[Leadership Cohort] Need advices for a Gish of some sort.

[Condé]

Hello dear people of Gitp.

I bothered some of you in a previous post, I wanted to know if it was possible to make a ranged thrower without too many shenanigans. Today, I just passed level 12 and my DM allowed me to take Leadership. (We already have a player that have one)

TL:DR :
• Is a gish a good idea for a cohort ?
• Simple, yet efficace Gish build to recommand ? (No multiple PrC like Class1 X/ Class2 X/ Pr1 X/ PrC2 X / PrC3 X, please.) I'd like something durable and able to deal damage maybe.

UNAUTHORIZED BOOKS : Psionics / PHB2 / Dragon Magazine (And hombrew ofc) / No Online-Stuff-Only (bye bye Swiftblade)

Our party comp is :
• Aasimar Paladin / Fighter CR 12 (Don't know exactly maybe Paladin 11/Fighter 1 or something like that)
• Elf Wizard / Fatespinner CR 12
• Warblade 12 with a lvl 9 Cleric (With DMM and a lot of extra turning)
• Elf Scout 12
• Dragonfire Adept 12 + Cohort ???

With my Charisma and all, I should be able to have a level 10 cohort. Which is good and I know that Leadership is already pretty strong and all...

I have read a LOT of guides/Handbooks over the past few days. But I can't figure exactly what I want to do. Plus, a lot of advised builds are way too complicated for my DM, my table and me in general. As you can see, we have pretty straightforward characters, nobody is a min/maxer or even a "good" player by internet standards. (I guess)
Plus, we're probably not going to be 20 and even if the campaign is going that far, it does not matter THAT much. Too many builds are focused on being level 20 and do not really care about the leveling phase. Which is normal I guess... But I digress.

What I wanted to do in the first place was to make a bard/crusader. Focusing mostly on Crusader and these important points :
• Song of the White Raven (For full bardic music)
• Thicket of Blades & Combat Reflex, a polearm, and making an actual bodyguard of sort for my party. While it could be potentially funny, I don't really know if it's viable or not.

First Question : Could it be viable at level 10+ to be a Crusader, as a cohort... I mean it's a Cohort and being 2 levels behind could be potentially dangerous since it's goign to be in frontlane with this kind of build. Even with thicket of blades and everything...

But I'm really interested into making a Gish too and Crusader X/Bard 2 or 4 is not really good with spelcasting... And I fear that this character is going to be near to useless against flying opponents. (We are already struggling against these imo)

So... Second Question : Is it a good idea to be a melee gish for a Cohort ?
If I want to be a Bard Gish, should I take Crusader levels ?
Should I take the Sublime Chord Prc ?
Some people even talked about Abjurant Champion for a Bard (This PrC looks so neat btw) or even Jade Phoenix Mage.

Third Question : Is there a good archery-gish build without too many shenanigans out there ? (Or without Deadly Aim from Pathfinder...)
Look'd a lot of guide about Archery... And what I can tell it's... It looks pretty underwhelming. I mean if you want to do some decent damage, you are going to need so much feats and you can't even add your cha or dex to damage permanently.

As you can tell, my main problem with D&D is... I don't know what I want.
I mean, there is SO much stuff you can do and you have only so few characters to make...

Thank you in advance.

[Nifft]

Gish isn't great for a Cohort since the NPC will be behind in level (as a Cohort), then a bit more behind in casting and BAB as a gish, and usually a gish demands more attention but you may have less to give because it's not your main PC.

(If your main PC is too simple and you want an attention-sink, then that last point should be ignored. It looks like you're a Dragonfire Adept so perhaps your PC is rather simple in play? UMD + gear can add a lot of complexity if you go for it.)


Anyway...

Crusader 10 is an excellent Cohort which shouldn't be too complex. The main complication is randomly picking maneuvers, but that's easily solved by making a deck and either shuffling it yourself, or having the DM shuffle it and you draw face-down maneuver cards when appropriate.

Straight-up Crusader is survivable and ought to be able to tank even with the level penalty. The delayed damage pool gives you an extra turn to react to damage spikes, and the self-healing often obviates the need for someone else to assist. Straight Crusader is a great cohort choice which will be viable even as level increases, and should be able to protect your PC for quite a while.

Polearm is one way to go, but not the best fit for a Crusader. Take a look at the Devoted Spirit shield-based maneuvers which allow the Crusader to block an attack on an ally, or block any one attack.

White Raven Tactics is possibly the best maneuver in the game. You want more turns? Your NPC gives them to you.

[Condé]

Hello Nifft, thank you for your answer :)

You're right, my PC is actually pretty straightforward to play and I'm looking for a bit more to do each round. I mean Dragonfire Adept is fine, but not really difficult to play with.

I know that there is no way that a cohort should be able to be as strong as a PC, because of the reduced effective levels, but I don't really want to do what the Warblade do with her Cleric... A buffer/support for the party. It's such a waste of a character (and of a cleric) as she just stand behind us most the time buffing/healing.
It's pretty boring.

Reading through many threads and books on my free time and still want to make too many different characters.

A bit convoluted for our standards at my table but, not sure if it could work but :
Barbarian 1-2? (Lion totem for Pounce) / Fighter 4 (for feats) / Crusader 1 for Thicket of Blades / Frenzied Berserker and looking for Shocktrooper, Leap attack, Karmic Strike etc.. But it would probably be too feat intensive and maybe too late of a build to be played.

Building a barbarian around "Three Moutain" feat looks pretty fun too. It's a save-or-suck I guess, but looks funny to me.

And there's the abjurant champion... And Sulbime Chord too... Argh. Too many things...

[Quentinas]

I would avoid sublime chord , not because that is too strong for a chort or for nothing but because it enter in level 11 and you cohort start at 10 so i would not like it as a player
But thinking of a gish with bard and crusader you could try do to this
Bard 4/ Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Jade phoenix mage 4 in this way you end up with Base attack 9 and casting as bard of 8th level

Or to have more spellcasting while not lagging behind with spells you could substitue the levels of bard with battle sorcerer level so you would have level 4 slot as a sorcerer but still good bab , with more slot to use arcane strike or the phoenix stance. But you wouldn't have song of the white raven as feat, because you wouldn't have bardic music

[Condé]

Hello Quentinas, thank you for your answer.

Interesting. But the Stalwart Sorcerer wouldn't be better than the Battle Sorcerer since the last has a lower BAB ?
Plus, I'm not really familiar with the Jade Phoenix Mage, despite knowing that it's pretty popular for gishing, could you tell me what make this PrC interesting over... Abjurant Champion for example ?
AbjChampion is notorious for having a boosted Luminous armor, full BAB + 1 CL and only 5 levels long.

JpM only have d6 hp/ first level does not grant spellcasting... But you have maneuvers, I guess for balancing but I'm not really familiar with these.
And the thing is, we already have a lot (And I mean A LOT) of fire damage.
The Warblade is mostly dealing fire damage by his maneuvers, Paladin got a sword that deals fire damage and our Wizard can cast Fireball, even if it's not that often. And as far as I can see, Jade Phoenix Mage seems to be focused around dealing fire damage. (Which seem pretty... Logical. Since... There is "Phoenix" in its name... I guess.)

[Quentinas]

Well you can apply both stalwart sorcerer and battle sorcerer, generally i prefer to use the second if i know i will multiclass to gain more proficiency with the weapon , while the first is useful to enter in gish classes without having need to gain proficiency somewhere

The thing with abjurant champion for me is quite easy, to use the best of the abjurant one need to know abjuration spell, and generally a sorcerer doesn't have so many spell known to use the best spell and having good abjuration spell. So i prefer jade phoenix mage that boost my spell damage and give me a way to boost weapon damage using spell slot. And no you will don't do so much fire damage, at least not without maneveurs. The Jade phoenix mage do fire damage with 2 of his ability , one gained at level 6 (that is a level where you lose a caster level), and one gained at level 10 (well only half is fire damage in that case) but desert wind maneveurs generally do fire damage so maybe is not the best idea.

Another idea that could be useful is having a spellthief cohort, so you could help the scout , while needing the wizard to steal his spell but i would need to search some build for a spellthief, because i don't use that class so much , or using a chameleon, but i'm unsure if you like it as gish

[Gruftzwerg]

I could offer 2 builds of mine that could be of interest. While they are optimized, you can take em as guideline and drop the dmg optimization that you think would be to much.

(links see signature)

My glaivelock is a dirty lil Kobold using his Elditch Glaive. Warlock and only 2 prc, while you could downsize him to single warlock if you want. Has imho a good fluff ceiling and thus could bring much fun into the party. Is specialized as front-liner and can achieve a high AC score (even touch AC). Due to the simple small selection of warlock abilities/invocation this is a simplified gish build that doesn't need much patience or preparation like other casters would do. Imho the best solution for a simple straightforward build.

My El Mariachi build on the other hand is a bit more specialized and class splattered. Again, you don't need to take everything if you want to keep the powerlvl low. Just pick the nice stuff that you like. It's a twf double crossbow build with some nice healing abilities. You could go for normal crossbows (and thus drop the urban druid) and go for a more normal bard build instead.

[Condé]

@Quentinas
If you read that, I have several questions...

Sorcerer 4/ Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Jade phoenix mage 4 => It looks pretty interesting actually. Could you tell me more about that build ? (Spell, maneuvers, feat... Would you take Arcane preparation for being able to have Luminous armor for example ?) Plus, it doesn't look so frail (thanks to Battle sorcerer's D8) and doesn't loose too much CL.
I suppose after that you just go for JpM until 10.

Could a build like Crusader or Warblade 1/Wu Jen 5/Jade Pheonix Mage 4 be viable too ?
I like the idea of this, you can find a reference to it on the Gish Handbook from Gitp. But since its focused around the idea of using Emerald Immolation + Transcendent Mortality, I have no idea if it is a good idea to play this at low-mid level.

Or maybe Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 3 ? (I think I like this more than something like Magicien 2 / Fighter 4 / Abjurant Champion 4 even if you would have more feats...)
In this case you lose absolutely no spellcasting ability (Except 1 of your higher level spell slot because of stalwart)
I mean, I guess everything is viable technically...

Oh and I'm looking more and more into Sacred Exorcist. It looks so great, the idea of being an arcane spellcaster with Turn/rebuke undead seems so cool. Sadly, it lookis that people only take some dip in it (max being 8 levels) and pretty lately... And I can see why, you need dismissal or dispel evil and these are level 4 spells. Which kind of suck in my case but I really like the class.

@Gruftzwerg Your builds look nice, and your "1STR kobold" made me laugh. Otherwise, as I'm playing a Dragonfire Adept, I don't really want to play as a Warlock... Both have invocation. Even if I wouldn't play both the same way (One being a gish and the other a... Supernatural ability spammer... ?) I'm not really interested.

For the El mariachi, I didn't think about double crossbow and didn't see people talk about this much. It looks cool too.

[Quentinas]

To reason on Luminous armor i would like to know your alignment, because if i remember well there is a malus if you recruit a cohort of a different alignment , and at least with my DM it would be high improbable so to reason on that i would like to know the alignment (with jade phoenix mage would not be a problem because it require only to be non evil that is easier than being good)

For the progression of the build depends if you like more spell or more maneuvers, to do a simple build yeah i would continue jade phoenix mage until level 10 , and the last two level i would take stalwart sorcerer
To do a more complicated build you could do something like this (but being a cohort rarely i do something like this)
Sorcerer 4/Crusader 1/Jade phoenix mage 5/legacy champion 9 so you would not be focused on fire , and the legacy item of the NPC could be an interesting turn on the story
The 4° level of the jade phoenix mage in each case would be one that i would like to take in each case

For the feats well let's try this , is a quick build until level 10 (not refined)
1° Combat casting/Arcane preparation/weapon legacy (depend on the build)
1° (bonus of the class) Obtain familiar
3° Power attack
6° Adaptative style
9° Arcane strike

This is without the race because i don't know if you already have ideas for your cohort , if there is a link with your character or anything else
For maneuvers i would go more in general with devoted spirit and thicket of blades, sorry but now i don't have my tome of battle so i don't remember the maneuvers so i can't suggest so much

Stalwart battle sorcerer 7/Abjurant champion 3 can be done is classical but is a good gish, while with the wu jen probably would be something like this
Wu jen 5/Warblade 1/Jade phoenix mage, as he cast on intelligence and the warblade is better on that side than the crusader. I don't know if there would be something interesting, didn't played so much the wu jen sorry

For sacred exorcist... i think it would be more interesting with the wu jen because he doesn't need level 5 spell to enter (as he has dispel evil as spell of level 4) but i'm quite unsure if a good gish can be done with sacred exorcist

[Evoker]

At risk of being deemed a rules pedant, you and your DM should know that per RAW, and in my opinion RAI, you don't actually get to 100% choose the precise build or even the class of your leadership cohort. "A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment." Quote from the SRD, bolding mine. Try definitely implies a chance to fail, and as there is no guidelines, it's up to the DM if you succeed or not. Just something to keep in mind.

[Condé]

@Evoker

Thank you for your input. I already read that. And as far as I know, our warblade got the character he wanted, without any restriction I believe.
As for some, it would be up to the DM to take control of your cohort and not you as a player. So I guess it must be "table dependent".

I already ask him and it seems that I can do whatever I want. But yeah, by RAW you're right.

[Nifft]

Hello Nifft, thank you for your answer :)

You're right, my PC is actually pretty straightforward to play and I'm looking for a bit more to do each round. I mean Dragonfire Adept is fine, but not really difficult to play with.

I know that there is no way that a cohort should be able to be as strong as a PC, because of the reduced effective levels, but I don't really want to do what the Warblade do with her Cleric... A buffer/support for the party. It's such a waste of a character (and of a cleric) as she just stand behind us most the time buffing/healing.
It's pretty boring.

Reading through many threads and books on my free time and still want to make too many different characters.

So, as a pure Crusader your cohort would NOT be restricted to just healing & buffing, but would be a legitimate tank. There would also be healing, but that's either part of the tankiness (self-heals) or just plain bonus healing on top of being a legitimate threat the enemy can't ignore AND legitimate brick wall that the enemy can't punch through.

Your PC could stand adjacent and throw down breath weapon damage, allowing your PC a closer, more active role in melee -- while you'd still be relatively safe, because your cohort could protect you.

Your cohort as a pure Crusader might enable you to be more pro-active and engaged with both of your turns.

Does your PC have max ranks in UMD already? If so then get some Touch range wands.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There's no reason a bardsader wouldn't work, but you would play them more as buffer/flanker than a true gish. Most crusader abilities require you to be in melee or close to melee to work, so standing behind the party and buffing isn't an option. Your build is something like this:

Silverbrow human bard 8/crusader 2
Elite array/25 pb: 8/12/13/14/10/15, increases in Intelligence and Constitution, final scores 8/12/14/15/10/15 (for higher point-buys, increase Strength, and maybe get 16 Charisma to pick up a bonus third-level spell)
(1) Dragonfire Inspiration
(human) Lingering Song
(3) Draconic Aura (Senses)
(6) Words of Creation
(bard 6) Song of the Heart
(9) Song of the White Raven

Alternatives, or things you can get with flaws:
Extra Granted Maneuver instead of Draconic Aura gets you more White Raven Tactics.
Versatile Spellcaster instead of Draconic Aura gets you more third-level spells for haste.
Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage instead of Lingering Song and Draconic Aura lets you choose the energy type of your Dragonfire Inspiration.

You'd want to provide your cohort with a vest of legends (+5 effective levels for bardic music) and, if 3.0 content is allowed, a masterwork war horn (grants +1 Inspire Courage attack/damage bonus, but removes the bonus on saves).

Round 1 of combat looks like this:
Active stance -- Tactics of the Wolf (+3 damage to any target you flank)
Swift action -- activate Inspire Courage with Words of Creation (take 3d4 nonlethal damage)
Standard action -- activate Dragonfire Inspiration with Words of Creation (take 3d4 nonlethal damage)
Move action -- move while drawing lesser metamagic rod of quicken (if you don't need to cast any buffs, you can simply move into flanking range and draw your weapon)
Free action -- cast Quickened haste (or other buff spell)

If we're assuming both the vest and the horn, you're giving the party +10 attack and damage and +10d6 fire damage to every attack for the next 10 rounds, as well as haste for 8 rounds. (The IC/DFI bonus is +6/+6d6 without the items, so it's still very much worth using.)

Round 2 and up are all about flanking and getting tactical maneuvers in (White Raven Tactics, Vanguard Strike, Douse the Flames, Defensive Rebuke), but your full attack can be dangerous, too. Your base attack bonus isn't that impressive (+8 in an ECL 12 party), and you have a penalty to Strength, but with stacked Inspiration, even a cheap masterwork glaive will attack at +19/+19/+14 (1d10+9 slashing and 10d6 fire, average 49.5). And flanking helps with hitting and damage now, so that's nice. When your cohort delivers a 100+-damage full attack, you'll know it's not like that cleric standing in the back :smalltongue:.

(N.B. You do have Charisma to Will, so you could swap Wisdom and Strength, if that penalty bothers you. I kept Strength at 8 because it's funny to see someone so obviously not a warrior eat face with such gusto.)

Your aura provides a passive +2 Listen, Spot, and Initiative to everyone within 60' (there are other options if you don't like that), so that will help start the fight on your terms (a little).

PHBII has some cool teamwork benefits that would be really appropriate to such a character (Awareness, Crowded Charge, Improved Cunning Ambush), but sadly, that book is off-limits.

[Falontani]

This might be too complex... but

1. Elf Combat Wizard: BAB 0, Effective Wizard Level (EWL) 1
Point Blank Shot(b), Precocious Apprentice: Lesser Fireball
2. Wizard: BAB 1, EWL 2
3. Stoneblessed: BAB 1, EWL 2
Precise Shot
4. Stoneblessed: BAB 2, EWL 2
5. Stoneblessed: BAB 3, EWL 2
Toughness(b)
6. Goliath Barbarian: BAB 4, EWL 2
Combat Casting
7. Rage Mage: BAB 4, EWL 2
8. Rage Mage: BAB 5, EWL 3
9. Abjurant Champion: BAB 6, EWL 4
Weapon Focus: Longbow
10. Arcane Archer: BAB 7, EWL 4
11. Arcane Archer: BAB 8, EWL 4
12. Abjurant Champion: BAB 9, EWL 5
Far Shot
13. Abjurant Champion: BAB 10, EWL 6
14. Abjurant Champion: BAB 11, EWL 7
15. Abjurant Champion: BAB 12, EWL 8
Mountain Warrior
16. Cragtop Archer: BAB 13, EWL 8
17. Cragtop Archer: BAB 14, EWL 8
18. Cragtop Archer: BAB 15, EWL 8
Pracitced Spellcaster: Wizard
19. Rage Mage: BAB 16, EWL 8
20. Rage Mage: BAB 17, EWL 9

Basically. You shoot really far, and can add in any AOE spell that you can cast to a single shot. Your Caster Level is 20. You have up to 5th level spells. A well placed Evard's Black Tentacles placed directly on someone else' mage from over a thousand feet can really put a damper on their day. You can full attack for 4-5 shots, but you are using a longbow which is not the most powerful weapon. If you can get him a Hank's Energy Bow then you can really put your strength to use, otherwise you would need either a Sizing Longbow of 1 strength, or a Longbow with 1 str and a Large Longbow with a higher str.

Different gish:

1. Changeling Rogue 1: BAB 0, EWL 0, CL 0
Able Learner
2. Changeling Wizard 1: BAB 0, EWL 1, CL 1
3. Spellthief 1: BAB 0, EWL 1, CL 1
Racial Emulation
4. Half-Elf Paragon 1: BAB 0, EWL 1, CL 1
Two Weapon Fighting
5. Half-Elf Paragon 2: BAB 1, EWL 2, CL 2
6. Human Paragon 1: BAB 1, EWL 2, CL 2
Weapon Focus: Dagger
7. Human Paragon 2: BAB 2, EWL 3, CL 6
Master Spellthief
8. Daggerspell Mage: BAB 2, EWL 3, CL 7
9. Daggerspell Mage: BAB 3, EWL 4, CL 8
Point Blank Shot
10. Daggerspell Mage: BAB 4, EWL 5, CL 9
11. Daggerspell Mage: BAB 5, EWL 6, CL 10
12. Daggerspell Mage: BAB 5, EWL 7, CL 11
Far Shot
13. Daggerspell Mage: BAB 6, EWL 8, CL 12
14. Invisible Blade: BAB 7, EWL 8, CL 12
15. Invisible Blade: BAB 8, EWL 8, CL 12
Arcane Strike
16. Invisible Blade: BAB 9, EWL 8, CL 12
17. Invisible Blade: BAB 10, EWL 8, CL 12
18. Invisible Blade: BAB 11, EWL 8, CL 16
Pracitced Spellcaster: Wizard
19. Daggerspell Mage: BAB 12, EWL 9, CL 17
20. Daggerspell Mage: BAB 13, EWL 10, CL 18

Skill Monkey. Feints in combat every round. Free action spend spell slots to deal more damage on a successful hit. Double Daggercast 2 round/level touch spells (like chill touch) and stab people with touch spells each round. But your mostly a skill monkey with access to 5ths. (no its not the best gish)

[Condé]

@ ExLibrisMortis

This looks ridiculous. I love it.

@Felontani

These look cool too. A bit complicated and sadly I won't be able to do any of it because...

My GM told me this morning that we have to finish a prestige classe before being able to take another one. So no Prestige-Class dip... If I go for Abjurant, I would have to take the whole 5 levels before doing anything else. If I take a level of Jade Phoenix Mage, I would have to take 10 level and so on.

Goodbye Swordsage dip.

@ Quentinas

Oh and for Sacred Exorcist, for what I understand, you can be an arcane gish and get rebuke, opening DMM options for an arcane spellcaster. Which is pretty cool if you take the variant Sorcrer with a domain (War) you have now access to Divine Power as an arcane Gish. Plus some other spell to persist via Divine Meta Magic.

[Falontani]

My GM told me this morning that we have to finish a prestige classe before being able to take another one. So no Prestige-Class dip... If I go for Abjurant, I would have to take the whole 5 levels before doing anything else. If I take a level of Jade Phoenix Mage, I would have to take 10 level and so on.



Abjurant champion is still good for a full run through. The first build could still work, although I'd drop rage mage entirely, and unfortunately I'd be stuck choosing cragtop or arcane archer. Probably safe to go fully into cragtop before grabbing aa at the end, but that rule really kills the majority of gishes. You could probably still do a:
Duskblade 6/Abjurant Champion 5/crusader 1/jade Phoenix mage 8
... Except no phb2. Hmm.

I'll look into a fun Warlock gish when I have time if you'd like

[Quentinas]

If you have to finish your prestige class before entering in another one probably your best bet would be something like this

Battle sorcerer 6/Abjurant champion 5 as start and then do 1 level of crusader and jade phoenix mage (losing in total 3 caster level), using the eldritch knight (that doesn't add so much but you lose only a caster level), Legacy champion (to do an item without having so many problem and losing a total of 2 caster level)

These finish at high bab and with high level spell , i would prefer the last option, but i'm unsure if the DM will permit legacy item on a cohort, rather than on a PC