How to revamp Assassin Death Attack

[liquidformat]

So I wanted to see what others have done to make the Assassin's Death Attack an actual worth while ability. As it stands it really is a nightmare, do nothing for 3 rounds then make a melee sneak attack, if successful then paralyze or kill target with fort save DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier. Pretty horrid ability that really isn't worth using.

So I had two thoughts, first is dump the three rounds, maybe also melee requirement and adjust it to be fort save DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier+bonus based on number of sneak attack die you remove from damage. Maybe 2x # of SN removed?

The other idea I had is just replacing it with Slayer of Domiel's Death Touch ability.

Anyways let me know your thoughts about these two ideas and anything you have done around your table to try and fix this ability.

Thanks!

[el minster]

There is a spell in complete mage which makes it easier to use.

[Doctor Despair]

So I wanted to see what others have done to make the Assassin's Death Attack an actual worth while ability. As it stands it really is a nightmare, do nothing for 3 rounds then make a melee sneak attack, if successful then paralyze or kill target with fort save DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier. Pretty horrid ability that really isn't worth using.

I'll take a moment to respond to your initial thoughts here. It is a horrible ability, but not for the reason you're thinking. It's a horrible ability because, without early-entry optimization, you don't gain access to a death attack until a level where many enemies have access to an immunity to death effects. It doesn't matter if you can do it as an immediate action, no-save ability if the enemy is just immune to it.

That it takes three rounds, however, does limit its use in combat. In a traditional melee, assuming the enemies fail the save every time, you probably end up doing approximately the same amount of "damage" as if you had optimized sneak attack, since you eliminate the same amount of foes. However, that limitation should be taken for what it is: an indication that this ability is not meant to be used in a traditional melee, or at least not used for its power. When combined with the feats Frightful Presence and Mortifying Strike, you can frighten a bunch of lower-level enemies surrounding the higher-level enemy you assassinated, making you a somewhat effective debuffer, but the death attack itself is useful in starting (or ending) fights during surprise rounds.



So I had two thoughts, first is dump the three rounds, maybe also melee requirement and adjust it to be fort save DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier+bonus based on number of sneak attack die you remove from damage. Maybe 2x # of SN removed?

The other idea I had is just replacing it with Slayer of Domiel's Death Touch ability.

Anyways let me know your thoughts about these two ideas and anything you have done around your table to try and fix this ability.

Thanks!

The Slayer's Deathtouch ability has the benefit in that it doesn't require a save, so no nat 20s, but doesn't affect nonevil creatures, and I don't think its "DCs" are as good. Your hitpoints go up a lot more each level than your saves -- consider that you add your con to your fort save once, but add it each level to your HP.

With early entry to the assassin classes, you can end up with fairly high DCs, especially at early levels. Consider something like this...


1: Rogue (Least Dragonmark, Craven)
3 Greater Bloodline Levels
Pay 81 gold for a bard to use Inspire Greatness on you and grant you temporary hitdie (or use the lycanthropy trick, or the polymorph into a barghast/dusk giant trick)
Pay 530 gold for a psion to use "psychic reformation" and reallocate your skill levels
2: Assassin [Death Attack DC = 10 + 4 (Effective Assassin Levels Counting Bloodlines) + Int (presumably for a total of at least 18)]
3: Black Dog (Mortifying Strike, retrain Least Dragonmark into Favored in Guild - Jaezred Chaulssin)
4. Black Dog [DC = 10 + 4 (Effective Assassin Levels) + 5 (Effective Black Dog Levels) + 4 (Favored in Guild) + Int (presumably for a total of at least 27)]
5: Assassin
6: Assassin (Southern Magician, retrain Craven into Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kukri)
7: Black Flame Zealot (Retrain EWP: Kukri into Frightening Presence)
8: Assassin (Retrain Southern Magician into Darkstalker)
9: Assassin (Ability Focus: Death Attack) [DC: 10 + 8 (Assassin) + 5 (Black Dog) + 4 (Black Flame Zealot) + 4 (Favored in Guild) + 2 (Ability Focus) + 2 (Assassin's Dagger) + Int (presumably for a total of at least 39)]


This should work very well if you want to build an assassin around using its death attack ability, but at a certain level many enemies (perhaps the enemies most worth trying to assassinate) will just begin to be immune to the ability. Hence, early access is needed to make the ability viable as-is.

Removing the wait-time would make the ability very overpowered unless it was significantly retooled, as it would provide in-combat damage equal to completely downing one enemy per round. Perhaps consider one or both of these forms to more balance it:


Instead of eliminating the wait, reduce it to one round, offering a slightly more reasonable limitation for combat utility

Remove the restriction that the enemy not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy from the study period; instead, allow that taking damage during the study interrupts the assassins' concentration and requires them to begin the study again

On a successful save against the death mode of the death attack (or if the target is immune to death effects), the targets takes damage equal to 1/2 its total HP.



However, be aware that these changes also empower the mode of just paralyzing everyone in combat and ignoring the death mode entirely. I think it's probably still fine, given it allows a save, requires a sneak attack, and can only be used every other round.

[King of Nowhere]

what i did to buff it was not making it a death effect. death effects are magic, this is a regular wound. call it an attack for 1000 damage, if you want. anyway, no immunities.
of course you can't use it in combat, but if you can study your opponent while hiding your chances are pretty good.

i crafted an npc assassin with that. she was elderly and no longer fit for direct combat, especially against a high level party. but she had a crazy high disguise, and could deliver a dc 30 death attack. she would lose herself in the crowd where she'd gain the three rounds of study, then she would hit with a concealed weapon and use a quickened dimension door to escape. she was a puzzle enemy, meant to challenge the party to find a way to stop her. i didn't even roll combat when they managaed to spot her in advance and hit with dimensional anchor.
of course i wouldn't have done that without making true resurrection available. she was meant to be a nuisance and a drain of resources, mostly. she was pretty successful, managed a fair amount of ambushes and dropped one or two pcs

[Doctor Despair]

what i did to buff it was not making it a death effect. death effects are magic, this is a regular wound. call it an attack for 1000 damage, if you want. anyway, no immunities.
of course you can't use it in combat, but if you can study your opponent while hiding your chances are pretty good.


That is a large buff. There are a lot of ways to get off a sneak attack on things that can't be sneak attacked, but I've yet to find one that bypasses immunity to death effects. If there was one change I'd want to the ability, it would be that, rather than the other things I discussed. OP seemed like they wanted to make it more useful in combat, though, which is why I focused my suggestions into that field.

Love the flavor of that NPC challenge, too! :)

[InvisibleBison]

It's a horrible ability because, without early-entry optimization, you don't gain access to a death attack until a level where many enemies have access to an immunity to death effects.

This is incorrect. Without early entry, you can take your first level of assassin at 6th level. Of the 29 CR 6 enemies in the Monster Manual, only two are immune to death effects.

Also, where does it say that death attack is a death effect?

[Doctor Despair]

This is incorrect. Without early entry, you can take your first level of assassin at 6th level. Of the 29 CR 6 enemies in the Monster Manual, only two are immune to death effects.

Also, where does it say that death attack is a death effect?

I suppose my experience is a little jaded because my most frequent DM uses a lot of characters with class levels as enemies, not monsters.

With regard to your second point... that is... a very fair question, and one I never thought to question. Possibly an oversight, but one that is very-much needed for assassins to be viable, IMO. Good find.

[liquidformat]

I'll take a moment to respond to your initial thoughts here. It is a horrible ability, but not for the reason you're thinking. It's a horrible ability because, without early-entry optimization, you don't gain access to a death attack until a level where many enemies have access to an immunity to death effects. It doesn't matter if you can do it as an immediate action, no-save ability if the enemy is just immune to it.

That it takes three rounds, however, does limit its use in combat. In a traditional melee, assuming the enemies fail the save every time, you probably end up doing approximately the same amount of "damage" as if you had optimized sneak attack, since you eliminate the same amount of foes. However, that limitation should be taken for what it is: an indication that this ability is not meant to be used in a traditional melee, or at least not used for its power. When combined with the feats Frightful Presence and Mortifying Strike, you can frighten a bunch of lower-level enemies surrounding the higher-level enemy you assassinated, making you a somewhat effective debuffer, but the death attack itself is useful in starting (or ending) fights during surprise rounds.



The Slayer's Deathtouch ability has the benefit in that it doesn't require a save, so no nat 20s, but doesn't affect nonevil creatures, and I don't think its "DCs" are as good. Your hitpoints go up a lot more each level than your saves -- consider that you add your con to your fort save once, but add it each level to your HP.

With early entry to the assassin classes, you can end up with fairly high DCs, especially at early levels. Consider something like this...


1: Rogue (Least Dragonmark, Craven)
3 Greater Bloodline Levels
Pay 81 gold for a bard to use Inspire Greatness on you and grant you temporary hitdie (or use the lycanthropy trick, or the polymorph into a barghast/dusk giant trick)
Pay 530 gold for a psion to use "psychic reformation" and reallocate your skill levels
2: Assassin [Death Attack DC = 10 + 4 (Effective Assassin Levels Counting Bloodlines) + Int (presumably for a total of at least 18)]
3: Black Dog (Mortifying Strike, retrain Least Dragonmark into Favored in Guild - Jaezred Chaulssin)
4. Black Dog [DC = 10 + 4 (Effective Assassin Levels) + 5 (Effective Black Dog Levels) + 4 (Favored in Guild) + Int (presumably for a total of at least 27)]
5: Assassin
6: Assassin (Southern Magician, retrain Craven into Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kukri)
7: Black Flame Zealot (Retrain EWP: Kukri into Frightening Presence)
8: Assassin (Retrain Southern Magician into Darkstalker)
9: Assassin (Ability Focus: Death Attack) [DC: 10 + 8 (Assassin) + 5 (Black Dog) + 4 (Black Flame Zealot) + 4 (Favored in Guild) + 2 (Ability Focus) + 2 (Assassin's Dagger) + Int (presumably for a total of at least 39)]


This should work very well if you want to build an assassin around using its death attack ability, but at a certain level many enemies (perhaps the enemies most worth trying to assassinate) will just begin to be immune to the ability. Hence, early access is needed to make the ability viable as-is.

Removing the wait-time would make the ability very overpowered unless it was significantly retooled, as it would provide in-combat damage equal to completely downing one enemy per round. Perhaps consider one or both of these forms to more balance it:


Instead of eliminating the wait, reduce it to one round, offering a slightly more reasonable limitation for combat utility

Remove the restriction that the enemy not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy from the study period; instead, allow that taking damage during the study interrupts the assassins' concentration and requires them to begin the study again

On a successful save against the death mode of the death attack (or if the target is immune to death effects), the targets takes damage equal to 1/2 its total HP.



However, be aware that these changes also empower the mode of just paralyzing everyone in combat and ignoring the death mode entirely. I think it's probably still fine, given it allows a save, requires a sneak attack, and can only be used every other round.

I am not a big fan of that level of early entry abuse but good information on Death attack, thanks for the insight.


what i did to buff it was not making it a death effect. death effects are magic, this is a regular wound. call it an attack for 1000 damage, if you want. anyway, no immunities.
of course you can't use it in combat, but if you can study your opponent while hiding your chances are pretty good.

i crafted an npc assassin with that. she was elderly and no longer fit for direct combat, especially against a high level party. but she had a crazy high disguise, and could deliver a dc 30 death attack. she would lose herself in the crowd where she'd gain the three rounds of study, then she would hit with a concealed weapon and use a quickened dimension door to escape. she was a puzzle enemy, meant to challenge the party to find a way to stop her. i didn't even roll combat when they managaed to spot her in advance and hit with dimensional anchor.
of course i wouldn't have done that without making true resurrection available. she was meant to be a nuisance and a drain of resources, mostly. she was pretty successful, managed a fair amount of ambushes and dropped one or two pcs

Wow that is a really awesome character concept and good thought on death attack. I have looked at similar adjustments for things like freedom of movement, mind blank, and immunities...

[Zanos]

I suppose my experience is a little jaded because my most frequent DM uses a lot of characters with class levels as enemies, not monsters.
What classes naturally get immunity to death effects? That immunity is usually a function of creature type(undead, constructs), not level. Even many high CR monsters are vulnerable to it, like Outsiders, Dragons, Giants, and the like.

[Doctor Despair]

What classes naturally get immunity to death effects? That immunity is usually a function of creature type(undead, constructs), not level. Even many high CR monsters are vulnerable to it, like Outsiders, Dragons, Giants, and the like.

Necropolitans, spellcasters, or people with WBL to employ spellcasters, or for Soulfire, Chokers of Life Protection, Life Rings, etc (which would commonly be NPCs worth assassinating for plot reasons). Perhaps I overstated how common of an issue it would be, but it feels pretty bad when you specialize your character for combat utility and end up encountering things immune to that. I suppose that's more of an issue of communication about expectations between the player and the DM though.

Edit: I haven't personally played an assassin, but I have built them, and my comment was based on my DM's habit of building fleshed out PCs as NPCs to populate the world and encounters, including protections and whatnot. As such, were I to use such a character, I'd run into those issues often. A vanilla campaign probably wouldn't have as much of an issue, I suppose.

[Zaq]

Going in a separate direction, what if you made it a large increase in SA damage (no save) rather than a save-or-die effect?

[Aotrs Commander]

If I may be so bold (because if nothign esle, if gives me somethoing to focus on for a few inutes), may I suggest what I did in my 3.Aotrs house-rules? I had previously made Assassin into an archtype of the PF Slayer, stealing the Investigator's Studied Strike and expaning on it, and then retrofitted a stand-alone version of that for what previously had been the Assassin prestige class (not the Exterminator).

(1st level would be mimimum character level 6, with the entry prerqs (5 ranks of Stealh (8 ranks of Hide and/or Move Silent in 3.5).)

Death Attack (Ex): At 1st level, if an exterminator makes a sneak attack with a weapon that successfully deals damage to his mark, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (exterminator’s choice). The mark must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the ½ the exterminator’s class level + his Intelligence modifier). If the saving throw fails against the kill effect, the target dies. (This is a Death effect). If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for D6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the exterminator.

If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the mark is immune to the exterminator’s Death Attack for the next 24 hours.

Exterminator’s Mark (Ex): At 1st level, the exterminator can select a creature to be his mark by taking a Move action to study it three times. An exterminator that deals Sneak Attack damage to a target can use an Immediate action to study the target in place of a Move action. (Note, unlike an Assassin, the exterminator cannot combine this action with with Studied target.)

The actions to not have to be consecutive, but the exterminator cannot miss more than 1 round between study actions or he must start again. A mark lasts for 1 minute.

After the first study action to study the target, the exterminator may substitute a full round’s* passive observation for a study action to study the target; the exterminator must be able to observe the target, which must be in line of sight; a target which has concealment, total concealment or is invisibility cannot be observed (unless the exterminator has abilities which let him see the target, such as blindsight). This allows the exterminator to take his normal actions, but he cannot make any attacks (including attacks of opportunity) that do not include the studied target or the round is wasted and counts as a missed round.

Alternatively, an exterminator can observe his target for three consecutive days (at least 8 hours of observation per day) to make the target his mark and his mark then remains in effect until the target is dead or he selects a new mark.



So you don't have to waste loads of actions on it, but you can burn enough to do it in two rounds if you want (and at 9th level you can use it 1/day without study). I thought that was a reasonable way of handling it. (And adding the substitute of day's worth of observation seemed both very flavourful and a good excuse for roleplaying (if a PC assassin) or part of the plot (for an NPC one).



I also added and modified the PF Assassin's ability to make sure the target STAYS dead. (Which is a good reason for the class/PrC existing - any mook with a sword can become and assassin kill someone for money or orders, but only an Assassin can make sure they don't come back...)



*As in 1 round, not one full-round action.