So in the absence of the standard races, what species end up ruling civilization?

[Gavinfoxx]

So if the normal elves/dwarves/humans/other normal-ish biped species that tend to gain lots of class levels aren't around... what are the main species that end up ruling vast civilizations and empires that contain many different races within their borders?

Dragons are the obvious ones, but what else? And where do I find appropriate write-ups for these races?

[One Step Two]

I think it depends entirely on the dynamic of the races and their ideologies in a given setting. Two primary examples come to mind:


If you create a world without standard core races, then you need to decide which races come to power and why, or

In an established setting what changes when the core races are removed


If we're talking in a purely numerical superiority sense of which races comes to power because of their monstrous abilities, I would honestly say Giants. Because while there are more powerful monsters, Giants are the most numerous of the non-standard core races with a society that can grow to fill the missing space left behind by core races.

Though, as I wrote that the following thought occurs as which race replaces which missing race. Goblins would replace Dwarves, Giants replacing Elves, Monstrous Humanoids replacing humans perhaps?
Are orcs gone with the removal of half-orcs?

[Doctor Despair]

I think it depends entirely on the dynamic of the races and their ideologies in a given setting. Two primary examples come to mind:


If you create a world without standard core races, then you need to decide which races come to power and why, or

In an established setting what changes when the core races are removed


If we're talking in a purely numerical superiority sense of which races comes to power because of their monstrous abilities, I would honestly say Giants. Because while there are more powerful monsters, Giants are the most numerous of the non-standard core races with a society that can grow to fill the missing space left behind by core races.

Though, as I wrote that the following thought occurs as which race replaces which missing race. Goblins would replace Dwarves, Giants replacing Elves, Monstrous Humanoids replacing humans perhaps?
Are orcs gone with the removal of half-orcs?

Numbers is definitely a fair way to assess this, but if we're being realistic, it would be the creatures with the fewest RHD and LA, right? As they could take levels in magic-using classes, overpower the others, and forge a civilization in the wilderness? The contenders to stand against these low-HD creatures would be the races that have innate spellcasting, like dragons. So I suppose it entirely depends on what criteria we are using to eliminate species from the planet. Is it all races with 1 or fewer RHD vanish without a trace?

Failing a proper clarification on that issue, I think your thoughts on numbers would be a fair place to start. Regardless of how strong a race is, when we're discussing who would fill the void where humans et all used to be, the ability to repopulate the planet is definitely a strong one to consider. There is probably a balance point between lifecycle and innate power that would be found for the optimal race to build a civilization, with other races forming ecosystems on the outskirts as they do in the more standard settings.

[One Step Two]

Numbers is definitely a fair way to assess this, but if we're being realistic, it would be the creatures with the fewest RHD and LA, right? As they could take levels in magic-using classes, overpower the others, and forge a civilization in the wilderness? The contenders to stand against these low-HD creatures would be the races that have innate spellcasting, like dragons. So I suppose it entirely depends on what criteria we are using to eliminate species from the planet. Is it all races with 1 or fewer RHD vanish without a trace?

Failing a proper clarification on that issue, I think your thoughts on numbers would be a fair place to start. Regardless of how strong a race is, when we're discussing who would fill the void where humans et all used to be, the ability to repopulate the planet is definitely a strong one to consider. There is probably a balance point between lifecycle and innate power that would be found for the optimal race to build a civilization, with other races forming ecosystems on the outskirts as they do in the more standard settings.

Yeah, if we're talking the removal of core races, I think the goblinoids/orcs would be the most likely to take up the space, Hobgoblins are particularly known for their martial ability, so they would definetly be the ones to step into the missing space, they have fast life cycles and breed quickly. Kobolds would be another race that fills the space of gnomes for example too, same deal, fast maturation and the ability to spread.

But if we're straight up talking about removing anything that walks on two legs with the Human/humanoid type, then things get more interesting. Because we're eliminating the normally most populous races, and then we need to ask which race has the drive to fill that gap, which I think Monstrous Humanoids will step into that role, like Ogres and Yuan-ti, and if those are removed, then once more I return to Giants.

[Doctor Despair]

... But if we're straight up talking about removing anything that walks on two legs with the Human/humanoid type, then things get more interesting. Because we're eliminating the normally most populous races, and then we need to ask which race has the drive to fill that gap, which I think Monstrous Humanoids will step into that role, like Ogres and Yuan-ti, and if those are removed, then once more I return to Giants.

Are we overlooking the rise of the undead? With the removal of clerics and most traditional sources of turn/rebuke undead, could we see a surge in these creatures? In a sense, they form their own "civilizations" through the use of intelligent undead creating further subservient undead to serve them and creature further spawn, and so on, much like the feudal structure of many 3.5 campaigns.

[One Step Two]

Are we overlooking the rise of the undead? With the removal of clerics and most traditional sources of turn/rebuke undead, could we see a surge in these creatures? In a sense, they form their own "civilizations" through the use of intelligent undead creating further subservient undead to serve them and creature further spawn, and so on, much like the feudal structure of many 3.5 campaigns.

Well, here's the weird part, almost all traditional undead, especially intelligent ones, are actually dead humanoids! Vampires, Zombies, skeletons, even ghosts tend to be dead humans more than anything. It's certainly a possibility that there will be more monstrous undead, but they are less threatening to them due to their inherent base power.

It's the same reason I discounted aberrations like Mind Flayers, because of their reliance on humanoid slaves! When you remove one of the core parts of their power, they aren't as likely to grow to fill the space the missing races filled without a lot of hand-waving.

[Doctor Despair]

Well, here's the weird part, almost all traditional undead, especially intelligent ones, are actually dead humanoids! Vampires, Zombies, skeletons, even ghosts tend to be dead humans more than anything. It's certainly a possibility that there will be more monstrous undead, but they are less threatening to them due to their inherent base power.


Just out of your examples, vampires can include monstrous humanoids, ghosts can also include 7 other types besides humanoids (again including monstrous humanoids), and zombie/skeletons have no require base types. Vampires could become a threat if they are able to build a critical mass of low-HD monstrous humanoid subservient vampires, use them to overpower higher HD monstrous humanoids, drain them, etc... Of course, vampires have their own vulnerabilities to deal with, and that's predicated on just how weak the remaining creatures in this world are. If a vampire would be hard-pressed to overcome a creature to create their first spawn, then the likelihood of an undead uprising diminishes greatly.

Edit: Mind Flayers can apply the Voidmind template to "any living aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider (referred to hereafter as the base creature) of Tiny to Huge size," so I'm not sure I'd say they're super dependent on humanoids, either, although again they'd have to be able to overcome that first prey to start building up their forces. I'm not sure that there's an in-universe reason for why they'd be any more able to do this than before, however, or at least not a reason as compelling as the absence of turn/rebuke undead empowering the vampires.

[One Step Two]

Just out of your examples, vampires can include monstrous humanoids, ghosts can also include 7 other types besides humanoids (again including monstrous humanoids), and zombie/skeletons have no require base types. Vampires could become a threat if they are able to build a critical mass of low-HD monstrous humanoid subservient vampires, use them to overpower higher HD monstrous humanoids, drain them, etc... Of course, vampires have their own vulnerabilities to deal with, and that's predicated on just how weak the remaining creatures in this world are. If a vampire would be hard-pressed to overcome a creature to create their first spawn, then the likelihood of an undead uprising diminishes greatly.

Edit: Mind Flayers can apply the Voidmind template to "any living aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider (referred to hereafter as the base creature) of Tiny to Huge size," so I'm not sure I'd say they're super dependent on humanoids, either, although again they'd have to be able to overcome that first prey to start building up their forces. I'm not sure that there's an in-universe reason for why they'd be any more able to do this than before, however, or at least not a reason as compelling as the absence of turn/rebuke undead empowering the vampires.

Where I am getting my general ideas from is the base stock of undead/slaves of those races. For Mind Flayers specifically, the size of their empire depends on how many weaker races they can subjugate, with more monstrous races in the world, it diminishes their reach a little. They can enslave animals, which is short-cutting Animal husbandry for labor is normal, but tool-using species, and sapient minds they like eating are now far harder to get, not because volume has been lowered (assuming we're replacing the missing races with others to match space), but because they are tougher fares due to monsters saves being higher than your average 1HD humanoid.

As for undead, you mentioned growth and power, taking a modest monstrous humanoid and adding a +8 LA limits how far it can grow mechanically speaking, but the same can be said for Clerics and the lower levels they can achieve. I see undead changes are largely neutral, because undead are not often used as an empire unless the setting calls for it. Though there is a loss in some undead diversity, as Wights and Shadows can no-longer propagate themselves, and Liches aren't a thing it seems?

Edit: Though one could argue, much like Draco-Liches exist, there would be a similar ritual to turn an ogre-mage sorcerer into a Lich if they wanted to, or just take the walker in the waste class.

[Gavinfoxx]

Eh, I guess I was more asking, 'what are races with intelligence, not incompatible with a drive to rule, and lots of access to spellcasting', and then I'd wonder what would make up the common races in such a setting?

[Nifft]

I like the idea of a goblinoid empire slowly building itself up over the ruins of the PHB races.

It's a bit like playing Eberron's history backwards.

[One Step Two]

Eh, I guess I was more asking, 'what are races with intelligence, not incompatible with a drive to rule, and lots of access to spellcasting', and then I'd wonder what would make up the common races in such a setting?


Sure, so are we discounting just the PHB races, or all Humanoids? If just removing PHB races, Goblins, Orcs and Kobolds would become the norm, any non-standard Player races that aren't human derived like Planetouched.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd just specify that 'in the absence of most races people would tend to want to play'.

[One Step Two]

Then I would definitely say that it would be a rise of Hobgoblins, their primary diety Maglubiyet (in the forgotten realms at least) is a god of War and Rulership, so their in-game theology lends them to taking a role of leadership and empire building. Their chief antagonistic forces would be led by other goblonoids (opposing nations), Orcs in the wild as nomadic raiders, and Giants of many stripes who have their own lands they rule.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay. So how about let's say 'all races below LA+2 don't exist in the setting'. I would consider hobgoblin a 'standard race', as being relatively easily playable by players. Mostly, I'm wondering what monsters can and would achieve dominance using innate spellcasting/manifesting.

And also 'assume no one ever gets a class, just advancing by racial hit dice'. That can help too. Yes. that works. No classes exist (except maybe Warrior, of which 4 levels exist, because that's typically what most monsters have under that number of levels, so monsters with stat blocks that include Warrior up to 4 don't go away), only creatures with racial hit dice who can advance by racial hit dice. What does that do?

I'm trying to figure out -- what monsters would both WANT to rule, be capable of ruling, and have racial abilities (ie, spellcasting) that allow them to utterly dominate other races or cow them into submission or whatever?

[Nifft]

I'm trying to figure out -- what monsters would both WANT to rule, be capable of ruling, and have racial abilities (ie, spellcasting) that allow them to utterly dominate other races or cow them into submission or whatever?

I mean, there are just so many.

WotC has been in the mod of "new culture == new race" for so long that you've got at least enough content for an entire hardback just on races which could be dropped in.

Beyond that are some actually non-standard races, like Grell and Modrons and Winter Wolves, each of which might have some kind of non-standard society and something resembling a civilization... but those wouldn't look like human civilization.



You're asking too vague a question.

You need to define your palette.

Pick a few monsters as your "this is civilization" and ask about that specific palette.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Do the species have to worry about RHD and LA neutering them on a gameist level (ie, following RAW and crunch), or is, say, an unusually cerebral and hard-working troll as capable of becoming a wizard as a human?

If RHD and LA are factors, then the ones with the lowest of both who are partial to spellcasting (arcane, divine, or psionic) would be the most likely, especially particularly fast-breeding and long-lived ones. Kobolds in particular, under the rule of dragons (of course), would seem the most likely to come to prominence, especially given how well they work together. After them, any race who naturally gets spellcasting close to their RHD+LA and can get along with each other to actually have a society of some sort. I'd suggest illithids, except they require humans to reproduce. So if humans are extinct, illithids likely would be as well. If humans are merely relegated to food and reproductive strategies for the illithids, then they would likely be in charge.

If RHD and LA aren't factors, then any very powerful race with lots of spellcasters and who can work together to build a society would probably come to prominence, especially if they breed quickly and live long. Certain classes of giants, like storm giants, perhaps, especially if they made it a point to step up their reproductive game to compensate for their normally smaller numbers.

[Fizban]

So if the normal elves/dwarves/humans/other normal-ish biped species that tend to gain lots of class levels aren't around... what are the main species that end up ruling vast civilizations and empires that contain many different races within their borders?
First you must ask yourself, why do those races have the vast civilizations and empires? 'Cause the books don't actually have a reason, it's just tradition. A case can be made that the bonus skill points and open-ended bonus feat of Humans mean that Humans can match or beat Elves and Dwarves at anything except nightvision, while having redundant skill specialists and a faster growth rate that gives them far more springback after a war (even the lowest int human has the same skill points as an average member of a race with no Int bonus). But being Medium has disadvantages.

Dragons are the obvious ones, but what else? And where do I find appropriate write-ups for these races?
If you want some forum/article/homebrew treatise/whatever, you might google the Dungeonomicon. I don't agree with a lot of Frank and K's stuff, but do they make a number of important points and extrapolations on the subject. The short version is: 99% of 1 HD humanoids are 1 HD humanoids, so any race with 2+ RHD (and natural armor, and weapons, and. . .) just auto-wins on raw brute force, unless you directly state otherwise. It's particularly noticable in the ocean, where Sea Elves have 1 HD and an Int penalty, vs Sahaugin with 4 RHD and an Int bonus (though ironically, they make a huge deal about the int when it actually has little comparative effect), but Lizardfolk are similarly powerful on land. The next point of comparison is innate magic abilities- Frank and K will make a huge point about Wizards, but it's actually Sp and Su racial abilities with Significant use which make the difference, because PC classes are rare and you need an arbitrary number of arbitrarily leveled PC casters to actually turn a war. The number of which only increases the more powerful your base opponent is.

I don't recall how much a point they make of Cha penalties, but those are the only mechanical justification to prevent Goblins or Kobolds from taking the cake. In which case you end up with Halflings instead.

As for dragons: as written, they don't form empires, so they don't. On terms of starting stats they're born much stronger than PC races, but other monsters can beat them quite handily, and they have the elf problem of taking far too long to reach full power.


If we're talking in a purely numerical superiority sense of which races comes to power because of their monstrous abilities, I would honestly say Giants. Because while there are more powerful monsters, Giants are the most numerous of the non-standard core races with a society that can grow to fill the missing space left behind by core races.
If you're doing ground-up worldbuilding, numbers are not what the giants have. Their food requirements prevent that. But what they do have is enough raw starting power and tool use to subjugate 1 HD humanoids in spite of the numbers disadvantage, crush wyrmlings, and a whole lot of other stuff. The level of tech and city building it takes to make 1 HD humanoids a threat to giants, will be smashed before it's built. Though in order to do so, the giants should probably exist greatly in roaming bands, rather than a centralized city, since their lower numbers might mean they can't put out all the fires at once.

Though, as I wrote that the following thought occurs as which race replaces which missing race. Goblins would replace Dwarves, Giants replacing Elves, Monstrous Humanoids replacing humans perhaps?
Are orcs gone with the removal of half-orcs?
If monsters such as Giants and Dragons are allowed to form empires, than no 1 HD humanoids can form empires- they're slaves at best. If monsters are not allowed to form empires due to their organization and fluff entries lacking it, then the winners of the 1 HD humanoid off are either Kobolds or Goblins, depending on temperature band. Their massively reduced food requirements (essentially zero for Kobolds courtesy of Races of the Dragon, especially in warm areas), fast breeding, and equivalent intelligence and tool use mean they crush Medium humanoids by force of numbers before any higher technology develops. The only question is whether they exterminate, or attempt to enslave their foes, as enslavement might mean that the Mediums eventually have enough numbers to rebel. Or if as above they're prevented from doing so by Cha penalties, then Halflings as the next Small race can still sustain double the Medium numbers even if they don't grow quite as fast as Humans (unless there's another splat Small race of note). Unless you can definitively turn reduced carrying capacity into a race-wide national penalty when pack animals exist, it's Small or nothing.

Of course you could turn it back around and point out that Small creatures will have a much harder time domesticating horses, but they can start with something else then.

Numbers is definitely a fair way to assess this, but if we're being realistic, it would be the creatures with the fewest RHD and LA, right? As they could take levels in magic-using classes, overpower the others, and forge a civilization in the wilderness?
Incorrect. In order to gain levels one must survive, and cities generate leveled NPCs without regard for RHD or LA (because city generation is written assuming 1 HD humanoids of course). Sure, occasionally a 1 HD humanoid might survive long enough to gain some levels, but one adventuring party does not overthrow an entire nation of giants, especially if those giants have formed population centers that grant their own spellcasters and the giants prevent the forming of the same for humanoids. And if a 1st level adventurer has to duck giants, they're not likely to make it to 2nd, so the humanoids actually end up with only their Tribal organization (see MM1 for Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, and Halfling), in which the leveled NPCs may or may not be casters- by failing to specify they could just be warriors, but the presence of so many PC classed NPC tribal humanoids in adventures implies that they could be any class.

In order to organize the fall of a mechanically presumed giant empire, you need to orchestrate them warring each other to the point that a group of humanoids living in a place the giants can't reach can swoop in and take some territory. I posited a list of "special terrain" races in a previous thread, and to be fair, the historical endpoint of pretty much every empire is to fracture and war with themselves, so you can easily have a bunch of fantasy empires rising to claim the ruins of the giants.

This is where one might say that a Dragon empire has an edge by invoking their higher Cha and massive lifespans to say that a Dragon empire would not fall apart. So the giants take over, until they fall upon themselves, at which point dragons which lived outside of giant territory can take over. But I think the dragon fluff pretty dang strongly says that dragons do not form cities, so this requires a significant change to dragons.

The contenders to stand against these low-HD creatures would be the races that have innate spellcasting, like dragons. So I suppose it entirely depends on what criteria we are using to eliminate species from the planet. Is it all races with 1 or fewer RHD vanish without a trace?
Dragons are some of the worst natural magic users out there. By the time a dragon has gained any spellcasting, a humanoid is also an adult and can have the same level of spellcasting. This is where the racial HD/level adjustment comes in because dragons automatically gain spellcasting, but it takes them hundreds of years to get anywhere and have a massive penalty for "adventurers," when a 1 HD humanoid get to to 20th as fast as they can fight their way there (but only if they survive). The dragons' high speed flight and breath weapon are what make them a global contender, but giants can just throw rocks at them.


Well, here's the weird part, almost all traditional undead, especially intelligent ones, are actually dead humanoids! Vampires, Zombies, skeletons, even ghosts tend to be dead humans more than anything. It's certainly a possibility that there will be more monstrous undead, but they are less threatening to them due to their inherent base power.
Most of the conditions that are supposed to give rise to spontaneous undead are also part of the Human condition, cities full of depraved violence and whatnot. But even so, dragons have breath weapons, giants can smash, and if either can form a city then they've got as many free NPC spellcasters as humanoids do.


It's the same reason I discounted aberrations like Mind Flayers, because of their reliance on humanoid slaves! When you remove one of the core parts of their power, they aren't as likely to grow to fill the space the missing races filled without a lot of hand-waving.
Mind Flayers also require a ridiculous number of brains- but that's been done to death and as noted, if there's no humanoids, there's no flayers to require humanoid brains.


Yuan-Ti on the other hand, make much stronger contenders, as well as official representation as percentages of cities (for less of a an "official" bar to clear in forming their own). Each Yuan-Ti has a minimum of 4HD granting +4 BAB and a starting average of 18 hit points, as well as innate mind-control and battlefield control, the ability to shrink into a Tiny viper to facilitate cover use, stealth, and movement, an increase Int and Cha for as much as one decides that's worth (it does mean they mostly match Humans for skills), and that's just the weakest version. They also naturally birth more powerful variants, just to rub it in. The concern over Yuan-Ti in various settings is quite warranted, though again one must wonder how the 1 HD humanoids took power in the first place. It must once again fall to the apparently Charismatic Yuan-Ti destroying their own empire with infighting and leaving enough slaves that new empires formed immediately and have kept them suppressed ever since.



But then they had to go and print the Dragonspawn of Tiamat. Which, as I noticed looking them back up for the Zerg thread, just ruin everyone forever. You want innate spellcasting? How about the Redspawn Arcaniss which is born full-grown with 6th level casting, nearly as fast as a Human can pump out useless infants? How about the Greenspawn Razorfiend, with DR/magic and a breath weapon that make it impossible for 1 HD Humanoids to seriously face? Or the Blackspawn Raider which has both of those in slightly smaller magnitude, but combined with tool use and a spawn rate that can multiply their numbers by 10x every year, with enough of an advantage that facing twice that number in the Small Greenspawn Sneaks is actually preferable?

They did get one thing abundantly correct: the Spawn of Tiamat must be a completely new development, because if they exist before the other empires are 100% solidified across all available territory, it's game over. These are monsters written for fighting leveled PCs, with the spawn rate of "monsters" that are expected to die in droves to 1st level warriors.

Edit:

Okay. So how about let's say 'all races below LA+2 don't exist in the setting'. I would consider hobgoblin a 'standard race', as being relatively easily playable by players. Mostly, I'm wondering what monsters can and would achieve dominance using innate spellcasting/manifesting.

I'm trying to figure out -- what monsters would both WANT to rule, be capable of ruling, and have racial abilities (ie, spellcasting) that allow them to utterly dominate other races or cow them into submission or whatever?
Against other monster-class foes, Yuan-Ti lose their Charm Person and Cause Fear effects, making them significantly worse, so they're back out. Giants remain strong, but the absurd growth rate and innate abilities of the Spawn of Tiamat might let them win anyway, especially if the Arcaniss's innate spellcasting doesn't count as a class.

Though "Giants" isn't much of an answer, as there's so many of them. Unless that means it's the perfect answer and is what One Step Two meant by "most numerous." Giants range from Ogres/Hill Giants, to the Storm Giant with Chain Lightning and Control Weather, the Firbolg with Fast Healing, Trample, and Feeblemind, to the Shadow Giant with at-will Shadow Evocation and Shades (yeah, really, Fiend Folio what?).

And also 'assume no one ever gets a class, just advancing by racial hit dice'. That can help too. Yes. that works. No classes exist (except maybe Warrior, of which 4 levels exist, because that's typically what most monsters have under that number of levels, so monsters with stat blocks that include Warrior up to 4 don't go away), only creatures with racial hit dice who can advance by racial hit dice. What does that do?
Shouldn't be any monster statblocks with multiple levels of warrior- "standard races" have Warrior 1 listings with tribal organization for their MM entries. Monsters which advance by class and have example leveled versions are always Elite with PC classes, as far as I've ever seen. Humanoids which start with more than one hit die use Humanoid hit dice (lizardfolk, gnolls, etc), which are actually worse than warrior levels.

[One Step Two]

Fizban, great breakdown! I did touch briefly on Yuan-Ti, but you made a better case for them, I admittedly was sitting on the fence due to the limitations of Humanoids vs PHB races.

Given everything discussed, from a worldbuilding perspective based on their cultures as written, that is we are assuming there are no re-writes of their existing habits or sociology, there is a good basis for:

Yuan-ti nations, specifically ones that are large enough to cause friction against one another without completely collapsing.
Draconic nations formed of Evil Dragons over-seeing armies of Dragonspawn, infighting would likely cause a great enough powers to become a superpower (Cause that's how evil rolls)
Draconic nations formed of Good Dragons and like-minded followers, and Dragonborn, who actively oppose the aforementioned Evil Dragons, but their numbers could be potentially smaller.
Goblinoids would form martial societies, but without any spellcasting to supplant their skills, they'll be left behind as nothing more than cannon fodder sadly.
I would add that Giant Races might have fiefdoms built on subjugation of lesser races as slaves, such as goblinoids, Kobolds and the like, anything capable of providing them labor to serve their need, but with the removal of any race with an LA of +2 or less, those become much less viable. Lizardfolk perhaps?
Lizardfolk and Orcs would be largely tribal still, not to say you can't have Mongolian-esque empires stemming from those tribal races of course. Centaurs might fill that niche if they became a little more organized?

Edit: Yes that's what I meant when I pointed to Giants as being Numerous, if you decide to tweak their Type as some form of shared caste structure, you can turn out an interesting Empire, the Giant type is interesting and varied, though the Half-Giants will be missed.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx
Okay. So how about let's say 'all races below LA+2 don't exist in the setting'.


Originally Posted by Nifft
You need to define your palette.

Pick a few monsters as your "this is civilization" and ask about that specific palette.

The best approach is probably somewhere between these two extremes.

OP, you're asking a tremendously broad question, and it's difficult to make any kind of comparison--both because of the number of monster species involved, and because the question isn't precise.


Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx
I'm trying to figure out -- what monsters would both WANT to rule, be capable of ruling, and have racial abilities (ie, spellcasting) that allow them to utterly dominate other races or cow them into submission or whatever?

The third point is the only one that can really be answered from the sources, since I think it's a given that most species will want to expand their resource base and reproductive output, and whether a species is capable of ruling isn't always clear from their entries.

If there's a particular end-state you're working towards, then it would be better to present a short-list of monster species for a detailed comparison. Otherwise there are simply too many factors in play, many of them setting-dependent.

[Vizzerdrix]

The answer is simple. Flumphs would dominate in the absence of the current races.

[gogogome]

Devils and Mindflayers. They have very powerful civilizations. The disappearance of the all the standard races leaves no competitors for them but each other.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Devils and Mindflayers. They have very powerful civilizations. The disappearance of the all the standard races leaves no competitors for them but each other.As mentioned, illithids require humans to breed. Nonexistent humans means nonexistent illithids.

So, what are the odds that a lack of humanoid races increases the potential for incursions from the various Upper and Lower Planes, leading to the Material Plane becoming the battleground for the forces of Good and Evil to clash?

[Nifft]

You're asking too vague a question.


The best approach is probably somewhere between these two extremes.

OP, you're asking a tremendously broad question, and it's difficult to make any kind of comparison--both because of the number of monster species involved, and because the question isn't precise.

We're saying effectively the same thing, you're not some midpoint far away from me.

I guess the difference is that I'm proposing a solution?



The answer is simple. Flumphs would dominate in the absence of the current races.

Flumph Paladins might dominate the LG market segment.

Imagine their cries of "SMITE EEEEEVIIIIIIIL!!!" as they Dive / Charge / Leap Attack downwards upon their foes, like a bolt of righteous fury from the blue sky.

Fanatic
Lawful
Unwavering
Merciful
Protective
Holiness

Yeah, that'd be on their eyestalk tabbards.

[Sinner's Garden]

As mentioned, illithids require humans to breed. Nonexistent humans means nonexistent illithids.

I mean, that's not entirely true. They use humans as vehicles, sure, but they aren't just modified humans. I seem to recall an illithid troll or something? Which would, if I do recall correctly, suggest they can use any species they can feasibly overpower.

[Fizban]

Fizban, great breakdown! I did touch briefly on Yuan-Ti, but you made a better case for them, I admittedly was sitting on the fence due to the limitations of Humanoids vs PHB races.
Thank you. I was also focusing on vs PHB races, so they're probably more we won't find until someone does a full books dive.

Draconic nations formed of Good Dragons and like-minded followers, and Dragonborn, who actively oppose the aforementioned Evil Dragons, but their numbers could be potentially smaller.
Dragonborn are a standard race though? And they're a literal dead end, as becoming one makes you sterile.

Goblinoids would form martial societies, but without any spellcasting to supplant their skills, they'll be left behind as nothing more than cannon fodder sadly.
Which brings up an interesting concern regarding the Good dragons: to be frank, most of the Good/Evil conflict is tied up in the weak but numerous and mostly equal humanoid races. Where the main difference actually isn't birth, but choice (on a species scale anyway). With all the squishy pink/etc skins gone, who becomes the new fluffy kitten that needs protecting? For creatures as relentlessly self-sufficient and ostensibly isolationist as dragons, do they even have a mindset to understand Good without examples to learn it from?

I would add that Giant Races might have fiefdoms built on subjugation of lesser races as slaves, such as goblinoids, Kobolds and the like, anything capable of providing them labor to serve their need, but with the removal of any race with an LA of +2 or less, those become much less viable. Lizardfolk perhaps?
What labor do the Giants need? Small humanoids still have nearly or even just as much strength as Medium, and can use pack animals to help, so their food production should not be significantly diminished, but their 1/2 requirement means if anything they start at the renaissance. Even if they can't farm as much, they only need to beat 45% to make a profit. I tend to assume Giants should be fine due to a lower original estimate, but they need eight times as much food per Rules Compendium. The question is whether a Giant can farm eight times as much food as a Medium or Small creature.

And if they can't, then actually they fall all the way back to screwed- because if they need Medium slaves to farm efficiently, the number of giants supported is so small, 1/8 of 10% of the slave population, that the slaves can revolt and beat them with numbers. Meanwhile courtesy of Draconomicon, Dragons can also eat dirt (rather, dragons eat dirt, and Kobolds got it too because yeah).

Unless the problem is the mining. Because that's the other thing a smaller size benefits- the lower carrying capacity reduces the amount of rock they can clear, but you need to clear 4x as much rock for a Large creature to enter a mine. Basically I want to say that mechanically Giants win, but it hinges on resource production that we have no real-world analogue for.

Lizardfolk and Orcs would be largely tribal still, not to say you can't have Mongolian-esque empires stemming from those tribal races of course. Centaurs might fill that niche if they became a little more organized?
Lizardfolk are scaly and susceptible to Charm Person: they're Yuan-Ti pets (or some are for those with the duration anyway). Orcs seem to be out by the OP's restrictions. Raptoran are out, but Aarakocra. . . are also 1 HD so they're out. But Tengu could live on the cliffs maybe? Yeah, someone gonna have to make a list if we want a real battle royale.

Centaurs are another one to do a double-take on, basically Ogres with higher speed and (by most interpretations) a double damage charge with a lance. For that matter, basically anything large would do, Minotaurs for example, but I think most people implicitly get that it's the innate rock throwing that gives giants in general the edge. They're not much better than bows, but heavy composite bows are harder to get than rocks.

Edit: Yes that's what I meant when I pointed to Giants as being Numerous, if you decide to tweak their Type as some form of shared caste structure, you can turn out an interesting Empire, the Giant type is interesting and varied, though the Half-Giants will be missed.
They don't even need a shared biological caste structure- the OP specifically called for empires with a large number of races. If the assortment of giants can feed themselves, they win*, and eventually a shared empire forms, led by the most powerful.

*Aside from dragonspawn and possibly other yet unmentioned uber things.

Like for example, the Sarkrith of Fiend Folio. Large Monstrous Humanoids with many hit dice, they have no offensive magic or rock throwing, but have built in dispelling, resistance, and antimagic, making another potential foil for dragons.

I will refrain from seriously considering Ethergaunts- I pretty much hate on principle any race/monster whose entire shtick is "we're better than you and totally have offscreen alien super tech and wah wah wah," same reason Mind Flayers suck. They all have higher level wizard casting than their aberration hit dice, at will ethereal shifting, partial spell immunity, enslavement ability, etc, deliberately engineered to be a monster entry that yeah would absolutely take over the world. And is thus only usable in a special controlled campaign scenario where the PCs can fight some number of them, destroy a McGuffin, and stop the "return."


But with a serious consideration of whether the monster entries say they *want* to rule, that actually becomes a problem, as again most monsters are deliberately written to be monsters. Dragons want to sit on a pile of treasure. Giants want to maraud. Centaurs want to roam. Rakshasa want to scheme? Genies already have empires on their own planes. Even Sahaugin are listed as wanting to raid coastal settlements, not rule territory. Lizardfolk want to stay in the swamp. Spawn of Tiamat want to take over the world, but arguably in a world not covered in whiny Good humanoid empires they have no reason to exist. Myconids are mentioned in the Dungeonomicon and are definitely cool, and have the ability to make some potions- but they don't so much rule an empire, just spread across the whole underdark if left alone. There's what, Kuo-Toa? Suprisingly tough, adhesive very useful in combat, perfect sentries, some splat support.

Yuan-Ti, sure, except two of their base SLAs aren't useful against other serious monsters (they'd need the Psionic PLA variant, which gives an at-will charm that also works on giants and monstrous humanoids, it's most straight upgrades for all). Ethergaunts and their ilk are a joke, but they do point to aberrations, say hello to Lords of Madness. Aboleth can't walk, Neogi are less scary than Mind Flayers but have better mind control than standard Yuan-Ti, Tsochar are a gimmick, Grell don't even have magic- Beholders have oodles of power but their society is (intentionally I'd say) written to be so dysfunctional they literally can't be a threat on the grand scale. Most monsters are actually pretty well-written to stay as monsters.

If we go to more setting stuff, there's obviously the Phaerim, though they apparently want to destroy everything. They still have the dragon problem, no exact age categories given but it says "centuries old" to reach the final stage (in their LEoF verions). But they have an essentially unbounded reproductive cycle (just need bodies to lay eggs in), and each hatchling does come with 1st level casting.

Aha, here's another candidate, particularly if Giants can't feed themselves: Abeils from MM2, who like Myconids want to just expand forever. I'd forgotten, but they have an at-will Sleep effect and poison. No reproductive data, but a good ratio for the Soldiers in organization, who also have a sonic AoE. They fly slower than dragons but faster than most other things and have Good maneuverability, and the Queen has built in 16th level druid casting. And by a hard reading of that organization, once any pop center hits 130+ they become bigger than the Hive entry, which means a new Queen is immediately generated, takes 25 pops, and leaves. So one capped out "hive-city" produces 16th level druids ridiculously fast. And they aren't mindless or prevented from taking PC classes either.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, I'm trying to figure out what species has 'everything going for them'

Solid stats, decent amount of of starting hit dice, fantastic innate racial casting/manifesting, good movement modes, lawful/cooperative (or at least plausibly civilization-building) mindset, hands with gripping fingers (or some kind of very useful telekinesis), fast reproduction, no extended requirements for raising their young for an excessive amount of time, long lifespan, not specifically prevented from taking class levels, etc. etc.

So far it sounds like 'those variant psionic yuan-ti' are in the lead (apparently, if classes are available, than the can take psychic rogue 1/psionic assassin 1 as their first two class levels. ouch!)? Or maybe Abeils?

And my restrictions are more to say 'I don't really know in particular, but I want to make this location feel really alien without normal types of races'. Don't take the restrictions as hard and fast.

What do you all think of...


...The types of dragons that get spellcasting at a young age?

...Sphinxes?

...Aboleths, including the amphibious variant?

..Zern?

...Lammasu?

...Hags, and their variants?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I mean, that's not entirely true. They use humans as vehicles, sure, but they aren't just modified humans. I seem to recall an illithid troll or something? Which would, if I do recall correctly, suggest they can use any species they can feasibly overpower.Thing is, an attempt at ceremorphosis without a human as a host is possible, but everything I've ever read has said that you end up with something else, like a neothelid, urophion, or a ularithid.

[Nifft]

So far it sounds like 'those variant psionic yuan-ti' are in the lead (apparently, if classes are available, than the can take psychic rogue 1/psionic assassin 1 as their first two class levels. ouch!)? Or maybe Abeils? Yuan-ti are partially human so they might be excluded.

If partial humans are allowed, then I nominate werebears.



...The types of dragons that get spellcasting at a young age?
AFAICT all true dragons can advance by class levels, so all of them could have spellcasting.

[Fizban]

Hags: an assortment of abilities across them, but antisocial.

Sphinxes: I deleted a mention of them, but also fairly antisocial. Ignoring that, the Androsphinx's innate cleric casting and the Gynosphinx's free Symbol and divinatory effects are indeed some powerful magic. They Threskisphinx has druid instead of cleric.

Midgard Dwarves: organized enough there's no reason they couldn't form a city, 8 RHD. Can take a small animal form, curse people who steal from them, and nearly any item regardless of prerequisites. Removing one of the few barriers to magic item abuse, size of city required to support a handful of capable crafters. It's entirely feasible that a clan of these could open up a vein of ludicrous wealth and give themselves abilities that meet or exceed any other proposed creature, until those items are lost (and have a decent pool of hit points to survive initial attacks). Or not.

Marruspawn are engineered as a synergistic combat family: innate wizard casting on top, with monstrous humanoid hit dice, sneak attack, death attack, pounce, and variety of free action AoEs around.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

They Threskisphinx has druid instead of cleric.Threskisphinx? Where dat?

[Falontani]

Ushemoi should be taken into consideration

As well as the variant hobhoblins in mm5.

[Sutr]

I'm going to disagree with the hags comments. Mostly due to the covey thing which mentions that they don't need the combination and that they normally take giants as servants. Hags don't need to fight fair and could be quite immortal. I could easily see hags running an evil democracy or oligarchy switching into different roles and always having one of the covey on top. Green hags in a covey fit this role perfectly and with added animate dead, control weather, and invisibility they can infiltrate and destroy areas without anyone but the covey.

Harpies and Gargoyles have some of the skills needed to for tool use with the additon of flight might be able to form an empire. Gargoyles get you a cool gothic aesthetic where any of the buildings decorations might be a member of the empire.

Those are the ones that jump out that haven't been mentioned in the monster manual.

[One Step Two]

I had a thought overnight, if we want to include some alternate setting (and a little 3rd party material).

Draconians from the Dragonlance Campaign setting have inherent class abilities that come with their Dragon HD. This also includes Noble Draconians which are good. All Draconians are long lived and can breed true unlike Dragonborn.

Another race that could cohabit the world include Formians, their colonies would be stable, supported by queens which have Sorcerer Castings, and taskmasters with Dominate monster. If they keep their workers, lots of healing.

[Alcore]

There are few right ups. If they are not core or well loved they get no attention.

Hobgoblins i see controlling large segments of land. With a bonus to both con & wis they have no real equal without the elves and dwarves.

Followed by kobalds who will likely favor mountains replacing the dwarves.

Then it is a toss up between orcs and goblins (whichever one can lock down a peace time society better will be better represented). Though harpies, minotaur, centaurs and other beastfolk will likely be able to keep the greenskins maintained as they claim their ecological nich (yet are too specialized to actually get anywhere)

[Tvtyrant]

Ethergaunt Devil war. Two lawful evil caste systems battling it out over the universe.

[Fizban]

Threskisphinx? Where dat?
Sandstorm, with the other wacky sphinxes (I went through the Outside books as a group).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sandstorm, with the other wacky sphinxes (I went through the Outside books as a group).Thanks.

I should build one and name him Darude.

[Gavinfoxx]

Threskisphinx? Where dat?

It's in Sandstorm

[Quertus]

The results you get depend a lot on what rules you use.

So, let's suppose, dawn of time, the overpower spawns all the races in small "breeding size" pockets randomly throughout the world. The Fire Giants spawned in the Arctic, or in the water, probably just die, but the ones spawned in warm lands start to form civilizations. Same with every other race.

If the rules are just, "you can't gain levels", that gives different results than "you can't gain levels, *and* no sentient creatures below ECL 4 were spawned", which gives different results than just limiting the starting races.

If creatures *can* gain levels, then whether they gain them through XP vs through city size will drastically impact who gets levels (good luck earning levels as a Dragon, for instance).

Here were my first thoughts for some races that would fare well under at least some rules sets:

Dragons. As others have said, Dragons get automatic advancement, flight, AoE ranged attacks, AC, spells… the incredible ability to subsist off dew (or cola, or dirt, or Otyugh droppings, or anything else)… and the all-important epic spells. With most races lacking the ability to take class levels (either because it's banned, or because of crippling ECL), Dragons will be among the very few with access to *real* power.

But they're less "rulers" and more… referees. Any rules that they care to impose, the other races had best listen.

Gods. 20 racial outsider HD, great variety of skills, and domains. They're reproduction is… uncharted, but there seems precedent for them to be born "fully grown". Racial and city/country deities are likely, leading to greater world stability… maybe.

As an added bonus, few races can make it to the outer planes to actually kill the gods, or get Knowledge: Religion to have even the slightest clue how their powers work.

By themselves, though, the gods starve to death.

Illithids. If there aren't pesky high-level adventurers, Illithids can gobble up the tasty brains much more readily with their at-will AoE stun lock.

If there aren't low HD humanoids? Ogre brains are readily harvestable… but making new Illithids is… tricky. Higher HD Anthropomorphic humanoids, maybe?

Were-T-Rex Death Giants. Chomp! (AFB, no idea if that's actually legal, but crazy HD, crazy powers, DR 15/silver sounds formidable).

And, of course, Formian Taskmasters with their Dominate Monster lockdown, and the crazy (but derivative, and so potentially disqualified) race(s) of Dragonspawn.

[Rhyltran]

I ran a campaign like this once. The core races changed to thus: (Note it was based on the idea that the core races ceased existing and not only that but races connected with them. This means no drow. No deep dwarves. No orcs.)

Hobgoblins (Replaced Elves/Humans to a degree), Goblins (Replaced Halflings), Kobolds (Replaced Gnomes), Formians (Replaced Dwarves), and Bugbear (Replaced Half Orcs.).

[Quertus]

A few more contenders for consideration:

If they are able to earn XP, Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales seem strong. Land and sea, good enough at earning XP that they actually get talked about on the Playground.

If (and only if) they can gain levels - and *especially* if levels are based on population, favoring smaller creatures even more - then Pixies and (Dark) Petals have small size, great natural camouflage, and initiative-winning Dex going for them.

Black Ethergaunts have some nice casting, but… they will never hit epic spells.

If humans exist, but cannot gain levels, Slaad, with their massive implant-powered reproduction, and greater power than Vampire commoners, seem strong.

And, of course, how could I ignore Devils? All the immortality of gods, with instant replacement if killed, massive powers, start "full grown", lots with flight and/or at-will Teleport. The only reason they aren't running the show is if they don't want to. :smallwink:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

By themselves, though, the gods starve to death.

This is setting-dependent, actually. Gods are only dependent on worship in a handful of settings, most notably FR, and in the others the gods came before mortals and are not dependent on them. So basically gods win by default unless the DM specifies otherwise.

[Quertus]

This is setting-dependent, actually. Gods are only dependent on worship in a handful of settings, most notably FR, and in the others the gods came before mortals and are not dependent on them. So basically gods win by default unless the DM specifies otherwise.

Well, even better - Deocracy for the win?

(Ignoring "setting can change it", is there a "default" behavior for deities in 3e?)

[Gavinfoxx]

Default for 3e is whatever it is in Greyhawk.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Pretty much, yeah. And in Greyhawk the gods not only don't need mortal worship, but Boccob is one of the top three strongest Oeridian gods and goes by "the Uncaring" because he actively does not give a damn about any mortal worshipers he may or may not have.

[Quertus]

Sounds like gods are the clear winner, then… so much so, in fact, that it almost feels like any setting that (didn't have leveling and) hasn't changed the rules and isn't dominated by gods lacks versimilitude.

-----

Tiers of Races on an unleveled playing field

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than races that specialize in that thing.

Dragons.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 races, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks.

Gods, Devils (collectively). Maybe Dragonspawn (collectively).

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as races that specialize in that area.

Were-T-Rex Death Giants, Giants (collectively), Formians (collectively), (Black) Ethergaunts, Slaad, Beholders (default and collectively).

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.

Tarrasques, Pixies, Illithids, Vampires, Ravid, Formian Taskmasters, most Dragonspawn individually, Gelatinous Cubes.

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.

Lizardfolk, Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales.

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise.

Ogres, Mudmen.

Tier 7: banned (most would be Tier 6 if allowed, unless leveling were used)

Humans, elves, goblins, orcs, kobolds, Warforged, constructs (including Maugg), maybe derivative races like Dragonspawn.

-----

Any you think I placed in the wrong Tier? Any I missed that you think should be added?

(EDIT: there seems to be a lot of love for Yuan-Ti, and Midgard Dwarves sound promising.)

[CIDE]

It depends on setting and the scenario. In a scenario where the races never existed we may get a vastly different outcome than in one where they existed but, Like the Dwemer of Elder Scrolls, just all vanished at once. Also, settings with dictate a few things. Humans and why they were so prolific is easy to figure out but what about Dwarves? Elves? in some settings they're a sort of "legacy" race that established a foot hold before younger races even existed. Others, I don't think they're thoroughly explained as to why or how they have such a foothold except that it's the status quo.

In a scenario where they vanish many civilizations built into the wilderness that don't have any immediate non-PC neighbors (like a Yuan Ti settlement nearby) will probably just get swallowed and get lost to the ages. Then, it'll probably start with younger races with shorter lifespans that can reproduce quickly. With that in mind, we don't know the full life cycle of a lot of monster races to try to figure out which ones actually fit the bill.


The only way things like Giants or Dragons or other slow to reproduce and long lived races are going to take over is if they become leaders in multiracial nations. They aren't going to have the numbers to brute force their way into a territory and hold it for themselves alone. Likewise, a lot of monster races already have built in limitations as to why they aren't running the show. Anti-social or insane behavior, territorial with their own kind, etc.