Legends of Runeterra Crossover Content

[jaappleton]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/lrdtob/heroes-and-scoundrels-of-bilgewater#BarbarianPathoftheDepths

James J Haeck has contributed to a number of official books, and was co-lead on the Wildemount book. And he led the design on this.

These are.... Oh boy.

A Barbarian that can teleport 60ft at will. A gunslinger Fighter with Advantage on all attacks as a bonus action unlimited times.... Wow.

This is NOT official content. This is what D&D Beyond refers to as “Partner Content”. It’s not official, it’s not UA, but they want this content on their site.

It was certainly worked on by someone that’s designed for WOTC before. >_>

[SociopathFriend]

So Nautilus, Graves, and Twisted Fate from League of Legends.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Deadman's Plate has a bonus action shove that uses the same wording as Shield Master.

Fun. It also doesn't require attunement.

The Wild Card dragonchess stuff kind of reminds me of that scrapped Warlord set of tactics that Mearls was working on before he stepped away from the DND team.

[bendking]

A gunslinger Fighter with Advantage on all attacks as a bonus action unlimited times.... Wow.


Huh? I didn't read anything like it.
Overall the sub-classes seem really interesting, a bit on the powerful side but I don't know that they're best in class.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I kind of like it.
The subclass can help our weaker players feel stronger.

Also, the telephone cost the barbarian an action and it do little amount of damage.

[eunwoler]

It's some nice and flavorful content.

I do like how these subclasses are coming in with sub subclasses.

The chess feature is odd for a luck based Rogue character but I understand its modelled off of LoL characters. Twist of Fate is dope and I like the Die and Wildcard features as it feeds into the lucky/gambling theme but on the other hand the capstone is a weird choice, feels more like it'd be part of that Phantom UA Rogue and it's stepping on its ghostly incorporeal toes.

That Renegade subclass is so awesome, I really like how they implemented it. Gunblades are some of the coolest fighting fantasies out there. Might annoy some people though that unlike Mercer's Gunslinger, guns are built into the subclass rather than a subclass built around guns.

Lately the fighter content has been on fire. Rune Knight, flavorful and customisable subclass with meaningful choices. Echo Knight offers some versatile uses of the Echo. This one is the swashbuckling and more creative Gunslinger that people will really enjoy.

It seems pretty damn overpowered though at first glance.

The Barbarian is too cool. The primary feature is some strong anti-range anti-mobility and cool flavor. Then the 6th level feature lets you sacrifice 1 attack to teleport making this the premium mobility subclass for any Barbarian. Nice that the 10th level feature has some broad applications. Furthermore a 6th level spell recharging on a short rest for a 10th level martial? That's extremely strong. On the other hand the subclass has literally no additional offensive options until 14th level when your teleport finally starts dealing damage, and you're still giving up your attack. A very interesting subclass probably the least broken of the 3.

Honestly IMO great release but too strong excluding the Barbarian



Clarification though - the 15th level Fighter feature makes things unclear.. just how many upgrades of each kind can you have active at once?

[nickl_2000]

The character art looks like it is from Monkey Island (at least in the subclass section)

[KorvinStarmast]

It could use about three more scrubs. But since I loved playing Gangplank and Miss Fortune in LoL, I have a hard time not loving this.

[jaappleton]

Huh? I didn't read anything like it.
Overall the sub-classes seem really interesting, a bit on the powerful side but I don't know that they're best in class.

It’s one of the Weapon upgrades the Fighter subclass can get. Use a bonus action and don’t move for Advantage on all attacks.

[Appleheart]

It’s one of the Weapon upgrades the Fighter subclass can get. Use a bonus action and don’t move for Advantage on all attacks.

I think the whole design of the gunslinger is very awkward.

You are a gunslinger, but you don't have proficiency with guns. Your attacks are not using the attack action, but rather a specific Ranged Attack class ability. The attacks do not care about or scale by magic items, etc. Regardless of the power level of the subclass, this just feels like an awkward way to design the subclass, imo. It also means that the Pistoleer style, which can get a melee option, can't be used for Attacks of Opportunity, technically speaking.

The Sniper also does feel rather powerful. I've not done the full math, but the fact that they can fire twice per turn for 2d10+dex at level 5 seems really high, even before the Advantage. Add on Archery fighting style and Sharpshooter, and you'll do an average DPR of 50 at level 5 (not accounting for accuracy, but with only -2 to hit).

Two attacks for effectively 4d10+15 each at level 11 is also a bit crazy, or it feels it at least. Scaling it is weird tho, since as said magic items can't affect it, and you can't use Haste to get extra attacks, etc.

Edit - That is also before adding in Trial by Fire, which would boost it further...

[jaappleton]

I think the whole design of the gunslinger is very awkward.

You are a gunslinger, but you don't have proficiency with guns. Your attacks are not using the attack action, but rather a specific Ranged Attack class ability. The attacks do not care about or scale by magic items, etc. Regardless of the power level of the subclass, this just feels like an awkward way to design the subclass, imo. It also means that the Pistoleer style, which can get a melee option, can't be used for Attacks of Opportunity, technically speaking.

The Sniper also does feel rather powerful. I've not done the full math, but the fact that they can fire twice per turn for 2d10+dex at level 5 seems really high, even before the Advantage. Add on Archery fighting style and Sharpshooter, and you'll do an average DPR of 50 at level 5 (not accounting for accuracy, but with only -2 to hit).

Two attacks for effectively 4d10+15 each at level 11 is also a bit crazy, or it feels it at least. Scaling it is weird tho, since as said magic items can't affect it, and you can't use Haste to get extra attacks, etc.

Edit - That is also before adding in Trial by Fire, which would boost it further...

Add in the combo of Elven Accuracy with essentially at-will Advantage...

[ScoutTrooper]

Ha, seeing LoL source material at first, I was a little hesitant, but seeing as I've been building for a Swashbuckler type West Marches, these are almost perfect subclasses. I might Tarantino this. The level 6 Barb Teleport looks hella overpowered.

The big challenge has been firearms, how to integrate it, balance them and open them up to subclasses. With doing real world research on how firearms were introduced and there was that brief period of time of knights still wearing armor and suddenly dudes with small projectile firearms. However taking from the golden age of sailing and Full Plate mail was a thing of the past. It's a journey, that I thought ship stats and ship combat was going to be the hardest.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I kind of like it.
The subclass can help our weaker players feel stronger.

Also, the telephone cost the barbarian an action and it do little amount of damage.

The teleport that the Barbarian subclass gets gives them an attack as part of that teleport. It's comparable to the 15th level EK feature, except this 6th level Barbarian can teleport every turn while the EK only teleports once per rest.

[eunwoler]

The teleport that the Barbarian subclass gets gives them an attack as part of that teleport. It's comparable to the 15th level EK feature, except this 6th level Barbarian can teleport every turn while the EK only teleports once per rest.

That's a false equivalence. Why?

The EK is free add on effect it has no opportunity cost to use it.
The teleport costs an attack, for Barbarian and especially for this subclass it's 50 of your DPS gone to use it. This is magnified by the subclass having 0 additional offensive options until level 14.
At level 17 the EK obtains its ability twice per rest.

[Akal Saris]

It's really annoying that both Crosshairs (advantage as a bonus action) and double barrel (2nd attack for a sniper) both require Lvl 5 minimum, so you can't get both of them as a sniper. I'd gladly trade in the major upgrade for another minor...

[eunwoler]

It's really annoying that both Crosshairs (advantage as a bonus action) and double barrel (2nd attack for a sniper) both require Lvl 5 minimum, so you can't get both of them as a sniper. I'd gladly trade in the major upgrade for another minor...

It feels like a trap to take anything other than Double Barrel. Is it not just straight up double DPR?

[jaappleton]

It feels like a trap to take anything other than Double Barrel. Is it not just straight up double DPR?

Crosshairs is spectacular. And it’s not specific to either path.

But after Crosshairs, it’s Double Barrel for Snipers.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That's a false equivalence. Why?

The EK is free add on effect it has no opportunity cost to use it.
The teleport costs an attack, for Barbarian and especially for this subclass it's 50 of your DPS gone to use it. This is magnified by the subclass having 0 additional offensive options until level 14.
At level 17 the EK obtains its ability twice per rest.

No, the EK Teleport costs your Action Surge, a once per short rest ability (twice at 17, sure, but it's worth noting how late an ability that is). At level 14, notably still before the EK can teleport at all, you gain an AoE option that is only dealing a bit less damage on average than your second weapon attack would.

The Barbarian will not always have to teleport, but will always have the option to do so.

The Barbarian gets a very strong mobility option very early into leveling. Barbarian's have never been fantastic for their DPR but I'd be willing to bet a great many of them would be more than willing to trade one of their attacks to have an opportunity to not be kited all day long.

All of the tools this subclass gets actually make a very strong and sticky Barbarian. An even better bonus is that, while raging, Dredge Line can be used to grapple someone with both hands still free if you take Arms of the Deep at level 10. The wording for Arm's of the Deep is actually very open (I might even say in a bad way) where when you use Dredge Line you get to grapple with "each" appendage, meaning you can grapple two creatures. It doesn't even say "instead of" the usual Dredge Line ability, so you're still attempting a pull on top of the grapple. I could even seen an argument (although it's unclear) that the range of this grapple is also 15ft, since it's tied to the Dredge Line ability.

Very strong grappler class, good controlling Barbarian.

[bendking]

Crosshairs is spectacular. And it’s not specific to either path.

But after Crosshairs, it’s Double Barrel for Snipers.

I'm pretty sure Double Barrel is mathematically superior to Crosshairs. It's definitely an auto-pick.

[jaappleton]

I'm pretty sure Double Barrel is mathematically superior to Crosshairs. It's definitely an auto-pick.

Tell me the math when you're combining it with Elven Accuracy, though :smalltongue:

[SociopathFriend]

All of the tools this subclass gets actually make a very strong and sticky Barbarian. An even better bonus is that, while raging, Dredge Line can be used to grapple someone with both hands still free if you take Arms of the Deep at level 10. The wording for Arm's of the Deep is actually very open (I might even say in a bad way) where when you use Dredge Line you get to grapple with "each" appendage, meaning you can grapple two creatures. It doesn't even say "instead of" the usual Dredge Line ability, so you're still attempting a pull on top of the grapple. I could even seen an argument (although it's unclear) that the range of this grapple is also 15ft, since it's tied to the Dredge Line ability.

Very strong grappler class, good controlling Barbarian.

For the record as a League player I think this is likely the intent of the ability given it's blatantly alluding to Nautilus and Pyke, both of whom have "Hooks" in their kits as well as other Crowd Control so you can easily slow/root/stun someone and THEN pull them with the 'hook' ability.

Grappling to reduce their movement to 0 and then pulling them where you want so they cannot bother anyone else is basically Nautilus 101 and fully half those abilities share the name of his abilities in-game.

Nautilus is actually one of my favorite League champions so I'm admittedly ecstatic about this.

[T.G. Oskar]

To be honest, I saw and read a bit of the subclasses, and from what I saw, I only have middling interest in Renegade (it's good, I reckon, but nothing that really attracts me) and I couldn't care about Wild Card.

But Path of the Depths? I suddenly want to play a Barbarian now. Honest.

It really seems super fun. First, the "Scorpion Spear" effect you get while Raging, costing you only a bonus action to execute - it's an amazing tool you can give to a class that excels on tanking, since it keeps most enemies close. Sure, it has a Strength save, but to be honest, it's mostly meant on the people that'll most likely have low STR saves anyways. Then, the teleport option: true, it costs you Extra Attack, but for the most part it's an extremely flexible tool. You can use it to escape if you're surrounded (true, that's what a Barbarian is meant to do, but it lets you play a smart Barbarian), move to a larger group and just wreak havoc, or simply reach the opponent you want. Coupled with the 14th level ability that lets you issue a minor AoE, it feels like you're building up to something. The multi-selector feels interesting, even if most of the features are 1/short or long rest - that said, True Seeing is a powerful buff that doesn't seem to fit, but it's not something I'd call broken*.

In between the allegory and the mechanical features, it feels like a completely different way to play a Barbarian, something I really like. I mostly considered, oddly enough, playing Ancestral Guardian or Storm Herald, but I wouldn't mind playing a Depths Barbarian in the near future - as I said, I'm super-excited by the idea.

*: Alright, let me get this clear. Yes, Truesight is many kinds of broken, since it pretty much invalidates all illusions and transmutations - it's a pain when used by NPCs, and an anti-frustration measure when PCs use it. However, I don't see it as broken on a Barbarian because it's giving them a nice thing - you know, "give martials nice things"? And the whole Depths Barbarian is just so chock-full of goodies that I really feel Truesight for 1 hour/short rest won't shatter the game in the same way as giving the same to, say, a Wizard or Sorcerer who has far more tools to their disposal to exploit that. I mean - if the whole thing is that the God Wizard will rely on the Barbarian to be the spotter, then it's immense progress - the Barbarian has yet another thing to be useful with. (And, with proficiency in Perception, this makes them a superb spotter.)

And, with so many good 6th level spells...why spend your one or two slots on True Seeing when you could probably have a cheaper or easier way to access it?

[Dork_Forge]

No, the EK Teleport costs your Action Surge, a once per short rest ability (twice at 17, sure, but it's worth noting how late an ability that is). At level 14, notably still before the EK can teleport at all, you gain an AoE option that is only dealing a bit less damage on average than your second weapon attack would.


It doesn't cost your action surge, it enhances it by giving you the option to teleport for free when you surge. If all you wanted to do was teleport then it's not a good choice, but at that level if you want to just teleport you'd be better off just using Misty Step.

[Akal Saris]

Somebody on reddit pointed out to me that at level 15 the renegade can shuffle his abilities daily, so from 15 onwards a sniper could have both crosshairs and double barrel :)

The damage scales really well in late-game too!

At level 15:
Baseline: 4d10
Dex: 5
Sharpshooter: 10
Trial by fire: 7
Total: 4d10+22
2 attacks: 8d10+44
Action surge: 16d10+88, or ~176 damage if all 4 attacks hit.

At level 20, on an action surge (2/short rest at 20): 24d10+100, or ~232 damage if all 4 attacks hit.

In rounds where you're not using 'trial by fire + action surge', crosshairs and elven accuracy together will really boost the likelihood of crits. It looks like it would be a really simple and high damage fighter class, along with some useful charisma skills to boot.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It doesn't cost your action surge, it enhances it by giving you the option to teleport for free when you surge. If all you wanted to do was teleport then it's not a good choice, but at that level if you want to just teleport you'd be better off just using Misty Step.
You are not teleporting for free as an EK, ever. You are spending a resource to teleport. It's not "free" when you can only do it once per rest. It enhances your Action Surge, yes, but it's not "free", afterall you've just Action Surged.

Misty Step being a better choice is technically true, however even at this level (15+) it only ups the EK's amount of teleports to 4 (up to 9 if they're 19th level and willing to spend all of their higher level slots on it).

The Barbarian has the option of spending little to nothing, as this teleport costs them only one of their attacks in combat and can also be used out of combat where it has absolutely no cost whatsoever, other than an action.

Regardless, when I was comparing it to the EK's Arcane Charge, my point was in comparing design rather than relative strengths. Any class gaining the ability to teleport as an action and still make a weapon attack is something I would consider insanely good when you're getting it as early as 6th level. Horizon Walker Ranger's are a better comparison, their level 11 feature gives them an unlimited use 10ft teleport but it requires for them to take the attack action, teleporting up to 3 times if they strike 3 different targets. Much better than the Barbarian's but not as usable outside of combat still.

[Dork_Forge]

You are not teleporting for free as an EK, ever. You are spending a resource to teleport. It's not "free" when you can only do it once per rest. It enhances your Action Surge, yes, but it's not "free", afterall you've just Action Surged.

Misty Step being a better choice is technically true, however even at this level (15+) it only ups the EK's amount of teleports to 4 (up to 9 if they're 19th level and willing to spend all of their higher level slots on it).

The Barbarian has the option of spending little to nothing, as this teleport costs them only one of their attacks in combat and can also be used out of combat where it has absolutely no cost whatsoever, other than an action.

Regardless, when I was comparing it to the EK's Arcane Charge, my point was in comparing design rather than relative strengths. Any class gaining the ability to teleport as an action and still make a weapon attack is something I would consider insanely good when you're getting it as early as 6th level. Horizon Walker Ranger's are a better comparison, their level 11 feature gives them an unlimited use 10ft teleport but it requires for them to take the attack action, teleporting up to 3 times if they strike 3 different targets. Much better than the Barbarian's but not as usable outside of combat still.

I don't think I can change your mind on this, it's a difference in perspective:

Can you just teleport an unlimited number of times without any resource expediture? Well no, but the point I and the other poster was making is that nobody (well probably very little to nobody) is using Action Surge so that they can then teleport. They're using Action Surge because they've used it every short rest since they were second level and now they can teleport too. The free aspect is that it's attached to a thing they were already doing, without increasing the cost or action economy of said thing.

On the Barbarian (to preface, I've only briefly looked these options over, I'm not interested in third party content for the most part since I won't get to use it most likely), I didn't realise that ability wasn't dependent on being in rage. That is far too powerful and wouldn't see the light of day at my table unless the rage restriction was added on. It's cool flavour, but of all people to get unlimited teleporting... the Barbarian? At level 6? There's no abilities like it even close to that level (Dreams Druid get's a dedicated teleport ability, but that's 10th level and restricted to Wis Mod), I'm not really sure what would drive that as an intentional design decision.

[ProsecutorGodot]

On the Barbarian (to preface, I've only briefly looked these options over, I'm not interested in third party content for the most part since I won't get to use it most likely), I didn't realise that ability wasn't dependent on being in rage. That is far too powerful and wouldn't see the light of day at my table unless the rage restriction was added on. It's cool flavour, but of all people to get unlimited teleporting... the Barbarian? At level 6? There's no abilities like it even close to that level (Dreams Druid get's a dedicated teleport ability, but that's 10th level and restricted to Wis Mod), I'm not really sure what would drive that as an intentional design decision.

That's the only reason I was making the comparison to begin with, it's nearly no cost for the Barbarian and unlimited use, it's an insane ability that compares favorably to other high level abilities that let martials teleport. The biggest issue is that it goes a long way in eliminating one of Barbarian's core weakness, being kited.

I really need to just stop making comparisons because it always tends to end with the comparison being nitpicked as bad instead of understanding the point behind making it. The ability is insanely strong, it should have been a higher level feature to even begin looking fair.

[micahaphone]

I see why some people are nervous about the dps possible with the new fighter subclass, but if someone wanted to play a gunslinger at my table, I think I might prefer this version over Matt Mercer's gunslinger. Making it into effectively a cantrip that you modify like a warlock seems a lot easier than doing ammo, reloads, and misfires.

I love that the new rogue lets you spec into dodge tank or support or gambit card caster. good theme for a rogue too.

I haven't played League of Legends but I love giving a barbarian a hook pull. Very on theme for a barb and fun to play with.


EDIT: after a second look, I agree the level 6 barb teleport is OP. Should be con mod / LR or rage bonus damage # / SR or some other limiter.

[jaappleton]

I see why some people are nervous about the dps possible with the new fighter subclass, but if someone wanted to play a gunslinger at my table, I think I might prefer this version over Matt Mercer's gunslinger. Making it into effectively a cantrip that you modify like a warlock seems a lot easier than doing ammo, reloads, and misfires.

I love that the new rogue lets you spec into dodge tank or support or gambit card caster. good theme for a rogue too.

I haven't played League of Legends but I love giving a barbarian a hook pull. Very on theme for a barb and fun to play with.


EDIT: after a second look, I agree the level 6 barb teleport is OP. Should be con mod / LR or rage bonus damage # / SR or some other limiter.

Agreed on pretty much all of this. I just wish the Rogue got a cantrip style attack with their cards that could use more regularly, like the old Revived Rogue got Bolts From The Grave. Its the characters whole schtick, don't limit it to only being an occasional ability.

[werescythe]

Admittedly, I wasn't sure I would like these subclasses (normally I play a mage), however I will confess that the Barbarian scratches that kraken feel I have always wanted to play and the Wildcard reminds me of this fighter subclass idea I had that was built around lore and such.

[Amechra]

The weird thing to me is how much better the Sniper is than the Pistoleer. While they don't have competition with Crosshairs at 5th level, it clashes heavily with Blade and Black Powder.

[SociopathFriend]

Yeah at-will teleport seems a bit much though I wonder- is it supposed to compensate for how your initial feature makes you no more tanky nor does it deal anymore damage?

Either way I can see slapping some resource-limit on it like once per Rage or something.

[Doomeye56]

Somebody on reddit pointed out to me that at level 15 the renegade can shuffle his abilities daily, so from 15 onwards a sniper could have both crosshairs and double barrel :)

The damage scales really well in late-game too!

At level 15:
Baseline: 4d10
Dex: 5
Sharpshooter: 10
Trial by fire: 7
Total: 4d10+22
2 attacks: 8d10+44
Action surge: 16d10+88, or ~176 damage if all 4 attacks hit.

At level 20, on an action surge (2/short rest at 20): 24d10+100, or ~232 damage if all 4 attacks hit.

In rounds where you're not using 'trial by fire + action surge', crosshairs and elven accuracy together will really boost the likelihood of crits. It looks like it would be a really simple and high damage fighter class, along with some useful charisma skills to boot.

Do you get sharpshooter extra damage though? That requires to make an attack with a weapon you are proficient with. THe Renege isnt making a weapon attack. Its doing a special attack action thats it is applying its prof to.

[Akal Saris]

The ability is worded very clumsily (since when is anyone proficient in an ability?), but I think that most tables would expect the two to work together, since the intent is clearly that you're using a weapon that you've made and are proficient in, and Sharpshooter is also the most thematic possible feat that a sniper could take. I personally would allow it at my table, but it's something to discuss with your DM if you're not sure.