What Tier is this? (Kineticist After Fixes)

[mehs]

So I'm playing a blaster kineticist, specifically water starting out, but the second element is going to be earth because a lot of the grand scheme enemies take 2x damage from anything earth elemental. I managed to talk the GM into allowing a lot of fixes for the class (since blaster kineticist is a borderline tier 6 class even though it is how the class is meant to be played). So now im curious as to where the class would be with the fixes.


Full BAB
Burn recharges every short rest (1 hr)
5e Warlock-esque spellcasting, Spells known is every spell with appropriate elemental subtype
Extended and Extreme Range are feats that improve all uses of kinetic blast instead of counting as form infusions.
Able to use gather power on utility talents including Defense Talents.
The various talents are much less element dependent, for example I have the fan of (flames normally) infusion to use as a cheap 15 ft cone aoe with my water blast.
Infusion and Utility talent every level
Duration of Talents is upped to be 3+con (units) at base instead of 1 round
Some homebrew talents that let me function better as a healer, get past elemental immunities, and heavily damage things that are opposite element to me.

[Eldonauran]

Sounds like something that I'd pick to run over most anything else. It might not have the theoretical optimization ceiling of a full caster, but as far as I can see... I could do just about everything else just as well, or better, with this setup. With all of is perceived shortfalls patched over, it would take very little optimization on the other end to push this to a high Tier 3 (almost to the Tier 2 sorcerer level).

But, hey. That's my opinion.

[Kurald Galain]

Pretty much all the fixes you mention are strictly numerical bonuses - which are very much needed on a kinny, but numbers by themselves are not going to get you any higher than tier 4 (maybe 5 if your changes are more flash than substance). You appear not to have addressed the issue that many talents are simply weaker versions of lower-level spells.

...not that there's anything wrong with tier 4.

[Bucky]

5e Warlock-esque spellcasting, Spells known is every spell with appropriate elemental subtype
What does this entail? How fast is the casting progression?

[mehs]

1-9th spell level 1-17th caster level. I get access to the spells the earliest any caster could, which sometimes means going by bard or such instead of normal wizard/druid/cleric.

[Bucky]

My first impression is that it's either low tier 2 or tier 3 depending on element selection.

The extended duration on utility talents, combined with the ability to gather energy for them, means some abilities go from niche to spammable. For example, you have unlimited Kinetic Healer usages. Or, given a minute to prepare, you can open combat with six charging Spark of Life elementals. And the extra utility talents mean a kineticist gets all the good ones in their primary element. That's the floor. Then we add quick spell progression off a fairly sparse list, and a versatile sidearm that targets touch AC or reflex saves, and you're in tier 3 at least.

[Kurald Galain]

1-9th spell level 1-17th caster level. I get access to the spells the earliest any caster could, which sometimes means going by bard or such instead of normal wizard/druid/cleric.

Ok, that does make a difference. But do I understand correctly that you only get spells with the [water] tag? Because there aren't many good ones there...

[mehs]

About 20 ish in total, with it being questionable whether or not I get the summoning spells

[Thunder999]

Summoning spells would only work for water elementals, not exactly the best summons.

[Kurald Galain]

About 20 ish in total, with it being questionable whether or not I get the summoning spells

Yeah, that's really not going to make you tier 2 or 3. There's nothing in the list of water spells that I recognize as particularly strong or even all that useful.

...maybe you should switch elements? Water is clearly a trap for a regular kinny, it appears to still be a trap for your much-improved kinny.

[Bucky]

Summoning spells would only work for water elementals, not exactly the best summons.

The Summon Nature's Ally line gives access to elemental giants as well.

----
Quick rundown of elements:
Aether - unlimited Kinetic Healer use during short rests, good spell list with many useful [Force] effects.
Water - Worse version of Aether's utility, but with better blasts.
Air - Extended range blasting, true flight and scouting. Access to wide-area BFC. With cloud spells, can set up asymmetric vision ambushes. Eventually develops into a very mobile flying artillery platform that can solo outdoor encounters that don't have a specific counter.

[Hazrond]

In terms of max strength they won't match a wizard but in terms of effective strength they will most certainly be the most OP class in the game. You are trying to tell me a class that can effectively reset it's spell slots with a 1 hour rest is balanced? With full BaB too? Normal kineticist already hits like an angry train and this just turns them into an all-day fighter that basically can't be outlasted.

This class effectively has the 15 minute workday that makes a normal caster OP baked into it's chassis and that's busted AF.

[Kurald Galain]

Normal kineticist already hits like an angry train

Say what, now?

Normal kinny deals less damage than a fighter. This is mainly because it benefits less (or not at all) from most common party buffs; because damage-boosting magic items for the kinny largely don't exist; and because it most elements lack a reliable answer to DR and SR.

That's why substantial boosts, like the OP is suggesting, are necessary.

[Arutema]

Say what, now?

Normal kinny deals less damage than a fighter. This is mainly because it benefits less (or not at all) from most common party buffs; because damage-boosting magic items for the kinny largely don't exist; and because it most elements lack a reliable answer to DR and SR.

That's why substantial boosts, like the OP is suggesting, are necessary.

Just because a full-attacking archer can overkill things faster, does not mean the kineticist can't contribute meaningfully to published encounters if built half-decently.

[Eldonauran]

Just because a full-attacking archer can overkill things faster, does not mean the kineticist can't contribute meaningfully to published encounters if built half-decently.
It's not a matter of being built half-decently. They come out of the box nearly ready to contribute meaningfully and only need slight optimization to account for their blind spots. It is usually an inflated viewpoint of what it means to contribute and a skewed take on comparative power levels that leads to this issue. Every table has their own experience, of course, but I've never seen a kineticist under perform except under very specific circumstances (poor dice rolls not withstanding).

You want a Archer to start crying? Make them track their arrows and carry weight.

[mehs]

In previous experience, there was a campaign I played in as a water kineticist with no real changes other than gm allowed gather power on utility talents and almost everything was set up in a way that favored me, I optimized as much as I know how to do, and my kineticist still ended up average to the rest of the party; the summoner in the party kept bum rushing dungeons and encounters as soon as he had 2 rounds to summon some hawks. Which was frustrating as he was a murder hobo that was for some reason a cop, whereas I was trying to keep everyone alive with nonlethal takedowns.

So yeah, a class that needs serious effort and circumstances aligning to be average is underpowered.

[Eldonauran]

So yeah, a class that needs serious effort and circumstances aligning to be average is underpowered.

This issue is more of a critique on the play style of the summoner than that of the kineticist power level. If your intention is to ramp up the power level of the kineticist in order to match blows with highly optimized characters, or finely honed play-styles, then I've got no real critique of the changes being made at your table. I just know that if I got my claws on a kineticist that gained those boosts, I could build something that might possibly make a dedicated archer fighter cry about me doing too much damage.

A word of caution, if i may... you are not playing in an AVERAGE group, experiencing the AVERAGE challenge of the game, and are not operating within the AVERAGE expectations of the CR system. Pull your expectations back and bit and reassess your approach to the matter. I would hate for your experience with this game to be tainted by higher than necessary expectations of gameplay.

[mehs]

It is more that I want to be able to not care about optimizing and still be on an average power level compared to everyone else.

[Kurald Galain]

you are not playing in an AVERAGE group, experiencing the AVERAGE challenge of the game, and are not operating within the AVERAGE expectations of the CR system.
Well, we ARE talking about one of the weakest and least versatile classes in the game; so that's not on the level of an AVERAGE group. While nobody is saying the kinny cannot contribute at all, it can certainly use some help to get up to an AVERAGE class.

[Eldonauran]

Well, we ARE talking about one of the weakest and least versatile classes in the game; so that's not on the level of an AVERAGE group. While nobody is saying the kinny cannot contribute at all, it can certainly use some help to get up to an AVERAGE class.
If that is your opinion of the kineticist class, I can only say that I disagree with your assessment (from an overall perspective). We might be starting from different perspectives on the game, however, so I'll just limit myself to that statement alone.


It is more that I want to be able to not care about optimizing and still be on an average power level compared to everyone else.
You want to not care about optimizing and be as powerful as the people who do optimize? Hmm.... :smallconfused:

[Kurald Galain]

If that is your opinion of the kineticist class, I can only say that I disagree with your assessment (from an overall perspective).
We did the math last year. While the kinny looks fine by itself, the numbers become different once you take into account buff spells, magic items, and resistant monsters (or worse, all three). This is because it benefits less (or not at all) from most common party buffs; because damage-boosting magic items for the kinny largely don't exist; and because it most elements lack a reliable answer to DR and SR. To be fair, not every campaign uses those; e.g. some GMs will intentionally avoid fire-resistant monsters if there's a fire blaster in the party.



Fighter baseline: 29.8
Fighter with +2 dex belt: 33.2
Fighter a Flaming bow (affordable at level 6): 36.6
Fighter with Prayer: 35.4
Fighter with Inspire Courage: 41.4
Fighter with Haste: 42.6 (and this stacks with e.g. Inspire to 62.6, or with the Flaming bow, etc)
Fighter against DR: the same, as silver or cold iron arrows are very cheap.
Kinny baseline: 29.2
Kinny with +2 con or dex belt, or even both: 29.2
Kinny with prayer and/or inspire courage and/or haste: 29.2
Kinny against elemental resistance (11% of enemies at that level): 19.5
Kinny against SR (22% of enemies at that level): 13.1
Kinny against fire immunity (16% of enemies at that level): 0.0


Kinetic blade is somewhat better, but kinny is not advertised as a melee bruiser, and I haven't met any player who wants to play it that way.

[Eldonauran]

We did the math last year. While the kinny looks fine by itself, the numbers become different once you take into account buff spells, magic items, and resistant monsters (or worse, all three). This is because it benefits less (or not at all) from most common party buffs; because damage-boosting magic items for the kinny largely don't exist; and because it most elements lack a reliable answer to DR and SR. To be fair, not every campaign uses those; e.g. some GMs will intentionally avoid fire-resistant monsters if there's a fire blaster in the party.

I have no want, or need, to argue about the numbers you've provided. However I am curious as to the source of them, as I don't see any particular level spread given (is it level 6 because of the flaming enchantment?), or assumptions about the inherent availability of magic items or settings provided with your quote. I don't even know the assumptions that went into deciding what kind of kineticist we are looking at (aside from maybe fire?).

All of this aside, I know of a few ways that the kineticist can match the fighter in their ability to benefit from those bonuses without being a melee combatant. If you want to just be a close ranged 'blaster' that just relies on their spell-like abilities, that's fine. You aren't going to shine until you find ways to hit multiple opponents in a single turn. If you want to be powerful, you need to WORK at it. If you are curious, I could provide some data on how that is possible, but like i said, I'm not here to argue or debate the numbers.

As a side note, let's talk about my expectation of the AVERAGE experience that runs parallel with the CR system expectation. If you have a character that devotes more than three quarters of their feats* (fighters and classes that get combat bonus feats aide) to increasing your effectiveness in combat, you are starting to operate outside of (my opinion of) the expectations of the CR system. That might rankle a few people because it hits home for their playstyle, but I am not shooting their playstyle down. I am just saying that they are playing another kind of game that I am. You are not doing it bad/wrong, you are having fun. It only becomes an issue when those playstyles begin to bleed into the overall expectations of the game and influences other tables, co-opting the 'average' game and shifting it to one extreme or the other.

*EDIT: Please note that I am not here to argue about caster/martial disparity. It has nothing to do with the kinny vs fighter example you offered. This is an example directed at one particular topic.