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TrashPastor110
2020-06-12, 01:40 AM
Alright, so the players (level 14, well known throughout the kingdom) have been sent to a nearby city where the king has suddenly begun sympathizing with the BBEG in order to dissuade them or at least discern their intentions in order to prevent a civil war. When they arrive they find that very few citizens are willing to speak of the city's political agenda, as those who do tend to disappear, and some rumors even say people are being replaced by doppelgangers. The guards advise the party that the king does not wish to speak with anyone, especially not outsiders, though they can speak with his advisor who sheds little light on the subject.
So what's really going on here? Well, the king is practically senile and just agrees with whatever his advisor suggests. Though his advisor was replaced by an expert spy working for the BBEG. The thing is, I have managed to make the advisor completely untouchable, legally that is. So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?
The only idea I currently have is perhaps they meet the king's son who suspects the advisor and offers a plot to assassinate the king, making it look like an accident or natural cause so that the son can then take the throne. Another idea I have is perhaps some sort of conspiracy against the conspiracy creator where the players can egg on several trusted guardsmen so some similar group close enough to the king/advisor to assassinate him all at once, like Caesar's assassination.

Mastikator
2020-06-12, 02:19 AM
If you take away legal options then most likely they're just gonna go with the "it's not illegal if there are no witnesses" route. (some groups may choose that after considering exactly zero legal options :smallbiggrin:)

If you're the DM then you're the one making up the laws here, so you could have them randomly stumble upon some legal code or clause that allows them an audience with the king, or with the noble, or allows them to challenge him on some basis, or evidence that allows them to disgrace/incriminate the spy.
It could be something arbitrary and convenient but with a proper backstory seems justified, especially if you foreshadow the backstory. First you let on the story of The Guy Who Spied On The Queen 80 years ago, then you let on that a law was passed in response to that, then they see the law for themselves and find out how it could totally devastate the spy. And then you let slip some evidence against the spy. Do it right and they won't notice how contrived it all is until much later.

Pauly
2020-06-12, 04:13 AM
One way is to emulate the way Sejanus was brought down (well at least according to “I, Claudius” the real events are a bit murky).

The spy is planning on marrying into the Royal family and has taken a princess as a lover. The Princess commits their plans to murder and usurp the king in a love letter. Possibly he may even be planning to betray the BBEG to set up his own kingdom.

The party becomes aware of the letter. Shenanigans ensue.
- how do they acquire the letter?
- how do they get it to the king?
- how do they persuade the king that the letter is genuine?
- will the king be lucid enough to act?
- how can they bring about the downfall of the spy without the spy launching a pre-emptive coup?

Alcore
2020-06-12, 04:52 AM
nothing

You have written yourself into a corner (which prompted this thread) so the only way out is to keep writing. Since you care so much about legality (which means its a primary theme of this part) you likely have a few laws already written. Now you just need more that can't be proven without evidence and which invalidates the "legally untouchable" clause. Then you have to hope they (the players) care about laws as much as you do. (Without a paladin i fully expect them to try and deal with the problem unlawfully; plan for that too)

jayem
2020-06-12, 08:02 AM
One way is to emulate the way Sejanus was brought down (well at least according to “I, Claudius” the real events are a bit murky).

The spy is planning on marrying into the Royal family and has taken a princess as a lover. The Princess commits their plans to murder and usurp the king in a love letter. Possibly he may even be planning to betray the BBEG to set up his own kingdom.

The party becomes aware of the letter. Shenanigans ensue.
- how do they acquire the letter?
- how do they get it to the king?
- how do they persuade the king that the letter is genuine?
- will the king be lucid enough to act?
- how can they bring about the downfall of the spy without the spy launching a pre-emptive coup?

The typical way is for them to be bought down from above. The Sejanus example being a good one of that.
Another would be similar forms of entrapment, if you know them the biblical Daniel&Esther might other examples to follow (broadly "Sign this before thinking it through"). So in this case get some friendly nobles to petition the king to "Demand that these foreigners pay him proper tribute"
Finally British (and other history) has quite a few examples, James&Buckingham, Anne&Miss Churchill.
The 3 musketeers might be another one for politicing and maneuvering people out of favour.


It might be worth sketching in some details, then seeing what the players suggest (and then don't work creating obstacles against it).

SirGraystone
2020-06-12, 08:09 AM
As a player I wouldn't trust the King's son, the first thing he's likely to do once on the throne is having the group put in jail for the murder of the king. And there's no way to "legally" kill a king.

Kardwill
2020-06-12, 10:00 AM
Maybe some obscure, half forgotten law can be used to shake the statu-quo. Like a noble council that hasn't been called for generations, but still has technically the right to demand an audience (or even force the king to surrender his title to his heir, dating back from the time kings were pawns of the aristocracy). The challenge would then be for the adventurers to find noblemen gutsy or disgrunted enough to break tradition and call the council.

InvisibleBison
2020-06-12, 11:17 AM
If the BBEG is known to be an enemy of the kingdom, and the players can find some proof that the advisor is working for the BBEG, they might be able to get him charged with treason. Whatever sort of legal protection he's got, I can't image it's good enough to shrug off the revelation that he's actively working with the king's enemy.

tyckspoon
2020-06-12, 11:36 AM
So what's really going on here? Well, the king is practically senile and just agrees with whatever his advisor suggests. Though his advisor was replaced by an expert spy working for the BBEG. The thing is, I have managed to make the advisor completely untouchable, legally that is. So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?

So, if you as the DM have made him 'legally untouchable', you as the DM need to figure out what avenues still remain. I recommend letting the players brainstorm for a bit and just rolling with the first two or three ideas they come up with that both sound kind of plausible and that they seem excited to pursue. Maybe there's some super obscure law along the nature of those 'Silly laws still on the books' compilations, and your party can arrange for the advisor to be caught doing some apparently innocuous action that is technically illegal (or maybe it's a matter of custom rather than law, and the advisor can be brought into disgrace by having him disrespect the king through failing to correctly perform some arcane aspect of a ritual.) Maybe they can collect evidence of the advisor's spying and provide it to somebody else high in the court - it would be highly unusual for a leader to only have one advisor, and if this spy is using his influence to try to cut out the King's other councilors (generals, religious leaders, the court wizard, etc) then they probably have some grievances to be settled that the players can use as an in. Maybe they can impersonate the spy and feed the King their own directed actions.

MagneticKitty
2020-06-12, 12:18 PM
Spy on the spy and catch him being a spy.
Or the party will secretly assassinate him. That's what I would guess would happen.
Or have an underground rebellion.

Assassination plots can be fun, we had one where the father of a party member was a corrupt king. The group found a rebel group in the sewers, and joined that. Later we learned a distraction was planned, blowing up the market square and murdering The king in the commotion. We had to deal with The rebel group and then make our own assassination plot instead. The group infiltrated the castle during a festival and each had different roles. Most of the party was to sneak in through the sewer. Our bard would chat up the guards, cause a scene, distract and find a reason to cause the host (the king) to leave the main room. He spilled wine on him so he would go to his room. my character the ranger/rogue was meant to assassinate him in his chambers after hiding in the throne room. Our resident wizard got captured for mouthing off to The king (his father) and got bound with a sophisticated handcuffs to prevent casting.
The sewer group got discovered by guards and had to retreat into the sewer, but found another way in, a backdoor for the king to teleport in and out without attracting attention. But we didn't know how to work it and were randomly teleported. So instead of a group attack we had my rogue and the captured prince wizard fighting a very hard encounter we barely won. But it one of the most memorable sessions and a ton of fun. The rebel group was framed for the assassination.
Also the prince pc became king and we had a 2 year time skip where the country was stabilized under his rule so that was interesting. It was the capitol of a country so the party became the head of an entire region of the map.

Aneurin
2020-06-12, 12:23 PM
So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?

The only idea I currently have is perhaps they meet the king's son who suspects the advisor and offers a plot to assassinate the king, making it look like an accident or natural cause so that the son can then take the throne. Another idea I have is perhaps some sort of conspiracy against the conspiracy creator where the players can egg on several trusted guardsmen so some similar group close enough to the king/advisor to assassinate him all at once, like Caesar's assassination.

I'm not quite sure how assassination is considered a legal solution here? Perhaps you mean solutions in which the player characters do not break laws themselves, which is more in line with your examples?

With that said... legal solutions depend on the laws available. If dueling is legal, then they could provoke a duel in an effort to - legally - kill the advisor, and a duel does not have to be one on one if local custom says it isn't. Assassination could even be legal, if cause can be proven - it's probably a bit wobbly, since you'd have to justify the killing after the fact really - something like vendetta could be legal, for instance.

There's also all kinds of twisty legal loopholes for non-violent take downs, particularly if bloodlines are important - maybe the advisor can't legally hold his position because he isn't a third generation citizen (required to hold position at court) because his grandfather was illegitimate, and has been concealing the fact. There's also the Count of Monte Cristo solution, which is to throw absurd amounts of wealth around, destroy his friends and supporters, and systematically buy up his debts and ruin his business interests until the advisor has nothing left.

The PCs could also sponsor a rival; the adviser may be untouchable now, but if the PCs can make someone more powerful and influential... that doesn't have to last forever.

jjordan
2020-06-12, 03:00 PM
Why are you trying to solve problems for the players? You gave them a situation, let them come up with a solution. With the parameters you've laid out, and dependent upon party resources, solutions I would kick around with my party include:
-When in doubt, tell the truth. Expose the advisor to the son and the king.
-Frameup. Frame the advisor for something. Manufacture some evidence, start a rumor campaign, plant some incriminating evidence, etc... Variations on this include framing the advisor with different groups. Convince a power bloc he's going to disenfranchise them and let them do the dirty work. Convince a crime syndicate it's in their best interests to kill the advisor. Frame the advisor with the BBEG so he loses confidence in the man and has him killed.
-Heal the king. If the king's mind works better for a couple of weeks he might realize he's being played.
-Appeal to the populace. Start an underground campaign styling itself the loyal opposition and pleading for the King (and his administration) to recognize the disloyalty of the advisor.
-Attack the advisor's income. Burn his estates, steal his money, destroy his businesses, and etc...
-Attack the advisor's communications with the BBEG and give him new instructions.
-Kill the advisor.
-Blackmail the advisor. Blackmail the advisors servants/confederates.

Zarrgon
2020-06-12, 03:19 PM
The thing is, I have managed to make the advisor completely untouchable, legally that is. So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?

Ok, lots of classic DM mistakes here, so.....

That the advisor ALTERED REALITY to make themselves "untouchable" legally is beyond silly. And it's a classic DM mistake: making the bad guy an uber god to be "cool". So, first off: never ever do this! See what you want to do is make anything only "sort of" whatever, not "super whatever game over".

So you want the advisor to be "mostly" untouchable, at least too "common" laws BUT that still leaves like 100 laws that still apply and CAN touch them. See the idea is to make it hard, NOT make it Impossible.

Next, you want to make the laws. IF you are going to be running some sort of "Law and Order Game" you really need to make up a big bulk of laws. This is another mistake: trying to run a game with something complex like Laws, but making all the laws up first. Now, if that sounds like "too much work" or something you "don't want to do......then a "law RP plot is NOT really for YOU". So don't do it.

Finally, you might have noticed that your "solution" is NOT a legal one. Yet another mistake: you make a problem with no answer, then wonder what the answer can be, AND THEN you think of a non-answer to solve the problem. The answer to the problem of "how to take down a dude legally" IS NOT to break the law and commit murder (THAT is the way to ILLEGALLY take down a dude).

sktarq
2020-06-12, 03:27 PM
Get a latter of marque to assassinate or whatever the target from an outside group with the legal power to do so

Get the legal sources of law to declare the target outlaw and thus the laws of protection of the society no long apply to him.

Is charm legal? If so charm him and get him to spill all his most legally embarrassing secrets somewhere that has repercussions.

dancrilis
2020-06-12, 03:34 PM
So what's really going on here? Well, the king is practically senile and just agrees with whatever his advisor suggests. Though his advisor was replaced by an expert spy working for the BBEG. The thing is, I have managed to make the advisor completely untouchable, legally that is. So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?

The spy who replaced the advisor is legally untouchable?
Ok, that would mean that replacing advisors with spys is legally sound - so all the players have to do is replace (in the same manner) the advisor (spy) with a different advisor (spy) - working for them, or perhaps even one of them.

Zakhara
2020-06-12, 05:18 PM
If the advisor is corrupt, why should the players feel beholden to his machinations? That said, if they must play this 'by the book'....

Manipulate the king into believing the advisor is exceeding expectations in his role, causing said advisor to get "kicked upstairs" into a role where he's less skilled and less able to micromanage.

Or, manipulate the advisor himself (whether through messengers, or more dubiously-legal means) into justifying his corrupt actions in a seemingly-private environment (the old UHF or Batman Returns trick).

Alternatively, take the Lethal Weapon 2 route and circumvent their immunity by calling in a favour from a third column.

Segev
2020-06-12, 05:25 PM
What makes him "legally untouchable?"

The answer to how to get around that is not independent of the form this untouchability takes.

Nifft
2020-06-12, 08:00 PM
Alright, so the players (level 14
(...)The thing is, I have managed to make the advisor completely untouchable, legally that is. So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?

Why would a party of level 14 PCs care about some silly little kingdom's laws?

They're more than halfway to spanking gods.

Kelb_Panthera
2020-06-12, 09:14 PM
If I presume "untouchable" is a defacto statement rather than a factual one then he's got the king's ear. The king won't see nobility except as he must so you can't go to the king and most other nobles would just be seen as politicking so you need to make a lateral move.

A senile king -must- have an heir-apparent. Going to him with proof of the advisor's conflicted loyalties may be all it takes, albeit a potentially volatile route. Whether he thinks the party "knows too much" for some reason or him pushing for succession causes massive fallout amongst the nobility, things could get very hot, very fast.

Alternatively or supplementally, approach the lead cleric of the King's faith and see if you can angle a spiritual advisor talking to the king about abdication. Anything short of full-on dimentia should leave even a senile king with enough of his mind to see that he's getting past the point he should consider stepping down if he's never holding audience and one advisor is conducting most affairs of state in his stead.

Complete curveball option; a people's revolution to establish a republic. You can't break the law if there isn't any for a while.

moonfly7
2020-06-12, 09:41 PM
Alright, so the players (level 14, well known throughout the kingdom) have been sent to a nearby city where the king has suddenly begun sympathizing with the BBEG in order to dissuade them or at least discern their intentions in order to prevent a civil war. When they arrive they find that very few citizens are willing to speak of the city's political agenda, as those who do tend to disappear, and some rumors even say people are being replaced by doppelgangers. The guards advise the party that the king does not wish to speak with anyone, especially not outsiders, though they can speak with his advisor who sheds little light on the subject.
So what's really going on here? Well, the king is practically senile and just agrees with whatever his advisor suggests. Though his advisor was replaced by an expert spy working for the BBEG. The thing is, I have managed to make the advisor completely untouchable, legally that is. So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?
The only idea I currently have is perhaps they meet the king's son who suspects the advisor and offers a plot to assassinate the king, making it look like an accident or natural cause so that the son can then take the throne. Another idea I have is perhaps some sort of conspiracy against the conspiracy creator where the players can egg on several trusted guardsmen so some similar group close enough to the king/advisor to assassinate him all at once, like Caesar's assassination.

If you we're my DM and threw this at me, or any party I've ever played with, I probably wouldn't even notice that he was legally protected from every angle. Not because I murder hobo everything, but because realistically it wouldn't matter. He's got control of the king, massive amounts of power from his BBEG backing, and presumably vast amounts of gold. Even if I thought about finding a loophole it would likely he shot down by flat up bribery or the king changing the law. It would be stupidly hard to find a legal loophole that worked and made sense in this situation.
If it were me and any party I'd ever met, ypur looking at a few options, none of them legal:
Impersonate the advisor with illusion magic, 1. tell the senile king you want him to execute you tomorrow, and not to listen to you when you say to stop because your just going to be kidding.
2. Kill advisor sneakily
3. Kill advisor openly, then book it
4. Black mail/bribe/mind control/other manipulation advisor to your side
5. Just kill everyone who could be in charge. Weakened leadership means that even if the BBEG gets another advisor in, there's no concrete ridership to control. City in disarray and looting means 1 less problem.
No matter what they choose though, I doubt "legal solution" is high on the list.

Pauly
2020-06-13, 09:26 PM
I don’t know why when a DM posts a problem some people feel the need to boast about their prowess as a player/DM without offering a sensible or useful solution to the problem.

For the problem as posted.
1) a legal solution is desired. Also I infer that the solution should be ethical i.e. no shapeshifting/falsifying documents type of trickery.
2) why the DM/players want to go this route is unimportant. It’s their game not ours.
3) I assume as the DM the OP is looking for a dramatic solution that involves adventure and intrigue. Not a loophole to exploit and hack.

The solution from within the kingdom has been covered already.

An alternate solution is for the party to cause the BBEG to lose faith in his spy. If the party knows of the BBEG and that the advisor is working for him then they can take action. They can feed the spy false information. They can hack his communications with the BBEG. They can send the BBEG information that his spy is going rogue and planning to set himself up as an independent power. They can work on the spy to defect to their side.
Edit to add. There are a number of cold war espionage novels/films with this sort of plot but “Smiley‘s People”, the conclusion of “The Tinker Tailor, Soldier Spy“ and The “ Honourable Schoolboy” trilogy is the best of them.

Alcore
2020-06-14, 05:30 AM
Uh.... guys. Isn't the BBEG the advisor himself? Some of you are talking as if we are going for the senile old king...

Sir_Elderberry
2020-06-14, 06:05 AM
If you're looking for historical analogies to help, might I suggest Thomas Cromwell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cromwell)? Cromwell was a commoner who rose to become an extremely powerful member of the court of Henry VIII. As chief minister, he helped orchestrate England's break with the Roman Catholic Church and the beheading of Anne Boleyn. A couple of wives later, he fell out of favor (extremely rapidly -- Cromwell was granted an Earldom in April, and arrested in June) and was beheaded after being accused of...well, quite a lot, some of which might even have been true. At this time, the legal mechanism used was a "bill of attainder" -- rather than a trial, Parliament had the authority to just pass a bill declaring you guilty. (Memories of which live on in the US Constitution, which explicitly forbids such things.) If you're interested in learning more about Cromwell I would check out Hilary Mantel's books, but you probably don't have time to tear through a 1500 page trilogy before your next session.

I think a lesson to pull from this is that you need to figure out what the counterbalancing institution is that can be used here. (I think another lesson is that even pretty absolutist monarchies do have legal systems and limitations.) The advisor rules the king, and the king rules the country. But they can't be the only people involved. Who are the other nobles? Who implements these decisions? The advisor doesn't go out and wage war, collect taxes, or coordinate grain storage, after all. In Cromwell's case it was the existence of other rivals and noblemen who were able to capitalize on some of his misfortune to turn the King's opinion, at least temporarily. Who else has power in your kingdom, either legal or otherwise?

One option I see in your post is the city guard. They're going around, silencing dissent, disappearing people, keeping people away from the king. Do any of them have qualms about it? Do they suspect that these are not the orders they are used to from the king, whose behavior has suddenly changed? What legal authority does the advisor have, and could they refuse to recognize it?

Pauly
2020-06-14, 04:22 PM
Uh.... guys. Isn't the BBEG the advisor himself? Some of you are talking as if we are going for the senile old king...

The advisor is a spy working for the BBEG.

Nightcanon
2020-06-15, 07:13 AM
Alright, so the players (level 14, well known throughout the kingdom) have been sent to a nearby city where the king has suddenly begun sympathizing with the BBEG in order to dissuade them or at least discern their intentions in order to prevent a civil war. When they arrive they find that very few citizens are willing to speak of the city's political agenda, as those who do tend to disappear, and some rumors even say people are being replaced by doppelgangers. The guards advise the party that the king does not wish to speak with anyone, especially not outsiders, though they can speak with his advisor who sheds little light on the subject.
So what's really going on here? Well, the king is practically senile and just agrees with whatever his advisor suggests. Though his advisor was replaced by an expert spy working for the BBEG. The thing is, I have managed to make the advisor completely untouchable, legally that is. So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?
The only idea I currently have is perhaps they meet the king's son who suspects the advisor and offers a plot to assassinate the king, making it look like an accident or natural cause so that the son can then take the throne. Another idea I have is perhaps some sort of conspiracy against the conspiracy creator where the players can egg on several trusted guardsmen so some similar group close enough to the king/advisor to assassinate him all at once, like Caesar's assassination.
Who is the noble you are wanting taken down? The advisor who isn't actually the advisor? If the real advisor is still alive, finding him and proving the subversion proves that the stand-in is guilty of something (kidnap, false imprisonment, impersonating a minister of the crown). If he isn't, it might be trickier to prove- though research into the nature of the replacement (magical/mundane) and finding a way to counter it. But prove he's an imposter, and he's fair game.
If you are looking for a 'way out', how about also putting it about (at least in rumour in court circles) that that the king's senility is a relatively recent event, hinting that it is being induced by his trusted advisor (see The Two Towers). PCs then prove this, advisor shown to be guilty of poisoning/ inducing illness in the king- likely to be a capital offence regardless of rank or privileges.

yellowrocket
2020-06-15, 11:30 AM
Other routes to consider

The church or churches. Does the new minister share the same faith as the king? Does he secretly worship a rival god to the one that has helped this kingdom prosper? Could the church have lost power with the new advisor taking a more prominent role?

I really like the idea of subverting him. Out him to the bbeg as either a traitor, or as making a power play of his own to rival the bbeg.


Or go spy on the BBEG see if you can subvert him.

Or better yet do things that subvert the BBEG but frame it as the advisor telling you to.

No brains
2020-06-15, 11:54 AM
You could tap the ancient idea of weregild. It's basically the 'pay fine' option out of TES. Some cultures had fines for the death of everyone from a slave up to the king.

If you were rollin' in fat enough stacks in viking times, you could ice the king and just drop a boulder of cash to escape legal culpability.

Though this defends against legal repercussions, vengeance still exists and others will probably think breaking the law would be worth taking down king-killers.

yellowrocket
2020-06-16, 09:37 PM
When are you playing next? I'd love ro see what they come up with.

Lvl 2 Expert
2020-06-17, 01:04 AM
The spy who replaced the advisor is legally untouchable?
Ok, that would mean that replacing advisors with spys is legally sound - so all the players have to do is replace (in the same manner) the advisor (spy) with a different advisor (spy) - working for them, or perhaps even one of them.

That would be my first idea as well.

And if the party can't find a good enough spy to pull this off, replace the advisor with a bad spy. They will get caught somewhere in the first few weeks and then they'll confess they've been controlling the king for years (because that was the PCs' condition for breaking him out of jail if he got caught). Instant distrust towards anything the king has done while controlled by the old spy.

Who looks for fully legal solutions in d&d anyway? Objection, badgering the witness who can't handle the truth.

Sapphire Guard
2020-06-17, 03:46 PM
So, the advisor is untouchable, but gets his power through the king.Seems like the easy way is to have some kind of 'in case of incapacity' law where the king temporarily surrenders his powers to his heir.

The son approaches the adventurers to help fulfill the conditions of the law (because there are also safeguards built in to prevent him from using said law to seize power). He needs to get votes from specific people that he is not allowed to approach, and the adventurers play messenger, while mr advisor puts barriers in their way.

How's that?

LibraryOgre
2020-06-17, 04:13 PM
The only idea I currently have is perhaps they meet the king's son who suspects the advisor and offers a plot to assassinate the king, making it look like an accident or natural cause so that the son can then take the throne.

This is close to Stephen King's "Eyes of the Dragon", though their plot is more convoluted.


So, Flagg, the BBEG, wants to throw the kingdom into turmoil by getting a bad king in there. He's stymied because the heir is a Good Kid, who will make Good Choices... including getting rid of Flagg. The king is old and doddering, and his second child is suitably malleable, so Flagg goes with this.

It is well known that Peter, the Good Kid, brings his father a glass of wine every night. Dutiful child, spent his own money for wine for his father. Flagg arranges to poison the king through that bottle of wine, then have the poison found in Peter's quarters. The king dies (horribly), and Peter is charged. Everyone assumes that Peter killed the king because he wanted to rule, and so the trial is a formality. Thomas becomes the evil king that Flagg wanted... for a few years, until Peter escapes and the whole plot goes to Hell in a handbasket for Flagg.

Storm_Of_Snow
2020-06-20, 02:06 PM
As others have said, some old, obscure law - maybe the PCs need to go on a quest to find the written example with it in.

An alternative is an existing law that's been misunderstood over time so that the population think it means one thing, but it's actually something different.

Or maybe the target gets careless and breaks a minor law that allows the PCs to start to bring them down, or one of their aides does so and it's up to the PCs to exploit that.

If they need to die, and duels are allowed, then that's a possibility, as even if they're not to the death, accidents happen. Or maybe there's an accident with no survivors when they're on their way to somewhere.

Propaganda? Getting bards to pass on negative stories and rumours about the BBEG so that they start having to take time to look after their own domain and can't maintain their control. And potentially coupling it with economics, say hiring the BBEGs advisors and guards, buying important raw materials to diminish their military strength (and potentially the civilians as well so they lose tax revenue and start to alienate the population).

HouseRules
2020-06-20, 11:08 PM
There's always the "right of conquest" by becoming a noble. Of course, this right is gone after WW2, but you're not in the modern world.

Jay R
2020-06-23, 12:51 PM
The only way to legally take down a noble is "successfully". If the PCs fail, the king's justice will find them guilty of treason and have them put to death for it.

If they succeed, especially if they wind up rescuing the king from the advisor and get the king's approval after the fact, they will be cheered and exalted as the heroes who have saved the realm.

Go watch Gandalf vs. Theoden and Wormtongue, or Aladdin vs. Jafar, or the musketeers vs. the first minister Richelieu, or Leia's resistance vs. the empire, or pretty much any Zorro movie.

aglondier
2020-06-27, 10:55 PM
Have a "noble" PC declare blood feud against the advisor, kill the advisor, then claim his holdings, titles and such by Right of Conquest.
Thats about as close to legal as you are going to get short of overthrowing the king and taking the throne by force of arms.

Acidicdevildog
2020-07-03, 11:11 PM
You could have your PCs gain favor with various members of different associations within the city. Have them play politics and gain support for the king's son, from the guards, mages, clergy and other nobles of the city, even the thieves guild. It opens up various side quests for them. Before and after they deal with the situation. In history the rightful ruler was usually the one who had the more powerful allies maybe one of the city nobles who is supporting the advisor has greater aspirations for his family and has a daughter around the princes age? Bonds in blood are stronger than anything written and he may be persuaded to switch allegiance, depends what the prince is willing to do to save his people? With enough political allies they can persuade the court to remove the advisor. And remember laws are written by the rulers in history not the people, once the deed is done the new ruler can declare it legal. And if they are successful they may even pull it off without bloodshed (not likely with the groups I've played with but possible) failing that magic is good, have the party boost the mental state of the king, have a potion of clear thoughts that removes his debilitating effects, full on gandalf the situation and have the king deal with the advisor when he has his senses

Vinyadan
2020-07-04, 05:48 AM
To be honest, it sounds like you solved the problem. If it had been the king who was turning evil, then in many countries he would have been above the law (with a few notable exceptions; there have been kings who were inferior to an assembly, or to religious figures).

But an advisor, a powerful courtesan, can be put to trial by the nobles. The legality of this is variable -- it can be an actual jury recognised by law or custom, or it can be a group of nobles who are not OK with the quantity of power the courtesan is wielding and simply cut him down. The killing of an adviser or favourite who was wielding disproportionate power because of his leverage on the king happened many times in history, and, after all, who's going to stop the nobles, if the king is out of commission? For them, it's all there -- a matter of envy, of money, of power, and of ensuring that the authority of their dynasty isn't curtailed by such figures.

GeoffWatson
2020-07-22, 07:46 AM
The advisor isn't actually a noble, he's a spy pretending to be a noble.
Find proof he's a spy, or what happened to the real noble.
Bring the proof to the captain of the guards, or the noble assembly, or whatever, and have him arrested.


PS: You mean courtier, not courtesan.

Mystral
2020-07-22, 07:58 AM
Alright, so the players (level 14, well known throughout the kingdom) have been sent to a nearby city where the king has suddenly begun sympathizing with the BBEG in order to dissuade them or at least discern their intentions in order to prevent a civil war. When they arrive they find that very few citizens are willing to speak of the city's political agenda, as those who do tend to disappear, and some rumors even say people are being replaced by doppelgangers. The guards advise the party that the king does not wish to speak with anyone, especially not outsiders, though they can speak with his advisor who sheds little light on the subject.
So what's really going on here? Well, the king is practically senile and just agrees with whatever his advisor suggests. Though his advisor was replaced by an expert spy working for the BBEG. The thing is, I have managed to make the advisor completely untouchable, legally that is. So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?
The only idea I currently have is perhaps they meet the king's son who suspects the advisor and offers a plot to assassinate the king, making it look like an accident or natural cause so that the son can then take the throne. Another idea I have is perhaps some sort of conspiracy against the conspiracy creator where the players can egg on several trusted guardsmen so some similar group close enough to the king/advisor to assassinate him all at once, like Caesar's assassination.

How about a duel. Make sure that you're either impersonating someone important or are someone important and then besmirch his honor in a way that he either falls out of all good social graces or has to face you in combat. Then make sure he doesn't survive that combat, even if it's a duel to first blood.

Lvl 2 Expert
2020-07-22, 08:43 AM
How about a duel. Make sure that you're either impersonating someone important or are someone important and then besmirch his honor in a way that he either falls out of all good social graces or has to face you in combat. Then make sure he doesn't survive that combat, even if it's a duel to first blood.

Oops, how clumsy off me, I first blooded him straight off a cliff. And through the wall on top of the cliff. And through the door of the house the wall was a part of. After he already first blooded me. Three times.

I guess +4 warhammers aren't really the best dueling weapons are they?

LibraryOgre
2020-07-22, 10:41 AM
Oops, how clumsy off me, I first blooded him straight off a cliff. And through the wall on top of the cliff. And through the door of the house the wall was a part of. After he already first blooded me. Three times.

I guess +4 warhammers aren't really the best dueling weapons are they?

Depends on your goals, I supposed. I mean, with the right accessories, you can yeet him straight out of the campaign...

VonKaiserstein
2020-07-22, 12:32 PM
Ultimately, a king rules because the guard and the people allow him to- ditto for the laws. So there are rumors of people who speak out against the king being abducted and replaced, you say? Suborn the beggars. They are the cheapest to get a hold of, and begin spreading additional rumors that it is the king himself stalking the night and slaying the populace- for he has become a vampire! Have them report back anyone who beats them up, especially in public.

Discretely murder said person, making sure to drain all of their blood and leave them at the market nearest the palace. Make sure to also publicly chastise a few of the lesser incidents for being cruel to the poor. You know, to avoid suspicion.

Simultaneously begin boasting in every tavern with ale of your prowess at finding tricky undead, even those that pose as important people. You know, show some trophies, demonstrate the proper way to stake a vampire on a thoroughly bewildered serving girl, etc. Play on your reputation and specifically make it sound as if you are experts at tracking down difficult to detect undead.

It may take a few weeks, and a few bodies, but eventually you'll be able to meet the king in person to verify he is not in fact a vampire. A few questions about who he trusts, and you turn on the advisor. Cast an illusion of some sort to make him look pale, then stake and incinerate the hapless vampire, neatly closing your plot.

Or, if it all goes nuts, being run out town by the guard and leaving behind a kingdom so riddled with internal strife and suspicion that it is incapable of action. If you use some foreign visitors as your vampire victims, it'll even ruin the kingdom's reputation abroad.

Dr paradox
2020-07-24, 03:01 AM
The advisor isn't actually a noble, he's a spy pretending to be a noble.
Find proof he's a spy, or what happened to the real noble.
Bring the proof to the captain of the guards, or the noble assembly, or whatever, and have him arrested.


That's probably the most straightforward approach. Rumor has it that a traveler was in town last week, a cousin to the advisor and member of the same noble family. He voiced a concern about how hard it was proving to even lay eyes on his cousin, given how close they once were.

Shortly thereafter, he was vanished. Track down the kidnappers (not proper guards, for fear of what they could learn) and rescue the noble from his interrogation. He can prove that his cousin was murdered and replaced.

That's the tricky thing about "advisor" as a position. He has his position strictly at the pleasure of the king, and since he wields little formal power, he's subject to fewer oversights from the noble class than a Duke or a Marshal. The only alternative to proving him a murderer, imposter, or criminal might be appealing to an alternate power structure: the Church would be a handy ally to have here, since the Bishops (or equivalent) are the only folk who can voice their displeasure while enjoying a modicum of protection.



PS: You mean courtier, not courtesan.

I knew something was bothering me about that word!

Thayborne
2020-07-24, 12:28 PM
..... how could the players legally do something about this? Are you the DM? This problem is what the Players are supposed solve. Time to try a lot of Divination Enchantment and Illusion spells. Do not forget Simulacrum.