Tenser's Transformation Vs Divine Power: Continuous or Use-Activated items.

[Evoker]

So I'm looking into optimisation using custom magic items, and two spells that stuck out to me as interesting are Tenser's Transformation, and Divine Power.
Tenser's Transformation and Divine power share a very interesting aspect: They give the user full base attack bonus, as a fighter. Unfortunately, they are Personal range, and last in rounds/level. This difficulty can be overcome with, most practically, a continuous item of the spell in question.
My question is, on a non-full BaB melee type like a Rogue or Monk (or a Gish, or anyone else who's going to be taking full attacks who doesn't have ideal BAB.), is the price of a custom continuous item of these spells worth it, for the extra BaB and sundry other bonuses. Is the 30,000 (Divine Power off of the Runescarred Berzerker list), 58,000 (Less optimised / core only Divine Power, off of the cleric list), or even 132,000 GP (Tenser's Transformation, off the Sor/Wiz list) GP worth the price? Or would that chunk of WBL be better put towards utility items or more traditional combat items. Because getting full BaB on a Rogue for extra iterative seems nice, but I don't know if it's that nice (For example, using the same bargain spell trick, you can get continuous Haste for only 2000 gp, it seems, as Haste is a level 1 trap-smith spell.). If possible, I'd like an answer regarding "as intended" spell levels, and assuming an artificer and lenient GM who'll allow bargain custom magic item tricks.
Both Divine Power and Tenser's Transformation are in the Player's Handbook and SRD (Although presumably for copyright reasons, Tenser's Transformation is listed as merely "Transformation")

[Kayblis]

You're forgetting that continuous items for round/lv spells have a x4 modifier attached to it. This makes most of the cited items Epic, and thus unattainable in any real game where it matters. That also puts that trick Haste item at 8000gp, which is still a bargain.

In few words, no. It's not worth all your money up to 15th+ level to get a ~+3 to hit and maybe an iterative at -15.
The option people have used to get these buffs is using Persistent Spell MM with some reducers, most commonly Divine Metamagic on a Cleric, and those are known as Persistomancers. You can have a lot of power with this combo, because many great buffs can be turned into 24h duration spells with it. The main idea is not actually paying the price as intended.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, the custom item "rules" are really just guidelines for the DM to use, not for players.

Second, it says to base the price on the effect itself, and only resort to pricing it off the spell if it's a unique effect.

Divine Power would first have the enhancement bonus to Str at +6 for 36k gp.

Then the untyped attack bonus which would be variable based on character level but due to being untyped would be very expensive given its potential to grant +10 to a 1/2 BAB character at 20th level, so minimum 10*10*2000 since that's what an enhancement bonus would be but it's better because it's untyped and grants iterative attacks. Also that's too high a potential bonus for a non-epic item so the whole thing is at x10.

Then add an amount for the temporary HP it grants.

Then increase the enhancement bonus to Str and the temporary hp cost by 50% due to having multiple effects on the same item (that's on top of the x10 for being an epic item).

You're looking at a cost of about three million gp for this item, if your DM has any sense and actually follows the guidelines.

[Evoker]

You're forgetting that continuous items for round/lv spells have a x4 modifier attached to it. This makes most of the cited items Epic, and thus unattainable in any real game where it matters. That also puts that trick Haste item at 8000gp, which is still a bargain.

Wow. I totally missed that, but there it is, right in the SRD. A bit hidden in a footnote, but right there. How did I not notice that, I wonder. Boy am I embarrassed now. But neatly enough, a Use-Activated, One charge per day item of Superior Resistance (Spell Comp) would cost a mere 13,200 GP, according to what I can tell (6[spell level]*11[caster level]*2000*0.2[Charged, one charge per day]*0.5[Special case for Use-activated items that replicate a 24 hour duration or longer spell]). That provides a +6 resistance bonus to all saves for less than the cost of a +4 cloak, plus it doesn't use up a body slot. A bit more vulnerable to dispelling though. Is that right, or am I missing something else important? Because that seems... a bit broken.

EDIT: oh right, those pesky guidelines about basing the price off the effect by default. I guess I should alter the overall question: Would picking up a wand of the level 3 version be worth it, or would the action economy required to activate the 5 round buff be too extreme to make the bonus worth the effort.

[Evoker]

First of all, the custom item "rules" are really just guidelines for the DM to use, not for players.

Second, it says to base the price on the effect itself, and only resort to pricing it off the spell if it's a unique effect.

Divine Power would first have the enhancement bonus to Str at +6 for 36k gp.

Then the untyped attack bonus which would be variable based on character level but due to being untyped would be very expensive given its potential to grant +10 to a 1/2 BAB character at 20th level, so minimum 10*10*2000 since that's what an enhancement bonus would be but it's better because it's untyped and grants iterative attacks. Also that's too high a potential bonus for a non-epic item so the whole thing is at x10.

Then add an amount for the temporary HP it grants.

Then increase the enhancement bonus to Str and the temporary hp cost by 50% due to having multiple effects on the same item (that's on top of the x10 for being an epic item).

You're looking at a cost of about three million gp for this item, if your DM has any sense and actually follows the guidelines.
I really don't think that's accurate. +10 is the maximum, not the minimum, and that's if a level 20 character with the lowest BAB possible is using the spell. And how many situations can you possibly run into where a wizard/sorcerer/similar wants to be making a attack roll that has a chance at missing at level twenty? A practical minimum would be much closer to +3 to +5 ish. Of course, it's an unusual bonus type (practically non-existent in terms of any other effect). Furthermore, the calculation of bonus squared*2000 is for a weapon enchantment, so you're either deliberately ignoring or forgetting that that includes a +10 damage bonus for each attack as well.
But at any rate, Divine Power is about the furthest you can get from a 'typical effect'. It's an attack bonus that scales with the target's level, but inversely with the target's martial skill. Furthermore, it alters base attack bonus. I think it and the very similar Tenser's are the only things in the game that do that. This is probably the one of the better opportunities for an item that's not similar to an existing item to use the spell-based item creation.
And to wrap it all up, you forgot this important line: "multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10" (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm#marketPrice). In short, what that means is that only your theoretical +10 bonus (witch, as above, is clearly a complete overstatement of the actual bonus provided by the spell, on multiple levels) would be multiplied by ten, and the +6 strength bonus would sit comfortably at 36*1.5.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I really don't think that's accurate. +10 is the maximum, not the minimum, and that's if a level 20 character with the lowest BAB possible is using the spell. And how many situations can you possibly run into where a wizard/sorcerer/similar wants to be making a attack roll that has a chance at missing at level twenty? A practical minimum would be much closer to +3 to +5 ish. Of course, it's an unusual bonus type (practically non-existent in terms of any other effect). Furthermore, the calculation of bonus squared*2000 is for a weapon enchantment, so you're either deliberately ignoring or forgetting that that includes a +10 damage bonus for each attack as well.
But at any rate, Divine Power is about the furthest you can get from a 'typical effect'. It's an attack bonus that scales with the target's level, but inversely with the target's martial skill. Furthermore, it alters base attack bonus. I think it and the very similar Tenser's are the only things in the game that do that. This is probably the one of the better opportunities for an item that's not similar to an existing item to use the spell-based item creation.
And to wrap it all up, you forgot this important line: "multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10" (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm#marketPrice). In short, what that means is that only your theoretical +10 bonus (witch, as above, is clearly a complete overstatement of the actual bonus provided by the spell, on multiple levels) would be multiplied by ten, and the +6 strength bonus would sit comfortably at 36*1.5.

Regarding pricing at as an enhancement bonus, I was comparing it to the closest similar effect. Compare +X attack and more iterative attacks that stacks with all other bonuses, to +X to attack and damage. Comparing pricing of AC bonuses and saving throw bonuses, the uncommon named bonuses are two to two and a half times higher than the common named bonuses. So even if you cut the enhancement bonus in half from squared x 2k to squared x 1k, it being an untyped bonus would bring it right back up to bonus squared x 2k.

Additionally, since it has the potential to increase your BAB by that much, it should be priced as though it does. Otherwise you would need to put a hard limit on it (sets your BAB to your character level, but can't set it higher than your current BAB plus five) to price it any lower.

There's already an item that changes your BAB. The Skillful weapon enchantment in CA gives you proficiency with that weapon and sets your BAB to 3/4 your level for attacks with just that weapon for a +2 bonus. Switching to full BAB is significantly better and should be at least double that, if not a +5 equivalent or more, for attacks made with just that particular weapon. Note that this won't help you meet BAB prerequisites for anything.

[Evoker]

There's already an item that changes your BAB. The Skillful weapon enchantment in CA gives you proficiency with that weapon and sets your BAB to 3/4 your level for attacks with just that weapon for a +2 bonus. Switching to full BAB is significantly better and should be at least double that, if not a +5 equivalent or more, for attacks made with just that particular weapon. Note that this won't help you meet BAB prerequisites for anything.

The Skillful weapon property is significant in that it gives you proficiency, even in a powerful exotic weapon, allowing even a non-combatant to use a martial or exotic weapon. Divine Power's boost to BAB does not provide that bonus, and because of that, it's use is far more limited to those characters who already have a good weapon proficiency. Assuming the "worst case" as you did for the BAB, a skillful weapon's property of granting proficiency effectively grants three feats to a wizard or other character with no weapon proficiency: Simple Weapon Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Exotic Weapon Proficiency. (that, or a +4 bonus to hit, and even in the very worst case of comparing a wizard with a Skillful [insert any exotic or martial weapon here] and a wizard with the divine power item and [insert any exotic or martial weapon here], the wizard with the Skillful weapon has only one less bonus to hit and one less attack at -20 to hit (mostly ignoble except in the case of a natural twenty). Still want to make the argument that a Skillful weapon is less than half as good as the Divine Power BAB boost? And remember, that's the absolute WORST case. In the event that we have two wizard 15s, or two clerics or other 3/4 BAB, the to-hit favors the Skillful weapon every time. And designing an item to only be good at level 20, and overpriced at any other level is a bad plan in general, given that the vast majority of campagns don't get to level 20, and at level twenty even boosting your BAB to max and getting a +6 to strength is hardly going to be strong.

Furthermore, looking at the specific line that you seem to be using as justification: "Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values." (SRD). Now, that's fairly unclear, but it definitely doesn't say or imply "don't use the rules for spell-based items unless it's absolutely necessary, and there's no way you could possibly draw any connection between the item's effect and another effect." which is what you seem to be doing.

In short, while it's true that there is verbiage about "similar effects" it's fairly clear that the way that you are approaching it isn't very logical. And your assertion that any "DM (that) has any sense and actually follows the guidelines" would price an item of continuous Divine Power at approximately 3 million GP is both incredibly confrontational and fairly inaccurate, and seems to be more of a "look how smart I am" than actually contributing to the conversation at hand. Because pricing the item of divine power as I did is following the guidelines, so long as you don't make comparisons between totally separate features (an entirely variable boost to Base attack bonus likely between three to five and a +10 bonus to hit and damage) that are far more of a stretch than just accepting that there isn't an existing item that already does something like this item.

[Maat Mons]

Ultimately, a newly-designed item should be given a price based on what it's worth. No matter what guidelines and comparisons went into coming up with a price, if it's so cheep that people would be stupid not to buy it, that price is wrong, and if it's so expensive that no one would even consider buying it, that price, too, is wrong.

[Gruftzwerg]

EDIT: oh right, those pesky guidelines about basing the price off the effect by default. I guess I should alter the overall question: Would picking up a wand of the level 3 version be worth it, or would the action economy required to activate the 5 round buff be too extreme to make the bonus worth the effort.

The wand must be of a minimum lvl able to cast the spell.
But other than that, yeah. That is what you are supposed as rogue. UMD wands for the spells you need.
Since rogues also make often use of the hide skills, they choose most of the time when the fight starts and thus can prebuff.

[Biggus]

Second, it says to base the price on the effect itself, and only resort to pricing it off the spell if it's a unique effect.


I never noticed that, where does it say that?

[Rebel7284]

If you take extend spell and persistent spell (you don't need to be a caster to do either), you can then UMD a minor schema of Metamagic Item (Artificer infusion level 3) and apply that to a Staff of Divine Power and then UMD that.