases energy and thus leads to partial unfreezing). An option that doesn't rely on cantrips you probably don't have access to anyways:
- Conjure Minor Elementals can summon Ice Mephits
- Planar Binding can keep them around for a long time
- Just get water from somewhere (you need to drink so you probably have some source available; if not, conjuring a water elemental ought to be able to produce some - or Magic Jar into a Kraken Priest/whatever to get access to the ability)
- Have the Ice Mephits breathe the water frozen. You should have more than enough time to freeze an arbitrary amount this way (you can get 4 with CME, or 8 with a 6th level CME).


But Magnificent Mansion should work just fine. Once the Simulacrum is complete, it's a creature. It doesn't have a melting clause. It's "made" of snow, yes, but it's no longer snow. It's a creature and only dies due to damage/some such.

[Deathtongue]

Alternatively, since the human body is about 15 gallons of water if everything inside was converted to a water equivalent and you can create up to 2 5-foot cubes of water with Shape Water, you could instead just create a chest of pure ice, dye it, and then pour your more permanent water inside of it. Thanks to the magic of the Enthalpy of Condensation, you'll have enough ice to create a simulacrum of yourself or a party member in a couple of hours, tops. Ice is a very good insulator, too, so you can do this in hot places like the middle of the rainforest or the desert as well.

[Chronos]

Ice Storm creates hail, and it's instantaneous, so presumably the hail is thereafter normal ice (it stops causing difficult terrain after one round, but that could just be because it rolls away).

[Lupine]

Seduce an ancient white Dragon.

You’re THAT player, aren’t you.

Op, don’t be that player.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You’re THAT player, aren’t you.

Op, don’t be that player.

That just sounds like an original solution.
It may be hard to pull but can happen.

[Joe the Rat]

One could wait for winter. I know, not very proactive.

If you're dipping into that sort of folklore, you might want to live near a glacier.

Does it have to be pure snow/ice, our would a village-worth of cone of cold corpses be sufficient?

[dehro]

That just sounds like an original solution.
It may be hard to pull but can happen.

to be fair, if I was able to pull a dragon, I probably wouldn't need a simulacrum in the first place.
sorrynotsorry:smallbiggrin:


the DM and I have agreed on ruling out the Mansion because it explicitly states that the temperature is warm throughout, which excludes making, say, a cold storage unit. It turns out that I do have access, if not immediate, to a teleportation ring not too far away from a glacier, so I might just toss around some coin and order me some ice cubes from there.
that said, I am enjoying reading your ideas a lot.

[Lunali]

You don't need ice, you need water, you can use the cold storage in the mansion to make it into ice as it will still be material from outside the mansion, water is far easier to get.

[TigerT20]

Why can't you just use a focus? Is there a reason?

[dehro]

You don't need ice, you need water, you can use the cold storage in the mansion to make it into ice as it will still be material from outside the mansion, water is far easier to get.
The cold storage room is out because the spell specifically states that the mansion has warm temperature throughout, and anyway, it would take longer to make that much ice and use it to make a simulacrum than the spell lasts to begin with

Why can't you just use a focus? Is there a reason?

I haven't really considered it, because the spell description is so specific in its material component requirements. Since I am supposed to work on shaping the future out of snow/ice for some 12 hours, how am I going to replace that by waving a focus around in mid air for that long? It sounds silly, albeit rules legal.

[Spore]

I haven't really considered it, because the spell description is so specific in its material component requirements. Since I am supposed to work on shaping the future out of snow/ice for some 12 hours, how am I going to replace that by waving a focus around in mid air for that long? It sounds silly, albeit rules legal.

What do you else think you're doing in TWELVE hours of basically ritual magic? Lots of waving is to be had. I would go for any spell that connects itself to the plane of water honestly. Ice, Fog, Water, Steam, all is the same plane when magic is concerned.

Have you thought about an alternate find familiar spell casting including an ice mephit? Our DM did not explicitly state our rogue (!) got an ice mephit familiar, but he just shut off its ability to attack and harm others, but it would be possible to make ice with it. Not RAW, but you never stated you wanted a RAW method, and it sounds like your DM is interested in the created fluff more than anything. So why DON'T you ice theme your character a bit more? :smallamused:

[dehro]

My mistake, the DM is very literal and RAW minded.
Anyway, as I said a few posts back, I just might have to, and have a chance to, take a stroll through a glacier

[Bohandas]

how about combining water with cone of cold

[Asisreo1]

You can make 15 cubic ft of ice using freezing sphere from water.

[Maelynn]

"If you're using a spellcasting focus or a component pouch, free components are abstracted away." - Jeremy Crawford, 08-05-2017 (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/861636231947362310)

Since there's no cost listed for the ice/snow, you don't need to procure it as long as you have a component pouch or arcane focus.

If you say your DM is very literal and RAW-minded, does he accept rulings from JC like this one?

[dancrilis]

Was going to suggest Ice Storm but I see that has been covered - so I will suggest 'Snilloc's Snowball Swarm' based on the same principle.

Of course if you are stuck you can always try to get some mice and chop off the front of them (subject to your DM).

[Deathtongue]

Shape Water. Seriously. Yes, the ice cubes only last for 1 hour, but you don't care, because you're using basic thermodynamics to turn unfrozen water into frozen water from the temporary ice cubes.

I mean, why are we even considering other alternatives? Like, I saw Ice Storm mentioned -- even if we got around the 'melt in one round' problem, why would you want to create a simulacrum of yourself that was down a spell slot instead of... just using that cantrip?

I'd only consider anything else in a game that doesn't use the Xanathar's cantrips. Which, hey, might be the case if you're in the Adventurer's League like what happened with my Bladesinger. In that case, you should use Fabricate.

[Eldariel]

Shape Water. Seriously. Yes, the ice cubes only last for 1 hour, but you don't care, because you're using basic thermodynamics to turn unfrozen water into frozen water from the temporary ice cubes.

I mean, why are we even considering other alternatives? Like, I saw Ice Storm mentioned -- even if we got around the 'melt in one round' problem, why would you want to create a simulacrum of yourself that was down a spell slot instead of... just using that cantrip?

I'd only consider anything else in a game that doesn't use the Xanathar's cantrips. Which, hey, might be the case if you're in the Adventurer's League like what happened with my Bladesinger. In that case, you should use Fabricate.

Because cantrips are picked on creation and can't be changed. Spells can. Chances are fairly good he thus can access spells but not the cantrip. Else this thread would not exist.

[Mr Adventurer]

"If you're using a spellcasting focus or a component pouch, free components are abstracted away." - Jeremy Crawford, 08-05-2017 (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/861636231947362310)

Since there's no cost listed for the ice/snow, you don't need to procure it as long as you have a component pouch or arcane focus.

If you say your DM is very literal and RAW-minded, does he accept rulings from JC like this one?

DMs might rule that some material components are not contained within a pouch and therefore are not eligible to be replaced with a focus.

One argument for this might be that the specific rules of the spell as it refers to the use of the components in its casting are more important than the general rules of spell components and component pouches.

The other argument is just what seems cooler or makes more sense.

[Sigreid]

You’re THAT player, aren’t you.

Op, don’t be that player.

No kidding. Seducing a silver dragon makes much more sense.

[dehro]

Actually the thread was born because I also don't really have access to magic shops or a library, so even researching or finding new spells to learn isn't an option. Listing cool ice making spells I don't have access to, whilst will intended and appreciated, doesn't really help. I was more looking to ways to mcgyver a solution without using spells (other than the ones I mention in the op).

That said, I do have cone of cold..I just hadn't considered it's potential for ice making, because nowhere in the spell does it say it applies to anything other than living creatures
So I'll have to clear that with the DM, if I decide to use that

[Eldariel]

Well, it would be helpful if you listed all your spells so we could figure out some McGyvering options; one of the best parts about Wizards is that many of their spells have so much beyond the obvious in terms of options. Combine spells and physics and this should be rather easy.

[dehro]

A fair request.
Not certain the link works as I mean it to, but it should lead to my spell list
https://imgur.com/a/6bBU0qi

[Eldariel]

Chromatic Orb would work similarly to Cone of Cold though with less potency. It might be favourable depending on how exactly you go about this.

Flying high with Fly might allow you to find locations favourable to producing ice. There's generally significant variation in the ambient temperature between the strata. You could use Teleportation Circle to get out as well (though I suppose getting back in would be a thing).

Repeatedly chilling something with a freezing point far below water (ethanol/distilled alcohol has a freezing point of -115 degrees Celcius for instance) with Prestidigitation would allow you to use simple thermodynamics to effortlessly freeze the water. This way you don't have to invoke a change in the state of matter with the spell and thus it should be just fine.


If you want to try a more McGyvery solution, an auxiliary angle to changing the state of matter is to alter pressure instead of temperature. Matter in low pressure tends towards gas, while matter in high pressure tends towards solid. Now the funny thing is that boiling water, it's an endothermic reaction. So it binds heat. Now where does the heat come from? Why, from the liquid of course. So the steam steals all the heat cooling the remaining water. Then you return it to standard atmospheric pressure and boom, it'll freeze.

To accomplish this, all you need is a dome of a hermetic material and a mechanical pump. A rock dome will do just fine and you can Prestidigitation for a simple pump every 6 seconds (or you can craft one manually; it's a simple mechanical machine). Then just put water inside your hermetic dome (could be as simple as a dome of rock), pump out all the air, let it boil for a while and then introduce it to atmospheric pressure again. Boom, ice.

Alternatively you could also just increase the pressure high enough to produce ice in room temperatures (the number I've seen referred to is about 10000 bars or 10000 times atmospheric pressure, so you need to put a fair amount of effort into this though and ensure that the whole body of water is under pressure so that it doesn't have the room to slip out). Of course, this kind of ice has a different molecular composition (taking far less space than ordinary ice) but it'll still be ice as in the solid state of water. Of course, since it's so compact you'll need a lot of it.


Finally, some substances can also induce freezing. Defective surface structure on some specimens of Barium fluoride for instance seemed to induce freezing on the surfaces (https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-07/aiop-acw072710.php).

[Aussiehams]

If seducing a dragon is out, I hear the Queen of Arendelle abdicated and is single.and looking for some fun.

[Democratus]

Looks like, by RAW, a spell focus is your go-to.

That's very weird. :smallsmile:

[dehro]

Looks like, by RAW, a spell focus is your go-to.

That's very weird. :smallsmile:

it is... right? it just feels wrong :smallbiggrin:

[ThatoneGuy84]

Otiluke's Freezing sphere.

If the globe strikes a body of water or a liquid that is principally water (not including water-based creatures), it freezes the liquid to a depth of 6 inches over an area 30 feet square. This ice lasts for 1 minute. Creatures that were swimming on the surface of frozen water are trapped in the ice. A trapped creature can use an action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC to break free.

Aslong as you have access to a body of water, it will solve the issue.

[Damon_Tor]

The closest thing I can think of is to create a cold storage room in Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, but if I use ice stored in there to create a simulacrum of myself, the second he steps out of the mansion he probably turns into a puddle and disappears.

By that logic anybody who ate any food from the Mansion would suddenly find themselves wracked with pain and fatigue as all the molecules originating from the food they ate vanish from their bodies. You eat a steak in the mansion, then while you sleep those proteins are being used by your body to repair your damaged tissue, so having those proteins suddenly vanish would result in huge gaps appearing in those tissues. Best case scenario, you've totally reversed any healing from that long rest, worse case scenario you're actually worse off, because your body doesn't just repair damage with protein (we need protein even when we aren't injured, after all) it grows new tissue in its constant battle against entropy. So now ALL THE TISSUES IN YOUR BODY are suddenly coming apart at the seams as critical proteins everywhere are vanishing. Most likely result: death. Horrible, agonizing death.

So yeah, let's not interpret it that way please.

[Grey Watcher]

By that logic anybody who ate any food from the Mansion would suddenly find themselves wracked with pain and fatigue as all the molecules originating from the food they ate vanish from their bodies. You eat a steak in the mansion, then while you sleep those proteins are being used by your body to repair your damaged tissue, so having those proteins suddenly vanish would result in huge gaps appearing in those tissues. Best case scenario, you've totally reversed any healing from that long rest, worse case scenario you're actually worse off, because your body doesn't just repair damage with protein (we need protein even when we aren't injured, after all) it grows new tissue in its constant battle against entropy. So now ALL THE TISSUES IN YOUR BODY are suddenly coming apart at the seams as critical proteins everywhere are vanishing. Most likely result: death. Horrible, agonizing death.

So yeah, let's not interpret it that way please.

Just as aside, I wonder about this with every "trapped in the holodeck" plot in Star Trek.

[dancrilis]

Just as aside, I wonder about this with every "trapped in the holodeck" plot in Star Trek.

I am not actually sure the holodeck is a has anything to do with holograms and instead might be a constructed reality (effectively a demiplane) created via technology that none of starfleet properly understand so they have just mislabled it (maybe the initial scientists understood what they were doing but the marketing team didn't follow the explanation and now no one remembers the truth).

[Grey Watcher]

I am not actually sure the holodeck is a has anything to do with holograms and instead might be a constructed reality (effectively a demiplane) created via technology that none of starfleet properly understand so they have just mislabled it (maybe the initial scientists understood what they were doing but the marketing team didn't follow the explanation and now no one remembers the truth).

Yeah, but misnomer aside, it's repeatedly stressed and demonstrated that holodeck-generated matter can't persist outside the holodeck. So if you eat holodeck-generated food.

Heck, whether it's a holodeck or a magnificent mansion spell, the horrific death gets even worse if you have molecules in your body made of a mix of real and non-real atoms. Your body is the site of a bunch of many sudden and very interesting reactions as the now unstable molecules start to reorganize themselves.

[Deathtongue]

Yeah, but misnomer aside, it's repeatedly stressed and demonstrated that holodeck-generated matter can't persist outside the holodeck. So if you eat holodeck-generated food.I never understood why Star Trek insisted on that limitation. From a metafictional perspective, the main reason why you want to have that limitation is so you don't have an unexplained and unlimited supply of whatever arbitrary objects you want. Except that Star Trek also has replicators, one of which was used in [SPOILERS] on a cosmic scale as the key battle strategy against the [SPOILERS]. Hell, even on Voyager people regularly replicated shuttlecraft even with the BS limitation of not being able to replicate coffee.

Going back to Magnificent Mansion: given the size and object limitations of the spell, what can you do with that spell -- assuming that objects outside the mansion persisted -- that you couldn't do with Fabricate and the relevant proficiency? The biggest relative nerf is that you wouldn't be able to grab objects made of expensive or very exotic material. But stuff like barrels of gunpowder and hot air balloons and steam engines are available with Fabricate, so what the hey?

[Vogie]

Why not wall of ice?

Because it's a 6th level spell? Casting a 6th level spell to get the ability to cast a 7th level spell seems quite odd.

[Segev]

For the record, shape water is a cantrip; you're unlikely to get it from a library, but if you've got another cantrip you can learn at a higher level, or any means at all of swapping them out, you can get it when you have opportunity to get a new cantrip.

I never understood why Star Trek insisted on that limitation. From a metafictional perspective, the main reason why you want to have that limitation is so you don't have an unexplained and unlimited supply of whatever arbitrary objects you want. Except that Star Trek also has replicators, one of which was used in [SPOILERS] on a cosmic scale as the key battle strategy against the [SPOILERS]. Hell, even on Voyager people regularly replicated shuttlecraft even with the BS limitation of not being able to replicate coffee.

It wasn't a limit for narrative purpose, though it contributed to story elements. It was a limit for conceptual purpose; their verisimilitude was that these things weren't replicated, but rather holographic and projected forcefields. Therefore, away from the emitters, they stopped existing. The holodeck didn't use replicators for solid items except maybe food. That it DID impact narrative choices and options is absolutely true, but they didn't invent the limitation for that reason. They invented the limitation because it sounded "right" to them for the tech as they envisioned it. Then they wrote around it.