Bear Warrior (3.5)

[SirNibbles]

It's generally agreed that taking all 10 levels of Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior, page 16) is a bad idea: levels 6, 8, and 9 are dead levels, level 7 only gives you +1 rage/day, and the Dire Bear form at 10th only gives you +4 Str and +2 Natural Armor compared to the Brown Bear form you get at 5th. All of this is in addition to the fact that you need to spend an extra standard action after entering your rage to transform.

It does have the advantage of having the essentially free prerequisite of Power Attack.

What changes would be needed in order to make taking all the levels of Bear Warrior viable?

Should it be compressed into 5 levels? (Forms at 1/3/5, Scent at 2, and +1 rage/day at 4)
I think this would probably make the most sense, since you don't have any dead levels and two levels for +1 rage and +4 Str seems fair.

Should it be compressed into 7 levels? (Forms at 1/4/7, Scent at 3, and +1 rage/day at 6)
Three levels for +1 rage and +4 Str is pushing it a bit, but still doable.

Should it be kept at 10 levels but have new class features in the dead levels?
Just as Bear Warrior's Scent works even outside of bear form, perhaps Improved Grab could be granted to the Bear Warrior as well, and maybe a claw attack even in your normal form.

Another thing worth considering is allowing changing form as part of entering the rage, rather than requiring a separate standard action.

[Zanos]

I would completely change bear warrior into a racial progression for a werebear(no LA), since that's pretty much what it is anyway. Then just spread those features(+16 str +2 dex + 8 con +7 NA DR 10/Silver) over the levels.

[ExLibrisMortis]

For me, they key part of a Bear Warrior is that they are still living in settlements, unlike Primevals or Fists of the Forest. They're settled people who revere bear spirits and form a pact that allows the bear warrior to draw on the spirit's strength in battle (what the spirits get out of this is unclear, but presumably sacrifices of honey), but they are not bears and do not resemble them out of combat. That means were-bearness and abilities/restrictions like Primal Living or Regression aren't really suitable for bear warriors. Bear warriors do not really need a melee damage buff either (except perhaps an extra use of rage or two, since 3.5 is stupidly stingy with those), but rather some utility and interaction with their totem. My first choice would be some magic abilities using sacrifice-for-spell rituals. All sorts of ranger/druid spells having to do with bears, the forest, and spirits could be granted, with scroll gp costs as guideline. Perhaps you could add a way to use Survival more efficiently to gather sacrifices. All that fits right in with the flavour and provides a way for bear warriors to be useful when BEAR SLAM is not the answer.

As a rough draft:
-- Bear warriors "cast" spells by conducting a ritual sacrifice, which places the spell (or spells) granted as a (Su) contingency on the bear warrior (both the spell and the contingency are (Su)), variables chosen by the bear warrior as if they are the caster, as per the spell description. The ritual takes ten minutes and can be performed as often as you like, but the total amount of spells that can be granted each day is limited to two spell levels per HD.
-- A trigger chosen at the time of sacrifice activates the spell as if cast (still (Su)) by the bear spirits (a free action trigger must be used on your turn--let's plug that hole before it gets abused). The default trigger is simply a short prayer, a battle cry, or a roar (a free action on your turn). The bear spirits are a diffuse entity entirely immune to things like reciprocal gyre with a caster level equal to your HD (reflecting the strength of the spiritual connection rather than the spirits' actual CL).
-- The prepare-and-trigger method is generally how Vancian magic works anyway, but this (a) avoids giving the bear warrior CL, slots, needing Spellcraft, and so on, and (b) bypasses all casting time, components, targeting, SR, dispels, and so on. It's very powerful and very limited, so choose your spell list well--buff spells and divinations mostly--and perhaps allow only one spell per round to trigger.
-- A bear warrior can have granted spells of a total spell level equal to their HD at any one time, can have granted spells of a maximum level equal to half their bear warrior level (rounded up), and gains granted spells from a thematic list by sacrificing honey in value equal to 1/2 the gp cost of a scroll of those spells.
-- A bear warrior gains the effects of triggered spells at a higher CL during rages, because the spiritual connection is particularly strong during those times. The bonus equals half the Strength bonus in rage--and yes, triggering a spell "on rage" gets you the bonus, because it would be a stupid gotcha if it didn't. That means you're potentially getting pretty high caster levels, but that's alright for a limited list of self-buffs and divination effects you're likely burning a rage on to cast out of combat.
-- On the topic of divinations: the spirits are the caster and gain the information first, but confer it on the bear warrior as well as they can, and retain the memory--maybe use that fact to allow other bear warriors to share the same information.
-- Bear warriors can gather sacrificial honey by making a Survival check and foraging for an hour in an appropriate area. The amount of honey gathered is worth [2 + class level] gp per point their Survival check exceeds 10 (i.e. a 10th-level bear warrior gathers sacrificial honey four times faster than a first-level bear warrior with the same Survival skill). For a first-level bear warrior (ECL 8, Survival +15) the expected result is about 45 gp, enough for 90 gp worth of scrolls--three firsts and a cantrip. For a tenth-level bear warrior (ECL 17, Survival +25), it is about 300 gp, enough for 600 gp of scrolls--enough for three firsts, a second, and a third. You can forage in a given area only once a day (an area is about a square mile, so you can definitely just walk over and forage some more, if terrain permits). You can also simply buy or steal honey and sacrifice that. Bears like honey, it's fine.
-- Possession of up to ten hours' worth of gathered honey (but not honey you didn't personally gather) does not violate your Vow of Poverty, but you can't do anything with it except sacrifice it to the bear spirits.
-- You should probably be pretty relaxed about the weight of the honey. Bear warriors shouldn't have to lug around carts (or enveloping pits) of honey. Just say it's really high-quality honey or something (or the spiritual energy from gathering it is what's important, or whatnot).

That said, if you want a simple fix, the Primeval class does have some class features that could be copied over to the Bear Warrior (animal empathy, low-light vision, fast movement), and you could always copy over some more barbarian class features (DR, Uncanny Dodge), Fist of the Forest abilities (the AC bonus, in particular), or some fear-related abilities (taking Intimidating Rage or Fearsome Fury as examples). You could also copy over kensai class features or Ancestral Relic, but using bear spirit sacrifices instead (i.e. throw defeated enemy's sword into bog, get enchanted claws).

Finally, yes, definitely make the change part of starting a rage.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you check the Complete Warrior errata file, you'll find that a Bear Warrior can assume bear form whenever they enter a rage or frenzy. It does not cost them a separate action to activate.

[el minster]

I think giving it some abilities similar to a dragon shaman would fix it up.

[SirNibbles]

If you check the Complete Warrior errata file, you'll find that a Bear Warrior can assume bear form whenever they enter a rage or frenzy. It does not cost them a separate action to activate.

"Whenever a bear warrior enters a rage or frenzy, he can choose to assume bear form (similar to the polymorph spell). He must remain in bear form until the end of his rage or frenzy. When his rage or frenzy ends, the bear warrior immediately returns to his own form. The number of times a bear warrior can assume bear form is the number of times per day he enters a rage or frenzy. Ignore the conflicting limitations specified in the third, fourth, and fifth paragraphs of the bear form description. - Complete Warrior Errata

Since it is a supernatural ability with an unspecified activation time, it defaults to standard. I could definitely understand interpreting intent as changing form as part of the same (free) action with which the Bear Warrior enters his rage or frenzy, and, in fact, that probably is the intent, but it doesn't change the RAW.

"Just like spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities might have a use limit or be usable at will. A supernatural ability takes a standard action to use unless otherwise noted in the ability description." - Rules Compendium, page 119

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Still working on other replies.

[Zanos]

"Whenever a bear warrior enters a rage or frenzy, he can choose to assume bear form (similar to the polymorph spell)."

Doesn't that bit make it part of the activation of rage? You choose to turn into a bear when you enter a rage or frenzy.

[el minster]

"Whenever a bear warrior enters a rage or frenzy, he can choose to assume bear form (similar to the polymorph spell)."

Doesn't that bit make it part of the activation of rage? You choose to turn into a bear when you enter a rage or frenzy.

It is part of the action to rage.

[KillianHawkeye]

"Whenever a bear warrior enters a rage or frenzy, he can choose to assume bear form (similar to the polymorph spell)."

Doesn't that bit make it part of the activation of rage? You choose to turn into a bear when you enter a rage or frenzy.


It is part of the action to rage.

Yes, this is correct. It's just modifying how your rage/frenzy works.

[liquidformat]

If you want to keep things simple stupid just compressing it down to 5 levels and maybe exchanging the Rage +1/day to just giving them the extra rage feat does a great job of revamping the PRC without dramatically increasing power levels, also take the errata to bear form. With this change you get black bear at min level 8, brown at 10, and dire at 13 that is pretty comparable to what a druid, MoMF, or polymorphic spell are capable of at those levels. This does put you slightly above a straight barbarian in terms of power level but that isn't a bad thing.

If you are looking at flipping the PRC on its head and making it very interesting ExLib's ideas are very cool though it does make it a little hard to figure out power level.

[SirNibbles]

If you want to keep things simple stupid just compressing it down to 5 levels and maybe exchanging the Rage +1/day to just giving them the extra rage feat does a great job of revamping the PRC without dramatically increasing power levels, also take the errata to bear form. With this change you get black bear at min level 8, brown at 10, and dire at 13 that is pretty comparable to what a druid, MoMF, or polymorphic spell are capable of at those levels. This does put you slightly above a straight barbarian in terms of power level but that isn't a bad thing.

If you are looking at flipping the PRC on its head and making it very interesting ExLib's ideas are very cool though it does make it a little hard to figure out power level.

I prefer stupid simple changes because it means any DM can easily adapt those changes into their game. I even made a thread about it. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?538218-One-Sentence-Fixes-(3-5)) (Warning: old thread, don't necro).

Like you said, in terms of power you're close to other shapeshifting abilities when you both use bear forms, but you don't have as much variety as they do which is perfectly fine.

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To cut a long story short, I like the effort behind ExLib's honey ritual but I think it makes things needlessly complicated. I admit, a class that doesn't get magical abilities to solve problems that don't involve smacking an enemy hard is an issue, but I don't think the solutions posted are the right way to give Bear Warrior those problem-solving abilities; Bear Warrior's Scent is actually a great example of how a single ability can yield a lot of utility, from locating nearby enemies to tracking targets by smell. (It might be nice to grant the Track feat for free at 4th level, or perhaps a choice of Track or Endurance). Expanding further on bear-like abilities/feats rather than giving them spells by any other name feels like a more elegant solution.

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And I guess most people are reading the errata as saying 'as part of your Rage (free) action, you can also become a bear' so that problem solves itself.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Expanding further on bear-like abilities/feats rather than giving them spells by any other name feels like a more elegant solution.
The problem is that bear warriors already have all the abilities of a bear, except low-light vision and Track (and Swim speed, if we consider polar bears), which aren't particularly bear-specific abilities. There's simply nothing bear-themed you can give them to make them better in the areas where they need improvement.

[liquidformat]

I prefer stupid simple changes because it means any DM can easily adapt those changes into their game. I even made a thread about it. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?538218-One-Sentence-Fixes-(3-5)) (Warning: old thread, don't necro).

Like you said, in terms of power you're close to other shapeshifting abilities when you both use bear forms, but you don't have as much variety as they do which is perfectly fine.

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To cut a long story short, I like the effort behind ExLib's honey ritual but I think it makes things needlessly complicated. I admit, a class that doesn't get magical abilities to solve problems that don't involve smacking an enemy hard is an issue, but I don't think the solutions posted are the right way to give Bear Warrior those problem-solving abilities; Bear Warrior's Scent is actually a great example of how a single ability can yield a lot of utility, from locating nearby enemies to tracking targets by smell. (It might be nice to grant the Track feat for free at 4th level, or perhaps a choice of Track or Endurance). Expanding further on bear-like abilities/feats rather than giving them spells by any other name feels like a more elegant solution.

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And I guess most people are reading the errata as saying 'as part of your Rage (free) action, you can also become a bear' so that problem solves itself.

Yeah for similar logic I made trapkiller a permanent additional class feature to barbarians, it does not break the game but it does boost them a decent bit higher in usability outside of smashing face, or similarly have my Fighters choose their own list of 7 skills with a few exceptions like spell craft.


The problem is that bear warriors already have all the abilities of a bear, except low-light vision and Track (and Swim speed, if we consider polar bears), which aren't particularly bear-specific abilities. There's simply nothing bear-themed you can give them to make them better in the areas where they need improvement.

Well you could always doubling the range of their scent ability at 4th or 5th level, Bears are well known for their sense of smell after all.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well you could always doubling the range of their scent ability at 4th or 5th level, Bears are well known for their sense of smell after all.
I mean, sure, but so are dogs and sharks and pigs, and besides... is that really the epic ability you were after when you became a bear warrior? You'd struggle to provide enough scent range to cover the effect of a single commune spell that allows a bear warrior to consult the bear spirits.

Anyway, if you're going that way, just take Zanos' advice and use the were-bear template class instead. Can't get more beary than that.

[SirNibbles]

I mean, sure, but so are dogs and sharks and pigs, and besides... is that really the epic ability you were after when you became a bear warrior? You'd struggle to provide enough scent range to cover the effect of a single commune spell that allows a bear warrior to consult the bear spirits.

Anyway, if you're going that way, just take Zanos' advice and use the were-bear template class instead. Can't get more beary than that.

Just because an aspect of bears isn't unique to bears doesn't mean it's not bear-like. It's the combination of bear abilities that makes it bear-y. Scent was just an example of how a simple ability can provide out-of-combat utility.

Perhaps the biggest advantage of simply compressing the levels is that it gives you the option to take classes that can solve those problems with existing magic systems.

[liquidformat]

I mean, sure, but so are dogs and sharks and pigs, and besides... is that really the epic ability you were after when you became a bear warrior? You'd struggle to provide enough scent range to cover the effect of a single commune spell that allows a bear warrior to consult the bear spirits.

Anyway, if you're going that way, just take Zanos' advice and use the were-bear template class instead. Can't get more beary than that.

Sharks do get Keen Scent... Also Bear's sense of smell is estimated to be 100 times more powerful than a dog's and while it is commonly believed that a pig's sense of smell is better than a dog's it isn't dramatically better. Compared to a human a dog's sense of smell is estimated to be 10 times that of a human's. So from that giving a bear heightened or keen scent wouldn't be unreasonable. There have been studies done showing a bear can smell peanut butter from over a mile away that is a similar range compared to shark's ability to smell/sense blood in water. Bears are opportunist predators who focus more on scavenging and foraging than they do at hunting because of that their most powerful sense is smell.

[Vizzerdrix]

I would toss Ironclad mauler into the progression at the end. It never gets any love from bear builds :(

[ExLibrisMortis]

Perhaps the biggest advantage of simply compressing the levels is that it gives you the option to take classes that can solve those problems with existing magic systems.
Compressing the levels works, sure--you don't need to make up more abilities if you only have five levels. But it's still worth keeping in mind that no simple fix will fix a mundane PrC with a single +numbers feature. It's a pretty common idea ("One Weird Trick By Forumite Solves Balance Issues You Didn't Know About"), but simple fixes don't actually work all that well.


Sharks do get Keen Scent... Also Bear's sense of smell is estimated to be 100 times more powerful than a dog's and while it is commonly believed that a pig's sense of smell is better than a dog's it isn't dramatically better. Compared to a human a dog's sense of smell is estimated to be 10 times that of a human's. So from that giving a bear heightened or keen scent wouldn't be unreasonable. There have been studies done showing a bear can smell peanut butter from over a mile away that is a similar range compared to shark's ability to smell/sense blood in water. Bears are opportunist predators who focus more on scavenging and foraging than they do at hunting because of that their most powerful sense is smell.
Yes, yes, I read the wiki page too, and it's a factor ten thousand between dogs and humans (more for scent-hounds). However, that is besides the point. What matters here is two things: the perception of "keen scent" belonging to the bear in a spiritual sense (since we're dealing with bear-worshipers), and the ability for Keen Scent to improve the bear warrior class.

Regarding the first point: as far as I know, bears are revered for their size and strength--that certainly seems to be the main thing bear warriors are after--and their motherly instinct. Bears are not worshipped for their ability to smell peanut butter from a mile away. As such, there's not much of a thematic reason to or impact from adding Keen Scent. That doesn't mean you shouldn't, but it's hardly going to strengthen the idea of a mighty bear warrior.

Now, for the second point: bears aren't revered for their keen noses, but they do have them, so we grant the ability anyway. Does that "fix" the bear warrior? The answer is clear: no, it doesn't. It doesn't even make any of the dead levels "good"--it's not powerful enough. It's a solution looking for a problem.

Another way of arriving at the same conclusion is through the D&D meta. In D&D, bears are beatsticks, and--as I mentioned above and in previous posts--bear warriors are largely defined by a single +numbers ability, which gives them most of the characteristics of a bear (strength, size, speed, armour, reach, hug). Since we know that beatsticks rarely struggle with beatstickery--more specifically, we know that bear warriors do not--we can safely assume that adding more of the bear's typical abilities (more beatstickery) isn't going to make the bear warrior a much better class. (Incidentally, the same argument mostly explains why more of the one non-beatstick ability bear warriors get--Scent--won't help either. It's usually not the range of Scent that's the problem (or the Survival bonus), but the inherent inaccuracy of the ability--Scent can only indicate specific squares, so you're suffering 50% miss chance. Neither a greater range nor a bigger bonus helps with that.) In D&D, bears aren't represented by many interesting abilities, but by brute strength, so we shouldn't turn to bears for inspiration when we look for interesting abilities for a class that has brute strength in spades.


All that underlines my original point: if you want to improve the bear warrior, don't look for bear-themed abilities. Instead, look to the spiritual side, which is very much underrepresented mechanically.