Breaking down the wizard into chunks

[Kane0]

So a little side project i'm tinkering on at the moment is reworking the wizard class. What i'm trying to do is twofold: firstly reduce the base spell list and move spells into the subclasses, like how warlocks get extra spells added to their list by patron but on a larger scale; and secondly break the subclasses away from single school specialization into pairings like Beguiler (enchantments/illusions), warmage (abjuration/evocation), binder (conjuration/divination) and shaper (necromancy/transmutation).

So yeah looking for discussion, ideas, dire warnings, etc.

Edit: For example

Level 1: Spellcasting
Level 2: Arcane recovery, ribbon
Level 3: Subclass I
Level 4: ASI
Level 5: -
Level 6: Subclass II
Level 7: -
Level 8: ASI
Level 9: -
Level 10: Subclass III
Level 11: -
Level 12: ASI
Level 13: -
Level 14: Subclass IV
Level 15: -
Level 16: ASI
Level 17: -
Level 18: Subclass V
Level 19: ASI
Level 20: Capstone

Spellcasting would be as is, the only difference is the default spell list is much smaller and when you choose your subclass it expands. More than 2 per spell level than you'd see in clerics, paladins, warlocks etc.

Subclass features are more frequent and substantial, cementing the theme alongside the spells

Capstone would be spell mastery and or signature spells as usual.

Edit 2: Sample 1st level spell lists

Common: Alarm, Burning Hands, Charm Person, Color Spray, Detect Magic, Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Grease, Ice Knife, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Sickness, Shield, Silent Image, Sleep, Snare, Tenser's Floating Disk, Thunderwave, Witch Bolt
Beguiler: Cause Fear, Disguise Self, Illusory Script, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Binder: Comprehend Languages, Find Familiar, Protection from Evil and Good, Unseen Servant
Shaper: Expeditious Retreat, False Life, Jump, Longstrider
Warmage: Absorb Elements, Catapult, Chromatic Orb, Earth Tremor

So you have 24 spells to choose from instead of 36, and this is just from rearranging the existing wizard list. Additional subclasses could draw from other lists and new spells could either be added into the common or subclass pools.

[Zhorn]

Would this be a subclass for each potential school pairing (so 15 possible subclasses)
or just very specific pairs (for example: evocation and necromancy never appear together)?

For the spell list idea:
Very limited slots on prepared spells for the day, but spells from your chosen school(s) don't count against your spells prepared for the day?


School pairs: Would their be a major/minor system, or are both schools in each pairing treated equally?

[firelistener]

Sounds pretty limiting unless you beef up their subclass features. Wizards don't get much there normally, and are only good because they have a wealth of options compared to other classes. They use the same resource for actions, bonus actions, and reactions. This makes spell slots like a far better version of the monk's ki points. If you limit what spell slots can do too much for wizards, the remaining pieces of the wizard are pretty weak.

The illusion/enchantment class sounds like it might need special focus to be viable in combat, like maybe special access to the bard spells Vicious Mockery and Dissonant Whispers.

[thereaper]

This is kind of something that needs to happen.

Most Wizards in fiction tend to fall into 3 categories:

Combat Wizard: the stereotypical glass cannon, with lots of ways to blow people up

Theme Wizard: Has a theme, and is extremely versatile within that theme, but can't do much outside of it (Necromancers, Elemental Wizards, Healers, etc)

Plot Wizard: Specializes in magic that moves the plot forward, with nebulously defined abilities that are never useful in combat (or else, what use is the hero? Or, if they are the hero, where's the challenge?)

D&D spellcasters tend to be the Combat Wizard and the Plot Wizard at the same time, and it's long been a major problem

[Ignimortis]

So a little side project i'm tinkering on at the moment is reworking the wizard class. What i'm trying to do is twofold: firstly reduce the base spell list and move spells into the subclasses, like how warlocks get extra spells added to their list by patron but on a larger scale; and secondly break the subclasses away from single school specialization into pairings like Beguiler (enchantments/illusions), warmage (abjuration/evocation), binder (conjuration/divination) and shaper (necromancy/transmutation).

So yeah looking for discussion, ideas, dire warnings, etc.

{Scrubbed} That's how mages should have been from the start. However, I would move binder to Conjuration/Necromancy, and shaper to Divination/Transmutation thematically. Are there reasons why you chose that divide for them?

[Kane0]

For the spell list idea:
Very limited slots on prepared spells for the day, but spells from your chosen school(s) don't count against your spells prepared for the day?

School pairs: Would their be a major/minor system, or are both schools in each pairing treated equally?
Would this be a subclass for each potential school pairing (so 15 possible subclasses)
or just very specific pairs (for example: evocation and necromancy never appear together)?

The idea being wizard casting as it is now, but the basic list is significantly cut down and moved to subclasses. This has two benefits of both pulling back the primary feature of the wizard (it's casting) to make room for actual features and helps when introducing new spells.

Roughly equal but mostly following the flavor. I just started with 4 to keep scope under control but other combinations could totally be done depending on more mage themes that can be thought up (blood, fate, time, etc)



Sounds pretty limiting unless you beef up their subclass features. Wizards don't get much there normally, and are only good because they have a wealth of options compared to other classes. They use the same resource for actions, bonus actions, and reactions. This makes spell slots like a far better version of the monk's ki points. If you limit what spell slots can do too much for wizards, the remaining pieces of the wizard are pretty weak.

The illusion/enchantment class sounds like it might need special focus to be viable in combat, like maybe special access to the bard spells Vicious Mockery and Dissonant Whispers.

Yeah, the idea is that more substantial features are introduced to replace the significant drop in spell selection.



This is kind of something that needs to happen.

Most Wizards in fiction tend to fall into 3 categories:

Combat Wizard: the stereotypical glass cannon, with lots of ways to blow people up

Theme Wizard: Has a theme, and is extremely versatile within that theme, but can't do much outside of it (Necromancers, Elemental Wizards, Healers, etc)

Plot Wizard: Specializes in magic that moves the plot forward, with nebulously defined abilities that are never useful in combat (or else, what use is the hero? Or, if they are the hero, where's the challenge?)

D&D spellcasters tend to be the Combat Wizard and the Plot Wizard at the same time, and it's long been a major problem

Hopefully gunning for theme wizards with juuust enough outside of their specific theme to avoid being one trick ponies.



You're doing God's work. That's how mages should have been from the start. However, I would move binder to Conjuration/Necromancy, and shaper to Divination/Transmutation thematically. Are there reasons why you chose that divide for them?


Not in particular, just process of elimination from the starting point (I started with warmage and beguiler).

[Democratus]

What does 'ribbon' mean at Level 2?

[OldTrees1]

What does 'ribbon' mean at Level 2?

Ribbon probably means insert some feature that is interesting, hopefully valued, but does not impact power.

The kind of thing where a class has room for a feature at that level but has already spent all its build points at that level, so you have to think of a feature that would cost 0 build points.

Evoker Savant is an example of a Ribbon.


However I am now noticing the first Subclass feature is at Level 3 (changed from level 2). The same time they get 2nd level spells. Might be a mistake, but that is a nitpick.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why not just make spell selection limited by school, similar to the Eldritch Knight? You pick your theme/schools at 1st level but don't get any features from it until 3rd. You can pick one 1st level spell that isn't in your chosen schools at 1st level, but all your starting cantrips must be from those schools. As you level up the spells you automatically learn must be from your chosen schools at odd-numbered class levels, and no more than one from outside those schools at even-numbered class levels. The additional cantrips learned at 4th and 10th can be from outside those schools. Your prepared spells can only include one spell per spell level of a school outside those you've chosen.

[fbelanger]

Don’t get lure by wizard subclass.
The efficiency of wizard came from the ability to use all school of magic freely. There is too much immunity and resistance in monster to use a thematic strategy.

[KorvinStarmast]

Breaking down the wizard into chunks
This is what Fire Giants do when making Three Alarm Wizard Chili. :smallsmile:

The game already has constrained arcane casters: Bard and Sorcerer.

I perceive that you are seeking the feel of a previous edition here; but what else is going on?
Do you see a balance problem that needs solving?

The whole "wizard is a generalist" is part of the appeal of the class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This is what Fire Giants do when making Three Alarm Wizard Chili. :smallsmile:

I was thinking something similar (an axe would work best) when I first read the title.


The game already has constrained arcane casters: Bard and Sorcerer.

I perceive that you are seeking the feel of a previous edition here; but what else is going on?
Do you see a balance problem that needs solving?

The whole "wizard is a generalist" is part of the appeal of the class.

Maybe include a Generalist subclass, that will give better spell selection but weaker class features?

[Morty]

Enforcing thematic specialization on wizards is very much a good move; the "everything and the kitchen sink" model has never worked well. But I don't think the spell schools as they exist now are up to the job. They're written to be mixed and matched - also, honestly, they're just not very good. Pairing them up into subclasses might be better, but also somewhat restrictive and arbitrary.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe bring back opposed schools like 2e had? Whichever one you pick, you can't learn spells of the opposed school. The opposed pairs are Abjuration and Transmutation, Conjuration and Divination, Enchantment and Evocation, and Illusion and Necromancy.

[Ignimortis]

Edit 2: Sample 1st level spell lists

Common: Alarm, Burning Hands, Charm Person, Color Spray, Detect Magic, Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Grease, Ice Knife, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Sickness, Shield, Silent Image, Sleep, Snare, Tenser's Floating Disk, Thunderwave, Witch Bolt
Beguiler: Cause Fear, Disguise Self, Illusory Script, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Binder: Comprehend Languages, Find Familiar, Protection from Evil and Good, Unseen Servant
Shaper: Expeditious Retreat, False Life, Jump, Longstrider
Warmage: Absorb Elements, Catapult, Chromatic Orb, Earth Tremor

So you have 24 spells to choose from instead of 36, and this is just from rearranging the existing wizard list. Additional subclasses could draw from other lists and new spells could either be added into the common or subclass pools.

Too much offense and utility on the common list. I would perhaps leave Detect Magic, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile in there, and shutter off everything else to subclasses by relevant schools.

However, this would assume that you'd do something similar to clerics/druids/bards, and that's much harder.

[KorvinStarmast]

... ; the "everything and the kitchen sink" model has never worked well.
Disagree. Worked fine in the Original and in the Basic (BX, BECMI). (And then the Illusionist showed up in AD&D and then ... did you see all of the stuff in Dragon Mag in the first ten years? Ideas all over the map) FWIW, specialization was a feature in Chivalry and Sorcery, and it worked in that game well enough.

But I don't think the spell schools as they exist now are up to the job. I'll buy that, in terms of what Kane0 seems to be looking for.

[Democratus]

If you are wanting to bring the schools of magic to the fore (which I'm in favor of) there are a couple of approaches:

- Limit access to items outside a wizard's school

- Unlimited access, but enhancements within a wizard's school

Both accomplish the job, but each implies a different kind of Wizardly magic: one where a person struggles to understand even a small part of the magical world, or one where one learns all about magic but has an affinity for one particular type.

I've had fun with both approaches. You should go for what fits your concept of arcane magic. :smallcool:

[Kane0]

Why not limit by spell selection by school or reintroduce banned schools?

Because that would probably be too far in the other direction and the schools aren't well balanced against one another. Thematic casters also don't always fit the spell school mould, even in pairs which I quickly noticed after spitballing that first post.



But the draw of the Wizard is its broad array of spells and we have limited casters already.

The common list will still have plenty there, just not quite as much. Splitting the access like this reduces the Wizard's ability to cherry pick spells, allowing for more diverse spell selection in mages and making it easier to introduce new spells to add to the lists.
But in return for taking away such a significant chunk of the Wizard's primary class feature (the spells), i'm looking to fill the void with an interesting class feature like the Bard's Inspiration or Sorcerer's Metamagic. Taking suggestions!

[Luccan]

I've recently toyed with building more dedicated wizards for the different schools, trying to take as many spells from one school as possible. I've noticed the schools are very uneven in number of spells so you need to watch for that. While I don't agree that wizards need to be limited in what spells they can pick from the wizard list, if your restrictions are based on school it might be too much restriction, especially at low levels where some schools get one or two spells every couple levels. If your warmage is limited to Abjuration and Evocation, there's at least a chance of a fair chance of two warmages looking different. Shapers significantly less so. Cantrips might be a total wash