What subclasses are 'missing' from the game at the moment?

[eunwoler]

Ones that haven't been yet implemented by WOTC.

It could be thematic unoccupied space, e.g. a type of sorcerer origin you think is not adequately described by anything currently in.
Or a role missing. Perhaps a supportive role for a particular class is missing? A healer or skirmisher, or ranged choice? A 1/3rd divine caster?


These are some I think are missing


For me, there are a few big ones. Forgive my martial bias

The Warlord class
Warlord is something that is touched upon by the Purple Dragon Knight, Mastermind, Battlemaster but not nearly adequately. The Warlord is so broad it really can IMO be a class on its own. The Lazylord that sits back and hands out free actions, a Tactitian who creates opportunities on the fly, Chieftain who yells and empowers through fighting, Strategist who has broader abilities, Leader who inspires through presence and character alone.. this is a big one for me.


The Sawbones Rogue Archetype
I also think a back alley surgeon or 'Sawbones' subclass is missing for Rogues. Alot of homebrews I have seen have glanced off of at least some variant of this idea. Not only is it supportive, it often has some take on 'debilitating strike' of old flavored off of anatomical knowledge. It's both a buffing and debuffing archetype because of the breadth of medical fluff that is attached to an unlawful and unconventional 'rogueish' doctor. That it also can satisfy the martial healbot itch is a great plus.

Fictional characters that key off of this include the Medic from Team Fortress 2, Warhammer 40k's Mad Dok, Shadowrun's Backalley Doctor, Doctor Zed from Borderlands,.


The Gambler Rogue Archetype
One big aspect of the Rogue that I think is underexplored is the association with probability. Stroke of Luck is a pretty clear nod to some level of probability mastery. I think the archetype that pairs with this best is the 'gambler' archetype. This could apply to characters that have innate probability manipulation, are insightful enough to make their own luck, that were blessed by some external source to be lucky, have a pre written destiny, or have simply managed to chance out. There's also thematic space of card, dice association, and a metagaming element due to the tabletop RPG setting.

Fictional characters that key off of this include Joker from DC, Faraday from the Magnificent Seven, Domino, Chance and Gambit from Marvel, D'arby brothers from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Matrim Cauthon from The Wheel of Time, Hiruma from Eyeshield 21, Le Chiffre from Casino Royale.

The Field Medic/Combat Medic/Corpsman Martial Archetype

The equivalent Fighter to the Sawbones Rogue. What differentiates their flavor for me? A supportive Fighter is not about having great medical abilities or anatomical skill. The Fighter archetype here represented is more of a rescuer who runs in, protects and evacuates allies who are in need. Think the fictional character who dives in the middle of the warzone for a wounded ally, throws them on his/her back in a fireman's carry and runs off to safety. Or jumps on the grenade to take the brunt of the force. They may attend to superficial wounds but are not as well versed as dedicated healers. Perhaps this medic inspires and heals more symbolically, just by the appearance of the red cross. But by physical ability this subclass brings safety, not through magic or overzealous medical practice.

Fictional (and non-fictional) characters that key off of this include Desmond Doss from Hacksaw Ridge, Relena from Gundam, Apothecaries from Warhammer 40k, Forrest Gump, Captain America and Iron Man especially in the MCU, Survey Corps from Attack on Titan, Baymax from Big Hero 6 (the movie variant).


The Super Mode Monastic Tradition

Super Saiyan. The characters that have this ability are definitely modelled (much of the time) to an extent by Sun Soul but it does not mechanically stratch the full itch of actually transforming, and it does not mechanically glue for a monk to go Rage either. It's also something that seems fictionally most popular with unarmed fighters, especially martial artists, hence the need for it to be a monk subclass. A monastic tradition that is centred around and built off of a 'super mode' that actively empowers and changes the nature of your other abilities, ki and otherwise, would be much great fun and fulfill that fantasy best. Note that characters in this archetype are basically intended to obtain their functionally primarily from their transformation; it is the chassis, rather than it being the additive bonus. So characters like Sonic the Hedgehog or Superman do not apply.

Fictional characters that key off of this include Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan, Goten, Piccolo, Master Roshi, Freeza, Cell, Buu... basically any named character from Dragonball, Captain Marvel/Shazam from DC, Akuma from Street Fighter, Izuku Midoriya and All Might from Boku no Hero Academia.






What other subclasses do you guys think are missing from the game? What design space do they fulfil or add?

Any unmentioned suggestion in this thread I will add here. If you have any alternate name suggestions please put them up also so I can add them to the subclass list also:

Artificer
Bombsmith/Grenadier
Trapsmith
Gunsmith/Gunslinger
Barbarian
Brawler/Boxer
Heavy Armor
Rage Mage
Mounted Barbarian
Warchief
Intimidation/Fear Barbarian
Bard
Luck/Gambler
Dance
Cleric
Darkness Cleric
Water/Aquatic Cleric
Druid
Plant/Floral
Warden/Martial Druid
Fighter
Brawler/Boxer/Martial Artist
Field Medic/Corpsman
Marshal/Warlord
Gladiator/Duelist
Armored Fighter/Armiger
Monk
Super Mode
Grappler/Wrestler
Sacred Fist
Paladin
Arcane Paladin
Ranger
Urban Ranger/Vigilante
Tank
Rogue
Sawbones/Surgeon
Gambler
Thug/Brigand/Strength Rogue
Divine Rogue
Sorcerer
Dragonmark
Spellscarred
Arcane Sorcerer
Demonic Sorcerer
Fey Sorcerer
Elemental Sorcerer
Warlock
Dragon
Witch/Coven Pact
Summoner
Totemist
Wizard
Generalist

[Wizard_Lizard]

A bombsmith artificer would be cool/
EDIT: Also a dragonmark sorcerer class for eberron because I just really feel like that would be cool, particularily with aberrant mark (Granted aberrant mark is pretty much wild magic.)

[togapika]

A brawler/boxer. No mystical abilities, just a class focused on unarmed combat

[ftafp]

trapsmith artificer
gunsmith artificer
plant-focused druid
gunslinger fighter
marshal/warlord fighter
dragon warlock


Also, we need warlock invocations that make your familiar stronger and artificer infusions that are consumable

[Kane0]

Transforming barbarian
Partial caster barbarian
Heavy armor barbarian
Gambler/luck bard
Ki fighter
Tanky ranger
Spellscarred sorcerer
Any sort of pact magic half or partial caster

Artificer could use an extra one or two subclasses

Full Mystic and warlord classes

[DeadMech]

One of the first things I asked when someone asked me to play 5e is "Is there a 5th edition Crusader?"

The answer was no. It's still no. I'm still incredibly frustrated and salty at 5e for not porting crusader forward. It is plain and simple the only time I have ever had fun playing a martial class that didn't rely on spell casting. The battlemaster is a poor substitute.

I get so incredibly bored doing the same thing every round over and over and over throughout a campaign. I like making choices. The maneuver mechanic from ToB meant that I got to make choices and I never did the same thing twice in a row. And as I grew in levels I gained new things to do. And all those choices... they were meaningful and effective.

Yeah I could in 5e choose not to make a standard attack action and try to trip an enemy or shove an enemy but 99% of the time those actions aren't effective or aren't things that I benefit from directly and would do because it benefit's someone else in my party.

I could also choose to try to use skills in battle or ask my DM if I can try to something outside the rules... but that puts allot of pressure on the DM if I trust them... and if I don't trust the DM not to screw me everytime i do something creative... well I just won't ask and I'll stick to what is written down in the rules.

The crusader more than most other martial classes delivers what it promised. The game tells you that as a crusader you are the heroic immovable bulwark between the innocent and the evils of the world that want to harm them. And the mechanics back up that promise. When you play one you are a bulwark and it is very easy to play a character as one who can protect people. You have mechanics that stop enemies from ignoring you and going after other people. You have mechanics that let you make heroic last stands where an enemy seemingly strikes you down only for you to rise and stand firm. The game tells you that moment by moment of battle you are inspired by your god and led through it and the mechanics... the randomized maneuver refresh mechanics deliver upon that in such an inspired way. Going into a fight you don't know what you are going to do but you randomize your available maneuvers and gain inspiration about what to do moment by moment. It was perfect.

[Rfkannen]

I used to play too much dungeon fighter online when I was a kid, so when i think varbarian I think demons. I am still suprised there is not a demon barbarian yet.

A dragon warlock would be rad

As for mechanically missing roles.... a martial sorcerer would be fantastic. I can't remember what it was called but 4e has a barbarian path all about going super fast and two weapon fighting, maybe it was called the whirling zephyr, that would be cool in 5e.

[Spiritchaser]

Fey origin sorcerer comes up a lot in my campaigns

Arcane Paladin (counterspell, ritual casting, some access to wizard utility spells)

A mage hunter fighter or rogue (Tools to make casting near them very dangerous)

Summoner warlock (Some or all of woodland beings, animals, Elementals, animate objects etc on expanded list and a class feature that permits summons attacks to function as magical weapons, as per shepherd druid.

[rickayelm]

Arcane ranger, I have always wanted a ranger subclass for Dove Falconhand.

I would also like a shifter class or subclass. I think the archetype could cover a whole class, or it could be split between rogue and barbarian as subclasses.

Finally I would like to also add my support for the dragon Warnock. One of my favorite classes flavor wise from 3.5 was The Dragonfire Adept.

[nickl_2000]

I tend to create subclasses for things I see missing myself.

Non-magical Fencer Fighter
Sklad (half barbarian, half bard)
Telekinetic

[KorvinStarmast]

A brawler/boxer. No mystical abilities, just a class focused on unarmed combat Monk. If you need grappler/tavern brawler, there are feats.

Fey origin sorcerer comes up a lot in my campaigns

[QUOTE]Arcane Paladin (counterspell, ritual casting, some access to wizard utility spells) Hmm, lemme get back to you on that. Is this some kind of mage slayer paladin idea?


A mage hunter fighter or rogue (Tools to make casting near them very dangerous) Ranger already has this option, and there are feats.


Summoner warlock (Some or all of woodland beings, animals, Elementals, animate objects etc on expanded list and a class feature that permits summons attacks to function as magical weapons, as per shepherd druid. Maybe this would be a fine place for archfey spell list to get a revision. Of all the ones you mentioned, I think this one could use some love.

[Spiritchaser]

Is this some kind of mage slayer paladin idea?

Indeed!


Ranger already has this option, and there are feats.

I’m thinking of a player who wants a character who will not use magic at all, but is especially effective against those who do... and the feat on its own is not really enough.


Maybe this would be a fine place for archfey spell list to get a revision. Of all the ones you mentioned, I think this one could use some love.

I’m actually trying Exactly this now. The warlock in question has a LOT of options for control with eldritch blast, and let’s just say I haven’t found the balance point between making the summons stronger (what she really wants) and limiting mob of <whatever> plus EB control shinanigans. I’m convinced there’s a solution but it might be complicated.

[Bloodcloud]

Grapple monk
An unarmed barbarian (would cover the str-based monk role IMO too)
Generalist wizard
Arcana incarnate (AKA vanilla sorcerer)
A whole bunch of thrown weapon subcalss and feats.
Demon sorcerer
Ilithid sorcerer
Vampire sorcerer
Druid-style sorcerer
Elemental sorcerer for fire/ice/stone
Coven pact warlock (full on witch)

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd like to see a complex Barbarian. One that had a reason to consider the timing of Rage and had reasons to end it early. Something similar to the 4e Barbarian.

I'd like to see more high-risk, high-reward options for melee characters to dive through the enemy lines. Right now, the best strategy seems to be the universal "Stand there and take it" strategy that is pretty boring.

More attack modifiers, like Battlemaster Maneuvers, would be nice. Could probably even have it copy the Maneuvers, like how EK copies Wizards.

Some kind of subclass that transforms parts of your body, like the Alter Self spell, but as a primary feature.



Mostly, I just want options to change things up. Attacks are boring, standing there is boring, using the same 2 strategies for every fight is boring. So I'd like to see something that can't be boring.

[Aett_Thorn]

A Fey-oriented Sorc would be great, focusing on charms and illusions that many Sorcs don’t take because they are more limiting.

A Thug Rogue, who can sneak attack with clubs and maces, and is useful with Intimidation.

Moon/Darkness and Water clerics.

[Trask]

A mounted barbarian
A spear and shield fighter
An explicitly two-weapon fighter

In general I'd also like to see more non-magical martials

[LibraryOgre]

I tend to like my subclasses as light multiclasses, so things like

Druid-caster fighter (Warden?)
Cleric-Caster fighter

I really want an Int-focused, spellbook-keeping druid, which is something I want to work on.

[iTreeby]

I miss incarnum. Totemist was such a cool class. In terms of 5e, I feel like it would play like a non caster warlock with stronger invocations that you can change on a long rest. I feel like it would have to done as a set of subclasses that lose or reduce spellcasting or they would have to be entirely new classes.

[Man_Over_Game]

A mounted barbarian

Actually, Cavalier + Barbarian works out really dang well. They have a lot of synergy in their features, from taunting enemies into attacking you, to having features scale with your Constitution.

I'm not saying it'd be invalid to have a mounted Barbarian, but I think it'd have a hard time standing out from what's a pretty simple multiclass that someone would consider for the same theme.

[Spacehamster]

An actual good risk/reward barbarian, demon blooded berserker that sacrifices hp to add damage. :)

[Man_Over_Game]

An actual good risk/reward barbarian, demon blooded berserker that sacrifices hp to add damage. :)

No joke, I was working on a Rage mechanic that basically swaps out normal Rage to do that. Gains THP on applicable life lost instead of damage resistance, spends THP to deal extra damage, recovers HP scaling with level while not Raging up to 50% HP. Was intended to swap out the entire Rage mechanic so that the existing subclasses would still work, as a means for Barbarian players who want something more complex but don't want to be shoehorned into a subclass.

PM me if you're interested.

[Dienekes]

Some subclasses that I’m certain people could argue aren’t missing but I’d like to see them developed more explicitly anyway

Fighters
Front line Warlord
Hoplite/soldier
Gladiator
Wrestler
Gunslinger
Knight more focused on being an armored juggernaut

Barbarian
Two-weapon Whirling Dervish-esque
Steppe Horse Archer
Warchief that makes allies rage
Fearbarian

Rogue
Lazylord
Magicless music buffer class
MacGyver

[Arkhios]

When I think of missing subclasses, my mind travels to old prestige classes from 3rd edition.

Sacred Fist (monk with divine spellcasting or paladin with monk-like features)
Rage Mage (barbarian with arcane magic)
Black Flame Zealot (rogue with divine magic)
Tattooed Monk (self-evident)
"Martial Artist" fighter (fighter with monk-like features)

[Yakmala]

My list, many of which have already been mentioned, below:

1: Mounted Barbarian / Horse Raider.
2: Skinwalker Barbarian (shape change when raging)
3: Warlord/Tactician Fighter focusing on party support.
4: Duelist Fighter
5: Dragon Patron Warlock.
6: Genie Patron Warlock (The new version in UA is great!).
7: Fey Sorcerer.
8: Combat Medic Rogue (can be done via Thief with Healer feat, but sub-class would have more medical related abilities)
9: Thug / Strength Based Rogue.
10: Grenadier Artificer.
11: Gunslinger Artificer (I want firearms, not turrets and wands).
12: Plant based Druid
13: Urban Ranger
14: Vampire Hunter Ranger (all undead of course, not just Vampires)
15: College of Dance Bard

[Deathtongue]

A decent summoning class.

Don't get me wrong, summoning is incredibly powerful in 5E D&D, but in terms of an archetype it's lacking for three major reasons.

1.) A lot of summoners don't want to summon a grab-bag of fodder or a lieutenant they'll use for a few levels. They want a companion that will participate in the journey with them. Find Familiar and even the Beastmaster Ranger is an inadequate realization of this concept.

2.) A lot of people who want to play summoners just want to play with their summons. Right now, the only effective way to play a summoner is to concentrate on the spell and then do something else while their summons give action advantage. But a lot of summoner archetypes (most notably, Pokemon trainers) don't want to play like that. A summoner should ideally be able to use their actions to get more out of their summons.

3.) Even if you're okay with one and two, the most powerful summoners are those who don't give a tinker's damn about thematic consistency, except for very broad themes like 'fiend summoner' or 'nature summoner'. If you want to play something very slightly more narrow like 'angel summoner' or 'fire summoner', the game doesn't support your concept except in small slices of levels you may never get to. If you want to just be a beast summoner, you're SOL in the second half of the game. If you just want to summon undead things, you better get used to skeletons and zombies for the next 10 levels.

[eunwoler]

I'd like to see a complex Barbarian. One that had a reason to consider the timing of Rage and had reasons to end it early. Something similar to the 4e Barbarian.

I'd like to see more high-risk, high-reward options for melee characters to dive through the enemy lines. Right now, the best strategy seems to be the universal "Stand there and take it" strategy that is pretty boring.

More attack modifiers, like Battlemaster Maneuvers, would be nice. Could probably even have it copy the Maneuvers, like how EK copies Wizards.

Some kind of subclass that transforms parts of your body, like the Alter Self spell, but as a primary feature.



Mostly, I just want options to change things up. Attacks are boring, standing there is boring, using the same 2 strategies for every fight is boring. So I'd like to see something that can't be boring.

Have you seen the Path of the Beast UA? It's exactly what you're asking for in a body transformation barbarian except I'd prefer personally the level 10 and 14 feats to be self-affecting not just party buffs

[Joe the Rat]

Finish the elemental sorcerers - We have the UA, but I'd like to see it come together.

Luck/gambler rogue - Rogues push their luck more than most, so lets make it a feature. Lucky Halfling Gamblers should make DMs throw stuff.

Weather Druid - Land Druids (and Tempest Clerics) kind of dip into this realm, but I'd like to see a straight-up Storm Lord druid archetype.

Martial Geomancer - A primarily martial class that draws additional power from the land (and its flora and fauna?). Might be a setup for a Druid-Fighter... or it might be a different take on Storm Herald or Totem Barbarian.

Words of Power. Truenaming, Dracolexi, Hekau-wielding word magic. They've tried Onomancy, but this may be more of a "change the spellcasting flavor, and the mechanics follow" sort of thing, sort of how every artificer spell requires material components. This is one where I think leaning into Bard might work best - they are already strong on V spells, and knowing stuff is one of their bailiwicks.
Of course, you could pretty much treat Bards (Esp Lore Bard) as doing this as a straight flavor choice.

Shi'ar/Blue Mage/Spellthief/Copycat character - where borrowing, copying, or stealing traits and magics is their thing. Spell-copying arcanist is semi-straightforward, but I could dig a barbarian that has few traits or "actions" learned from other creatures (of CR X or lower, by level) available when raging. Nothing says "keep your enemies on you" like Mimic Adhesion.

[Man_Over_Game]

Have you seen the Path of the Beast UA? It's exactly what you're asking for in a body transformation barbarian except I'd prefer personally the level 10 and 14 feats to be self-affecting not just party buffs

I have not, but now I want to.

[KorvinStarmast]

I’m thinking of a player who wants a character who will not use magic at all, but is especially effective against those who do... and the feat on its own is not really enough. In a Ranger? Hmm. Sound to me like a Fighter or Paladin sub class, or even a special kind of Rogue/Assassin kit.
I’m actually trying Exactly this now. The warlock in question has a LOT of options for control with eldritch blast, and let’s just say I haven’t found the balance point between making the summons stronger (what she really wants) and limiting mob of <whatever> plus EB control shinanigans. I’m convinced there’s a solution but it might be complicated. Sounds like a fun sub class to play test.

Generalist wizard
They are already generalists. All of them. Spell restrictions are gone.

Vampire sorcerer
Aah, not keen on vampires as PCs. Vampire the Masquerade, and others, have lots of room for that trope.

Druid-style sorcerer Let's not and say we did. :smallcool:

Elemental sorcerer for fire/ice/stone Beyond Storm? Wasn't there a Phoenix Sorcerer UA a wild back? I like the idea.

Coven pact warlock (full on witch) You can sort of do that already: play as a team. I don't think that the basic structure of what a PC is, and what "adventuring" is fits that idea very well. What you describe is an NPC. (And Hags already have this).

Some subclasses that I’m certain people could argue aren’t missing but I’d like to see them developed more explicitly anyway {snip}
Hoplite/soldier
You can already do this with Shield and spear, with Pole Arm Master now including spears.

As to Macgyver, there is already the Artificer. :smallcool:

[Dienekes]

You can already do this with Shield and spear, with Pole Arm Master now including spears.

As to Macgyver, there is already the Artificer. :smallcool:

Yeah. That’s why I have my opener that some will argue they’re not missing.

Take the hoplite. You can get those feats so you can play a spear and shield fighter. I don’t think this actually fits the role of what a hoplite was other than the barest fundamentals. That’s my criticism of 5e martials pretty much completely. You can make it. Just not well.

Where’s the emphasis on formations? Where’s the protesting of allies (and don’t say the Protection it’s a terrible ability that works better for mounted warriors than otherwise). Hell the most hoplite styles ability in the game is on the Cavalier which has a lot of baggage that doesn’t fit the soldier archetype at all on it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah. That’s why I have my opener that some will argue they’re not missing.

Take the hoplite. You can get those feats so you can play a spear and shield fighter. I don’t think this actually fits the role of what a hoplite was other than the barest fundamentals. That’s my criticism of 5e martials pretty much completely. You can make it. Just not well.

Where’s the emphasis on formations? Where’s the protesting of allies (and don’t say the Protection it’s a terrible ability that works better for mounted warriors than otherwise). Hell the most hoplite styles ability in the game is on the Cavalier which has a lot of baggage that doesn’t fit the soldier archetype at all on it.

If the standard party were 10 or 11 people, yeah, formation fighting. But the standard party is 4 or 5 people.
I agree with you on the mutual protection issue as perhaps needing another look.
And Protection fighting style? Saved a Player death last week.

[GlenSmash!]

Transforming barbarian
Tanky ranger


I love this idea. Especially if it gives me a good reason to pump Constitution. I love the idea of a high Con Ranger.

[MagneticKitty]

Lycan druid. Wildshape hybrid transformations (keep their stats and gain natural weapons and temp hp) and extra attack.

Spellless ranger. Potions expert, salves, nature based healing

Nature themed warlock patron. Tarrasque, dinosaur, dragon turtle, ect type patron with wild abilities.

Raven queen Warlock (ua). I like the "able to share familiar's body" ability. It is really fun. Maybe a patron that goes with chain best (like how hexblade is meant to go with blade lock). So they get regular find familiar and can merge with normal animal familiar, but if chain they can merge with better familiar.

A better 4 elements monk. Maybe a dragon monk that specializes on a specific element.

[Spiritchaser]

In a Ranger? Hmm. Sound to me like a Fighter or Paladin sub class, or even a special kind of Rogue/Assassin kit.


I think we got our signals crossed here, I’d originally suggested it as a fighter or rogue, not as a Ranger. If it’s going to be an “I won’t touch magic” theme it’s definitely going to be easier to start with a class that doesn’t get magic by default.

I see a mage slayer arcane Paladin as a very different feel, and different type of character.

[Misterwhisper]

Duelist fighter.

Sniper based rogue.

Throwing weapon based... something.

Weave sorcerer

Hag like witch warlocks

Elemental druids

Dedicated archer monks

Knowledge based wizard

Oath of freedom Paladins who stand up for the oppressed and are huge antislavers. Very chaotic centered.

Cleric of Fear. Rule through fear and terror, worship their god because they fear what will happen if they don’t.

Vocalist bard. Sings to replace somatic components and gets sonic attacks by spending inspiration.

[thereaper]

The big two that jump out at me are the Warlord and Rage Mage (or some sort of Shaman; the Barbarian is the only class without a partial caster option).

[CapnWildefyr]

A wild magic sorcerer who just has sorcery points and wings the rest - someone who really is doing magic innately. No "known spells," the magical effects are bounded by damage, area of effect, etc. (X dice damage = Y level)

A wild magic wizard. I have a few ideas here, and not using metamagic but instead chaos theory and "eh, close enough."

A fighter that is a tough SOB. Champion is vague. Maybe gets a collection of small feats, like dirty tricks and "veteran" (for lack of a better term) maneuvers. For example, trip, sucker shield smash, free caltrops throw, spit in his eyes. Something to represent an experienced butt kicker, not just a warrior with a better critical, not a noble horse charger, just a grunt who knows how to kill people who are in his way. Still gets some improved criticals. GOT's Bron, not Jamie L.

A style-themed monk. 5 deadly venoms. Snake. Crane. Dragon. Just read the names of the characters in Kung Fu Panda.

A magic-themed fighter who has one area of ability - fire, charms, cold, acid, etc - and gets increasing abilities to add extra damage or impact based on that one concept.

[Wraith]

I'd like to see a swarm-based Druid. Wild Shape as it is excludes swarms for the fluff reason of them being made up of hundreds of smaller creatures, but mechanically a swarm is an individual stat-block and shouldn't really make much of a difference.

Give me a subclass that lets a Druid turn into a swarm - let them keep resistances to piercing/slashing/bludgeoning and let them occupy another creature's hex, that sounds like a fair trade off to a weakness to Fire damage and, say, loss of the rule that lets them regain HP when they end their Wild Shape, to represent them getting wounded as they lose more of their 'mass'.

I was also always a fan of the original Planar Shepherd - a Druid that forgoes Wild Shape into Beasts and instead chooses another 'tribe', like maybe Aberrations, would be nice to see for that creepy "monstrous ally" vibe.

I'd also like a class that plays around with the idea of using poisons as their main gimmick - a Rogue or maybe Ranger who specialises in brewing poisons and using them, with a variety of effects as they level up. Kind of like the effects that Grung cause when you touch them, with options to make it ranged or even AoE over time, like a non-magical Debuff specialist.

[FabulousFizban]

controller fighter like the warlord from 4e. The warlord really felt like something new and natural. Here was a buff/debuff martial, which eliminated the quadratic caster problem - because now a martial could play like a caster, and in a way that felt right; why wouldn't combat tactics be a skill set of the seasoned fighter?

Battlemaster approaches this, but maneuvers don't scale like spells, or increase like slots. But then, they shouldn't. Slots are for wizards, and points are for sorcerers and monks, fighters should have their own wheelhouse. Something akin to the paladin's auras would be good. A warlord fighter could possess passive auras that provide static bonuses to nearby allies - a +1 to damage or something. They could also gain abilities akin to the inspiring leader feat, or some kind of rally effect. Fear effects on enemies make sense. There is a lot that could be done with the idea. idk, that's my two cents.

[Joe the Rat]

The big two that jump out at me are the Warlord and Rage Mage (or some sort of Shaman; the Barbarian is the only class without a partial caster option).

Totem Barbarian is a ritual caster.

[Millstone85]

I know that I am a broken record on this, but every sorcerer subclass ought to have a warlock counterpart, and vice versa. It is just the result of having two classes whose subclasses are themed after creatures and planes.

So I think we are missing...



Sorcerous Origin
Otherworldly Patron


Aberrant Mind
The Great Old One


Clockwork Soul
The Inevitable


Divine Soul
The Celestial


Draconic Bloodline
The Wyrm


Fey Heritage
The Archfey


Fiendish Legacy
The Fiend


Sea/Stone/Storm/Sun
Sorcery
The Genie


Shadow Magic
The Hexblade/Undying


Wild Magic
The Slaad

[MrStabby]

So I won't repeat what I say every time this question comes up but will instead focus on new things. Of which I think there is only one recently.

I would like to see a divine flavoured artificer: blessing items, holy relics, some divine themed spells. A bit like the old archivist in flavour.

[Rfkannen]

I know that I am a broken record on this, but every sorcerer subclass ought to have a warlock counterpart, and vice versa. It is just the result of having two classes whose subclasses are themed after creatures and planes.

So I think we are missing...



Sorcerous Origin
Otherworldly Patron


Aberrant Mind
The Great Old One


Clockwork Soul
The Inevitable


Divine Soul
The Celestial


Draconic Bloodline
The Wyrm


Fey Heritage
The Archfey


Fiendish Legacy
The Fiend


Sea/Stone/Storm/Sun
Sorcery
The Genie


Shadow Magic
The Hexblade/Undying


Wild Magic
The Slaad



I am honestly super suprised that dragon warlock and fiend sorcerer weren't in the book. I feel like being descended from demons is a pretty common source for magical power in fiction (ie: merlin). And the game is called dungeons and dragons, let me play eragon!

I really want to play a multiclass between a dragon warlock and a paladin, i think that would awesome.

I would personally love a fey sorcerer but think it is likely than the others I just mentioned. Would be awesome though!

[Azuresun]

A Spellthief rogue, like the 3e class--if you don't remember it, it was like a weaker Rogue with spellcasting and the ability to steal enemy spells (and later on, supernatural abilities or energy resistance) when you hit them with a sneak attack. I've always liked the idea of stealing enemy powers or spells, and having new options based on what I'm facing. Of course, copying a lot of monster abilities could be pretty broken, so it could simply work as a list of unique spellthief abilities that you could use when you sneak attacked something with a comparable power--ie, gain fire resistance when you hit a devil, gain temporary hit points if you hit a troll, etc.

The Sacred Fist--a monk with limited divine casting or ki abilities that mimic divine spells. It's another 3e thing that I really liked, and it would be a great fit for gods of strength. Kind of like a monk equivalent of the Zealot, come to think of it.

[MrStabby]

A Spellthief rogue, like the 3e class--if you don't remember it, it was like a weaker Rogue with spellcasting and the ability to steal enemy spells (and later on, supernatural abilities or energy resistance) when you hit them with a sneak attack. I've always liked the idea of stealing enemy powers or spells, and having new options based on what I'm facing. Of course, copying a lot of monster abilities could be pretty broken, so it could simply work as a list of unique spellthief abilities that you could use when you sneak attacked something with a comparable power--ie, gain fire resistance when you hit a devil, gain temporary hit points if you hit a troll, etc.

The Sacred Fist--a monk with limited divine casting or ki abilities that mimic divine spells. It's another 3e thing that I really liked, and it would be a great fit for gods of strength. Kind of like a monk equivalent of the Zealot, come to think of it.

The problem is that this would step on the toes of the arcane trickster a bit - who is a rogue that steals spells.

[GearsX]

Real psionics

Psionic fist (type of psionic monk)

Inquisitor Paladin or any anti magic class.

Blackguard

[Kane0]

I would like to see a divine flavoured artificer: blessing items, holy relics, some divine themed spells. A bit like the old archivist in flavour.

Sounds neat!

[Arkhios]

Real psionics

Psionic fist (type of psionic monk)

Inquisitor Paladin or any anti magic class.

Blackguard

+1 for Real Psionics and Psionic Fist subclass to emphasize the monks' unwritten affinity with psionics.

However, regarding the bolded parts above, I would like to point you to Ranger Archetype: Monster Slayer.

Despite it's name, Monster Slayer does everything you need to be good at "anti-magic", even against non-monstrous magic users. In fact, it's an all-rounder in regards to anti-magic.
It's 11th level feature itself is called "Magic-User's Nemesis" for crying out loud! :smallsmile:

Likewise, the Oathbreaker Paladin is terribly close to what a Blackguard would be, so I doubt it'll get any more attention.

[Aussiehams]

The luck rogue is in the free Runeterra supplement that just came out.

[Spiritchaser]

Despite it's name, Monster Slayer does everything you need to be good at "anti-magic", even against non-monstrous magic users. In fact, it's an all-rounder in regards to anti-magic.
It's 11th level feature itself is called "Magic-User's Nemesis" for crying out loud! :smallsmile:


I disagree. In practice, I would argue that the monster slayer just doesn’t have the tools to survive and be effective against a dedicated magic user.

Even if you put nemesis on a Wismod/LR you simply don’t have options or abilities to deal with a creative application of any meaningful portion of the spell list.

[edit: there might be some level of frequency of nemesis where this could be closer to viable, but shutting down spells is something that you need to be able to attempt more than once per conflict, and it’s only part of the game of chess you need to be able to play. If you also threw in a strong line of sight breaking control, increase Ethereal step usage or significantly increase range on distant strike and provided some strong buff to magic saves, and a repeatable way to break concentration you’d be in better shape, but you’d also have added far too much to this ranger subclass. I’d advocate building a Paladin subclass to fill this role because that base class already has some good pieces of that puzzle filled in.]

I’m not saying that monster slayer is a bad class, only that it doesn’t mechanically fill this particular role.

[Chronos]

A lot of these were already said, but...

A divine-flavored bard. College of Hymns, or an individual can be called a Cantor. I'm not sure what abilities they'd have, but maybe some extra spells added to their list, some things to improve healing, maybe a Channel Divinity or two.

Psychic monks and sorcerers, to update the Psychic Warrior and Psion classes from 3e. I made a stab at these myself (see sig).

Fiendish sorcerers hadn't occurred to me before, but now that they're mentioned, I agree.

Oath of Knowledge for paladins, giving them a more arcane flavor. Might or might not be mage-hunters, but out for the preservation of learning.

Dragonpact warlocks. Dragons are a Real Big Deal as a source of power. Give them an at-will breath weapon that's about as good as Eldritch Blast (including scaling), and they're an update for the Dragonfire Adept. Maybe also some invocations to get a few auras, so they can also be an update for Dragon Shaman.

Clerics need a couple more domains. First, Darkness, which is often but not necessarily evil, and is completely different from Death. For flavor reasons, make any spell they cast that would do Radiant damage instead do Cold, but make their Cold unresistable.

Second, we need a domain for deities of love/beauty. Mechanically, the Order domain from Ravnica actually works pretty well for this, but the fluff is completely wrong.

[Millstone85]

Second, we need a domain for deities of love/beauty. Mechanically, the Order domain from Ravnica actually works pretty well for this, but the fluff is completely wrong.So, I am not usually one to side with the woke police, but I think WotC deserved the backlash they got over that UA. Making a "love cleric" that is all about enchantment spells and other mind-control effects, it did have some very unsavory connotations.

WotC soon straight-up removed the UA from their website, and replaced it with a new domain that is about "forging an empowering bond between willing creatures". Yes, thank you! Although I don't think it was necessary to change the name of the domain from Love to Unity.

Now, a Beauty or Art domain, yes, sure, make it enchanting.

[Dienekes]

So, I am not usually one to side with the woke police, but I think WotC deserved the backlash they got over that UA. Making a "love cleric" that is all about enchantment spells and other mind-control effects, it did have some very unsavory connotations.

WotC soon straight-up removed the UA from their website, and replaced it with a new domain that is about "forging an empowering bond between willing creatures". Yes, thank you! Although I don't think it was necessary to change the name of the domain from Love to Unity.

Now, a Beauty or Art domain, yes, sure, make it enchanting.

On the other hand having the love domain being all about mind control is pitch perfect representation of Aphrodite. If that’s what they were going for, anyway.

If they were trying to portray modern view of romance. Yeah they failed.

[Millstone85]

On the other hand having the love domain being all about mind control is pitch perfect representation of Aphrodite. If that’s what they were going for, anyway.

If they were trying to portray modern view of romance. Yeah they failed.Well, the PHB lists Aphrodite as a CG goddess of love and beauty.

I would argue that a myth-accurate version of Aphrodite would not fit that alignment, as the Great Wheel is built on modern concepts of good and evil. Of course, that's always a can of worms.

Alternatively, it would be another reason to make Love and Beauty distinct domains, which Aphrodite happens to combine.

Also, I would prefer the Love domain to encompass what some call "the four loves", which is to say romance, friendship, family and charity.

[djreynolds]

I would like a "primitive" barbarian or regional barbarian. I enjoyed when 2nd Unearthed Arcana came out with their barbarian who was not a Conan esque type. This was a warrior using the basics with weapons: spears, harpoons, hand axes, dagger, darts and knives.

^^^This might be campaign specific though.^^^

And a high fantasy barbarian.. I guess we have that

I would like a shaman type caster who has a little of all the casters... it could actually be a bard subclass

I like the idea of a New England Style Halloween witch/warlock

I would like an elemental eldritch knight.... or perhaps a dragon fighter... a fighter picks a dragon and gets elemental spells.

There are so many.

But not piggy back on another post of another thread, perhaps a Title or package you could just select at say 10th or 11th level.

It can just be addition.

And special feats for fighters and rogues but only at 6th and 14th for fighters, or 10th for rogues.

[FoxWolFrostFire]

I would like to see another unarmed class. Most likely Barbarian. Like he gets like d8 unarmed wild raging kind of stuff.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Personally I would like to see prior edition base and PrC classes especially from more obscure sources brought back as subclasses. Such as:

Battle Dancer (Monk subclass)
Blackguard (Paladin subclass)

Tome of Battle (3.5)
- Crusader (Paladin subclass)
- Swordsage (Wizard subclass)
- Warblade (Fighter subclass)
- Bloodclaw Master (Druid subclass)
- Bloodstorm Blade (Ranger subclass)
- Ruby Knight Vindicator (Cleric subclass)
- Shadow Sun Ninja (Rogue subclass)
- Master of Nine (Monk subclass)
- Deepstone Sentinel (Warlock patron exclusive to Dwarves)
- Eternal Blade (Warlock patron probably exclusive to Elves)
- Jade Phoenix Mage (Sorcerer?)

Tome of Magic (3.5)
- Binder (Pact Boon feature of Warlock)
- Truenamer (Wizard subclass)
- Knight of the Sacred Seal (Paladin subclass)
- Witch Slayer (Ranger subclass)
- Tenebrous Apostate (Paladin or Cleric subclass could work)
- Shadowsmith (Artificer subclass)
- Shadowblade (Ranger subclass)
- Child of Night (Rogue subclass)
- Acolyte of the Ego (Cleric subclass)
- Disciple of the Word (Cleric subclass)

Magic of Incarnium (3.5)
- Incarnate (Wizard subclass)
- Soulborn (Paladin subclass)
- Totemist (Druid subclass)
- Incandescent Champion (Fighter r Paladin subclass)
- Incarnum Blade (Fighter subclass)
- Ironsoul Forgemaster (Artificer subclass)
- Necrocarnate (Warlock possibly)
- Sapphire Hierarch (Cleric subclass)
- Totem Rager (Barbarian subclass)
- Umbreal Disciple (Rogue subclass)
- Witchborn Binder (Ranger or Warlock)

And a proper placement of psionic subclasses

- Battlemind (4e, Barbarian subclass)
- Psychic Warrior (Fighter subclass)
- Psion (Wizard subclass)
- Soulknife (Monk subclass)
- Ardent (Bard subclass)
- Lurk (Rogue subclass)
- Divine Mind (Cleric subclass)

[Man_Over_Game]

Totem Barbarian is a ritual caster.

Mmm....I'm not sure one ritual spell counts, especially when they changed some of the rules with that spell when they cast it. They could have just as well made it a Barbarian-specific mechanic that acted similarly to the spell and disqualified it from being a "caster" without much additional work.

[ftafp]

I got to thinking the other day about how Druid, Cleric, Monk and Magus are all bastardized versions of priests from different religions and it got me thinking about what other modern-day religions would look like as subclasses. Apologies in advance if I accidentally lean on stereotypes, these are mostly based on loose cultural interpretations of other religion's mysticism

Cleric Subclass: Cabalist
A support subclass loosely inspired by my own jewish heritage. Unlike other cleric subclasses, the Cabalist doesn't represent a single aspect of their patron god, instead their duty is to uphold the ancient rites and traditions of a people, even if the gods they worship fall into obscurity. Cabalists features include choosing non-damaging spells that can be cast as if they were ritual spells, and twinning buffs on allies. There might also be some kind of ability that lets you construct a golem to protect an ally.

Monk Subclass: Way of the Guru
A 1/3-caster subclass loosely inspired by Hindu Mysticism. The guru is a divine caster who makes their body their temple and draws purifying the divine essence inside themselves as a means of worship. It uses divination and transmutation spells from the druid spell list. Might have abilities similar to magic Of Incarnum's chakra system, or maybe a high-level ability to cast transmutations/divinations spells on itself without concentration by consuming spell slots

Druid Subclass: Circle of the Shaman
A mixed-purpose subclass loosely inspired by ancester-worshipping religions. The shaman is a spellcasting counterpart to the ancestral guardian barbarian that gets circle spells like spirit guardians, unseen servant and speak with dead and abilities that allow them to draw on their ancestor's skills as well as their fighting spirits

Rogue Subclass: Demagogue
A 1/3-caster subclass inspired by personality cults. Also known as Ur Priests, demagogues gain divine powers by making themselves an object of worship and drawing on the prayers of their followers. Demagogues get enchantment and evocations spells from the cleric spell list and a host of abilities for charming and manipulating followers with their words.

[GearsX]

+1 for Real Psionics and Psionic Fist subclass to emphasize the monks' unwritten affinity with psionics.

However, regarding the bolded parts above, I would like to point you to Ranger Archetype: Monster Slayer.

Despite it's name, Monster Slayer does everything you need to be good at "anti-magic", even against non-monstrous magic users. In fact, it's an all-rounder in regards to anti-magic.
It's 11th level feature itself is called "Magic-User's Nemesis" for crying out loud! :smallsmile:

Likewise, the Oathbreaker Paladin is terribly close to what a Blackguard would be, so I doubt it'll get any more attention.

Never really payed much attention to the Ranger subclasses so good to know!

What I meant with Blackguard is like a Dark Paladin/Cleric with all those fancy raise undead spells and such / necromancy and being a martial character at the same time, though again nothing a bit of multi classing cant fix but seems to me I recall a class like it back in 3.5 or something

[Arkhios]

What I meant with Blackguard is like a Dark Paladin/Cleric with all those fancy raise undead spells and such / necromancy and being a martial character at the same time, though again nothing a bit of multi classing cant fix but seems to me I recall a class like it back in 3.5 or something

Which is exactly what the Oathbreaker does. Just, seriously, read it. It seems you haven't, because Oathbreaker literally gets features and spells to animate, control and buff undead creatures. Sure, they're also good with fiends, but that's just a bonus if all you want is to focus on necromancy all the while being a martial character, capable of attacking with a big axe.

[Anjun]

A combat sorcerer with a second attack at lvl 6.
I was really dissapointed when they changed that for divine soul. It would have been my absolut fovourite class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Good news, my Guide to Greatness (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/267038/Grods-Guide-to-Greatness) covers almost all of those!


My version of the Artificer has a blasty bomb/wand subclass
I've got a Summoner base class that fills that huge swathe of concepts.
I've got an urban half-caster base class, the Steelsworn, which should scratch your itch for urban rangers
I've got unarmed, ranged/antimagic, transformation, and non-insane-raging Barbarian options.
I've got ocean Clerics
I've got martial, blasty, and bug Druids
I've got inspirational, magic-weapon-specialist, alchemist, and at-will-magic Fighters
I've got armored and archer Monks.
I've got casting and shapeshifting Rangers
I've got sniper, strength, and healing Rogues
I've got fiend, fey, and martial Sorcerers
I've got Dragon Warlocks
I've got generalist Wizards.

[Kane0]

Heh, well plugged.

[ragnorack1]

A bit specific but I'd like to be able to make an effective Retarius, whether through a barbarian or rogue subclass or feats to make the spear and net combo effective.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Heh, well plugged.
I mean, hey, I started the book by referencing a thread just like this one.

[Talionis]

I think I’d like to see Incarnate, Chameleon and Factotum for Artificer.

Totemist might make an interesting Ranger Subclass.

Rage Mage for Barbarian at 1/3 caster.

Master Thrower for Fighter

Warlock — Binder.

[Chronos]

I suppose that factotum would make sense as an artificer subclass, given that the word literally means "make anything".

[Hytheter]

I know that I am a broken record on this, but every sorcerer subclass ought to have a warlock counterpart, and vice versa. It is just the result of having two classes whose subclasses are themed after creatures and planes.

So I think we are missing...

You see "sorcerer and warlock should have more overlapping subclasses", I see "maybe sorcerer and warlock should just be the same class." Use Warlock as the base (Sorcerers as short rest casters just feels right to me) and fold metamagic into invocations and you're basically good to go.

Well, the ship has sailed I suppose.

[Millstone85]

You see "sorcerer and warlock should have more overlapping subclasses", I see "maybe sorcerer and warlock should just be the same class."Oh no, trust me, I see that too.


Well, the ship has sailed I suppose.Indeed it has, which is why we are left asking where are the draconic patron and the fiendish bloodline.

[ForeverFlame]

The Gambler Rogue Archetype
One big aspect of the Rogue that I think is underexplored is the association with probability. Stroke of Luck is a pretty clear nod to some level of probability mastery. I think the archetype that pairs with this best is the 'gambler' archetype. This could apply to characters that have innate probability manipulation, are insightful enough to make their own luck, that were blessed by some external source to be lucky, have a pre written destiny, or have simply managed to chance out. There's also thematic space of card, dice association, and a metagaming element due to the tabletop RPG setting.

Fictional characters that key off of this include Joker from DC, Faraday from the Magnificent Seven, Domino, Chance and Gambit from Marvel, D'arby brothers from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Matrim Cauthon from The Wheel of Time, Hiruma from Eyeshield 21, Le Chiffre from Casino Royale.


They covered Gambler Rogue in the recent Legends of Runeterra crossover.

[eunwoler]

They covered Gambler Rogue in the recent Legends of Runeterra crossover.

Eh sort of. You can play gambit but not most other types. It has flavour based around gambling objects, playing cards in particular but aside from that the class has nothing that manipulates probability in the way that would fills the fictional archetype in playstyle. Nothing about risk and reward etc. Hell the capstone turns you into that Kitty Pryde girl from X men

[Tawmis]

What I would like to see is...

Knights, for fighters.
Knights are prevalent in so much lore and stories, but we don't really have them in D&D (well, other than Dragonlance) and there's some mention of it in Sword Coast Adventures (Purple Knights), but it didn't really develop how it works (I want something detailed like Dragonlance - not just the mechanics, but the structure and order).

Shamans as a version of the Cleric.
Something that is more primitive. Like I could see goblins and orcs, having Shamans rather than Clerics. And even barbarian cultures.
So the emphasis would not be on wearing heavy armor. They'd focus more on speaking with dead, animals, and nature.
So a mixture of what makes a Druid and Cleric.

[Dienekes]

What I would like to see is...

Knights, for fighters.
Knights are prevalent in so much lore and stories, but we don't really have them in D&D (well, other than Dragonlance) and there's some mention of it in Sword Coast Adventures (Purple Knights), but it didn't really develop how it works (I want something detailed like Dragonlance - not just the mechanics, but the structure and order).

Shamans as a version of the Cleric.
Something that is more primitive. Like I could see goblins and orcs, having Shamans rather than Clerics. And even barbarian cultures.
So the emphasis would not be on wearing heavy armor. They'd focus more on speaking with dead, animals, and nature.
So a mixture of what makes a Druid and Cleric.

Technically knights are supposed to be fit with cavaliers. And while the subclass itself is fine, there's a definite argument to be made that it doesn't really fit what knights actually did all that well. It is certainly odd that the most heavily armored pre-industrial warrior doesn't really have anything to promote it's survivability and defense, and a lot of its abilities seem more geared toward area control and reaction attacks.

[Arkhios]

Technically knights are supposed to be fit with cavaliers. And while the subclass itself is fine, there's a definite argument to be made that it doesn't really fit what knights actually did all that well. It is certainly odd that the most heavily armored pre-industrial warrior doesn't really have anything to promote it's survivability and defense, and a lot of its abilities seem more geared toward area control and reaction attacks.

I feel that Cavalier's purpose is to be the White Knight in Shining Armor without being a paladin. They excel in drawing the blows towards them, protecting the weak, and swiftly retaliating those who dare attack their wards. In that sense they do fit the niche of a Knight. Plus, they're very good mounted combatants without feats. But as a fighter, they can afford to take a few feats to fulfill that role even better if they want to. As for their survivability and defense needs? Cavalier is a fighter. Fighters are defensive and survivable on their own. Plus what they don't have, they can take as feats.

[Dienekes]

I feel that Cavalier's purpose is to be the White Knight in Shining Armor without being a paladin. They excel in drawing the blows towards them, protecting the weak, and swiftly retaliating those who dare attack their wards. In that sense they do fit the niche of a Knight. Plus, they're very good mounted combatants without feats. But as a fighter, they can afford to take a few feats to fulfill that role even better if they want to. As for their survivability and defense needs? Cavalier is a fighter. Fighters are defensive and survivable on their own. Plus what they don't have, they can take as feats.

Sure it’s just weird that the knight can’t get a good charge until level 15. And while it’s true they’re still the fighter, they are the least survivable subclass apart from the Arcane Archer (with maybe Echo Knight haven’t seen it). Champion, Battlemaster, and even the Samurai are all more survivable than the guy supposedly there to represent the armored juggernaut that is a knight.

[furryblueelf]

I would like to see some form of Blood/Hemo wizard, and a class that intrinsically uses constitution as their main stat.

[Cerefel]

A combat sorcerer with a second attack at lvl 6.

I came here to say this exact thing! Why are sorcerers the only arcane casters without an extra attack subclass??

[Chronos]

"Blood casters" who use their own lifeforce to power their spells always sound cool, but they're nigh-impossible to balance right in nearly any game system.

[FabulousFizban]

A Spellthief rogue, like the 3e class--if you don't remember it, it was like a weaker Rogue with spellcasting and the ability to steal enemy spells (and later on, supernatural abilities or energy resistance) when you hit them with a sneak attack. I've always liked the idea of stealing enemy powers or spells, and having new options based on what I'm facing. Of course, copying a lot of monster abilities could be pretty broken, so it could simply work as a list of unique spellthief abilities that you could use when you sneak attacked something with a comparable power--ie, gain fire resistance when you hit a devil, gain temporary hit points if you hit a troll, etc.

classic blue mage. I'm onboard.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I came here to say this exact thing! Why are sorcerers the only arcane casters without an extra attack subclass??
Probably because they're also the only arcane caster with Quicken Spell.

[Man_Over_Game]

classic blue mage. I'm onboard.

That's already a late-game Arcane Trickster mechanic, which I like more as you're more likely to encounter mages at level 15 than level 3. Which is why I'd think any subclass that'd rely strictly on countering mages would be doomed to fail.

War Mage, Abjurer, and Monster Hunter Ranger come close, which is why they are compensated with features that are usable in every possible situation.

[MrStabby]

That's already a late-game Arcane Trickster mechanic, which I like more as you're more likely to encounter mages at level 15 than level 3.

Where did this come from? Why do you think that? It seems... odd.







Thinking generally about subclasses I would like to see, I would like to see some experiments with breaking the "rules" on some of the classes.

A paladin that doesn't have domain spells, doesn't get a channel divinity at level 3 but instead gets some other cool abilities; likewise for clerics. A subclass of a cleric needn't be a domian.

Barbarian subclasses lean heavily on features that enhance rage - how about a barbarian subclass that doesn't change what rage does?

There are a lot of patterns that push a good number of subclasses to being very symetrical - something that breaks that symmetry could be good fun.

[Chronos]

A paladin that doesn't have domain spells, doesn't get a channel divinity at level 3 but instead gets some other cool abilities; likewise for clerics. A subclass of a cleric needn't be a domian.
The cleric class feature that gives them subclasses is literally "Divine domain". It's not "At 1st level, choose a subclass. That subclass can be a domain". It's "At 1st level, choose a domain".

[MrStabby]

The cleric class feature that gives them subclasses is literally "Divine domain". It's not "At 1st level, choose a subclass. That subclass can be a domain". It's "At 1st level, choose a domain".

Ummm.... so?

It can still be called a domain to fit with the instructions, but just not be a domain in terms of the standard interpretation of the word.

[Man_Over_Game]

Where did this come from? Why do you think that? It seems... odd.

Last I recall, Arcane Tricksters have a power that allows them to steal the knowledge of a spell that was cast upon them. Not only does this prepare the spell for themselves for (8 hours, I think), but it also prevents the owner from having access to it until you spend it. Like a classic spell thief.

I don't think that anti-mage mechanics have a place as a primary mechanic, as enemy mages are more inconsistent the lower level you are. The classes that DO have mechanics that are exceptional against mages (counterspell, saving throw buffs) happen to get those mechanics later on and instead get very generic core mechanics that are impossible to not use.

"Circumstantially beneficial" should never define a primary subclass mechanic. I'm not saying something like a spellthief or a blue mage couldn't exist, but it'd be hard pressed to do it in a way where it didn't have the possibility of having unused, early-game mechanics. Although, the Blue Mage could just have a table that gives him cantrips based on what kind of enemy types he's fought that day, with very broad categories (so beasts and fey both grant you Thorn Whip and Primal Savagery) and improved stats when using those cantrips (like +Proficiency to your Spellcasting modifier).

[Arkhios]

Last I recall, Arcane Tricksters have a power that allows them to steal the knowledge of a spell that was cast upon them. Not only does this prepare the spell for themselves for (8 hours, I think), but it also prevents the owner from having access to it until you spend it. Like a classic spell thief.

I don't think that anti-mage mechanics have a place as a primary mechanic, as enemy mages are more inconsistent the lower level you are. The classes that DO have mechanics that are exceptional against mages (counterspell, saving throw buffs) happen to get those mechanics later on and instead get very generic core mechanics that are impossible to not use.

"Circumstantially beneficial" should never define a primary subclass mechanic. I'm not saying something like a spellthief or a blue mage couldn't exist, but it'd be hard pressed to do it in a way where it didn't have the possibility of having unused, early-game mechanics. Although, the Blue Mage could just have a table that gives him cantrips based on what kind of enemy types he's fought that day, with very broad categories (so beasts and fey both grant you Thorn Whip and Primal Savagery) and improved stats when using those cantrips (like +Proficiency to your Spellcasting modifier).

I believe you are referring to the 17th level feature, below:



At 17th level, you gain the ability to magically steal the knowledge of how to cast a spell from another spellcaster.

Immediately after a creature casts a spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect, you can use your reaction to force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier. The DC equals your spell save DC. On a failed save, you negate the spell's effect against you, and you steal the knowledge of the spell if it is at least 1st level and of a level you can cast (it doesn't need to be a wizard spell). For the next 8 hours, you know the spell and can cast it using your spell slots. The creature can't cast that spell until the 8 hours have passed.

Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.

[Man_Over_Game]

I believe you are referring to the 17th level feature, below:

Yes, even called Spellthief!

There's a fun thing you can do with it as a 17/3 Wizard, where you can fill your book full of Wizard spells that you've stolen. A bit niche, but would make for an interesting NPC.

[MrStabby]

Last I recall, Arcane Tricksters have a power that allows them to steal the knowledge of a spell that was cast upon them. Not only does this prepare the spell for themselves for (8 hours, I think), but it also prevents the owner from having access to it until you spend it. Like a classic spell thief.

I don't think that anti-mage mechanics have a place as a primary mechanic, as enemy mages are more inconsistent the lower level you are. The classes that DO have mechanics that are exceptional against mages (counterspell, saving throw buffs) happen to get those mechanics later on and instead get very generic core mechanics that are impossible to not use.

"Circumstantially beneficial" should never define a primary subclass mechanic. I'm not saying something like a spellthief or a blue mage couldn't exist, but it'd be hard pressed to do it in a way where it didn't have the possibility of having unused, early-game mechanics. Although, the Blue Mage could just have a table that gives him cantrips based on what kind of enemy types he's fought that day, with very broad categories (so beasts and fey both grant you Thorn Whip and Primal Savagery) and improved stats when using those cantrips (like +Proficiency to your Spellcasting modifier).

I was asking why you think wizards are more common later in the game. In all the games I have played wizards have been equally common all the way through. Now dragons, yes - they get more common later. Giants dont often appear Tier 1... oozes dont appear so much after tier 2 in my experience, and if they do it is as part of a trap or more complex encounter. But wizards and other casters? Yeah, they dont get much more or less common. I was wondering what basis you were using for your assertion that they did.

[Man_Over_Game]

I was asking why you think wizards are more common later in the game. In all the games I have played wizards have been equally common all the way through. Now dragons, yes - they get more common later. Giants dont often appear Tier 1... oozes dont appear so much after tier 2 in my experience, and if they do it is as part of a trap or more complex encounter. But wizards and other casters? Yeah, they dont get much more or less common. I was wondering what basis you were using for your assertion that they did.

Sorry, didn't mean "wizard", I just meant spellcasters in general. There are more "specialized" casters early on, but I find that late-game creatures often have spellcasting casually.

[eunwoler]

There are alot of gish subclasses here. Divine this, divine that, as well as lots of crossover content from class to class. What are some totally class exclusive subclasses that don't step on the toes of anything else?

[Man_Over_Game]

There are alot of gish subclasses here. Divine this, divine that, as well as lots of crossover content from class to class. What are some totally class exclusive subclasses that don't step on the toes of anything else?

Hmm..

Some kind of Scribe Wizard, maybe something that specializes in traps, runes, buffs, and scrolls.

A weaponmaster Fighter, one that's heavily incentivized to regularly change what weapon he's using at all times. I wrote up a concept for one a long time ago that gained buffs based on what traits your weapons have that you're holding when you attack (like using the Slashing trait granted you +2 to damage, while missing with a Heavy weapon caused a secondary attack roll against a target adjacent to your original with Disadvantage).

A Barbarian that expends his life as a resource, but also has means of regenerating it back, making it a high risk, high reward playstyle.

A Commander Rogue, one that grants others his Sneak Attack bonus as means of damage resistance from a specific target, or extra damage to that target, and other means of supporting his team other than damage based on the Rogue's positioning. Damage contribution isn't excluded, it's just no longer the goal.

A Ranger that can use nearby wildlife to scout for his allies by syncing into them. He controls beasts while leaving his body in a meditative stance, dangerous to use in combat but highly effective when used properly.

A Paladin who's goal is to become the best. It has no desire for control, domination, or even much of saving the world. They believe they deserve to be the strongest, and pursue that as its own means. Mechanically, it'd deal with setups and counter-strikes, things that abuse predictable enemies into making their own graves, and is more mechanically complex than "Divine Smite for 9 damage plz".

A Sorcerer that specializes in sensing and weaving magic, able to enchant things full of raw power or drain it from something else. They could enchant allies as a conduit to cast their spells through (Warding Bond on target, you can see through the target's senses and cast through their position using their Reaction, spells with a range of Self affect both as long as the Bond holds), or rig a nearby object with a spell as a trap.

[daremetoidareyo]

A sea-cucumber based archetype on the battlemaster base. Stuff like:
Flagella bonus action attack
camouflage
An offensive Vomitting reaction.
Like a skunk blast.
cut in half and both sides surviving.
Magic excretions that act as glue, grease, or other alchemical items.

Basically it's like a junk drawer of gross biological stuff powered by inferiority dice. Ya know, Garbage patch kid stuff.

We’ll call it ”the wretched."

[rickayelm]

I think they need to make a Chaos domain for clerics, a Darkness domain would also be nice.

I would also like a diabolist subclass for wizard, the demon summoning spells almost never get used because they are unreliable. If they made a subclass that made them a little more reliable that would be great.

And finally I would like them to publish their shape shifting barbarian.

[Sam113097]

I would love Ocean and Cold Cleric Domains, and I also think that the old 3.5e Binder class would be an interesting subclass (or Pact Boon) for the Warlock or Sorcerer.

[LibraryOgre]

The Thief-Acrobat.

[MrStabby]

I would love Ocean and Cold Cleric Domains, and I also think that the old 3.5e Binder class would be an interesting subclass (or Pact Boon) for the Warlock or Sorcerer.

Yeah, I would love these. There are some cool ocean/water themed spells out there - although none of them are really outstanding from a pure power perspective (also few in the core book).

And cold... another great concept. Not sure I am quite so into this one but certainly more interesting than say the war domain.