Paladin Level 8 ASI or Polearm Master

[Fishyninja]

Hello All.

So I have a half elf Paladin (Oath Of Conquest) whom has just hit level 8 and I am trying to decide what would be better, and ASI into his Strength of Polearm Master.

First of all, some background. This campaign is set in Chessenta (think Ancient Greece) so I have gone for a Hoplite-esque build who uses his spell slots primarily for spiritual weapon, smites and on occasion, healing.
At present my character has the following:

Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 14


Spear Mastery:

Though the spear is a simple weapon to learn, it rewards you for the time you have taken to master it. You gain the following benefits.

• You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls you make with a spear.
• When you use a spear, its damage die changes from a d6 to a d8, and from a d8 to a d10 when wielded with two hands. (This benefit has no effect if another feature has already improved the weapon’s die.)
• You can set your spear to receive a charge. As a bonus action, choose a creature you can see
that is at least 20 feet away from you. If that creatures moves within your spear’s reach on its next turn, you can make a melee attack against it with your spear as a reaction. If the attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 piercing damage, or an extra 1d10 piercing damage if you wield the spear with two hands. You can’t use this ability if the creature used the Disengage action before moving.
• As a bonus action on your turn, you can increase your reach with a spear by 5 feet for the rest of your turn.


Full Plate (AC 18)
Shield (AC +2)
Pilum Dracos (Magic Spear)
+1 (General) /+4 (Vs Dragons/Dragonkin) with the following abilities
Can change Elemental Damage once a day, and confers resistance to elemental damage:

Elemental Damages

Extra 1d8 Lighting Damage (4 Times a Day)
1d8 Cold Damage vs 15 Con Save or movement reduced by 10 ft for a turn (Once a Day)
1d10 Fire Damage (As per Firebolt Spell) (Once per Turn)
3d10 Poison Damage (In a 10ft Aura) (Once a Day)
1d10 Acid Damage (Ranged attack) (Once a Day)


Scabbard Of Sharpening
Once per Short Rest, the first attack made with a weapon drawn from this magical sheath (which molds to fit the weapon) gives a +3 to Attack, Second Attack a +2, Third Attack a +1.


So again the crux, is. Do I go for an ASI in Strength to up my Weapon Attack/Damage and STR Skills. Or pick PAM which will allow a 1d4+Str Bonus Attack with the Spear essentially giving me 3 chances to hit (and thus smite) if I do not use my BA for anything else.

[DevilMcam]

Conquest paladins usually rely a lot on their spellcasting (or conquering presence) todo the heavy lin encounters, and for them bumping CHA is often worth more than getting damage from your attacks.

If you usually use your spells a lot then i'd recommand going for +2 CHA it will increase your save DC, sprit weapon damage and acuracy, bonus to saving thros from your aura, and damage from your conquest aura

If you usually smite a lot then polearm master is probbly the better choice.

I have not done the math on a smiting paladin, but if you usually have an extra die of damage (hit for 2d8+3 damage) a+2 to your attribute is usually worth a 20% increase in damage.
PAM will give you an extra BA attack (wich will be about as much damage/!\ much napkin math here/!\, because you can't smite all day with it) and the opportunity to have a reaction attack.

If you want pure damage i'd say go PAM. If there is things you want to do with your extra STR then STR is better, otherwise CHA is awesome

[Fishyninja]

If you usually use your spells a lot then i'd recommand going for +2 CHA it will increase your save DC, sprit weapon damage and acuracy, bonus to saving thros from your aura, and damage from your conquest aura


Usually in Battle I am more focused on front line attacking and smiting primarily as his background is Militaristic, we works well with the GWM Fighter. We then have a Hexblade Warlock. Two Bards and a Wizard.

Again the Cha bump is only really to raise the DC of the Saving Throws and Conquest Aura. It's pretty even keel.
I am wondering whether the STR ASI is worth it as I already have a +1 weapon, and a +1 to Attack with Spears and a Scabbard that gives me a +3/+2/+1 to Attack as well. All the Str is going to do is up the damage output.

[da newt]

In my opinion, PAM is much more beneficial than a +2 ST ASI. The extra attacks will give you many more chances to SMITE when you want max damage, and if you go with a reach weapon you can often attack with near impunity.

However, for a Conquest Pali increasing your CHA is always a good idea as your fear aura is often your most effective weapon.

There is a nice guide for conquest pali builds on this forum.

[Bobthewizard]

Your build and question would be right for a vengeance paladin and for that I'd take PAM over STR.

But for a conquest paladin, especially with all those squishy party members, locking people down would be much more valuable, so I'd definitely vote for bumping CHA eventually to 20 before considering anything else for my ASI's.

[Corran]

Between STR and PAM, I think PAM is the better choice. Spiritual weapon competes for bonus actions, which is bad, but on the hand your charisma is low enough to the point where you are probably better off spending your 2nd level slots mostly with aid and smites. Also, sword and shield means that you wont likely be grappling often enough, to care for the boost in athletics by raising STR. So yeah, PAM.

Generally though, I agree with everyone else who is saying that you should focus on charisma, as I also think it's the most important attribute for conquest paladins. Your strongest options are not your weapon attacks. It's everything that triggers aura of conquest. So wrathful smite, conquering presence, and the fear spell. And then there's your aura. Plus the occasional spell like spiritual weapon (good source for boosting your dpr) and (the situational) hold person (works nicely with your 4th level slots once you get them, still situational though).

So I'd focus on bumping CHA with my ASI's, and on grabbing a feat that will boost my concentration on spells like wrathful smite and fear (ie resilient con). Given your low CHA, I think you'd want to rely more on the fear spell than on conquering presence, just so you could avoid the repeated saves (also fear is generally the stronger effect, but that's why it costs a slot and is harder to place). So I am tempted to say that I would prioritize resilient con to CHA bumps (I'd still bump CHA to 20 with my remaining ASI's), so that you have a good chance of maintaining concentration on wrathful smite (which you will have an easier time spamming, since it's a 1st level spell; and once it sticks, enemies need to use their action to roll a check! against your DC with disadvantage) and on fear (you'll get it next level, but with a large party it will be probably at level 10 when you'll be able to use it more freely, thanks to how aura of courage can take care of friendly fire). Bumping CHA now and delaying resilient till 12 would also not be unreasonable. But yeah, IMO your remaining ASI's should go to maxing your CHA and boosting your concentration, with the order being a bit of a debate for me at this point.

ps: I am not suggesting inspiring leader even though it would be great on such a large party, because it might be better if one of your bards took it, as your low charisma means you are pressed for ASI's.

[Fishyninja]

Ok looks like I am upping Charisma instead!

[CTurbo]

I agree with everyone else that taking +2 to Cha is by far the best choice here, but considering that's not what you asked, I would probably choose PAM over +2 Str, but it's a tough decision. Bumping Str is NEVER a bad choice for any Paladin. I personally don't like "only" having 16 Str so high into a campaign (levels 8-11) so I would be really tempted to bump it, but like you said, you have a +1 weapon and the Spear feat gives you another +1 to hit, I think PAM gives you more.

A Paladin with just 14 Cha is really gimped, and that's even more true for a Conquest IMO.

[Yakk]

I agree Cha is pretty awesome. +1 to all saves for you and nearby allies is strong and only part of it.

PAM makes your gameplay more complex. Reaction on approach, bonus action competition. More decision points.

So do you like complex play? If so, PAM. Otherwise cha.

PAM is also good if you find yourself with 1 encounter days against liches often. 3x smite per round is strong.

[Fishyninja]

PAM is also good if you find yourself with 1 encounter days against liches often. 3x smite per round is strong.

I wish, so far our average combat encounters have included:

'Shadow Demon and Mooks with a High Level spell caster who was casting Hold Person like a madman'
'2 High Level Homebrew Assassins (+12 and +15 to hit) One was a caster the other was a Crossbow Master'
'2 Dire Crocodiles and 10 regular crocs'
'1 CR Adjusted Aboleth, 3 Scags (Skrulls? The Water troll things), 10 Kua Toa

Oh and Last Session we fought a Young Adult Black Dragon, 5 Wyrmlings and 2 humans looking after them in close quarters.

It's a high stakes campaign

[CTurbo]

Do you want to be a better Paladin? Take +2 Cha

Do you want to be a better Fighter? Take PAM

Do you want the safe but solid option? Take +2 Str

[Alucard89]

Ok, so here is how I see it, since I am big fan of playing Paladins.

1. Conquest is the only Oath that I do not consider PAM as essential at all, especially since you don' want to build him for GWM (since they don't have way to get advantage of flat bonus like Devo or Vengeance). That is because they have access to Spiritual Weapon, which is better than non-GWM PAM. Yes it cost resources but it's force damage, scales with slots and makes sure your bonus action can be utilized fully.

2. At level 8 +2 STR is not really needed for you if you do not plan to take GWM, which you shouldn't. +2 CHA on the other hand would be much much better for you at this point. Not only it does increase your Aura passive damage, but also your spiritual weapon chance to hit and damage, your social skills bonuses AND your aura bonus to saves to +3. And most importnat - it increases your DC for spells, which will be PRICELESS once you have Fear spell, because that is bread and butter of Conquest Paladin.

Therefore I would strongly recommend to take +2 CHA and then +2 CHA again at level 12. Also talk with your DM about magic items during campaign. Don't be shy and ask him if there will be possibility to obtain some strength magic items like Ogre Gloves or Giant's Belts. CHA is just so good on Paladin that it's hard to pass.

At this point +2 STR is not worth it and PAM is totally skippable on Conquest thans to Spiritual Weapon. High CHA is what you should aim as it will influence many many things in your kit: saves bonus, spell DC, skills bonus, aura damage, Spiritual Weapon damage and hit chance and spells prepared.

In short: GO FOR +2 CHA, you won't regret it!!!