What arcane class to choose?

[Max Caysey]

So, I have more or less build my druid for an upcoming campaign. But I'm considering going Arcane Hierophant later, so I can have my animal companion be my familiar as well.

1) What class/ build are good in combination with Druid? Initially I was just thinking of going wizard, because of the wide spell selection, but there might be better options that I don't know of. (We can use all official, except Eberron. I'm playing a human druid, level 4.)

2) If I choose Leadership as a feat, can I then have my animal companion as Cohord? And if so, does it gain class levels?

3) Is there anyway for a druid to get his animal companion as special mount?


Cheers!

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Max Caysey
Initially I was just thinking of going wizard, because of the wide spell selection, but there might be better options that I don't know of.

Wizard is probably not a bad choice, but some people use Druid 3/Bard 2/Green Whisperer 2/Arcane Hierophant X.

Green Whisperer is a PrC from Dragon 311 that advances both bard and druid spellcasting. The question would be whether your table allows Dragon content.


Originally Posted by Max Caysey
I'm playing a human druid, level 4.

Out of curiosity, what’s your full build?

[Max Caysey]

Wizard is probably not a bad choice, but some people use Druid 3/Bard 2/Green Whisperer 2/Arcane Hierophant X.

Green Whisperer is a PrC from Dragon 311 that advances both bard and druid spellcasting. The question would be whether your table allows Dragon content.

Well, Dragon is being allowd on an individual basis, so I'd have to ask, but usually its ok.



Out of curiosity, what’s your full build?

Its 4 levels of druid. Feats are: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Greenbound Summoning, Exalted Companion. Flaw is so far Love of Nature. My animal companion is the Elk from Dragon 311 (i think its 311), which has been trained as Warbeast. My stats are 10, 10, 16, 12, 19, 10. The character is Neutral Good.

So yeah, its primrilly a summoner. My secondary focus is my animal companion and thirdly will be wildshaping... That might not be the absolute best way of playing a druid, but I think this will be fun...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Max Caysey
Well, Dragon is being allowd on an individual basis, so I'd have to ask, but usually its ok.

Green Whisperer is a semi-obscure PrC, but fairly innocuous, and it meshes thematically with Arcane Hierophant. It advances bardic music, bardic knowledge, and bard and druid spellcasting.

The one thing it doesn’t advance is wild shape. However, if Pathfinder content is allowed at your table—and I know that’s a big if—then Shaping Focus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shaping-focus/) will cover perfectly for those levels of bard and Green Whisperer. I know that might be outside your table’s sources, but it fits well enough that it deserves a mention.


Originally Posted by Max Caysey
That might not be the absolute best way of playing a druid, but I think this will be fun...

The best way to play a druid is the way you think will be fun. :smalltongue:

[Gruftzwerg]

3) Is there anyway for a druid to get his animal companion as special mount?


Cheers!

Devoted Tracker (feat) lets your special mount count as animal companion.

btw, it seems you are interested in "ubermount (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?104367-The-Supermount-2-0-updated)" builds. This is one of em, you can google the term yourself for more info on that topic.

edit: if you are just looking for mounted druid builds overall I can recommend to have a look at my papa smurf build for some inspiration.

[Malphegor]

Mostly comes down to what secondary ability score do you have high. Druids can get an arcane caster into both Arcane Theurge and Arcane Hierophant so you've got a lot of spells from both classes together.

If wizard, I recommend the UA Domain Wizard, since it gives you some spells from your special domain for free. Transmutation domain might work out on the basis that it's resembling your existing Wildshapes except from an arcane perspective, taking your knowledge of shapeshifting and studying it. Intelligence based, so you'd be focusing on Wisdom and Intelligence. Let's call this the Myrddin Wyllt option.

If you want minions, Dread Necromancer has some solid options in its spell list. Makes for a kind of cute Life And Death character where you protect the natural world and even that which die cannot in slumber eternally lie, the dead are not yet done for a war is still to be won. Fixed list caster so stuff like Mother Cyst and Arcane Disciple add those spells to its list meaning it's not as limited as it initially looks. You also get a fun ghostly familiar that might interact weirdly with the Arcane Hierophant's 'merge familiar with animal companion'. Charisma based so might be cool with your wild empathy to be a Wis/Cha character. Both DN and Druid have bits of minionmancy, so expect to have a bit of paperwork to do to figure out your army of living and dead's capabilities. Has a fear aura similar to a dragon's frightful presence so tends to be a good intimidator.

Bard gets buffs. If you can be dragonblooded, the bard music feat Dragonfire Channeling to make allies' weapons burn with the energy of your progenitor dragon might work out as really awesome with wildshape. It's not just a Fleshraker, it's a fleshraker with LAZER CLAWS! Also charisma focused, and its skills are more geared towards social stuff.

You lose access to your arcane spells while wildshaped even with Natural spell, so you might want to look at crafting items to activate in animal form maybe. I dunno where to start with that, something touch activated would be best for animal forms.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're a wood elf, so you have the elf weapon proficiencies. Use the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it, and go Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Hierophant 10. You don't need to get the familiar class feature from your arcane class, AH counts its levels anyway.

[Zanos]

How far do you want to go with arcane casting? It's going to be a problem getting your casting stat up to the point where you can actually use your slots. You'll need a +4 int headband if you decide to go Wiz 1/AH 10.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
You're a wood elf....

Not anymore. In the OP's other thread he mentioned that he ended up going human.

[Zombulian]

Wizard is probably not a bad choice, but some people use Druid 3/Bard 2/Green Whisperer 2/Arcane Hierophant X.

Green Whisperer is a PrC from Dragon 311 that advances both bard and druid spellcasting. The question would be whether your table allows Dragon content.



Out of curiosity, what’s your full build?

It looks to me like Green Whisperer just outright gives you bard features and bard casting if you can manage to enter the class. This is very interesting...

[el minster]

Domain Wizard is the perfect example of UA cheese

[Max Caysey]

Devoted Tracker (feat) lets your special mount count as animal companion.

btw, it seems you are interested in "ubermount (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?104367-The-Supermount-2-0-updated)" builds. This is one of em, you can google the term yourself for more info on that topic.

edit: if you are just looking for mounted druid builds overall I can recommend to have a look at my papa smurf build for some inspiration.

This is exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks! This is awesome!


How far do you want to go with arcane casting? It's going to be a problem getting your casting stat up to the point where you can actually use your slots. You'll need a +4 int headband if you decide to go Wiz 1/AH 10.

Not far, I just want to get what I need to meet the requirement of Arcane Hierophant. I wear amor, and only have 12 int, so its basically just means to and end.


Not anymore. In the OP's other thread he mentioned that he ended up going human.

Indeed. I switched to get the extra feat, because my DM only allow one flaw.


Domain Wizard is the perfect example of UA cheese

Could you elaborate why its cheesy? Maybe I'm slow, but I don't see it.


Ok, thanks so much for all your comments. I'm going to be looking into all of them.

At the moment, I'm considering going specialist Conjurer variant. That way I get Augment Summoning for free, and that thus frees up two feats at level 1. That seems to be quite a nice thing.. especially since I want to have my animal companion be my familiar later on. (and hopefully also special mount!) Im considering going something like this:

Level 1: Druid
Level 2: Druid
Level 3: Druid
Level 4: Conjurer
Level 5: Druid
Level 6: Druid
Level 7: Conjurer
Level 8: Conjurer
Level 9: Arcane Hierophant
Level 10: Arcane Hierophant

How does this sound? I'm kind of lette shapeshifting go a bit, but that was my third priority after summoning and animal companion respectfully, so I'm ok with that - even though it might not be the most optimized route...

[el minster]

A tier 1 class gets a stright improvement.

[Gruftzwerg]

...
How does this sound? I'm kind of lette shapeshifting go a bit, but that was my third priority after summoning and animal companion respectfully, so I'm ok with that - even though it might not be the most optimized route...

Looks nice. And remember, while most form post regard around optimizing dmg/overall power, optimizing for fun is what you mostly do when it comes to real PC build at most tables.^^

If you like animal companions, you should have a look at the beastmaster prc. A single lvl dip will give you another strong animal companion.

[liquidformat]

Wizard is probably not a bad choice, but some people use Druid 3/Bard 2/Green Whisperer 2/Arcane Hierophant X. .

So as a side note Green Whisperer doesn't actually require any levels of bard to enter so Druid 5/Green Whisperer 4/Arcane Hierophant X is completely valid with Greensinger Initiate feat. However, optimal entry is Druid 4/Bard 1/Green Whisperer 3/Arcane Hierophant X, that maximizes your benefits from bard and Green Whisperer since Bard 2 doesn't give you anything. Also finishing your build off with the last two levels of Green Whisperer is quite nice and will keep DMs from being grumpy with you dipping. Alternatively a Sublime Chord (CA) dip at level 10 is quite powerful for this build, I am also a big fan of fishing things off with a dip in Fleshwarper though that is a rather goofy dip it can work well thematically for House Vadalis and I have done it before.

[Max Caysey]

Ok, so I've hit a snag...

The build, so far, looks like this:

Level 1 Druid
Level 2 Druid
Level 3 Druid
Level 4 Conjurer
Level 5 Druid
Level 6 Druid
Level 7 Conjurer
Level 8 Conjurer
Level 9 Arcane Hierophant
Level 10 Arcane Hierophant
Level 11 Sentinel
Level 12 Sentinel
Level 13 Sentinel
Level 14 Sentinel
Level 15 Sentinel
Level 16 Arcane Hierophant
Level 17 Arcane Hierophant
Level 18 Arcane Hierophant
Level 19 Arcane Hierophant
Level 20 Arcane Hierophant

That would yield an animal companion which counted as:
Animal Companion: 17
Familiar: 15
Special Mount: 15

For a total of +18 HD, +20 Natural Armor, +9 Str/ 5 Dex, and a bunch of special abilities (assuming all the correct feats are taken). Pretty darn impressive! However, there are two major problems. 1) The build is only divine CL 12. This is a huge problem. Spellcasting is after-all my primary focus as a summoner! 2) It only counts as a level 12 for Wildshape - A far lesser problem than the lack of spells known, granted, but still fairly bothersome!

So, are there any ways of regaining or offsetting the loss of divine caster levels and/ or Wildshape in this build?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Max Caysey
So, are there any ways of regaining or offsetting the loss of divine caster levels and/ or Wildshape in this build?

Any chance of convincing your DM to allow the Shaping Focus feat that I suggested?

[Zanos]

The practiced spellcaster feat will add up to +4 to the CL of one class, up to your HD.

[liquidformat]

Where does Sentinel come from I am unfamiliar with it?

Beyond that you might have some conflicts with your companion's int score since mount and familiar both call out bonuses at different speeds. As you stated your primary focus is summoning and secondary is animal companion as such I would look at changing your classes to reflect that, the build you have has made animal companion the primary focus and summoning a far second...

[Max Caysey]

Where does Sentinel come from I am unfamiliar with it?
The Sentinel is one of the "other alignment" Paladins from Dragon #310!


Beyond that you might have some conflicts with your companion's int score since mount and familiar both call out bonuses at different speeds. As you stated your primary focus is summoning and secondary is animal companion as such I would look at changing your classes to reflect that, the build you have has made animal companion the primary focus and summoning a far second...

Indeed... I realized that and I'm basically rectifying that - because as you've said the last build I posted was surely focused at companion and not summoning. And while I want as capable an animal companion as possible it, its not going to be my main focus, nor my main way of dealing with threats, and it can't be directly debilitating to my spellcasting.

So I'm dropping Sentinal and basically all dropping the idea of having my companion be special mount. I'm still contemplating going one level of Conjurer since that gives me Augmented Summoning for free, thus freeing up two feats which I can use on other things at level 1, but so far I have only found 1 feat - Natural Bond - that I want. So, I'm very unsure of how to build this char. But as of now the build is:

Level 1 Druid
Level 2 Druid
Level 3 Druid
Level 4 Conjurer
Level 5 Druid
Level 6 Druid
.
.
.
Level 20 Druid

My feat load-out is currently:

Level 1: Greenbound Summoning, Exalted Companion and Natural Bond
Level 3: ?

I'm planning taking Initiate of Nature at level 6 and Natural Spell at level 9. Besides that, I'm clueless... Any suggestions at this point is most welcome!

[liquidformat]

Well either way trading your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt (I believe that is from CM) is a great idea.

Here is Egg's guide to being everything (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aS_v_2E-zv0RHbGq7r62o9IyN0UONRHMODF9LrZBbio/edit#) for feat choices, pretty nice reference guide.

[Asmotherion]

So, I have more or less build my druid for an upcoming campaign. But I'm considering going Arcane Hierophant later, so I can have my animal companion be my familiar as well.

1) What class/ build are good in combination with Druid? Initially I was just thinking of going wizard, because of the wide spell selection, but there might be better options that I don't know of. (We can use all official, except Eberron. I'm playing a human druid, level 4.)

2) If I choose Leadership as a feat, can I then have my animal companion as Cohord? And if so, does it gain class levels?

3) Is there anyway for a druid to get his animal companion as special mount?


Cheers!

You can generally never find something better than a Wizard, unless you intend to become a Bard to go for Sublime Chord and break all game balance.

[Rebel7284]

You can generally never find something better than a Wizard, unless you intend to become a Bard to go for Sublime Chord and break all game balance.

I am deeply confused why Sublime Chord breaks the game more with the handful of spells it can cast spontaneously than a wizard would.

[liquidformat]

I am deeply confused why Sublime Chord breaks the game more with the handful of spells it can cast spontaneously than a wizard would.

It doesn't, it just single boosts bard from tier 3 to high end of tier 2. I suppose you could say it 'breaks the game' in that it lets bard break out into a full caster?

[Max Caysey]

A quick update!

My DM rescinded his initial decision to let get the Greenbound Summoning feat... So thanks for all the help, even though some of it might have been in vain!


So, now I am quite unsure of what to play. Currently I'm thinking übermount/ companion build.

A question in that regard: Can I have my animal companion/familiar/special mount be my cohort? And if so, does it receive class levels? Or simply, how do I give it class levels?

Cheers!

[Asmotherion]

It doesn't, it just single boosts bard from tier 3 to high end of tier 2. I suppose you could say it 'breaks the game' in that it lets bard break out into a full caster?

Nah, it's the early entry tricks and what you can build with it. Perhaps I should have included Ur-Priest for clarification?

The Build can compete with an Optimised Incantatrix/Mage of the Arcane Order on equal footing, and that speaks for itself.


A quick update!

My DM rescinded his initial decision to let get the Greenbound Summoning feat... So thanks for all the help, even though some of it might have been in vain!


So, now I am quite unsure of what to play. Currently I'm thinking übermount/ companion build.

A question in that regard: Can I have my animal companion/familiar/special mount be my cohort? And if so, does it receive class levels? Or simply, how do I give it class levels?

Cheers!

For a Beast to take Class levels it needs to be Awakened, and an Awakened Beast cannot be an Animal companion. I'd Suggest using a different Awakened Beast as a Cohort, and try to have some buff spells on your Animal Companion instead.

[Max Caysey]

Nah, it's the early entry tricks and what you can build with it. Perhaps I should have included Ur-Priest for clarification?

The Build can compete with an Optimised Incantatrix/Mage of the Arcane Order on equal footing, and that speaks for itself.



For a Beast to take Class levels it needs to be Awakened, and an Awakened Beast cannot be an Animal companion. I'd Suggest using a different Awakened Beast as a Cohort, and try to have some buff spells on your Animal Companion instead.

Is this because the option, needs DM aproaval? Thus not possible by Raw? Because it would seem that on page 199-200 under the section of Special Cohorts in the DMG, specifically talks about this... Namely having a non humanoid race be a cohort... On page 200 it talks about having that cohort be special mount. It doesn't say that is can't have class levels, it just mentiones that all of these things adds to the effective level, thus requirering a higher level paladin for it to work... so what am I missing - besides DM approaval?

This thing is that my übermount would have int 13, before becoming a cohort, thus not falling under the category on page 200 were it says a cohort mount cant be attracted with an intelligence of less than 4. I'm essentially just attracting - or designating - the animal (at this point magical beast) which I already have as my mount/familar/companion. I assume that as long as you calculate the racial + bonus HD + templates as levels, and if you are high enough level yourself you can indeed add class levels - at least I can't find any information that specifically says a non humanoid cohort wouldn't follow the normal rules and thus can't take class levels. It actually seems to indicate that they indeed will... mentioning how "thats all there is to it" as if to say its just like a normal cohort, just higher level and a different race.

So what am I missing?

Cheers!

[Asmotherion]

Is this because the option, needs DM aproaval? Thus not possible by Raw? Because it would seem that on page 199-200 under the section of Special Cohorts in the DMG, specifically talks about this... Namely having a non humanoid race be a cohort... On page 200 it talks about having that cohort be special mount. It doesn't say that is can't have class levels, it just mentiones that all of these things adds to the effective level, thus requirering a higher level paladin for it to work... so what am I missing - besides DM approaval?

This thing is that my übermount would have int 13, before becoming a cohort, thus not falling under the category on page 200 were it says a cohort mount cant be attracted with an intelligence of less than 4. I'm essentially just attracting - or designating - the animal (at this point magical beast) which I already have as my mount/familar/companion. I assume that as long as you calculate the racial + bonus HD + templates as levels, and if you are high enough level yourself you can indeed add class levels - at least I can't find any information that specifically says a non humanoid cohort wouldn't follow the normal rules and thus can't take class levels. It actually seems to indicate that they indeed will... mentioning how "thats all there is to it" as if to say its just like a normal cohort, just higher level and a different race.

So what am I missing?

Cheers!

Not sure what you mean. The reason is that the ability "animal companion" specifically says that your animal companion cannot be an awakened animal, and if it becomes one it ceases to be your animal companion.

[Max Caysey]

Not sure what you mean. The reason is that the ability "animal companion" specifically says that your animal companion cannot be an awakened animal, and if it becomes one it ceases to be your animal companion.

But I dont want it to be awakened... I want it to be a cohord according to the rules in DMG... and that should be possible... By those rules.

[ThanatosZero]

Alternatively, you can forego your physical stats by starting as a middle aged human (+1 to all mental stats and -1 to all physical stats respectively), your wild shaping will take care of physical stats.

By 32pb you can gain these stats right of the bat.

Str: 11 -> 10
Dex: 11 -> 10
Con: 11 -> 10
Int: 14 -> 15
Wis: 18 -> 19
Cha: 9 -> 10

As for qualifying for arcane hierophant, there is a special metamagic feat from dragon#325, called Alternative Source Spell. If you have both arcane and divine spellcasting, you can alter the nature of the spell to a different spell at the cost of -1 CL. You also need to be able to prepare spells, for to make it to work.

For example: A Druid 9/Wizard 1 can prepare Blizzard a 5th level divine spell as a 5th level arcane spell, but with a CL of 8, instead of 9.
A Wizard 5/ Druid 5 can cast Fireball as a Divine Spell with a CL of 4 and Call Lightning as a Arcane Spell with a CL of 4.

As mentioned, Practiced Spellcaster can migate the CL loss.
To note: Changing divine spells into arcane spells is useful against Elder Evils, which are immune against divine spells.

Your level build could look like this
Druid 9/Wizard 1/Arcane Hierophant 10

Or if the DM doesn't approve, you still need to hit the prerequisites as normal
Druid 4/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 3

With this build you gain access to 9th level druid spells with 8th level wizard spells, with 12 BAB (13 BAB with UA Fractional Rules). Also reading the Natural Spell feat again, the only thing what the feat doesn't allow is the use of magic items, while in wildshape.

If you are later interrested into a gish with 16 BAB and double 9th spellcasting on both arcane and divine, I can give you a working fochlucian lyrist build.

[Gruftzwerg]

Alternatively, you can forego your physical stats by starting as a middle aged human (+1 to all mental stats and -1 to all physical stats respectively), your wild shaping will take care of physical stats.


IIRC you still suffer from physical aging penalties while wildshaping. Ageing effects are permanant effects and the effect doesn't vanish because you used wild shape.

[NigelWalmsley]

Wild Shape replaces your ability scores. Anything that modified your ability scores is ignored, and you get the scores of the new form. Wild Shape + Aging is free stats.

[Gruftzwerg]

Wild Shape replaces your ability scores. Anything that modified your ability scores is ignored, and you get the scores of the new form. Wild Shape + Aging is free stats.

ehm, no! Any buff or debuff effect that where on you (before you wild shaped) are still full in effect. Or are you saying that druids can't prebuff anymore before wild shaping?

If effects from spells stay and still apply their effect on your new form, than I would assume that "Aging Effects (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#tableAgingEffects)" also are still there and affect your new form.

Why should aging effects be handled other than any other effects? Why should it sole be excluded?
I don't see any rule that would ignore all modifiers to your (physical) ability scores. If you have one and can point me to I would be happy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

But I dont want it to be awakened... I want it to be a cohord according to the rules in DMG... and that should be possible... By those rules.

To be clear, a familiar or special mount may be able to take class levels thanks to its >3 int score. An animal companion, barring special circumstances, cannot because animals have animal intelligence.

The special mount is clearly called out as being an option for a cohort but there is no such call out for familars.

The interaction between the familiar and cohort rules would get weird fast so I wouldn't expect that to get past your GM unless he's pretty laid back.

[ThanatosZero]

Why should aging effects be handled other than any other effects? Why should it sole be excluded?
I don't see any rule that would ignore all modifiers to your (physical) ability scores. If you have one and can point me to I would be happy.

Aging is a vital statistic, the same as height and weight. Also if it was a buff and debuff it wouldn't result a character gaining more skillpoints and it would be able to be dispelled.
It only affects the base values of the creature. If anything, it is an increment/reduction to the base values, exactly like the +1 to your abilities you get each 4 levels.

[Gruftzwerg]

Aging is a vital statistic, the same as height and weight. Also if it was a buff and debuff it wouldn't result a character gaining more skillpoints and it would be able to be dispelled.
It only affects the base values of the creature. If anything, it is an increment/reduction to the base values, exactly like the +1 to your abilities you get each 4 levels.

Age =! Aging Effects

"Age" is the vital statistic while "Aging Effects" are "Effects".
Two different term, so don't get confused.

And I stay by my argument:
Aging Effects stay like any other effect stays after wild shaping. Further your "Age" & "Race" statistics doesn't change when you wild shape, thus they are in full effect.

[ThanatosZero]

Age =! Aging Effects

"Age" is the vital statistic while "Aging Effects" are "Effects".
Two different term, so don't get confused.

And I stay by my argument:
Aging Effects stay like any other effect stays after wild shaping. Further your "Age" & "Race" statistics doesn't change when you wild shape, thus they are in full effect.
By RAW Wildshape itself functions like the Alternate Form ability.

The Alternate Form ability specifies that you gain the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of the new form, but retain the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of the original form. The changed physical ability score modifiers are applied in all appropriate areas with one exception: you retain the hit points of the original form despite any change to the Constitution.

Thus aging effects do not affect the form, but polymorphing into a elderly man does.

[Zanos]

Reincarnate/Last Breath should let you have your aging bonuses without having to eat your prunes.

[Gruftzwerg]

By RAW Wildshape itself functions like the Alternate Form ability.

The Alternate Form ability specifies that you gain the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of the new form, but retain the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of the original form. The changed physical ability score modifiers are applied in all appropriate areas with one exception: you retain the hit points of the original form despite any change to the Constitution.

Thus aging effects do not affect the form, but polymorphing into a elderly man does.

Age Effects come from your age and race, both things untouched by wild shape and alternate form. Those two only change your "form," not your "race" nor your "age".

Thus, how old your new form appears (e.g. polymorphing into a elder man) doesn't change if you have age effects or not, since your race and your age (and thus eventual Age Effects) doesn't change with the transformation.

[ThanatosZero]

Age Effects come from your age and race, both things untouched by wild shape and alternate form. Those two only change your "form," not your "race" nor your "age".

Thus, how old your new form appears (e.g. polymorphing into a elder man) doesn't change if you have age effects or not, since your race and your age (and thus eventual Age Effects) doesn't change with the transformation.

By that very logic, even the racial modifiers of the original race would still apply in the new form.
It is the opposite of what wildshape is supposed to do.

But to play Devil's Advocate. Do you want a venerable wizard years before they kick their bucket, being capable to shapeshift into a gold dragon with the great wyrm statistics, only because of their age?
If you say that a human doesn't qualify, a kobold has all dragon age categories.

Edit: Another example.
A great wyrm kobold wizard casts polymorph to change into a gold dragon wyrmling, but turns into a gold dragon great wyrm due the original age and age category of the user.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The effects of aging aren't bonuses and penalties. They're explicitly simple changes to the base stat.


With age, a character’s physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase (see Table: Aging Effects). The effects of each aging step are cumulative. However, none of a character’s ability scores can be reduced below 1 in this way.

"Decrease" and "increase." No mention of bonuses and penalties or modifiers.

[Gruftzwerg]

By that very logic, even the racial modifiers of the original race would still apply in the new form.
It is the opposite of what wildshape is supposed to do.
Those are thing explicitly mentioned that they are changes by wild shape and alternate form. Race and age are not mentioned/changed. Can you point me to a rule that says that wild shape changes your race and age?
I guess not, so you have to deal with the "Aging Effects" according to your "Age" and "Race".


But to play Devil's Advocate. Do you want a venerable wizard years before they kick their bucket, being capable to shapeshift into a gold dragon with the great wyrm statistics, only because of their age?
If you say that a human doesn't qualify, a kobold has all dragon age categories.

Edit: Another example.
A great wyrm kobold wizard casts polymorph to change into a gold dragon wyrmling, but turns into a gold dragon great wyrm due the original age and age category of the user.
Since when is age a determining factor for any form changing ability? These abilities mostly scale with your clvl (or have a set one) and their legal selection is limited by HD (thus a Great Wyrm is out of the limit). And what you get and what not is determined by the form changing ability. And all those ability let "effects" that where already on you still work as the moment before you changed form.
"Aging Effect" is an ongoing "effect" once you have the required age. It only asks for your race and if you have passed certain age thresholds for that race. And those two things aren't change by Wild Shape, Alternate Form,... .
So no, not even a great wyrm kobold wizard could pull that off.



The effects of aging aren't bonuses and penalties. They're explicitly simple changes to the base stat.



"Decrease" and "increase." No mention of bonuses and penalties or modifiers.
Doesn't change that it is an ongoing "effect". The "increasing and decreasing" is still related from your race and age.
You still have passed the threshold for your race to have aging effect, nothing has changed. Your new form doesn't need to represent your real age (nor your race^^) visually. But your stats are still fully affected by the effects.


__________________

don't get me wrong mates. I'm a big theoretical optimization fan myself. But as far as I see it, this is a dead end by RAW.

[ThanatosZero]

Those are thing explicitly mentioned that they are changes by wild shape and alternate form. Race and age are not mentioned/changed. Can you point me to a rule that says that wild shape changes your race and age?
I guess not, so you have to deal with the "Aging Effects" according to your "Age" and "Race".
Wildshape functions exactly like Alternate Form.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm

You do not turn to a different species, thus you do not gain new types and subtypes, but retain those from the original form.

But as it explicitely states: The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

And here you have your age, as it isn't included within the exceptions of Alternate Form.
You keep your HP as they are and are not affected by the new form.


Since when is age a determining factor for any form changing ability? These abilities mostly scale with your clvl (or have a set one) and their legal selection is limited by HD (thus a Great Wyrm is out of the limit). And what you get and what not is determined by the form changing ability. And all those ability let "effects" that where already on you still work as the moment before you changed form.
"Aging Effect" is an ongoing "effect" once you have the required age. It only asks for your race and if you have passed certain age thresholds for that race. And those two things aren't change by Wild Shape, Alternate Form,... .
So no, not even a great wyrm kobold wizard could pull that off.
Because if aging affects the new form, thus it should affect such forms as well realistically speaking. Dragons grow more powerful as they age. And unlike Alternate Form, Polymorph and Shapechange changes for as long as you are in the new form, your type and subtype of the new form.
Also, both spells refers the same about Alternate Form
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm
"The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."
However you cannot have more HD, than normal, with the following exceptions within the descriptions.

Edit: But let you ask me the following.
A. Does Wildshape/Alternate Form say, that you turn into a specific unique creature of a specific age and so on?
B. Does WS/AF say, that it alters your mental scores?
C. For example, an old druid turns into a wolf. Do the rules say, that the old druid turns into an "old wolf" and gains the wolf's str score + any values anyone would like to make an appeal that should apply? And what does WS/AF to do with those mental scores?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Doesn't change that it is an ongoing "effect". The "increasing and decreasing" is still related from your race and age.
You still have passed the threshold for your race to have aging effect, nothing has changed. Your new form doesn't need to represent your real age (nor your race^^) visually. But your stats are still fully affected by the effects.

They are not an ongoing effect. They're a series of one-time changes to the stat. Your strength is not being suppressed by old age, it's simply less than it used to be.

[Gruftzwerg]

Wildshape functions exactly like Alternate Form.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm

You do not turn to a different species, thus you do not gain new types and subtypes, but retain those from the original form.

But as it explicitely states: The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

And here you have your age, as it isn't included within the exceptions of Alternate Form.
You keep your HP as they are and are not affected by the new form.

I fail to see where the evidence is that your race or age changes, thus you are still full affected by your original forms Aging Effects.



Because if aging affects the new form, thus it should affect such forms as well realistically speaking. Dragons grow more powerful as they age. And unlike Alternate Form, Polymorph and Shapechange changes for as long as you are in the new form, your type and subtype of the new form.
Also, both spells refers the same about Alternate Form
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm
"The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."
However you cannot have more HD, than normal, with the following exceptions within the descriptions.
Neither of the abilities change your "race" or your "age"..
The text that you quoted 2 times talks about "Physical & Mental Ability Scores", not about "vital statistics" overall as you claimed. No evidence for race (!= type/subtype) or age changes. How old your target new form appears doesn't change your race nor your real age.



Edit: But let you ask me the following.
A. Does Wildshape/Alternate Form say, that you turn into a specific unique creature of a specific age and so on?
B. Does WS/AF say, that it alters your mental scores?
C. For example, an old druid turns into a wolf. Do the rules say, that the old druid turns into an "old wolf" and gains the wolf's str score + any values anyone would like to make an appeal that should apply? And what does WS/AF to do with those mental scores?

A: yes your target form (no race change)may appear of the age you like. Looking old/beautiful/fat/slim/ugly doesn't effect your stats in any way, but are well within the limits you may take as target form.
B: no.. but I fail to see how that should convince me with your position?
C: The old druid, may appear/look as wolf as he wishes as long as it's within the limit of the target form. Still no rage and age change.

---------

1.) race != form != type/subtype

2.) your "Aging Effects" are determined with a combination of your "Age" and your "Race".

3.) none of the transformation abilities/spells affect your race nor your age

I'll repeat it until you get the difference


They are not an ongoing effect. They're a series of one-time changes to the stat. Your strength is not being suppressed by old age, it's simply less than it used to be.

If that would be the chase, a change in "Age" and "Race" like with Reincarnate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) wouldn't get rid of any possible Aging Effects the character already had before the spell and he could stack Aging Effects...

But thanks because Aging Effects are ongoing effects, Reincarnate can cancel the effect since it changes "Race" and "Age". And thus the Aging Effect can't legally affect the reincarnated person anymore.

edit: typo..^^ rage > race

[Kelb_Panthera]

If that would be the chase, a change in "Age" and "Race" like with Reincarnate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) wouldn't get rid of any possible Aging Effects the character already had before the spell and he could stack Aging Effects...

But thanks because Aging Effects are ongoing effects, Reincarnate can cancel the effect since it changes "Race" and "Age". And thus the Aging Effect can't legally affect the reincarnated person anymore.

edit: typo..^^ rage > race

Reincarnate doesn't remove aging effects. As I said, they're not ongoing effects. Reincarnate simply changes your physical ability scores based on your new race. It also resets your physical age to young adult, meaning all of your abilities can and will change again when you once again reach middle age. If you are reincarnated enough times, eventually one of your physical abilities is going to hit zero.

Race is a completely separate adjustment to abilities.

[Gruftzwerg]

Reincarnate doesn't remove aging effects. As I said, they're not ongoing effects. Reincarnate simply changes your physical ability scores based on your new race. It also resets your physical age to young adult, meaning all of your abilities can and will change again when you once again reach middle age. If you are reincarnated enough times, eventually one of your physical abilities is going to hit zero.

Race is a completely separate adjustment to abilities.

I'm sry but that doesn't make any sense. Why should a change in "race" and "age" not change your Aging Effect accordingly. Let me show you how much dysfunction your assumption (A) causes while my assumption (B) solves these things without any logical problems.

1. Reincarnate with Aging Effects

A) you have a new young adult body that keeps his former Aging Effects and can stack new ontop for his new body an age. (btw, they can only drop to 1 not 0 ... maybe reread the rules before posting and don't make assumptions based sole on memory).

B) you incarnate into a new young adult body (for your possibly new race) and thus aren't valid anymore for any aging effect.

2. BOVD allows Bestow Curse as one options to choose from, to age your target up to the next age category. Remove Curse would cancel the effect of the curse (change in age).

A) The one time Aging Effect already happened and becoming younger doesn't get rid of them. It's even worse, you can get it now for a 2nd time again..

B) The ongoing Aging Effect can't legally target you anymore and vanished once Remove Curse sets you back to your real age.

___

Aging Effects are ongoing effects, otherwise you only get logical dysfunctions. Since the rules iirc doesn't specific either chase, I would go for the option that causes lesser problems.. which is (B).