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Were-Sandwich
2007-10-27, 03:01 PM
One thing has been niggling at the back of my mind since I started playing RPGs: Why do people turn to the PCs, when there are officials to deal with this sort of thing?

Of course, the real answer is because it would be rather borign for the PCs if the army actuall got called in to handle some bandits or a rogue dragon.

I can sort of acccept it for fantasy settings, where authority won't be present everywhere, and people need to take care of things themselves. But it really doesn't make sense in a Modern or sci-fi environment.

Can someone enlighten me?

Mewtarthio
2007-10-27, 03:10 PM
Several possible reasons:

The problem is the authorities, and it's up to the PCs to take down the Evil Overlord/Conspiracy/Corporate Bastard/God.
The authorities don't know about the problem, or are actively denying its existence rather than deal with it. This covers everything from cultists to giant man-eating sharks to pod people.
The PCs are stronger than the authorities. A small hamlet might be lucky to have anyone over fifth level, and certainly doesn't have the resources to deal with a dragon. At high levels, the PCs can become demigods unto themselves.
The problem is a minor one, and it's too much trouble to wade through all the red tape to get an official solution (which could easily be "hire someone else"). Aside from horrifically mundane tasks like "rats in the basement," this could also apply to escort missions, such as caravans, especially during times of war when military equipment is being used elsewhere.
The PCs are the authorities. It's their job to help.
The job is illegal. Alternatively, the job itself is perfectly legal but hiring the authorities will draw unwanted attention.
Authority is weak, and it's time for some good old-fashioned fronteir enforcement.

Fiery Justice
2007-10-27, 03:10 PM
Public humiliation, the services already failed, you distrust the services/government, its about the services/government, you get the idea.

Thoughtbot360
2007-10-27, 05:45 PM
The PCs are stronger than the authorities. A small hamlet might be lucky to have anyone over fifth level, and certainly doesn't have the resources to deal with a dragon. At high levels, the PCs can become demigods unto themselves.


I dislike this one the most. Problems occur when PC reach this level. The law is only as strong as the military power behind the authority. If some random group of unaccountable adventurers surpass them, they are basically above the law. Some of you who play super hero systems may wonder what the problem is.

The problem is that Superman is a nice, responsible guy that exists in our imaginations. How much self control and consideration for the fiction world they play in do your player characters have? The thing is, in all Superhero game worlds, theres usually some amount of policing amongst super humans, since there so much of them. The supervillians in those systems are usually those with powers that refuse to work in the system or are using their powers irresponsibly.

This is why the DMG recommends that the city has its on elite anti-magic specialist to aid the guard when some choad is showing off. However, I wonder how they deal with low-level stuff like"

The Mount scam:
1) Change self into a person who looks nothing like you.
2) Cast Mount to summon a horse
3) Use Magic Aura to dispel the horses' magicalness, then sell it to someone....someone that doesn't look too much like another adventurer or caster.

Playing a con man is okay if thats your character, but these spells circumvent any and all consequences.

Idiotbox90
2007-10-27, 05:58 PM
Valid points.

I've always treated it as a deal between players and DM. The DM agrees to set up circumstances that make the PCs look like heroes and the players agree to act the part.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-10-27, 06:11 PM
I've always treated it as a deal between players and DM. The DM agrees to set up circumstances that make the PCs look like heroes and the players agree to act the part.

QFT. I believe the answer to this one is more vigilante action. A gnome wizard's day off is particularly appealing. Takes a thief to catch a thief, after all...

Mewtarthio
2007-10-27, 06:55 PM
I dislike this one the most. Problems occur when PC reach this level. The law is only as strong as the military power behind the authority. If some random group of unaccountable adventurers surpass them, they are basically above the law. Some of you who play super hero systems may wonder what the problem is.

Hey, if the PCs are powerful enough to destroy a villiage, and they want to destroy a villiage, that villiage is gone. Obviously, random slaughter is going to draw high-level characters from around the world to punish you (from all alignments: Law because you're clearly flaunting human organization, Good because you're murdering people, Evil because Law offers nice bounties, and Chaos because such attacks could only be a lead-in to a regime of fear).


The problem is that Superman is a nice, responsible guy that exists in our imaginations. How much self control and consideration for the fiction world they play in do your player characters have? The thing is, in all Superhero game worlds, theres usually some amount of policing amongst super humans, since there so much of them. The supervillians in those systems are usually those with powers that refuse to work in the system or are using their powers irresponsibly.

Alright, if the players want to be superheroes, they can be superheroes. Since superheroes don't use their power to crush the little folk, I'd guess that they wouldn't crush the little folk.


This is why the DMG recommends that the city has its on elite anti-magic specialist to aid the guard when some choad is showing off. However, I wonder how they deal with low-level stuff like"

The Mount scam:
1) Change self into a person who looks nothing like you.
2) Cast Mount to summon a horse
3) Use Magic Aura to dispel the horses' magicalness, then sell it to someone....someone that doesn't look too much like another adventurer or caster.

Playing a con man is okay if thats your character, but these spells circumvent any and all consequences.

Interesting. That combo uses three first-level spells (disguise self, magic aura, and mount). In exchange, you get to sell a horse, bit, and bridle worth 77 gp. None of those are trade goods, so as a general rule you can sell them for 38 gp. Alternatively, you could move to the city and sell out your services as a spellcaster. Those three first-level spells give you a total of 30 gp per caster level (plus expenses). At first level, you make 8 gp fewer per spell combo, and you don't have to worry about all the stuff that scares first-level casters (namely, law enforcement, which is always stronger than you). At second level, you make way more legitimately than via the mount scam. At third level, you can cast second level spells, and just cast one such spell per day to make more money than the guy pulling the mount scam. At fourth level, you need only cast one first-level spell to beat out the mount guy, and you're still nowhere near the level where you're much stronger than the authorities.

Kantolin
2007-10-27, 07:47 PM
How much self control and consideration for the fiction world they play in do your player characters have?

Honestly, this strikes me as a slightly different problem.

Personally, if the group would like to start randomly destroying cities, let them. With the existance of powerful enemies in the world, there are likely to be powerful people to come deal with this problem; any or all of these could come attemtp to stop the PCs.

And, most importantly, if the PCs use tactics, skill, and other things of the sort to come on top... then that's still a great campaign there, with a group of evil but powerful people attempting to control a worldset, and can they hold it. It can go for awhile, and in the end, if it succeeds, they can live happily ever after. Or fail cinematically. *Shrug*

Now, if the DM (And/or a majority of the players) would not like to play/run that style of game, then you should speak with everyone ahead of time, and have everyone create characters who will not start down that road. I mean, this is more of an out of character problem than an in character problem.

If your players/characters will only not destroy towns because there are powerful people there staring at them, then you have other problems.

Collin152
2007-10-28, 12:17 AM
Interesting. That combo uses three first-level spells (disguise self, magic aura, and mount). In exchange, you get to sell a horse, bit, and bridle worth 77 gp. None of those are trade goods, so as a general rule you can sell them for 38 gp. Alternatively, you could move to the city and sell out your services as a spellcaster. Those three first-level spells give you a total of 30 gp per caster level (plus expenses). At first level, you make 8 gp fewer per spell combo, and you don't have to worry about all the stuff that scares first-level casters (namely, law enforcement, which is always stronger than you). At second level, you make way more legitimately than via the mount scam. At third level, you can cast second level spells, and just cast one such spell per day to make more money than the guy pulling the mount scam. At fourth level, you need only cast one first-level spell to beat out the mount guy, and you're still nowhere near the level where you're much stronger than the authorities.

Furthermore, who buys a horse from some guy on the street in the amount of time a mount spell lasts for? Personally, it would take me at least a month to decide that I want the horse, let alone go through the trouble of buying it. Given a peasent farmer would need his horse now, I'd let him have two days to a week of indiscretion. Yeah, nice scam, buster.

Aquillion
2007-10-28, 12:48 AM
The Mount scam:
1) Change self into a person who looks nothing like you.
2) Cast Mount to summon a horse
3) Use Magic Aura to dispel the horses' magicalness, then sell it to someone....someone that doesn't look too much like another adventurer or caster.

Playing a con man is okay if thats your character, but these spells circumvent any and all consequences.Just assume there are magic items to handle it, and that most shopkeepers carry them (this works especially well in Eberron.)

For instance:

Lens of Assessment

This enchanted lens is frequently used by merchants to protect themselves from unscrupulous apprentice spellcasters. It has two functions:

When used to examine an object or creature at close range for at least ten minutes, will reveal if that object is the temporary result of a first-level or lower conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell, and give a very general sense of the timescale on which that object will exist if it is. (e.g. it will vanish today, it will vanish within a week, it will vanish within a month, it will vanish within a year.)

When used to examine a willing person at close range for at least ten minutes, it will reveal whether or not that person is the subject of any first-level or lower spells that alter their appearance, such as Disguise Self. No information is gained by examining an unwilling person (but the user knows that the lens has not functioned properly.)

The lens will not detect spells above first level or provide any information beyond what is listed; but within its limitations, it cannot be fooled by Magic Aura or any similar first level or lower spell. Using the lens requires extensive examination of the subject throughout the ten minutes required, and cannot be done covertly.

Merchants dealing in high-value merchandise will often carry a lens such as this, and it is considered one of the main key investments when setting up a major business. In smaller towns or merchant districts, there may be one constable bearing such a lens who merchants call over before making a high-value purchase with unfamiliar customers.

Faint divination; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, detect magic; Price 100 gp; Weight 1 lb.

...the price is perhaps a bit low, but I think that with all the restrictions I put on it it is fairly useless to adventurers, and 100 gp is enough to put it in range of a handful of merchants who want to pool their gold so they'll have a way of avoiding scams. Second-level spells can fool it, but really, once you're third level or so, who cares? The people who deal in really expensive stuff will have a Gem of Seeing or employ someone who can cast True Seeing anyway.