OOTS #1204 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[One Step Two]

Durkon, you mad-dwarf! What are you doing! I love it!

[Squire Doodad]

You can tell whatever happens next won't work out because we're like 30 pages in instead of 250.

[Ruck]

One thing I think about in a lot of my favorite dramas, especially the TV shows that manage to create a situation where the protagonist gets out of one crisis only by creating a new one, is the sense that the action, the conflict, is always here before you're ready for it.

Anyway,

[Peelee]

.....oh. Oh my.

That I did not expect.

[Cicciograna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG3IWHpQVJg

All of them.

[Hiro Quester]

"They can't fly, I don't think"
"Good thinking"

Somehow I find this paring hilarious. Excellent! (Though it would be a better backhanded compliment if Roy had been talking to Elan.)

[Peelee]

You can tell whatever happens next won't work out because we're like 30 pages in instead of 250.
Well, he did say this book would be the last, no matter how long. Which also means no matter how short!:smalltongue:

One thing I think about in a lot of my favorite dramas, especially the TV shows that manage to create a situation where the protagonist gets out of one crisis only by creating a new one, is the sense that the action, the conflict, is always here before you're ready for it.

Anyway,

I, too, enjoyed The Office.

[NerdyKris]

He didn't use his last sending spell to contact him.

[SociopathFriend]

Gods damn it Durkon.

[Ruck]

I like how Roy actually figures it out in panel 6, he's just now got a much more immediate crisis to handle.

(Hey, maybe this is where "invisible whatever from the final strip of book 6 who was only on one page shows up to bail out Durkon and be a temporary ally.")

[Hiro Quester]

That first line, connecting to the previous comic about Hinjo trying to teach Elan "go". I didn't get why telling him to leave took 30 minutes, at first. And now I can't stop laughing.

[NerdyKris]

You'd think Roy would have learned to stop being so specific by this point.

[AstralFire]

Now we shall see if this is a confirmation of Durkon's wisdom score or of his intelligence score

[Peelee]

The more I look at it, the more I have just the tiniest art issue; I assume the glasses were supposed to make Kraagor look goofy, but they actually look pretty good on him!

[Lord Raziere]

You can tell whatever happens next won't work out because we're like 30 pages in instead of 250.

Yyuuuuuup. This will/may not end well. Hopefully this will just be the start with an argument but lead to something more action-packed and dangerous. before leading to the real thing that will help. hopefully.

the question is if the genre-savvy nature of this comic will apply, or whether this is one of those points where it won't. But if it does work, it wouldn't be very dramatic. Durkon is probably one the least genre-savvy people here despite his high Wis. (or perhaps because of it- a lot of tropes actually run against common sense or someone being observant enough to not do something dramatic, and knowing about tropes and relying them is less wise for actually living one's life)

the twist might be that somehow the bugbear woman becomes the new priest of the Dark One and decides to turn over a new leaf rather than Redcloak because of this. if its her and not some other bugbear.

or maybe its one of those things Durkon has to say and it just has to stew over in Redcloak's mind.

[Ron Miel]

Super-Lawful Durkon breaks his word and disobeys Roy? Last thing I would expect.

[dmc91356]

Wow, newly minted Durkon 2.0 is quite a bit more "I'm a gonna do it my way" than old original Durkon 1.0.

I am excited to see how this is going to turn out.

[LunarDrop]

Oh, wow, Durkon... ballsy move, dude.

Also, I will never get tired of Vaarsuvius just carrying Belkar in the air.

[PBlades]

Hahaha, you madlad! Go Durkon!

I wonders if he prepared a way to get out of this - far as he knows, first thing Redcloak would summon Xykon and smack him

[Lheticus]

...Oh HEL no.

[Fitzclowningham]

Is there any reason to think Redcloak does/doesn't recognize Durkon?

[Squire Doodad]

Hahaha, you madlad! Go Durkon!

I wonders if he prepared a way to get out of this - far as he knows, first thing Redcloak would summon Xykon and smack him

I mean, he did apparently do a Sending. We don't know what it said nor how the reply went (for all we know, Redcloak is willing to talk on neutral grounds, though Xykon may have other ideas), but we know that there was probably some forewarning.

[Ronnoc]

I will admit I absolutely did not see that coming. Honestly I'm slightly optimistic because I can't see an interesting outcome for this immediately going south.

[littlebum2002]

Wait, someone totally called this in the last thread! I need to go find it.

EDIT: Found it. This is pretty impressive.


I just noticed that in the third panel Durkon is frowning and facing in a different direction from the others, and after that we see the other five members of the Order re-corporealize on the ledge, but not Durkon.

It’s probably nothing, just coincidence - can’t fit every character in every strip - but does anyone thing Durkon might have gone to try to talk to one of the members of Team Evil?

[bravelove]

Is there any reason to think Redcloak does/doesn't recognize Durkon?

Knowing Redcloack he's probably just REALLY confused on why on earth Durkon is even here

[RedScholarGypsy]

When your god tells you to do something, you get it done.

I'm optimistic that it won't fail catastrophically. The fact that the fiends are the big bads of the entire series means this could actually work out in a neutral manner.

[3SecondCultist]

I don’t see this particular conversation ending well, but I can see an honest convo between Durkon and Redcloak setting up the dominoes for Redcloak to turn on Xykon later in the book.

Durkon will likely try to share the whole ‘four colour gambit’ with the Dark One, which Redcloak will initially reject... only for him to get proof later on in the book and will cinch his eventual turn. :smallamused:

[Peelee]

Wait, someone totally called this in the last thread! I need to go find it.

EDIT: Found it. This is pretty impressive.
I just noticed that in the third panel Durkon is frowning and facing in a different direction from the others, and after that we see the other five members of the Order re-corporealize on the ledge, but not Durkon.

It’s probably nothing, just coincidence - can’t fit every character in every strip - but does anyone thing Durkon might have gone to try to talk to one of the members of Team Evil?



Ten points to the good lady, I say! I remember that but absolutely didn't think it was the case (though I did think Durkon went off somewhere else).

[understatement]

holy crap.

Edit: Now that I rented my spot on first page...HOLY CRAP. Where the heck is Xykon? What's Durkon's backup plan? Roy is going to non-literally kill Durkon when he finds out what happened.

Also, love Belkar and V's casual friend(?)ship. They've come a long way. And Redcloak's expression was kind of hilarious.

[Grey Watcher]

The more I look at it, the more I have just the tiniest art issue; I assume the glasses were supposed to make Kraagor look goofy, but they actually look pretty good on him!

Xykon doesn't have ranks in Craft (Graffiti).


Is there any reason to think Redcloak does/doesn't recognize Durkon?

Come to think of it, the only times Durkon and Redcloak have seen each other was across large, chaotic battlefields (Xykon's throne room at Chez Dorukan, the Battle of Azure City). Notably, Vampire Durkon had not yet caught back up to the Order when Team Evil teleported out of the desert. So, yeah, it's actually plausible that Redcloak never got enough of a look at Durkon to be able to recognize him.

[PBlades]

I mean, he did apparently do a Sending. We don't know what it said nor how the reply went (for all we know, Redcloak is willing to talk on neutral grounds, though Xykon may have other ideas), but we know that there was probably some forewarning.

Do you think he goes behind Roy's back directly like that? I think it fits Durkon to a tee to take a personal risk - maybe lies or omitted to imply he's here alone - and take the opportunity once he seeks Redcloak alone to come talk to him.

Which reminds me, I wonder why Redcloak and Oona decided they'd share intel in an inconspicuous area behind some building.

[hungrycrow]

Welp, I was sure that Durkon wouldn't try something like this, but I was super wrong.

[FrankPS]

Now we shall see if this is a confirmation of Durkon's wisdom score or of his intelligence score

Yes :smile:

[Zhorn]

...Oh HEL no.
oh Valhalla yes!

Looking forwards to how this will play out.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Windscion]

* That's not Oona. No pouch.
* Unclear who is giving, who is receiving the scroll
* Durkon isn't actually there, unless he windwalked again. RC and the BB have tracks; Durkon doesn't. Wait, Durkon never set down with the others, did he?

[Aeson]

Which reminds me, I wonder why Redcloak and Oona decided they'd share intel in an inconspicuous area behind some building.
I don't think that that's Oona; Oona wears an antlered (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html) mask (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) whereas whoever this one has a bunch of small horns. It does look like this one could be the one in the first panel of 1036 who's looking up and back as Oona lands in the village, though.

[Peelee]

My guess is it's a shaman (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html).

[LadyEowyn]

I CALLED IT! And you mocked and ignored me for even suggesting the possibility!

I'm going to be shallow and just take a moment to freaking gloat.

From previous thread:


I just noticed that in the third panel Durkon is frowning and facing in a different direction from the others, and after that we see the other five members of the Order re-corporealize on the ledge, but not Durkon.

It’s probably nothing, just coincidence - can’t fit every character in every strip - but does anyone thing Durkon might have gone to try to talk to one of the members of Team Evil?


I don't see why not. Durkon has been secretly aligned with Team Evil since the first book, so it's completely in keeping with his character for him to betray The Order at this point.


*crickets*

EDIT: Ah, upon reading this thread I realize I have already been credited. Now I feel unsportsmanlike. :D

Thanks, littlebum2002. Thanks, Peelee.

[Zaclock]

I realize now that we haven't seen Minrah on the ledge either (and being the new kid around, the Order doesn't pay enough attention to her presence yet). She probably noticed Durkon going into another direction and decided to follow him.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean that's interesting.

[Gift Jeraff]

Huh, I kinda predicted Durkon contacting Redcloak against Roy's orders with how ominous that penultimate panel of #1200 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1200.html) seemed, but actually going up to him in person? And this early into the book?! I guess in hindsight, this is still technically obeying Roy's order to not use his last Sending spell to contact Redcloak.

Continuing side effect of Durkon "having too many thoughts" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) due to the unusual way he defeated the vampire spirit?

[understatement]

* Durkon isn't actually there, unless he windwalked again. RC and the BB have tracks; Durkon doesn't. Wait, Durkon never set down with the others, did he?

He didn't, so he must have landed (out of nowhere) in front of Redcloak. That's why RC looks surprised.

So does this mean Durkon gets initiative? :smallbiggrin:


I CALLED IT! And you mocked and ignored me for even suggesting the possibility!

I'm going to be shallow and just take a moment to freaking gloat.

From previous thread:

Your prediction was awesome!

I'm definitely worried for Durkon now. How is he going to reunite back with the Order, though? (And this is the first interaction between Redcloak and a member of the Order...I can't wait).

[Corian]

Super-Lawful Durkon breaks his word and disobeys Roy? Last thing I would expect.

Roy told him to not use his last sending spell, so he did not. :smallamused:

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd by Gift Jeraff. Well done. And while I'm on kudos, Lady Eowyn, I think some gloating is quite justified. Enjoy!

[Dion]

I CALLED IT! And you mocked and ignored me for even suggesting the possibility!

I'm going to be shallow and just take a moment to freaking gloat.

From previous thread:

So, I am very impressed by your observation and your prediction. Kudos.

But, I there’s still room to be impressed with Emanick for recognizing that Durkon has been aligned with Team Evil since the beginning. :tongue:

[Ron Miel]

Okay, in #1200 Roy decided to wait before contacting Redcloak. Durkon appears to agree.

Now, technically Durkon only promised not to use sending. He's staying within the exact wording of his agreement. But he's certainly going against the intended meaning.

Is that Lawful, as defined by D&D?

[Hatu]

Not what I was expecting, but it will almost certainly get some sort of result.

-H

[Corian]

Okay, in #1200 Roy decided to wait before contacting Redcloak. Durkon appears to agree.

Now, technically Durkon only promised not to use sending. He's staying within the exact wording of his agreement. But he's certainly going against the intended meaning.

Is that Lawful, as defined by D&D?

Letter of the law is pretty much what lawful is about (intent is a chaotic consideration.)

[Ruck]

When your god tells you to do something, you get it done.

I'm optimistic that it won't fail catastrophically. The fact that the fiends are the big bads of the entire series means this could actually work out in a neutral manner.

Come again?

[Gusmo]

Whoa. A sending spell would have been one thing, because only Redcloak would receive it and he could work with Durkon behind everybody's back. Now he's just standing there for anyone to potentially see, including Xykon perhaps?

[Dion]

When the encounter goes south, Durkon can claim that he is there by himself.

I wouldn’t expect that story to hold up very long under questioning, because Xykon and RedCloak are both a lot more perceptive than they pretend to be, and because Durkon is a terrible liar.

But he might be able to give the five characters on the ledge time to come up with a backup plan, except...

Minrah. I suspect nobody knows where she is right now. That isn’t going to be good.

[Peelee]

Letter of the law is pretty much what lawful is about (intent is a chaotic consideration.)

That's not in any alignment breakdown I've ever read, I gotta say.

[facw]

I CALLED IT! And you mocked and ignored me for even suggesting the possibility!


I was coming here to note that you raised this possibility, but the second page is clearly much too late!

[RatedArgh]

Wow... just went back and read the previous comic and saw Durkon’s face. Great job hiding this in plain sight, Giant!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Excellent inductive reasoning by Roy to guess that they may have been flown out.

Wow, certainly did not expect that from Durkon (and kudos to LadyEowyn for guessing it)! He really is taking more initiative now. And yet somehow I can’t see this ending all that well.

[RatedArgh]

I mean, he did apparently do a Sending. We don't know what it said nor how the reply went (for all we know, Redcloak is willing to talk on neutral grounds, though Xykon may have other ideas), but we know that there was probably some forewarning.

I actually think this is him getting around Roy’s orders not to use his last sending. He’s pretty lawful so he’ll follow at least the letter of the order, if not the intent.

[Vessyra]

I really, really hope Durkon thought of a back-up plan. I'm hopeful that Redcloak will at least give Durkon a chance to talk, though it's still quite likely something, at some point, goes wrong. I'm wondering if perhaps Minrah could have anything to do with theoretical escape plans, though I can't figure out what she could do that Durkon can't. Maybe she's floating above, to let the rest of the Order know if something goes wrong?

[Ninja Dragon]

Now comes Redcloak's ultimate test of letting go of his past sacrifices for the greater good of goblinkind.

Which... I was expecting to happen at least 200 chapters after this one.

[SpectralTime]

...And here I thought V's conspicuously-unrevealed long-range communication spell was to Redcloak and Durkon's sheepish reaction to Roy's saying not to use his was 'cause he'd already done it in some form.

[jwhouk]

This is going to backfire spectacularly.

EDIT: Kudos to LadyEowyn for her foresight. :)

And no, he didn't disobey the letter of the law ("Don't use a Sending to talk to Redcloak."). I also suspect that Minrah is there as backup - and perhaps as an alibi. "We came alone."

[Lheticus]

I can just picture Thor greeting Durkon in the afterlife again, and the first word out of his mouth when Durkon sees him again is, "...Bruh."

[RatedArgh]

* That's not Oona. No pouch.
* Unclear who is giving, who is receiving the scroll
* Durkon isn't actually there, unless he windwalked again. RC and the BB have tracks; Durkon doesn't. Wait, Durkon never set down with the others, did he?

He doesn’t have tracks leading up to where he’s standing, but he definitely is making an imprint in the snow. Thus he’s there but just used the cloud walk a little differently than the rest of the order.

And Minrah wasn’t looking when he left, but I assume she saw him and went after? Maybe she’ll show up a few panels later than D as she had to catch up.

[Windscion]

He doesn’t have tracks leading up to where he’s standing, but he definitely is making an imprint in the snow. Thus he’s there but just used the cloud walk a little differently than the rest of the order.

And Minrah wasn’t looking when he left, but I assume she saw him and went after? Maybe she’ll show up a few panels later than D as she had to catch up.

Yeah, I thought those were shadows, but you are correct.
I wonder: is this new bugbear the mysterious ally? Oh wait, it's probably Recloak's niece polymorphed into a (male) bugbear.

[WindStruck]

Wow, good luck, Durkon. You'll need it! :smallbiggrin:

[AlphaNone]

Well, that's certainly one way to start things off. Off the top of my head, I'm wondering: have Durkon and Redcloak seen each other since Dorukan's throne room?

[Yirggzmb]

Continuing side effect of Durkon "having too many thoughts" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) due to the unusual way he defeated the vampire spirit?

It might also just be the result of having been forced to watch his life over and realizing that he'd always been a bit of a passenger in his own life. I see it as him maybe trying to be a little more assertive about what he feels is right, and getting this right is a mission from Thor afterall.

[understatement]

Well, that's certainly one way to start things off. Off the top of my head, I'm wondering: have Durkon and Redcloak seen each other since Dorukan's throne room?

No. It's possible Redcloak saw Durkon through his telescope during the Battle of Azure City, but if he did he made no mention of it (so it can probably assumed he didn't).

[Zaclock]

Well, that's certainly one way to start things off. Off the top of my head, I'm wondering: have Durkon and Redcloak seen each other since Dorukan's throne room?

Guys... You do remember that Durkon witnessed Kudzu's creation, right?

[Peelee]

Guys... You do remember that Durkon witnessed Kudzu's creation, right?

Well, I should certainly hope so!

[understatement]

Guys... You do remember that Durkon witnessed Kudzu's creation, right?

Durkon witnessed it firsthand!

But yeah, that would be awkward. Kind of a good thing Redcloak has only one eye now.

[facw]

Well, that's certainly one way to start things off. Off the top of my head, I'm wondering: have Durkon and Redcloak seen each other since Dorukan's throne room?

Presumably they saw each other near Hinjo's junk https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html

[mjasghar]

The more I look at it, the more I have just the tiniest art issue; I assume the glasses were supposed to make Kraagor look goofy, but they actually look pretty good on him!
Strange they bad guys haven’t destroyed the statue
It’s the sort of thing Xykon would do

[Ghosty]

When the encounter goes south, Durkon can claim that he is there by himself.

I wouldn’t expect that story to hold up very long under questioning, because Xykon and RedCloak are both a lot more perceptive than they pretend to be, and because Durkon is a terrible liar...

Depending on how RC takes whatever Durkon has to say, Xykon may never find out. This becomes a private conversation again with one Destruction or Slay Living from RC. Not like RC hasn't had to rapidly improvise a reason to Xykon before about a seemingly impetuous blue on blue. "Cost of doing business."

I hope Minrah doesn't blow it. I doubt she will; in fact, I can see her being the one that sways RC enough that he thinks Durkon's proposal over for a bit.

Another interesting question is, why is RC not resting after what's likely been a day of crawling 5 or 6 dungeons. I'd think he'd be too tired to be conferring privately with a bugbear shaman, though maybe RC's receiving something really useful like a map, a scroll of some high-level healing spell, or the like.

[Emanick]

I CALLED IT! And you mocked and ignored me for even suggesting the possibility!

I'm going to be shallow and just take a moment to freaking gloat.

To be fair, I was just being silly. Durkon talking to Redcloak =/= Durkon betraying the Order. I actually thought your idea was intriguing, just kind of unlikely. Hopefully you didn't actually take it as mockery.

That said, you absolutely get all the points for calling out the twist ahead of time. That's a surprisingly rare feat.

Although, as Dion pointed out upthread...


But, I there’s still room to be impressed with Emanick for recognizing that Durkon has been aligned with Team Evil since the beginning. :tongue:

... it does happen.


Another interesting question is, why is RC not resting after what's likely been a day of crawling 5 or 6 dungeons. I'd think he'd be too tired to be conferring privately with a bugbear shaman, though maybe RC's receiving something really useful like a map, a scroll of some high-level healing spell, or the like.

Redcloak prepares spells at dusk, then spends a few hours dungeon-crawling, and then goes back and spends the next 20 or so hours back at camp, probably. He only needs eight or so of those hours to sleep. It's not clear when he sleeps, but it's not strange that he's awake right now.

[Lvl45DM!]

You can see his Wind Walk cloud leave in the previous strip!!

Giant youuuuuu tricky sonovawitch!

Brilliant!

EDIT: No you can't i need to read the thread before posting.


Still. Giant is a tricky SOW

[tawnyterror]

it feels like v has become nothing but a tool as of late! respectably so- as I suppose the path to repentance doesn't put "personal expression" on their mind.

[Schroeswald]

wow, I don't check the forums for a bit and this comic gets posted, the biggest shock I've had in awhile at this.

[tawnyterror]

also- its very exciting for me that this page came out immediately after I got a chance to buy and read start of darkness for the first time..!-
learning more about redcloak and his plan and then suddenly that all starts coming together..(I presume)

[JumboWheat01]

I imagine there's very little market for naga toenail clippers.

[Squire Doodad]

I imagine there's very little market for naga toenail clippers.

Nonsense, they're quite valuable among people who collect chicken teeth.

[The MunchKING]

Well, THAT'S not Sending, I guess.


Is there any reason to think Redcloak does/doesn't recognize Durkon?

In their past confrontations, Durkon has always been kind of a back ground guy, Roy gets in peoples' faces and shouts about his issues, and Durkon just does healing. So it's conceivable that Redcloak doesn't know him from any other Dwarf and is just curious about what a Dwarf is doing this far north and in Bugbear territory.

[Psyren]

Super-Lawful Durkon breaks his word and disobeys Roy? Last thing I would expect.

Technically he didn't. He didn't use Sending :smalltongue:

[Raven777]

Okay, in #1200 Roy decided to wait before contacting Redcloak. Durkon appears to agree.

Now, technically Durkon only promised not to use sending. He's staying within the exact wording of his agreement. But he's certainly going against the intended meaning.

Is that Lawful, as defined by D&D?

I would say it is neutral. Too clever for an Archon, too rules-lawyer-y for an Eladrin.

[The MunchKING]

Okay, in #1200 Roy decided to wait before contacting Redcloak. Durkon appears to agree.

It may be that he intends to sell the idea that he's alone and on a personal mission from Thor to hash out a deal with Redcloak as the main Cleric of the Dark One. We've seen Durkon fall back on "I'm ordered on a mission by Thor" before to avoid talking about stuff he doesn't want to and just letting people assume what they want from that.

If that's his game, he will still be giving the others the tactical advantage of surprise (inso much as they can), but still be trying to do his mission. So he agrees to Roy's points, but disagree on how necessary talking is.

[DaOldeWolf]

A better question to be asking right now, where is Minrah? :smallwink:

[Petrocorus]

Durkon, this is worse than Sending.


Guys... You do remember that Durkon witnessed Kudzu's creation, right?
I don't see what it has to do with RC.

[facw]

In their past confrontations, Durkon has always been kind of a back ground guy, Roy gets in peoples' faces and shouts about his issues, and Durkon just does healing. So it's conceivable that Redcloak doesn't know him from any other Dwarf and is just curious about what a Dwarf is doing this far north and in Bugbear territory.

He did sort of duel with Durkon here: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html

Also a few strips before that, Durkon was a giant and crushed a bunch of goblins which seems like the sort of thing that would get Redcloak's attention.

[Yirggzmb]

I don't see what it has to do with RC.


I assume that was a typo, as Redcloak ended up watching Durkon and Hilgya back in #82 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html), along with the MitD. Whether he'll recognize Durkon from that or not is another question.

[Rogar Demonblud]

In their past confrontations, Durkon has always been kind of a back ground guy, Roy gets in peoples' faces and shouts about his issues, and Durkon just does healing. So it's conceivable that Redcloak doesn't know him from any other Dwarf and is just curious about what a Dwarf is doing this far north and in Bugbear territory.

Durkon had a starring role in some impromptu dwarf porn that Redcloak and MITD watched with popcorn. That ought to leave an impression. Even if it doesn't, Durkon is an enemy race at a top secret base. Redcloak has no reason not to kill him next panel and many reasons he should.

And I've lived through this thing in many games. You're trying to figure out a way around a serious power imbalance (and Xykon alone should be enough to smoke the Order) and one person decides to throw away most of your advantages, usually for spotlight-hogging reasons. Never yet avoided a TPK in that mess.

[understatement]

Durkon had a starring role in some impromptu dwarf porn that Redcloak and MITD watched with popcorn. That ought to leave an impression. Even if it doesn't, Durkon is an enemy race at a top secret base. Redcloak has no reason not to kill him next panel and many reasons he should.

And I've lived through this thing in many games. You're trying to figure out a way around a serious power imbalance (and Xykon alone should be enough to smoke the Order) and one person decides to throw away most of your advantages, usually for spotlight-hogging reasons. Never yet avoided a TPK in that mess.

Redcloak might be very low on spells, though. He probably-definitely blew his highest ones after the dungeon trawl.

Not saying Durkon isn't smoked, 'cause he totally is. But watching Durkon die a third time would blow. A lot.

[Grey Watcher]

I would say it is neutral. Too clever for an Archon, too rules-lawyer-y for an Eladrin.

Durkon has exploited wording loopholes before (eg telling Miko that the five of them hadn't left their Azure City prison cells). So this isn't entirely unprecedented, even if it's a fair bit more extreme than he's done before.


I assume that was a typo, as Redcloak ended up watching Durkon and Hilgya back in #82 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html), along with the MitD. Whether he'll recognize Durkon from that or not is another question.

That's going to be real awkward if Redcloak remembers that. Still maybe he only saw Durkon from the back.

Of his head, get your minds out of the gutter!

[danielxcutter]

Honestly, ignoring dramatic conventions, I just can’t see how Durkon’s decision won’t completely destroy the Order. Redcloak is not going to listen, and either Durkon dies or is captured, and even if he does run away there goes surprise. And even *with* surprise, there’s no guarantee that the Order would be able to take down Team Evil anyways.

I trust the Giant, but the way this is going, it’s headed for straight TPK.

[Bedinsis]

Well that most certainly was a curveball I did not see coming.

[Anansiil]

Good lord! Who else choked with surprise???
Kudos to Durkon for following a good plan and all, but Wow!

[Breccia]

Unbelievable. I know plot requires some artistic license or that we might have to suspend some disbelief, but this goes too far.

No way did Durkon pass a Stealth check.

Also, prepare for an epic battle between clerics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)!

[Wildstag]

Both of the clerics are missing from the cliff scene, though the auxiliary cleric isn't in view in 1204 either. Interesting. I wonder if she's doing her own thing right now or if she's just hiding as backup for Durkon.

[factotum]

I love all the people asking if Durkon doing this is Lawful or not. There's one simple thing to remember here: Durkon has orders *direct from his God* that he needs to contact Redcloak and get him on-side for the "rescue the world" plan. Why does anybody remotely believe that *Roy*'s orders matter in that circumstance? Whatever else may be the case, Durkon is Roy's friend, he's not his slave, and he's been devoted to Thor for a lot longer than he's even known Roy.

[Heksefatter]

I didn't see that one coming, but man I'm curious.

[Wowlock]

Well, time to see if Red Cloak is actually smart or just the typical dumb hench-goblin.


If he doesn't agree, the world is doomed, goblins and even his own god will probably be Snarl-food.

[CriticalFailure]

He did it. The mad lad actually did it. I bet this backfires spectacularly in the short term but ends up being an essential first step in getting Redcloak on board with betraying Xykon and defeating the Snarl in the end.

[Kurald Galain]

We haven't heard this one in a long time...

"I think I just failed a spot check!"

[PraetorDragoon]

I think that a dwarf casually strolling in the hobgoblin village and having intent to talk would be just surprising enough for Redcloak to go talk rather than blast first, or at least aim for a capture for information. And if Durkon mentions that the Gods want to contact the Dark One, Redcloak will definitly want to know more, as he is likely to assume they know more about the Plan than he expects. (and keep him away from Xykon, as Xykon may not learn the true purpose of the ritual.)

[Cerlis]

guess we are going to get this out of the way :X

[Cerlis]

Honestly, ignoring dramatic conventions, I just can’t see how Durkon’s decision won’t completely destroy the Order. Redcloak is not going to listen, and either Durkon dies or is captured, and even if he does run away there goes surprise. And even *with* surprise, there’s no guarantee that the Order would be able to take down Team Evil anyways.

I trust the Giant, but the way this is going, it’s headed for straight TPK.

i think you underestimate a few things

1)Nobody can tell the difference between DUrkon and other dwarves

2) redcloak hates xykon

3)He doesnt have to kill Durkon if he doesnt believe him

4) if he does make an attack move he might just like...Plane shift him

we all know Redcloak is powerful enough to not be remotely threatened by Durkon, and he has been keeping secrets from Xykon for decades now.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, fiddlesticks.

[b_jonas]

Well I thought we'd probably switch scenes to Team Evil in #1204, and meet the MitD again, but this is definitely not what I thought would happen. Also it's still a really bad choice by Durkon.


I'm hopeful that Redcloak will at least give Durkon a chance to talk, though it's still quite likely something, at some point, goes wrong. Of course. Just like he gave O-Chul plenty of time to talk too. It's just that there's nothing Durkon can say that helps.
Redcloak […] is just curious about what a Dwarf is doing this far north and in Bugbear territory. Yeah. Curious enough to capture and interrogate him, especially since Durkon won't just attack him in the face right away or try to steal Xykon's philactery.

[Fyraltari]

The more I look at it, the more I have just the tiniest art issue; I assume the glasses were supposed to make Kraagor look goofy, but they actually look pretty good on him!
IS that an issue with tThe Gaint's art or Xykon's?

Wow, newly minted Durkon 2.0 is quite a bit more "I'm a gonna do it my way" than old original Durkon 1.0.
Turns out that character development doesn't always mean "making better choices".

Another interesting question is, why is RC not resting after what's likely been a day of crawling 5 or 6 dungeons. I'd think he'd be too tired to be conferring privately with a bugbear shaman, though maybe RC's receiving something really useful like a map, a scroll of some high-level healing spell, or the like.

I think it's morning.

[Terbovus]

I realize now that we haven't seen Minrah on the ledge either (and being the new kid around, the Order doesn't pay enough attention to her presence yet). She probably noticed Durkon going into another direction and decided to follow him.

This - I reckon Minrah is in on his plan. Dwarfs (or Dwarves depending on your Tolkien) stick together.

[P. G. Macer]

Durkon, you maddwarf!

[AvangionQ]

Thor must have given Durkon one hell of a divine luck bonus to his hide and move silently checks for him to have slipped away from his party members without anyone noticing as he creaked away with his -6 armor check penalty ... 🕵️

[woweedd]

...Holy ****: Durkon, now is NOT THE TIME to grow an indepedent streak.

[Fyraltari]

Thor must have given Durkon one hell of a divine luck bonus to his hide and move silently checks for him to have slipped away from his party members without anyone noticing as he creaked away with his -6 armor check penalty ... 🕵️
Armour doesn't make noise when you're a cloud, does it?

...Holy ****: Durkon, now is NOT THE TIME to grow an indepedent streak.

Hey now, he grew it last book. Right now he's just acting on it.

[Aidan]

Oh. Oh my lord

[Kurald Galain]

3)He doesnt have to kill Durkon if he doesnt believe him

5) Redcloak specifically hates humans, not dwarves per se. So he might be more willing to listen to a dwarf. Maybe.

[Fyraltari]

5) Redcloak specifically hates humans, not dwarves per se. So he might be more willing to listen to a dwarf. Maybe.

The bugbear, however, might insist he does not (panel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) 8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html)).

[deltamire]

God, Redcloak's face in the last panel is so good. Not even the usual shocked :smalleek:. He's just straight up confused as to how a dwarf in heavy armour managed to clank his way that close to the village without being seen.

Hopefully he isn't going to be instantly mushed into dwarven pâté. I know this can't go brilliantly this close to the start of the book, but dammit, I believe in Durkon!

[Swiftbow]

Wow, newly minted Durkon 2.0 is quite a bit more "I'm a gonna do it my way" than old original Durkon 1.0.

I am excited to see how this is going to turn out.

Durkon convinced a vampire, however briefly, to abandon his evil ways.

Not only would that make him more confident, it would make him believe that ANYONE can be redeemed.

[PH7]

Ugh, I've had something this happen in my D&D group, too and I hated it. A player has an idea that I, as DM, knew was a good one and would give a decent chance of working if they tried to execute it. The player tries to convince the group but they decide against it. A little later he sneaks away and tries to do his plan anyway.

It may make good storytelling, but this puts a DM in an undesirable situation. Do I reward him for having a good idea? Or do I punish the player for going against what the group decided and splitting the party?

Hate to say it, but this is Miko-like behaviour of Durkon. Doing what you think is right, no matter what your friends at the table may think or want...

[Fyraltari]

Durkon convinced a vampire, however briefly, to abandon his evil ways.

Not only would that make him more confident, it would make him believe that ANYONE can be redeemed.

Given the last two panels here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html), I don't think this is Durkon's line of thought.

Also he didn't convince a vampire to abandon his evil ways, he helped his won vampire spirit to gain the proper context of his life and, by doing so, move beyond the incomplete peronality he had into a true copy of Durkon. The situations really aren't comparable.

[Daize]

Such admiration for the fact that even _THIS_ was predicted - not just by fantasizing about, but actually going by drawn hints, in their presence or absence. It definitely caught me by surprise.

My prediction would be that yes, Durkon will explain but fail horribly at convincing Redclock. Durkon will be able to 'escape', and Redcloak does not protect but just does not see a need to mention Durkon's olive branch offer. But having talked about it, it can at some later, way more dramatic moment in the story, be instrumental to a quick turnaround from Redcloak when something happens where he sees Xykon should be stopped, or so.

[King of Nowhere]

on one hand, going by all we know about redcloak motivations, this is a great idea.
on the other hand, it's still the beginning of the book, so there is no way this is going to end well.

[Fyraltari]

on one hand, going by all we know about redcloak motivations, this is a great idea.

I disagree, going by what we know of Redcloak’s motivations, ain’t no way in Hell he’d make concessions to The Plan.

[internisus]

Apologies if this has been pointed out already (I did not see it), but I believe another bit of foreshadowing occurred between Minrah and Durkon in 1202 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html). Just before Durkon casts Wind Walk, Minrah says, "You're sure you're ready for this?" and Durkon replies, "Gotta do wha we gotta do, right?"

Seems to me that they weren't talking about the Wind Walk spell (the fact that Durkon hates it was used to misdirect us in reading those lines) but rather a plan they had discussed to diverge from the party and speak with Redcloak.

[Emperor Time]

I think the element of surprise might be off the table now. Maybe Redcloak will only imprison Durkon instead of killing him. But if Durkon dies again, it no big dealsince he died twice not that long ago. And maybe the sound of his death will give the rest of the order enough time to escape to safety.

[Lemarc]

It may make good storytelling, but this puts a DM in an undesirable situation. Do I reward him for having a good idea? Or do I punish the player for going against what the group decided and splitting the party?

You fairly judge the idea on its merits and execution rather than "rewarding" or "punishing" your players as if they were children.

[hungrycrow]

I think the element of surprise might be off the table now. Maybe Redcloak will only imprison Durkon instead of killing him. But if Durkon dies again, it no big dealsince he died twice not that long ago. And maybe the sound of his death will give the rest of the order enough time to escape to safety.

If Durkon dies, then he's out. Minrah isn't high enough level to raise him and the Order doesn't have time to leave and find another cleric.
On the positive side, Redcloak might not realize Durkon is part of the Order, and might not think to raise the alarm.

[hroþila]

I think this is a bad idea in that it is theoretically more likely to backfire, but I also think that, while it will not work per se, it will be important in solving the issue later. Durkon might get captured or killed, sure, but I think he'll say the right things - he won't convince Redcloak to ditch the Plan, of course, but he might make Redcloak think of the Order as his trump card against Xykon, if he needs one.

[Verdruss]

Apologies if this has been pointed out already (I did not see it), but I believe another bit of foreshadowing occurred between Minrah and Durkon in 202. Just before Durkon casts Wind Walk, Minrah says, "You're sure you're ready for this?" and Durkon replies, "Gotta do wha we gotta do, right?"

Seems to me that they weren't talking about the Wind Walk spell (the fact that Durkon hates it was used to misdirect us in reading those lines) but rather a plan they had discussed to diverge from the party and speak with Redcloak.

This is so true! Also that everyone is smiling and saying goodbye to the crew and only Minrah and Durkon are with their back to us. Good catch!

[dancrilis]

If Durkon dies, then he's out. Minrah isn't high enough level to raise him and the Order doesn't have time to leave and find another cleric.
On the positive side, Redcloak might not realize Durkon is part of the Order, and might not think to raise the alarm.

Minrah might be able to use a raise dead scroll if they have one, but ignoring that Redcloak is high enough level to raise him and the Order have time to find him - they managed to locate Hilgya to raise him after she had killed him after all.

[Mariele]

So sad because I checked the comic yesterday and 1203 was the most recent. Checked it again this morning, 1203 was the most recent... then peeked at the forums and there was a 1204 thread. And lo and behold, and 1204 comic showed up when I went to the most recent again. :( Not sure how that happened.

Anyway, holy mother! I wasn't expecting that. Well, Durkon didn't use his last sending spell like Roy told him not to I guess, haha. I liked the title of the comic, too, especially since I just got my mom to start reading the comic with me and so Durkon getting separated from the party is still pretty fresh. How many times has this happened now, Durkon? I can remember four times off the top of my head...

My favorite part of this is how Redcloak just looks confused, not outright aggressive. He might think he's related to Kraagor if he doesn't remember him from the Order, maybe? And Oona's there too!* But where's Minrah? I'm so excited to see what happens next!


Apologies if this has been pointed out already (I did not see it), but I believe another bit of foreshadowing occurred between Minrah and Durkon in 1202 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html). Just before Durkon casts Wind Walk, Minrah says, "You're sure you're ready for this?" and Durkon replies, "Gotta do wha we gotta do, right?"

Seems to me that they weren't talking about the Wind Walk spell (the fact that Durkon hates it was used to misdirect us in reading those lines) but rather a plan they had discussed to diverge from the party and speak with Redcloak.

That's a good catch!


Which reminds me, I wonder why Redcloak and Oona decided they'd share intel in an inconspicuous area behind some building.
I was so surprised I didn't even pay much attention to that. That is an EXCELLENT question. Something's fishy.

*No, wait guys! That's not Oona! Her outfit (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) is a different color. This just raises further questions! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59GwT_Qlj0Y)

[SlashDash]

Intersting. Obviously Durkon isn't going to succeed. It's not just the start of the book, but there is no way anyone is going to talk Redcloak into things before they fully understand his point of view. Which... The order clearly doesn't. Celia's speech to Haley is a living proof of that.

That being said, it does seem kind of odd that Durkon just walks up to Redcloak. Wasn't he planning a sending?
I thought after last book that Durkon learned a bit more about crafting narratives. Surely he should be aware of the fact that it's too early for Redcloak to switch sides.


Plus Durkon is the one with the sending spell. The others can't contact him now. Unless Haley has a wand? Don't recall.


P.S
Where's Minrah? She isn't with Durkon or the party?

[PH7]

You fairly judge the idea on its merits and execution rather than "rewarding" or "punishing" your players as if they were children.

And I did. It was a good idea and it worked (he also rolled well for diplomacy). And for several sessions after that, the player's ideas were disregarded or more heavily criticised than usual, despite the advantage he got them in the campaign.
Putting aside the reward / punishment system the game works with, my point was that this kind of behaviour creates rifts in a player party. Going forward, Roy now has reason not to trust even real-boy Durkon. :smallfrown:

[Manga Shoggoth]

Of course. Just like he gave O-Chul plenty of time to talk too. It's just that there's nothing Durkon can say that helps.

Let's see - how about the truth: that if the gate is destroyed and/or the snarl is released the Gods hit the reset button and if they do that your God won't survive the interregnum. Durkon doesn't even need to know The Plan - all he needs to do is reveal this.

Redcloak isn't stupid - he will know that the main plan won't work because of the former, and the backup plan won't work because of the latter. That the Gods have also done this too many times to reasonably count will just be icing on the cake.

Then "there's another way" might hold some sway, provided that Redcloak can get past the sunk cost and convince his deity. After all, they do have a third backup plan now - Gobbotopia.

[Mic_128]

Putting aside the reward / punishment system the game works with, my point was that this kind of behaviour creates rifts in a player party. Going forward, Roy now has reason not to trust even real-boy Durkon. :smallfrown:

Sounds like the others are bitter little jerks. :/ They don't sound particularly nice to play with and sounds like it should be something addressed as a group before either your creative thinker gets fed up and bails or it blows up.

[danielxcutter]

I was so surprised I didn't even pay much attention to that. That is an EXCELLENT question. Something's fishy.

*No, wait guys! That's not Oona! Her outfit (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) is a different color. This just raises further questions! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59GwT_Qlj0Y)

Oona's tribe has a shaman (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html). Redcloak probably just asked for a scroll or two to help with the dungeon diving; if he tends to be drained after one door then continuously going over five would be near suicidal without additional magical aid. What consumables he did already have, are likely long since used up by now.


Sounds like the others are bitter little jerks. :/ They don't sound particularly nice to play with and sounds like it should be something addressed as a group before either your creative thinker gets fed up and bails or it blows up.

Eh, I don't blame them. Going off on your own like that is risky at best and has a very real chance for a TPK.

[Fyraltari]

Let's see - how about the truth: that if the gate is destroyed and/or the snarl is released the Gods hit the reset button and if they do that your God won't survive the interregnum. Durkon doesn't even need to know The Plan - all he needs to do is reveal this.

Redcloak isn't stupid - he will know that the main plan won't work because of the former, and the backup plan won't work because of the latter. That the Gods have also done this too many times to reasonably count will just be icing on the cake.

Then "there's another way" might hold some sway, provided that Redcloak can get past the sunk cost and convince his deity. After all, they do have a third backup plan now - Gobbotopia.
Why would he believe anything Durkon says, though? Also Gobbotopia isn't a back-up plan. At best it's prparaing for when Plan A is successful and at worst it's a side project Redcloak made to feel better about himself.

Also, and this really is the salient point here, I don't see how anything Durkon says can get Redclaok past his sunk-cost fallacy. You can't logic someone out of a bad situation they didn't logic themself into.

[SlashDash]

Redcloak isn't stupid - he will know that the main plan won't work because of the former, and the backup plan won't work because of the latter. That the Gods have also done this too many times to reasonably count will just be icing on the cake.


Except Redcloak isn't planning on destroying the gate.
Redcloak thinks they can take control over it and just threaten the gods to unleash the Snarl on them as a bargaining chip.

So what you say is only works if Redcloak loses. Which he isn't planning on.




Also, you're assuming that Redcloak is even going to believe Durkon.
Remember how long it took him to interrogate O-Chul.
It seems it's not just "cast discern lies" and call it a day.

[danielxcutter]

Why would he believe anything Durkon says, though? Also Gobbotopia isn't a back-up plan. At best it's prparaing for when Plan A is successful and at worst it's a side project Redcloak made to feel better about himself.

Also, and this really is the salient point here, I don't see how anything Durkon says can get Redclaok past his sunk-cost fallacy. You can't logic someone out of a bad situation they didn't logic themself into.

I think the most likely scenario is that it fails horribly, but drives enough of a wedge between Xykon and Redcloak that something swings in favor of the Order at the right moment.

...Well, dramatically speaking. The most realistically likely scenario is Durkon either getting himself killed horribly or being captured and the surprise attack plan is totally FUBAR. And well, Tarquin knew dramatic tropes like the back of his hand and look at where it got him.

[hroþila]

Yeah, if Redcloak wasn't super emotionally invested in the Plan then I could see him taking Durkon's words seriously enough to maybe try to contact the Dark One or perhaps doing some further research on his own. He still wouldn't take Durkon's words at face value, and he'd be right not to.

But given the sunk-cost fallacy, it is infinitely easier for Redcloak to assume Durkon is lying (which given the information Redcloak has would be a perfectly rational assumption) than to admit that the Plan he has been working for his whole life could never have worked in the first place. It should take overwhelming evidence to get past that, and even then it's a 50-50 chance that Redcloak just goes completely cuckoo rather than admit the truth.

[littlebum2002]

I CALLED IT! And you mocked and ignored me for even suggesting the possibility!

I'm going to be shallow and just take a moment to freaking gloat.

From previous thread:






EDIT: Ah, upon reading this thread I realize I have already been credited. Now I feel unsportsmanlike. :D

Thanks, littlebum2002. Thanks, Peelee.


You deserve to gloat, that was a really good prediction.

[danielxcutter]

Also, you're assuming that Redcloak is even going to believe Durkon.
Remember how long it took him to interrogate O-Chul.
It seems it's not just "cast discern lies" and call it a day.

Two nitpicks.

First, a major reason it went on for so long is because the hobgoblins needed more time to solidify their control (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html).

I said "a major" reason. Another one, possibly one that even Redcloak himself doesn't realize consciously, is regarding his past with paladins of Azure City.

Paladins slaughtered his village, even his little sister, and only he and his brother survived.

Look at Redcloak in this comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html). Getting knowledge is a major factor, yes, but I think Redcloak's past experiences have a lot to do with this. He seems... angry, and then almost disappointed. He almost wants O'Chul to do the "right" thing - and honestly, I think O'Chul might actually have told Redcloak had he actually known, in that situation.

Make no mistake, Redcloak is still Evil with a capital E. But that's not just it. I think deep, deep down, he still wants justice, even if circumstances and refusal to admit he was wrong have twisted that to the point where it's almost unrecognizable. But it's not dead yet. Look at Tarquin, Hel, Xykon - important villains from each alignment of Evil - and then look back at Redcloak. Tarquin just wants to play the world as his stage, Hel is a spoiled brat(although I do admit some of that is quite understandable), and Xykon is a psychopathic manchild who would who would destroy the world himself if he got bored enough (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) - and honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd try to end it out of spite if he can't have it.


Yeah, if Redcloak wasn't super emotionally invested in the Plan then I could see him taking Durkon's words seriously enough to maybe try to contact the Dark One or perhaps doing some further research on his own. He still wouldn't take Durkon's words at face value, and he'd be right not to.

But given the sunk-cost fallacy, it is infinitely easier for Redcloak to assume Durkon is lying (which given the information Redcloak has would be a perfectly rational assumption) than to admit that the Plan he has been working for his whole life could never have worked in the first place. It should take overwhelming evidence to get past that, and even then it's a 50-50 chance that Redcloak just goes completely cuckoo rather than admit the truth.

I can certainly see that, and it would be a nice subversion of expectations. But going completely cuckoo at the right moment could give the Order an opening - although probably not now, of course.

[Kardwill]

It may make good storytelling, but this puts a DM in an undesirable situation. Do I reward him for having a good idea? Or do I punish the player for going against what the group decided and splitting the party?


Option 3, you've been handled a perfect opportunity to have an exciting mission to rescue the captured party member while he learns more about the oppositions' plans!
I'm not my players' mom. My job is to entertain them, not educate them ^^

or option 4 : Tell him upfront, out-of-character, that you're unconfortable with the idea of splitting the group this way, or that his idea probably won't work, or ask the entire group if they're fine with this "split time". Unconfortable, but much less so that trying to convey the idea by "punishing" them, and less conflict-inducing in the long run. :)

EDIT : just saw your reply about the way it was handled. And yeah, this kind of "conflict of expectations" can create resentment. That's the reason I think best to handle this kind of decision out of character. "OK, guys, I understand your characters' reasoning, but I think having my character go off with his half-baked plan is fun. Is it okay if old Leoric goes behind the group's back and does his thing, even if it's risky?"
Of course, for this to work, you need insurance that the GM won't punish the group for one player's initiative, but it's the best way to handle thois I can imagine. This way, you can see if you and the other players are on the same page as to what is "fun" in a game, if you need to find a compromise, or if it's time to find another group

[Johndoe_142857]

… This is not going to end well. :smalleek:

[b_jonas]

I don't see how anything Durkon says can get Redclaok past his sunk-cost fallacy. (Also to hroþila.) That part is easy. The Plan was that the Dark One gains the ability to teleport the gate, and uses that the threaten the other gods to give a better deal to goblin races. Now the Dark One and Redcloak can do a better version of this plan. Give the Dark One the ability to teleport the gate, threaten the other gods that he'll let the Snarl kill some of them if they don't give a better deal to goblin races, and make the threats more effective by offering that Redcloak will strengthen the Gate with purple quiddity if the goblin races do get a better deal right in this world.

That said, I still think that it was a bad idea for Durkon to do this. He should have waited a few hours so that the Order could do some scouting and getting familiar with the environment and prepare something for when Xykon and Redcloak will find them. We know from Vaarsuvius that Xykon hasn't cast Dorukan's epic Cloister spell here, which means that Team Evil can do divinations to detect where the Order is, and now that Redcloak gets alert, all that will against that is whatever quick scrying shields Vaarsuvius can put on.

[Fyraltari]

(Also to hroþila.) That part is easy. The Plan was that the Dark One gains the ability to teleport the gate, and uses that the threaten the other gods to give a better deal to goblin races. Now the Dark One and Redcloak can do a better version of this plan. Give the Dark One the ability to teleport the gate, threaten the other gods that he'll let the Snarl kill some of them if they don't give a better deal to goblin races, and make the threats more effective by offering that Redcloak will strengthen the Gate with purple quiddity if the goblin races do get a better deal right in this world.
And why exactly would Redcloak and the Dark One agree to relinquish their gun and help ensure it cannot fire in the future? Why would they trust the Gods to hold their side of the bargain once the threat of the Snarl is over? Thor's plan is antitethical to The Dark One's.

[danielxcutter]

(Also to hroþila.) That part is easy. The Plan was that the Dark One gains the ability to teleport the gate, and uses that the threaten the other gods to give a better deal to goblin races. Now the Dark One and Redcloak can do a better version of this plan. Give the Dark One the ability to teleport the gate, threaten the other gods that he'll let the Snarl kill some of them if they don't give a better deal to goblin races, and make the threats more effective by offering that Redcloak will strengthen the Gate with purple quiddity if the goblin races do get a better deal right in this world.

That said, I still think that it was a bad idea for Durkon to do this. He should have waited a few hours so that the Order could do some scouting and getting familiar with the environment and prepare something for when Xykon and Redcloak will find them. We know from Vaarsuvius that Xykon hasn't cast Dorukan's epic Cloister spell here, which means that Team Evil can do divinations to detect where the Order is, and now that Redcloak gets alert, all that will against that is whatever quick scrying shields Vaarsuvius can put on.

I'd say Redcloak would only be able to treat the Order as "first-hand" at best and probably can't cast Scrying on Minrah at all. Not sure if "seen from a distance" counts as "first-hand" honestly.

Still, this was very risky. At the least, it's extremely likely that this will put Team Evil on their guard. Although if Redcloak does remember Durkon from accidentally scrying on him... that's going to be hilarious.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Why would he believe anything Durkon says, though? Also Gobbotopia isn't a back-up plan. At best it's prparaing for when Plan A is successful and at worst it's a side project Redcloak made to feel better about himself.

Also, and this really is the salient point here, I don't see how anything Durkon says can get Redclaok past his sunk-cost fallacy. You can't logic someone out of a bad situation they didn't logic themself into.

Are you referring to this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) (and the following (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html))? I read the first as Redcloak still trying to convince himself that he is doing the right thing (the original plan with all its inherent risks). And a nearly year-long project that he could have left to the leadership (I doubt whether he was personally negotiating all 17 treaties) seems a little extreme for a project to make him feel better about himself.

Gobbotopia isn't part of the original plan (and I never said it was - I noted that it was a new element), but it is a huge increase on what they had before. If the universe isn't reset again it is still a good backup plan, just a new one.

I also noted the sunk cost position - and that is what they will have to get past. I don't argue that it will not be a difficult sell, but it won't happen unless someone tries to talk to Redcloak.


Except Redcloak isn't planning on destroying the gate.
Redcloak thinks they can take control over it and just threaten the gods to unleash the Snarl on them as a bargaining chip.

So what you say is only works if Redcloak loses. Which he isn't planning on.

Redcloak isn't planning on losing, he just doesn't realise that he has no winning cards in his hand.

"Redcloak, you do realise that the second you do this the reset button gets pressed. And your God will not survive that."



Also, you're assuming that Redcloak is even going to believe Durkon.
Remember how long it took him to interrogate O-Chul.
It seems it's not just "cast discern lies" and call it a day.

No - I'm expecting it to take the better part of a book for him to come round. But it won't happen until someone talks to him.

As for "long it took him to interrogate O-Chul" - That's only half the story - the other half is that he was doing this to keep Xykon (and thus himself) in Gobbotopia while it was being set up (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html).

[Ghosty]

I disagree, going by what we know of Redcloak’s motivations, ain’t no way in Hell he’d make concessions to The Plan.

Agreed, but RC may realize quickly from what Durkon tells him (and if RC believes it), that the Plan with Xykon isn't necessary anymore. If The Dark One's quiddity is unique, and if the quiddity is essential for snaring the Snarl, then The Dark One can ask for any and all concessions for goblinoids up to the point where the rest of The Gods decide it'd be better to nuke the world and start over. RC doesn't need to move the Snarl to the Upper Planes to get leverage for TDO over the other Gods; the Gods are telling him through Thor's emissary Durkon that TDO already has it.

Now, RC is the poster boy for the Sunk Cost Fallacy, and may not be able to simply work against The Plan , because of his dead brother, lost eye, general debasement by Xykon, and everything else he's put up with for the last thirty years or so, but he's easily smart enough and wise enough to realize that he may not need The Plan anymore. Whether TDO is smart enough to realize this, is another question.

[facw]

Why would he believe anything Durkon says, though?
I don't imagine he'll believe Durkon fully, but Durkon may at least sow some seeds of doubt. "The gods hate goblins so much that they'd destroy the world rather than give goblins their rightful piece of the pie" definitely fits into Redcloak's world view. It's not going to cause him to abandon the plan here and now, but it might make him see if he can learn anything about what the other gods are planning or whether destroying the world really could doom The Dark One (though both of those would seem to be hard). It also presents an alternate bargaining chip for Redcloak and The Dark One, though at the moment Redcloak is certainly not going to trust the other gods enough to throw his leverage with the gate (which of course he doesn't actually have yet) in order to properly imprison the snarl. Still I think Redcloak will want information from Durkon, and even though he will think Durkon is lying (or has been given false information by Thor), he will at least consider the possibility that there could be some truth to it.

[Fyraltari]

Are you referring to this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) (and the following (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html))? I read the first as Redcloak still trying to convince himself that he is doing the right thing (the original plan with all its inherent risks). And a nearly year-long project that he could have left to the leadership (I doubt whether he was personally negotiating all 17 treaties) seems a little extreme for a project to make him feel better about himself.

Gobbotopia isn't part of the original plan (and I never said it was - I noted that it was a new element), but it is a huge increase on what they had before. If the universe isn't reset again it is still a good backup plan, just a new one.
It's not a back-up plan. The back-up Plan is literally to blow up the world rather than admit defeat. Redclaok in his current mental state will not accept status quo but with Gobbotopia added as an outcome.


I also noted the sunk cost position - and that is what they will have to get past. I don't argue that it will not be a difficult sell, but it won't happen unless someone tries to talk to Redcloak.
It's not a difficult sell. It's an impossible sell. Durkon is a total stranger to Redclaok and we know how well it went when a family member tried to get him out of it. People can't change other people if they aren't willing to change and Redclaok isn't. It seems to me that the only way Redclaok gives up on the plan is if it becomes utterly unworkable such as if the last gate is destroyed or The Dark One makes it clear that he doesn't intend to use his new absolute power over the multiverse in the interests of goblinkind.

The only person on the planet with a tiny-bitsy chance of getting throught to Redclaok would be his niece and that would be a hard sell. And Durkon doesn't even know she exists.

That's the real issue. Durkon assumes Redcloak approaches this reasonnably and mostly out of loyalty to his patron god, much like himself, and that was true. 30 years ago.


Agreed, but RC may realize quickly from what Durkon tells him (and if RC believes it), that the Plan with Xykon isn't necessary anymore. If The Dark One's quiddity is unique, and if the quiddity is essential for snaring the Snarl, then The Dark One can ask for any and all concessions for goblinoids up to the point where the rest of The Gods decide it'd be better to nuke the world and start over. RC doesn't need to move the Snarl to the Upper Planes to get leverage for TDO over the other Gods; the Gods are telling him through Thor's emissary Durkon that TDO already has it.
Through no work of Redcloak, meaning everything he's ever done was pointless. No way he accepts that.


Now, RC is the poster boy for the Sunk Cost Fallacy, and may not be able to simply work against The Plan , because of his dead brother, lost eye, general debasement by Xykon, and everything else he's put up with for the last thirty years or so, but he's easily smart enough and wise enough to realize that he may not need The Plan anymore. Whether TDO is smart enough to realize this, is another question.
This really isn't about intelligence or D&D wisdom, this would take real-life wisdom, the kind of maturaity Redcloak sorely lacks as Right-Eye pointed out.

[Ghosty]

Here's some questions. The Gods have the power to destroy 'the world' whenever they wish---they've done it a near infinite amount of times before. How long does that process take? Is it the 60 minutes or so the Snarl took to unmake the world when it was first formed? Or is it more of an 'we all agreed to do this. Count of three, snap our fingers and Bam!'?

When the world is destroyed, so is the Snarl? It just reforms when a new world is created? All of this is to ask, if TDO and RC decided to use their new quiddity knowledge to bolster a moved-Serini's Gate to the Upper Planes, in order to release the Snarl there---as was mentioned upthread---couldn't the Gods agree to simply destroy the existing world, which would destroy the Snarl, quickly enough that the Snarl release wouldn't be a meaningful threat?

Yet another question. Would TDO survive destruction of this world, right now? He's a God. He doesn't live on the world anymore. Plus, he has a lot of worshippers, a lot more then Hel. Would he have enough 'reserves'of faith, the inertia of ideas and ways of thinking, to make it to the next world formation along with his purple quiddity?

[Fyraltari]

Here's some questions. The Gods have the power to destroy 'the world' whenever they wish---they've done it a near infinite amount of times before. How long does that process take? Is it the 60 minutes or so the Snarl took to unmake the world when it was first formed? Or is it more of an 'we all agreed to do this. Count of three, snap our fingers and Bam!'?
Ten to fifteen minutes is more than enough time. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)


When the world is destroyed, so is the Snarl? It just reforms when a new world is created?
Nope, the Snarl lives on another plane of existence.

All of this is to ask, if TDO and RC decided to use their new quiddity knowledge to bolster a moved-Serini's Gate to the Upper Planes, in order to release the Snarl there---as was mentioned upthread---couldn't the Gods agree to simply destroy the existing world, which would destroy the Snarl, quickly enough that the Snarl release wouldn't be a meaningful threat?
Redcloaks ritual takes a few weeks to complete, meaning the Gods probably could destroy the world while it's happening. But it doesn,'t look like they know that.


Yet another question. Would TDO survive destruction of this world, right now? He's a God. He doesn't live on the world anymore. Plus, he has a lot of worshippers, a lot more then Hel. Would he have enough 'reserves'of faith, the inertia of ideas and ways of thinking, to make it to the next world formation along with his purple quiddity?
That's Redcloak's plan B. Our best source of information on the subject is... uncertain (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html).

[PH7]

Option 3, you've been handled a perfect opportunity to have an exciting mission to rescue the captured party member while he learns more about the oppositions' plans!
I'm not my players' mom. My job is to entertain them, not educate them ^^

or option 4 : Tell him upfront, out-of-character, that you're unconfortable with the idea of splitting the group this way, or that his idea probably won't work, or ask the entire group if they're fine with this "split time". Unconfortable, but much less so that trying to convey the idea by "punishing" them, and less conflict-inducing in the long run. :)

EDIT : just saw your reply about the way it was handled. And yeah, this kind of "conflict of expectations" can create resentment. That's the reason I think best to handle this kind of decision out of character. "OK, guys, I understand your characters' reasoning, but I think having my character go off with his half-baked plan is fun. Is it okay if old Leoric goes behind the group's back and does his thing, even if it's risky?"
Of course, for this to work, you need insurance that the GM won't punish the group for one player's initiative, but it's the best way to handle thois I can imagine. This way, you can see if you and the other players are on the same page as to what is "fun" in a game, if you need to find a compromise, or if it's time to find another group

My example is from several years ago. I mostly go for option 4 now if they can't work it out amongst themselves. No such available option for Durkon however. :smalltongue:

I agree with the people here who think whatever Durkon has planned won't work, at least not immediately. Even if he has a cunning plantm, he'd need to execute it before Xykon shows up, which could be anywhere from 'in 5 minutes' to 'the meteors are already falling.'
Mind you, I'm sure whatever Durkon has planned is very good. On the good-evil axis, at least.

[Grey Watcher]

Plus Durkon is the one with the sending spell. The others can't contact him now. Unless Haley has a wand? Don't recall.

Since Haley didn't say what wands she bought (at Elan's insistence) she both does and does not have a wand of Sending until such time as she is asked.


And I did. It was a good idea and it worked (he also rolled well for diplomacy). And for several sessions after that, the player's ideas were disregarded or more heavily criticised than usual, despite the advantage he got them in the campaign.
Putting aside the reward / punishment system the game works with, my point was that this kind of behaviour creates rifts in a player party. Going forward, Roy now has reason not to trust even real-boy Durkon. :smallfrown:

It wouldn't be the first time Durkon's gone against Roy's wishes (see the Miko fight for a start), but it is the most severe. Pre-character development Roy would definitely take it harder. Post-character development, he's going to take Durkon's intent I to account more. But that may not be enough and you might be right after all. It's difficult to gauge.


Let's see - how about the truth: that if the gate is destroyed and/or the snarl is released the Gods hit the reset button and if they do that your God won't survive the interregnum. Durkon doesn't even need to know The Plan - all he needs to do is reveal this.

Redcloak isn't stupid - he will know that the main plan won't work because of the former, and the backup plan won't work because of the latter. That the Gods have also done this too many times to reasonably count will just be icing on the cake.

Then "there's another way" might hold some sway, provided that Redcloak can get past the sunk cost and convince his deity. After all, they do have a third backup plan now - Gobbotopia.


Except Redcloak isn't planning on destroying the gate.
Redcloak thinks they can take control over it and just threaten the gods to unleash the Snarl on them as a bargaining chip.

So what you say is only works if Redcloak loses. Which he isn't planning on.




Also, you're assuming that Redcloak is even going to believe Durkon.
Remember how long it took him to interrogate O-Chul.
It seems it's not just "cast discern lies" and call it a day.

One thing is that Redcloak seems to think they still have the element of surprise with regards to The Plan. Knowing that the other gods have figured it out and already have their collective hand hovering over the "pull the rug out from under you" button should change the calculation. The ritual takes weeks. The gods can unmake the world (Gates included) in a matter of minutes. There's basically no way to pull off The Plan at this point. It'd be like trying to mug someone and expecting them to stand there while you forge a knife from raw metal.

Now Redcloak being Redcloak, there's a solid chance he'll ignore reason on this issue (accuse Durkon of lying, underestimate the gods' willingness to destroy the world, etc.). But he isn't stupid, either. So it's not entirely implausible for this to work, even with what we know of Redcloak that Durkon doesn't.

[gatemansgc]

.....oh. Oh my.

That I did not expect.

the giant is REALLY good at that and that's one of the reasons we all love this comic!

[littlebum2002]

And why exactly would Redcloak and the Dark One agree to relinquish their gun and help ensure it cannot fire in the future? Why would they trust the Gods to hold their side of the bargain once the threat of the Snarl is over? Thor's plan is antitethical to The Dark One's.

I mean I haven't seen any evidence that 4-color gates would be more resistant to moving than 3-color gates. If a divine caster and arcane caster by themselves can move a 3-color gate, then why not a 4-color gate as well? So the Dark One helping to beef up the gates shouldn't actually remove his ace-in-the-hole to move the gates to the astral plane if the gods don't acquiesce to his demands. In fact, it should give him more of a bargaining chip, since he is not only threatening to kill them but also threatening to take away their first chance at finally harnessing the snarl.

"Promise to help the goblinoids, and I'll give you a spell slot to fix the gates, but then if you go back on your promise I'll go back to my plan of moving the gates to the Astral Plane and, even better, I'll have 5 gates that I can move instead of just 1"





Also, is this supposed to be in the evening, after they have already gone through a few dungeons? If so then Durkon has a better chance of succeeding, since the Order could be considered a legitimate threat.

EDIT: Also also, if Roy would have let Durkon cast the sending spell, it wouldn't have actually ruined their element of surprise. I'm pretty sure the Sending spell works anywhere on the plane you're on, so contacting Redcloak wouldn't actually inform him that they were near his location. They could say they were still stuck on the desert continent.

[factotum]

And why exactly would Redcloak and the Dark One agree to relinquish their gun and help ensure it cannot fire in the future? Why would they trust the Gods to hold their side of the bargain once the threat of the Snarl is over? Thor's plan is antitethical to The Dark One's.

Because the Gods are already in session (aka the Godsmoot) debating whether to destroy the world rather than let the Snarl free. They're not waiting for the final rift to be destroyed, and the vote is on a knife's edge; and we've been told that the Dark One is likely not going to survive the transition to a new world, which makes Redcloak's Plan B a wash (e.g. the one where the Dark One is involved with the creation of the new world from the beginning). This is all information that Redcloak definitely doesn't know and which the Dark One probably doesn't know either, so there's at least some chance finding it out will change what Redcloak does.

I don't think it will actually happen that way because, as mentioned many times, we're too close to the beginning of the book and it would be really odd if Redcloak caved so quickly.

[Ron Miel]

I love all the people asking if Durkon doing this is Lawful or not. There's one simple thing to remember here: Durkon has orders *direct from his God* that he needs to contact Redcloak and get him on-side for the "rescue the world" plan. Why does anybody remotely believe that *Roy*'s orders matter in that circumstance? Whatever else may be the case, Durkon is Roy's friend, he's not his slave, and he's been devoted to Thor for a lot longer than he's even known Roy.

You are missing a vital point. Roy has agreed that they WILL contact Redcloak, but has made a decision that this is not the right time to do so. Following Roy's instruction does not violate his orders from Thor.

[Fyraltari]

I mean I haven't seen any evidence that 4-color gates would be more resistant to moving than 3-color gates. If a divine caster and arcane caster by themselves can move a 3-color gate, then why not a 4-color gate as well? So the Dark One helping to beef up the gates shouldn't actually remove his ace-in-the-hole to move the gates to the astral plane if the gods don't acquiesce to his demands. In fact, it should give him more of a bargaining chip, since he is not only threatening to kill them but also threatening to take away their first chance at finally harnessing the snarl.

"Promise to help the goblinoids, and I'll give you a spell slot to fix the gates, but then if you go back on your promise I'll go back to my plan of moving the gates to the Astral Plane and, even better, I'll have 5 gates that I can move, instead of just 1"
He’d threaten them with Gates the Snarl can’t escape from? How does that work?



Also, is this supposed to be in the evening, after they have already gone through a few dungeons? If so then Durkon has a better chance of succeeding, since the Order could be considered a legitimate threat.
I think it’s the morning, we began the scene with Belkar waking up.

Because the Gods are already in session (aka the Godsmoot) debating whether to destroy the world rather than let the Snarl free. They're not waiting for the final rift to be destroyed, and the vote is on a knife's edge; and we've been told that the Dark One is likely not going to survive the transition to a new world, which makes Redcloak's Plan B a wash (e.g. the one where the Dark One is involved with the creation of the new world from the beginning). This is all information that Redcloak definitely doesn't know and which the Dark One probably doesn't know either, so there's at least some chance finding it out will change what Redcloak does
Why would Redcloak believe one word out of Durkon’s mouth?
Remember that he already accepts the possibility of the Gods destroying the world to stop him.

[Angrith]

*siiiiiggghhhhh* I was so sure he was off-panel last comic. Dang it Durkon! Still, that "hullo" followed by Redcloak's bewilderment is pure gold. :smallbiggrin:

[dancrilis]

Interesting - I can see this ending with a word of recall back to the waiting airship.

[Mariele]

It'd be like trying to mug someone and expecting them to stand there while you forge a knife from raw metal.

I don't have anything to add except this mental image made me actually lol.

[littlebum2002]

He’d threaten them with Gates the Snarl can’t escape from? How does that work?

If a guy with a sword can destroy a 3-color gate, then why not a 4-color gate?




I think it’s the morning, we began the scene with Belkar waking up.

Ugh that does complicate things a bit



Why would Redcloak believe one word out of Durkon’s mouth?
Remember that he already accepts the possibility of the Gods destroying the world to stop him.

He doesn't have to, not really. I think Thor should have clarified his request to Durkon: Durkon doesn't really need to convince Redcloak to donate a spell, he really just needs to convince Redcloak to convince The Dark One to speak to the other deities. All TDO needs to do is send an emissary to, say, Tiamat to resume talks, they can do that while Redcloak is still looking for the gate. It wouldn't interfere with The Plan at all. She could confirm everything Thor is saying, and it appears that she is the only god that TDO trusts. She could also inform him that his Plan REALLY won't work, since they gods will destroy the world way before the ritual is complete. And once they have that discussion, TDO would probably be willing to tell Redcloak to donate a spell, knowing that once the gates are fortified the gods will REALLY not want to destroy the world to prevent The Plan and will probably give him most of what he wants.

[Man on Fire]

My boy is back!

[Fyraltari]

If a guy with a sword can destroy a 3-color gate, then why not a 4-color gate?
The fact that it would be in plane of existence owned by a god comes to mind.


He doesn't have to, not really. I think Thor should have clarified his request to Durkon: Durkon doesn't really need to convince Redcloak to donate a spell, he really just needs to convince Redcloak to convince The Dark One to speak to the other deities. All TDO needs to do is send an emissary to, say, Tiamat to resume talks, they can do that while Redcloak is still looking for the gate. It wouldn't interfere with The Plan at all. She could confirm everything Thor is saying, and it appears that she is the only god that TDO trusts. She could also inform him that his Plan REALLY won't work, since they gods will destroy the world way before the ritual is complete. And once they have that discussion, TDO would probably be willing to tell Redcloak to donate a spell, knowing that once the gates are fortified the gods will REALLY not want to destroy the world to prevent The Plan and will probably give him most of what he wants.
If Durkon can't convince Redcloak to change course, what makes you think he can convince Redcloak to convince The Dark One to change course?
Not to mention that Redcloak can't communicate with theDark One, their most likely conclusion is "the gods are worried about our progress! It's working! Full speed ahead!"

[Ronan]

You can tell whatever happens next won't work out because we're like 30 pages in instead of 250.

I believe it could. Readcloak could be convinced, but there's still the Xykon and Snarl problem. Hell, even Tarquin or even Sabine, the IFCC is around... I'm hoping for that, actually, but The Giant never dissapointed me, so I'm alright for a premature fail :)

[Crœsos]

Come to think of it, the only times Durkon and Redcloak have seen each other was across large, chaotic battlefields (Xykon's throne room at Chez Dorukan, the Battle of Azure City). Notably, Vampire Durkon had not yet caught back up to the Order when Team Evil teleported out of the desert. So, yeah, it's actually plausible that Redcloak never got enough of a look at Durkon to be able to recognize him.

Not true. Redcloak got a very good look at Durkon in strip #82 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html). The only question is whether Redcloak would recognize Durkon's face.


And no, he didn't disobey the letter of the law ("Don't use a Sending to talk to Redcloak."). I also suspect that Minrah is there as backup - and perhaps as an alibi. "We came alone."

And very in character for Durkon, considering that adhering to the letter of the law to while using it to undermine his adversary and get his way was pretty much Durkon's whole thing for the entire last book.

[Fyraltari]

Not true. Redcloak got a very good look at Durkon in strip #82 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html). The only question is whether Redcloak would recognize Durkon's face.

That was a year ago, though. He might have forgotten about it.

[Angrith]

If a guy with a sword can destroy a 3-color gate, then why not a 4-color gate?


If the Dark one gets involved though, Thor said it would be like the gods spot-welding reality, so not mortal magic and probably not a physical gate either. It would be a regular part of the fabric of the universe, only better. Like flex tape.

[DLcygnet]

The FOOTPRINTS! Where are the footprints?

Prediction: Durkon is pulling some some sort of Skywalker trick and isn't really there.

Please don't really be there. I don't want Durkon to die again.

[Fyraltari]

The FOOTPRINTS! Where are the footprints?

Prediction: Durkon is pulling some some sort of Skywalker trick and isn't really there.

Please don't really be there. I don't want Durkon to die again.

Durkon got there while he was cloud, he never landed on the ledge with the others.

[KorvinStarmast]

When your god tells you to do something, you get it done.
Durkon and Minrah need to put on sunglasses and proclaim, with all sincerity: "We're on a mission from god." Because it's true. (Channeling a bit of Jake and Elwood there, so they need an old police car ....)

I'm going to be shallow and just take a moment to freaking gloat.
You have earned the right. *golf clap* :smallcool:

That ought to leave an impression. Even if it doesn't, Durkon is an enemy race at a top secret base. Redcloak has no reason not to kill him next panel and many reasons he should.
And I've lived through this thing in many games. You're trying to figure out a way around a serious power imbalance (and Xykon alone should be enough to smoke the Order) and one person decides to throw away most of your advantages, usually for spotlight-hogging reasons. Never yet avoided a TPK in that mess. And I've usually seen a TPK but occasionally the "out in left field" approach works. It depends.

There's one simple thing to remember here: Durkon has orders *direct from his god* that he needs to contact Redcloak and get him on-side for the "rescue the world" plan. Why does anybody remotely believe that *Roy*'s orders matter in that circumstance? Thor's orders take precedence. No question. (Haven't any of us played with a Paladin? :smallbiggrin: )

...Holy ****: Durkon, now is NOT THE TIME to grow an indepedent streak. Sure it is. He's a high level character. He gets to take a few risks. Also, he's on a mission from {his} god. *drops sunglasses over eyes*

Not only would that make him more confident, it would make him believe that ANYONE can be redeemed. Hadn't thought of it that way, but well said.

You fairly judge the idea on its merits and execution rather than "rewarding" or "punishing" your players as if they were children. Agree.

Is Durkon more Jake or more Elwood, anyway?

As soon as I saw "Has anyone seen Durkon" I said out loud "Great reachback, Giant!"

Love it!

[Mariele]

That was a year ago, though. He might have forgotten about it.
Nobody forgets a thing like that. :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

Nobody forgets a thing like that. :smalltongue:

The facial features, I mean.

[littlebum2002]

The fact that it would be in plane of existence owned by a god comes to mind.

I was thinking TDO could just whack it, but as someone else pointed out, that may not be the case at all



If Durkon can't convince Redcloak to change course, what makes you think he can convince Redcloak to convince The Dark One to change course?
Not to mention that Redcloak can't communicate with theDark One, their most likely conclusion is "the gods are worried about our progress! It's working! Full speed ahead!"

But like I said, he doesn't need to change course at all. He can keep up his current course of action. All he needs to know is that things have changed since he cut off communication from the other gods and it is in his best interest to talk to them to get updated. I wouldn't consider "gathering information while doing everything else the same" to be a change of course.

Of course, not being able to contact him is a sticking point. I thought Redcloak communicated with TDO, but it was through Jirix when he died. Maybe he could try Commune? "I heard through the grapevine that the gods might be willing to discuss your demands with you now. It might be in our best interest if you ask Tiamat whats up. Might be a good backup for The Plan, which I will continue doing as ordered. Sounds good? Yes or no."


If the Dark one gets involved though, Thor said it would be like the gods spot-welding reality, so not mortal magic and probably not a physical gate either. It would be a regular part of the fabric of the universe, only better. Like flex tape.

I think you might be right. He used the word "seals" not "gates" which i think implies they are something entirely different.

[KorvinStarmast]

You are missing a vital point. Roy has agreed that they WILL contact Redcloak, but has made a decision that this is not the right time to do so. Following Roy's instruction does not violate his orders from Thor. Maybe being trapped in Durkula's mind for a while gave Durkon more confidence in his own rules-lawyering ability (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html). :smallyuk:

Hmm, reach back to 0075 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html). Not bad.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Honestly, it would be a hilarious turn of events if the next four words of the comic were Redcloak saying, "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." and we never saw Durkon ever again. It's been a while since the audience was reminded that Redcloak is probably the highest-leveled cleric in the world, and is not actually a reasonable person.

[KorvinStarmast]

Honestly, it would be a hilarious turn of events if the next four words of the comic were Redcloak saying, "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." and we never saw Durkon ever again. It's been a while since the audience was reminded that Redcloak is probably the highest-leveled cleric in the world, and is not actually a reasonable person. Moreso if it was cast on the shaman so that there'd be no witness to Reddie and Durkon having a chat. Xykon is likely to not be keen on such things.

[Snails]

The more I look at it, the more I have just the tiniest art issue; I assume the glasses were supposed to make Kraagor look goofy, but they actually look pretty good on him!

That is a completely stu-...yeah, you are right.

It is not a great statue of the dwarf IMO. Looks a little tentative when I expected him to stand either more heroic or more friendly or something. So the glasses make him look more dignified. Just prestidigitation away the tongue and he looks good.

Now, you have me doing it, durnnit!

[Alex Warlorn]

First, I hate to say it, but Roy was right that they should have waited until Xykon was out of the picture before negotiating with Redcloak to reason with the Dark One to finally seal the Snarl for good.

Second, it's a question if Redcloak has the same blinding hate towards dwarves and clerics of Thor that he has towards humans ("I hate all humans equally."), whether he'll note that it makes no sense that an intelligent, rational, and effective enemy that the Order has proven to be, would approach him unarmed and without escort unless he has something on the table Redcloak would actually want!

[Fyraltari]

But like I said, he doesn't need to change course at all. He can keep up his current course of action. All he needs to know is that things have changed since he cut off communication from the other gods and it is in his best interest to talk to them to get updated. I wouldn't consider "gathering information while doing everything else the same" to be a change of course.
It very much would be.
If The Dark One was willing to listen to the gods he wouldn't have cut communications off. I mean he didn't just send Loki's messengers away, he liquified them. Seems pretty entranched in his position. He might even view opening the negotiation table again before having his nuke as a display of weakness.
He's been betrayed twice now by the gods and their favored mortals. I really doubt he'd be willing to listen to anything they have to say.


Of course, not being able to contact him is a sticking point. I thought Redcloak communicated with TDO, but it was through Jirix when he died. Maybe he could try Commune? "I heard through the grapevine that the gods might be willing to discuss your demands with you now. It might be in our best interest if you ask Tiamat whats up. Might be a good backup for The Plan, which I will continue doing as ordered. Sounds good? Yes or no."
1) Why would the Dark One trust Tiamat more than Loki or Rat? He is angry at all the other gods.
2) Redcloak won't entertain the idea of working with Thor.

[dancrilis]

First, I hate to say it, but Roy was right that they should have waited until Xykon was out of the picture before negotiating with Redcloak to reason with the Dark One to finally seal the Snarl for good.


If Redcloak dies Thor's plan is over and Durkon's task will have failed.
If Durkon dies Thor's plan is over and Durkon's task will have failed.

Durkon doesn't know much about Xykon and Redcloak's relationship but he might figure that the mad lich mad on his own power (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html) might not be the best boss and might kill a minion or two if he got angry.
Durkon does know the Order and knows that 'use non-lethal force on the nearly epic goblin' will be a low priority.
Durkon also knows that he (Durkon) might die in the fighting, or that the order might not be able to knock Xykon off the board or secure the gate.

If Durkon is going to convince Redcloak to work with him he needs to actually try to convince Redcloak to work with him - and there are massive risks in waiting to act.

[b_jonas]

And why exactly would Redcloak and the Dark One agree to relinquish their gun and help ensure it cannot fire in the future? Why would they trust the Gods to hold their side of the bargain once the threat of the Snarl is over? Thor's plan is antitethical to The Dark One's. Firstly the ritual of the Crimson Mantle works on intact three-quiddity gates and specifically doesn't work on exploded rifts. It would probably still work on a four-quiddity gate without bothering to undo the purple quiddity part (like littlebum says above).

But even if it wouldn't work, I think Redcloak could still undo the purple quiddity part later if he strengthens one or more gate with it. The gates are strong from the inside, so the Snarl can't break out, but not so strong from the outside, so much that you can destroy it by whacking them with a magical weapon. That's why they had to be protected by strong defenses, dungeons that Xykon and Redcloak had take over to get to the gates. If they control the location of a gate well enough to do a ritual that takes a month, they also control it enough to undo the purple quiddity part. Plus Redcloak can probably more easily dismantle his own spells than anyone else, because he gets automatic passes for some dispel checks.

[Rogar Demonblud]

First, I hate to say it, but Roy was right that they should have waited until Xykon was out of the picture before negotiating with Redcloak to reason with the Dark One to finally seal the Snarl for good.

Second, it's a question if Redcloak has the same blinding hate towards dwarves and clerics of Thor that he has towards humans ("I hate all humans equally."), whether he'll note that it makes no sense that an intelligent, rational, and effective enemy that the Order has proven to be, would approach him unarmed and without escort unless he has something on the table Redcloak would actually want!

Given his reaction to Xykon defacing Kraagor's statue, yes, he does hate dwarves. It's just a colder hate than the burning passion he has against humans.

Also, remember that as far as RC (and probably TDO) know, this is only the second world. Durkon's best play is probably to point out the Graveyard of Worlds and attack the base conditions of the Plan. Not that RC would believe him.

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't think Thor's plan would strengthen the Gates. Rather it will delete the rifts from existence by effectively rewriting some of reality's "coding" (it just has to be done on a case-by-case basis with each rift individually). At that point there is no 4 quiddity Gate, just a useless slab of crystals.

[LadyEowyn]

My sense of where things will end up is that if the other gods make the concession that the Dark One gets to dictate some fundamental aspects of reality (such as “the goblins get comparable stats/lifespan to some of the PC races rather than being weak with short lives and commonly low INT” ), the world [I]itself - not just the gates - will become four-quiddity and the Snarl will be permanently contained.

Basically TDO adding his two cents to the process described in the last panel of this comic: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

So the other gods can’t just go back on the deal once the world is safe - it’s a permanent change.

That’s not what is being proposed by Thor at the moment, but I think we’ll get there.

(Plus something will happen wrt the world inside the rift, but no idea on that.)

[Drake Halfmoon]

He didn't use his last sending spell to contact him.

That's probably because it would be a breach of agreement with him and Roy. Durkon is all about following the rules, but he isn't above using loopholes. Roy never said he couldn't talk to Redcloak in person.

Though I gotta say, this was not one of his better ideas.

[understatement]

A couple things Durkon might(?) need to say before he gets instantly smoked:

1) He has to mention that he knows what the Dark One's up to. The Plan is literally known only to, what, Redcloak and Xykon? Someone who has the info (and a non-goblinoid, to say the least) is someone who might have more information.

2) The Dark One is in very real risk of dying. Mention that the gods would plug the world rather than have the ritual be completed.

I think the second point is the most effective -- it hits both Redcloak's devotion to his god and his Plan. What I can't see is Redcloak allowing Durkon to walk away, even if he's mildly persuaded by it.

[Fyraltari]

Firstly the ritual of the Crimson Mantle works on intact three-quiddity gates and specifically doesn't work on exploded rifts. It would probably still work on a four-quiddity gate without bothering to undo the purple quiddity part (like littlebum says above).
Yes, it would. I'm not questionning that. I am questionning the usefulness of having the power to move a Rift to a God's realmed when that Rift is ealed so that the Snarl can't breach it. Somehow I don't see giving Odin a new wall ornament being in the Dark One's interest.


But even if it wouldn't work, I think Redcloak could still undo the purple quiddity part later if he strengthens one or more gate with it. The gates are strong from the inside, so the Snarl can't break out, but not so strong from the outside, so much that you can destroy it by whacking them with a magical weapon. That's why they had to be protected by strong defenses, dungeons that Xykon and Redcloak had take over to get to the gates. If they control the location of a gate well enough to do a ritual that takes a month, they also control it enough to undo the purple quiddity part. Plus Redcloak can probably more easily dismantle his own spells than anyone else, because he gets automatic passes for some dispel checks.
If he break the Gate on the Material world it's unclear if the ritual could still move the Rift. Redclaok definitely couldn't undo Thor's spell however as his (well the Dark One's) contribution would only be "a drop of power" compared to the three pantheon's own and he wouldn't be the one to cast it.

[Jasdoif]

Given his reaction to Xykon defacing Kraagor's statue, yes, he does hate dwarves.Given the preface (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) that Kraagor killed thousands of goblins while he was alive, I'm not sure he views all dwarves with that degree of disdain.

[Ron Miel]

That's probably because it would be a breach of agreement with him and Roy. Durkon is all about following the rules, but he isn't above using loopholes. Roy never said he couldn't talk to Redcloak in person.

Though I gotta say, this was not one of his better ideas.

Look at the actual agreement (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1200.html):

Roy: One of the only advantages—possibly the one single advantage - we possess is the element of surprise. They don't know we're coming. If you call him up and let him know we want to talk, we lose that.

Durkon: But lad, Thor asked me ta—

Roy: And you will. We're going to talk to him. But not until after we've stopped the immediate threat. So please, do not use your last Sending spell to contact him.

Durkon: Aye, lad. Wha'ev'r ye think's best.


So, basically, Durkon agreed to three things:
1) Not to ruin the element of surprise
2) Talk to Redcloak later.
3) Don't use the sending spell.

Durkon has only really kept to the letter of one of those.

Is this Lawful?

[littlebum2002]

It very much would be.
If The Dark One was willing to listen to the gods he wouldn't have cut communications off. I mean he didn't just send Loki's messengers away, he liquified them. Seems pretty entranched in his position. He might even view opening the negotiation table again before having his nuke as a display of weakness.
He's been betrayed twice now by the gods and their favored mortals. I really doubt he'd be willing to listen to anything they have to say.


1) Why would the Dark One trust Tiamat more than Loki or Rat? He is angry at all the other gods.
2) Redcloak won't entertain the idea of working with Thor.

I mean I totally understand where you are coming from, and agree with you on most points. I just think it would be beneficial to let TDO know that things have drastically changed (in his favor, I might add) since he liquefied Loki's emissaries. Whether or not he chooses to act on that information is up to him.



So, basically, Durkon agreed to three things:
1) Not to ruin the element of surprise
2) Talk to Redcloak later.
3) Don't use the sending spell.

Durkon has only really kept to the letter of one of those.

Is this Lawful?

Yes, because you are missing one of the things Durkon agreed to:

4) Agreed to Thor that he would talk to Redcloak

Durkon promised his deity that he would do everything in his power to talk to Redcloak. He also promised his commanding officer he would wait, mainly because he had to. These two promises conflict in this case, but Lawful beings aren't robots. They aren't going to self destruct if they have a logical paradox. So as a Lawful being, Durkon wants to follow the one with the highest priority. And since he literally promised the deity he worships every day in the flesh he would do something, that kinda sorta has a little priority over promising Roy.

[hungrycrow]

Given the preface (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) that Kraagor killed thousands of goblins while he was alive, I'm not sure he views all dwarves with that degree of disdain.

Redcloak is an admitted speciesist. Hating all dwarves for something only Kraagor did isn't logical, but hate isn't very logical anyhow.

[Xel]

Yes, it would. I'm not questionning that. I am questionning the usefulness of having the power to move a Rift to a God's realmed when that Rift is ealed so that the Snarl can't breach it. Somehow I don't see giving Odin a new wall ornament being in the Dark One's interest.


I think you are characterizing it as a bit more benign than it’d actually be, given the gods’ general fear of the snarl. Instead of “new ornament,” think “dragon in a cage dropped into the bathroom of your everyday, ordinary NPC family.” The gods can’t know for sure that The Dark One doesn’t have some way to open the gate once it’s in place. I can’t imagine that isn’t *some* amount of leverage that even Red Cloak would recognize.

That said, I’m just going to admit I’m mostly at a loss for predicting how Red Cloak will react. Best outcome I can think of is that he listens and allows Durkon to leave, doesn’t inform Xykon to hedge his bets, and is still ambiguous enough that mere readers can’t figure out what he’s planning.

[Jasdoif]

Redcloak is an admitted speciesist.For hating all humans, specifically (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).

[Schroeswald]

If a guy with a sword can destroy a 3-color gate, then why not a 4-color gate?

Because it’s not a gate, it’s apart of the prime material plane. You can’t move it any more than you could move any place in the world, if you could move that part you could move literally every part of reality to allow the snarl to break through it. They plan on spot welding the thing until the entire plane is four colored, that wouldn’t work if theY were gates because as we’ve seen, gates are different than just any part of reality, a world that was just gate would be unlivable.

[Rogar Demonblud]

4) Agreed to Thor that he would talk to Redcloak

Durkon promised his deity that he would do everything in his power to talk to Redcloak. He also promised his commanding officer he would wait, mainly because he had to. These two promises conflict in this case, but Lawful beings aren't robots. They aren't going to self destruct if they have a logical paradox. So as a Lawful being, Durkon wants to follow the one with the highest priority. And since he literally promised the deity he worships every day in the flesh he would do something, that kinda sorta has a little priority over promising Roy.

There's nothing in Durkon's orders from Thor that says 'Do this immediately, no matter how it screws over everyone else.' But that's exactly what he just did. It in fact borders on malicious compliance, because he's very likely to fail now.

[Peelee]

That's probably because it would be a breach of agreement with him and Roy. Durkon is all about following the rules, but he isn't above using loopholes. Roy never said he couldn't talk to Redcloak in person.

Though I gotta say, this was not one of his better ideas.

Roy did say they shouldn't talk to Redcloak until after the immediate threat is taken care of. Durkon is not obeying "the letter but not the spirit" or using a loophole. He is defying Roy. He may see it as "talking to Redcloak does take care of the immediate threat", but if he wanted to be completely on the up and up, he'd have told Roy.

[hroþila]

There's nothing in Durkon's orders from Thor that says 'Do this immediately, no matter how it screws over everyone else.' But that's exactly what he just did. It in fact borders on malicious compliance, because he's very likely to fail now.
It couldn't be farther from malicious. That implies ill intent, which is 100% lacking here. Durkon legitimately believes this is the best course of action.

[Paula]

Why is Redcloak's holy symbol round? I thought he switched to a diamond shaped one.

[Mariele]

There's nothing in Durkon's orders from Thor that says 'Do this immediately, no matter how it screws over everyone else.' But that's exactly what he just did. It in fact borders on malicious compliance, because he's very likely to fail now.
That's stretching it a little far. Durkon genuinely thinks this is going to work. He genuinely thinks Redcloak can be reasoned with. He doesn't think he's screwing everyone else over. His god told him he could convince this guy. Why would his god give him a personal, important task that he couldn't complete? Durkon is thinking of Redcloak as another cleric, obeying his god, and wanting to do what's in his god's best interest. Roy's never been that interested in talking to Xykon's lackey, it's perfectly reasonable for Durkon to assume that Roy's maybe biased and Durkon can reason with Redcloak, cleric-to-cleric.
It's not "my way or the highway!", it's "I'm seeing this from another angle and I really think this is what I need to do".
And, again... Durkon isn't Roy's slave. Durkon may have respect for Roy's opinion and strategies, but they aren't the be-all, end-all, whereas his own god's assurance that he can totally pull this off... that'd weigh way more heavily in my mind. All Durkon really agreed to was not using his last Sending spell to contact Redcloak. The rest of the points were related to intent.
I don't think Durkon's idea was a good idea whatsoever, but I think that it's what he thinks to be a good idea--not strong-arming someone his god told him he could convince to "change sides".

[factotum]

Why is Redcloak's holy symbol round? I thought he switched to a diamond shaped one.

He's been wearing the round one again since at least #1038, so you're a bit late to be raising objections. :smallwink:

[Dion]

Is this Lawful?

No. I’d argue it is not.

And isn't that interesting? Because Durkon is a lawful good cleric who grew up in a lawful society, and until now even his own mother has claimed one of his defining characteristic is his lawfulness.

But Durkon isn’t a Paladin, and I‘m fairly certain he doesn’t worship a lawful god.

So if he finds himself breaking the rules to do something he believes will save the world, what does that say for him?

[Peelee]

No. I’d argue it is not.

And isn't that interesting? Because Durkon is a lawful good cleric who grew up in a lawful society, and until now even his own mother has claimed one of his defining characteristic is his lawfulness.

But Durkon isn’t a Paladin, and I‘m fairly certain he doesn’t worship a lawful god.

So if he finds himself breaking the rules to do something he believes will save the world, what does that say for him?

I'd argue that it says that, assuming it is unlawful, that Durkon is not a robot and does not have to be 100% lawful at all times.

[Fyraltari]

I mean I totally understand where you are coming from, and agree with you on most points. I just think it would be beneficial to let TDO know that things have drastically changed (in his favor, I might add) since he liquefied Loki's emissaries. Whether or not he chooses to act on that information is up to him.
Yes, that would be the reasonnable thing to do. I guess it's too bad Jirix isn't high priest.




I think you are characterizing it as a bit more benign than it’d actually be, given the gods’ general fear of the snarl. Instead of “new ornament,” think “dragon in a cage dropped into the bathroom of your everyday, ordinary NPC family.” The gods can’t know for sure that The Dark One doesn’t have some way to open the gate once it’s in place. I can’t imagine that isn’t *some* amount of leverage that even Red Cloak would recognize.
That'd be a pretty weak bluff though. The gods have enormously more experience of the Snarl than the Dark One does so thinking he doesn't know more than they do wouldn't be unreasonnable.


That said, I’m just going to admit I’m mostly at a loss for predicting how Red Cloak will react. Best outcome I can think of is that he listens and allows Durkon to leave, doesn’t inform Xykon to hedge his bets, and is still ambiguous enough that mere readers can’t figure out what he’s planning.
My own guess is listen to a while, refuse to believe any of it and try to capture for interrogation.
I think however that Durkon is smart enough to have prepared an escape plan with Minrah and may attempt to lead Team Evil away from the Gate when the negotiations fail.

For hating all humans, specifically (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).
For something only the Sapphire Guard did. We don't know that he loathes dwarves but it wouldn't be out-of-character for him.

[Gift Jeraff]

Why is Redcloak's holy symbol round? I thought he switched to a diamond shaped one.

I'm guessing it's either meant to misdirect the heroes into thinking it's the phylactery or Rich changed his mind and decided holy symbols within a single god's church should be consistent.

[littlebum2002]

Yes, that would be the reasonnable thing to do. I guess it's too bad Jirix isn't high priest.


Well, if Redcloak ever has more eyes than {scrubbed}, Jirix will be the high priest.

Maybe they can hold him down and forcefully Regenarate his eye so Xykon will kill him

[Fincher]

That's stretching it a little far. Durkon genuinely thinks this is going to work. He genuinely thinks Redcloak can be reasoned with. He doesn't think he's screwing everyone else over. His god told him he could convince this guy. Why would his god give him a personal, important task that he couldn't complete? Durkon is thinking of Redcloak as another cleric, obeying his god, and wanting to do what's in his god's best interest. Roy's never been that interested in talking to Xykon's lackey, it's perfectly reasonable for Durkon to assume that Roy's maybe biased and Durkon can reason with Redcloak, cleric-to-cleric.
It's not "my way or the highway!", it's "I'm seeing this from another angle and I really think this is what I need to do".
And, again... Durkon isn't Roy's slave. Durkon may have respect for Roy's opinion and strategies, but they aren't the be-all, end-all, whereas his own god's assurance that he can totally pull this off... that'd weigh way more heavily in my mind. All Durkon really agreed to was not using his last Sending spell to contact Redcloak. The rest of the points were related to intent.
I don't think Durkon's idea was a good idea whatsoever, but I think that it's what he thinks to be a good idea--not strong-arming someone his god told him he could convince to "change sides".

He may think it's going to work, but he's still putting his team members in danger without their knowledge after letting them think he was going to go along with the plan. If I were on the team, or in Roy's position especially, I wouldn't be okay with his actions at all and wouldn't trust him in the future.

Honestly, I hope his plan doesn't work, not directly. It's one thing for what he does here to lead to an eventual good outcome in some way he couldn't have anticipated, but if the bad decision-making involved here isn't illustrated by it not going according to plan, that would be annoying.

[Jasdoif]

Given his reaction to Xykon defacing Kraagor's statue, yes, he does hate dwarves.Given the preface (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) that Kraagor killed thousands of goblins while he was alive, I'm not sure he views all dwarves with that degree of disdain.Redcloak is an admitted speciesist.For hating all humans, specifically (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).For something only the Sapphire Guard did. We don't know that he loathes dwarves but it wouldn't be out-of-character for him.Exactly. Making an assumption, in either direction, is a bad idea; even Redcloak's initial reaction being confusion rather than shock or anger (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html) isn't particularly conclusive.


Maybe they can hold him down and forcefully Regenarate his eye so Xykon will kill himRegenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) does allow a Fortitude save to resist its effect, so a scenario like this must've come up seriously before....

[KorvinStarmast]

It in fact borders on malicious compliance, because he's very likely to fail now. I don't think that there's a malicious bone in Durkon's body. :smallconfused:
Plus:
Minrah's got his back. :smallcool:

[Frozenstep]

The vibe I've been getting is from this book so far that the heroes are finally truly rallied, going in together. Their teamwork has been refined and they're no longer the party that can hardly execute a simple plan. They're focused and determined and united and...well, suddenly this last panel.

[understatement]

Minrah's got his back. :smallcool:

Minrah's great, but what can she do that Durkon can't? She could try to Wind Walk away to warn the Order if it goes wrong...but the Order won't be able to reach Durkon in time either. And if they try to all-out fight, it will definitely draw Xykon's attention.

[masamune1]

If you look at the preceding comic, you can see Durkon looking off to the side for a moment.

I don't think he planned to seek out Redcloak or anything. I think he actually saw Redcloak standing right there, not too far away, and made an impulsive decision.

As to whether that is Lawful or not...doesn't really matter, because nobody is 100% their alignment (often, not even the gods), so making one non-Lawful choice in an impulsive moment doesn't mean much if you are Lawful most of the time (versus Miko, who was always teetering on the border of LN and LG imo).

[BaronOfHell]

I think Roy was right in that using the sending spell would have been a poor choice. Someone tries to go for the route of diplomacy by sending his voice without no risk apart from risking failing the attempt at diplomacy? RC would perhaps have ignored the attempt on this alone... now Durkon is there in person, he is risking his life just to speak with RC, then he must really believe himself he has something to offer that is worth listening to. Unless RC believes Durkon is some random encounter I guess?

[Aquillion]

But Durkon isn’t a Paladin, and I‘m fairly certain he doesn’t worship a lawful god.


I'd argue that it says that, assuming it is unlawful, that Durkon is not a robot and does not have to be 100% lawful at all times.Even Paladins do not have to be 100% lawful at all times. In fact, while they have to maintain a lawful good alignment overall, the Paladin code very clearly places more emphasis on 'good' than on 'lawful':


A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Likewise, the rules for falling state that a fallen Paladin is one who:


...ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct...

Paladins fall immediately for willingly committing an evil act, but not necessarily for a chaotic one - the second paragraph sets some general rules, but only willfully evil acts are called out as a specific red-line "do this once and fall" thing; other violations have to rise to the level of grossly violating the code before they make you fall. The implication is pretty clear that they're allowed to (though obviously not encouraged to) occasionally bend the rules in the service of good when it's absolutely necessary to do so, and may even be required to do so in situations where eg. telling the truth would be an unambiguously evil act.

Likewise, they're forbidden from associating with evil characters, but can associate with Chaotic ones just fine as long as they don't consistently offend the Paladin's moral code. Probably a good thing for O'Chul, since it seems very possible that MitD is Chaotic... not to mention all the Paladins who associated with Elan. They might get a headache from his antics, but they won't fall.

(Even just applied to evils, this rule is probably the most commonly houseruled part of the code, though, since it causes too many party conflicts and can become actively absurd if a Paladin is associating with an evil character in order to try and redeem them.)

[JonahFalcon]

So, has anyone noticed that Redcloak and the bugbear are going behind Xykon's back and relying information secretly behind a house? No? The single paid of footprints are a clue.

Durkon is a cleric of Thor and he does what THOR wants, not what Roy wants. Thor is Durkon's boss. Roy isn't.

[RatElemental]

That certainly took me by surprise. Rich does it again.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, has anyone noticed that Redcloak and the bugbear are going behind Xykon's back and relying information secretly behind a house?

Assumption of facts not in evidence. They could simply be exchanging a spell scroll. And there is nothing in that panel that says Xykon wasn't told.

[Fyraltari]

Assumption of facts not in evidence. They could simply be exchanging a spell scroll. And there is nothing in that panel that says Xykon wasn't told.

They are meeting behind a house. That looks hush-hush. Look at Redcloaks's footprints, he came from inside and walked towards the back.

[Mandor]

I mean, I feel bad for Roy, but only to a point.

Roy knew Thor had given Durkon a direct order on this point.
Roy knows Durkon is a cleric of Thor, and not a casual one.
Sure, Roy said "Don't do that, we'll lose the factor of surprise."

but um... Roy? You don't outrank Thor. Not to Durkon.
You should have KNOWN he'd either defy you or pull an end-run around what you said to get where Thor told him he needs to be.

[Mandor]

Also sure "Lets' talk to Redcloak after we deal with Xykon".

How plausible is it that they can deal with Xykon without being in a final fight to the death, and guarantee that Redcloak isn't killed in part of that?
Or so irrevocably committed to the fight that he'd even CONSIDER stopping to discuss things with Roy et al while the fight is going on?

If both Xykon and Redcloak are slinging spells against the order, I think it's about 0.000000000000001% chance to get Redcloak to agree to Thor's proposal.
I think Durkon believes the ONLY realistic chance he has to get Redcloak to agree, is to talk to him BEFORE it's a final fight to the death.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but if Durkon fails? He knows darn well this planet and all life on it will end up annihilated by the Snarl. And there will be just another planetary gravestone in the Astral plane, along with the MILLIONS of others.
This isn't just about whether or not the Order of the Stick lives or dies.
This is about how you best preserve the future of all future generations this planet will ever have.

[Jasdoif]

You should have KNOWN he'd either defy you or pull an end-run around what you said to get where Thor told him he needs to be.Roy was probably expecting Durkon to actually defy him, as in openly refuse, if there was a conflict of interest. That said, seeing Redcloak out in the open like that looks like a opportunity that'd be lost if Durkon didn't take advantage of it immediately; Durkon may not have been intending to go behind below Roy's back until that moment.

It's also unclear if/how Durkon is going to try to preserve Roy's intent. I mean, "Roy didn't send me to meet with you now" and "Roy'd be pissed if he knew I was here" are both true statements; which could be construed to mean the rest of the Order isn't there.

[Hotu]

Am I the only one who thinks Durkon will cast Summon Proxy? We know that he's high enough level, since Durkon* was able to cast it and he was Durkon's level out of necessity... I just don't think that Durkon has the charisma to convince a wet paper bag, let alone the world's sunkest cost fallacy.

[understatement]

Am I the only one who thinks Durkon will cast Summon Proxy? We know that he's high enough level, since Durkon* was able to cast it and he was Durkon's level out of necessity... I just don't think that Durkon has the charisma to convince a wet paper bag, let alone the world's sunkest cost fallacy.

Summon Proxy can only be cast by High Priests, which is why Odin's priestess needed HPoH to verify his status using the spell.

Also, Durkon doesn't know about the sunk-cost part. No one (un)living, apart from Xykon, knows. He thinks Redcloak will be more Lawful than Evil.

[NobleCuriosity]

So, has anyone noticed that Redcloak and the bugbear are going behind Xykon's back and relying information secretly behind a house? No? The single paid of footprints are a clue.

I was going to say that a back of a house in direct view of the clearing the statue is in wouldn’t be very hidden, but after reviewing 1198 ( https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html), the one house that seems to fit what we see does actually appear to be fairly discreet location (and is indeed the back of a house).

Edit: but on the negative side, this is quite possibly “the one house Redcloak and Xykon kept going in and out of,” in which case Xykon would be not just close but within earshot.

Xykon overhearing Durkon try to sell this to Redcloak would be a decent way to force this to end badly without Redcloak having to make a genuine decision yet. That said, it seems almost a bit too disastrous—how in the world does Durkon plan to escape Xykon?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Pretty sure Xykon will notice the giant deity. And Xykon will take one look at some dwarf appearing out of nowhere and immediately reach the correct conclusion: Adventurers here to stop me.

[Dion]

I'd argue that it says that, assuming it is unlawful, that Durkon is not a robot and does not have to be 100% lawful at all times.

Agreed. I do think it’s a very interesting contrast from strip #200, though.

[Fyraltari]

About the "they can't be sure Redcloak would survive a fight" bit, they could always try to resurect him afterwards. True he might refuse but he does have amission so he might not.


Summon Proxy can only be cast by High Priests, which is why Odin's priestess needed HPoH to verify his status using the spell.

Also, Durkon doesn't know about the sunk-cost part. No one (un)living, apart from Xykon, knows. He thinks Redcloak will be more Lawful than Evil.

Also Summon Proxy is a glorified god telephone, it wouldn't allow Thor to hear or see Redcloak making conversation an impossibility.

[dancrilis]

About the "they can't be sure Redcloak would survive a fight" bit, they could always try to resurect him afterwards. True he might refuse but he does have amission so he might not.

They could try - but they know the Dark One is dubious about the other gods, it stands to reason his priests might refuse to be raised by the priest of a different god. So it is a risk - and given that Redcloak might be (I think it is likely he is) the only servant of the Dark One with access to 9th level spells if he dies and won't be raised then Thor's plan is finished before it begins.
From Redcloak's prespective it would seem to mean:
A) Xykon gives the cloak to Jirix and the plan continues.
B) Xykon is gone and so the plan is finished in the short term - he might as well let the next high priest of the Dark One give it a go.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, how likely would Redcloak consider the “oh hey maybe this guy is one of the dwarves Oona mentioned” theory? That’s probably going out of the window pretty soon, but it might be why he’s not Imploding Durkon as soon as he sees him - if only not to waste his spell slots.

[Dion]

Also Summon Proxy is a glorified god telephone, it wouldn't allow Thor to hear or see Redcloak making conversation an impossibility.

If Durkon could cast it, and if RedCloak would cast it, and if it works across pantheons, then Summon Proxy would allow TDO and Thor to communicate directly.

But I’m not sure how that would be of value right now, even IF all the preconditions were true.


Minrah's great, but what can she do that Durkon can't?

I get the impression she’s quite good at punching.

She can probably punch things.

[understatement]

If Durkon could cast it, and if RedCloak would cast it, and if it works across pantheons, then Summon Proxy would allow TDO and Thor to communicate directly.

But I’m not sure how that would be of value right now, even IF all the preconditions were true.

And Xykon.


I get the impression she’s quite good at punching.

She can probably punch things.

Yup, these are dead dwarves. Dwarfs? Eh.

[Windscion]

I get the impression she’s quite good at punching.
She can probably punch things.
She carries her fists in her heart! (1132)

[sillymel]

Durkon, you're not Doctor Strange. I highly doubt "Redcloak, I've come to bargain" is gonna work.

[Fincher]

Minrah's great, but what can she do that Durkon can't? She could try to Wind Walk away to warn the Order if it goes wrong...but the Order won't be able to reach Durkon in time either. And if they try to all-out fight, it will definitely draw Xykon's attention.

She's quite adept at overexplaining things.

[KorvinStarmast]

Minrah's great, but what can she do that Durkon can't? I am a member of the Minrah fan club. Also, I don't think she's high enough cleric level to cast Wind Walk. Her Fighter levels are a thing.

[Hemoparty]

Wahaha! I was told Durkon was too Lawful to go behind Roy's back, but I knew better! I was expecting him to wait a little longer, but the Giant knows what he's doing.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have not looked forward to dialogue so much in my life.

I really hope it doesn't fail immediately. I want to see how Redcloak reacts. This is the juicy story stuff.

[The MunchKING]

Summon Proxy can only be cast by High Priests,

Like all Clerical spells, it's probably more a case of "are you powerful enough to cast it" and "Is your God/dess willing to give it to you" then "ONLY High priests can cast it".

[Grey Watcher]

Like all Clerical spells, it's probably more a case of "are you powerful enough to cast it" and "Is your God/dess willing to give it to you" then "ONLY High priests can cast it".

There might be a Dumb God LawTM stating that gods can only grant Summon Proxy to their officially recognized high priests.

[understatement]

Like all Clerical spells, it's probably more a case of "are you powerful enough to cast it" and "Is your God/dess willing to give it to you" then "ONLY High priests can cast it".

Something has to differentiate a High Priest from a normal one.

[Askthepizzaguy]

At this point, I would argue that Durkon is currently Thor's chosen high priest.

He's very high level and on a direct, world-saving mission. I'm sure the current high priest won't mind being demoted for a day.

[Peelee]

At this point, I would argue that Durkon is currently Thor's chosen high priest.

He's very high level and on a direct, world-saving mission. I'm sure the current high priest won't mind being demoted for a day.

That Favored Souls exist seem to imply that High Priest is not necessarily "which agent the god likes best" and rather more of an administrative role.

[Mandor]

I have not looked forward to dialogue so much in my life.

I really hope it doesn't fail immediately. I want to see how Redcloak reacts. This is the juicy story stuff.

I think we'll get a couple of comics worth of dialogue, or perhaps, one reallllly long comic of dialogue, much like the one with Redcloak and Tsukiko (though hopefully, not ending quite the same....).

It may still end with him trying to murder Durkon. But Durkon just showed up, and said "Hullo."
Not even TRYING to attack Redcloak. Not casting buffs (though I hope he's already got a death ward going...), not trying to cast or even melee. Just "Hullo."
If nothing else that's gonna get Redcloak curious to know WHY. Redcloak doesn't like when things don't make sense.

However, narritively, it feels like WAY TOO SOON for this to work. I think Durkon might plant the seed of an idea, but it will take time for Redcloak to think about it.
So I'm kind of expecting Durkon to be captured or killed (though killed feels unlikely....), or minimally, to be driven off.

[Peelee]

It may still end with him trying to murder Durkon. But Durkon just showed up, and said "Hullo."
Not even TRYING to attack Redcloak. Not casting buffs (though I hope he's already got a death ward going...), not trying to cast or even melee. Just "Hullo."
If nothing else that's gonna get Redcloak curious to know WHY. Redcloak doesn't like when things don't make sense.

Devil's Advocate: Redcloak does have access to Speak With Dead....

[Xel]

Devil's Advocate: Redcloak does have access to Speak With Dead....

Risky. Insufficient avenues for coercing straight answers.

[Dragon496000]

Durkon I hope you know what you are doing...

[facw]

I don't think that there's a malicious bone in Durkon's body. :smallconfused:

His hatred of the undead and trees has been well documented.

But yeah, nothing remotely malicious about this.

[understatement]

Devil's Advocate: Redcloak does have access to Speak With Dead....

RC: Who told you about the Plan?

dead!Durkon: My god.

RC: What did he tell you?

dead!Durkon: The Plan.

And then Xykon kills them both. The end.