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The Giant
2006-02-20, 08:03 AM
New comic is up. Double-sized goodies.

Someone check the time to see how long it will take for the cryptogram masters to get this one cracked...

soozenw
2006-02-20, 08:07 AM
argh! someone work fast on cracking that! i have to go to work! ??? *has no talent at cryptograms*

great strip, rich. and that is definately a climax. woo!

Korppis
2006-02-20, 08:08 AM
Oh my... lots of Haley's gibberish and english is my third language... counting on you, guys :P

Capfalcon
2006-02-20, 08:10 AM
Great comic as ususal Giant!

Woot first page!

(Gah! I can't do cryptograms to save my life!)

Ladoran
2006-02-20, 08:12 AM
Awesome strip (just like the last many strips ... ah ok all the strips)! And hooray for the heroes being found not guilty :). The only downside is that now I have to wait until wednesday to find out if Miko kills Belkar or if she will be stopped in time. Kind of cool with the blue eyes she has in the second to last panel. She seems a tad... annoyed :D.

And, indeed someone crack the cryptogram fast. I wan't to know what Haley is saying but I don't want to work for it.

Belmorn
2006-02-20, 08:12 AM
now that is a climax

danb
2006-02-20, 08:12 AM
Now that's what I call a climax.

Such an excellent strip it managed to drag me out of perpetual lurker mode. :)

codemartin
2006-02-20, 08:12 AM
hey long time lurker first time poster and i must say,

Gret comic Gaint I liked the whole climax ending, and somebody please translate what Haley said.

Woot first page.

Chlodwig
2006-02-20, 08:13 AM
Hmm,

Different from what I expected.

Both the Miko/Belkar part and the outcome of the trial.

Can somebody use a timemachine to get the wednesday strip right now? :)

Allie
2006-02-20, 08:13 AM
OMG! :o :o :o :o
If that bitch will kill Belkar I... I... :'(

Charity322
2006-02-20, 08:15 AM
I guess the Cryptogram experts are never up early. ;D

And I'm up late must go to bed! Mind you I did make the first page. ;)

Now that was a cool strip!

Sc00by
2006-02-20, 08:17 AM
...
your awesomeness never fails to surprise me.

I'm off to see if I can decrypt the Hayley ;)

The Doctor
2006-02-20, 08:17 AM
Can somebody use a timemachine to get the wednesday strip right now? :)

Yes. Unfortunately, the laws of Rassilon prevent me from telling you.

Kanashimi
2006-02-20, 08:17 AM
AWESOME!!!!

This really delivered for me! Just the thing after a weekend cliffhanger

Yay Giant!!! ;D ;D ;D

lillianna
2006-02-20, 08:18 AM
No!! Belkar!!! Great comic!!! long time lurker, first time poster

Mizak
2006-02-20, 08:18 AM
Wow....

Thats a climax alright...

Can Mr. Scruffy Read Common?

Hehe

Belial_the_Leveler
2006-02-20, 08:19 AM
Great strip Giant! Hope something bad happens to Miko-like realising Belkar let her live after trying to kill him.

Arkon
2006-02-20, 08:20 AM
Not speculating about what is going to happen next is really hard!

I had expected them to crash in at the time of the verdict, but just after is ofcourse also very very interesting!

Great Work! Congratulations!

Freelance Henchman
2006-02-20, 08:20 AM
Great comic!


FINISH HIM!!!

MIKO WINS
-
FATALITY!



(Or not?)

Cradok
2006-02-20, 08:21 AM
Well, 'Fx! B'n fxt XO' translates easily to 'No! I'm not OK', so someone with more time on their hands can use that as a starting point to translate. :)

Baldknight
2006-02-20, 08:23 AM
Now that's a dramatic climax!

Fantastic stuff, Miko looks like she has totally lost it.

Poor Belkar.

novaquinn
2006-02-20, 08:25 AM
I'm working on that translation right now. Hang on everybody!

Ebon_Drake
2006-02-20, 08:25 AM
That was awesome. I was thinking exactly the same as Elan: that it was rather anticlimactic, but then BAM! From 0 to awesome in the blink of an eye. Actually, it wasn't at 0, the piece of paper and "Mr scruffy can shove it..." bits alone would have made it a good strip, but damn, what a finale. Welll played, sir :).


*waits patiently for cryptogam thread to get into action*

Reaver225
2006-02-20, 08:30 AM
Fricken.
Cool.
Fricken.
Cool

CLIMAX!

Giant, that was totally worth the weekend wait.

novaquinn
2006-02-20, 08:33 AM
Finished translations, I only numbered the panels in which Haley speaks to make this quicker...more to come as I copy and crack the rest.

Panel 1: "What?"

Panel 2: "No, wait, that verdict doesn't make sense. Laws don't work that way."
**I think there's a typo in the original script here, where the Giant used a Q to start the second sentence...Daws doesn't fit. :)**

Panel 3: "I've seen enough of my Theives' Guild friends sent to prison to know that this should have been a conviction."

Panel 4: "But...but it doesn't make any sense!"

Panel 5: "No! I'm not OK, this whole thing made NO SENSE!"
**Small typo in the above panel: The "t" in the word "not" is actually a "t"**

Panel 6: "We WERE guilty! It should have been a guilty verdict! I can understand if they wanted to reduce the sentence due to the circumstances, but it should still have been a guilty verdict."

**The rest is borrowed from Nightstallion, who got the rest done before I did.**

Panel 7: "Oh, never mind. I don't know why I'm bothering."

Panel 8: "Wait--Elan, what did you just say?"

Panel 9: "Oh my gods, Elan! That's it! Elan, you're a genius!"

Alfryd
2006-02-20, 08:34 AM
New comic is up. Double-sized goodies.
E-excellent. And most interesting. This should generate no end of delicious controversy. Ah, division, emnity, discord, vendetta, the opening and re-salting of old-wounds... it's times like these I live for. Let the carnage begin!

Ooh- ooh- Belkar is defenceless and dying! This is Miko's test of alignment, ain't it?

Ashbless
2006-02-20, 08:39 AM
Maybe Miko will relent and use her potion of healing that she has stashed away for moments like this...

wait a mo, didn't some halfling make off with it..? ;D

Single Shot Zombie
2006-02-20, 08:41 AM
Wow. Just........wow.

It's like, the OotS starts rejoicing abotu their release, and Elan starts talking about stuff being anticlimatic, when BOOM! In comes Miko and Belkar.

You all could probably guess that that was gonna happen, right? And then Elan clinches it, without even registering that Belkar's about to die. Boy, is he slow, or what?

He also did something like that in an earlier comic; now which one was it, which one was........aha!

Hollywood, eat your heart out........

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=119

(Btw, about those new eyes that you've drawn for the Belkster, Giant. What's he doing - squinting?)

Beelzebub1111
2006-02-20, 08:47 AM
10 bucks says Miko will get her paladin powers revoked at the last second

Also the hilt of roy's sword seems to be blue, not green as it should be...as his name is greenhilt not bluehilt

Reaver225
2006-02-20, 08:49 AM
Does the line across the eyes mean negative hp or something? I mean, is he knocked out or what?

Alfryd
2006-02-20, 08:50 AM
10 bucks says Miko will get her paladin powers revoked at the last second...
That may not save Belkar, but I must confess a Fall is a distinct possibility.

Will the cryptographic gurus hurry up with that Haley Translation? WE HAVE CERTAIN STANDARDS HERE. :)

The_Cardinal
2006-02-20, 08:50 AM
The Voice of Mod: One, no spoilers in the main discussion thread. Take it outside. And two, no putting like 37 line breaks in your post to "hide" the spoiler that you shouldn't have posted. Thanks.

Nightstallion
2006-02-20, 08:53 AM
Finished translations, I only numbered the panels in which Haley speaks to make this quicker...more to come as I copy and crack the rest.

Panel 1: "What?"

Panel 2: "No, wait, that verdict doesn't make sense. Laws don't work that way."
**I think there's a typo in the original script here, where the Giant used a Q to start the second sentence...Daws doesn't fit. :)**

Panel 3: "I've seen enough of my Theives' Guild friends sent to prison to know that this should have been a conviction."

Panel 4: "But...but it doesn't make any sense!"

Panel 5: "No! I'm not OK, this whole thing made NO SENSE!"
**Small typo in the above panel: The "t" in the word "not" is actually a "t"**

Panel 6: "

I'm just going to post the rest now. ;)

"We WERE guilty! It should have been a guilty verdict! I can understand if they wanted to reduce the sentence due to the circumstances, but it should have still been a guilty verdict."

"Oh, never mind. I don't know why I'm bothering."

"Wait--Elan, what did you just say?"

"Oh my gods, Elan! That's it! Elan, you're a genius!"

Any clue which remark of Elan's she's referring to? I guess she means "but looks can be deceiving", but I'm not sure what relevance she thinks this has...

Yortsed
2006-02-20, 08:59 AM
chuckle

Elan a genius... ;D

man, next time i look first for the posts before i decrypt this by myself.

on second thougt maybe not. it's kinda fun, with english beeing my second language and all...

Rusty
2006-02-20, 08:59 AM
Just for the sake of it all being on one page and in order, and for the trouble of my actually translating it but you guys beating me to it...here's mine

"What?"

"No, wait, that verdict doesn't make sense. Laws don't work that way." (This doesn't make sense. Either Q is a typo, or I haven't translated this properly? But I don't personally see what else it could all be.)

"I've seen enough of my Thieves' Guild friends sent to prison to know that this should have been a conviction."

"But...but it doesn't make any sense!"

"No! I'm not OK, this whole trial made NO SENSE!"

"We WERE guilty! It should have been a guilty verdict! I can understand if they wanted to reduce the sentence due to the circumstances, but it should have still been a guilty verdict."

"Oh, never mind, I don't know why I'm bothering."

"Wait - Elan, what did you just say?"

"Oh my gods, Elan! That's it! Elan, you're a genius!"

The Doctor
2006-02-20, 09:00 AM
Not sure if I shoudl post this here, but there,
Haley's words:

1 : No, wait, that verdict doesn't make sense.

2 : Laws don't work that way.

3 : I've seen enough of my Thieves' Guild friends sent to prison to know that this should have been a conviction.

4 : But... but it doesn't make any sense!

5 : No! I'm not OK, that whole trial made NO SENSE!
WE WERE guilty! It should have been a guilty verdict. I can understand if they wanted to reduce the sentence due to the circumstances , but it should have still been a quitly verdict.

6 : Oh, never mind, I don't know why I'm bothering.

7 ; Wait - Elan, what did you just say?

8 ; Oh my gods, Elan! That's it! Elan, You're' a genius.

... not sure though WHAT was so genius... I have to ponder that a bit more (too much time in a TARDIS weakens the brains - need to go out more)

Edit: ok, so several minutes late... I really have to fix that time-expolarotar...

Ravenlord
2006-02-20, 09:00 AM
Does the line across the eyes mean negative hp or something? I mean, is he knocked out or what?


Judging by the fact Miko's sword went through him, I guess he should be in negative HP actually.

Blaznak
2006-02-20, 09:02 AM
Wheeee!!!! Broken Glass is COOL!

Lightman
2006-02-20, 09:05 AM
New comic is up. Double-sized goodies.

Someone check the time to see how long it will take for the cryptogram masters to get this one cracked...
BEST. COMIC. EVER.

Zander
2006-02-20, 09:06 AM
... not sure though WHAT was so genius...


"Looks can be deceiving."

novaquinn
2006-02-20, 09:08 AM
Well, now that I'm done translating, I can take the proper time to say, "Great comic, Giant!" I'm glad to finally be on the forum.

team56th
2006-02-20, 09:09 AM
Hollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll ly s___! Thank you Rich!
OOTS is now innocent, so Belkar is innocent.
Miko was trying to kill Belkar, which is innocent.
Now Miko is totally screwed. Sweeeeeet...

Ayfen
2006-02-20, 09:10 AM
Wow! :o

doesn't need anymore than that, i feel that one word sums up the strip nicely. though the "shocked" smiley sums it up well too.. :)

Vengeful_Hand
2006-02-20, 09:12 AM
HOLY cow!
That was absolutely heartstopping. Wrath from above! Elan, you're so funny. I wonder what Lord Shojo/Mr. Scruffy were going to talk to Roy about. I guess now we'll never know.

You know, I walways wanted to come crashing through a huge window in the middle of a dramatic battle.

eof
2006-02-20, 09:13 AM
Translated it. Beaten by a few minutes. Of course.

Possible spoiler: Here's something to paste into your browser URL bar. If you don't want to know the translation, don't copy and paste it.

javascript:var from = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVW XYZ"; var to = "vigycn*bfphu*mkrdjsaetlo*wVIGYCN*BFPHU*MKRLJSAETL O*W"; var mes = prompt("Enter text to decode:", "Zktv? Fx, ztbv, vktv aupqbev qxusf'v ntou sufsu. Qtzs qxf'v zxpo vktv ztd. B'au suuf ufxlck xi nd Vkbuaus' Clbwq ipbufqs sufv vx jpbsxf vx ofxz vktv vkbs skxlwq ktau huuf t exfabevbxf. Hlv... hlv bv qxusf'v ntou tfd sufsu! Fx! B'n fxt XO, vkbs zkxwu vpbtw ntqu FX SUFSU! Zu ZUPU clbwvd! Bv skxlwq ktau huuf t clbwvd aupqbev! B etf lfqupsvtfq bi vkud ztfvuq vx puqleu vku sufvufeu qlu vx vku ebpelnsvtfeus, hlv bv skxlwq ktau svbww huuf t clbwvd aupqbev. Xk, fuaup nbfq, B qxf'v ofxz zkd B'n hxvkupbfc. Ztbv--Uwtf, zktv qbq dxl rlsv std? Xk nd cxqs, Uwtf! Vktv's bv! Uwtf, dxl'pu t cufbls!"); var mes = (mes == null ? "" : mes); var res=""; for(var i = 0; i < mes.length; i++) {var j = from.indexOf(mes.charAt(i)); res += (j == -1 ? mes.charAt(i) : to.charAt(j)); } if (res != "") alert(res);

The Doctor
2006-02-20, 09:15 AM
Miko was trying to kill Belkar, which is innocent.
Now Miko is totally screwed. Sweeeeeet...

Well, there is the technicallity of Belkar killing a guard and smearing his bodily fluids all over the wall. On most planets, that is concidered pretty evil (though on Skaro it was merely considered impolite).

Chlodwig
2006-02-20, 09:17 AM
Hmm, as a beeing of pure Law and Good you can't lie at all? only omit facts or is even that to much? :)

So, it was strictly necessary to weaken the fabric of the universe at the time?

Because the trial was about the order doing just that?

kierthos
2006-02-20, 09:19 AM
I'm thinking that the "Looks can be deceiving" line from Elan and resulting comment from Haley means that someone in the courtroom is not who or what they appear to be.

I wonder if it would be spoiler-ish to post my thoughts on that.

Probably.

RDarken
2006-02-20, 09:20 AM
What an ending!!

Nighthawk4
2006-02-20, 09:25 AM
Another great comic. :)

It seems strange that Haley is so unhappy with being found not guilty - especially as she is CG. The trial came out with the 'right' result - why care about the Law? ???

Eldhrin
2006-02-20, 09:26 AM
Fabulous! I love the entrance of Miko and Belkar, very dramatic.

Belkar may well not die, remember that Durkon's in the room, V's also there, the OOTS have their weapons back and there are also numerous members of the Sapphire Guard and a being of pure light and justice in the room!

Oh and Mr Scruffy too.

Ravenlord
2006-02-20, 09:30 AM
Another great comic. :)

It seems strange that Haley is so unhappy with being found not guilty - especially as she is CG. The trial came out with the 'right' result - why care about the Law? ???

I guess she's worried something manipulating the trial, which would mean they are out from the frying pan into the fire. =)

Kizor
2006-02-20, 09:34 AM
I knew that my compsci education had started showing and that I had finally flipped when I had solved the cryptogram but grown tired of forming the decoded words and wrote a quick Java program to do it for me.

Naturally, that took several times longer, but that wasn't the point was it?

mack962289
2006-02-20, 09:34 AM
What a great strip. I belive that Miko will get her paladin powers removed from the Higher Being. Or so will be forced to travel with the Order of the Stick.

Kyrian
2006-02-20, 09:37 AM
That strip was awesome!!! I agree with whoever was talking about Miko stabbing Belkar, who is now innocent. That would be a plot twist right there...

Either way, today's comic rocked, and def goes into my OOTS favs folder.

Sebastian
2006-02-20, 09:38 AM
A great Elan today, that "I didn't know if Mr.scruffy could read common" alone was worth the day, and lo! there was even more.

A possible title for the last panel "birth of a blackguard" :)

Oorlof
2006-02-20, 09:38 AM
1) Cool comic, Giant. Rockness.
2) Belkar! Nooooo! :'(

Damnit Giant, he better not be permanently dead, although...given Miko's expression of pure hatred, the li'l bugger just might be getting out ahead...

McBish
2006-02-20, 09:39 AM
So does anyone else wonder how Miko got the upper hand on Belkar, last we saw he was kicking her arse.

Darius Midnite
2006-02-20, 09:41 AM
WOW :o
What a cool strip!
I haven't seen anything that good for a long time..
Worth wating a weekend for i'll say!

Ashbless
2006-02-20, 09:44 AM
So does anyone else wonder how Miko got the upper hand on Belkar, last we saw he was kicking her arse.

I'd put my vote for 'Overconfidence'

Leeroy
2006-02-20, 09:45 AM
Well, he has allready told that she has the upper hand in HtH combat And the trial's been going on for a while now, so they may have fought for a while.
Liked the panel where they entered the room through the Window. Beautiful made :D

The Doctor
2006-02-20, 09:49 AM
The trial came out with the 'right' result - why care about the Law? ???

I think that for Haley, if she is being dragged across the continent for something that she is ultimately guilty of, they better convict her for it too.
Obviously, she didn't want to be punished. But she DID think they did something wrong, and she DID expect getting a guilty. It's a principle thing.
I also think that, in a way, she is a 'bad' girl, and a thief too, and she doesn't mind flaunting it a bit.

Tyni_Tim
2006-02-20, 09:51 AM
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! WHY BELKAR?! WHY NOT... WHY BELKAR!? Nice blue eye effect too. Make them flaming next time. :P

See, that's a climax!

Sebastian
2006-02-20, 09:53 AM
Well, there is the technicallity of Belkar killing a guard and smearing his bodily fluids all over the wall. On most planets, that is concidered pretty evil (though on Skaro it was merely considered impolite).

yes, but didn't he deserve a trial for that? How can Miko be sure that he was his doing (I mean, sure we know he killed the guard (or did him? Yes, yes he did :) ) but it is Miko 100% sure?) plus now he is unconscious, surrounded by paladins, with no way to harm anyone or to escape. The law (and this time is not about being good, is about being lawfuil, the only thing Miko is good at as a paladin) ask for Belkar to have a fair process, to have a chance to defend himself, and only then be put to death, killing Belkar right there (in a courtroom, neverthless and with the judge present), right now would make Miko fall not because it is a evil act, but because it is chaotic.

Duraska
2006-02-20, 09:54 AM
Hollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll ly s___! Thank you Rich!
OOTS is now innocent, so Belkar is innocent.
Miko was trying to kill Belkar, which is innocent.
Now Miko is totally screwed. Sweeeeeet...

Yeah... Belkar's real innocent... >:(

Need I remind you of: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=265

kierthos
2006-02-20, 09:56 AM
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! WHY BELKAR?! WHY NOT... WHY BELKAR!? Nice blue eye effect too. Make them flaming next time. :P

See, that's a climax!

Yeah, I'm hoping Belkar lives. He should... there's enough healing around to bring him back, even if he might have to be hit with a Raise Dead and lose a level. (Oh, wait, that would be the barbarian level... ouch.)

Even odds that Lord Shojo demands to know what is going on or complains about the broken window.

RebelRogue
2006-02-20, 09:56 AM
A possible title for the last panel "birth of a blackguard" :)
Paladins surely will not turn to evil because of smiting an evil creature! In fact, that's pretty much their job description!

evileeyore
2006-02-20, 09:56 AM
Two things:

Firstly: WOOOOOOOOOOOT!

Kill that little psychopath! Release your anger, strike him down! Join me my love and we will rule the galaxy together... err, Ahem. The rest of you carry on then, nothing to see here...

Secondly: Haley is upset and rightly so as she understands the meta-rules the universe works under. From a purely STorytelling perspective the trial should not have ended with a "Not Guitly, okay you guys go home" unless the ST (or DM) had some plot twist in store. So when Elan starts to make mention of how wrong an ending this was, Haley figured out what was upsetting her about the whole thing. She had "felt" it but didn't understand it till Elan started to get it and point it out.

Filatus
2006-02-20, 10:00 AM
Just.... WOW. Nice climax.

Marller
2006-02-20, 10:07 AM
You can say what you want but Miko really knows how to make a dramatic entrance.

And Elan, always the professional bard: "Now see that? THAT'S a climax!" ;D

NEO|Phyte
2006-02-20, 10:14 AM
Am I the only one that noticed that this strip pulled in quite a few new posters on the first page of the thread?

Hoseki
2006-02-20, 10:19 AM
Why didn't the following people have the startled (0o) eyes?

Elan
Hinjo
V
and Mr. Jones?

Nerd-o-rama
2006-02-20, 10:30 AM
Well, Elan was hoping for a plot-twist around then, Hinjo knows Miko, V thinks he's too cool to be surprise, and Mr. Jones is too jaded and scummy.

Also, wonderful comic, some of the best non-crayon art I've seen is a while.

Also, thank you non-lazy people for the decodings.

Also, I love the total red herringness of Elan's note. And if it does turn out to be importantn later, even better.

pita
2006-02-20, 10:30 AM
A wizard is never surprised.

ravenkith
2006-02-20, 10:37 AM
...and the giant is back to the top of his game, after a 1 strip stumble.

Nice!

I especially like the stabby-the-belkar moment as the two of them come through the window.

I think that picture captures the essence of what D&D is all about: epic adventuring.

Good job Mr. Burlew!

Squall83
2006-02-20, 10:41 AM
I find it kind of funny that Haley is saying Uwtf when adressing Elan. It could mean something like "You want to f***?" ;D

Btw: GREAT comic! I kind of thought that Belkar would lose because he didn't run from Miko until she went to attack him, but somehow I thought he'd have something up his sleeve. I'd really like to know whether he had some deep and wicked plan of what to do with Miko that's about to fulfill or if he was just dumb letting her get him like that.

Brother_Hood
2006-02-20, 10:42 AM
Belkar had better not be dead. I'd hate to see the riots in here if he was. Though I'm putting my money on Miko being reined in at the last minute.

Silverblaze
2006-02-20, 10:46 AM
Wohooo... ;D Great comic as usual, Mr. B !!!

Hmmm.... Ok - So who is going to remind Haley that TOotS was dragged to Azure City, found not guilty, is free to go and is furthermore one MAJOR treasure short, which would never have happend if Miko hadn't dragged them along *g* I'd say that someone owes someone a little compensation ;)

Neopolis
2006-02-20, 10:48 AM
"Meow"
I loved that part :P He may be a smart cat, but can smart cats speak common?

Serraco
2006-02-20, 10:50 AM
Belkar had better not be dead. I'd hate to see the riots in here if he was. Though I'm putting my money on Miko being reined in at the last minute.

I have the feeling she won't be too happy about it when that happens. So many predictions, though, yet not the right post for them! I'm giddy with antici... ... pation.

Anyway, awesome job Rich. Kudos!

Marius
2006-02-20, 10:51 AM
It doesn't matter if Belkar is evil or guilty if Miko even tries to kill him while he's unconscious she will lose her powers.

Great strip btw!

Karellen
2006-02-20, 10:56 AM
As a point, OoTS doesn't exactly work by D&D physics when storytelling's concerned. Like when, saaayyy, Nale backstabbed Elan; you don't just do that much damage with a single strike. As far as I recall, generally when main characters are in negative HP, they will appear with their eyes closed - pretty much everyone else just dies outright and get x's in their eyes. Belkar's current expression hasn't been seen before, so there's no obvious indication that it means he's in negative HP; in their first fight, Roy was disarmed and immobilized by Miko and he still had enough HP to take a katana strike, despite that there's no D&D rule that would make it happen.

Anyway, this was the most likely outcome. Belkar evidently wasn't out to kill Miko, while Miko was out to kill Belkar. I would expect Belkar to get out of this somehow, as he was pretty much deliberately leading the fight to this.

luilupino
2006-02-20, 11:02 AM
Oh my God!! Excelent strip, It really worth it to wait the whole weekend

He had the chance to kill her, but he didn't use it. See, he should have done it

Can't wait until Wednesday

dragonfly83h
2006-02-20, 11:03 AM
Belkar...! No...! Nooooooo!

Awesome comic, Giant! Loved the climax.

'why do I have a piece of paper which says "meow" ' :D beautiful :D


Would have been nice to see some additional wounds on Miko, compared to #281.

To show that Belkar IS, in fact, capable of harming Miko in normal hth combat.

Okay, Miko is superior to Belkar. I get that.

Superior, but surely not impervious.

(Yes, he did torch her, but that isn't really normal hth)

[edit] clarified

LaValle
2006-02-20, 11:14 AM
Great Comic.
I really hope Belkar doesn't die, but just in case the unimaginable happens, here's a little something (please forgive the despicable quality)
http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/2413/staroots5kf.png (http://imageshack.us)

RebelRogue
2006-02-20, 11:14 AM
It doesn't matter if Belkar is evil or guilty if Miko even tries to kill him while he's unconscious she will lose her powers.
Errr, no she won't! She has every lawful and good right to kill Belkar as is! Surely no one would object if he was random goblin #2761!

(Not that I hope she does. Belkar is too funny to be killed off like that :) )

Winged One
2006-02-20, 11:23 AM
My own interpritation of events:

Haley said "Laws don't work that way!" because, being CG, she thinks the Law is all about screwing people over. She probably thinks that all laws are along the lines of "You steal food for family? Off with his head!".

Miko vs. Belkar: Gah! Can't think of a comment that isn't a predictaspoiler!

MagFlare
2006-02-20, 11:29 AM
...and the giant is back to the top of his game, after a 1 strip stumble.

Thanks for the commentary, Howard Cosell. ;)

But even if you didn't find the previous strip very good, can it be called a "stumble"? I mean, the man's telling an extended story here, and last episode at least brought us closer to today's climax.

MagFlare
2006-02-20, 11:34 AM
...and the giant is back to the top of his game, after a 1 strip stumble.

Thanks for the commentary, Howard Cosell. ;)

But even if you didn't find the previous strip very good, can it be called a "stumble"? I mean, the man's telling an extended story here, and last episode at least brought us closer to today's climax.

MagFlare
2006-02-20, 11:51 AM
...and the giant is back to the top of his game, after a 1 strip stumble.

Thanks for the commentary, Howard Cosell. ;)

But even if you didn't find the previous strip very good, can it be called a "stumble"? I mean, the man's telling an extended story here, and last episode at least brought us closer to today's climax.

Freelance Henchman
2006-02-20, 12:19 PM
Also, I really like how happy Celia looks in panel 6. She's actually fluttering around Roy with her butterfly wings :-)

NEO|Phyte
2006-02-20, 12:34 PM
As for Belkar's eyes, I think the giant was going for the half-closed look (see the last panel) (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=166) and forgot to remove the upper-half.

MagFlare
2006-02-20, 12:41 PM
...and the giant is back to the top of his game, after a 1 strip stumble.

Thanks for the commentary, Howard Cosell. ;)

But even if you didn't find the previous strip very good, can it be called a "stumble"? I mean, the man's telling an extended story here, and last episode at least brought us closer to today's climax.

Elurindel
2006-02-20, 12:43 PM
Wow, that blew my prediction away. I thought they'd be found guilty, and punished by being forced to go and protect the other gates. Hurray for Order Of The Stick!
Now I have to run over to the What Haley Said thread in order to find out what the heck she's saying. Unless the giant has something in surprise...

ShadeMoon64
2006-02-20, 12:46 PM
AWESOME!!!
I love the shattering glass effect! :o

Istielthia
2006-02-20, 12:47 PM
I loved this comic. I love how Elan is disappointed in the anti-climactic outcome, even if it means they could have been found guilty. Although, I think even a guilty verdict would have been anti-climactic. While everyone wanted the OoTS to be found not guilty, I think a lot of people expected them to be found guilty.

I loved the cryptogram in this one. It was pretty easy since Haley had so much to say. I was already translating bits as I was writing it down (yes I do them by hand.) I was wondering though, if anyone who's done the translation noticed how The Giant came to use this particular crypto - a modified version of the ubiquitous sentence "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog."

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T
t h e q u i c k b r o w n f x j m p s v

U V W X Y Z
l a z y d g


I just thought it was kind of interesting. ;D


Editted for spelling.

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-20, 12:54 PM
Paladins surely will not turn to evil because of smiting an evil creature! In fact, that's pretty much their job description!

Avoiding the Good Must Smite Evil argument, it is still obvious that Miko is in danger of Falling because by killing Belkar here she would seriously fail to uphold the Lawful principles of a paladin's duty. Unless you want to be selective in your judgment on when to apply these Lawful principles - saying that it was okay to drag OOTS all the way to Azure City and put them on trial, and then contradicting yourself by saying that Belkar, however, can be killed just so, brushing the Law aside and relying on the argument that he's, well, Evil.

TarSheva
2006-02-20, 12:54 PM
Out-Freakin-Standing!!

Loved the mass-confusion spell going on -

1) Roy's confused look at the "Not Guilty" verdict was the perfect start of an amazing sequence.
2) Hinjo's look when he's told to give them their weapons back (or maybe it was the piece of paper)
3) Hailey's ongoing dialogue about the trial not making any sense
4) Elan (as a bard) being confused because there was no climax to the story

And lastly - our confusion as to whether or not Miko is actually going to strike down a (seemingly) unarmed, and unconscious, opponent.

Great job Giant!

Toxic Avenger
2006-02-20, 12:56 PM
Woot!

It's official!

I am now a Miko convert! Go Miko! :P

Now I just need to change my sig and avatar...


Sweet comic, Giant!

theKOT
2006-02-20, 12:56 PM
Wow. This is the best comic that's been updated since I started following this strip. I figured out the cryptogram all on my own! On to the comic...

I really wonder why Haley thinks that things aren't as they seem..... hmmmmm..... Well anyway, despite being about as pro-miko as possible, I really hope that she doesn't kill Belkar. I never wanted him to die at all, and I think that his character could be used in other places..... I'd prefer Belkar dying to Miko falling, but I hope that niether happens.

So the Giant weekend cliffhangers us than has pity upon his zombies and throws us a double-length? Sweet!
Edit:



Avoiding the Good Must Smite Evil argument, it is still obvious that Miko is in danger of Falling because by killing Belkar here she would seriously fail to uphold the Lawful principles of a paladin's duty. Unless you want to be selective in your judgment on when to apply these Lawful principles - saying that it was okay to drag OOTS all the way to Azure City and put them on trial, and then contradicting yourself by saying that Belkar, however, can be killed just so, brushing the Law aside and relying on the argument that he's, well, Evil.
No, relying on the argument that he, well, killed a guard, maybe? Brushing that aside because he's, well, funny, would be much more henious.



And lastly - our confusion as to whether or not Miko is actually going to strike down a (seemingly) unarmed, and unconscious, opponent.


Paladins reserve the right to kill evil creatures at the end of a conflict which began due to evil actions on the evil creatures part, no matter what state the victim is in. In D&D land, an officer of the law has the right to be an executioner when they deem it neccisary.

Ravenlord
2006-02-20, 12:56 PM
Hum. I wonder - why does Lord Shojo and Miko have different colored lights (blue) than the OOTSers (white)?

Caledonian
2006-02-20, 12:58 PM
Perhaps the remark to which Haley refers is Elan's statement about the note.

After all, it's established that she can't speak Common (well, not normally), but she never checked to see if she could write Common properly.

Ghull_Ka
2006-02-20, 01:03 PM
GO MIKO!!

FINISH HIM!!!


Simply amazing comic! *cheers*

Albion
2006-02-20, 01:03 PM
Whoa! When I scrolled my way to the big picture(can't be difficult to know which I mean), it made me go "YIKES, HOLY &#%¤!" (Well, if I talked like that.)

Lots of Haley-gibberish. That's nice... I guess.

I was kinda expecting that Elan's vote would have consequences and be more significant. Like, everything would've gone right but Elan's vote somehow screws everything up or something. But there's nothing bad about being wrong there. Meow, muhahahah.

I hope that there won't be a same kind of evolution of Elan's character like for Joey in friends; he was first quite the buffoon and a butt of jokes but with at least some depth etc. and turned into a ridiculous unbelievable moron whose stupidity is so out of any proportion that he shouldn't, like, be able to talk or tie his shoelaces or anything. I do think my concern is unnecessary - but I recognize that risk. And every once of a while I guess you can have a joke about the stupudity going so far that it's beyond of what you could imagine, but not all the time. If anyone cares about my view, that is.

Yippee, awesome

Randomnesh
2006-02-20, 01:11 PM
Lovely comic! I love the artwork in this one, especially the motion and action in the Miko and Belkar scenes.

Can't wait until Wednesday! :)

OzymandiasVolt
2006-02-20, 01:15 PM
Sweet, they reached the correct verdict AND Belkar got stabbed.

Leveller
2006-02-20, 01:22 PM
NOOO! Poor Belkar... If he dies I won't know what to do.. :'(

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2006-02-20, 01:27 PM
*sobbing* NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LORD BELKAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*stop sobbing* If she kills my Deity I will smite her with all the power of the OOTS pantheon, minus her.

alanajoli
2006-02-20, 01:29 PM
Finished translations, I only numbered the panels in which Haley speaks to make this quicker...more to come as I copy and crack the rest.

You're my heroes Nova Quinn and Nightstallion! ;)

What a climax indeed...

Supagoof
2006-02-20, 01:31 PM
Okay, Awesome strip, but my comments (like way too many other posted before) include so much speculation, that I'm threading them as spoilers. Please feel free to not highlight the text to read it.


Belkar is not going to die. There is no way that will happen in a room full of healers and Paladins. Miko will probably fall, but be placed on a quest with Oots to regain her status. Reminder, she was sent on long excursions to get rid of her for awhile since the rest of the Paladins don't get along so well with her. Belker , whether intentionally or not, has her poised to fall right now. If she strikes at him while being incapacitated, that's not being "good", though it can be argued lawful.

As for being lawful, there is no proven fact (though evidence strongly suggests) that Belkar did kill the paladin guard. If he did, shouldn't he stand trial as well? And would it be a wrong to try and escape, if in fact he was wrongly imprisoned in the first place?

How better to have the storyline progess than with both characters, forced to travel with each other, carry out the same mission? I think that Lord Shojo's speak with Roy will clear up some things, like what "Meow" means, or perhaps to ask him to go and rebuild the gate/protect the other gates since the forces of evil are still at hand (Xykon just had another evilgasm.). Anyway, my thoughts about spoilers.....

Giant, I apologize if this post has impact on your storyline, keep up the fantastic work, and edit this out (no I won't be offended at all) if you feel the need


Meow - awesome. I didn't think cats could speak common either.

Banjo fo deity.

captheather
2006-02-20, 01:38 PM
Seeing as I first discovered the message boards when I was hoping to find out what Haley was saying, I find it ironic that today of all days I decided to figure it out on my own. That's even more impressive since it took me about 4 hours since my baby decided napping wasn't for her this morning.

All I have to say is that this comic rocked. I enjoyed it before I translated what Haley said (and I'm glad to see my translation matched up with what the others posted), but once I read what Haley said, it took the comic to a whole other level.

This rocked, and I can't wait until the next comic. I have all sorts of ideas of what might happen next, and what looks might be deceiving, and whether or not Miko will actually complete her strike. And the art was fantastic.

Sylian
2006-02-20, 01:38 PM
Ouch. The sword was deep in!
I didn't think it was deep in, just that it was a small wound, but she impaled him!

Will he survive? Will we survive?

theKOT
2006-02-20, 01:41 PM
Okay, Awesome strip, but my comments (like way too many other posted before) include so much speculation, that I'm threading them as spoilers. Please feel free to not highlight the text to read it.


Spoiler was here


Meow - awesome. I didn't think cats could speak common either.

Banjo fo deity.
A. Yes he did kill him. The Xed out eyes mean dead.
B. If authorities suspect that you commited a crime, they have the right to imprison you, whether or not you are guilty, and attempted escape is punishable.
C. Belkar is CE. He has shown no redeeming traits and has used one of his victim's blood to taunt Miko. In D&D land, trials aren't neccisary, especially if you know that the being in question of his own free will acted completely and irrevocably evil.

All in all, Miko should fall for smiling, using detect evil, breathing, living, and basic unpleasantness, right?

Ironfang
2006-02-20, 01:46 PM
I am SOOO glad I only scroll down ever so slowly while reading. That was awesome! I was even excited once I realized that it was double sized, but the look on Belkar's face as he came thru the window. "Poor Belkie!"

Then I frantically came to the boards for translation only to have major problems getting the pages to come up. BTW thanks to all decoders out there.

Rich, Kudos on another great comic, this comic rocks I so look forward to it. It must feel good to pull those lurkers out of hiding to give you praise.

-Loved "Meow"
-Thought Elan's vote would have consequences too.
-Being of ultimate law and goodness still in room 'nuff said.

Can't wait for Wednesday!

Thanks Again Rich.

BTW Rich you should post your thoughts on comments more often, only reason I read all eleventy-something pages of posts is looking for to see if you said anything.

redmind0
2006-02-20, 01:47 PM
Glad to read this on a MONDAY MORN.

Taelas
2006-02-20, 01:49 PM
Avoiding the Good Must Smite Evil argument, it is still obvious that Miko is in danger of Falling because by killing Belkar here she would seriously fail to uphold the Lawful principles of a paladin's duty. Unless you want to be selective in your judgment on when to apply these Lawful principles - saying that it was okay to drag OOTS all the way to Azure City and put them on trial, and then contradicting yourself by saying that Belkar, however, can be killed just so, brushing the Law aside and relying on the argument that he's, well, Evil.
I refer you to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=265).

captheather
2006-02-20, 01:52 PM
I'll admit straight out that I am a Belkar fan. In general, I highly dislike paladins in and out of character because the one player I know who loves to play them plays them very stick up the arse. That being said, I'm with the pro-Miko league who asserts that the fall of a paladin takes more than what's being attributed.

Just with what Miko knows (and you must admit that with her entrance timed the way it is, she CANNOT know they were pronounced not guilty) she has a prisoner who has escaped after killing a guard. In the US legal system, which of course may have no bearing here, escaping prison carries a penalty whether or not you were found not guilty for the crime that put you there. Belkar was clearly attacking Miko, so if we use the US system as a rough guide again, he was resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer. Crimes again. While I'm fully aware that the legal system in Azure City is not the legal system in the US, I'm willing to wager that Miko is well within her rights as a paladin to bring Belkar to justice.

Now, if she does carry through with her strike (and I hope she doesn't, but my ideas of how that might happen would be a spoiler), she may have a crisis of faith once she learns Belkar was not guilty. But I don't think she would fall because her god surely knows she was doing what was lawful and good TO HER KNOWLEDGE at the time. I've always been of the understanding that a paladin has to willfully be evil to lose their status. And I don't think Miko has crossed that line willfully.

As one of my DMs put it once, there is a difference between evil and EVIL. Most characters cannot help but do a little evil here and there because they are being played by human beings who are not black and white. It will not disrupt their alignment, but it might cause a personal crisis. But if a character commits big EVIL, then expect big ramifications.

Ghull_Ka
2006-02-20, 01:55 PM
A. Yes he did kill him. The Xed out eyes mean dead.
B. If authorities suspect that you commited a crime, they have the right to imprison you, whether or not you are guilty, and attempted escape is punishable.
C. Belkar is CE. He has shown no redeeming traits and has used one of his victim's blood to taunt Miko. In D&D land, trials aren't neccisary, especially if you know that the being in question of his own free will acted completely and irrevocably evil.

All in all, Miko should fall for smiling, using detect evil, breathing, living, and basic unpleasantness, right?

Yes thank you! I agree!

I mean, the ability is called "Smite Evil", it's not called "Smite Evil So Long As The Evildoer Is Not On His Back Or Hasn't Been Given A Fair Trial". Escaped from prison. Murdered a guard. Must be smote.

SMITE, MIKO, SMITE!!!ONE!!!11!!ELEV3N!!

;D I <3 this comic!

EladrinStarmist
2006-02-20, 01:58 PM
OMG Belkar NOOOOOOO! I dont' care if he's CE, he's one of my fav. characters and I want him to LIIIIIVE! LIVE BELKAR!

GREAT strip today, Giant! Absolutely WONDERFUL! (I woudnt' be using so many caps if it weren't) ;)

As for Miko falling from grace, I dont' think that's what's going to happen. She wont lose her paladin abilities for killing Belkar because she's acting on the information she has about him. She doesnt' know that he's been found not guilty. However, on the other hand, she knows he IS guilty of killing his guard, escaping from prison and a host of other evil things. It could go either way.

Has the Giant ever confirmed that Belkar is CE? Can someone point me to that? If not, Is it possible that Belkar is CN?

theKOT
2006-02-20, 01:59 PM
Now, if she does carry through with her strike (and I hope she doesn't, but my ideas of how that might happen would be a spoiler), she may have a crisis of faith once she learns Belkar was not guilty. But I don't think she would fall because her god surely knows she was doing what was lawful and good TO HER KNOWLEDGE at the time. I've always been of the understanding that a paladin has to willfully be evil to lose their status. And I don't think Miko has crossed that line willfully.

What does Belkar being guilty have to do with this? He is EVIL, and killed a guard and attempted to kill Miko(Not mercy, just toying with her). To me and probably to Miko, the verdict has no effect on what she should do. I like Belkar and hope he lives, but Go Miko!



Has the Giant ever confirmed that Belkar is CE? Can someone point me to that? If not, Is it possible that Belkar is CN?
Yes, the Giant went on a rant about how in order to be nuetral, you need to do only nuetral things or do enough good deeds to cancel out the evil ones. He then listed all of the evil things he has done and said something like "I feel like having Belkar turn to the camera and say 'just so you know, I'm chaotic evil.' then commence to eat a puppy."

HOWEVER! The Giant has said that his posts are not cannon. Still, his posts are very convincing.

SITB
2006-02-20, 02:00 PM
A female uses a katana to pierce the heart of an evil male charcter...

The revenge of the Aeris?

On a side note, that second last panel was awesome.

archon_huskie
2006-02-20, 02:17 PM
Good BYE Belkar!

May wings of angels speed you towards your firey DOOM!

MWAH ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

By the way, how long is it going to take before you people understand that the Giant, as author of the comic has the right to ignore or redefine the game mechanics to fit the purposes of his story. He does not have to follow the DnD book exactly. Don't believe me? Find Evan's Spiked Tenacles of Forced Intrusion in the player's Handbook.

Second. Has anyone else noticed that throughout the entire story, no character has ever mentioned raising someone from the dead as a possiblity? Who is to say it is possible in OotS?

Sarathi
2006-02-20, 02:20 PM
Hurray! go Miko! This was a good strip, but I must confess that the ruling confused me...much for the same reasons that Haley brought up. I suppose there will be an elaboration later.

Also, glad to see my prediction is thus far right (regarding the defeat of belkar). But I don't think he is dead in the last panel. He doesn't have X's over his eyes but one long slash. This could be what the gaint does when some one goes into negatives. So the Belkar fans might have a chance, but things look bad. Some one would have to get there really fast to stop that sword from coming down, and losing her powers before she strikes wont do anything. He unconsious and she's weilding a katana ( mastwork longsword) 2 handed. Still don't think Miko has done anything to deserve falling, and am looking forward to Belkar funeral.

The Doctor
2006-02-20, 02:21 PM
Someone check the time to see how long it will take for the cryptogram masters to get this one cracked...

Nobody answered this yet, so, with some hickerypokery I bring you:
29 minutes, 57.3 seconds.

Sarathi
2006-02-20, 02:23 PM
Raise dead would be a little anti-climatic, but is actually a possibility in OoTS. See Roy's father in Oragin of the PC's.

xyzchyx
2006-02-20, 02:25 PM
Paraphrased slightly... but this is what I couldn't help but think of when I saw the bottom panel: "Take your weapon - strike him down with all of your hatred, and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete."

Lloyd
2006-02-20, 02:26 PM
Woot! Great Strip, Giant! Thank you for not taking a three-day weekend!

Please don't let Belkar die! Please please pretty please!

And I agree with Elan... "THAT'S A CLIMAX!"

Landon_Fox
2006-02-20, 02:34 PM
Please everyone. The guard died in a Paladin city. There are powerful enough clerics to summon a being of pure law and pure good. I think it shouldn't be too hard to scare up a raise dead. I'd be cute to have Belkar apologize for the level loss on the part of the guard.

"Sorry, unnamed NPC guard-type person thing. I feel your pain. I feel my pain too, now that I think about it!"

I don't have a player's handbook with me at college. What are the rules on a paladin feeling hatred, or killing in hatred and/or cold blood?

Particle_Man
2006-02-20, 02:38 PM
I will start a new thread on my Belkar thoughts.

MagFlare
2006-02-20, 02:39 PM
He does not have to follow the DnD book exactly. Don't believe me? Find Evan's Spiked Tenacles of Forced Intrusion in the player's Handbook.

Alternately, examine the DMG for instructions on how to research new spells.

Freeman333
2006-02-20, 02:40 PM
Seems we've been getting quite a few of the ol' double-length strips lately. Have we been good? Did I accidentally clean my room and not notice, or something? In any case, ahhh, that's good climaxin'. (Keep your minds out of the gutter, kids. I'm taking up all the space in there anyway.)

And, in addition, we get an extra-cryptic cryptogram today (that's got to be some kind of metareferential record somewhere). Elan's a genius, eh? Is someone in this courtroom not what they seem? I won't say nothing spolierific, but I will comment that when a cat says he's got something to say to you in private, Roy, it's best to roll with it. Worst case scenario, you spend several minutes petting a soft kitty. Best case scenario, you get to find out whether or not Elan speaks cattish, and exactly what red herring tastes like. (There's a cat/fish joke in there somewhere, but I'm going to leave it to the generation which follows.)

And, finally, Belkar gets a-hurtin'. The nice thing about this strip--and D&D in general--is the ability to punish people you don't like without consequences. Badly banged up? Cure Serious cures what ails ya'. Vital body parts removed and sold on e-Bay? (C'mon, Azure City sells video games; tell me they don't have e-Bay.) Raise Dead and you're right as rain (rain that just lost a level, but still). So bring on the scapegoats! I've got a pointy stick that's looking mighty lonely.

theKOT
2006-02-20, 02:40 PM
Please everyone. The guard died in a Paladin city. There are powerful enough clerics to summon a being of pure law and pure good. I think it shouldn't be too hard to scare up a raise dead. I'd be cute to have Belkar apologize for the level loss on the part of the guard.

I don't have a player's handbook with me at college. What are the rules on a paladin feeling hatred, or killing in hatred and/or cold blood?

Like Belkar would ever apologize for ANYTHING.
Also, it's not cold blood if the person is simply knocked out after a very tense prolonged battle. If it's no big deal to kill a guard in a city full of people that could raise him, how is it a big deal to kill the murderer? Don't forget he also defiled the corpse.

RedSolitaire
2006-02-20, 02:40 PM
Hollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll ly s___! Thank you Rich!
OOTS is now innocent, so Belkar is innocent.
Miko was trying to kill Belkar, which is innocent.
Now Miko is totally screwed. Sweeeeeet...

Is Belkar really innocent? (I mean from weakening the fabric of the universe and not the way he clearly isnt :P )

He wasn't actually at the trial and so hasnt really been ruled innocent. And, as Celia said in 269, the trial might have gone the other way if he was there

burns1gn
2006-02-20, 02:42 PM
Giant,
You're bringing us lurkers out in droves today. Long time lurker of the comic forum but my first post here.

Great strip! As always, looking forward to the next one.

Flak_Razorwill
2006-02-20, 02:44 PM
First off: Thanks for the new wallpaper...

Second: I had cued up some action music for this comic, so it seemed a bit overwrought after the verdict.

Then I got really happy. I'm glad I prepared.

Coldwind
2006-02-20, 02:44 PM
that's it.

belkar is about to achieve success, which was a dangerous game all along.

umm.. Miko looks like.. Anakin Skywalker's times when he's shifting to the dark side, especially when killing Count Dooku. He knows that killing Dooku is not the Jedi way, he killed either, then he gained dark side points, he somewhat fall.

now, in front of the being law and good, lord shojo, priests and the other guys, miko's not gonna be kill belkar like that. because he is now unarmed and uncapacitated prisoner, and its not the sapphire guard code :p.

in short: i guess that's the end of the Miko.

Landon_Fox
2006-02-20, 02:45 PM
Also, it's not cold blood if the person is simply knocked out after a very tense prolonged battle.

I didn't ask about Belkar. I asked about Paladins in general. I repeat, what are the rules on paladin feeling hatred and/or killing in hatred and/or cold blood?

xyzchyx
2006-02-20, 02:52 PM
what are the rules on paladin feeling hatred and/or killing in hatred and/or cold blood?On the subject of hatred, there are no rules in place at all for Paladins. Paladins are permitted to feel the gamut of emotions just like anyone else.

Killing in cold blood, on the other hand... well, it really depends on the circumstances. Arguably any final killing strike is done in cold blood.

But you know, the only reason why we are even debating it is because Belkar is a main character and I doubt any of us readers want to see him die, yet in these circumstances in a game of D&D, that would in fact be the right and just thing to happen.

tsmack5150
2006-02-20, 02:55 PM
Laws of Azure city... Rules of alignment... duty vs. honor vs. court procedures... goodevillawchaostrialverdict... aagghhh!!!

I long for a simpler time...

"...you see, I don't go in for any motions or injunctions or any of that stuff... what I do is, I find out where you live, and go over to your house with a @#$%*&! baseball bat, kick down your door, set fire to that Chesterfield sofa, maybe roast that golden retriever of yours (Arooourourourourou!) and EAT it! And then I drag you out of bed by the lapels on your Brooks Brothers PJ's, take your court order, and stick it up your lily white a**!"

-Randy Quaid as Peter Blunt, esq. in Caddyshack II

Dark_Stalion
2006-02-20, 02:58 PM
Ive got one thing to say, and that is...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, NOT BELKAR!

Thank you.

Landon_Fox
2006-02-20, 02:58 PM
It is factually correct that the halfling ranger is the impetus for this line of discussion. (ingest your heart, V!)

However...


Mr. Jones's closing statement just seems too much of a straight line. He directly cited Miko still having powers as a reason that the Order of the Stick is guilty. The Order of the Stick was just declared not guilty. What does two and two put together equal?

Coffee_Dragon
2006-02-20, 03:01 PM
Way cool. Elan antics and a non-stupid Lawful Good being (if it is one, that is).

Interestingly, back when Miko split from the rest to hunt Belkar, I envisioned them returning to the main plot thread by crashing in dramatically through a window at the end of the trial (but just before the verdict, not after).


I repeat, what are the rules on paladin feeling hatred and/or killing in hatred and/or cold blood?

I'm fairly sure that paladins are expected to hate evil, and it's certainly matter-of-course to slay known evil beings without a trial. Doing it when there's a court mere feet away could be another thing, but it's hardly the stuff Falls are made of, anyway.

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-20, 03:03 PM
All in all, Miko should fall for smiling, using detect evil, breathing, living, and basic unpleasantness, right?

No, of course you are right, she is the stick figured embodiment of perfection who can do no wrong.

I'd like to know, though, what makes her a good paladin in your opinion?

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-20, 03:06 PM
I'm fairly sure that paladins are expected to hate evil, and it's certainly matter-of-course to slay known evil beings without a trial.

Just double checking, but according to your opinion, where does the "Lawful" part of being a paladin comes into the equation?

Kish
2006-02-20, 03:09 PM
I doubt any of us readers want to see [Belkar] die
...

Really?

Nyax
2006-02-20, 03:13 PM
Arg! lot of cryptograms! Gratz to Celia for her first case! And I sure hope Belkar survives! Belkar is cool!

All in all, it was an awesome strip! way worth the wait!

Frem
2006-02-20, 03:14 PM
That comic was AWEXOME!!!

Question: Will that crashing-thru-the-window frame be avalable as wallpaper? That would be amazingly cool.

theKOT
2006-02-20, 03:16 PM
No, of course you are right, she is the stick figured embodiment of perfection who can do no wrong.

I'd like to know, though, what makes her a good paladin in your opinion?
Of course, because I called her perfect, and stated that she could do no wrong? What makes her a good paladin? Howabout undying loyalty to a good cause, the Sapphire guard? She is pushy and overbearing, but as her paladin abilities imply, she has never done evil.

that's it.

belkar is about to achieve success, which was a dangerous game all along.

umm.. Miko looks like.. Anakin Skywalker's times when he's shifting to the dark side, especially when killing Count Dooku. He knows that killing Dooku is not the Jedi way, he killed either, then he gained dark side points, he somewhat fall.

now, in front of the being law and good, lord shojo, priests and the other guys, miko's not gonna be kill belkar like that. because he is now unarmed and uncapacitated prisoner, and its not the sapphire guard code :p.

in short: i guess that's the end of the Miko.
The Jedi code and the paladin code are two different things. He may be knocked out, but he deserves to die and it is the end of a battle. It's not like the Ogres where they came across them while they were sleeping. Paladins basically exist to smite evil, whereas Jedi exist to keep peace. Miko has stated that she killed many things that came up as "evil" after she detected them. It's a very different situation than the whole Anakin thing.
In short: Belkar is CE who is on the run from the law, killed a guard, and subsequently defiled his corpse. He deserves to die...

I still hope he doesn't though. I like the humor he brings to the strip.
Edit:



Just double checking, but according to your opinion, where does the "Lawful" part of being a paladin comes into the equation?
Maybe in following laws and codes and caring about the greater good? Just edit in new quotes, there's no need to double post.

Tetralemma
2006-02-20, 03:26 PM
It is factually correct that the halfling ranger is the impetus for this line of discussion. (ingest your heart, V!)

However...


Spoiler was here.


Answering your spoiler as a spoiler:

A bit of poking fun at lawyers with my response: The fact that a LAWYER said something has no bearing on whether that statement is true or not.


And Giant, great comic!

Brat-t
2006-02-20, 03:28 PM
Translate, translate, translate the ebil cryptograms!

The_Weirdo
2006-02-20, 03:28 PM
Mod, I don't know how to white out the spoilers, how do I do it so I can write one? I hope this works. In any case, I entered the spoiler way down...

Spoiler down!













I think Miko will be ordered to halt her attack, not do it anyways, then be discharged from the Sapphire Guard and, as a result, go Blackguard.

zimri
2006-02-20, 03:29 PM
Like Belkar would ever apologize for ANYTHING.
Also, it's not cold blood if the person is simply knocked out after a very tense prolonged battle. If it's no big deal to kill a guard in a city full of people that could raise him, how is it a big deal to kill the murderer? Don't forget he also defiled the corpse.

we don't KNOW he defiled the corpse.


I half expect that if he gets struck down we will see a red crayon or similar plot device fall from one of his many pockets

Maryring
2006-02-20, 03:29 PM
Okay... this... was... unwordable. Good job.

theKOT
2006-02-20, 03:34 PM
we don't KNOW he defiled the corpse.



No. the thickness of the lines and position of the body make it pretty obvious what happened. besides, that was just ONE of the things he did.
To respond to the wierdo, no. He is an evildoer and miko would not kill him if ordered not to.

Coldwind
2006-02-20, 03:35 PM
The Jedi code and the paladin code are two different things. He may be knocked out, but he deserves to die and it is the end of a battle. It's not like the Ogres where they came across them while they were sleeping. Paladins basically exist to smite evil, whereas Jedi exist to keep peace. Miko has stated that she killed many things that came up as "evil" after she detected them. It's a very different situation than the whole Anakin thing.
In short: Belkar is CE who is on the run from the law, killed a guard, and subsequently defiled his corpse. He deserves to die...

Well, maybe Miko does not have a saga like Anakin's, but both of them overwhelmed by their anger in similar situations. In this episode, Miko's acting personally, not for a mission. Belkar taunted her for that reason, keeping her own private matters than the mission, which was his point. Remember, Miko's 'officially' mission is to get Belkar to the court, NOT killing him in front of the court.

Also, if the OotS is not guilty after that second, that makes Belkar innocent, too. Now Miko's killing a "innocent" chaotic evil dude? I don't guess the dead guard will be a problem unless, while Miko is becoming a fallen paladin. That will be interesting to see.

And a reminder, we may know that Belkar is evil, but Miko NEVER saw Belkar as evil, due to the lead sheet. :)

Kish
2006-02-20, 03:37 PM
No, but she knows Smite Evil did its Smiting damage to him.

Marller
2006-02-20, 03:39 PM
That comic was AWEXOME!!!

Question: Will that crashing-thru-the-window frame be avalable as wallpaper? That would be amazingly cool.
I second that. 1600x1200, please. :)

theKOT
2006-02-20, 03:39 PM
Well, maybe Miko does not have a saga like Anakin's, but both of them overwhelmed by their anger in similar situations. In this episode, Miko's acting personally, not for a mission. Belkar taunted her for that reason, keeping her own private matters than the mission, which was his point. Remember, Miko's 'officially' mission is to get Belkar to the court, NOT killing him in front of the court.

Also, if the OotS is not guilty after that second, that makes Belkar innocent, too. Now Miko's killing a "innocent" chaotic evil dude? I don't guess the dead guard will be a problem unless, while Miko is becoming a fallen paladin. That will be interesting to see.

And a reminder, we may know that Belkar is evil, but Miko NEVER saw Belkar as evil, due to the lead sheet. :)

Nonononono. Belkar is in no way "innocent". They DID blow up the gate, but more directly, Belkar did many evil deeds during/leading up to thier battle. He tried to kill Miko's warhorse, remember?

Also, Honor dictates that when challenged, one will participate in a one-on-one duel. Miko has not been overwhelmed by anger, she is simply killing a psychopathic maniac.

xrestassuredx
2006-02-20, 03:42 PM
Everyone keeps referencing #265, but we've still seen no evidence that it was blood and not marker (which we have seen Belkar use on several occassions) on the wall. The guard looks quite dead, and quite stabbed, but not at all "defiled," so stop saying so.

Bribri
2006-02-20, 03:42 PM
Kinda Neutral on the idea of Belkar dieing thing. On one end, yes, he Does bring humor to the strip, undoubtedly. But the situation would merit his death if this was a real d&D game. Evil characters who scheme, cheat, and be all around jackasses generaly get whats coming to them. Though I'd imagin it's more likely he'll live through this, simply because this IS a comic, we're attached to the characters n' all.

Though there are some questions that would arise if he does die, such as who if anything would replace him in order of the stick? Or simply for that form of comedy when Giant wants to express it.

Over all, I think if he does live I see him leaveing the order of the stick eventualy anyway. There's only so much Roy can ignore, and he did see the guards blood painted across the walls (or we assume it's that, it could be some sort of paint, though I'd question where'd he'd get so much) like everyone else. My best case senerio? Belkar joins the badguys =P

The_Weirdo
2006-02-20, 03:44 PM
snip

Uhm, could you change that line please? I made a point of not making it spoiler... :(

Cypher
2006-02-20, 03:50 PM
Don't you dare kill Belkar! >:(

Coldwind
2006-02-20, 03:53 PM
we can see in the last panel, miko's overwhelmed by anger, or i have never seen miko's blue eyes.

belkar may be guilty, but the court don't even know about it. also, miko herself did not see him while he's trying her horse, she just asked "what are you doing with my horse?" or something like that.
that's why i said " 'innocent' chaotic evil".

well, i don't think they are 1-on-1 dueling anymore, while interuptting mr. scruffy's words. beware!

and, we never saw miko damaged belkar with 'smite evil', she tried once, she was soaked with rice wine. now she is trying it, we still don't know.

of course, without belkar, i don't guess it would be the same taste.they are a group with a imaginated characters. i don't guess belkar showed up to giant and said "give me more gp's for each episode." and that's why he's gonna kill.

anyway, fate of belkar is at the hand of giant, who will not kill him i hope. :)

Yahoo_Serious
2006-02-20, 03:53 PM
This was a huge win for Belkar, a real coup in terms of both tactics and roleplaying.

I don't get arguments based on a legalistic view of paladinhood, especially after the lawyers' arguments, the judgment, the fact that none of the other paladins like Miko, etc etc etc.

Think about it this way: if you were running a campaign, would you rather have a player who could pull of roleplaying a non-standard PC-choice, and show real cleverness in using his/her surroundings and abilities in the game, or would you rather have the type of player who takes a paladin and then proceeds to cast 'detect evil' on passersby, arguing that they have the natural right to kill anything that comes up evil?

IMHO, Giant prefers Belkar, no question.

xrestassuredx
2006-02-20, 03:57 PM
Another note unrelated to the Belko saga -- everyone seemed to notice the "WANG," but no one's yet mentioned the "CEESH" in this comic. Probably not the onomatopoeia I would have chosen, but it fits perfectly ..

theKOT
2006-02-20, 03:59 PM
Everyone keeps referencing #265, but we've still seen no evidence that it was blood and not marker (which we have seen Belkar use on several occassions) on the wall. The guard looks quite dead, and quite stabbed, but not at all "defiled," so stop saying so.
Actually we've seen lots of evidence. The body had been moved next to the wall, the lines are thicker than the crayon, and the particular style seems to be different. So I WON'T stop saying so, thank you.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-20, 04:00 PM
*Bursts into the thread*

*Gasp* Belkar!

*Wheeze* Sword!

*Pant, pant, breathe* OMFGWTFZOMGBBQXD2M4X, GIANT! *Gasp* UPDATE! *pant* NOOOW!!!

*Collapses into an ever-growing puddle of his own sweat with a meaty flop*

Tetralemma
2006-02-20, 04:01 PM
Everyone keeps referencing #265, but we've still seen no evidence that it was blood and not marker (which we have seen Belkar use on several occassions) on the wall. The guard looks quite dead, and quite stabbed, but not at all "defiled," so stop saying so.
Ahh, yeah, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. This is Belkar we're talking about here. He is chaotic evil.

Even if Belkar did still have the marker on him (unlikely since he was in a pit, was searched, and there was no reason to hide a marker in the same place he hid the ring), he wouldn't have used it since there was so much blood lying around housed in a convenient container.

That's blood. The guard's blood. On the walls. Put there by Belkar.

Marius
2006-02-20, 04:02 PM
First it doesn't matter if Belkar is in fact evil a paladin can just go everywhere killing evil people, I picture 33% of the people to be evil. Second paladins are not evil killing machines, they are supposed to be the closest to a saint that someone will ever be, for a paladin no one is above redemption. And they have to ALWAYS act with honor and killing someone defendless is far from honorable it doesn't matter if it's Belkar or Goblin nē 1798. Of course that's my point of view but in my game she'll lose her powers.

theKOT
2006-02-20, 04:04 PM
we can see in the last panel, miko's overwhelmed by anger, or i have never seen miko's blue eyes.

belkar may be guilty, but the court don't even know about it. also, miko herself did not see him while he's trying her horse, she just asked "what are you doing with my horse?" or something like that.
that's why i said " 'innocent' chaotic evil".

well, i don't think they are 1-on-1 dueling anymore, while interuptting mr. scruffy's words. beware!

and, we never saw miko damaged belkar with 'smite evil', she tried once, she was soaked with rice wine. now she is trying it, we still don't know.

of course, without belkar, i don't guess it would be the same taste.they are a group with a imaginated characters. i don't guess belkar showed up to giant and said "give me more gp's for each episode." and that's why he's gonna kill.

anyway, fate of belkar is at the hand of giant, who will not kill him i hope. :)
Her eyes turn blue when using her paladin abilities. See the detect evil strip. Also, we KNOW that Belkar was really hurt by her smite evil in the second Oots fight. The Giant transcribed the battle. She used smite evil repeatedly, to great effect.

First it doesn't matter if Belkar is in fact evil a paladin can just go everywhere killing evil people, I picture 33% of the people to be evil. Second paladins are not evil killing machines, they are supposed to be the closest to a saint that someone will ever be, for a paladin no one is above redemption. And they have to ALWAYS act with honor and killing someone defendless is far from honorable it doesn't matter if it's Belkar or Goblin nē 1798. Of course that's my point of view but in my game she'll lose her powers.
Roy coup-de-graced a bunch of sleeping goblins, and he is LG. Next!

xrestassuredx
2006-02-20, 04:05 PM
and, we never saw miko damaged belkar with 'smite evil', she tried once, she was soaked with rice wine. now she is trying it, we still don't know.
She did use all three Smite Evils on Belkar in the "off-screen" battle of #251, with a play-by-play from the Giant in that posts discussion thread (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1132340412 ;start=488).

All the same, Belkar has been apprehended, incapacitated brought to the courtroom, in negative HP no less, there is absolutely no Lawful excuse for Miko to be killing him now.

Duskrider_Moogle
2006-02-20, 04:05 PM
Well, maybe Miko does not have a saga like Anakin's, but both of them overwhelmed by their anger in similar situations. In this episode, Miko's acting personally, not for a mission. Belkar taunted her for that reason, keeping her own private matters than the mission, which was his point. Remember, Miko's 'officially' mission is to get Belkar to the court, NOT killing him in front of the court.

Also, if the OotS is not guilty after that second, that makes Belkar innocent, too. Now Miko's killing a "innocent" chaotic evil dude? I don't guess the dead guard will be a problem unless, while Miko is becoming a fallen paladin. That will be interesting to see.

And a reminder, we may know that Belkar is evil, but Miko NEVER saw Belkar as evil, due to the lead sheet. :)

Belkar murdered a guard, defiled his body and was running loose through the castle. We don't know anything of Azure City's laws regarding non-gate-explody matters, but I think that execution is not unreasonable. Anyway, Miko knows Belkar is evil because she successfully used Smite Evil on him before and also because he is unashamedly evil.

Plus there's the part where he's trying to kill her. (The fact that he's making it last has no bearing on the fact that her death is his ultimate goal, mind.)

You could argue that in such an arcane-magic-rich area as Azure City seems to be Belkar's murder of the guard is less of a crime since he can be easily resurrected, but if that's the case Miko's killing Belkar becomes the preferable means of incapacitating a deadly murderer, and also becomes more like a fine of some experience.

I really, really hope that Smite Evil connects. Show us the alignment system still works! And give us a few good resurrection jokes!

Or don't, if what you have in mind is funnier.

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-20, 04:06 PM
Howabout undying loyalty to a good cause, the Sapphire guard?

I am sure that there are plenty of sentient beings out there, being extremely loyal to their superiors. As for the cause of the Sapphire Guard... while overall I would tend to think it as good, comic 277 states: "Soon sent his men and women on a crusade to wipe out all who would threaten the Azure city gate, no matter how far removed geographically". That sounds like a bit of a can of worms when dealing with moral issues right there. I struggle to find pre-emptive wipeout as a part of a good cause. Just something I wanted to mention.


She is pushy and overbearing, but as her paladin abilities imply, she has never done evil.

Is that 'never done evil' all that's asked of a paladin? There probably are countless individuals who have not done any serious Evil. I thought paladins were somehow especially distinguished from the rest?


Maybe in following laws and codes and caring about the greater good?

Do you think in this situation killing Belkar, Miko follows the law?

Marius
2006-02-20, 04:09 PM
Roy coup-de-graced a bunch of sleeping goblins, and he is LG. Next!

Roy is not a paladin, next!

Duskrider_Moogle
2006-02-20, 04:11 PM
Oh, and does this strip mean that Elan took Bonus Language: Kitty?

theKOT
2006-02-20, 04:12 PM
I am sure that there are plenty of sentient beings out there, being extremely loyal to their superiors. As for the cause of the Sapphire Guard... while overall I would tend to think it as good, comic 277 states: "Soon sent his men and women on a crusade to wipe out all who would threaten the Azure city gate, no matter how far removed geographically". That sounds like a bit of a can of worms when dealing with moral issues right there. I struggle to find pre-emptive wipeout as a part of a good cause. Just something I wanted to mention.


Is that 'never done evil' all that's asked of a paladin? There probably are countless individuals who have not done any serious Evil. I thought paladins were somehow especially distinguished from the rest?


Do you think in this situation killing Belkar, Miko follows the law?
In inverse order.
Yes! Belkar is fighting with her, and shows no signs of surrendering. Incapacitated he may be, but this is AFTER a fight. There's a difference. Should you Raise someone who was evil that you killed in battle, simply to put them on trial again?
I know that you must do more than simply "no evil" to be a paladin, I was just saying that she has never done evil, and that counts for something. Miko is loyal to a group dedicated to PROTECTING THE UNIVERSE from an incredibly powerful evil. I call that good. The order is MADE UP OF PALADINS, so obviously they are doing something right.
Edit:



Roy is not a paladin, next!
Ok, let me extend my answer a little here. Miko is killing someone she incapacitated after a long battle. She "would have probably" killed the OOTS BOTH TIMES she fought them had they not surrenedered both times. I was misusing the roy example. It's gone. Should you Raise someone who was evil that you killed in battle, simply to put them on trial again? If you are fighting someone, finishing them off is not evil nor forbidden by the paladin code.

Ashbless
2006-02-20, 04:15 PM
Do you think in this situation killing Belkar, Miko follows the law?

Up to this point, yes. I would equate this with the bandit escaping from jail in a Western, having killed the Deputy, and the Sheriff racing after him, ending in a duel. If the Sheriff kills the bandit then that's entirely within his rights.

IRSWalker
2006-02-20, 04:16 PM
Ooh, Haley - you're the genius! Thanks for helping me figure it out.

However, this is not the thread for spoilers......

:)

Lady_Orc
2006-02-20, 04:17 PM
A. Yes he did kill him. The Xed out eyes mean dead.
B. If authorities suspect that you commited a crime, they have the right to imprison you, whether or not you are guilty, and attempted escape is punishable.
C. Belkar is CE. He has shown no redeeming traits and has used one of his victim's blood to taunt Miko. In D&D land, trials aren't neccisary, especially if you know that the being in question of his own free will acted completely and irrevocably evil.

All in all, Miko should fall for smiling, using detect evil, breathing, living, and basic unpleasantness, right?

Miko should fall if she kills or attempts to kill, a defenseless person, no matter what his alignment, who is surrounded by a bunch of paladins and a Being of Pure Law and Good. A paladin should work towards a legal trial for crimes Belkar has committed, unless she has to kill him in for example self defense, or to defend somebody else.

In this case, Belkar is both unconscious/stunned, and surrounded by plenty of powerful people who can easily overpower him should he get to his feet. Killing him now would be murder, no matter what he has done in the past.

xrestassuredx
2006-02-20, 04:24 PM
Actually we've seen lots of evidence. The body had been moved next to the wall, the lines are thicker than the crayon, and the particular style seems to be different. So I WON'T stop saying so, thank you.
Obviously, Belkar was trying to make it look the guard's blood (Craft Disturbing Mental Image?). The position of the guard's body, the drawing style, all can be explained by that fact. Not to mention that he had to have been using the Ring of Jumping to do most of the drawing.

The guard's body still doesn't look defiled, with nothing beyond a single stab wound and no blood anywhere.



Even if Belkar did still have the marker on him (unlikely since he was in a pit, was searched, and there was no reason to hide a marker in the same place he hid the ring), he wouldn't have used it since there was so much blood lying around housed in a convenient container.
The Order were searched and removed of their weapons and magic items. Nothing says he didn't still have his crayon/marker still on him. And, like I just said, the "convenient container" doesn't seem to be bleeding very much, certainly not enough to have been used for what you're all saying it was.

Belkar killed the guard. But he didn't, as we can plainly see, defile the body.

Bilbo27
2006-02-20, 04:26 PM
LaValle, Love your Star Wars side piece.

As for the Giant, just one word to describe this comic---PRICELESS!!

Can't wait until Wednesday.

Meow?

Ghull_Ka
2006-02-20, 04:26 PM
Miko should fall if she kills or attempts to kill, a defenseless person, no matter what his alignment, who is surrounded by a bunch of paladins and a Being of Pure Law and Good. A paladin should work towards a legal trial for crimes Belkar has committed, unless she has to kill him in for example self defense, or to defend somebody else.

In this case, Belkar is both unconscious/stunned, and surrounded by plenty of powerful people who can easily overpower him should he get to his feet. Killing him now would be murder, no matter what he has done in the past.


Murder!? To deliver the finishing move to a killer who has killed a fellow paladin, who has set you on fire and stabbed you several times, after you've run him through and he's at death's door after a long protracted battle... is murder?

Coup De Grace FTW. Smite, Miko, smite!

Freeman333
2006-02-20, 04:28 PM
Another note unrelated to the Belko saga -- everyone seemed to notice the "WANG," but no one's yet mentioned the "CEESH" in this comic. Probably not the onomatopoeia I would have chosen, but it fits perfectly ..

What can I say? It's hard not to notice a wang that big.

(This is MY gutter, I said! Get your minds out of here, you lousy kids!)

Yahoo_Serious
2006-02-20, 04:30 PM
9 reasons Belkar won:

1. He broke out of prison with a cunningly hidden ring;
2. Rather than simply saving himself and escaping, he purposefully goaded Miko, a sanctimonious paladin of much higher level, into tracking him on her own;
3. He used his ranger abilities, along with his surroundings (supply room, sake, etc) brilliantly to neutralize Miko's advantage;
4. He executed a perfect dive into a giant bowl of soup, and had the presence to make an almost James Bond-like quip afterwards;
5. He completely outsmarted Miko with the lead sheet, and didn't take advantage of her when he had the chance (for Belkar, this was almost like mercy);
6. He perfectly orchestrated the end of the fight: crashing through the ceiling right after the verdict had been cast, completely helpless, on the verge of being executed by a paladin blinded with anger, with the entire Sapphire Guard, Azure city priesthood, and a Lawful Good Archon as witnesses;
7. Belkar's entrance to the scene followed immediately after a trial proving that, in the OotSverse at least, "Lawful" means more than rule lawywering; and
8. Who would you rather have as a player in your campaign: a player who makes a non-standard PC choice but then goes with it completely, figuring out really cool ways to use his/her surroundings and character abilities, or a player who takes a paladin, runs around casting "Detect Evil" on everything that moves, and then feels that s/he has the right to kill everything that comes up Evil?
9. Who da halfling!

hpcoh
2006-02-20, 04:30 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=203

In thethird to last panel of strip 203 Miko implies that if the suspect is of an evil alignment she has the legal power to decide guilt.

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-20, 04:31 PM
Up to this point, yes. I would equate this with the bandit escaping from jail in a Western, having killed the Deputy, and the Sheriff racing after him, ending in a duel. If the Sheriff kills the bandit then that's entirely within his rights.



Yes, but now the hypothetical bandit is heavily wounded, defenseless and no threat to the sheriff or anyone else. Should he be killed or put on the trial - or is trial something that beings with Evil in their alignment are not entitled to?

Sebastian
2006-02-20, 04:34 PM
I don't have a player's handbook with me at college. What are the rules on a paladin feeling hatred, or killing in hatred and/or cold blood?
well, apparently as long as he don't know is doing evil a paladin can do anything (hint, play a 3 Int paladin and you can away with everything)

come on, people. you can't mean it seriously. If a paladin do an evil act without knowing it (i.e kill an innocent -forget Belkar for the moment) he lose his paladin status. If he done it without knowing it or unintentionally then he can atone and recover it unlike in the case he did it willingly, but he lose his powers anyway.
The idea that a paladin can keep his abilities as long as he have the delusion that he is doing good it is simple (no offense intended) stupid.

Krytha
2006-02-20, 04:36 PM
Im actually a bit lost in todays strip. If Elan is being a "faux" genius and Haley has everything figured out now I guess Ill have to wait for Wednesday to understand what she's talking about...

...

Is it wednesday yet?

...

Is it wednesday yet?

...

Winterborn
2006-02-20, 04:37 PM
I can't find the post, but I thought I'd bring this up:

Miko's eyes glow blue when she detects evil - but not so when she smites it (though the glowing sword effect is in occurance).

I submit for evidence the following:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200

and

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=270

Note that both times, her eyes remain as black as ever even when she smites. I would hazard that this is because the targets she was attempting to smite (Roy and the dummy) were not, in fact, evil, but then I wouldn't think her sword would glow either.

I'd have to say something else is at work here, with the crazy lookin' eyes and all. But that's just me...

Marius
2006-02-20, 04:39 PM
Edit:
Ok, let me extend my answer a little here. Miko is killing someone she incapacitated after a long battle. She "would have probably" killed the OOTS BOTH TIMES she fought them had they not surrenedered both times. I was misusing the roy example. It's gone. Should you Raise someone who was evil that you killed in battle, simply to put them on trial again? If you are fighting someone, finishing them off is not evil nor forbidden by the paladin code.

If you are fighting and horde of goblins you don't have a choice but to kill them, but she does have a choice, she doesn't have to kill him and I don't know if it's evil to finish them off but it's certanly not the way that I think a paladin should behave. We just have diffrent views so we just have to agree to disagree. :)

theKOT
2006-02-20, 04:39 PM
I'm tired of retyping the same stuff over and over and over. Miko shouldn't fall for killing an evil creature who has attacked her, killed a guard, attempted to attack her horse, attacked her lawyer, and painted a blood mural. He is on the run and innocent of the charges or no, he has done specifically evil things while attempting to escape. No win for Belkar, because Miko won't fall. We have no clue whether or not she is blinded by rage and would not listen to someone telling her to stop, but either way, she did not stop when Durkon told her to in fight #1 and then still retained her paladin powers. I like Belkar, but the way his fans seem to repeat the same process over and over(Smiling, Fall! Using detect evil, Fall! Killing an incapacitated prisoner, no matter what the circumstance, Fall!) really annoys me.

xrestassuredx
2006-02-20, 04:39 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=203
In thethird to last panel of strip 203 Miko implies that if the suspect is of an evil alignment she has the legal power to decide guilt.
What Miko "implies" and what legal powers she actually has two quite different things...

The_Weirdo
2006-02-20, 04:41 PM
well, apparently as long as he don't know is doing evil a paladin can do anything (hint, play a 3 Int paladin and you can away with everything)

come on, people. you can't mean it seriously. If a paladin do an evil act without knowing it (i.e kill an innocent -forget Belkar for the moment) he lose his paladin status. If he done it without knowing it or unintentionally then he can atone and recover it unlike in the case he did it willingly, but he lose his powers anyway.
The idea that a paladin can keep his abilities as long as he have the delusion that he is doing good it is simple (no offense intended) stupid.


To wit: The morons from Al Qaeda all believe that they're doing good. We know it's not so, they believe they're on the right, but they'd not become Paladins EVER in D&D.

Kresalak
2006-02-20, 04:42 PM
I want Miko to fall. I really do. However, I truly cannot see anything she has done or seems to be doing that would cause her to fall. She has every right to kill Belkar, even though I really want him to survive. I really do hate the kind of paladin that Miko is (detect *thump*, as Vaal calls them on the Wizards message boards), but in the OotS universe, being such a paladin is clearly not evil, so she has not violated her code there.

Smiling at her enemies apparant defeat is surely not an evil act. It's a completely neutral act, in all ways.

Using Detect Evil on him is in violation of a law- a slightly Chaotic act. However, a paladin does not fall for one chaotic act- she would have to do such acts many more times to fall.

Smiting Belkar when he's down is simply fighting. Not Good, not Evil, not even Neutral. It just -is-.

However, if Lord Shojo ordered her to stand down, and she killed him anyway, that probably would not cause her to fall. However, it would probably start her on the path towards falling.

So Miko should not be falling, however much I might want her too.

Freeman333
2006-02-20, 04:43 PM
Yes, but now the hypothetical bandit is heavily wounded, defenseless and no threat to the sheriff or anyone else. Should he be killed or put on the trial - or is trial something that beings with Evil in their alignment are not entitled to?


Presumably not--remember that this is a magical fantasy world, not our world, and an alignment of "Evil" isn't something that has to be established. It's an indisputable quality of a being's existence--one that is entirely dependent upon their actions. If someone detects as "evil" on the Evil-o-mat, there's only one reason for that: they've committed evil acts. Nothing else, with the possible exception of carrying around an item frequently used by a powerful evil being (like, say, a crown), can cause you to show up as evil. And, as if that weren't iron-clad enough, someone using deadly force in pursuit of an evil goal would, according to common sense, fall into the category of "get them before they get you". Locking Belkar up and taking away his weapons has already been proven to fail as a deterrent (more than once, for those of us who have had the priviledge of reading Origin). Putting him on trial is just an invitation to let him kill more guards and take another shot at harming/humiliating Miko--not to mention trying to make her lose her paladin abilities, which he's clearly stated he's trying to do. Belkar's a rabid dog--I sincerely doubt anyone in the party, including he himself, would disagree with that description (except for Elan, who would probably describe him as more of a marmoset, or possibly an oscelot)--and from the perspective of a law enforcement officer like Miko, putting him down as swiftly and efficiently as possible is the best decision for a number of reasons.

That said, I don't believe that's what is going to happen. I could post what I do think is going to happen, but the whole spoiler business just wears me out, so I'll keep it sous chapeau (as the French say, or they would if they had the high-school understanding of French that I do) and wait for the next strip to enlighten us all. Yay light!

Ragan
2006-02-20, 04:44 PM
Well, Belkar wont die because that would suck in the same way it sucked when half the crew on Firefly died in the end. And OoTS *DOES NOT SUCK*

Confused? Good. Now, go wait two days.

theKOT
2006-02-20, 04:46 PM
Yes, but now the hypothetical bandit is heavily wounded, defenseless and no threat to the sheriff or anyone else. Should he be killed or put on the trial - or is trial something that beings with Evil in their alignment are not entitled to?

He could be put on trial after he is killed, and is signifcantly less dangerous when dead. If he was dead, they could talk with dead and determine his fate. If he is found to be not deserving of death, Raise him. Otherwise, he stays dead. simple, no?

Well, I'm off to work, so any replies will probably fall upon deaf ears. Sorry!

Nyax
2006-02-20, 04:50 PM
I can't find the post, but I thought I'd bring this up:

Miko's eyes glow blue when she detects evil - but not so when she smites it (though the glowing sword effect is in occurance).

I submit for evidence the following:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200

and

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=270

Note that both times, her eyes remain as black as ever even when she smites. I would hazard that this is because the targets she was attempting to smite (Roy and the dummy) were not, in fact, evil, but then I wouldn't think her sword would glow either.

I'd have to say something else is at work here, with the crazy lookin' eyes and all. But that's just me...

Maybe... yes! i just checked and the smite evil blue fire is bigger in today's strip, and Miko looks generally way more pissed-off and angry than when she smited roy (tried to smite). So yeah something is not right there. But in my opinion paladin arent supposed to be devoid of emotion and can experience anger (unlike jedis) as long as it dosent make their judgement biased.

Sarathi
2006-02-20, 04:56 PM
We mustn't forget, that this battle is more the good vs. evil and law vs chaos. This is also a duel...a matter of honor.

nightfire8199
2006-02-20, 05:05 PM
now thats a climax!!!! and i dont know if you speak common...but.... lol

theKOT
2006-02-20, 05:09 PM
Maybe... yes! i just checked and the smite evil blue fire is bigger in today's strip, and Miko looks generally way more pissed-off and angry than when she smited roy (tried to smite). So yeah something is not right there. But in my opinion paladin arent supposed to be devoid of emotion and can experience anger (unlike jedis) as long as it dosent make their judgement biased.

One last note before I go, Miko may be casting detect evil. That would explain the eyes. Also, the flame around the sword is probably the size it is simply to add drama.

Scion_of_the_Light
2006-02-20, 05:11 PM
Nonononono. Belkar is in no way "innocent". They DID blow up the gate, but more directly, Belkar did many evil deeds during/leading up to thier battle. He tried to kill Miko's warhorse, remember?

Also, Honor dictates that when challenged, one will participate in a one-on-one duel. Miko has not been overwhelmed by anger, she is simply killing a psychopathic maniac.


Exactly. Belkar may be innocent of blowing up the gate, but that isn't the reason Miko's fighting him. He's quite guilty of many a deed.

Tetralemma
2006-02-20, 05:12 PM
Obviously, Belkar was trying to make it look the guard's blood (Craft Disturbing Mental Image?). The position of the guard's body, the drawing style, all can be explained by that fact. Not to mention that he had to have been using the Ring of Jumping to do most of the drawing.

The guard's body still doesn't look defiled, with nothing beyond a single stab wound and no blood anywhere.

The Order were searched and removed of their weapons and magic items. Nothing says he didn't still have his crayon/marker still on him. And, like I just said, the "convenient container" doesn't seem to be bleeding very much, certainly not enough to have been used for what you're all saying it was.

Belkar killed the guard. But he didn't, as we can plainly see, defile the body.
I believe your logic is flawed. That "single stab wound" was enough to kill the guard outright (probably a coup de grace), and appears to be at least a foot long. Any wound that size would have bled massively, and been the cause of death. I see the absence of all this blood as artistic license on the Giant's part, since to show blood everywhere would have distracted from the point of the frame, which was the drawing on the wall (which is a disturbing physical image).

Plus, the point of the drawing on the wall was to enrage Miko to the point that she would follow him on her own as a point of honor. An ink drawing on the walls would only look childish, and she might just send other guards to get him. A crude picture done in the blood of one of her order, however, would be just the thing to enrage her.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see no reason to believe the best of Belkar. I think the easiest and evilest thing to do in that situation was to use the guard's blood.

Wanderlust
2006-02-20, 05:18 PM
Great episode.

I just picked up the first 2 OOTS books, and reading todays strip makes me wonder where the second book will end... probably shortly after this sequence in the court.

Looking forward to Wednesday...

PhoeKun
2006-02-20, 05:18 PM
Beautiful strip. I am potentially one panel away from having all of my OotS related dreams come true. Ok, not all of them, but still...

Go Miko! If only EvilE hadn't beaten me to the punch... repeatedly...

Scion_of_the_Light
2006-02-20, 05:25 PM
well, apparently as long as he don't know is doing evil a paladin can do anything (hint, play a 3 Int paladin and you can away with everything)

come on, people. you can't mean it seriously. If a paladin do an evil act without knowing it (i.e kill an innocent -forget Belkar for the moment) he lose his paladin status. If he done it without knowing it or unintentionally then he can atone and recover it unlike in the case he did it willingly, but he lose his powers anyway.
The idea that a paladin can keep his abilities as long as he have the delusion that he is doing good it is simple (no offense intended) stupid.


What? What sort of game do you play in? Didn't you read Celia's closing statement? What is lawful is not exactly what is good! And doing one evil act does not make your paladin powers go away! It requires an ALIGNMENT CHANGE! Killing Belkar would not make her change alignments at all. She is perfectly justified in what she is doing, both legally (according to the supposed rules of the Azure City), and morally (according to the paladin's code). A paladin is not required to take prisioners, necessarily, if they are fighting a duel to the death against a firmly evil character. So what if Miko's going all Mace Windu on Belkar? She's doing nothing wrong.

Belkar's not exactly helpless. Miko just fought a battle against him. There is no reason why she should not kill him. Doing so would not be an evil act, and definitly would not merit any loss-of-alignment. Why continue this discussion? It's already repeated itself twice.

PhoeKun
2006-02-20, 05:35 PM
What? What sort of game do you play in? Didn't you read Celia's closing statement? What is lawful is not exactly what is good! And doing one evil act does not make your paladin powers go away! It requires an ALIGNMENT CHANGE! Killing Belkar would not make her change alignments at all. She is perfectly justified in what she is doing, both legally (according to the supposed rules of the Azure City), and morally (according to the paladin's code). A paladin is not required to take prisioners, necessarily, if they are fighting a duel to the death against a firmly evil character. So what if Miko's going all Mace Windu on Belkar? She's doing nothing wrong.

Belkar's not exactly helpless. Miko just fought a battle against him. There is no reason why she should not kill him. Doing so would not be an evil act, and definitly would not merit any loss-of-alignment. Why continue this discussion? It's already repeated itself twice.

Er... Paladins do lose their powers if they commit one Evil act. Its right in the PHB under 'Code of Conduct'.

Your point remains valid regardless. Killing Belkar isn't evil, so Miko could do it all day long without risk of a fall.

I'd say more, but then I'd risk giving away my earlier "cryptic" reference to what I want to see happen. Also, there'd be spoilers. Stupid spoilers...

The_Weirdo
2006-02-20, 05:39 PM
Your point remains valid regardless. Killing Belkar isn't evil, so Miko could do it all day long without risk of a fall.

I find it hard to "kill someone all day". Unless you mean a really slow death, which, in this case, WOULD be evil... o_O

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-20, 05:40 PM
Belkar's not exactly helpless. Miko just fought a battle against him. There is no reason why she should not kill him. Doing so would not be an evil act, and definitly would not merit any loss-of-alignment. Why continue this discussion?

Because you are utterly and completely in the wrong? There is nothing wrong with a paladin killing an Evil opponent in a fight. But here the fight has ended and the Evil opponent is defeated, injured and helpless. If you want your character to kill a helpless (albeit Evil) opponent, go play a fighter. "Eye-for-eye" attitude should not extend to proper paladins.

Sebastian
2006-02-20, 05:45 PM
Yes, but now the hypothetical bandit is heavily wounded, defenseless and no threat to the sheriff or anyone else.

and, let's not forget, is in the courtroom with the judge present.

the role of judge, jury and executioner can be acceptable when you are in the middle of nowhere. It is less acceptable (imho) when the actual judge and jury are present.
Now let's me repeat anothe , and I hope last, time killing even the worse of the assassins in this situation it is not lawful, it is anti-lawful, it is like Miko was screaming "I am the law", it is, I was not clear enough, Chaotic.

Arachnophile
2006-02-20, 05:47 PM
:o :o :o

Belkar IMPALED!

:o :o :o

I finally did a crytogram!! ;D

Lao_Dragon_Ninja
2006-02-20, 05:57 PM
A paladin won't fall because they commit one chaotic act. And the way some people consider things to be evil. "Miko breathed, killing thousands of innocent microscopic organisms. She must lose her paladin powers." Seriously, people put paladins up on some pedastal like they have uber powers (and they don't).

And Belker, he is Evil. Capital E, Evil. Evil. Evil. Evil. If Miko doesn't kill Belker (and she won't lose her powers if she does) the Giant should have Belker do that thing he suggested, turning to the the screen, saying "Hi, I'm CE!" and eat a puppy.

Conman815
2006-02-20, 06:02 PM
I think that Lord Shojo, or the being of Goodness thingy will stop Miko from killing Belkar, because the Order of the Stick has been deemed not guilty, meaning that none of them (including Belkar) can be executed. Just my speculation.

PhoeKun
2006-02-20, 06:02 PM
You know, in all the excitement of the verdict and the shattering glass (best sound effect since WANG), I forgot to mention a very important point.

To that end: regardless of what happens next, Roy owes Miko. Yes, really. You all saw he was this close to telling Mr. Scruffy off. I don't want to think about what might have happened to him if he had gotten that sentence out.

Just something random to think about...

Sarathi
2006-02-20, 06:02 PM
I think we need to look at the situation the two are in before we say that miko is placing herself over the law. She is not attacking Belkar over the destruction of the gate, but for escaping prison and murdering a guard.

Ok so they have been running all over the castle, she has been burned, stabbed, and slammed with a sheet of lead. She is bleeding and wounded, and finally gets the upper hand she needs. THey slamm through a pane of glass as she stabbs Belkar. He falls prone and she goes to finish him off.

In the heat of battle a person is not able to obsorb every bit of information. People are saying that since she is going to kill him int he court room that it is some how unlawfull. They just slammed through glass pane and now has the chance to finish this murderer off. It doesn't show her looking around at her surroundings. Just them slamming through the window. She obviously made it fine , but Belkar fell and left himself open. She now how the chance to finish him before he causes any more damage. Remember we are the ones assuming hes uncouncious or helpless, or that she is even aware of his helplessness.

WeaponMasterLDO
2006-02-20, 06:06 PM
That was worth waiting the whole weekend for. Now I just have to wait for wednesday. :'(

Silfir
2006-02-20, 06:10 PM
Because you are utterly and completely in the wrong? There is nothing wrong with a paladin killing an Evil opponent in a fight. But here the fight has ended and the Evil opponent is defeated, injured and helpless. If you want your character to kill a helpless (albeit Evil) opponent, go play a fighter. "Eye-for-eye" attitude should not extend to proper paladins.

Strangely enough, I find it not too hard to disagree with you here.

Miko tried to kill a utterly helpless LG character she fought before (Roy), whom she believed to be Evil, and did not fall. Yeah, I know she didn't actually kill him, but she TRIED. She very clearly wanted Roy to die, after having fought with him to the point of him lying there helpless. More important: No one of the OoTS ever argued that what she did was evil; and since they were at least once very angry with Miko, the accusation would've come up sooner or later if anyone, i. e. Roy, thought that it was a valid accusation.

Roy is not a paladin, but is a paladin's code something only paladins know about? Wouldn't a fairly well educated person as Roy is know something about the code of a paladin?

I trust Roy in this matter. He was once in the same situation that Belkar is now in, and never blamed Miko for trying to kill him. He thinks she didn't do anything wrong, and so do I.

Plus, the situation is a different one now. Belkar is in fact EVIL. Miko knows this. They fought, and now Belkar appears to have lost. He is in the same situation Roy was once in, only that he most apparently killed a fellow paladin of Miko's, and is - actually - evil. (The blue eyes may imply that Miko even learnt from the Roy indicent and cast Detect Evil just to be sure Belkar hasn't, somehow, changed alignment somewhere, and still is evil.)

If no one steps in, I fear Miko has very well the right to kill Belkar now.

Just to remember: A paladin could not win ANY fight with an Evil person if he stopped as soon as he has a possibility to kill the Evil person. They're Lawful Good, not Lawful Stupid. ;)

Of course, the other side of the medal... Belkar had the chance to coup de grace an unconscious Miko, and denied it. Now Miko has the chance to kill a helpless Belkar... Ironic if she were to seize it now.

Anyway, awesome strip! (Better say it before I get clubbered for being too wordy...)

Nyxx
2006-02-20, 06:25 PM
Best strip ever ^^. The effect of the glass being broken and them falling made me speechless for quite sometime.

I'll comment the running Miko goes bad *spoiler* theory, though I don't really know how a theory can actually be a spoiler ^^;;;



I have no idea wether Miko will lose her powers or not, but, as Roy has already stated, she isn't much different than a bully, paladin or not (and NO, I'm not saying Belkar is good here). Anyway, pretend such a thing happens and she becomes a blackguard. Next time she'd meet with OOTS, she'd have the "smite good" ability, and well... Belkar will be the only one immune to it. I'm not saying such will happen; just that, if it did, well... ROTFLMAO. Poetic justice, to all of you ^^ ;D

Now, about what my dearest Haley said (Elan being a genius and such).

I believe the "genius thing" Elan said was "I mean, you LOOK mad, but looks can e deceiving". I interpreted it as "they were absolved because the gods aren't really mad at them. Otherwise - as clearly stated by Haley - they'd be guilty". Now, why the hell the trial them? If the gods are not really upset, then why taking the OOTS for trial? Well, Elan did say something else... "Did you vote for the other guy?". I might be delusional here, but this statement wouldn't leave my mind... Well, there are several gods... and I presume the Saphire Guard responds to only some of them - the Lawful Good ones... maybe there is a dissemption of sorts between the gods regarding the subejct. Or maybe their real penalty is yet to come... I don't have a clue ^^;;;

Now a personal question... due to the deal between the former portal makers, one could not interphere in the other's portal. Why then did the Saphire Guard went behind the OOTS? Can they do that?

And if they can do so, aren't there any other "gatekeepers" that will be after the OOTS? I mean, ok if the old guys protected their gate the way they saw fit, but not leaving... I don't know, children or a guard a themselves, someone else that knew the secret "just in case"? Or would they just pray everything went smooth through the centuries and if not leave all in dear trusted Sojo's descendant's hands? No "we need new heroes" emergency plan?

Thanks for reading all, and sorry for my grammar and forgetness of any facts. Hugs to all.

Illsbane
2006-02-20, 06:26 PM
Lawful Good does not equal Lawful Honest. A city's ruler usually has to be pretty devious to get things done, as must the leader of an order of what amounts to special agents. And possibly, so do deities and Archons.
... This whole trial was a setup, is what I think Haley realized. (Sorry if someone else already said this.) The Order of the Stick is needed to perform a mission that the Azure Guard couldn't. Like go to the other gates and protect them from Xykon ...? But they had to go through the motions to make it look like they didn't want to recruit the OOTSers, but to sentence them. Sneaky and underhanded ... and quite possibly effective; we were fooled for a while, weren't we?

The_Weirdo
2006-02-20, 06:34 PM
Lawful Good does not equal Lawful Honest. A city's ruler usually has to be pretty devious to get things done, as must the leader of an order of what amounts to special agents. And possibly, so do deities and Archons.
... This whole trial was a setup, is what I think Haley realized. (Sorry if someone else already said this.) The Order of the Stick is needed to perform a mission that the Azure Guard couldn't. Like go to the other gates and protect them from Xykon ...? But they had to go through the motions to make it look like they didn't want to recruit the OOTSers, but to sentence them. Sneaky and underhanded ... and quite possibly effective; we were fooled for a while, weren't we?


But, in this case, would they send the smite-happy paladin that tried to kill Roy, thus invalidating the "recruitment"?

Kaerou
2006-02-20, 06:36 PM
Hurrah for Miko! I hope Haley doesnt do something stupid and shoot Miko in the back... he has in fact murdered one of the Paladins and defiled the corpse before now, even if they let the rest of the order go, Belkar has murdered and they probably cant do a thing to help him now. If they intervene they're helping a murderer (though they dont know it, but they know Belkar, so know he's done something evil/wrong here)

If Belkar had just waited a few hours longer at most, he'd have been a free.. half man.

Silfir
2006-02-20, 06:45 PM
Hurrah for Miko! I hope Haley doesnt do something stupid and shoot Miko in the back... he has in fact murdered one of the Paladins and defiled the corpse before now, even if they let the rest of the order go, Belkar has murdered and they probably cant do a thing to help him now. If they intervene they're helping a murderer (though they dont know it, but they know Belkar, so know he's done something evil/wrong here)

If Belkar had just waited a few hours longer at most, he'd have been a free.. half man.

Actually, if they intervene now, they're helping a member of their party. I don't know whether they're aware if and to what extent Belkar is evil, yet he is a member of their party. Miko is not. So if the OotS is anything of a decent party, they'll know who they'll help. Plus, all of them, except maybe Durkon, despise Miko.

If they thought Belkar deserved to die in any way, would they keep him in their party?

Kish
2006-02-20, 06:50 PM
If they thought Belkar deserved to die in any way, would they keep him in their party?
Elan wouldn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=263)

xyzchyx
2006-02-20, 06:51 PM
well, apparently as long as he don't know is doing evil a paladin can do anything (hint, play a 3 Int paladin and you can away with everything)
First of all, no. A paladin cannot do anything he likes if he doesn't know he's doing something wrong. Knowingly or unknowingly commiting an evil act WILL strip a paladin of his powers. If he does it unknowingly, however, he may be able to atone for the act, reacquire his abilities, able to again progress as a paladin. If he does so willfully, he permanently loses the ability to advance as a paladin.

Second of all, if the player playing the Paladin knows his character's actions are wrong, and is not doing them under duress (ie, charmed or what have you), then the character is assumed to know this as well, regardless of low stat scores. Bang! Permanent loss of paladinhood.

Leveller
2006-02-20, 06:53 PM
You people make me sad. How can you hope that the evil (not evil as alignement) antagonist Miko kills the charming protagonist Belkar who has been with us from the start? :'(

If Belkar is removed from the strip I'll get depressed.

mr.bob
2006-02-20, 06:56 PM
The climatic frame in this comic disproves anybody who's ever said Rich can't draw.

Lady_Orc
2006-02-20, 06:57 PM
Murder!? To deliver the finishing move to a killer who has killed a fellow paladin, who has set you on fire and stabbed you several times, after you've run him through and he's at death's door after a long protracted battle... is murder?

Coup De Grace FTW. Smite, Miko, smite!

Yep. Murder. If a paladin kills a helpless enemy, *despite* having 100% chance of taking him in custody with no bloodletting, then it's murder. Doesn't really matter what he tried to do before, it's the situation right now that matters.

Sebastian
2006-02-20, 07:01 PM
First of all, no. A paladin cannot do anything he likes if he doesn't know he's doing something wrong.
Yes, I know it. That was SARCASM!!!

If you have read the rest of the message you have noted that I'd said exactly the same things you've said.

LenDragon
2006-02-20, 07:02 PM
Awsome.
Nuff said.

Dark_Nemesis
2006-02-20, 07:14 PM
I'd have to say something else is at work here, with the crazy lookin' eyes and all. But that's just me...

Similar to what I was thinking. The only other times we have seen different colored eyes were (without going through the archives)

-Sabine (while in demon form, red eyes)
-Samantha (while using sorcery, purple eyes)
-Miko (while using Detect Evil, blue eyes)

I don't think Miko is using Detect Evil. But, with how diverse the reasons for colored eyes have been, I can't find a connection that makes sense...

Lady_Orc
2006-02-20, 07:15 PM
I'm tired of retyping the same stuff over and over and over. Miko shouldn't fall for killing an evil creature who has attacked her, killed a guard, attempted to attack her horse, attacked her lawyer, and painted a blood mural. He is on the run and innocent of the charges or no, he has done specifically evil things while attempting to escape. No win for Belkar, because Miko won't fall. We have no clue whether or not she is blinded by rage and would not listen to someone telling her to stop, but either way, she did not stop when Durkon told her to in fight #1 and then still retained her paladin powers. I like Belkar, but the way his fans seem to repeat the same process over and over(Smiling, Fall! Using detect evil, Fall! Killing an incapacitated prisoner, no matter what the circumstance, Fall!) really annoys me.

*plays the world's smallest violin*

Your annoyance really doesn't concern me, you know. I'll repeat myself as often as I care to - I can in no way consider it LG to kill a helpless prisoner in the middle of a courtroom. You might as well condone a paladin leading a lynch mob.

*shrugs* Now, it is of course only the Giant who can decide what Miko can or can not get away with in his story universe. The above is my opinon though, and fortunately for me the opinon of all the people I play with.

thatwolfguy
2006-02-20, 07:19 PM
everybody's talking about wether or not miko is allowed to kill belkar because he's evil and she's a paladin. lemme ask, does it make a difference if it's "personal, just between the two of them...you know, a matter of honor" [cough] remember that? so how does that fit into the whole paladin killing bad-guy thing?

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-20, 07:20 PM
Miko tried to kill a utterly helpless LG character she fought before (Roy), whom she believed to be Evil, and did not fall. Yeah, I know she didn't actually kill him, but she TRIED.

An important distinction, which to me renders your following points as rather moot indeed. You see, I rather believe that IF Miko had killed Roy then, she would have lost her status. She did not kill him, and I can only imagine her God let this pass, considering that she was misinformed about Roy's actions.


More important: No one of the OoTS ever argued that what she did was evil

Yes, because they acknowledged that she was mislead and acted on information that turned out to be false?


Roy is not a paladin, but is a paladin's code something only paladins know about? Wouldn't a fairly well educated person as Roy is know something about the code of a paladin?

To me it seems that Roy not only knows enough about a paladin's code, he also knows that there are two types of paladins, of which he obviously classifies Miko as the judgmental Lawful Stoopid type.


I trust Roy in this matter. He was once in the same situation that Belkar is now in, and never blamed Miko for trying to kill him. He thinks she didn't do anything wrong, and so do I.

I believe he made his thoughts clear when he said that Miko follows the letter of the alignment description and ignoring its intent. In short, Roy simply thinks that she acted like a stereotypical Lawful Stupid.


Plus, the situation is a different one now. Belkar is in fact EVIL. Miko knows this. They fought, and now Belkar appears to have lost. He is in the same situation Roy was once in, only that he most apparently killed a fellow paladin of Miko's, and is - actually - evil.

However, Miko is in a different situation as well. She is not in some remote area, far from civilization. There is a perfect possibility to put Belkar on trial for his crimes - a clear path for a Lawful character to take, is it not?


(The blue eyes may imply that Miko even learnt from the Roy indicent and cast Detect Evil just to be sure Belkar hasn't, somehow, changed alignment somewhere, and still is evil.)

*chuckles* Oh, that is SO funny! :D Why does the alignment matter in this moment, as you have said for yourself, Belkar's crimes against humanity are so numerous in any case. Would it matter if they were comitted by a CN or a LE character?


Just to remember: A paladin could not win ANY fight with an Evil person if he stopped as soon as he has a possibility to kill the Evil person. They're Lawful Good, not Lawful Stupid. ;)

They're not Lawful Good if they coup de grace a defeated Evil, though.

BURNhollywoodBURN
2006-02-20, 07:34 PM
OMG! :o :o :o :o
If that bitch will kill Belkar I... I... :'(

Just like Elan!!

mec
2006-02-20, 07:38 PM
I second that. 1600x1200, please. :)

With a caption that says: Is it Monday yet?

BURNhollywoodBURN
2006-02-20, 07:40 PM
WAIT A SECOND! How did Miko know that Belkar was evil? Rich, I'm sorry, but we definetly missed something big :( :(

Eriol
2006-02-20, 07:41 PM
Killing an evil being is not wrong. And since you can objectively determine that, and since she already has (smite evil in off-comic fight) it is OK to kill him.

Kish
2006-02-20, 07:44 PM
WAIT A SECOND! How did Miko know that Belkar was evil?
By him making it abundantly obvious the whole time she was with the Order, maybe?

Velvet_Devil
2006-02-20, 07:52 PM
And Belker, he is Evil. Capital E, Evil. Evil. Evil. Evil.


Yes, we know this. How again?

Sure, he might have foiled every attempt to detect his alignment. But we *know* he's evil, right?

He's made so many snide remarks and jokes about doing evil things that surely he does them, right? Because to joke about something is the same as doing it? We *know* he's evil. We know it.

And we, like so many others, never question what we *know*.



edit: typo

BURNhollywoodBURN
2006-02-20, 07:59 PM
Translated it. Beaten by a few minutes. Of course.

Possible spoiler: Here's something to paste into your browser URL bar. If you don't want to know the translation, don't copy and paste it.

javascript:var from = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVW XYZ"; var to = "vigycn*bfphu*mkrdjsaetlo*wVIGYCN*BFPHU*MKRLJSAETL O*W"; var mes = prompt("Enter text to decode:", "Zktv? Fx, ztbv, vktv aupqbev qxusf'v ntou sufsu. Qtzs qxf'v zxpo vktv ztd. B'au suuf ufxlck xi nd Vkbuaus' Clbwq ipbufqs sufv vx jpbsxf vx ofxz vktv vkbs skxlwq ktau huuf t exfabevbxf. Hlv... hlv bv qxusf'v ntou tfd sufsu! Fx! B'n fxt XO, vkbs zkxwu vpbtw ntqu FX SUFSU! Zu ZUPU clbwvd! Bv skxlwq ktau huuf t clbwvd aupqbev! B etf lfqupsvtfq bi vkud ztfvuq vx puqleu vku sufvufeu qlu vx vku ebpelnsvtfeus, hlv bv skxlwq ktau svbww huuf t clbwvd aupqbev. Xk, fuaup nbfq, B qxf'v ofxz zkd B'n hxvkupbfc. Ztbv--Uwtf, zktv qbq dxl rlsv std? Xk nd cxqs, Uwtf! Vktv's bv! Uwtf, dxl'pu t cufbls!"); var mes = (mes == null ? "" : mes); var res=""; for(var i = 0; i < mes.length; i++) {var j = from.indexOf(mes.charAt(i)); res += (j == -1 ? mes.charAt(i) : to.charAt(j)); } if (res != "") alert(res);


NOA okay? You made a mistake there, pal.

Grimblade
2006-02-20, 08:01 PM
Just to add my 2 cp to the Miko debate...

Judging by her expression, I'd say that the primary reason Miko wants to kill Belkar is either anger or hatred, and I would personally consider killing for that reason to be evil. It doesn't matter what Belkar did before, since it seems like Miko wants to kill him for personal reasons rather than as punishment. If the two were still locked in combat, self-defense might be a reason for killing him, but now he's pretty much incapacitated, so she is no longer in any direct danger from him. I don't know if killing someone out of rage or hatred is evil enough to cause her to fall, but I would think it would be.

On a side note, I hope Belkar doesn't die (at least not permanently)! He's too funny, despite being psychopathic!

Anyway, grats on the great comic, Giant, and I second (third? fourth?) the motion to get a wallpaper from that panel.

Now to sit back and wait for the comic on Wednesday.

...

On second thought, does anyone have a spare flux capacitor I could borrow?

Flak_Razorwill
2006-02-20, 08:02 PM
Is the "CEEESH!" pronounced "keesh!"? If so, why? I've never heard of that one before.

I would have preferred "SMASH!" because otomatopoea-wise, it sort of sounds like a window breaking, AND defines what's happening.

Hawkeye
2006-02-20, 08:08 PM
A few points I want to make

1. Totally awesome strip, first the not guilty verdict and the celebrations, and then Miko and belkar crashing through the window at the end. Priceless.

2. I think that the Miko/Belkar discussion has picked apart every single event and opinions. In this thread. At least 5 times. I have looked at these posts, have seen the pro's and con's of each arguement and I have decided if I agree with one side or the other. I have my own opinions, and I'm not going to post these here because they have been discussed and no more has to be said about them.

3. Anyone want to bet that the rght. hon. Mr Giant is going to cut away to a different plot line before the resultion of this cliffhanger? I say he's evil enough to do that.

(due to the typo in the cryptogram I have my surname in this comic. Yay!)

Sylvius
2006-02-20, 08:08 PM
There's no sliding scale.

If a Paladin is empowered to kill evil beings out in the middle or nowhere at the end of an epic battle, then she's empowered to do so right in the middle of this courtroom.

If a Paladin is not empowered to kill an evil being right in the middle of this courtroom, then that evil beoing out in the middle of nowhere would have to be trussed up and hauled back into town to face trial. What's right and good doesn't depend upon circumstances. It can't - else it would be too open to interpretation. Paladins need to KNOW WITH CERTAINTY that what they do is right.

Generally, I fall on the Paladins are not law enforcement; Paladins are the law side of the argument.

And yet, I still don't want Belkar to die. I'd rather he'd killed Miko and made her into a hat when he had the chance.

And on the long-dead blood mural issue... offense != harm. There was nothing a priori evil about the blood mural, thus rendering the argument about whether it was actually a blood mural entirely moot.

xrestassuredx
2006-02-20, 08:10 PM
NOA okay? You made a mistake there, pal.

No, the "mistake" is in the original comic, where that one letter retains its "original" form (t) instead of the "Haley-speak" form (v).

.. every comic thus far with more than a single line of Haley speak has had a similar single letter that didn't get "garbled" when she said it.

Nyxx
2006-02-20, 08:15 PM
I don't know it it really matter - for the paladin's code if the paladin has somthing against that particular bad guy or not. I don't really think it matters if it is revenge or not (Sojo was a revengeful guy too), only if the guy in question deserved it (was truely evil) or not. Of course, you can't go out killing evil people who haven't sone anything yet. And of course, if you can choose to imprisionate the evildoer, you should do so. I mean, killing someone who you can control (aka prevent him from doing evil somehow) is denying him the chance to regret his former actions and becoming good (no matter how far fetched such possibility may seem).

Being a paladin is not about going around smiting evil people randomlessly. It's about protecting what is good and maybe setting an example for others to follow. If one can choose life, he'd better do it. People can change, and you shouldn't deny them the chance to do so (unless you have no other choice).

Belkar is "controllable" - he's with the order after all. Roy let's him stay to keep an eye on him. He doesn't need to die. If Miko does it, she'll be choosing wrong, putting her feelings over what's really the best way. Period.

It doesn't matter if it was a duel. She already won - her contestant is incapacitated. She doesn't need to kill him. DOESN'T NEED, understand? If she does that, she'll be wrong. Period.

xyzchyx
2006-02-20, 08:18 PM
Just to add my 2 cp to the Miko debate...

Judging by her expression, I'd say that the primary reason Miko wants to kill Belkar is either anger or hatred, and I would personally consider killing for that reason to be evil. Judgemental, perhaps. Arguably even wrong. But not evil. By definition, killing an evil creature in combat is not an evil act.


It doesn't matter what Belkar did before, since it seems like Miko wants to kill him for personal reasons rather than as punishment. If the two were still locked in combat, self-defense might be a reason for killing him, but now he's pretty much incapacitated, so she is no longer in any direct danger from him. I don't know if killing someone out of rage or hatred is evil enough to cause her to fall, but I would think it would be.

I've said it before here... the only reason this is even an issue is because Belkar is a (well loved) character in the OotS comic, and a lot of people would be upset to see him go. They are therefore attempting to rationalize it with the view that Miko herself would have to be evil for doing him in, but in fact that is not the case.

I like the li'l guy too, but call a spade a spade here. Belkar does, all things considered, deserve to die. Miko has perfectly just cause to not take his incapacitated state as an indication that she should refrain from further action, as he has been known to be deceptive in the past, costing a perhaps less than quick-witted Saphire Guard his life.

BURNhollywoodBURN
2006-02-20, 08:22 PM
Yeah, I'm hoping Belkar lives. He should... there's enough healing around to bring him back, even if he might have to be hit with a Raise Dead and lose a level. (Oh, wait, that would be the barbarian level... ouch.)


Am I the only one here who remembers that Belkar is a PC? Of course he lives! Proff:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=165

Tariskat
2006-02-20, 08:22 PM
Does anyone else wonder who Elan voted for? I've read (most) of the many posts on Miko vs. Belkar, Falling, etc, so I won't touch it. But Let's have some more theories on what Haley was talking about. Or is that spoiler material?

Tawkis
2006-02-20, 08:22 PM
Huzzah!! Great one...

my .02 on the great debte of #284..
Miko killing Belkar is NOT evil, but it is Chaotic. IMO Miko shouldn't fall for it, but I view paladins as being more beholden to good than law.