Backseat DM

[Catullus64]

You presumably know the type. Constantly trying to police other players' use of their characters, telling the actual DM how they ought to interpret the rules, what sort of skill checks they should be allowed to make. This sort of person also objects strenuously when a player uses a questionable ruling to their advantage, even when it clearly doesn't bother the actual DM. The details may vary, but we're talking about the kind of person who undercuts the DM's authority and tries to usurp their responsibilities.

Unfortunately, I think that might be me.

For context, I am the DM for the overwhelming majority of games I play in, both private and public, and I think that ratio of DM-to-player time has started getting to me. When I get the occasional opportunity to play, I've started to notice some of these bad habits. I mean well; I want the other players to get the most out of their features and builds, and I don't want unscrupulous players to take advantage of a novice DM. Likewise, I want the DM to run the best game possible, and when they make what I consider to be a common mistake, I point it out. Not rudely, but a dozen polite comments over the course of a session can still add up to be rude.

In short, I don't quite know how to switch my DM-brain off. Even while playing, I'm still concerned with shaping and directing the overall play experience, and in being the voice of authority on how to use the rules and tell a story, even when that is clearly not my job. Anyone else guilty of this? Anyone have tips on specific actions to take to curb this habit?

[SunderedWorldDM]

I understand what you're talking about, and I think to a lesser extent I relate to it. One of the things that I always do when I'm being the "backseat DM" is to phrase things in terms of a question instead of a statement. Instead of "Hey, that enemy should have 3/4 cover by RAW," perhaps try "DM, that enemy is behind a stalactite, and that should give them 3/4 cover, right?". Or instead of "you should use your Hex on the barlgura, not the cult fanatic," perhaps try "your Hex is a big deal, and that fanatic is kind of weak, while that barlgura is a powerful enemy. What do you think about Hexing them instead?". Phrasing it as a question makes it seem a lot less offensive, and makes you into more of a helpful figure, because anyone can say "no" to a question, and you can drop it no problem.

Even in cases where it's very clear cut, adding a "right?" does a world of help. "You should be rolling 4d8 smite instead of 3d8, right?" or "I'm giving you advantage, so you can deal your sneak attack, right?" are a lot better than them thinking that you are asserting that you know their characters better than they do, and there's the off chance that they have thought of/know something you don't.

TLDR: Question form is a valuable tool for a backseat DM.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "being the voice of authority on how to use the rules and tell a story"?

[prabe]

I am familiar with this concern. My own solutions are the following, take what'll work for you:

I play 5E pencil-and-paper, even now that we have to use VTTs. I don't have an electronic resource to-hand (I don't have a D&D Beyond account, for instance).

I don't keep any of the DM-facing rulebooks around me while I'm a player--no DMG, no MM, no other resources that aren't relevant to my character. Corollary: I don't look up monsters the DM runs, except in the rare-ish case where I end up using something he's using--and I make an effort to avoid this. Corollary: If something comes up with an erratum I know about, I make sure the DM knows.

I play a high-INT, high-WIS character, so it's reasonable in-character for me to be suggesting things to other PCs (and be correct about them).

I let the other players play their characters--I only make those suggestions if someone is flailing or making a major error.

I let the DM run the game. I don't argue with rulings unless I believe them to be blatantly wrong (and only then if it's working around something I'm doing/planning for).

[Catullus64]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "being the voice of authority on how to use the rules and tell a story"?

Everyone has their own ideal of what makes for good D&D, and I think I try to exert my preferred vision even when the DM is clearly going for something else. Does the DM have encounters of marginal difficulty? I'll try to point out the ways in which the monsters could be a lot more effective. Is the DM trying to present a specific obstacle or challenge to the party? I'll start making schemes to bypass the challenge. I'm also guilty of "tone hijacking": making jokes or planning ridiculous schemes while the DM is trying to set a more serious tone, or playing a purposefully silly situation for drama.

As for the advice of using question syntax, I agree that that's a step up from making demands, but I mostly already do that, and I think most people can spot when a question form is really masking an indicative statement.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Everyone has their own ideal of what makes for good D&D, and I think I try to exert my preferred vision even when the DM is clearly going for something else. Does the DM have encounters of marginal difficulty? I'll try to point out the ways in which the monsters could be a lot more effective. Is the DM trying to present a specific obstacle or challenge to the party? I'll start making schemes to bypass the challenge. I'm also guilty of "tone hijacking": making jokes or planning ridiculous schemes while the DM is trying to set a more serious tone, or playing a purposefully silly situation for drama.
Perhaps consider why the DM is making the choices they're making, and why your choices that you make as a DM differ. Why are they presenting you with this challenge? Is it so that they can help steer you to what they have prepared and don't have to fly by the seat of their pants? Is it so that you can fail, and have to reckon with that as a character/party? Is it so that they can see you find an ingenious solution? Why does the DM want this moment to be serious, and why do they want this one to feel light-hearted? What sort of tone, what sort of feel, what sort of play experience are THEY trying to create, and how can you help THAT instead of trying to mold their game to what you would run?

After all, I would guess that some of the reason you're playing is to get away from the sound of your own voice and your own stories. If you're trying your damndest as a player to run the game as you would run it as a DM, that's a little bit less fun for everyone, right? So perhaps a bit of thought as to what the other DM is TRYING to accomplish and how they're achieving it, and what you can do to help them instead of molding their game to your assumptions, could help clear up the problem?

[prabe]

Everyone has their own ideal of what makes for good D&D, and I think I try to exert my preferred vision even when the DM is clearly going for something else. Does the DM have encounters of marginal difficulty? I'll try to point out the ways in which the monsters could be a lot more effective. Is the DM trying to present a specific obstacle or challenge to the party? I'll start making schemes to bypass the challenge. I'm also guilty of "tone hijacking": making jokes or planning ridiculous schemes while the DM is trying to set a more serious tone, or playing a purposefully silly situation for drama.

So, is there anyone at the table that you know and trust well enough to, say, kick you when you start doing those things? I'm fortunate enough to be married to someone who'll keep me in check if needed. That might be the sort of thing you need to help you learn not to do those things. I'll be first to admit that the campaigns I'm playing are ... not my ideal, but I make an effort not to be disruptive around the table (disrupting NPCs' plans is another thing entirely). Especially if your DM is new, you kinda owe them a little space of their own, I think.

I mean, how would you react (or at least feel) if there was a player like you describe yourself at your table?

[Catullus64]

So, is there anyone at the table that you know and trust well enough to, say, kick you when you start doing those things? I'm fortunate enough to be married to someone who'll keep me in check if needed.

Such a person's gentle criticism is indeed part of what helped prompt this self-reflection. Do still want to be responsible for my own improvement though; she can't be at every game I play. :smile:


I mean, how would you react (or at least feel) if there was a player like you describe yourself at your table?

That's interesting for you to mention. When I run a game, I think I do a pretty thorough job of both setting expectations for the players, and in making firm, clear, and consistent rulings. However, I've only gotten to that place from experience. It's easier for backseat DMs (like myself) to spring up at the tables of less confident DMs. What your comment reveals to me is that it has been a very long time since I was that less confident DM, and I've gotten out of touch with what it's like. Maybe I should start running other systems to regain that sense of vulnerability. (Although that's difficult for commercial games; D&D 5e is in the most demand by far, at least in my area.)

[RSP]

I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing. I’m doing something similar in the current campaign I’m playing in, however, right up front I spoke with the DM about it and he decided something along the lines of: “hey I can’t remember all the rules, all the time, so you can be the official RAW guy.” Now, that said, when he makes a ruling, I abide by it, though in between sessions I may email him about something for clarity.

A lot of the time my interjections amount to “there’s no light source around, right?” or “is the BBEG behind cover from here?” To point out if someone should have Advantage or Disadvantage or adjustments to their rolls.

I think being up front with it should clear up any misunderstandings.

As for comments that affect other players, I do that when needed as well: not in terms of min/max or optimizing, but I will comment on abilities/or point out situational stuff. I recall in one session in the last month or so, the Cleric had their Spiritual Weapon token on the battle map as we were moving along between combats and I asked the DM “has it been over a minute since our last battle?” That reminded the Cleric of the duration and they were like “oh yeah, that’s probably expired.”

Sometimes my comments help players, sometimes it hurts them, but I don’t think there’s any issue reminding people of the rules. Those that do mind, I’ve found, are the ones trying to get away with something.

And if someone gets offended that I pointed out there’s no light source in the area and, since they don’t have Darkvision, they can’t see and have Disadvantage on Attack rolls, that’s their problem. I do it politely, but it’s clearly the rules and if they’re going to participate in the game, it’s their responsibility to know the rules and their PC’s abilities.

[prabe]

I am pleased you took my suggestions in the spirit they were intended. I agree that it would be preferable to be able to keep these impulses under control without outside interference, but ... if you have someone willing to help you spot when you're doing it, it seems reasonable to use that. It can be really hard to see your own annoying behaviors from inside--I say that from a place of long experience.

And if empathy with a less-confident GM is hard, maybe trying anything you're less-confident about doing will help. Asking an Internet forum for help, for instance. :wink:

[Zarrgon]

Well, the easy answer is to simply no be a player.

You might want to try being a Co-DM or a back up DM. The other DM controls most of the game, but you get to run a lot of npcs and monsters. Or doing the sort of things like when characters go shopping. You get to "play" a lot more with out all the burdens of being a DM.

Really, you can try the old "don't give advise unless you're asked".

When it comes to things like style...you are really best to ignore such things.

If the other DM is up for it, you might do an After Game Review, and save your comments for that.

Really, though you just want to let go of everything and just play a character....as that is what you want to do, right?

[Mordaedil]

The way I've dealt with this, depends a bit on how the rule comes up in the game, but I might ask if this is a house-rule we're running with and clarify that I don't think it's how the rule is written.

Always in the form of a question though, because sometimes the DM just wants to tell a story and move along, so the rule incision isn't appreciated if it is brought out as a statement.

Casting a spell expecting a certain result? DM determines it does something unexpected? Perfect time to ask if it's being house-ruled. Always maintain a positive attitude about the ruling.

If the DM's ruling specifically screws you over in a way you feel might be unfair, ask if your character would have known it would backfire in that way. If they answer yes, ask if you can change your action (sometimes you can, sometimes too much has happened) and then you might just have to roleplay it as if your character didn't expect the blowback in the way the DM described it.

It's not a bad thing to know the rules well, but learning to be a diplomat about the rulings is essential for maintaining the social contract.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I am my group rule expert or rule lawyer(I just like the way it sounds).

I record the rule problems that happen in the session. After the game I explain them to everyone.

Sometimes I say something in the middle of the game but only if it is crucial(like when our two swashbucklers forget their SA trigger or when our Paladin forget to use his BB secondary damage).

[Demonslayer666]

/raises hand
"guilty"

Especially when preparing to run my game while playing in another. I tend to get into DM mode.

My best advice is to wait for them to ask you for help. If they don't, write it down and save it for later. Sleep on it.

If your game is highly tactical, and it matters right then, bring it up. But you have to weight this with the type of game you are playing. If it's more story based, it doesn't matter near as much.


Remember, the point of playing is to have fun, not be right about rules. Just keep in mind what your character would do, and try to focus on that while letting the DM do his job.

[Joe the Rat]

I'm Primary DM for our group. I think it took about three years and the threat of burnout to get others to step up, and I enjoy every chance I get to do something not involving running the universe. And I totally feel where you are coming from.

This is what I do. It works for me and my group, so YMMV.

For DMing, there are two parts to address: The Hard Skills and the Soft Skills.

The Hard skills is the rules mastery. That stuff is hard to shut off - I spend a lot of time sitting on my hands with tongue firmly between my teeth when the DM does something differently than I would, or a player isn't using their abilities to the best of their ability, so to speak. The best ways I've found to deal with this is Lead By Example and Everything Question. If I am doing something exceptionally Rubegoldbergian, I will explain all the relevant rules in my setup. Yes, you sound a bit like Yami Yugi, but if you are pulling off some strange moves, you have to show your homework the first time. And I will try to use every situational factor that might come into play, so everyone can see what can be done. When I move for cover, I ask how low I need to get for half/3/4. When I ask what the enemies are using for light, I know how far back to be when I shut mine off. If there is a limit or vulnerability that can be exploited, I'll let the players know (so they can cover me) and the DM know (so they don't just give up, and know how to exploit it in the future).

On the "someone is screwing up" side, you do NOTHING without a question mark involved. Some of these are reminders for players ("Were you going to sneak attack here? Did you want to be reckless with the attack? I think the paladin gives you cover?"), some are checks with the DM ("Can I see him? What do I know about this creature? Wasn't that difficult terrain last round?"). And when someone disagrees, shut up.

Now there is another side to that: being asked questions - and that for me is the hardest part, because everyone knows I know this stuff. I will confirm or clarify rules.... but will push rulings back to the DM, because that is entirely their call. I might not rule the same on something, but that is my game, not yours, and so long as it isn't game-breakingly stupid, am not going to address it. And be waffly on your feedback. "Yeah, that sounds good, right?" or "that sounds kind of high, maybe a 15?," or my favorite "what do you guys think?" This puts questions to discussion rather than making you the Voice of Authority, 2nd Class.


The Soft Skills are all the stuff that doesn't necessarily involve dice: Worldbuilding, Lore, and Running the game. Stay out of it unless the DM asks you. Lore is purely their purview, even -no, especially in published worlds. Changing things to work for your table isn't just an option, it's your job. Make the backstories matter. Make relevant NPCs parts of the backstory. Put a slaadpole in Elminster's head and run the world like there isn't a super-wizard waiting in the wings to sweep up. Add Loxodons to Greyhawk because why the hell not?

Pacing, table management, setup tricks: only if asked, and only off-line. That's a you sharing advice with the DM thing, not a stop play and debate the merits of actual vs Aesopian cosmologoies. If there are issues with players - the glory hog, the wallflower, the dice halfling - make that direct interaction as a fellow player, not a step in for the DM.

[Dark.Revenant]

Speaking from experience, even if you keep your mouth shut, you might still look like a powergamer if you express mastery of the rules when running your own character. Most of this comes down to the culture of the group you're in. In some groups, it's fine to say "hey, a fireball would be great right now!" or "inspire me, baby!" But in other groups, speaking out of line is highly disrespectful, never tolerated, and will quickly get you thrown out to the curb. In some groups, saying "being prone shouldn't give advantage to the goblins' saves against my fireball," is a helpful rules reminder. In other groups, it's an unwarranted interruption in flow and a rude case of backseat DMing.

Styles range from "basically, we're war-gaming with RP thrown in for fun" to "the rules are the least important part of the game and will be bent, broken, or ignored at the DM's convenience at any time for any reason." Any advice we give will need to be filtered by your judgement.