Dual againts a magic user!

[Lynn1995]

Need help. Made a mistake challenging a friend who is the human encyclopedia of 3.5. Long story short I had enough of him talking down my half-dragons that I love some much and agreed to challenge him to a 1v1 against him. Were are to both make an effective character level 5. Him playing a human which will either be a wizard or druid while myself will be playing a red half-dragon fighter. We're doing a point buy of 22 points. Now as much as I love my half-dragons I might have made a mistake because tbh I think I'm gonna loose...
Forgot to mention core PH only when it comes to gear and feats. Also, would switching to barbarian be better in this fight?

EDIT: as the night drags on before my dual I'm contemplating if I should forfet the match due to the odd against me and the fact that magic is superior though the fight is over wether or not level adjustment monsters are interior to basic monsters like elves or dwarves...

[Kelb_Panthera]

If he's not a total poser, you're probably gonna lose. Half-dragon is just not a good template to have at a level that low.

Pick up mage slayer, Pierce magical concealment, and optimize your gear as best you can then cross your fingers. With only 2hd there's just not much you can do with a build.

[Powerdork]

Yeah, using "effective character level" rather than XP was a bit of a mistake to start; XP costs cut down on how much crafting, one of the major powers of mages, is available, or else cuts down on the class level they can have relative toyou.

But right now you're definitely dealing with someone who can cast 3rd-level spells. Expect to make a lot of saving throws (Fortitude or Will in particular), or to be subject to non-save effects that cause you to suffer. Slow is the first thing I can think of that will shut down someone like you, and it's far from the worst. Protection from energy to spite your breath weapon. Blindness, grease, Tasha's hideous laughter... You have fewer than 5 Hit Dice, but fortunately you are immune to sleep and hold person and similar by virtue of your Dragon type.

Druids are also very rude because they can take you in direct combat 2v1. Aside from that, their spells include contagion, protection from energy, chill metal, entangle...

I can't advise on the moment for spells outside of core, but suffice it to say, your first impulse should be to get close enough that you can disrupt spellcasting, and stay there. Grapple and/or trip if you can. Readied actions are your best friend when it comes to disrupting spells successfully cast on the defensive using Concentration checks.

[Doctor Despair]

If he's not a total poser, you're probably gonna lose. Half-dragon is just not a good template to have at a level that low.

Pick up mage slayer, Pierce magical concealment, and optimize your gear as best you can then cross your fingers. With only 2hd there's just not much you can do with a build.

That somewhat addresses invisibility and casting defensively. They won't have an answer to fly... Is it worth adding +1 LA to get something like Half-Minotaur for the movement speed / reach? They could throw on a guisarme to double the reach, and assume that if the wizard comes into close-range, the +20 racial bonus to strength would probably be enough to handle him unarmed. Additionally, being large would grant a fly speed with the half-dragon template. They'd have to apply Half-Minotaur before Half-Dragon for it to be legal, of course.

Alternatively, if the enemy is not optimizing super-well, they could go Half-Undead (Gheden) Half-Dragon (Black) Human, take Troll Blooded, and hope the wizard's spell selection has literally no way to deal with this walking wall of flesh.

Edit: While we're on the subject of cheesey builds, is there anything we could do with two levels if we have a Half-Dragon Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold and take for granted that the epic-feat cheese is valid? That's five epic feats we can pick from.

Edit 2: OK, so hear me out... If we know it's a druid or wizard and NOT a cleric, what are the odds he prepared Command Undead? We could go Half-Dragon Spellstitched Necropolitan Human for the spell resistance.

[Calthropstu]

Need help. Made a mistake challenging a friend who is the human encyclopedia of 3.5. Long story short I had enough of him talking down my half-dragons that I love some much and agreed to challenge him to a 1v1 against him. Were are to both make an effective character level 5. Him playing a human which will either be a wizard or druid while myself will be playing a red half-dragon fighter. We're doing a point buy of 22 points. Now as much as I love my half-dragons I might have made a mistake because tbh I think I'm gonna loose...

Do what he doesn't expect. First off, he is going to protect himself from your fire breath. Find a way to turn it to something else. Use your starting wealth to buy a single use anti-magic shell at 3300. Make it a worn item that crumbles.

next, purchase a one use item of silence for 300. EH, get 3 of em.
Next, purchase a potion of see invisibility for 300. 3x.
Now, purchase tanglefoot bags (10), caltrops (5), thunderstones(3) and acid flasks (5)
potion invis 1x

First use the silence on a rock in hand just before fight starts. Wait to hear casting. Throw rock towards casting stopping (and forcibly discharging harmlessly) the spell. Go over, pick up rock, ready standard to throw.

The goal is to grapple, activate the antimagic, and crush him with grappling. Use the items you purchased to get him out of attack spells. Hit him with the tanglefoot bags and acid flasks. Once the antimagic is active, his defenses die. Grapple, and eat his face off.

[Powerdork]

He won't have an answer to fly...

{Scrubbed}

[Doctor Despair]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

[Lynn1995]

Do what he doesn't expect. First off, he is going to protect himself from your fire breath. Find a way to turn it to something else. Use your starting wealth to buy a single use anti-magic shell at 3300. Make it a worn item that crumbles.

next, purchase a one use item of silence for 300. EH, get 3 of em.
Next, purchase a potion of see invisibility for 300. 3x.
Now, purchase tanglefoot bags (10), caltrops (5), thunderstones(3) and acid flasks (5)
potion invis 1x

First use the silence on a rock in hand just before fight starts. Wait to hear casting. Throw rock towards casting stopping (and forcibly discharging harmlessly) the spell. Go over, pick up rock, ready standard to throw.

The goal is to grapple, activate the antimagic, and crush him with grappling. Use the items you purchased to get him out of attack spells. Hit him with the tanglefoot bags and acid flasks. Once the antimagic is active, his defenses die. Grapple, and eat his face off.

What if I can only use feats and gear from PH1

[Kelb_Panthera]

What if I can only use feats and gear from PH1

Then you're hozed. Core only is where the game's balance is at its worst.

[Doctor Despair]

What if I can only use feats and gear from PH1

That complicated things. Combat Reflexes is a good pick, since your game plan will involve rushing up to the caster and trying to stop them from leaving or casting spells. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain gets you access to the best reach weapon. Improved Initiative will be helpful, because going first will be critical. Combat Expertise/Improved Trip would also be helpful for your trip checks, but the feat cost is relatively high.

Since you're half-dragon (from the Monster Manual), I'm assuming non-PHB templates and things like that are OK. I'd say take a major Genie, Efreeti bloodline for free Improved Initiative, and as I said before, Half-Minotaur to become large and get a bunch of stupid stat boosts. At level one, I'd take Combat Reflexes and EWP: Spiked Chain.

If I'm remembering correctly, 22 point buy would get you 18 / 14 / 8/8/8/8. Throw the 18 in str and the 14 in dex. After racial bonuses, that gets you:

S: 38
D: 12
C: 16
I: 8
W: 8
C: 10

You're large with 40 land speed (80 fly, average) and 20 feet of reach. You have improved initiative, so hopefully you go first. You can charge 80 feet to attack, or run (or fly twice) to move up to 160 feet to be adjacent to the wizard. On their turn, they have to cast defensively (concentration check of 15+spell level) or else lose the spell. You trip them, and use your attacks of opportunity to prevent them from moving to leave (or cast spells). They're a level 5 wizard (low HP), so if you are allowed to get into close range like that and they don't automatically make those DC 18 checks, you may have a decent chance. A lot of this rides on the starting conditions. If they can apply buffs before the fight (like fly or invisibility), your odds go way down. However, your odds go up the closer you start to one another.

I realized you can't go Necropolitan (that requires you to be humanoid, sadly, which half-dragon precludes), so that's not an option.

One thing you should insist on, however, is that the wizard only be allowed to use core spells if you're only allowed to use core feats. It would be only fair.

Edit:

If no non-core templates or bloodlines are allowed, you could take those two feats feats, then take Improved Initiative as well, I suppose. Your odds go down a lot since you lose your flyspeed, your base speed drops, and your reach drops down to 10 feet, as well as losing 12 strength and other stats. That strategies still probly your best bet, but I wouldn't get your hopes up

Edit 2: I realized I forgot to account for the human bonus feat in the build. If only Improved Initiative would stack! Taking the Run feat could be helpful if you start from super far away, but as I think that's unlikely, Iron Will would or something similar would probably be a better bet

[Lynn1995]

That complicated things. Combat Reflexes is a good pick, since your game plan will involve rushing up to the caster and trying to stop them from leaving or casting spells. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain gets you access to the best reach weapon. Improved Initiative will be helpful, because going first will be critical. Combat Expertise/Improved Trip would also be helpful for your trip checks, but the feat cost is relatively high.

Since you're half-dragon (from the Monster Manual), I'm assuming non-PHB templates and things like that are OK. I'd say take a major Genie, Efreeti bloodline for free Improved Initiative, and as I said before, Half-Minotaur to become large and get a bunch of stupid stat boosts. At level one, I'd take Combat Reflexes and EWP: Spiked Chain.

If I'm remembering correctly, 22 point buy would get you 18 / 14 / 8/8/8/8. Throw the 18 in str and the 14 in dex. After racial bonuses, that gets you:

S: 38
D: 12
C: 16
I: 8
W: 8
C: 10

You're large with 40 land speed (80 fly, average) and 20 feet of reach. You have improved initiative, so hopefully you go first. You can charge 80 feet to attack, or run (or fly twice) to move up to 160 feet to be adjacent to the wizard. On their turn, they have to cast defensively (concentration check of 15+spell level) or else lose the spell. You trip them, and use your attacks of opportunity to prevent them from moving to leave (or cast spells). They're a level 5 wizard (low HP), so if you are allowed to get into close range like that and they don't automatically make those DC 18 checks, you may have a decent chance. A lot of this rides on the starting conditions. If they can apply buffs before the fight (like fly or invisibility), your odds go way down. However, your odds go up the closer you start to one another.

I realized you can't go Necropolitan (that requires you to be humanoid, sadly, which half-dragon precludes), so that's not an option.

One thing you should insist on, however, is that the wizard only be allowed to use core spells if you're only allowed to use core feats. It would be only fair.

Edit:

If no non-core templates or bloodlines are allowed, you could take those two feats feats, then take Improved Initiative as well, I suppose. Your odds go down a lot since you lose your flyspeed, your base speed drops, and your reach drops down to 10 feet, as well as losing 12 strength and other stats. That strategies still probly your best bet, but I wouldn't get your hopes up

Edit 2: I realized I forgot to account for the human bonus feat in the build. If only Improved Initiative would stack! Taking the Run feat could be helpful if you start from super far away, but as I think that's unlikely, Iron Will would or something similar would probably be a better bet

Okay to clarify further.
My ECL can't exceed 5
Field will be 100x100 feet but we start 30 feet from ome another.
Only feats and gear from PH1, nothing from other books, just race
I can use any non magic class in PH1

[Doctor Despair]

Okay to clarify further.
My ECL can't exceed 5
Field will be 100x100 feet but we start 30 feet from ome another.
Only feats and gear from PH1, nothing from other books, just race
I can use any non magic class in PH1

So if racial things are allowed from other books, that build should be fine, since all the feats and the weapon are PHB. It is probably worth taking Barbarian 1 instead of Fighter 1, since Rage gives the same benefits as Iron Will and more. Best of luck, friend!

[Vizzerdrix]

I have been in a similar situation, but as the caster. You need to be able to do 2 things or you will loose. You need to cover the distance, and you absolutely must win initiative. To that end, take barb-1/fighter-1. You are going to have 3 feats. Improved Initiative is a must.
From here you have options. Power attack and weapon focus glaive. Run up, pump you two bab into damage, and ready to smack him on his turn when he tries to cast anything.
You can get rapid shot, and a high str compound bow. If he has wind wall however, you insta loose. I am not a fan of either option.
The option I like the more I think about is going mounted. A lance deals double damage on a mounted charge. Your mount can close the distance faster than you. You get another feat to use (drop the barb level and go fighter-2)so you can get spirited charge. Just ride up, and give him a poke. If he lives, give him a second poke when he draws an aoo.

Use your wbl to increase init as much as you can, then focus on connecting a strike. I wouldn't worry about armor. It won't help much against spells unless he likes summons.

[Incorrect]

You really have the odds stacked against you my friend.
Even if you win, you had to use the combined optimizing of the playground.

A trick that was used in a similar duel when I was the caster. My opponent rushed me, grappled me, and poured sovereign glue (core) on both of us. Being completely stuck to him made everything almost impossible.

If I was against you, and was feeling superior; I would go Druid and optimize my animal companion. Winning by only using one class feature.

Uber-charger with imp.initiative might be a good bet, as Viz said.

Does he get preperation/buff rounds?
- this would stack the odds even more against you.

[Lynn1995]

You really have the odds stacked against you my friend.
Even if you win, you had to use the combined optimizing of the playground.

A trick that was used in a similar duel when I was the caster. My opponent rushed me, grappled me, and poured sovereign glue (core) on both of us. Being completely stuck to him made everything almost impossible.

If I was against you, and was feeling superior; I would go Druid and optimize my animal companion. Winning by only using one class feature.

Uber-charger with imp.initiative might be a good bet, as Viz said.

Does he get preperation/buff rounds?
- this would stack the odds even more against you.

Not that im aware of but he might ask for it with the judges. We have 2 friends that are betting on one of us to win. My supporter my vote against it. Or they may flip a coin to decide.

[Vizzerdrix]

Not that im aware of but he might ask for it with the judges. We have 2 friends that are betting on one of us to win. My supporter my vote against it. Or they may flip a coin to decide.

Well then if he does, you do too. Grab a few potions. One to boost dex at least.

[King of Nowhere]

i know i am suggesting the unthinkable, but perhaps a level of monk could help? you're going to make many saving throws in this duel. and you can use the free feat for improved grapple, if you can start a grapple against a spellcaster of that level you have basically won

[Jack_Simth]

i know i am suggesting the unthinkable, but perhaps a level of monk could help? you're going to make many saving throws in this duel. and you can use the free feat for improved grapple, if you can start a grapple against a spellcaster of that level you have basically won

Unless the opponent goes Druid. 5th is where you get Wildshape. Medium animals that are good for a grapple include:

The Black Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm)
Deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus)
Crocodile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodile.htm)
Leopard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm) (due to Rake)

[Calthropstu]

I feel like no one else is even trying to prepare for the spells that the op is almost assuredly to encounter. Invisibility is almost certain to be used. How likely is protection from missles? and is there any way to increase alchemical item dc in 3.5?

[Eldan]

I feel like no one else is even trying to prepare for the spells that the op is almost assuredly to encounter. Invisibility is almost certain to be used. How likely is protection from missles? and is there any way to increase alchemical item dc in 3.5?

Well, we have to assume he doesn't have preparation. If he does, he's going to start flying and invisible, and then it's basically pointless.

[King of Nowhere]

Well, we have to assume he doesn't have preparation. If he does, he's going to start flying and invisible, and then it's basically pointless.

on the other hand, the wizard still needs to actually finish the martial off after he's flying invisible. at 5th level he won't have many spell slots, and he's already using some of his best for defence. plus, the moment he cast an offensive spell. he can summon monsters, but they are very weak and they last a few rounds.
so, maybe the fight can be survivable, a well built martial can just wheater the magical assault. for this, a few healing potions may be useful.

[Doctor Despair]

on the other hand, the wizard still needs to actually finish the martial off after he's flying invisible.

Depending on whether or not the wizard is going to be smart and buy true seeing in some way, OP could have a Rogue Variant (feat rogue) drink a high caster level potion of invisibility. Then, they could hide behind the tower shield they are carrying (not wielding) for total cover and try to run out the clock (if there is one) or at least the duration of the wizard's spells.


I feel like no one else is even trying to prepare for the spells that the op is almost assuredly to encounter. Invisibility is almost certain to be used...

We've mentioned blind fight for invisibility, but at the end of the day, I think most posters are just assuming that if the wizard goes first or otherwise gets to cast spells, the chance of beating him goes down dramatically, regardless of our prep, and so are trying to prevent those spells from being cast in the first place.

[Mordaedil]

OP is one color spray away from being completely rendered inert. Bands of Steel would have finished this fight before it even began.

If you are doing half-dragon, you are already 3 levels behind. You'll only be 2nd level here. Even just a fireball or lightning bolt could end it at that point.

[Evoker]

I agree with Calthropstu. A single-use CL 11 Antimagic Field is your best shot at winning this. At 3300 it's taking up just over a third of your wealth, and it shuts down spellcasting and (SU) Druid Wildshape. The most you'll possibly have to contend with is the druid's unbuffed animal companion.
But at that point, you're not proving Half-dragon's superiority at all, you're just proving that you can spend 3300 gp to mostly shut down almost any caster for about two hours.

[King of Nowhere]

But at that point, you're not proving Half-dragon's superiority at all, you're just proving that you can spend 3300 gp to mostly shut down almost any caster for about two hours.

if the point was proving half-dragon superiority, then there's not any point at all.

if you want to prove half-dragon superiority you can only do so by having fun at the table and having a memorable character for everyone. a character's success is not determined by how many problems your charactr can solve, but by how well you like playing him and your group likes having him in. if a few years down the line the group will still be talking about your iconic half-dragon character while they'd all forgot the yet-another-disposable-otpimized-caster of your friend, then you will have won the duel. if your fellow players resent the caster player for gobbling up the spotlight while they welcome you, then you have won the duel.

before someone mentions stormwind fallacy: yes, there are many players of optimized tier 1 classes that are good roleplayers and fun to have in the party.
the guy who talks down another player for his unoptimized choices and challenges him to a duel? he's unlikely to be one.
in my party we try to help the players less skilled at optimization to carve a niche for themselves where they can shine and contribute. we don't mock their choices, nor abuse their characters.

[Zanos]

I agree with Calthropstu. A single-use CL 11 Antimagic Field is your best shot at winning this. At 3300 it's taking up just over a third of your wealth, and it shuts down spellcasting and (SU) Druid Wildshape. The most you'll possibly have to contend with is the druid's unbuffed animal companion.
But at that point, you're not proving Half-dragon's superiority at all, you're just proving that you can spend 3300 gp to mostly shut down almost any caster for about two hours.
Not only that, you're buying an item that lets you pretend to have a class feature of an 11th level caster, once. That's a big oof in my book.

[Doctor Despair]

Not only that, you're buying an item that lets you pretend to have a class feature of an 11th level caster, once. That's a big oof in my book.

That's true. At the end of the day, even my stuff is just proving that, with enough racial bonuses to strength and size, a level 1 martial can beat a level 5 magic-user at low enough levels of optimization.

[Gusmo]

Buffs ahead of combat are going to favor the caster. I believe sensible rules about arena battle buffs in general would work in your favor here. More generally for these types of fights, I believe that only buffs which you keep active all day can be on going in, otherwise you may get people arguing that initiators also can't have an active stance and nobody can be wearing armor or magic items. I've even seen a person say 'waking up' conditions and trying to forbid literally any time to prep, including preparing spells, though I give it a 50% chance the person suggesting this was trolling, who knows.

[Doctor Despair]

At level 5, without circle magic shenanigans, what all-day buffs could they have? A cleric could DMM persistent spell, but without turning, those rules would mean no buffs pre-combat, right?

[Gusmo]

At level 5, without circle magic shenanigans, what all-day buffs could they have? A cleric could DMM persistent spell, but without turning, those rules would mean no buffs pre-combat, right?

I posted assuming the answer would be none. This is generally only relevant at higher levels, but I think it'll be fun if we can get the OP a victory together.

[Maat Mons]

A major hangup for these types of battles is per-day abilities. Per-day abilities are supposed to be balanced by the fact that you have multiple fights in a day. So players don't just spam all of them in a dingle combat. Or if they do, they then have to go through several fights with none of those abilities.

I think that you should ask that the opposing player be limited to using only as many resources on this one fight as he would normally be able to allot to one fight. Point out that blowing his entire days-worth of resources in one go doesn't really reflect how well the character would work in actual play.

There used to be a sort of tournament along these lines called the Core Colosseum. One of their rules was that you could only use 1/3 of your daily resources in a fight, rounded down. So divide your number of 1st-level spell slots by 3, divide your number of 2nd-level spell slots by 3, divide your number of Rages per day by 3... you get the idea.

For similar reasons, you should both have a limit on the total gp value of expendable items you can use in this fight.

[Zanos]

A major hangup for these types of battles is per-day abilities. Per-day abilities are supposed to be balanced by the fact that you have multiple fights in a day. So players don't just spam all of them in a dingle combat. Or if they do, they then have to go through several fights with none of those abilities.

I think that you should ask that the opposing player be limited to using only as many resources on this one fight as he would normally be able to allot to one fight. Point out that blowing his entire days-worth of resources in one go doesn't really reflect how well the character would work in actual play.

There used to be a sort of tournament along these lines called the Core Colosseum. One of their rules was that you could only use 1/3 of your daily resources in a fight, rounded down. So divide your number of 1st-level spell slots by 3, divide your number of 2nd-level spell slots by 3, divide your number of Rages per day by 3... you get the idea.

For similar reasons, you should both have a limit on the total gp value of expendable items you can use in this fight.
It's a common misconception that because characters don't have discreet use per day abilities they don't have daily resources. They do, they're called hit points. So if either character loses more than 1/4th their hitpoints, you should call the match.

But actually a 1v1 fight against someone of your character level is actually a CR = ECL + 4 encounter, so expenditure of all daily resources should be expected.