How to make a monk that works well at higher levels?

[Rfkannen]

I have heard many times that monks have a lot of trouble at higher levels because con saves get rediculous, and stunning strike is their main power ability. Is there any monk build that works really well at higher levels? If you were to play a level 20 character that has mostly levels in monk, how would you do it?

[Dork_Forge]

I see no reason why a Monk would struggle at high level, they're not just Stunning Strike. I guess if you wanted to aim for higher levels, Sun Soul is pretty great since you get the safety of ranged attacks and radiant is a solid damage type, Kensei can make use of magic items found (a one level dip on Kensei into fighter for the style goes a long way).

Something else to consider would be a 3 level dip into Gloom Stalker, it brings you nothing but gravy and the hit to your ki pool is still within acceptable bounds.

[Deathtongue]

I have heard many times that monks have a lot of trouble at higher levels because con saves get rediculous, and stunning strike is their main power ability. Is there any monk build that works really well at higher levels? If you were to play a level 20 character that has mostly levels in monk, how would you do it?CON saves do get ridiculous, but bounded accuracy plus additional rolls brings even the gods low. For example, if you have a Stunning Fist DC of 15 at level 9 and the monster has a +9 bonus to CON (meaning they need to roll a 6 or higher to save), 58% of the time they will fail if you hit them with three Stunning Fist attacks. If you have a Stunning Fist DC of 16 and the monster has a mere +7 bonus to CON (meaning they need to roll a 9 or higher to save), 87% of the time they will fail if you hit them with four Stunning Fist attacks.

Of course, this will drain your ki points like crazy, so you need a way to have repeated short rests (the Catnap spell on a party member is mandatory) and you should pick a monk tradition that is easy on your ki points in combat and will help you land Stunning Fist. Which is why I think that Open Hand is by far and away the best choice for monks and everything else is a distance second. That is, on a tier-maker that rated monk traditions against each other Open Hand would be an S, Shadow would be a B, everything else would be C or worse.

[Man_Over_Game]

The things you gotta keep in mind with Monk is that:


Your life is kinda subpar.
Your AC COULD be subpar, if you decided to pick up feats.
Your Ki points gain more power the higher level you are (as 1 more Ki point roughly translates to ~1-3 more per day, not to mention more options as you level up).
Your damage scales exceptionally well with all of your Monk attacks, meaning you increase in versatility


As a high-level Monk, the only thing you really need to be cautious of is recognizing that you're not a Fighter. You don't have great defenses, and your Stunning Strikes are more likely to be wasted on bruisers.

In fact, you have a TON of anti-squishy defenses, whether that's improved saving throws, shedding conditions off you with an Action, high Dex/Wisdom saves, Deflect Missiles, you name it. If you're just standing there, punching the biggest guy in the room, you're doing it wrong. Unless it's the only guy in the room, in which case do it AND spam those Stunning Strikes (as even their improved Con will eventually falter if you're just pounding away with 3 saves per turn).

Put simply, you have 3 strategies:


Dive past the front line to engage their casters. They can't stop you, and the enemy bruisers don't usually move fast enough to chase you effectively. Either the enemy front line breaks formation to protect their rear, or you just pick off their back line. Anti-squishy is the best strategy for the Monk, as you have more defenses against them than anyone else. If you can get them to focus on you, that's less your party has to deal with (while they deal with things like enemy melee attacks vs. their higher AC and HP, so you don't have to).
Harass the front line with your superior ranged damage and mobility, closing into melee range only as a means of protecting your casters or supporting your other melee allies so that you all take damage evenly.
Focus the most important, biggest guy in the room with Stunning Strike. Combined with your casters, you'll quickly burn out his Legendary Saves.


There's more you should consider, depending on what kind of monk you are, but those are generally the best strategies for the monk class overall.

As far as how to make one? Take as few feats as you can, and as many Monk levels as you can. That's...about it. They're hard to build wrong as long as you don't overthink it.

[AttilatheYeon]

2 word: empty body. When you get that, you become very hard to kill. Tank west young adventurer.

[CTurbo]

I like the 5e Monk. The biggest issues are complete lack of utility and the fact that they depend on ASIs more than probably any other class. Maxing Dex and Wis is better than pretty much any feat. Even if you had room for feats, there aren't a whole of of feats that help Monks be better at Monking. Sure there are some good feats that are great on any character, but there just aren't any feats that stand out as a must have.

If I were able to make any changes, I would probably add 1 extra ASI/feat like the Rogue has, and figure out a way to increase unarmed strike to-hit bonus you know to like mimic a +1/+2/+3 magic weapon. The Blade Pact Warlock had this same issue and it was fixed with new invocations.

Even then, those are minor annoyances and don't keep the Monk from being rally capable at any level. Monks are actually a little OP at lower/mid levels with high rolled stats. I played a Wood Elf Long Death Monk and was able to start with 20 Dex and 18 Wis and bumped Wis at level 4 and took Mobile at level 8. Not only was he nearly impossible to kill, he was right up there with the Fighter for highest DPR with a +2 staff.

Monks don't multiclass as easily and effectively as most other classes, but a 1-3 level dip in any of the other Wis focused classes do add a lot as well as 2 levels of Rogue or Fighter.

[Rfkannen]

The things you gotta keep in mind with Monk is that:

[LIST]
Your life is kinda subpar.
.

Just checking, do you mean your health is going to be low or that your quality of play is going to be bad?

[ferrit]

I’m currently playing a Monk (Wood Elf, Open Hand) who multiclassed into Rogue at Level 6 instead of going for Monk 7. The difference in how the character feels to play was huge. I’m now Monk 6/Scout 4 and having a blast.

Ranged damage is sorted, with 20 DEX, Elven Accuracy and a Longbow. With expertise in athletics and stealth, getting anywhere I need to be hasn’t been a problem. I’m able to contribute quite a bit in the exploration/utility sides of sessions. DPR and effectiveness in combat, lessened by having less Ki, is offset by the addition of sneak damage. Being able to bonus action dash/disengage/hide is a huge saving on Ki resources too.

I can’t recommend a Rogue dip enough, it’s opened up the Monk so much. I’m never going to be the power hitter that the GWM Fighter is, but I’m definitely pulling my weight in literally every encounter.

[Man_Over_Game]

Just checking, do you mean your health is going to be low or that your quality of play is going to be bad?

Lol, sorry, low hp. You have less hp than a Rogue since you're spread over 3 stats while the Rogue uses 2. Which is bonkers when you consider the Rogue is better with ranged weapons while you are not.

[HPisBS]

If you want an awesomely over-the-top monk build, then this guy (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613625-5e-Throwdowns-4-Powergamer-s-Potluck/page2&p=24560731#post24560731) should do the trick. (Of course, you wouldn't get any of those feats if you use standard array, but they're really just gravy anyways.)


Honestly, though, even a straight monk build is pretty cool thanks to all the passives they get. And the archetype affects much more about how they play than most classes' do. So long as you stay away from the terribad archetypes like raw 4 Elements, you'll probably be satisfied enough at most levels.

[Arkhios]

Being able to make 3 to 4 melee attacks with each dealing 1d10 + Ability modifier on a fairly regular basis, having a decent Armor Class (almost guaranteed AC 20 before any magic items taken into account), proficiency in all saving throws, Stunning Strike, and a stunning mobility (plus many other abilities available to all monks) is hardly something I would say "doesn't work well at higher levels".

Only the fighter can compete with the amount of attacks they can do on regular basis. I'd quite honestly say Monk will fare well at higher levels, regardless of their chosen subclass.

[Lunali]

Being able to make 3 to 4 melee attacks with each dealing 1d10 + Ability modifier on a fairly regular basis, having a decent Armor Class (almost guaranteed AC 20 before any magic items taken into account), proficiency in all saving throws, Stunning Strike, and a stunning mobility (plus many other abilities available to all monks) is hardly something I would say "doesn't work well at higher levels".

Only the fighter can compete with the amount of attacks they can do on regular basis. I'd quite honestly say Monk will fare well at higher levels, regardless of their chosen subclass.

You left out greater invisibility and resistance to almost all damage.

[Arkhios]

You left out greater invisibility and resistance to almost all damage.

Empty Body was implied by "(plus many other abilities available to all monks)".

[Deathtongue]

Before you get excited about all of the cool options that monks get (including Empty Body) you need to have a sober look at your ki points and do an example budget for 3-4 rounds of combat. I feel a lot of people who defend the monk aren't doing this; I've seen it happen way too often where the DM subjects the party to a second or even third encounter between short rests and the monk's effectiveness drops like a rock. A lot of the stuff a Sun Soul or higher-level 4E monk sounds awesome on paper, but where you are getting the juice to fuel these abilities?

This isn't an insurmountable issue. Catnap is always an option. And a lot of tables will almost always allow a short rest between encounters. But there are a lot of adventure designs, such as storming a fortress or defending a piece of land from raiders or even just the DM using multiple waves of enemies, that won't let you take an hour to rest between multiple encounters. Like, imagine a monk at level 15 who uses empty body for each of the two encounters between a short rest. They now have 7 ki points to spend for two encounters. How are they spending them now?

Which is why I say that Open Palm is by far the best monk subclass. Shadow is a distant second, because it at least has options to spend ki points in non-combat or pre-combat. But generally, as soon as I see a monk subclass use ki points to unlock some awesome feature -- or like the 4E monk, just to function -- I mentally relegate it to the 'maybe if I feel like doing it for the memes' tier.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Take as few feats as you can, and as many Monk levels as you can. That's...about it.

Do you really think that even the Mobile feat isn't worthwhile? I've seen it used on an Open Hand monk, and it seemed to really improve his performance. The added speed was helpful, but more importantly the removal of the need to spend Ki and your Bonus Action on a Disengage to avoid opportunity attacks really made him an excellent kiter. He could run in, get 3 attacks on whoever he wanted, and run back out of range (admittedly, in high tier 2) all without spending a Ki point. It really improved his Ki budget. Which left him what seemed like plenty of Ki for things like Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike, or a Step of the Wind Dodge or Dash if he lacked sufficient movement to escape that turn.

This wasn't my character and I've never played a monk, so I don't know exactly what he gave up to get the feat, but it sure seemed like he became far more effective once he took it.

[HPisBS]

Do you really think that even the Mobile feat isn't worthwhile? I've seen it used on an Open Hand monk, and it seemed to really improve his performance. The added speed was helpful, but more importantly the removal of the need to spend Ki and your Bonus Action on a Disengage to avoid opportunity attacks really made him an excellent kiter. He could run in, get 3 attacks on whoever he wanted, and run back out of range (admittedly, in high tier 2) all without spending a Ki point. It really improved his Ki budget. Which left him what seemed like plenty of Ki for things like Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike, or a Step of the Wind Dodge if he lacked sufficient movement to escape that turn.

This wasn't my character and I've never played a monk, so I don't know exactly what he gave up to get the feat, but it sure seemed like he became far more effective once he took it.

One of Open Hand's lvl 3 Flurry options takes away the target's reaction, so he could do that without Mobile. He probably just didn't want to, since knocking enemies prone or pushing them back is so much more appealing.

What he gave up by doing that was +1 AC and either +1 to hit and damage on 3-4 attacks per round, or +1 to his ki save DC (to stun, prone, or push).

Either way, the cost was fairly significant.

[Deathtongue]

Do you really think that even the Mobile feat isn't worthwhile?I can't speak for Man_Over_Game, but monks should think twice about Mobile if they're worried about their party contributions. Mobile on Monks doesn't do anything to advance your party towards a victory state. It just helps YOUR character out. Wh

Mobile is by no means a bad or even mediocre feat; an Oath of Conquest Paladin or Bladesinger or someone with Polearm Master could really get some use out of that feat. It's just that typical parties that have Monks + Mobile can't really capture much value from it. You're less likely to get ganked, but so what? How does that make it any better than Resilient: CON or Tough?

[Man_Over_Game]

I can't speak for Man_Over_Game, but monks should think twice about Mobile if they're worried about their party contributions. Mobile on Monks doesn't do anything to advance your party towards a victory state. It just helps YOUR character out. Wh

Mobile is by no means a bad or even mediocre feat; an Oath of Conquest Paladin or Bladesinger or someone with Polearm Master could really get some use out of that feat. It's just that typical parties that have Monks + Mobile can't really capture much value from it. You're less likely to get ganked, but so what? How does that make it any better than Resilient: CON or Tough?

That's my viewpoint on it, too. Mobility is already circumstantially valuable in 5e, and Monks have it in spades.

Put another way, if you spend about 1/3 of your Ki points on Step of the Wind, Mobile is a good investment. Otherwise, if you can't bother losing out on 1-2 attacks for a turn for additional mobility, then spending a feat for it isn't going to be worth any more.

And to add onto Deathtongue's mentions, avoiding being attacked will usually mean more damage for someone else. Sometimes, that's a good thing, but it's not always that simple.

[J-H]

Lack of utility?

The monk (now level 12) in my Castlevania game has used his "I run up the wall" abilities for a ton of vertical mobility to get around and over obstacles with. "I run up the wall" is even better when you combine it with "And I grab the X at the top" or "And then I throw a rope down to haul everyone else up with."
I suppose it'd be a little less good outdoors, but then "I run over water" kicks in....