BBEG using Feeblemind

[Maelynn]

My idea: I plan on having a powerful being imprisoned and subdued by (lackeys of) a BBEG, who uses Feeblemind on the being that's always recast on the 30th day to keep the effect continuous.

I had a few ways of how I could go about this:


BBEG is a powerful caster of level 15+, every 30 days he appears in person to recast the spell himself
BBEG has crafted/found a magic item (wand maybe?) that allows a lackey to cast the spell once every 30 days
BBEG crafts potions that are shipped to the location and lackeys feed the being a potion every 30 days


Option 1 seems risky and I'd reckon a BBEG is too busy/important to make a trip to the prison in person every time. The BBEG would've found a way to delegate this tedious task - after all, that's what you have lackeys for, right?
Option 2 could work, using the rules on magic item creation in the DMG/XGtE*, but wouldn't this be too OP in a campaign for 7th level PCs (partly because of the possibility they get their hands on the item)? Also, what restrictions would the item have regarding the wielder? Surely an item for a spell that high can't be wielded by just anyone, can it? And what determines the item's rarity - and as such its cost?
Option 3 seems good but has me stumped, because I can find hardly anything on potion making in regards to 8th level spells with saving throws. And the magic item creation section of the DMG says nothing about DCs either. Nor does the list of potions in the magic item section; only the Potion of Poison has a DC, but that's for the poisoned condition and not the initial damage. So.. is the spell's saving throw void due to ingestion? Or is the DC set within the potion, like with a magic wand? Is it even possible to craft a potion from any spell you want?

I know I could just pick any of the above options and use the "because I say so" reasoning a DM has in their arsenal, but I find that too easy. To me, it has to make sense. Feel logical/reasonable. So please help me figure out the 'best' way I can set up my idea. I'm also very much open to other options than the ones I listed.

* bit confusing that DMG and XGtE use different tables for magic item creation, does XGtE override the DMG because it's newer?

[Gungor]

The effects of feeblemind are permanent with the target getting to repeat the save every month. I don't see how returning to cast the spell every month is any different. The spell would need to be recast if the victim were to make their save. But with an INT of 1, the victim takes -5 to their INT saves. So, if not proficient, they auto-fail if the DC is 16 or higher.

So I'll add option 4: Have the BBEG saving throw be sufficiently high so that one successful casting does the job.

But I'll also add option 5: Create an object which accomplishes your story goal. So make something like a torc of feeblemind which, once placed around the victim's neck, subjects them to the spell. Then set up conditions for successfully removing the torc, which destroys it forever. This can be wish, greater restoration, heal as per the spell but could also be: smashing the torc with a high DC Strength check, using the special key in the BBEG's possession, destroying the crystal that the torc draws its power from, etc.

You don't need to be constrained to player-usable magic items.

[dancrilis]

I am assuming they want the prisoner alive for some reason.

As the affect doesn't end after the 30 days unless an INT save is successful and as the INT of the prisoner will be 1 when this save is attempted it seems likely that the BBEG might not need to worry about it (unless the prisoner has a proficency in intelligence) or have any scheme to keep the affect in place - if they are so paranoid that they want to ensure it cast every 30 days then they probably don't trust lackeys to do it properly and bringing along someone feebleminded will likely be less work then running a potion factory anyway (and prevents your players acquiring said potions).

Probably best to hack the arms and legs of the enemy, put them in a box with a tube to feed them, that way they will barely take up any space and the box can be used as a footstool - this happilly deals with your BBEG's problem and acts to show the players what fate awaits their characters.

[Maelynn]

The effects of feeblemind are permanent with the target getting to repeat the save every month. I don't see how returning to cast the spell every month is any different.

That... is right. I somehow thought the spell would end after 30 days, my bad. So the only difference a recasting makes would be the initial psychic damage that is applied again. Which is unnecessary for the BBEG's plan.

You saved me the headache of finding an answer to my initial question, my thanks!


So I'll add option 4: Have the BBEG saving throw be sufficiently high so that one successful casting does the job.

That does sound solid. With an INT of 1, you get a -5 to the saving throw. That means a DC 16 is needed. A lvl 15 caster has a prof bonus of +5, meaning that he'd need no more than 16 INT to get 8 + 5 + 3 = DC 16. Seems reasonable, not even a boost necessary.


But I'll also add option 5: Create an object which accomplishes your story goal. So make something like a torc of feeblemind which, once placed around the victim's neck, subjects them to the spell. Then set up conditions for successfully removing the torc, which destroys it forever. This can be wish, greater restoration, heal as per the spell but could also be: smashing the torc with a high DC Strength check, using the special key in the BBEG's possession, destroying the crystal that the torc draws its power from, etc.

Hm, I'll admit that I hadn't yet considered the part where the party will want to mount a rescue - so far I had mostly been toying with the concept and how I could make it work. *

However, I already have a magic item placed on the being to create a permanent spell effect - equipping it with another one would feel too much like repeating a cheap trick. I could have the party enlist the help of an ally who is able to cast any of the necessary spells... or perhaps I could wait until the Wizard in the party has obtained a headband of Intellect and hope they figure out they can cancel out the spell's effects by putting it on the being. Hmm. I'll ruminate this some more. See if there's other ways for them to save the day. And the being.


I am assuming they want the prisoner alive for some reason.

Oh yes, absolutely. And dismembering is also something that wouldn't benefit the BBEG's plans. :smallyuk:

* in case you're interested, this was my concept.

the BBEG holds an adult red dragon captive by means of a Feeblemind spell. He made sure to deplete the creature's Legendary Resistance before casting this spell, and has since kept the dragon in captivity. The prison is in a hidden location, run by one of his lieutenants who oversees the harvesting of the creature. The BBEG has placed a Ring of Regeneration on one of the creature's paws, so that any harvested scales/claws/blood/bile/etc can regrow. This way, he has ensured a steady supply of valuable materials and ingredients that are usually very hard to come by. He sells them on the black market and uses this income as a means to fund his other plans.

[dancrilis]

Ok that means you might have a problem - per your spoiler you would need to wear down those resistances each month, which could be a tall order (after all feeblemind does not reduce Wisdom, so gut feeling and insight have not been impacted).
They might be unintelligent and lacking in personality - but they are still wise.

But you can perhaps hand wave this.

[Maelynn]

you would need to wear down those resistances each month

The way I understood the rules, I wouldn't need to - the creature wouldn't be able to use them while under the effect of Feeblemind.

Legendary Actions:

... it can't use them while incapacitated or otherwise unable to take actions -MM, p11

Legendary Resistance:

... fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead - MM, p98

Feeblemind:

... can't cast spells, activate magic items, understand language, or communicate in any intelligent way - PHB, p239-240

What I deducted from this, is that Legendary Resistance isn't usable by a creature that has been reduced to nothing but basic animalistic instincts - it can't 'choose to succeed', because its cognitive capabilities are too lacking to be able to make such a decision.

You could argue that a resistance isn't an action, so the description of Legendary Action doesn't fit perfectly - however, I'm mostly focusing on the incapacitated aspect. The creature would be unable to consciously choose whether or not the legendary resistance should be applied, because it lacks the intelligence to assess the dangers. From what I've managed to find, those creatures who possess Legendary Resistance have a decent INT score, which to me is also a sign that a creature with 1 INT wouldn't be able to accurately use this particular skill.

Of course, should I be wrong in my assumptions then I can easily circumvent the problem by making it a younger version instead of the adult. I just wanted a more imposing sight. ;)

[Contrast]

If you have the means to restrain an adult red dragon I'm not sure it being Feebleminded is actually all that relevant? :smallconfused:

[JackPhoenix]

You could argue that a resistance isn't an action, so the description of Legendary Action doesn't fit perfectly - however, I'm mostly focusing on the incapacitated aspect. The creature would be unable to consciously choose whether or not the legendary resistance should be applied, because it lacks the intelligence to assess the dangers. From what I've managed to find, those creatures who possess Legendary Resistance have a decent INT score, which to me is also a sign that a creature with 1 INT wouldn't be able to accurately use this particular skill.

Being incapacitated doesn't impact your capacity to do anything that doesn't require an action or reaction. Incapacitated creature is still able to move normally or talk (not if it's Feebleminded, of course, but in general). And there are no minimum intelligence requirements for Legendary Resistance.... it's "Did I fail a save? Well, I didn't". The Tarrasque has LR and Int 3. Elder elementals have Int 2.

[PhantomSoul]

Being incapacitated doesn't impact your capacity to do anything that doesn't require an action or reaction. Incapacitated creature is still able to move normally or talk (not if it's Feebleminded, of course, but in general). And there are no minimum intelligence requirements for Legendary Resistance.... it's "Did I fail a save? Well, I didn't". The Tarrasque has LR and Int 3. Elder elementals have Int 2.

Building on this, Feeblemind doesn't cause the Incapacitated Condition anyway. It might be that I've missed something in the thread (I did make sure to reread the spoilered concept), but it looks like there isn't a source of Incapacitation so far. (The DM can, of course, decide it applies at their discretion, but it might be a good idea to avoid Feeblemind causing the Incapacitated Condition if the PCs might ever get the spell; it's already incredibly potent!)

Supplement for clarity/completeness: Feeblemind limits the Actions that can be taken, but does not remove the ability to take Actions entirely.

[Adrastos42]

I imagine you could rule that a Feebleminded creature wouldn't have the wherewithal to hold onto it's uses of legendary resistance for important spells, and would burn one as soon as it fails a save. In which case, you could just throw a bunch of low-level and ideally INT-targeting spells at the dragon every 30 days until they burn through all their legendary resistance uses before the save against Feeblemind comes up.

[DwarfDM]

Another option is to use water from the river styx that works as the feeblemind spell and even the BBEG minions can use it.

[Maelynn]

there are no minimum intelligence requirements for Legendary Resistance.... it's "Did I fail a save? Well, I didn't". The Tarrasque has LR and Int 3. Elder elementals have Int 2.

Ah, yes then there's no relation to (lack of) INT and being able to consciously choose which spell effects are worth spending LR on - for me, assessing danger and calculating risks are cognitive abilities associated with intelligence, but it seems that here they're not (or I'm just trying to make too much logical sense out of a skill that's just a DM tool to use at their disposal). Thanks for pointing these out, I didn't find them with my Google attempts. I wish there were some database where you can sort/filter all monsters from all official books by specific elements, such as 'INT score' or 'pack tactics' or 'blindsight'.


I imagine you could rule that a Feebleminded creature wouldn't have the wherewithal to hold onto it's uses of legendary resistance for important spells, and would burn one as soon as it fails a save. In which case, you could just throw a bunch of low-level and ideally INT-targeting spells at the dragon every 30 days until they burn through all their legendary resistance uses before the save against Feeblemind comes up.

This was my line of reasoning as well, but if Zaratan with INT 2 can use LR then I'm afraid the point has become rather moot.

Also, this way of working around problems is interesting in and on itself, but getting too meta to my liking - a BBEG wouldn't be aware of the '3/day LR' mechanic, it'd be more like "I noticed that spells sometimes don't work on dragons when they should have". An adult dragon is too smart to reveal this ability to an enemy that can use it against him, so it'd take years of research and experimenting on various dragons to discover these weaknesses (and given the fact that only adult/ancient versions possess LR, I have my doubts about the availability of suitable test subjects :smalltongue: ). Maybe a Lich would eventually discover something like this, but my BBEG isn't one and would probably consider it a waste of time.

So, like I said I'll just circumvent the entire LR issue by using a young instead of an adult. They're still Large, so there should be plenty to harvest from.

[dancrilis]

So, like I said I'll just circumvent the entire LR issue by using a young instead of an adult.

If you did want to keep the dragon an adult - just have the feeblemind work once, and after that the dragon is bound down, muzzled, etc so it can't escape feeblemind or not.
It is basically the footrest plan but with a dragon in the box and most of the dragon available for harvesting.

[Maelynn]

If you did want to keep the dragon an adult - just have the feeblemind work once, and after that the dragon is bound down, muzzled, etc so it can't escape feeblemind or not.
It is basically the footrest plan but with a dragon in the box and most of the dragon available for harvesting.

Well, cutting off limbs would mean the Ring of Regeneration is too busy restoring those body parts - it would make regeneration of the important parts (scales, horns, etc) be too time-consuming because there's no way to direct the process to the parts that take priority. Also, I think that holding a dragon prisoner is one thing, but deliberately keeping them in a heavy mutilated and dismembered state might anger Tiamat. Do you want to risk incurring her wrath? My BBEG sure doesn't.

If I try to think like a villain (which I enjoy more than I care to admit), then it's actually far better to go for a young dragon instead of an adult. The lower CR and lack of LR makes it easier to subdue, because it can be kept in a permanent state of Feeblemind (DC 16). An adult dragon just poses too much of a risk to make it a reliable source of income. Lackeys could die - not in itself a bad thing as they're easily replaced, but it can get quite messy and the last few times I've had to pay off next of kin so there wouldn't be an investigation. Or worse, rumours.

And aside from the casualties, there's the need for huge sturdy manacles and lots of chains (you try getting those without people starting to ask questions)... and not to mention the effort of making the prison soundproof. And fireproof. And with reinforced walls that can withstand forceful wing/tail attacks. No no, too much overhead.

Another thing. The smaller size of the creature means a smaller prison suffices, which is easier to hide from the public and requires fewer lackeys to operate/guard it. Hells, I could even consider sending out lackeys (or adventurers, they're stupid enough and are easily satisfied with the promise of gold) to hunt more young dragons... perhaps even of a different type, so as not to flood the market and provide a variety in scales and bile/poison/acid. That would also up my revenue, but without increasing the risk. Oh, I like this idea. Note to self: send out lackeys to scout for signs of dragon activity.

No, the more I think about it the more I like having a young dragon chained up and Feebleminded, as opposed to an adult version. There's way too many risks involved for the increase in yield it provides, and I didn't get where I am today if I was wont to take that kind of risks.