Help with a Challenge Issued by my DM

[Garm Fenrir]

So I’m a long time reader, first time poster. I’ve been playing D&D for only about a year with my brother in-law as the DM. It’s been a single campaign this entire time and I’ve just reached level 12. The rest of the group is a level or two behind due to missing some games. There is a wizard, rogue, warlock and a necromancer. I play the only melee character and have taken on the role of tank.

So the problem I’m facing is the DM considers my character overpowered as I’ve used several sources to build my character. My character is a shifter Barb 2 / Fighter 2 / Warshaper 3 / Weretouched Master 5 (pre-errata). I have intentionally stayed away from the more powerful feats I’ve come across, he’s basically got combat reflexes, improved trip, multiattack and improved natural attack as well as some shifter feats. I think the problem is his stats are very high while he’s in his alternate form, STR, DEX and CON in low 30's high 20's.

To prove his point, the DM wants me to create characters using only the PHB and DMG, then have them fight my current character. Now he’s suggested I build a monk or fighter and see how they do against my current build. But he has said I can test any class against my current character. I know anything with flight could beat him. My main question is what other builds, using only these two books could beat him and how.

I’d like to prepare a respectful rebuttal using the parameters he’s set out. As I personally feel that he’s only powerful in specific situations, most of the time the casters are doing crazy things that I could only dream of lol. Ideally, I’d like to give him a list of how he can be taken down by several core classes.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide!

[jdizzlean]

i'd say by simply limiting the sources you have available to build a character, that unless you do something like straight druid, or straight wiz/sorc that can just shut down your melee build, you can't compete with your current build. I've never used weretouched myself, but warshaper is generally considered a very strong flavor of cheese. and i've not used shifter myself in a game, but iircc, doesn't your shifter form only last a few rounds, a few times a day, w/o serious feat investment, which it sounds like you haven't done? any lockdown build can negate that easily until you return to a more normal form and then facebash you a million ways to oblivion.

it sounds like your DM isn't making you think when you fight, but instead presenting challenges that you can easily overcome, which leads to the whole OP argument you find yourself in. also, if you are more optimized than the rest of the table, you outshine them, and likewise might seem OP to them, which could be the origination of this complaint your DM has now.

[daremetoidareyo]

Druid 10? Natural spell, a metamagic or two, and an item creation. Get a big ole animal companion, summon nature's ally 5 lasts for 10 turns, wildshape into a flyer. Go druid 9 and craft yourself some stuff with xp.

What do you think he wants to prove?

You're 2 levels ahead, that's relevant, but he's right in his assertion that core monk and fighter are not good. There isn't anything you can do with them out of the can.

How is your character making challenging encounter design for him? He has to increase lethality to challenge you, while the lagbehinds will feel the greater force of that lethality increase. It's a tough balance. I get the impression he blames power creep from the additional splat books for creating the difficulty and he wants to demonstrate to you how it is observable how much less your character build stinks compared to what 3.5 core designers intended for martials.

[Garm Fenrir]

Thanks for the reply, I was unaware that Warshaper was considered cheesy. I basically wanted to play a werebeast that could take hits for the party and be decent in melee. I took Warshaper to get the extra reach as I'm not using a reach weapon and wanted to help peel baddies off the group.

[el minster]

Antimagic field !!!

[Buufreak]

Antimagic field !!!

What is that possibly providing in this case? Everything the character is doing is non gear based and EX.

[Garm Fenrir]

Druid 10? Natural spell, a metamagic or two, and an item creation. Get a big ole animal companion, summon nature's ally 5 lasts for 10 turns, wildshape into a flyer. Go druid 9 and craft yourself some stuff with xp.

What do you think he wants to prove?

You're 2 levels ahead, that's relevant, but he's right in his assertion that core monk and fighter are not good. There isn't anything you can do with them out of the can.

How is your character making challenging encounter design for him? He has to increase lethality to challenge you, while the lagbehinds will feel the greater force of that lethality increase. It's a tough balance. I get the impression he blames power creep from the additional splat books for creating the difficulty and he wants to demonstrate to you how it is observable how much less your character build stinks compared to what 3.5 core designers intended for martials.

Thanks for the input! I think he's trying to show me how martial characters 'should' be. But he seems to also believe that nothing in the core book could beat my current character.

I dropped a feat called Steadfast Determination because my saves were too high. I've also suggested that we modify the stat boost bonuses provided by alternate form to make him weaker. Without completely rebuilding my char, I'm at a loss as to what else to do.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make a Gnome Druid 12, with max ranks in Concentration, Listen, Spot, Hide, and Move Silently, animal companion is a Dire Lion. Feats are Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell, Multiattack, and Quicken Spell. Starting gold was spent on NPC spellcasting for caster level 20 Greater Magic Fang +5 plus Permanency on each of his and his animal companion's limbs and mouth (10 total), and maybe a few Metamagic Rods of Extend. His favorite forms are Dire Bear and something that flies, and every day he casts Extended Longstrider, Extended Delay Poison, and Endure Elements on himself and the companion.

Tactics: He and his animal companion start out hidden. He's flying and starts out by casting Summon Nature's Ally VI for 1d4+1 Lions, making them appear surrounding you but not too close. That has a 1 round casting time, so they appear at the start of his next turn and immediately act on his turn. Those and his dire lion companion all charge at you, once they're all within 30 ft. of each other (he flies down closer as well) he casts Animal Growth on each of them and on himself. They all pounce on you and improved grab, keeping in mind the bonus for being huge size. On the third round he flies in closer and wild shapes into a dire bear and casts Quickened Produce Flame, the lions all full attack you in the grapple. The third round he full attacks you from outside the grapple, adding the damage from Produce Flame to each attack per holding the charge on a touch spell, and the lions continue full attacking you in the grapple. Repeat that last round as often as needed, he may cast another Summon Nature's Ally for more lions if they get killed, or for unicorns to start healing himself and the animal companion if they're getting really hurt.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but due to his form being supernatural, AMF would shrink my character down to his weak little self and he'd be in a bad spot.

Right, but a caster able to use AMF is a pure caster and is also crippled by it.

[Garm Fenrir]

Thank you Biffoniacus! Exactly what I'm looking for.

[Gusmo]

Invisibility and lots of summoning can be pretty effective.

[el minster]

Right, but a caster able to use AMF is a pure caster and is also crippled by it.

Item creation rules are in the DMG so you don't need to be a caster just buy an item.

[Garm Fenrir]

Also, just thinking... It way be helpful if I could explain to my DM how the other members in my party could take out my character if they wanted to. Would a Dread Necromancer, Warlock or Wizard be able to do this? Obviously assuming they are the same level.

I don't want to be overpowered but I also don't want to be useless. Just trying to find the right balance.

[Gusmo]

What ranged attacks does your character have? Flight? Teleportation, or other notable movement modes? True seeing, blindsight, or anything else better than spot/listen?

[Garm Fenrir]

What ranged attacks does your character have? Flight? Teleportation, or other notable movement modes? True seeing, blindsight, or anything else better than spot/listen?

He's got scent and a high perception (houseruled spot/listen into one skill).

He does not have any ranged attacks aside from a longbow. No flight, teleportation or any spell casting ability. No notable magic items and is not trained in Use Magic Device.

[Kelb_Panthera]

He's got scent and a high perception (houseruled spot/listen into one skill).

He does not have any ranged attacks aside from a longbow. No flight, teleportation or any spell casting ability. No notable magic items and is not trained in Use Magic Device.

So wait... his entire objection is to str 30+ and the attendant bonuses? That's kind of sad in a "melee can't have nice things" kind of way.

You can probably get pretty close with a straight-up half-orc barbarian. Str 20 to start becomes 26 with improved rage, and probably 30 or so with a belt of giant's strength. Mithral plate will get your AC to comparable, I'd bet; somewhere in the neighborhood of 21-ish. 12d12+72 puts you to about 165 hp when raging (start con 14 +6 for rage +2 for amulet of health) even though you're actually even more durable than that because DR/-. Attack looks something like 12 bab +10 str +1 for a mwk weapon is +23 to hit and I'm not even really trying here. Power attack and lets make that weapon a greataxe (style mostly) and you're at 1d12 +15 str +6 for PA will make 27ish damage per hit with an 80% hit rate against average AC.

I mean, you're the very picture of the big stupid fighter but you're still hitting like a truck. It's just a lot less interesting. It does make your mind a bit more vulnerable but it's not awful. Slap on a cloak of resistance and you're probably not too bad off, not that it'll matter much in your duel with yourself.

Seriously, this is as basic as it gets and I'mma guess it's not too far behind where you're actually at?

There're a handful of known tricks that melee can pull that cause GM headaches and you're barely touching on one of them. Just show him a bog-standard murder-machine isn't that different and much less interesting and he'll probably relent.

[Garm Fenrir]

So wait... his entire objection is to str 30+ and the attendant bonuses? That's kind of sad in a "melee can't have nice things" kind of way.

You can probably get pretty close with a straight-up half-orc barbarian. Str 20 to start becomes 26 with improved rage, and probably 30 or so with a belt of giant's strength. Mithral plate will get your AC to comparable, I'd bet; somewhere in the neighborhood of 21-ish. 12d12+72 puts you to about 165 hp when raging (start con 14 +6 for rage +2 for amulet of health) even though you're actually even more durable than that because DR/-. Attack looks something like 12 bab +10 str +1 for a mwk weapon is +23 to hit and I'm not even really trying here. Power attack and lets make that weapon a greataxe (style mostly) and you're at 1d12 +15 str +6 for PA will make 27ish damage per hit with an 80% hit rate against average AC.

I mean, you're the very picture of the big stupid fighter but you're still hitting like a truck. It's just a lot less interesting. It does make your mind a bit more vulnerable but it's not awful. Slap on a cloak of resistance and you're probably not too bad off, not that it'll matter much in your duel with yourself.

Seriously, this is as basic as it gets and I'mma guess it's not too far behind where you're actually at?

There're a handful of known tricks that melee can pull that cause GM headaches and you're barely touching on one of them. Just show him a bog-standard murder-machine isn't that different and much less interesting and he'll probably relent.

Thanks, I will try this out and see how it goes. If I could have a standard barbarian beat my current character, it would go a long way in arguing my case.

I should also mention it's been houseruled that I cannot trip on an attack of opportunity. So the extra reach my current character has coupled with his improved trip don't get used when it is not my turn.

[AvatarVecna]

"You're breaking the game! Your melee tank has numbers that are too high to deal with!"

-Someone who definitely understands the game and gets laid a lot

[Garm Fenrir]

"You're breaking the game! Your melee tank has numbers that are too high to deal with!"

The DM is a nice guy, I just think he has a bit of bias against martial characters. I'm also the new guy as the rest of the group grew up together and have been playing for decades. I really like my current character and I don't want to change him overly much but at the same time I do not want to be seen as overpowered.

Things I've done so far to help with balance:

- Since this was brought up to me, I've been donating all my xp to be evenly distributed among the party until they've all caught up in level.

- Lowered his saves by dropping a feat (Steadfast Determination) resulting in a Will save of 4.

- Offered to lower the stat bonuses he gets from his alternate form (he hasn't yet taken me up on this offer).

I'm just hoping if I come back to him with a bunch of core classes that can beat my current character, he might realize that he's not op.

[Telonius]

Okay, so the biggest thing your character has going for it is the stat boosts from being in your alternate form. Problem is that the alternate form is limited in duration and limited per day. So if I were going up against that, I'd want to prepare things that delay the character at first. Wait out the duration, then attack. So let's go with Wizard. Combat starts, and the guy hulks out. Cast Resilient Sphere around yourself. Wait out the duration of the Shifting and the Rage (should be about 10-15 rounds based on your stat description); now he's Fatigued. Dismiss the sphere, and hit him with a Ray of Exhaustion. He's now Exhausted whether or not he makes the save, and is sitting at -8 Dex and Str (compared to his initial stats before he started raging and shifting). None of his Warshaper stuff works, since he's not currently in an alternate form. There's at least a decent chance he can't Power Attack (Strength 12 or lower). He's moving at half speed. Next round, cast Haste on yourself. Stay out of Charge range and plink away at him with spells or arrows.

So, three Core spells: Resilient Sphere (Sor/Wiz4), Ray of Exhaustion (Sor/Wiz3), and Haste (Sor/Wiz3) will shut the guy down, with not much he can do about it. A Sorcerer8 or Wizard7 could technically pull it off.

[Uncle Pine]

Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers can attempt a pseudo-ubercharger tactic using Power Attack and Spirited Charge with a lance while on the back of a mount. Pre-buff by cracking a one-use true strike item (or if that's not available and you're not against it, by dipping into Sorcerer or Wizard and casting it yourself). If kosher, a flying mount makes the 1-round setup easier since your character can't attack something that's up in the sky. Altitude also gives you +1 to-hit. This setup is a bit reliant on how many hp your character actually has, but with a x3 damage multiplier even if the charge doesn't outright kill you it should provide the contestant a significant advantage. Not to mention that a flying mount can also flutter away and repeat the charging cycle anew.
A 12th-level Bard can cast invisibility (or greater) and drop a couple hold monsters until your character fails the save, then coup-de-grace you.*
Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics with the Travel and Trickery domains can all enjoy the pleasure of combining fly, invisibility, a barrage of summoning spells and a bag of popcorn.
A 12th-level Rogue can buy and use wands.
This only leaves out the Monk. With only the PHB and DMG at your disposal I'm not sure how a Monk could reasonably challenge a competent character in single combat, so I'll leave this as an exercise to other better optimizers.


EDIT: *I actually realised that as a Warshaper you are immune to critical hits and thus coup-de-grace attacks. Still, the Bard has greater invisibility and lots of Will-targeting spells as well as UMD for even more spells, so it should pose a decent threat.

[Xervous]

If a decent will save and tripping, tripping! cause problems this smacks of martials not being allowed to have nice things.

Bring out the classic permanently enlarged spiked chain trip barbarian. Able to threaten 5-20ft, 16 starting STR +6 rage + 2 level boosts + 2 enlarge + 4 item = 30 (+10), +4 improved trip +4 size for a comfortable trip score of +18.

Feats
Exotic weapon proficiency: spiked chain
Combat expertise (avoid half orc because of the int penalty)
Combat reflexes
Power attack
Improved trip

The no tripping on AoO is a terrible ruling but not at all surprising.

As a dwarf (+18 to resist opposed trips) this character is liable to beat your toon at its own game. With the reach advantage all the dwarf has to do is land a trip then walk 20ft away. This provokes 1AoO from you. Standing up on your turn generates an AoO for him, then he gets another if you move to threaten. If he fails his first attack he instead commits to a full attack until he trips, then 5ft steps as appropriate to avoid corners.

As he wields a weapon he can drop it to avoid getting counter tripped while you are unable to drop natural weapons and must accept a counter trip. He can draw a replacement as part of his move action while repositioning.

Wielding a 2h weapon he gets 1.5x STR and double returns on power attack. Though he won’t have quite as much CON he’s still quite capable of spreadsheeting his way over your character by producing more attacks at higher quality.

Assuming you have a 34 STR you trip at +16 and resist at +12 (unless I’m misreading improved trip doesn’t help you resist trips, somehow I remember it differently but thems the SRD). He touches on a 2 ( potentially higher if he commits to sufficient power attack) so you are staring down a (95% * 70%) 66.5% chance of getting tripped on his first swing. At +22 to hit he can probably sink some points into power attack and maintain the touching on 2. This makes his damage per hit somewhere around 2d4+20.

Run multiple combats to account for variance, you’ll find this raging tripping dwarf will win the majority.

[Blackhawk748]

Also, just thinking... It way be helpful if I could explain to my DM how the other members in my party could take out my character if they wanted to. Would a Dread Necromancer, Warlock or Wizard be able to do this? Obviously assuming they are the same level.

I don't want to be overpowered but I also don't want to be useless. Just trying to find the right balance.

The Deed Necro throws a Zombie Hydra at you while spamming debuffs.

Yes, it can totally kick the crap out of you. You're just a quirky Natural Attacker, you aren't even doing the trick of having like 200 limbs with Warshaper

[Mordaedil]

You have a +2 to will saves. Stunning Fist could take you out as far as monk is concerned. Any decent caster with a spell that can target that save can easily deal with you.

Your reflex saves are at +5, so you are a bit better at that. Fortitude at +13 is pretty strong, so it isn't recommended to target that.

[RNightstalker]

There are a few possible issues:
-the DM might not be thinking...sending cannon fodder to the tank is going to make you look awesomer. Occasionally you need to attack the guy in the back waving his/her hands and saying funny words.
-there only being one tank-you-means you naturally get the most attention anyway.
-the DM may not understand that magic can do so many greater/different things than smacking something with a sword.
-the party could have an issue with you and have asked the DM to say something, and this is his way of doing it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Honestly, a Druid 12 could probably take out your entire party on his own. Say he has four to six Awakened trees to help fight. After his initial SNA (or during a surprise round) he can cast Wall of Thorns to automatically trap everyone. Then (Lesser Rod of Quickened, or Circlet of Rapid Casting) Sleet Storm to blind everyone who's trapped to make it a 1-on-1 vs your character. Not to mention the shenanigans he can get up to if using non-core sources (Call Avalanche and Blood Snow, Snowsight with Obscuring Snow, Kelpstrand, etc.).

[Garm Fenrir]

Thanks so much guys for all the help. I've got a pretty decent rebuttal typed out for my DM.

I was able to do the following:

- Tripper Barbarian could win the fight, though it was most often not the case because the no tripping on AoO houserule actually worked in my character's favor.

- Spirited Charge Fighter or Paladin mounted with a lance was another close fight and could take a substantial portion of his HP in the first charge but after that he got tripped and lost the advantage.

- Druid simply destroyed my character. Never knew how incredibly powerful they are! Pure insanity!

- Wizard/Sorc could win most of the time depending on if I started them with invisibility or not and if my character didn't roll extremely well on his saving throws. I admit, I'm not very proficient at playing these types of characters.

- Rogue with Use Magic Device was able to beat my character, denying him even a single action. I used wand of Hold Monster, Levitate and Fireball. Not sure if these were the optimal choices but they worked.

[Gusmo]

Your character doesn't have great reflex saves, so quickened grease could put them on the ground, then summon monster, web, or lots of other things on top of that could hold it in place pretty well. Even just quickened grease and web in the same round against them will pretty much kill their movement even if they make both saves. Multiple impediments to movement make each square cost 20' of movement (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#specialMovementRul es), so this combination is good pretty much for the entire game, because beatsticks with low reflex saves and no way to quickly get out are pretty common as enemies.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

- Druid simply destroyed my character. Never knew how incredibly powerful they are! Pure insanity!

Druid is my go-to suggestion for any group that doesn't understand power levels of the classes/builds, or thinks limiting the game to core only will bring about any semblance of game balance. It's absolutely bonkers what the game designers made possible for them in the core rules.

[Gusmo]

Druids are also one of the best options if you encounter a DM who hates dipping. The druid is one of the most well designed classes in that it's a decent option to play the core class all the way to level 20. Most core classes incentivize you to head to a prestige class immediately.

[Zancloufer]

Good to hear that you seemed to be able to resolve this. I do want to comment on:


Thanks for the input! I think he's trying to show me how martial characters 'should' be. But he seems to also believe that nothing in the core book could beat my current character.


100% Core no homebrew martials, kind of suck. A lot. You pretty much NEED splat books and/or dipping to even make a half decent one. There is a reason that people (half) joke about making a Warblade 20 if you want a "Fighter type" with no dips and (almost) no splat books.

[el minster]

Good to hear that you seemed to be able to resolve this. I do want to comment on:



100% Core no homebrew martials, kind of suck. A lot. You pretty much NEED splat books and/or dipping to even make a half decent one. There is a reason that people (half) joke about making a Warblade 20 if you want a "Fighter type" with no dips and (almost) no splat books.

straight 20 levels in *any* class is just boring

[Kelb_Panthera]

straight 20 levels in *any* class is just boring

Nah. If you're not reaching for a build you get to actually choose your feats, skills, and features (including alternate features) based on what you want the character to do instead of trying to meet prerequisites. And in all cases you still have your gear to customize your character unless your GM decides to screw with that element of the game. There are plenty of interesting races too.

I'm not inclined to it, mind, but you can make an interesting character without multiclassing.

[Rhyltran]

Nah. If you're not reaching for a build you get to actually choose your feats, skills, and features (including alternate features) based on what you want the character to do instead of trying to meet prerequisites. And in all cases you still have your gear to customize your character unless your GM decides to screw with that element of the game. There are plenty of interesting races too.

I'm not inclined to it, mind, but you can make an interesting character without multiclassing.

Especially if you factor in archetypes. Those also allow customization but yeah. I can probably take any base class and even without archetypes create five different characters with entirely different builds. Still, multiclassing and prestige classing opens up so many doors.

[el minster]

Especially if you factor in archetypes. Those also allow customization but yeah. I can probably take any base class and even without archetypes create five different characters with entirely different builds. Still, multiclassing and prestige classing opens up so many doors.

5 characters from one class is nothing with prestiege classes there are thousands of options for a class

[Doc_Pippin]

Diplomacy... Straight up, make a charisma machine bard or sorc and avoid the fight, if they are gonna fight NPC vs NPC style then the static diplomacy ceiling is a safe bet, alternatively do a Cha bard leadership swarm build with a ton of low level followers hucking alchemist fires and laying down crossbow fire it could easily turn out to be 165 vs 1 with the primary character and the cohort tanking and healing while the minions flank gank your dude. Abilities in combat do not make a character broken... broken characters can control when combat happens not just how it happens.

[Kelb_Panthera]

5 characters from one class is nothing with prestiege classes there are thousands of options for a class

We weren't talking about prestige classes. We were talking about single class characters. Even before you start adding splats ranger splits itself into two distinct paths that are fairly different from each other with just the combat style feature. Between feats, pick-one style features, alternate features, and skill selection; its trivial to make 5 very different characters of any single class.

[Xervous]

- Tripper Barbarian could win the fight, though it was most often not the case because the no tripping on AoO houserule actually worked in my character's favor.

What exact tactics were you using for the trip barb?

25 pb dwarf

16 STR (+2 levels + 6 rage + 4 item)
12+2CON (+6 rage)
14 DEX (mechanically suboptimal for this challenge but I want a compelling area denial tripper)
8 WIS
13 INT
8-2 CHA

Level 12: 88k wbl

Permanencied enlarge person: 10gp for the enlarge, 2950gp for the permanency. Round this to 3k

+1 Mithral full plate: 11.5k

+1 flaming acidic spiked chain (rounding up, this is a meme tier item but hey, why not?) 19k

+4 STR item 16k

Cloak of resistance +3 9k

Ring of protection +2 8k

Under 67k and I don’t see a point to pack this beyond a bare outline of a typical load out, a suboptimal one even.


12 BAB + 9 STR mod -1 size +1 weapon (+4 vs prone) = +21(25) to hit, 21/16/11

2d4 +2d6+14 for damage pre power attack.

18 +1 magic +2 deflect +2 dex -1 size -2 rage = 20, effective 24 vs prone.

Avg 143 hp

If you want to play it meta, power attack for whatever value leaves him still hitting on 2s. Since all attacks are either post trip or AoOs he’s always using his full attack score, and enjoys the +4 bonus vs prone often. Assuming your warshaper has 20 AC while raging this becomes a -6 power attack which yields a near guaranteed 38 per swing on trip, on standup, and a 75% chance again when the warshaper moves to pursue. In the trip loop the warshaper gets 1 AoO with the -4 prone penalty. Dependent on multiple attacks and denied a chance to ever full attack the barbarian wins with more outgoing damage. There’s simply no way a warshaper is going to match a 26 damage autohit or multiple 38s conditional on the near 70% trip