How could you play a tier 1 class without overshadowing lesser characters?

[el minster]

I just don't understand. In a recent low-level game my cleric killed all the enemies in one encounter while simultaneously healing all allies with a swift action. Seriously CoDs and at later levels wizards are pretty much an "I win button".

[The Viscount]

For some people, being really powerful and defeating encounters is fun, because it feels like winning, and they forget or don't care that ttrpgs are cooperative games.

[Zanos]

I'm curious about your build.

Anyway, you can always play a Tier 1 to the power level of your group. It's usually more fun for everyone when you aren't deliberately overshadowing your party members.

[Tvtyrant]

Have you ever noticed how Skyrim was the most popular Elder Scrolls game, and is about a power fantasy? T1 is like being the Chose-Simba of D&D. You can do whatever you want, the games normal limits are with careful application utterly removed.

Another genre is Isekai, which is often like being a T1 oracle type. "I know exactly what is going to happen and can always overcome it."

Edit: Also there is the subgame of optimization. I have never used a wand of Fell Drain Sonic Snap to kill low level enemies instantly save free and collect their wights, but knowing how to do it is fun. Likewise binding Elder Evils to destroy planes of existence or any other of a number of cool tricks. Rules are fun to play around in.

[el minster]

I used sacred purification and my dm likes undead.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sounds like your DM isn't providing a proper challenge. It's not a class problem, it's a class-versus-encounter problem. Try fighting a high-OP duel like the old Test of Spite (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?113644-Test-of-Spite-D-amp-D-3-5) and see how much of a walkover it is (I mean, it can still be, but it's not certain).

[newguydude1]

a mundane dies to everything.

monster with dr? he dies until he can get his hand on expensive cold iron or silver weapons coated with an oil of align weapon.
monster that flies? he dies until he learns how to use a bow well which is impossible with an existing character or finds a city that sells potions of fly.
monster with save or dies like fear effects? he dies until he makes enough money to buy an expensive item that lets him be immune to fear.
monsters that teleport? he dies until he learns how to use magic device a wand of dimensional anchor.
monster that grapples? he dies until he makes enough money to buy an expensive item that lets him teleport.

mundanes can only do anything if they have super expensive magic items that is only available in super populated cities because of their price. so mundanes are begging their dm "please please please please hand me a way to defeat the monster you threw at me because my character cant do anything except beg for money and shops until i die unless you hand me a way to win on a silver platter".

spellcasters on the other hand, can do everything with their spells and feats no items. so they find a way to win the game without a dm hand holding them and giving them money and making a way for you to win.

so how can you enjoy a mundane class?

[Xervous]

Checks subforum again.

Quite frankly if you were wiping the opposition like that I have a hard time imagining the martials would be getting much of a challenge. You picked the right spell, lowly trip fighter may very well have taken the fight solo with nothing expended beyond a charge or two of the lesser vigor wand if even.

[el minster]

Sounds like your DM isn't providing a proper challenge. It's not a class problem, it's a class-versus-encounter problem. Try fighting a high-OP duel like the old Test of Spite (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?113644-Test-of-Spite-D-amp-D-3-5) and see how much of a walkover it is (I mean, it can still be, but it's not certain).

So at level one facing 6 skeletons at first level is too low CR?

[InvisibleBison]

So at level one facing 6 skeletons at first level is too low CR?

If the 1st level party is able to defeat six skeletons without expending roughly one-quarter of their daily resources, then yes, it's not a level-appropriate encounter for that party.

[Chijinda]

I imagine in many cases, it's just a case where they have a particular image for their character, and a T1 class fits it best. If you want to make an Albus Dumbledore inspired character for your game of D&D... well.... Wizard is probably the best fit. Just because you're playing a T1 class doesn't mean you have to use T1 strategies-- you don't have to make the clone demiplane or cheese the ever loving heck out of Planar Binding. They're not enjoying "playing a broken class" they're enjoying playing Albus Dumbledore.

And as for going Tier 1 BECAUSE it's T1, I imagine lot to do with the Power Fantasy. Some people like to envision their character's being absolute BAMFs, or really like the image of those untouchable godlike figures in media, and want to try to replicate them. They love the image of someone coming up to their character, spitting off half a dozen titles and how they're here to destroy the party, and then their character going: "That's cute. Finger of Death."

[Quentinas]

a mundane dies to everything.

monster with dr? he dies until he can get his hand on expensive cold iron or silver weapons coated with an oil of align weapon.
monster that flies? he dies until he learns how to use a bow well which is impossible with an existing character or finds a city that sells potions of fly.
monster with save or dies like fear effects? he dies until he makes enough money to buy an expensive item that lets him be immune to fear.
monsters that teleport? he dies until he learns how to use magic device a wand of dimensional anchor.
monster that grapples? he dies until he makes enough money to buy an expensive item that lets him teleport.

mundanes can only do anything if they have super expensive magic items that is only available in super populated cities because of their price. so mundanes are begging their dm "please please please please hand me a way to defeat the monster you threw at me because my character cant do anything except beg for money and shops until i die unless you hand me a way to win on a silver platter".

spellcasters on the other hand, can do everything with their spells and feats no items. so they find a way to win the game without a dm hand holding them and giving them money and making a way for you to win.

so how can you enjoy a mundane class?

In an easy way, because D&D is not a game where you are a solo player that need to do everything alone, but you are in a team , and as a team one expect collaboration, so the wizard can do everything? Fine we know that tier 1 classes are so much stronger than mundane, but among friends even a mundane class can be fun as long as one collaborate with each other.
An example could be a low optimization campaign in which i'm now. We are level 7-8 , and we have an human wizard, a dwarf fighter, an human (i think) monk, and me a paladin. But i'm not focused on damage , but on healing and yes, i know that healing is worse than damage, but is still funny, because i'm helping the others (and without me they would have died not so much time ago because they have less healing than the amount i can provide) . A DM "job" is to provide fun to a group, issuing adeguate challenges to the member of the party , and yes is more difficult with a Tier 1 class optimized and a tier 5 class not optimized, but is part of the job talking to the players and let them see their error, maybe suggesting them some option to be more effective for example

[el minster]

If the 1st level party is able to defeat six skeletons without expending roughly one-quarter of their daily resources, then yes, it's not a level-appropriate encounter for that party.

You're jumping to conclusions. I will explain the situation. So when the fight starts the skeletons go first. They start by they attacking the rogue and getting into a scuffle with the fighter on the cleric's turn he uses Sacred Purification as a swift action to heal the rogue and vaporize the skeletons. They all die.

[newguydude1]

In an easy way, because D&D is not a game where you are a solo player that need to do everything alone, but you are in a team , and as a team one expect collaboration, so the wizard can do everything? Fine we know that tier 1 classes are so much stronger than mundane, but among friends even a mundane class can be fun as long as one collaborate with each other.
An example could be a low optimization campaign in which i'm now. We are level 7-8 , and we have an human wizard, a dwarf fighter, an human (i think) monk, and me a paladin. But i'm not focused on damage , but on healing and yes, i know that healing is worse than damage, but is still funny, because i'm helping the others (and without me they would have died not so much time ago because they have less healing than the amount i can provide) . A DM "job" is to provide fun to a group, issuing adeguate challenges to the member of the party , and yes is more difficult with a Tier 1 class optimized and a tier 5 class not optimized, but is part of the job talking to the players and let them see their error, maybe suggesting them some option to be more effective for example

thats not what i said. what i said is if the mundane wants to do anything at all he needs super expensive magic items. if you tell people upfront the only way you can play this class (fighter) is either by hoarding money and begging the dm to give you a shop to spend it on, or by having a wizard character that dedicates himself to casting spells on you i dont think anyone will play it. because no one wants to be useless until the dm gives him money and shops, and no one wants to force his friend to do nothing but support you.

so what your saying is that for t5 to enjoy themselves dms have to intentionally exclude all monsters that your mundane doesnt have magic items for which results in you just killing skeletons and zombies because balance to the table of mundanes.

[Evoker]

You're jumping to conclusions. I will explain the situation. So when the fight starts the skeletons go first. They start by they attacking the rogue and getting into a scuffle with the fighter on the cleric's turn he uses Sacred Purification as a swift action to heal the rogue and vaporize the skeletons. They all die.

In that case, your DM did one of two things:
Option One: He/she handed you a fight designed to let you show off your cool ability, and you did so.
Option Two: He/she handed you a fight designed to be difficult, but you trivialized it with the application of an ability he/she did not expect.

In either case, at the level you're at, either of the two options aren't connected to the tier of the class you're in. You (whether by or against the DM's design) used a fairly non-versatile ability, that will drop off quickly, to do what that ability is designed to do. Furthermore, that ability is very much disconnected from the tier of Cleric, and even more disconnected from a CoDzilla

Furthermore, option two is much less likely than option one. Perhaps the DM didn't expect you to roll quite as well and wipe out all of the skeletons, but it's fairly unlikely that they didn't realize that you had this option to deal with a large number of low-powered undead. And that's, most likely, why they threw that specific encounter at you, to allow you a moment in the spotlight with your cool ability.

[el minster]

It was definitely option two, he didn't really know what the ability did until I used it

[ChaosStar]

You're jumping to conclusions. I will explain the situation. So when the fight starts the skeletons go first. They start by they attacking the rogue and getting into a scuffle with the fighter on the cleric's turn he uses Sacred Purification as a swift action to heal the rogue and vaporize the skeletons. They all die.

So he used two feat slots to get a single ability he has to use Turn Undead attempts on that heals 1d8+Cha Mod to Living Creatures and deal 1d8+Cha Mod to Undead. So basically a Longsword hit to all Undead in 60 feet. To creatures with a d12 Hit Die. He must of rolled max with a +4 Cha Mod then, otherwise he couldn't of done that with a single use. Unless your DM was going easy on you and not using max HP for the Skeleton's single Hit Die. Seems decent, since there's a lot of other stuff he could of spent his feats on since Sacred Purification doesn't scale based on level.

[Rhyltran]

thats not what i said. what i said is if the mundane wants to do anything at all he needs super expensive magic items. if you tell people upfront the only way you can play this class (fighter) is either by hoarding money and begging the dm to give you a shop to spend it on, or by having a wizard character that dedicates himself to casting spells on you i dont think anyone will play it. because no one wants to be useless until the dm gives him money and shops, and no one wants to force his friend to do nothing but support you.

so what your saying is that for t5 to enjoy themselves dms have to intentionally exclude all monsters that your mundane doesnt have magic items for which results in you just killing skeletons and zombies because balance to the table of mundanes.

The game assumes wealth by level. If the mundane can't afford necessary magical gear or areas he can purchase said gear then the DM is no longer playing by the rules and is therefore needlessly shafting the martial classes. It has nothing to do with the mundanes "begging" for equipment. As long as wealth by level is followed it's quite trivial to keep up with the encounters and monster supernatural abilities. Wealth by level is expected as part of the Challenge Rating and is a measurement of balance.

Yes. Higher Tier classes aren't as beholden to wealth by level as mundanes. No one is arguing this but it still isn't much of a problem if the guidelines are at least somewhat followed.

[Evoker]

It was definitely option two, he didn't really know what the ability did until I used it

So again, this really doesn't feel connected to the problem of tiers. Your question is closer to "how can you have fun playing a class with anti-undead abilities" than a question of tiers. You'd have similar (although not the exact same) problem with a favored enemy(undead) ranger, or a level 4 paladin who took that feat, and both of those classes are very low tier. Tiers don't have to do exclusively with how powerful a class is, and especially not with what special abilities the class gets against specific monsters.

You're playing a class that's powerful against undead. That has almost nothing to do with the tier it's at, and most optimized builds make use of various feats to get more universal use out of their turning attempts, like domain focus feats or divine metamagic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sacred Purification is a very specific and fairly situational ability, and you found yourself in exactly the right situation to use it to its greatest effect. You're 1st level when it will be the most impactful, but as you gain levels you'll probably find that its effect becomes increasingly mediocre until it becomes completely insignificant. Had you taken Improved Turning instead, you probably could have destroyed most or all of them with a normal turn undead use.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So at level one facing 6 skeletons at first level is too low CR?
It's not a matter of CR so much as appropriate challenge.

To elaborate: Challenge Rating/Encounter Level is a rules construct intended to allow a DM to estimate whether an encounter is an appropriate challenge. However, it is not always (~often) inaccurate, and a DM should be ready to apply ad-hoc adjustments to pre-designed encounters depending on party makeup, if a set difficulty is required. (Not that the party shouldn't ever be SUPER EFFECTIVE, but there are limits--everything in moderation.)

Let's say that a DM has designed an encounter consisting of a swarm of mindless undead led by a powerful intelligent undead creature. It is intended to be a difficult fight that potentially requires the party to retreat and regroup. The undead are slow-moving, so retreat is relatively easy, but the undead also threaten the McGuffin, so retreat-and-regroup may take up too much time (i.e. there is time pressure). The fight's Encounter Level is an appropriate Party Level +2.

After designing the encounter, the DM hears that the players will have access to Chained command undead--in fact, the party necromancer has made it their signature trick, and will certainly have it available in every fight. This basically makes the encounter, as designed, a walkover in the making. The DM feels that for story purposes, simply walking up and protecting/obtaining the McGuffin with a single spell is a bit too easy--not to mention that the undead army gained in the process would overpower future encounters--so he makes sure that the powerful undead creature a Spellstitched creature with access to Chained command undead of its own, and the mindless undead have been created with Destruction Retribution and will suicide on command. This allows a test of will between the party necromancer and the undead creature, and reduces the long-term impact of the undead army, since a lot of them will be destroyed in the fight. Officially, the encounter is now Party Level + 3, but it's still not as hard as it might be for a party without any necromancers or clerics (which is fine).

N.B. If the party had had access to Chained command undead, but wouldn't ordinarily have it prepared, the encounter wouldn't need to be adjusted as much, because it would still be a difficult encounter if wandered into, and proper use of scouting and Divination that results in having the right spells prepared is a legitimate tactic.

So I guess the question is: is it strange that a cleric especially prepared to fight large numbers of weak undead beats a bunch of skeletons? Well, no. The skeletons you were fighting are probably 1 HD human skeletons (which is why they die to 1d8+CHA damage), which makes the encounter EL 2 (DMG p. 49 has a table). That is an appropriate challenge for a first-level party when engaged in head-on melee, but you fought them using specialized anti-undead abilities. Clerics are already supposed to be really good at killing undead to begin with, and this cleric has sunk two of their precious feats into killing groups of weak undead really quickly. Also, it should be noted that Sacred Purification scales really badly, so you can't expect to keep up this success even versus wolf skeletons (13 hp), let alone owlbear skeletons (32 hp).

tl;dr You won easily because the encounter played to your strengths. It's not a problem of tier 1 classes being insanely powerful. Anyone with the same feats could've done the same, regardless of tier.

[el minster]

So he used two feat slots to get a single ability he has to use Turn Undead attempts on that heals 1d8+Cha Mod to Living Creatures and deal 1d8+Cha Mod to Undead. So basically a Longsword hit to all Undead in 60 feet. To creatures with a d12 Hit Die. He must of rolled max with a +4 Cha Mod then, otherwise he couldn't of done that with a single use. Unless your DM was going easy on you and not using max HP for the Skeleton's single Hit Die. Seems decent, since there's a lot of other stuff he could of spent his feats on since Sacred Purification doesn't scale based on level.

medium skeletons have six hp

[InvisibleBison]

You're jumping to conclusions.

You asked a question and I answered it. How did I jump to a conclusion? For that matter, what conclusion did I jump to?

[Zanos]

So he used two feat slots to get a single ability he has to use Turn Undead attempts on that heals 1d8+Cha Mod to Living Creatures and deal 1d8+Cha Mod to Undead. So basically a Longsword hit to all Undead in 60 feet. To creatures with a d12 Hit Die. He must of rolled max with a +4 Cha Mod then, otherwise he couldn't of done that with a single use. Unless your DM was going easy on you and not using max HP for the Skeleton's single Hit Die. Seems decent, since there's a lot of other stuff he could of spent his feats on since Sacred Purification doesn't scale based on level.
This just seems like a case where a character has a build that is specifically powerful in this scenario. Clerics main feature that makes them T1, spellcasting, wasn't even relevant.

[Thunder999]

What's not to love about playing a tier 1 character?

You're an important and useful participant in literally everything, there's no fight you have to sit out, no encounter where you just can't do anything.
Many tier 1 casters allow for a great deal of flexibility, creativity and freedom in playstyle, none of that boring full attack every round nonsense.

[el minster]

You asked a question and I answered it. How did I jump to a conclusion? For that matter, what conclusion did I jump to?

we did use a quarter of our resources but thecleric just shut them down

[Evoker]

we did use a quarter of our resources but thecleric just shut them down

You didn't though. By your own admittance, the rogue was healed to full, and the only thing that was used was one of the cleric's turn undead attempts. Unless we're not being given the full story? If you're saying you would have used a quarter of your resources if the cleric hadn't done that, it's still not a balanced fight.

Are you saying that one of the cleric's turn undead attempts is a quarter of the parties resources? Because I can't see how that could possibly be the case, unless something very odd was happening.

[MeimuHakurei]

So as long as everyone plays in the same tier, the game can be balanced around it. Infinite loops and some other exploitable stuff will always need to be looked at (even if mainly Tier 1 classes can abuse them most consistently), but otherwise it depends on what kinda game style you like:

Tier 1: You're among the most powerful people in the world, have strong abilities for every facet of adventures and your opposition will be equally fantastic, capable of wiping out the world or even multiple worlds.
Example - Avengers: Endgame
Tier 2: You excel at a certain number of things and have answers to almost all problems, even if there'll be aspects where your options are more limited. You can still battle dimensional, world-breaking threats.
Example - Dragonball Z
Tier 3: You're broadly competent adventurers who may be good at several things or are an excellent specialist with a more narrow skillset. The fantastical is still readily available but no longer is spellcasting the end-all, be-all. Usually, the world conquering dark lord will be the climax of your adventure.
Example - Lord of the Rings
Tier 4: Your skills become more down to earth and it's likely you won't have an answer for a number of things, making preparation imperative. Taking the fight to the Dark Lord directly may not be possible, but maybe you can find a key weakness that makes his downfall possible.
Example - Conan the Barbarian
Tier 5: You will stand out with your abilities in a few things from a crowd, but not by a lot. Magic and supernatural powers are only barely available at this point. The adventure will generally only go with more worldly threats like foiling an assassination plot to seize the kingdom. Supernatural beasts will become terrifying as it is very difficult to face off against a myriad of defensive and offensive abilities.
Example - Darkest Dungeon
Tier 6: You're literally on par with the average citizen. You only have your wits and what you can scrounge up generally. Fighting the forces of evil is usually out of the question and your focus should be on just surviving these threats.
Example - This War of Mine

[tiercel]

tl;dr You won easily because the encounter played to your strengths. It's not a problem of tier 1 classes being insanely powerful. Anyone with the same feats could've done the same, regardless of tier.

For this specific case, mostly this (though I might argue it could be harder for “lesser tier” characters to win in a single action).

More generally, how “tier 1” plays in practice depends on your/your table’s playstyle. E.g. polymorph is a powerful, versatile, often rules-problematic spell, and could be played several ways, not limited to:


*gets out every allowed sourcebook containing monster entries and a massive Excel sheet cross-listing all possible abilities and stats, eager to select The One Optimum Form that will trivialize whatever encounter the DM describes
“Aw, heck, I just turn into a troll.”
“Aw, heck, I just turn the fighter into a troll.”
“Man, I don’t even polymorph. Not worth the hassle.”

[Elkad]

a mundane dies to everything.

monster with dr? he dies until he can get his hand on expensive cold iron or silver weapons coated with an oil of align weapon.
monster that flies? he dies until he learns how to use a bow well which is impossible with an existing character or finds a city that sells potions of fly.
monster with save or dies like fear effects? he dies until he makes enough money to buy an expensive item that lets him be immune to fear.
monsters that teleport? he dies until he learns how to use magic device a wand of dimensional anchor.
monster that grapples? he dies until he makes enough money to buy an expensive item that lets him teleport.

mundanes can only do anything if they have super expensive magic items that is only available in super populated cities because of their price. so mundanes are begging their dm "please please please please hand me a way to defeat the monster you threw at me because my character cant do anything except beg for money and shops until i die unless you hand me a way to win on a silver platter".

spellcasters on the other hand, can do everything with their spells and feats no items. so they find a way to win the game without a dm hand holding them and giving them money and making a way for you to win.

so how can you enjoy a mundane class?

Lets take a "useless" 3rd level fighter.
If you restrict him to half his WBL on a single item, he can't have a magic sword yet.
So he's got a MW Greatsword (350gp), and is still wearing the Chain Shirt (100gp) he picked up at 1st level.
Plenty of cash left.

Spend a bit on not getting removed from encounters. Just because your character tanked Int doesn't mean you need to as well.

16gp. Cold Iron Morningstar (you should have this at first level, probably before you meet those giant rats in the tavern basement)
98gp. Alchemical Silver morningstar.
100gp. Composite Longbow. (at first level you should at least have a few javelins or daggers to throw)
3gp. 60 arrows
2gp. 20 cold iron arrows.
21gp. 20 silver arrows.
Free. Club. For Rust Monsters, slimes, and other things you don't want to hit with your good weapons.

50gp. Oil of Magic Weapon
100gp. Oil of Bless Weapon (probably some shenanigans exist to get it down to 50gp)

390gp of your 2700gp. Hardly a crippling cost burden. About half of that is consumables, so presumably the DM should compensate your use of them to bring you back up to WBL.
You've solved DR / Iron, Silver, Slash, Crush, Pierce, and Good, in any combination.

Fear. Stop tanking Wisdom so you can make your save. Buy a Remove Fear potion (50gp again). And even if you fail the save, it's either a minor debuff (-2 to hit), or you run away and reset the fight. Only if you are both Panicked and have no escape route is it a save-or-die.

Teleport. Doesn't win a fight generally. It may keep you from losing one, but that isn't the same thing. There are a lot of levels to go before that becomes a real concern. Of course once again, it's solvable with an Oil. Find a Cleric with the Portal domain and Brew Potion. At 750gp it's not cheap, but again, WBL should replace it when you use it. Eventually you upgrade to a +1 Binding Backup Weapon (8300 and change), which goes in your golf bag with everything else.

Grapple. You are a fighter. Win the grapple at low levels. Drink 50gp potions of Enlarge Person at medium-low levels. At high levels an anklet of translocation (1400gp) is a minor cost.

Are you Tier1? Oh hell no. Not even close. But combat stuff is all solvable. And that's without the other 2d4 party members who should theoretically be helping you.
You don't need a gate to Diagon Alley in the City of Brass, you just need a village blacksmith and a village adept. (actually, a Hamlet for most of it, not even a village)

[el minster]

You didn't though. By your own admittance, the rogue was healed to full, and the only thing that was used was one of the cleric's turn undead attempts. Unless we're not being given the full story? If you're saying you would have used a quarter of your resources if the cleric hadn't done that, it's still not a balanced fight.

Are you saying that one of the cleric's turn undead attempts is a quarter of the parties resources? Because I can't see how that could possibly be the case, unless something very odd was happening.

the warmage did cast some spells but the cleric did enough damage to take a skeleton from full hit pionts to dead.

[newguydude1]

Lets take a "useless" 3rd level fighter.
If you restrict him to half his WBL on a single item, he can't have a magic sword yet.
So he's got a MW Greatsword (350gp), and is still wearing the Chain Shirt (100gp) he picked up at 1st level.
Plenty of cash left.

Spend a bit on not getting removed from encounters. Just because your character tanked Int doesn't mean you need to as well.

16gp. Cold Iron Morningstar (you should have this at first level, probably before you meet those giant rats in the tavern basement)
98gp. Alchemical Silver morningstar.
100gp. Composite Longbow. (at first level you should at least have a few javelins or daggers to throw)
3gp. 60 arrows
2gp. 20 cold iron arrows.
21gp. 20 silver arrows.
Free. Club. For Rust Monsters, slimes, and other things you don't want to hit with your good weapons.

50gp. Oil of Magic Weapon
100gp. Oil of Bless Weapon (probably some shenanigans exist to get it down to 50gp)

390gp of your 2700gp. Hardly a crippling cost burden. About half of that is consumables, so presumably the DM should compensate your use of them to bring you back up to WBL.
You've solved DR / Iron, Silver, Slash, Crush, Pierce, and Good, in any combination.

Fear. Stop tanking Wisdom so you can make your save. Buy a Remove Fear potion (50gp again). And even if you fail the save, it's either a minor debuff (-2 to hit), or you run away and reset the fight. Only if you are both Panicked and have no escape route is it a save-or-die.

Teleport. Doesn't win a fight generally. It may keep you from losing one, but that isn't the same thing. There are a lot of levels to go before that becomes a real concern. Of course once again, it's solvable with an Oil. Find a Cleric with the Portal domain and Brew Potion. At 750gp it's not cheap, but again, WBL should replace it when you use it. Eventually you upgrade to a +1 Binding Backup Weapon (8300 and change), which goes in your golf bag with everything else.

Grapple. You are a fighter. Win the grapple at low levels. Drink 50gp potions of Enlarge Person at medium-low levels. At high levels an anklet of translocation (1400gp) is a minor cost.

Are you Tier1? Oh hell no. Not even close. But combat stuff is all solvable. And that's without the other 2d4 party members who should theoretically be helping you.
You don't need a gate to Diagon Alley in the City of Brass, you just need a village blacksmith and a village adept. (actually, a Hamlet for most of it, not even a village)

arrows only work if your character has high dex. have you seen the ac of flying creatures? some physical brute picking up a bow wont do anything. you need potions of fly.

fear doesnt reset the fight. 1 on 1 you die to the guy greater teleporting next to you and taking pot shots with his attack of opportunity until you dead. party fight your out for the whole fight which isnt as bad as being dead but you cry about how op this is.

i was talking about 7-9 level and when the adventure module you play in only give you villages or small town for shop loot. so the most expensive thing you can buy isnt half your wbl its whatever the most expensive thing your small town has.

in addition you dont always have access to a shop because of reasons. maybe your on the run. maybe you have a time limit on the campaign. i couldnt do what i wanted as artificer cause shop access and lack of downtime so what chance do mundanes have. well at least before i picked up a few more artificer tricks that made them unbeholden to wealth.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items
tally all the cheapest options on there. thats how much money minimum you need to play a mundane. and only if your dm gives you a shop.

[Evoker]

the warmage did cast some spells but the cleric did enough damage to take a skeleton from full hit pionts to dead.

So based on the fact that the warmage's spells formed a quarter of the parties resources, I guess it's a good thing that the cleric ended the fight there before the skeletons got out of hand and burned through way too much of the parties resources. What would have happened if the cleric hadn't had that feat? Seems like the party might have lost?

[Elkad]

arrows only work if your character has high dex. have you seen the ac of flying creatures? some physical brute picking up a bow wont do anything. you need potions of fly.

fear doesnt reset the fight. 1 on 1 you die to the guy greater teleporting next to you and taking pot shots with his attack of opportunity until you dead. party fight your out for the whole fight which isnt as bad as being dead but you cry about how op this is.

i was talking about 7-9 level and when the adventure module you play in only give you villages or small town for shop loot. so the most expensive thing you can buy isnt half your wbl its whatever the most expensive thing your small town has.

in addition you dont always have access to a shop because of reasons. maybe your on the run. maybe you have a time limit on the campaign. i couldnt do what i wanted as artificer cause shop access and lack of downtime so what chance do mundanes have. well at least before i picked up a few more artificer tricks that made them unbeholden to wealth.

did you ever play with a mundane that did all this necessary shopping? they all go i swing a sword and then when a werewolf appears he goes game is boring or this is bs or tier 1 is op because the tier 1 killed the werewolf not his ranger who couldnt beat the dr and didnt buy silver arrows. this post feels like that sort of even though the op is the cleric.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items
tally all the cheapest options on there. thats how much money minimum you need to play a mundane. and only if your dm gives you a shop.

Bows work fine. Oh sure, you hit a little less often. So you aren't quite as optimal. But you aren't useless either.
Wind Wall? Use a sling instead.
The very first item on that list of items gives you a fly potion once a day forever, for the price of a single fly potion.
Or get a normal flying mount. They are all faster than fly potions, so are more useful against things a fly potion can't keep up with.

Fear and Greater Teleport both. You've raised the ante a bit. Still, Mr Teleport gets a single AoO every round. While you wait for your fear to expire. You might not even die before it does.
Meanwhile, the rest of the party is doing what? Ideally, the wizard is running after you. That's all he has to do to make you 100% safe from melee attacks. (well, and cast one 24 hour spell at breakfast that he should probably be casting anyway). The rest of the party is surrounding the teleport square and taking a readied attack every time Mr Teleport appears.

Prepublished Modules typically give you the loot tools you need to beat every encounter. Homebrew stuff should be the same. If I'm putting a werewolf in, I'll leave a silver-studded club in the prior room. But again, that's a very cheap item. Should be able to find one in nearly any town, if the GM lets you shop at all. Or you can just pound your way through the DR. Give up some accuracy for more power attack if you need to.

Mundanes shopping. Of course they buy all those things. Well, the ones that expect to live past 2nd level do. Plus forty-leven other things. See https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-%28Equipment-Handbook%29 for ideas. The T1s should be buying most of them as well. Of course many of those things can be coordinated in the party. You don't all need 10 iron spikes, you need 2 each. Or one guy with 10 and five guys with none.

You don't "need" everything on the essential item list either. Many can be duplicated by class abilities in your party. Or just by smart play.

[Asmotherion]

Well, it's simple enough really:

A) If everyone knows how to optimise or at least ask someone to do so for them tiers don't really matter. At least except for tier 4-5 where there will still be some gap, but why would you purposfully go choose a tier 4 or 5 class in such a game?

B) With the premise the whole party is at a similar level of optimisation, the dm doesn't have to pull any punshes, and can actually make more interesting and complex encounters.

[False God]

Don't play a character capable of that? Since it all comes down to spell/feat selection, just don't take those spells and feats. Yeah you'll still probably be ahead of the curve particularly in later games, but you can un-optimize a caster pretty easily by just choosing sub-par spells.

Or...don't worry about it.

[el minster]

Don't play a character capable of that? Since it all comes down to spell/feat selection, just don't take those spells and feats. Yeah you'll still probably be ahead of the curve particularly in later games, but you can un-optimize a caster pretty easily by just choosing sub-par spells.

Or...don't worry about it.

Choosing sub-par spells is painful.

[Buufreak]

Choosing sub-par spells is painful.

Then what are you actually taking issue with? You aren't capable of finding fun with playing a powerful character, but making less than powerful option choices is painful. There's a bit of a double negative going on there, and I'm not entirely sure that anyone here is going to be able to steer you out of it. What are you attempting to accomplish with this thread? Are you seeking character build advice? Philosophical advice? Just looking to complain?

[el minster]

See, I feel a need to optimize characters but I dont want to leave other characters behind, therefore I play lower tier characters.

[newguydude1]

See, I feel a need to optimize characters but I dont want to leave other characters behind, therefore I play lower tier characters.

play truenamer and be happy. optimize til your head explodes.

[el minster]

That's a bit extreme, but yeah thats the general idea.

[newguydude1]

That's a bit extreme, but yeah thats the general idea.

id play truenamer. he maybe craptastic but late in the game he gets some awesome awesome stuff.

[Quertus]

The initial premise of the thread is faulty, in that "Tier 1" is irrelevant to the particular victory condition given.

The question, "how can one enjoy playing a Tier 1 character" is trivially answered (and has been), but is not the crux of the issue.

The question, "how can one play a Tier 1 character to not overshadow the party" is valid, and I'd wax poetical about Quertus my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, except that's not the OP's issue. If, while not being their issue, is of interest to them, I'll expound on several answers.

The question, "how can one *optimize* a Tier 1 without overshadowing the rest of the party" is a bit trickier. There are many answers; perhaps my favorite is, "the rest of the party optimizes *harder*” and "how much more dead than 'the Fighter 1-shotted it' does the monster need to be?".

The OP's answer of "optimize a worse chassis" is the best overall answer to juggling party balance and the itch to optimize, and adheres to my adage of "balance to the table". Kudos!

[el minster]

you know I'm going to change the thread to "how can one play a tier one not to overshadow party members"

[TalonOfAnathrax]

you know I'm going to change the thread to "how can one play a tier one not to overshadow party members"
The answer to that is already well-known: be the utility caster, and in combat use the mechanically optimal support spells.
So debuff enemies and buff allies instead of using blasting/self-buff/save-or-die spells all the time. Buffing allies is the best option to avoid overshadowing everyone all the time.
For example: a Wizard/War Weaver/Spellguard of Silverymoon build which focuses on buffs and God wizard area control (solid fog, etc) can and will fit into a Tier 3 or 4 party extremely well. And yet it's one of the most powerful builds in the game that you'll ever be likely to see at a table.

[el minster]

The answer to that is already well-known: be the utility caster, and in combat use the mechanically optimal support spells.
So debuff enemies and buff allies instead of using blasting/self-buff/save-or-die spells all the time. Buffing allies is the best option to avoid overshadowing everyone all the time.
For example: a Wizard/War Weaver/Spellguard of Silverymoon build which focuses on buffs and God wizard area control (solid fog, etc) can and will fit into a Tier 3 or 4 party extremely well. And yet it's one of the most powerful builds in the game that you'll ever be likely to see at a table.

Does buffing really work, it seems like they all know that they're only winning becuase of you?

[AvatarVecna]

Does buffing really work, it seems like they all know that they're only winning becuase of you?

Anybody who would notice that a caster is carrying their martial through all the combats is somebody who understands the game well enough to have not played a noncaster in the first place.

Okay that's maybe going a bit far, but the core of my point is in there: people who play noncasters are either unaware of the power/versatility issue, or are aware and chose to play a noncaster anyway. At that point, when you come to an encounter that requires your assistance to deal with for whatever reason, you've got a couple choices. You can use any of a high number of strategies to just take over the combat - mass summoning so that you get more actions than everyone else combined, polymorph into a cyrohydra and wreck face, fireball everything into oblivion...there's tons of strategies for soloing the encounter, but that doesn't help you too much because you're at a table with people you (presumably) care about the feelings of.

Buffing doesn't make it so you're not carrying. Buffing makes it so that you carrying doesn't ruin the game for everybody else at the table. It's taking your phenomenal cosmic power and stapling a portion of it to this glorified pickpocket, or that Conan wannabe, then sitting back and letting them do all the sweaty fighting for you. War Weaver Wizard can be amazing at this. Bard can be amazing at this. Even a healing-focused cleric build can be super-support, pumping out hundreds of points of healing even at mid-low levels. People will even call you weak!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does buffing really work, it seems like they all know that they're only winning becuase of you?

You'd be surprised at how slowly some cotton onto that idea.

And even if they do, they're not likely to mind since they're, ya know, winning.

You can always stick to debuffing and warping the battlefield if it really bothers them that much.



I've got a bit to say on the overall subject but I'm on mobile and that's a -lot- of thumb typing.

[King of Nowhere]

You're jumping to conclusions. I will explain the situation. So when the fight starts the skeletons go first. They start by they attacking the rogue and getting into a scuffle with the fighter on the cleric's turn he uses Sacred Purification as a swift action to heal the rogue and vaporize the skeletons. They all die.
this looks not like a tier problem but more of a specific situation and ability problem. the cleric is especially capable against multiple low level undead foes. it's just a case of a specific encounter catering specifically to the strenght of a specific character.
the same situation could have happened if the fighter had been surrounded by those six skeletons and had finished them all in one round with great cleave. or if the monk had fallen into 6 consecutive 6 meters pit traps and survived them all unschated because of slow fall. without even expending limited use resources.



Does buffing really work, it seems like they all know that they're only winning becuase of you?

so what? it's a team game. of course without you they would lose.
without them, you'd have nobody to buff and you'd also be screwed. best case scenario, you'd need to spend more spells to do the same job, and could not do other stuff. unless you are playing TO and can solo anything.

[Thunder999]

The fact is most people either don't notice or don't mind that your buffs and BFC are carrying the fight as long as they get to swing their swords for nice big damage numbers.
Even something as simple as targeting the fighter with polymorph rather than yourself is often enough to be the difference between "The wizard is making the rest of us feel useless, he even decided to handle the melee fighting himself" and "last session was awesome, the wizard turned me into a giant and I did loads of damage, I'm so powerful" (exaggerated a bit of course, but you get the idea)

[newguydude1]

Does buffing really work, it seems like they all know that they're only winning becuase of you?

mundanes only care that they get to kill things. they want you to use spells that make them stronger so that they can kill things. they only whine when you kill the things instead of them.

[AvatarVecna]

Building a bit more on this, even from people who understand the game and support noncasters a great deal despite that, there's still disagreement that it's a bad thing. You'll occasionally see threads here ITP from such people stating their opinion that the game is built around the assumption that casters will buff noncasters into viability, and that doing otherwise is fundamentally playing the game in a way the designers didn't intend it to be played, and destabilizes encounter design.

[Zanos]

so what? it's a team game. of course without you they would lose.
without them, you'd have nobody to buff and you'd also be screwed. best case scenario, you'd need to spend more spells to do the same job, and could not do other stuff. unless you are playing TO and can solo anything.
Eh, not really? A wizard can pretty easily get their hands on some meat to soak up the frontlines for minimal investment. Animate dead lasts forever and make some really nasty stuff that will always listen to your orders. Planar binding is less reliable but similar. And creatures from either spell will often outshine martials just by virtue of their massive physical ability scores and racial powers.

That said, if you're explicitly going out of you way to bring along a frontline that obsoletes actual people playing characters in the game, you're at least a bit of a jerk. But I've always maintained that D&D only ever functions as a game when there's a gentlemens agreement.

[Quertus]

The question, "how can one play a Tier 1 character to not overshadow the party" is valid, and I'd wax poetical about Quertus my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, except that's not the OP's issue. If, while not being their issue, is of interest to them, I'll expound on several answers.


you know I'm going to change the thread to "how can one play a tier one not to overshadow party members"

That sounds like an invitation to me!

So, first, let's break this question down even further: "How can one play a tier one not to overshadow party members" breaks down into, "How can one play a more powerful character, and not to overshadow party members", "How can one play a(n optimized) Tier character and not be more powerful than suboptimal builds with bad chassis", and "How can one play a(n optimized), powerful Tier 1 character, and the other players not mind/notice".

"How can one play a more powerful character, and not to overshadow party members?"

The known adage is, "player > build > class". Thus, the really simple answer is, make bad choices. Play the totally OP bumbling idiot. Memorize all the wrong spells; waste your only AoE on a single target; Knock a door without checking to see if it is locked. Develop as many valid but *highly niche* tactics as you have resources for, and choose between them at random - bonus points if you start in on a tactic for the Xth time, only to "suddenly realize" that you only had (X-1) of the final component.

Take all the worst horror stories of the worst players you've seen or read about (EDIT - I mean in terms of skill), and roleplay that.

"How can one play a(n optimized) Tier character and not be more powerful than suboptimal builds with bad chassis?"

This one is… really difficult. The standard answer is "GM pity artifacts". I suppose I'll add "change the focus", aka "Smallville". Yes, we all know that Superman is more powerful than his mortal squeeze, but, if that's not the focus of the gameplay, it's not an issue.

"How can one play a(n optimized), powerful Tier 1 character, and the other players not mind/notice?"

Others have largely covered this: at most tables, one can successfully play a totally OP buffer, BFC, and/or heal-bot, and nobody will burn you at the stake for actually knowing how to play the game.

-----

Once upon a time, an Important NPC™ invited the party to dinner. When we entered the room, we found the NPC seated at the end of a long table. As the other PCs rushed to get the closest seats to the NPC, Armus (im)patiently waited. Once everyone else was finally seated, Armus declared, "I'm glad everyone knows their place", and strode to the other end of the table. He proceeded to initiate discussions with the Important NPC™ in a "quiet, the grown-ups are talking" tone. Once he had concluded his part, Armus then specifically brought up any "I believe <PC X> wants to discuss Y" he could remember, handing the floor over to the others.

It is possible to claim the superior position while enabling others rather than invalidating them.

[el minster]

But I don't want to be superior.

[Aotrs Commander]

I mean, at my table, everyone would just have had a jolly old laugh at the cleric one-shotting the skeletons and then high-fived the cleric, saying "nice one, dude."

[Evoker]

But I don't want to be superior.

So you want to play a Tier 1 class, optimize it, and not be superior to the other players?

In that case, either take the suggestion of playing the character without skill, or get all the other players to play optimized tier ones. There's not really any way around the fact that a perfectly played, optimized, high-tier character is going to be more effective, in an overall sense, than any character that's not a perfectly played, optimized, high-tier character.

But it doesn't seem like you really do want to optimize your character in the overall sense. As many people (including myself) have noted, the feat you chose that sparked this question is very far from optimal.

[ChaosStar]

medium skeletons have six hp

No, they have 1d12 HP. 6 is the Average. All monsters have rollable Hit Dice, and the stat block tells you that along with what the average of that is.

[Quertus]

See, I feel a need to optimize characters but I dont want to leave other characters behind,


But I don't want to be superior.

It's simple math. If you want to add a larger number, and don't want to end with a larger sum, you have to start with a smaller number to begin with. As was already said:



therefore I play lower tier characters.

I think you're already familiar with that poster, so I'll let y'all hash it out. :smallwink:

As to how *other people* can enjoy playing a Tier 1 character? Clearly, they have changed some portion of the equation: they aren't starting with a higher base (other players are also playing Tier 1 characters) they aren't adding more (they don't feel compelled to optimize as much as you do, and/or other players highly optimize their PCs) there are additional balancing factors (Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, is tactically inept; "GM pity artifacts", etc) they don't care about being superior(and, hopefully, their table doesn't care, either)

[el minster]

No, they have 1d12 HP. 6 is the Average. All monsters have rollable Hit Dice, and the stat block tells you that along with what the average of that is.

My group doesn't roll hit dice we just take the average rounded down.

[Batcathat]

mundanes only care that they get to kill things. they want you to use spells that make them stronger so that they can kill things. they only whine when you kill the things instead of them.

Yeah, that doesn't seem patronizing at all. :smallconfused:

[Zanos]

No, they have 1d12 HP. 6 is the Average. All monsters have rollable Hit Dice, and the stat block tells you that along with what the average of that is.
Anecdotal, but I've never played with a DM that used rolled HP for NPCs, and few that even had players roll HD.

[ChaosStar]

Anecdotal, but I've never played with a DM that used rolled HP for NPCs, and few that even had players roll HD.

That seems weird, cause if you don't roll for HP why even have Hit Dice in the first place.

[Rhyltran]

That seems weird, cause if you don't roll for HP why even have Hit Dice in the first place.

I understand what Zanos is saying. From my experience many players don't use HD anymore. Many are moving away from random attributes/random hit points. Point buy and max "Hit Dice" or "Middle HD" are becoming the norm. Average monster HD is also the health pool of the monster. This means 3 balor will all have about 290 hit points.

[el minster]

That seems weird, cause if you don't roll for HP why even have Hit Dice in the first place.

It matters for certain spells, size, Savage Species progressions and other stuff.

[False God]

I understand what Zanos is saying. From my experience many players don't use HD anymore. Many are moving away from random attributes/random hit points. Point buy and max "Hit Dice" or "Middle HD" are becoming the norm. Average monster HD is also the health pool of the monster. This means 3 balor will all have about 290 hit points.

When you compare D&D to other games, you start to question the purpose of "random". Does generating ability scores randomly add more fun? Does leveling up only to gain 1HP(out of any given number) add more fun? How does the "random" translate into what's happening in the game? Does a low HD roll somehow represent me training poorly this level? How much accounting does "random" add that benefits the game?

Interesting in-system note: why aren't skill points random? 1dX+int just like 1dX+con for HP seems to make perfect sense to me. If one level you can only get a little tough and another you can get a lot tougher, then surely one level you can get a little more skilled and another a lot.

[Rhyltran]

When you compare D&D to other games, you start to question the purpose of "random". Does generating ability scores randomly add more fun? Does leveling up only to gain 1HP(out of any given number) add more fun? How does the "random" translate into what's happening in the game? Does a low HD roll somehow represent me training poorly this level? How much accounting does "random" add that benefits the game?

Interesting in-system note: why aren't skill points random? 1dX+int just like 1dX+con for HP seems to make perfect sense to me. If one level you can only get a little tough and another you can get a lot tougher, then surely one level you can get a little more skilled and another a lot.

Oh I agree I am not criticizing was just giving an example. The only random with my current group is rolling for hitpoints but they are hanging onto that. They rejected point buy even when pathfinder came out and recently adopted it years later. Even as traditionalist as they are they are still moving away from random rolls. Nothing wrong with that either.

[Thunder999]

That seems weird, cause if you don't roll for HP why even have Hit Dice in the first place.

HD still matter, different classes still get different amounts of HP at level up, there's just not nonsense where the wizard can roll higher than the barbarian, and HD are still levels.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Finally back to a real keyboard. Let's get into it.

So there's the first question: how do you enjoy playing an optimized T1?

This question largely depends on your GM. Your average, mid-op GM; you have two options: either you suck it up and acknowledge that one of "T1" or "highly optimized" is gonna have to give or, if he and the rest of the party are okay with it, you get to play your "I am as a god unto men" power fantasy. In the latter case, it's wise to play the buffer, debuffer, and battlefield control routes. More on that in a sec.

On the other hand, if you have one of those rare GMs that has the requisite knowledge and skill, it's perfectly within the realm of possibility to actually challenge a T1 caster even without resorting exclusively to T1 BBEGs. There are relatively few people that know how to bring the full power of a T1 class to bear (and a lot more that are dunning-krueger victims that only think they do) and there are fewer still that know both that -and- know the limits of that power well enough to exploit them from the GM's side of the screen. Yet fewer than that who have that full set of knowledge and the judgement to use it just often enough to make the game challenging without being frustrating. If you can find such a GM, stay on your best behavior and don't spook the unicorn.

Seriously, the idea that T1s played to their fullest are completely unassailable power houses is nonsense. It's beyond a lot, if not most, GMs but it's not accurate to say that it's a part of the system at all.


The second question: how do you play an optimized T1 without overshadowing less optimized and/or lower tier characters?

As I said above and in chorus with posts prior, the simplest way to do this is by focusing on the things the other characters can't do; spells that enhance your allies, spells that reduce your foes, and spells that shape the battlefield to the party's advantage. Avoid use of effects that simply kill or otherwise void foes and obstacles entirely and using self-buffing to attempt to usurp the roles of other PCs in your party.

The OP expressed concern that the previous is "obviously carrying the team" in such a way that it would make the other players dissatisfied. The thing is, a -lot- of players are surprisingly slow to even notice that this is the case. Many of those who do still won't mind because even if you are "carrying the team," the team's still winning, the plot is still progressing, and they still get to do their thing effectively. The GM certainly won't mind since the effectiveness of the whole team is rising and he gets to avoid the headache of dealing with encounter design for PCs of greatly varying ability. Your're a rising tide raising all the ships instead of a tidal wave crushing them on the way to where you're going. That's not a bad thing.


__________________________________________________ __

Getting into the esoterica from here. If you were here for the old thread title subject or the current one, they've been addressed above. You can move on to the next post.

__________________________________________________ __

On the efficacy of mid and low tier classes as compared to higher tier classes


The difference in gear dependence, like a lot of the difference between high and low tier classes, is grossly exaggerated. Yes, a fighter or a barbarian -needs- magical weapons and armor in a very obvious, undeniable way. There's no arguing that point.

The idea that T1s and T2s don't need any gear, however, is nonsensical. For that to be true, you must -always- dictate the terms of the encounter. To be caught off-guard even once is near certain death.

The persistomancy case is grossly overstated. DMM; you get -one- spell unless you get some night sticks (7500 each), a reliquary holy symbol (another 1000), and/or at least a cloak of charisma (4k - 36k). Incantatrix' metamagic effect: 3+int times per day (maximum 10 attempts at level 16 without gear, barring LA) and you have to make a pretty steep skill check (minimum dc 36 for persisting a cantrip, up to 63 for L9 spells); how many slots do you want to spend boosting that check for the effect you actually want vs how many attempts do you want to risk failure on vs do you just buy a +X competence skill booster? Spelldancer has an easier check DC but being limited in the amount of dancing you can do by con mod means you have to boost that just as hard as your casting stat to even get -two- persistent spells in a day.

In all of those cases, you're simply -not- covering all of your defensive bases from your casting alone, not in a way that you can cover unexpected assaults with.

Then, of course, there's magical offense. T1 classes have restrictions that the schrodinger's wizard discussions tend to simply dismiss and ignore.

Cleric; you pick -all- of your spells at once. If you picked wrong, good luck.
Wizard and archivist; you get to pick on the fly if you've got 15 minutes and left slots open but any slots you've left opened are slots that do nothing in an unanticipated situation. Uncanny forethought? Int times per day, capped at 7 come level 16 unless you're gonna spend -hard- on int; 10 for the headband at 36k and anything past that requires wish equivalents, again barring LA, and wizard only.
Druid, as cleric but at least situations that are solved by more meat, maneuvered very simply are a non-issue.
Erudite has the UPD limit that, unless you take an obvious copy-pasta error as gospel, means they get as few options in any given day as a wilder. There are bypasses but you've got to survive that long for the ones that don't cost a -lot- of GP.
Artificer... artificer's actually a pretty tough nut to crack. Spell storing item is -magnificent- for power-gaming. The big drawback is the XP cost. It can't be taken from the craft reserve. While xp is a river, there's only so much flow. Beyond that, it has much the same problem as the wizard's casting; the less you know of what's coming, the harder it is to use well. The armor enhancement and weapon augmentation infusions are also pretty solid but they like spell storing item, require action points to use on the fly and, unlike spell storing item, are otherwise short-term.

Now, of course, there are a handful of spells that are -immensely- versatile.

The various summon X 1-9 spells all provide decent bang for your buck but rarely the perfect tool for the situation. They have a devastating weakness though; they can't be cast anywhere that planar travel is barred and there are several large area effects that hedge them out entirely or dismiss them even even after summoning. It's not quite as bad as enchantment but (summoning) subschool spells get shut down hard by a surprising number of things that don't even require a caster to be present.

There are various calling effects but they're all -much- more heavily subject to GM interpretation than most other elements of the game. You'll be told on 3e forums that they're basically a free army of minions if you use them right and your GM might even roll with that. If he doesn't though, you're casting "conjure plot-hook" rather than "make minion," else you're paying out the nose.

Finally, there is polymorph et al. They're potent enough buffs but the fact they're limited by the target's HD goes a long way toward keeping them from being much else. It's not until you hit shapechange at level 17 that things go completely haywire. The most cited form for destructive potential is the hyrdra but that relies pretty heavily on a certain interpretation of the hydra's note on combat reflexes. Without that, damage output is solid but to-hit is crap and you're now a big, slow target with wizard HP unless you're layering it over other buffs or targeting an ally who's a lot better at fighting than you. Polymorph's psionic cousin, metamorphosis, is much more potent but also much more restricted in access.

None of the above does -anything- for a social encounter.



I'm not trying to deny that a well played T1/T2 is immensely potent or that it's at all common that they find themselves at a complete loss for options for what to do in a given situation. Just trying to temper some of the more outrageous overstatement of their ability. They -do- have their limits.



Now then. WBL for characters below T2;

One of the most common arguments touted is that the guidelines given aren't adequate for a non-caster to even do his own job properly. This is patently absurd.

First, note that the values on DMG table 5-1 are -not- the whole of the WBL guidelines. The treasure generated by both the DMG and MIC tables generate more wealth than is required to get from one row to the next on table 5-1 over the course of a level. That excess doesn't just disappear, it's -expected- to be used on consumables and other incidental costs. This is explicit in the "behind the curtain" sidebar on DMG 54. The value on table 5-1 is the expected, approximate value of the permanent and semi-permanent gear that directly and reliably contributes to a character's overall capability. When you then also incorporate MIC's item levels, it quickly becomes clear that being appropriately geared is well within those guidelines.

Prudent expenditures can often leave you reaching system numeric benchmarks with a fair chunk of change to spare on more qualitative equipment even at fairly early levels. By mid level it's virtually a given and by high levels you'll struggle to spend it all without grossly overspending on things like a +10 weapon (an epic item by the WBL guidelines) or tomes of +X inherent bonus to ability Y (just plain overpriced for what little they do).

You hardly need "DM granted pity artifacts" to get by. Less so than you need a DM that's tolerant of the 15 minute adventuring day for a lot of forum expectation to hold in play.

I'm sure I've missed something in this wall o' text but it's 2:30 in the morning so this will have to do.

[Cliff Sedge]

The easiest answer of course is stop being a powergamer, and if a DM, stop allowing powergamers.

All this talk of "tiers" and "optimal builds" is depressing to me. It's like the only thing people care about is damage-per-round and having the best magic items.

What happened to roleplaying and just working as a team to overcome various challenges, regardless of what "power level" you think everyone is at?

[Gauntlet]

There's absolutely no reason you can't build a powerful character and also play an interesting character. They're entirely separate areas of character creation and there's no reason to assume that just because someone is asking about mechanical power levels, that they aren't also role-playing.

If you are "working together to overcome challenges", as you said, it's probably worth it to be aware that some characters will be able to solo challenges other characters would struggle with, and dealing with that is an important part of being a player/GM and having an interesting game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The easiest answer of course is stop being a powergamer, and if a DM, stop allowing powergamers.

In that case, you may find other editions of the game to be more to your liking. The major draw of 3e at this point is precisely the kind of deep, complex options that allow "power gaming" to flourish.

You don't have to allow anything you don't like as a GM, of course, but you're going to be working against the system itself and a growing proportion of its players to try and keep things tight with this version of the game.


All this talk of "tiers" and "optimal builds" is depressing to me. It's like the only thing people care about is damage-per-round and having the best magic items.

This subforum will not make you happy then.

That aside, you play a fantasy roleplaying game to feel like a fantastic badass solving fantastic problems right? Knowing how best to do that within the system you're working with is pretty much your only option unless you want the GM to hold your hand. You can, and most do, select which of the game's subsystems to do that with but there are undeniably more and less effective ways of getting the job done, whatever that job happens to be.

Now, in the course of discussing -this- system for the last 20 years, the community has observed that when it comes to effectiveness at solving -all- of the problems that can be presented without heavy use of houserules, classes fall into about 6 categories or tiers of capability.

The classes that have the ability to interact with everything and the ability to switch out which subset they can interact with quickly and easily sit at the top.

While the classes that can only really interact with their chosen field of expertise with no ability to change that area and difficultly in excelling without greater than average system knowledge land at the bottom.

It is an unfortunate tendency of the community to grossly exaggerate just how far apart the top and bottom of that overall ladder actually are but that it does exist is nigh-impossible to rationally dispute.


What happened to roleplaying and just working as a team to overcome various challenges, regardless of what "power level" you think everyone is at?

Nothing. They're still major elements of the system in play. All this other meta-analysis is just an element of the system that -also- exists and impacts those parts.

You can ignore it if you want and you may even play for a long time without noticing the meta. When it eventually does rear up and cause issues, though, you'll only have your own knowledge and judgment available to fix the problem. Frankly, that's like driving a car when you know nothing about automotive mechanics and then trying to fix it when it breaks down with whatever tools you happen to have to hand and whatever general mechanical principles you can remember from high-school.

[MeimuHakurei]

There's a ton of room for playing Tier 1s that I feel doesn't quite fit into the Tierlist, which makes it washy to determine the actual power levels of them. I'd like to propose three different optimization levels that correspond to the reaches I've seen (anecdotally) where Tier 1s were played:

Gamma-level: Probably the one you've seen the most and likely what you play with Tier 4/5 characters. Only simple battlefield control, buff and debuff strategies are employed. Occasionally, you see dedicated blasters fireballing groups. Many Divination and Teleportation effects aren't employed to skip past content. Basic optimization tricks like persistomancy may be used but aren't heavily leveraged.

Beta-level: The level where you break many low-tier campaigns. Scry-fry-die is a staple tactic to clear a location. Clones, Simulacra, Astral Projection and the like are used as lifelines for casters. Planar Binding is leveraged for high quality minionmancy. Wishes are still limited in usage but they may still be a factor. Casters still have finite stats and must be concious about their spell slot expenditure.

Alpha-level: Approaching Tippyverse optimization. Casting Wish at will with no XP cost is entry level for this. Many builds incorporate Illithid Savant to steal powerful monster abilities and class features. Casters can usually become immune to hit point damage. Infinite loops are permitted to an extent as the speed of execution becomes a factor - as well as the fact that many powerful entities can end you and/or your infinite setup in a swift action if you're ever vulnerable.

Keep in mind that this isn't about individual class power anymore (Alpha-level in particular requires specific system exploits not inherent to full casting alone), but rather how hard you lean into optimizing your characters - with the ability to flex monster and class abilities, even lower tier classes may provide something impactful.

Optimizing for the Gamma level is what you do if you don't want to overshadow anyone, but you could easily work into leaning into a particular theme/skillset you want to excel at and still be a team player - summoners, blasters, diviners and gishes can do this just as well as the typical god wizards.

[Esprit15]

My preferred way to play a powerful character that doesn't overshadow everyone else is to find ways to have said powerful character bring out the best in the other party members - a DMM cleric who persists party buffs rather than Divine Power, a battlefield control wizard who locks down enemies with save or suck/lose effects that still allow the more mundane folks to use their cool abilities. Cast Fly on the VoP monk, prepare spells like Mass Snake's Swiftness. Prepare a spell or two that can shut things down if the battle gets hairy or people start going unconscious, but make your loadout about helping your team make the best use they can of their abilities.

[mindstalk]

In our game, a complete newbie player who struggled with system competence, never mind mastery, still found that her druid's companion gave her two combat actions a round. Wasn't trying to be OP or overshadow, just be effective.

I was the first one to define a character and went for psion in Eberron, kind of figured not my fault if others then pick barbarian. I found later that they're good at direct damage and self-buffs, psions are Tier 2 but not as good in support. I tried to hold back but was still kind of MVP. I found some nice synergies in building her but I was just using (psionic) core, nothing obscure.

Tiers matter when just making reasonable choices for your class leads to wildly different effectiveness. "Just roleplay"? Playing your character will include your character's knowledge of her capabilities.

[Psyren]

Sounds like your DM isn't providing a proper challenge. It's not a class problem, it's a class-versus-encounter problem.

That.


You're jumping to conclusions. I will explain the situation. So when the fight starts the skeletons go first. They start by they attacking the rogue and getting into a scuffle with the fighter on the cleric's turn he uses Sacred Purification as a swift action to heal the rogue and vaporize the skeletons. They all die.

OP, you're playing a build that is particularly strong against undead, and then acting surprised that you did well against undead. This isn't a tier problem and your general question in the headline is tantamount to clickbait.


The easiest answer of course is stop being a powergamer, and if a DM, stop allowing powergamers.

All this talk of "tiers" and "optimal builds" is depressing to me. It's like the only thing people care about is damage-per-round and having the best magic items.

What happened to roleplaying and just working as a team to overcome various challenges, regardless of what "power level" you think everyone is at?

Gotta say, I haven't seen someone go straight to Stormwind in a while.

[Tvtyrant]

The easiest answer of course is stop being a powergamer, and if a DM, stop allowing powergamers.

All this talk of "tiers" and "optimal builds" is depressing to me. It's like the only thing people care about is damage-per-round and having the best magic items.

What happened to roleplaying and just working as a team to overcome various challenges, regardless of what "power level" you think everyone is at?

Pretty obvious you haven't read the tier threads. The whole purpose was in being able to figure out how to balance the game, because so many parties have accidental power disparities which make players feel bad. A Druid's animal companion being better then the Monk at being a Monk for instance.

[Hecuba]

Choosing sub-par spells is painful.

I find it far more palatable to focus on thematic constraints that allow you to match the appropriate power level. In practice that is what the tier 3 full casters do, and it's equally effective to simply self-impose the constraints on the tier 1 classes.

For example: what deity or concept are you a cleric of? The rules allow you to prepare any spell on the cleric list, but that and power don't have to be your primary motives in spell preparation. In the past, I've restrained myself on a cleric by reversing the thematic domain spell / normal spell ratio: I made a requirement for myself that all but 1 of my spells at a given level come from my domain list or a list of thematically related spells I prepared ahead of time. (Once you get to the realm of 5+1 spells at a level, it's probably worth making this 2, but the idea holds).

Wizards are likewise rather straightforward: choose a theme. Use focus specialist or domain wizard and draw your spells know and prepared overwhelmingly from the a thematically limited list - rather than using that list for just bonus spells.

[Asmotherion]

Well, since the thread now has a new premise, here is my new reply:

1) Be a buffer/Controller. By buffing party members, you both feel you contributed to the kill. No need to summon-> buff unless you're filling a role that is vacant. Control also allows party members to feel like they contribute to the fight.

2) Just because you can out-Ac or out-Damage the fighter doesn't mean you should. Save your special trick for when the fighter is down to fill his party role. Or any other party role for that matter.

3) Keep a couple default tricks as your "gimmick", and use variation only when it is dramatically correct. We get it, by level 7 you can do virtually everything on various levels of complexity and magnitude. Keep a theme to your Spellcasting, a kind of default strategy if you will when dealing with small fry, and let others their chance to shine.

[Gnaeus]

Take item creation feats. At least one, more of you need to slow down your progression.

Use those item feats to craft optimized items for the weakest members of the party. Use your own WBL if you have to, until they are functional.

Bonus points for explaining that it is dangerous to go alone.

[Quertus]

Take item creation feats. At least one, more of you need to slow down your progression.

Use those item feats to craft optimized items for the weakest members of the party. Use your own WBL if you have to, until they are functional.

Bonus points for explaining that it is dangerous to go alone.

+1 this.

If you have the system mastery, and the GM/module give you the time + towns, you can drag the BDF up to minimal competence.

[Nifft]

I just don't understand. In a recent low-level game my cleric killed all the enemies in one encounter while simultaneously healing all allies with a swift action. Seriously CoDs and at later levels wizards are pretty much an "I win button".
I agree with the posts above, [Item Creation] is a great answer.

The most popular answer is to simply play badly. This is overwhelmingly more common than any other solution, for very obvious reasons. It's so common that many people who are new to the forum don't even see T1 as a thing which needs solving.


The thing you described -- winning one encounter with an ability tailor-made for that type of encounter -- doesn't really strike me as a problem.

You're at level 1, and fights are very swingy. Enemies die very easily at level 1. This encounter could have also been solved by T3 classes like a Dragonfire Adept with Entangling Exhalation; at level 1, that class is hella overpowered, but generally it's just a nice T3 because that ability doesn't remain overwhelming as encounters get tougher.

(In fact, a Dragonfire Adept with that feat could solve a majority of encounters at level 1, without needing any specific opponent type. This isn't because DFA is too strong, it's because level 1 enemies lack options.)

[ithildur]

Pretty obvious summary: OP does not yet have as good a grasp of system mastery as they thought they did, certainly not to the point that they need to lose sleep over playing a T1 class and overshadowing others (unless of course the others are really struggling or new players etc.).

Problem solved, for now.

[Odin's Eyepatch]

I love optimising. I'm also playing a wizard. I'm also in a party with many tier 3 builds and varying levels of system mastery.

So what I've done is I've intentionally gimped my build in certain ways. I've taken prestige classes that overall have reduced my spell progression by two. It means I'm slinging 5th level spells around when the game is assuming I can cast 6th.

I've also gone down an "anti-caster" route. This means he's optimised against fighting casters exclusively. Most of the time in the campaign we're fighting monsters or undead or fighters, so my character isn't especially optimised for most fights. When we DO end up fighting casters, then my character truly shines. So when we fight monsters, I buff up and just sit back and watch the warblade happily destroy things. But when we fight casters, I take a more active approach, and the warblade is less at the forefront.

I've also given a certain style to my spellcasting. He's a buffer (many people have already mentioned it in this thread), and I've intentionally barred my character from learning certain spells. Examples including avoiding the Polymorph, Calling, and Summoning subschools, and he only takes teleportation spells that move other people, not himself. In character is he simply suffers from "Astral Sickness", so he hates using spells that interact with the astral plane. In doing so, I'm giving a certain flair to my spellcasting, but it's a plausible reason for restricting my options in game.

So overall, I temper myself. I enjoy optimising my character, but only within the limits I've set myself. I get to feel powerful and satisfied with my build, without trivialising the rest of the party.

[el minster]

I guess It really depends on the actual alignments of the players whether they are ok that you are carrying the party by buffing them.

[Zhepna]

play a buffer like a wizard war weaver with incantatrix. It's broken and you boost everybody like gods

play batman wizard, the others thinks they are the hero while you do everything