Nigh Impossible DC is 30

[Satori01]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3l_L-VJ3w

What DC is the action done above?

What is the DC for a rogue to squeeze through a Forcecube?

Could Martial classes “suck” because definitions of what is “nigh impossible” might be too limited?

[Man_Over_Game]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3l_L-VJ3w

What DC is the action done above?

What is the DC for a rogue to squeeze through a Forcecube?

Could Martial classes “suck” because definitions of what is “nigh impossible” might be too limited?

For reference, as the numbers will probably come up at some point:

Without magic or Expertise, but with Proficiency, a DC 30 is generally impossible to anyone who's under level 15 or so, as you need to have a total of a +10 bonus to make the attempt.

However, at max level, Expertise, you're looking at needing a 13 or higher on the die for success, which is about a 50/50 chance with Advantage. Magic can help further. Shouldn't need all this, but it's worth mentioning.

Not trying to detract from your message, just mean for it to be a reference for anyone who wants to start talking numbers.

[JackPhoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3l_L-VJ3w

What DC is the action done above?

Depends... is there any reason to roll at all? Sure, there's a chance of failure, but does the failure bring anything interesting to the game? If not, just succeed. If yes, about 15.


What is the DC for a rogue to squeeze through a Forcecube?

N/A. Impossible.

[Elbeyon]

I'd put the video at dc 25.

It is impossible to squeeze through a forcecage.

[OldTrees1]

Bwahaha
Context: I am weak. I have focused on mental exercises rather than physical exercises.
I can do the wall run you see in the video. Most of it comes from the running start and coming in at an angle.
DC Pass for half that height.
DC 5-10 for the height in the video.


Squeeze through a Force Cage? You are asking for which level can a Rogue specialized and doubly specialized in escaping Force Cages can managed to escape a Force Cage? Sounds like a L15 ability for a specialist to contrast the L9 Wall of Force. Definitely an epic skill use but Expertise is about having Epic skill use before 21st level. DC 30 ("impossible" / nigh impossible) seems reasonable to me.

[Rynjin]

Bwahaha
Context: I am weak. I have focused on mental exercises rather than physical exercises.
I can do the wall run you see in the video. Most of it comes from the running start and coming in at an angle.
DC Pass for half that height.
DC 5-10 for the height in the video.

I don't doubt most reasonably fit people could do it, but do it in the same circumstances, not as a planned move but as an on the fly adjustment to avoid injury? Nah.

I'd say for 5e between DC 20 and 25. It's not an "impossible" feat by any stretch of the imagination, so should be something a trained athlete (as shown in the video) can make as a routine check; easily done via Take 10 in safe circumstances, flubbable in dire straits.

So for a 5th level character, you're probably going to have a +10-11 Athletics or Acrobatics (whatever applies there) or so? I don't 100% remember how skills work in 5e but you still get the +3 bonus for becoming trained in a skill right? So you're be getting Proficiency (+2 at 5th I think?) plus Str or Dex +4 plus 3?

Adjust the DC lower to about 15-20 if you don't get that +3 trained bonus.

[OldTrees1]

I don't doubt most reasonably fit people could do it, but do it in the same circumstances, not as a planned move but as an on the fly adjustment to avoid injury? Nah.

I'd say for 5e between DC 20 and 25. It's not an "impossible" feat by any stretch of the imagination, so should be something a trained athlete (as shown in the video) can make as a routine check; easily done via Take 10 in safe circumstances, flubbable in dire straits.

So for a 5th level character, you're probably going to have a +10-11 Athletics or Acrobatics (whatever applies there) or so? I don't 100% remember how skills work in 5e but you still get the +3 bonus for becoming trained in a skill right? So you're be getting Proficiency (+2 at 5th I think?) plus Str or Dex +4 plus 3?

Adjust the DC lower to about 15-20 if you don't get that +3 trained bonus.

Is your DC for the action or because you called it "on the fly adjustment"?

PS: Remember 5E does not have a take 10 (closest thing takes Rogue 11). Adding in that houserule would adjust a lot of DCs.

Also remember the context I gave, I can frequently get half that height with no proficiency and an ability penalty. So I am at 1d20-1.

A 1st level with 16 Str and trained in Athletics would have 1d20+5. At 5th level that only rises to a +6.
Reasonable chart for proficient individual in their specialty:
1st: +5
5th: +6
8th: +7
9th: +8
12th: +9
13th: +10
17th: +11

[JackPhoenix]

I don't doubt most reasonably fit people could do it, but do it in the same circumstances, not as a planned move but as an on the fly adjustment to avoid injury? Nah.

I'd say for 5e between DC 20 and 25. It's not an "impossible" feat by any stretch of the imagination, so should be something a trained athlete (as shown in the video) can make as a routine check; easily done via Take 10 in safe circumstances, flubbable in dire straits.

So for a 5th level character, you're probably going to have a +10-11 Athletics or Acrobatics (whatever applies there) or so? I don't 100% remember how skills work in 5e but you still get the +3 bonus for becoming trained in a skill right? So you're be getting Proficiency (+2 at 5th I think?) plus Str or Dex +4 plus 3?

Adjust the DC lower to about 15-20 if you don't get that +3 trained bonus.

For being proficient in a skill, you.... get to add your proficiency bonus. So level 5 character should have about +6-7, if a skill is based of their primary score. +9-10 with expertise.

As mentioned, there's no Take 10 in 5e. If you aren't under pressure ("safe circumstances"), and the result of the check isn't important, you should just succeed (assuming you aren't trying to do something impossible).

[Rynjin]

Is your DC for the action or because you called it "on the fly adjustment"?

PS: Remember 5E does not have a take 10 (closest thing takes Rogue 11). Adding in that houserule would adjust a lot of DCs.

Also remember the context I gave, I can frequently get half that height with no proficiency and an ability penalty. So I am at 1d20-1.

A 1st level with 16 Str and trained in Athletics would have 1d20+5. At 5th level that only rises to a +6.
Reasonable chart for proficient individual in their specialty:
1st: +5
5th: +6
8th: +7
9th: +8
12th: +9
13th: +10
17th: +11

Given that, I think the DC 17-ish sounds about right then. Average 11 makes it easily doable but possible to fail.

Keep in mind that getting half that height doesn't mean it's anywhere within the same realm to get that height. There's an order of magnitude between the jumping skill and strength required to make a 2 foot vertical leap and a 3 foot one, as an example; a 2 foot leap is something the average male should be able to make, while 28 inches is the average professional level jump for NBA players.

[OldTrees1]

Given that, I think the DC 17-ish sounds about right then. Average 11 makes it easily doable but possible to fail.

Keep in mind that getting half that height doesn't mean it's anywhere within the same realm to get that height. There's an order of magnitude between the jumping skill and strength required to make a 2 foot vertical leap and a 3 foot one, as an example; a 2 foot leap is something the average male should be able to make, while 28 inches is the average professional level jump for NBA players.

In 5E an 11 on a d20 might not classify as "easily doable but possible to fail" unless you meant "easily failable but possible to do". I would normally aim closer to 75% pass with that verbiage.

I agree there is an OoM gap. That is why I added +5 to +10 to the DC between my ability and the video.

However there will always be slight subjective difference. DC 10 vs DC 17 is a smaller gap than DC 5 vs DC 25.

[Mellack]

Running along a wall like that seems pretty simple to me. I have seen plenty of kids able to do that in high school. I would give it a DC 10 or so.

Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd7I0TEWcg0

As to escaping a forcecage, no roll. Can't do it. The spell specifically says creatures inside are trapped, and I don't see that it is possible to escape through a 1/2 inch gap via skill.

[FabulousFizban]

looks about DC 13. A DC30 pretty much would be farting through a forcecube. I play DCs like this: DC10 Easy, DC15 Medium, DC20 hard, DC 25 very hard, DC30 seducing the tarrasque. If you have a player who has built a character that can consistently hit 30s, that character is legendarily good at that skill; like Orpheus playing the lyre or Shakespeare writing a sonnet. Don't punish the player for their choice, hype it up. Make it part of the story: why can this person deceive satan himself, or sail the oceans with a plank and a star? Did a goddess bless them? Is it part of a curse?! Or maybe they've spent years honing a particular set of skills; skills they have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make them a nightmare for people like you.

Players give you more to work with than just their backstories. Build itself is a backstory. Exploring why that character has a 27 strength and dual wields greatswords can be as narratively rewarding as even the best edgy rogue tale. And don't let your players off the hook! Make them come up with narrative reasons for the existence of their perfect munchkin. Then incorporate the reasons into your game, no matter how silly they may be. Let the players know their actions have consequences. If they flippantly write say... oh, "Inuyasha" under their backstory, fine, they now have a powerful evil brother who wants to kill them and steal their power.

You have to remember that d&d is a collaborative experience, and that the collaboration is more important than any individual idea you may have. Putting a player's ideas into the game, even silly ones, shows them that you take their involvement seriously, and aren't just holding them hostage while you tell a story.

[Mr Adventurer]

As to escaping a forcecage, no roll. Can't do it. The spell specifically says creatures inside are trapped, and I don't see that it is possible to escape through a 1/2 inch gap via skill.

Agree - but, in 3.5e there were rules for characters above level 20 and impossible feats they could achieve with insane DCs - including this very feat. For the right game, I'd consider introducing something like that for beyond-20 characters.

Of course, some would say that such impossible feats ought to be within the realm of simply high-level physical adepts. I wouldn't necessarily argue but it would be a bigger overhaul.

[Fable Wright]

Running along a wall like that seems pretty simple to me. I have seen plenty of kids able to do that in high school. I would give it a DC 10 or so.

Agreed. I've been that kid, even. I'd give it a DC 13.


A DC30 pretty much would be farting through a forcecube. I play DCs like this: DC10 Easy, DC15 Medium, DC20 hard, DC 25 very hard, DC30 seducing the tarrasque.

I've seen players breach DC 35 plenty of times, and hit DC 40 twice. Might want to up the scale for seducing the Tarrasque.

(The first DC 40 was Mark of Handling + Guidance + Expertise in Nature + 20 Wisdom; second DC 40 was Expertise in Athletics + 20 Str + Bardic Inspiration die rolling a 9.)

[Composer99]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3l_L-VJ3w

What DC is the action done above?

What is the DC for a rogue to squeeze through a Forcecube?

Could Martial classes “suck” because definitions of what is “nigh impossible” might be too limited?

I'd allow the stunt in the video or similar stunt as a type of climbing (no check, spend 2 feet of movement per foot traversed). If a check was needed due to circumstances, the DC wouldd be 10-15.

Escaping a force cage by squeezing through it is impossible, save for house rules otherwise.

[OldTrees1]

I've seen players breach DC 35 plenty of times, and hit DC 40 twice. Might want to up the scale for seducing the Tarrasque.

(The first DC 40 was Mark of Handling + Guidance + Expertise in Nature + 20 Wisdom; second DC 40 was Expertise in Athletics + 20 Str + Bardic Inspiration die rolling a 9.)

At DC 40 I would expect something more impressive than DC 30. I don't think seducing the Tarrasque would need to be the end of the line. Just treat it like an epic feat as a result of a class specialized in doing high level skills combined with a group effort of buffing their use. And even then just in a few areas.

[Tanarii]

How often do I think a trained professional athlete with no gear running at full speed (ie faster than a character taking the dash action to jog in full gear) at a padded wall and putting a foot 8ft up it, and what's the resulting DC? Does not compute, that's not a game situation and I don't to think about how game mechanics can simulate real life.

[Telok]

I asked a guy who runs 5e but doesn't do forums and got a response of dc23 "because that's a monk thing and random commoners shouldn't do it just with rolling a d20".

[JNAProductions]

I asked a guy who runs 5e but doesn't do forums and got a response of dc23 "because that's a monk thing and random commoners shouldn't do it just with rolling a d20".

Why 23 though?

Even if you want it to be impossible to a commoner, that's just 21.

[OldTrees1]

I asked a guy who runs 5e but doesn't do forums and got a response of dc23 "because that's a monk thing and random commoners shouldn't do it just with rolling a d20".

I guess this highlights the weakness of bounded accuracy if you don't follow the "only allow rolls if it is possible".

Consider the claims "X is a Y thing. A first level commoner shouldn't be able to do it even with a 20" and "X is a Y thing. A max level Y shouldn't be able to fail even with a 1".
1d20+0 < 1d20+11
20+0 < 1+11
20 < 12
Error

When the person who can't succeed and the person who can't fail overlap on almost 50% of the bell curve, the math alone cannot simulate the narrative you want.

[JNAProductions]

I guess this highlights the weakness of bounded accuracy if you don't follow the "only allow rolls if it is possible".

Consider the claims "X is a Y thing. A first level commoner shouldn't be able to do it even with a 20" and "X is a Y thing. A max level Y shouldn't be able to fail even with a 1".
1d20+0 < 1d20+11
20+0 < 1+11
20 < 12
Error

It is, as far as I can tell, designed so that even with 20 and Expertise (the highest you can reach in the PHB) there is one check (DC 19) that the worst PC can succeed on and the best can fail.

[OldTrees1]

It is, as far as I can tell, designed so that even with 20 and Expertise (the highest you can reach in the PHB) there is one check (DC 19) that the worst PC can succeed on and the best can fail.

20 - 1 + 0 vs 1 + 5 + 12
19 vs 18
The worst can pass DC 19
The best expertise can fail DC 19

Of course if you do adopt the "Only call for a roll when the outcome is in doubt" to remove this contention, you will still have this contention.

When someone gets good enough that their failure is no longer assured on the narrative level, what do you set the failure rate at? (Desired failure rate determines DC)

When someone is not quite good enough that their success to be assured on the narrative level, what do you set the failure rate at? (Desired failure rate determines DC)

Want to bet those two individuals overlap on 75% of the bell curve? If you set a constant DC you will not be satisfied in both cases.

Edited to match assumptions

[Lucas Yew]

No idea. No idea. Definitely yes.

No idea why the DMG never had examples per skill mapped to DC 10~30, which would have helped newbie DMs' campaign building immensely...

[MaxWilson]

It is, as far as I can tell, designed so that even with 20 and Expertise (the highest you can reach in the PHB) there is one check (DC 19) that the worst PC can succeed on and the best can fail.

An Int 3 PC with no proficiency has -4 to Int checks, cannot succeed on a DC 19 check. He can only succeed on DC 16 checks.

[JNAProductions]

An Int 3 PC with no proficiency has -4 to Int checks, cannot succeed on a DC 19 check. He can only succeed on DC 16 checks.

And with Point Buy/Standard Array, with PHB only races, the lowest you can have is an 8.

[Sorinth]

Is your DC for the action or because you called it "on the fly adjustment"?

PS: Remember 5E does not have a take 10 (closest thing takes Rogue 11). Adding in that houserule would adjust a lot of DCs.

It's not called take 10 or take 20 anymore but 5e most certainly has that. In the DMG page 237 under the Multiple Ability Checks. Basically if the task is something that is repeatable then it simply takes 10 times as long as normal to complete but the character automatically succeeds.

[sithlordnergal]

20 + 0 + 0 vs 1 + 5 + 12
20 vs 18
The worst can pass DC 19-20
The best expertise can fail DC 19-20

Of course if you do adopt the "Only call for a roll when the outcome is in doubt" to remove this contention, you will still have this contention.

When someone gets good enough that their failure is no longer assured on the narrative level, what do you set the failure rate at? (Desired failure rate determines DC)

When someone is not quite good enough that their success to be assured on the narrative level, what do you set the failure rate at? (Desired failure rate determines DC)

Want to bet those two individuals overlap on 75% of the bell curve? If you set a constant DC you will not be satisfied in both cases.


I mean, those are very extreme examples...and you're also looking at a single dice roll using those extreme examples. Given the fact that you set the rolls to a 1 and 20, there's a 0.25% chance of that happening, or a 1/400 chance if you prefer numbers that look bigger. Even if the DC is just a 10, the person with a +17 will succeed 100% of the time, even if you give them disadvantage and a -5 penalty to the roll, while the person with a +0 succeeds roughly half the time. Heck,the person with a +17 literally does not need to roll until the DC reaches 19 or higher, and even then person who has a +17 only has a 10% chance of failure on a DC 19-20. Compare that to someone with a +0, who has a 90% chance of failure.

You're far better off at looking at how consistent a character is, rather than looking at the extremes. Why? Because occasionally the highly trained professional can/does fail in a task they've done 100 times, while the guy who hasn't done before managed to get lucky and do it at least once. That 10% chance of failure is what happens when the professional fails.


EDIT: As for the video, I'd put that at DC 5, with the DC increasing by 5 for every 5 feet added to the run.Why? Because I can do that while running at a wall, and I don't work out, I don't run, I'm not in shape or athletic in any form. The Forcecage is impossible though, simply due to the spell description.

[heavyfuel]

Video is probably DC 12 or 13. Just a couple steps isn't too hard. Something a regular person (Dex 10, no proficiency) has to try a few time to be able to do but that anyone above average (Dex 12, proficiency) can do with no problems (due to passive checks).

The DC for squeezing through a Wall of Force is no DC, because that's explicitly impossible: "Nothing can physically pass through the wall"

The DC for squeezing between the bars of a Forcecage? That's half an inch. I'd say it's also impossible for 99% of characters, which means more than a "nigh impossible" DC 30. I'd peg it as a "only very slightly possible for an extremely well trained person" DC 35. Only at high levels and with Expertise can you do it.


I'd put the video at dc 25.

That is way too high for a few steps that ANY parkour practicioner can do.

[MaxWilson]

And with Point Buy/Standard Array, with PHB only races, the lowest you can have is an 8.

And with core PHB rules, the lowest you can have is a 3. Standard Array is only an option if "you want to save time or don't like the idea of randomly determining ability scores." Point by is another variant "at the DM's option" for those who dislike rolling.

3 is the lowest PHB-PC ability score. QED.



The DC for squeezing between the bars of a Forcecage? That's half an inch. I'd say it's also impossible for 99% of characters, which means more than a "nigh impossible" DC 30. I'd peg it as a "only very slightly possible for an extremely well trained person" DC 35. Only at high levels and with Expertise can you do it.

Forcecage bars have only half-inch gaps. No amount of skill lets a regular human compress their skull through a half-inch gap without dying. It's impossible unless you have a very strange physiology. DC "that would kill you, nope."

Maybe a DC 30 Strength check to force someone else's body through the bars. You'll need a Revivify spell after, and a mop.

[Elbeyon]

That is way too high for a few steps that ANY parkour practicioner can do.I saw a professional athlete catch a ball then perform parkour. The average person would not be able to do that one out of twenty times. It might take hundreds of tries. They are an expert with years of training performing a very hard task.

[heavyfuel]

Forcecage bars have only half-inch gaps. No amount of skill lets a regular human compress their skull through a half-inch gap without dying. It's impossible unless you have a very strange physiology. DC "that would kill you, nope."

I'm okay with very high DCs allowing for supernatural feats of skills. Kinda like when 3e allowed characters to balance on clouds.

Does it make sense in the context of real life? No, it doesn't. Does it make sense in the context of something a legendary hero, who's known accross entire planes of existance for being a master escape artist, can maybe do? I think so.


I saw a professional athletic catch a ball then perform parkour. The average person would not be able to do that one out of twenty times. It might take hundreds of tries. They are an expert with years of training performing a very hard task.

The catching of the ball and the parkour are probably different checks though.

I doubt this baseball player is an expert with years of training in parkour, and it's definitely not a very hard task as far as parkour goes.

[Elbeyon]

The catching of the ball and the parkour are probably different checks though.

I doubt this baseball player is an expert with years of training in parkour, and it's definitely not a very hard task as far as parkour goes.You are free to rule it differently at your table.

[heavyfuel]

You are free to rule it differently at your table.

Sure am. But I'll always seize an opportunity to advocate against "guy at the gym" sydrome. Or worse yet, "I can't do it, so it must be impossibly difficult" syndrome.

[MaxWilson]

I'm okay with very high DCs allowing for supernatural feats of skills. Kinda like when 3e allowed characters to balance on clouds.

Does it make sense in the context of real life? No, it doesn't. Does it make sense in the context of something a legendary hero, who's known accross entire planes of existance for being a master escape artist, can maybe do? I think so.

But what physically HAPPENS when he does so? Is it different from what physically happens when the 4th level Dex 14 wizard, assisted by lucky rolls on Guidance and Bardic Inspiration, also rolls a 35?

To me, rolling well on an ability check indicates flawless execution (and sometimes lucky breaks on top), not arbitrary suspension of the laws of nature.

[OldTrees1]

It's not called take 10 or take 20 anymore but 5e most certainly has that. In the DMG page 237 under the Multiple Ability Checks. Basically if the task is something that is repeatable then it simply takes 10 times as long as normal to complete but the character automatically succeeds.

I did not mention "take 20" and what you mentioned was not "take 10". When you read the subthread you will see why clarifying the 5E system was relevant to that subthread.


I mean, those are very extreme examples...and you're also looking at a single dice roll using those extreme examples. Given the fact that you set the rolls to a 1 and 20, there's a 0.25% chance of that happening, or a 1/400 chance if you prefer numbers that look bigger. Even if the DC is just a 10, the person with a +17 will succeed 100% of the time, even if you give them disadvantage and a -5 penalty to the roll, while the person with a +0 succeeds roughly half the time. Heck,the person with a +17 literally does not need to roll until the DC reaches 19 or higher, and even then person who has a +17 only has a 10% chance of failure on a DC 19-20. Compare that to someone with a +0, who has a 90% chance of failure.

You're far better off at looking at how consistent a character is, rather than looking at the extremes. Why? Because occasionally the highly trained professional can/does fail in a task they've done 100 times, while the guy who hasn't done before managed to get lucky and do it at least once. That 10% chance of failure is what happens when the professional fails.

If you are arguing against "Lvl 1 commoner should never succeed at X" and "Max level specialist should always succeed at X" for some X. Then you are not replying to this subthread. That is okay, but it does give me a bit of whiplash as it slowly dawns on me.

I commonly see people arguing for "Lvl 1 commoner should never succeed at X" when setting DCs. I explained why adopting that premise AND its mirror equivalent would lead you to following the rules about only calling for rolls when the outcome is in doubt.

I then stepped in from those extremes and gave a thought experiment that shows the math still has trouble supporting cases near those extremes if you stick with static DCs. For example if a +5 and a +10 were the positions you chose then they overlap in 75% of the bell curve. Assuming symmetry, that means +1 and +10 sharing a DC16 for a 70% failure and 25% failure respectively. That sudden jump of 25-30% is the consequence of wanting the +0 and +11 to not share the same bell curve.

In summary: If you want to set DCs to make it impossible for "commoners because it is a monk thing" and accept the mirror claim of wanting a maxed practitioner always succeed, then you need to only call for rolls when the outcome is in doubt, and even then you will get a sudden jump of 25-30% (or more) at the edges of needing to call for the roll.


EDIT: As for the video, I'd put that at DC 5, with the DC increasing by 5 for every 5 feet added to the run.Why? Because I can do that while running at a wall, and I don't work out, I don't run, I'm not in shape or athletic in any form. The Forcecage is impossible though, simply due to the spell description.

The wording is a bit unclear. Is the DC increasing with the amount of running start? Or with the height? I assume the height of the wall run.

Sounds similar to my estimate. I can get less than 5ft reliably despite weak and no training. So DC 0-5 makes sense. Then the athlete made it 8ft, so that could be DC 5-10.

[heavyfuel]

But what physically HAPPENS when he does so?

I don't know. I've never seen a DC 35 being made to know, but just because it's something I cannot imagine a human doing, it doesn't mean a superhuman cannot do it. Maybe I'd rule it as a super short burst of etherealness, not enough to be useful in combat, but enough to go through a half inch obstacle.

I mean, if a monk can teleport through shadows without using magic, I'm sure this demonstrates that things besides magic are capable of supernatural in D&D

I'm not saying that if the DM ruled as "it's impossible" I'd get angry, I'm just saying that this is how I'd rule.

The rules already permit superhuman stuff that makes no sense if you analyze from a real world perspective. How do high level characters shrug off a fall from the stratosphere? I dunno, they just do.

[OldTrees1]

But what physically HAPPENS when he does so? Is it different from what physically happens when the 4th level Dex 14 wizard, assisted by lucky rolls on Guidance and Bardic Inspiration, also rolls a 35?

To me, rolling well on an ability check indicates flawless execution, not arbitrary suspension of the laws of nature.

Do you know the 3.5E explanation for escape artist through a wall of force? It is finding a weak point in the forcefield that you can push through.


Although if you find a reason Evasion works in D&D and not IRL, then you might be able to use that to build reasons for other things that fit the D&D verisimilitude but not realism.

[heavyfuel]

Is it different from what physically happens when the 4th level Dex 14 wizard, assisted by lucky rolls on Guidance and Bardic Inspiration, also rolls a 35?

On a side note, I feel that situations such as these is why the developers were dumb in the introduction of these mechanics at level 1 in a game with Bounded Accuracy.

Guidance should be a 3rd level spell, if not higher, and Bardic Inspiration should be at best a +1.

[MaxWilson]

I don't know. I've never seen a DC 35 being made to know, but just because it's something I cannot imagine a human doing, it doesn't mean a superhuman cannot do it. Maybe I'd rule it as a super short burst of etherealness, not enough to be useful in combat, but enough to go through a half inch obstacle.

I mean, if a monk can teleport through shadows without using magic, I'm sure this demonstrates that things besides magic are capable of supernatural in D&D

I'm not saying that if the DM ruled as "it's impossible" I'd get angry, I'm just saying that this is how I'd rule.

The rules already permit superhuman stuff that makes no sense if you analyze from a real world perspective. How do high level characters shrug off a fall from the stratosphere? I dunno, they just do.

So a 4th level wizard or fighter sometimes turns mysteriously ethereal to squeeze between narrow bars, as long as the bard and the druid are inspiring/guiding them? That has interesting implications.

[heavyfuel]

So a 4th level wizard or fighter sometimes turns mysteriously ethereal to squeeze between narrow bars, as long as the bard and the druid are inspiring/guiding them? That has interesting implications.

Like I said, both Bardic Inspiration and Guidance are dumb. I haven't had a bard in my games yet, but Guidance was something I straigh up banned the Cleric from picking up. Exactly to avoid situations such as these (and to avoid the constant screams of "I use Guidance!!!" and "Don't forget my Guidance d4!!!!")

[JNAProductions]

So a 4th level wizard or fighter sometimes turns mysteriously ethereal to squeeze between narrow bars, as long as the bard and the druid are inspiring/guiding them? That has interesting implications.

With Dex +2 and Guidance +4, you'd need a minimum of +9 on the Bardic Inspiration. Meaning a level 10 Bard minimum.

Considering that Forcecage can be cast at level 9, why is it unreasonable that a level 4 PC can, with help from two other PCs, one of whom is level 10 at the minimum, escape a level 5 spell half a percent of the time?

[OldTrees1]

Considering that Forcecage can be cast at level 9

Typo? Did you mean Wall of Force? Or is there a way to do Forcecage at level 9?

[heavyfuel]

Forcecage[/I] can be cast at level 9

psst I think you mean Wall of Force

[JNAProductions]

Typo? Did you mean Wall of Force? Or is there a way to do Forcecage at level 9?

Not a typo-just me making a mistake.

But, yeah, that's minimum level 13. My point remains, though-half a percent of the time, a level 4 PC with good Dexterity, a spell, and a 10th level PC's help can do the nigh-impossible. That's not a bad thing.

[Calimehter]

Maybe a DC 30 Strength check to force someone else's body through the bars. You'll need a Revivify spell after, and a mop.

Heh. Reminds me of all those beasties in Infinity War who were "passing their checks" by forcing their way through the force fields.

Sometimes the better question to ask about a DC 30 check is if success is much better than failure. See also "seducing the Tarrasque". 😄

[Satori01]

So a 4th level wizard or fighter sometimes turns mysteriously ethereal to squeeze between narrow bars, as long as the bard and the druid are inspiring/guiding them? That has interesting implications.

Yes, the implication is: that the line between the conceivable, the possible and the impossible is magical and a bit ineffable.

For a Fighter or Wizard to roll the maximum result, on three near simultaneous rolls to hit or exceed DC 30, earns the player the right to perform something Extraordinary.

Hopefully it was on something narratively cool like a Animal Handling, check to leave an offering to summon Giant Eagles to fly you through the Howling Canyon or a Stealth check to run through a campfire circle of goblins without being seen.


Is Pulp Fiction a worse movie for having the ‘Miracle’ with Vincent and Jules, and the gunman?

A bit of mystery, is a cool springboard for ideas....and adds life.

[Composer99]

You are free to rule it differently at your table.

That may be, but when this thread literally has people describing themselves doing the very same thing when they were teenagers and/or watching other teenagers do the very same thing, isn't it worth reconsidering whatever verisimilitude model you use to decide it's fiendishly difficult?

[MaxWilson]

With Dex +2 and Guidance +4, you'd need a minimum of +9 on the Bardic Inspiration. Meaning a level 10 Bard minimum.

Considering that Forcecage can be cast at level 9, why is it unreasonable that a level 4 PC can, with help from two other PCs, one of whom is level 10 at the minimum, escape a level 5 spell half a percent of the time?

We've been talking about Expertise (without saying what skill is involved), so it's possible for the wizard to have proficiency on whatever skill is involved. Therefore you only need +7 on the Bardic Inspiration, meaning a level 5 Bard.

One implication: in this campaign, the Ethereal is very close to the prime material plane, and normal people are apparently this close to being able to access it most of the time. It's typically just beyond their reach, but some guidance and inspiration is enough to turn the infeasible into the impossible--going ethereal in such a campaign is like sinking a basketball from the other side of the court is in real life, not like flapping your arms and flying to the moon. Although flapping your arms and flying may be possible in such a campaign too.

================================================== ===================


Yes, the implication is: that the line between the conceivable, the possible and the impossible is magical and a bit ineffable.

For a Fighter or Wizard to roll the maximum result, on three near simultaneous rolls to hit or exceed DC 30, earns the player the right to perform something Extraordinary.

That was to hit DC 35 with an unremarkable Dex at 4th level. If you're just trying to hit DC 30, you could do that without Bardic Inspiration at all. E.g. 5th level, proficiency, Dex 18 = +7, then add +d4 for guidance and this DC 30 feat is now something you can do pretty reliably, about once in every 40 tries. It's easier for you than whistling is for me.

[JNAProductions]

We've been talking about Expertise (without saying what skill is involved), so it's possible for the wizard to have proficiency on whatever skill is involved. Therefore you only need +7 on the Bardic Inspiration, meaning a level 5 Bard.

One implication: in this campaign, the Ethereal is very close to the prime material plane, and normal people are apparently this close to being able to access it most of the time. It's typically just beyond their reach, but some guidance and inspiration is enough to turn the infeasible into the impossible--going ethereal in such a campaign is like sinking a basketball from the other side of the court is in real life, not like flapping your arms and flying to the moon. Although flapping your arms and flying may be possible in such a campaign too.


But what physically HAPPENS when he does so? Is it different from what physically happens when the 4th level Dex 14 wizard, assisted by lucky rolls on Guidance and Bardic Inspiration, also rolls a 35?

To me, rolling well on an ability check indicates flawless execution (and sometimes lucky breaks on top), not arbitrary suspension of the laws of nature.

Question: How is this Wizard getting Expertise?

[MaxWilson]

Question: How is this Wizard getting Expertise?

He's not. He's getting proficiency through his background or a racial pick (e.g. vhuman, half-elf).

[Mellack]

Lets say we have Karg, a level 5 half-orc thief. Bruiser type. Since Karg has gotten a ASI, lets say he has a strength of 18. Karg also took athletics as one of his expertise since it is so useful. Karg is fascinated by the moon. When it is full, it seems he can reach out and touch it. Karg decides he is going to jump to the moon. He has a +10 athletics, so he can make a DC30 check. How long until Karg jumps to the moon?

[JNAProductions]

He's not. He's getting proficiency through his background or a racial pick (e.g. vhuman, half-elf).

Then why bring up Expertise?

And sure, that increases the odds to .63%. Notice how it'll take more than 100 attempts to have that happen, on average.

If your point is that "D&D isn't particularly good at modeling reality when compared to something like a dice pool system" then okay, sure. But if your point is that it'd be an issue in actual play...

To have an aggregate 20% chance of it happening, you'd need to attempt it 36 times.

Assuming a level 5 Bard with Guidance and Charisma 20 aiding a level 1-4 Wizard with 14 Dex and Proficiency in the check, you'd need seven hours of attempting it, since the Bard only has five uses of Bardic Inspiration before needing a short rest.


Lets say we have Karg, a level 5 half-orc thief. Bruiser type. Since Karg has gotten a ASI, lets say he has a strength of 18. Karg also took athletics as one of his expertise since it is so useful. Karg is fascinated by the moon. When it is full, it seems he can reach out and touch it. Karg decides he is going to jump to the moon. He has a +10 athletics, so he can make a DC30 check. How long until Karg jumps to the moon?

Never. There are different shades of impossible-assuming a celestial arrangement like ours, you'd need to jump just shy of 240,000 miles. (Different arrangements of planets and moons might be further or nearer, of course.)

Edit: Also, I would like to point out, worming through a Wall of Force or Forcecage is something you might have to do to save another PC/a prince(ss)/the MacGuffin. Jumping to the moon... Not so much.

[MaxWilson]

Then why bring up Expertise?

Because it proves that skills are applicable to this ability check: we're clearly doing something like Dexterity (Acrobatics) instead of just plain Dexterity.

[JNAProductions]

Because it proves that skills are applicable to this ability check: we're clearly doing something like Dexterity (Acrobatics) instead of just plain Dexterity.

Okay.

Do you think this is anything even approaching an issue in actual play? Or is this like the "Rogues are better at Arcana than Wizards" thing, where it can theoretical happen, but to my knowledge, is such a niche situation that it's safely ignorable.

[MaxWilson]

Okay.

Do you think this is anything even approaching an issue in actual play? Or is this like the "Rogues are better at Arcana than Wizards" thing, where it can theoretical happen, but to my knowledge, is such a niche situation that it's safely ignorable.

What is the antecedent of "this" in your question? Is your question about 4th level PCs or lack of narrative coherence if 4th level PCs are denied the ability to do what 20th level PCs can do on the same skill check? I would say the latter is a serious play issue, and the former is just a weird gameworld where apparently the Ethereal plane is very close. Depending on what else is possible on a skill check there may be other weird things that can happen as well, and if so then it starts to approach what could potentially be a play issue in the same way that binary gravity is a play issue for some people.

What's your actual question?

[Mellack]

Never. There are different shades of impossible-assuming a celestial arrangement like ours, you'd need to jump just shy of 240,000 miles. (Different arrangements of planets and moons might be further or nearer, of course.)

Edit: Also, I would like to point out, worming through a Wall of Force or Forcecage is something you might have to do to save another PC/a prince(ss)/the MacGuffin. Jumping to the moon... Not so much.

So it really just comes down to what a person considers impossible? Going through a wall of force, which says "Nothing can physically pass through the wall." is actually possible, but jumping to the moon is not. That seems unsettling to me. It seems to be a game of DM may I?

[JNAProductions]

So it really just comes down to what a person considers impossible? Going through a wall of force, which says "Nothing can physically pass through the wall." is actually possible, but jumping to the moon is not. That seems unsettling to me. It seems to be a game of DM may I?

You don't see the difference between making your way through a magical barrier of force with nothing but grit and skill and jumping literally 40,000,000 times further than your move speed? (Assuming 30' move speed.)

Ultimately, some things will be determined by the DM. If you're worried that your DM is a jerk who won't play fair, I'd recommend not playing with them. But good DMs will listen to the players-they may or may not change their minds, but they'll at least make an effort to compromise.

[Tanarii]

You don't see the difference between making your way through a magical barrier of force with nothing but grit and skill and jumping literally 40,000,000 times further than your move speed? (Assuming 30' move speed.)The former explicitly can't be done at all because the written rule for the spell says so, whereas the latter depends on what DC the DM decides to set because the rule says exceeding your jump can be exceeded with a check?

Of course, if we're talking about squeezing between a 1/2" space it's DM judgement on both sides,

I was gonna blue text that first, when I realized it's not really a funny joke. Its actually what the rules say about the two. :smalleek:

[Mellack]

You don't see the difference between making your way through a magical barrier of force with nothing but grit and skill and jumping literally 40,000,000 times further than your move speed? (Assuming 30' move speed.)



One of those is specifically spelled out in the rules as impossible. The other is one that is generally considered impossible. The DM is allowing a skill to overcome the one that is spelled out as impossible. I think it is less surprising that they would let it do something not listed.

[JNAProductions]

One of those is specifically spelled out in the rules as impossible. The other is one that is generally considered impossible. The DM is allowing a skill to overcome the one that is spelled out as impossible. I think it is less surprising that they would let it do something not listed.

I am not a computer. I am capable of interpreting the rules of simulating fictional reality though the lens of a human.

Even if you want to look at it from a gamist point of view, giving magicless PCs optionsto counter magic is, in general, a good thing, provided they aren't too easy.
From a narrative point of view, going to the moon is just death, but sneaking through a Force construct could be quite helpful to letting the players exert narrative influence.

[Mellack]

I am not a computer. I am capable of interpreting the rules of simulating fictional reality though the lens of a human.

Even if you want to look at it from a gamist point of view, giving magicless PCs optionsto counter magic is, in general, a good thing, provided they aren't too easy.
From a narrative point of view, going to the moon is just death, but sneaking through a Force construct could be quite helpful to letting the players exert narrative influence.

Then what if instead of the moon, Krag asks to try to jump to the top of the BBEG tower, 200 feet tall? That could be needed to save the princess, just like passing through the wall of force. Can Krag jump to the top? Why or why not?

[JNAProductions]

Then what if instead of the moon, Krag asks to try to jump to the top of the BBEG tower, 200 feet tall? That could be needed to save the princess, just like passing through the wall of force. Can Krag jump to the top? Why or why not?

That's more reasonable. I do question why he feels the need to specifically jump, and cannot climb.

[Satori01]

That was to hit DC 35 with an unremarkable Dex at 4th level. If you're just trying to hit DC 30, you could do that without Bardic Inspiration at all. E.g. 5th level, proficiency, Dex 18 = +7, then add +d4 for guidance and this DC 30 feat is now something you can do pretty reliably, about once in every 40 tries. It's easier for you than whistling is for me.

Right, requires a d20 roll of 19, and a maximum result on the d4. So essentially, your argument is a PC with a near maximum ability score, can with a roll of 19 on a d20, and a maximum roll on the d4 from Guidance can achieve a nigh impossible result at level 5, sometimes.

So how many D&D sessions is 40 attempts of a particular ability/skill roll?

6 Stealth rolls a session means 6-7 sessions to hit another Jackpot, maybe.

[JackPhoenix]

That's more reasonable. I do question why he feels the need to specifically jump, and cannot climb.

For the same reason the rogue can't find a way around or wait 10 minutes until the WoF ends, presumably.

[heavyfuel]

One implication: in this campaign, the Ethereal is very close to the prime material plane, and normal people are apparently this close to being able to access it most of the time. It's typically just beyond their reach, but some guidance and inspiration is enough to turn the infeasible into the impossible--going ethereal in such a campaign is like sinking a basketball from the other side of the court is in real life, not like flapping your arms and flying to the moon. Although flapping your arms and flying may be possible in such a campaign too.

So?

The Echo Knight and the Shadow Monk, can use non magical teleportation with their class abilities. Important to reiterate: It's not magic.

These are things that work inside an AMF.

It's obvious that in most (all?) D&D campaigns, supernatural feats are possible without the aid of magic.

As for flapping your arms to the moon. Sure, let's say it's a DC 35 to fly 5ft with an Athletics check. Good luck making that many checks in a row.

[LudicSavant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3l_L-VJ3w

What DC is the action done above?. Running on the wall? No roll required.

[MaxWilson]

So?

The Echo Knight and the Shadow Monk, can use non magical teleportation with their class abilities. Important to reiterate: It's not magic.

These are things that work inside an AMF.

Dunamancy is a form of magic, and echoes are explicitly magical ("...use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo", Explorer's Guide To Wildemont pg 183). Doesn't work inside an AMF.

Shadow Jump is DM's call as to what physically happens when you use it. Might involve magic, might not.

[heavyfuel]

Shadow Jump is DM's call as to what physically happens when you use it. Might involve magic, might not.

Even if your DM unjustifiably decides to massively nerf the Shadow Monk by saying it's magical, it doesn't explain other non magical supernatural feats that exist in the game like Evasion and shruging off fall damage

[MaxWilson]

Even if your DM unjustifiably decides to massively nerf the Shadow Monk by saying it's magical, it doesn't explain other non magical supernatural feats that exist in the game like Evasion and shruging off fall damage

Quoting from Sage Advice Compendium:

You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:
• the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
• the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect
In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about. When a rule refers to something being magical, it’s referring to that second type. Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:

People can have different opinions on whether stuff like a low-level PC falling from orbit, surviving the 20d6, and being back on his feet at positive HP mere hours later is supernatural or just poorly-written rules, but there's not much room for the claim that it's both supernatural and non-magical. "Magic" in 5E is pervasive, and not all of it is the kind of spell-linked magic that is affected by Anti-Magic Fields.

There's also alternate physics like binary gravity, which is arguably neither supernatural nor magical even though it's very different from Earth physics. HP may or may not be a manifestation of these alternate physics--that's a question for the individual DM.

[WaroftheCrans]

My problem with dc 30 is that it's too easily achievable. With some friends, a bard can achieve it on average. Help action brings the average d20 to 15.5. Guidance and bardic inspiration from the case bring up another 9 on average. With an artificer you can get +5, a cleric can bless, wild magic can bend luck and then you get jack of all trades. With all of those, your average is a 42 for a skill that the bard doesn't have proficiency in, and only a 10 in the stat.

Of coupe you likely won't have all of the extras, such as bane, flash of brilliance or bend luck, but 30 is still too easily achievable.

[OldTrees1]

My problem with dc 30 is that it's too easily achievable. With some friends, a bard can achieve it on average. Help action brings the average d20 to 15.5. Guidance and bardic inspiration from the case bring up another 9 on average. With an artificer you can get +5, a cleric can bless, wild magic can bend luck and then you get jack of all trades. With all of those, your average is a 42 for a skill that the bard doesn't have proficiency in, and only a 10 in the stat.

Of coupe you likely won't have all of the extras, such as bane, flash of brilliance or bend luck, but 30 is still too easily achievable.

Bardic Inspiration (choose one creature other than yourself) and Jack of All Trades don't stack unless you have 2 Bards.

Bless does not affect skill checks and you already counted Guidance.

Guidance + Bardic Inspiration is 1d4+1d6 (average 6) to start with. Obviously higher level inspiration is a higher level ability and thus should be bigger.

However you are right, if the party specializes in buffing each other, then they will have impressive ability checks.

In practice I have seen Help and Guidance but I have not seen entire parties specialize in buffing.

Also, at some level, some DC 30s should be achievable by those that spend class features on being able to do DC 30s.

[JNAProductions]

Bless doesn't work on ability checks. Attacks and saves only.

Edit: My bad, was literally just pointed out. But yeah-if you're pouring that many resources into a check, you SHOULD be able to do something impressive.

[WaroftheCrans]

Bardic Inspiration (choose one creature other than yourself) and Jack of All Trades don't stack unless you have 2 Bards.

Bless does not affect skill checks and you already counted Guidance.

Guidance + Bardic Inspiration is 1d4+1d6 (average 6) to start with. Obviously higher level inspiration is a higher level ability and thus should be bigger.

However you are right, if the party specializes in buffing each other, then they will have impressive ability checks.

In practice I have seen Help and Guidance but I have not seen entire parties specialize in buffing.

Also, at some level, some DC 30s should be achievable by those that spend class features on being able to do DC 30s.

Yeah, I was presuming t3 in here, and a d12 for the bardic inspiration die. I'm not saying that level 1 characters can easily achieve it, I'm saying that as you in higher tier, a character who doesn't specialize can achieve high results consistently. The bonuses I included aren't necessary or even probable in a party. I could have included dark ones own luck for instance, but that wasn't my goal.

The goal is to show that at higher tiers, things like seducing the tarrasque should most certainly be higher. I should've quoted the person who said that, because it requires no extraordinary investment or luck to reach dc 30 in t3 and t4.

As a thought experiment I think I'll see the highest dc a pc could reasonably accomplish with specializing, resources and allies. And a tiny bit of luck. Tomorrow.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, I was presuming t3 in here, and a d12 for the bardic inspiration die. I'm not saying that level 1 characters can easily achieve it, I'm saying that as you in higher tier, a character who doesn't specialize can achieve high results consistently. The bonuses I included aren't necessary or even probable in a party. I could have included dark ones own luck for instance, but that wasn't my goal.

The goal is to show that at higher tiers, things like seducing the tarrasque should most certainly be higher. I should've quoted the person who said that, because it requires no extraordinary investment or luck to reach dc 30 in t3 and t4.

As a thought experiment I think I'll see the highest dc a pc could reasonably accomplish with specializing, resources and allies. And a tiny bit of luck. Tomorrow.

Hmm, given T4 is very very short, we should expect some impressive feats out of T3 skill use.

Without specializing (but with having a Bard and Cleric / Druid) implies no Proficiency but does imply picking the person with the best ability score for the task.
Help + 5 Ability + 1d12 Bardic Inspiration + Guidance is a reasonable expectation when a Bard is assisting someone.
output [highest 1 of 2d20]+1d12+1d4+5
Average 27.82
Yeah that is high.

They factors here are Bardic Inspiration (6.5), Ability score (5), Help (advantage) (3.32), and Guidance (2.5) in that order.

The biggest takeaway is, Bards are specialized in boosting other's ability checks (+1d12 is roughly the 5 DC difference between grades of DC). Just like Rogues are specialized in Reliable ability checks.

Now is it level appropriate for a Bard to be able to elevate someone with raw talent to the heights of legendary feats? Maybe. Maybe Bards are an outlier. What does the math look like without Bard?
output [highest 1 of 2d20]+1d4+5
Average 21.32
Maximum 29

Another thing to consider: The 5E ability check mechanics are bad at representing both ceilings and floors. If you balance your DCs to exclude the unskilled, the skilled will have trouble being skilled. If you balance your DCs to simulate the skilled, then the unskilled achieve similar feats. 5E makes you choose, which is more important?