A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

[lord_khaine]

Picking up from the popular web serial A Practical Guide to Evil (https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/)
Where the bad girl has gone pragmatic, and the good guy isnt always dumb.

And going by overwhelming general support, we now need to quickly gather excuses for why the spontaneous ignition of the last thread wasnt our fault.

Though speaking of distracting stuff, i also found this nifty collection of Non-Cat POV chapters.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PracticalGuideToEvil/comments/at7bd2/list_of_every_noncatherine_pov_sorted_by_chapter/

Going though the previous ones with Hanno has made me change my mind.
He does indeed play around with stories, though perhaps not -quite- on the meta level Cat does.

[druid91]

Of course it's not our fault. History shows that whenever something catches fire it's Cat's fault. Especially if she didn't set the fire.

[Lord Raziere]

Of course it's not our fault. History shows that whenever something catches fire it's Cat's fault. Especially if she didn't set the fire.

Meh, all you people talking 'bout Cat are don't remember the original, the real person to blame. the real person whose fault it for the fire is Harry Dresden, he did it first therefore she is just being a copy-Cat and trying to swipe at his infamy for herself.

[Aotrs Commander]

I blame 2020.

I don't think I need to elucidate further than that, do I?

[The Glyphstone]

Going though the previous ones with Hanno has made me change my mind.
He does indeed play around with stories, though perhaps not -quite- on the meta level Cat does.

Yeah - it's more of an instinctive thing for him - he doesn't think in terms of specific tropes and how to pull their strings like Cat. But he knows how stories go in a general sense, and how to shape the direction he wants it to go. I wasn't specific enough last time.

[Iruka]

Yeah - it's more of an instinctive thing for him - he doesn't think in terms of specific tropes and how to pull their strings like Cat. But he knows how stories go in a general sense, and how to shape the direction he wants it to go. I wasn't specific enough last time.

I think Cat has an innate understanding of stories and tropes (I do not remember, was it explained where this comes from?), while Hanno just has the stories seen play out so many times in his memories that he can tell where things are heading and where he can influence it.

[Thomas Cardew]

Part of it was natural talent, at least according to Black in the early book. My personal suspicion is she also stole/activated a trap when looking at the bard's memories in Arcadia and got a bit of the bard stuck in her. Like how Heirophant got part of the DK stuck in him as his two dads explained. The Tyrant seemed to suggest something along those lines as well.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think Cat has an innate understanding of stories and tropes (I do not remember, was it explained where this comes from?), while Hanno just has the stories seen play out so many times in his memories that he can tell where things are heading and where he can influence it.

The key difference, I suspect, is that to Hanno, knowledge of stories is a nice bonus to have, but for Cat it is a matter of life and death - so many stories (including her original fall from grace, the Three Battles) will lead inevitably to her death - she needs to be on top of it all the time, or risk being set up for execution (see the Grey Pilgrim's attempt). Hanno is not as pressured by stories - he can win without them, and I don't think there are any stories where he'd die at the end if he let them play out.

Grey Wolf

[The Glyphstone]

He might have died if the Mirror Knight's rebellion played out badly enough. But the Mirror Knight also could have died, or Sidonia, and he had to weave the story in a way that none of these happened. He weighs the lives of his allies equal to or greater than his own, since he's a hero, so he has just as many pitfalls to dodge despite the lower personal stakes to him.

[lord_khaine]

I would like to contest the notion that Hanno has less on the line.
Perhaps some of the stories he has been involved in has been less directly fatal to him.
Because he has not fought an opponent who used stories as directly as weapons against him (Taric or the Bard).

Instead he has had freaking Black try and get rid of him on a couple occations.
Anyway. The bit that directly made me change my oppinion on him, was the red vale fight.
There he directly send heroes away from a fight, so it was just him and the Witch against Black and Warlock.

His reasoning was it would prevent all the different stories of the attending heroes from competing with each other for importance.
That made me realise how aware he was of them on a meta level.

edit.

So. New chapter

Its of course not a surprise that the woman is the Bard.
The interesting bit is why its important.

[Mith]

So the start of the Doom that they all avoided by the grace of Karios. It's gonna be interesting.

I also love that we now have proof of a solid band of five with Heroes and Vilnians. It's good to see.

One thing I am curious is that Angels and Demons seem to be the diametric opposites of each other regarding the balance of classical Graces and Sins (and the corruption versus reset of Creation). I wonder if Devils are a holdover from the Garden as a balance to the immortal and cyclical Fae? It would explain why Below seems to have two resources to draw on compared to Above's one.

I'm just spit-balling here. It just seems odd that most of Creation is ultimately mirrored, and this is a case where that doesn't happen.

[Forum Explorer]

The key difference, I suspect, is that to Hanno, knowledge of stories is a nice bonus to have, but for Cat it is a matter of life and death - so many stories (including her original fall from grace, the Three Battles) will lead inevitably to her death - she needs to be on top of it all the time, or risk being set up for execution (see the Grey Pilgrim's attempt). Hanno is not as pressured by stories - he can win without them, and I don't think there are any stories where he'd die at the end if he let them play out.

Grey Wolf

No, Hanno is a hero. It's not that he can win without stories, it's that stories usually result in a win for the heroes. He's not pressured by stories, because they are a good thing for him. He can win without them sure, but he doesn't need to fear them like Cat does.

[Rydiro]

Hanno winning the easy bets here. The woe is woefully naive.

[Mith]

Also in Hanno's favour is the fact that the threat of a Barrow Lord may be fairly common.

I wonder if that has always been an issue for the tribes that founded Levante, or if it's something shaped up by Nemeshah or Bard. Why are barrows not considered holy ground to prevent necromancy?

[tyckspoon]

Also in Hanno's favour is the fact that the threat of a Barrow Lord may be fairly common.


Wonder if it that's an actual Name, or just a title? Seems like possibly a title, as one of the other undead claimed to be the new 'Barrow Lord' after the first one was put down, and having an actual Name spawn in a new bearer that close to the previous one that quickly doesn't seem to match up with what we know of Name mechanics, especially with a case where there's no real narrative link between the two beings.

[The Glyphstone]

I suspect it was both - the other undead were trying to claim the authority over their group the Named had possessed.

[Thomas Cardew]

No, Hanno is a hero. It's not that he can win without stories, it's that stories usually result in a win for the heroes. He's not pressured by stories, because they are a good thing for him. He can win without them sure, but he doesn't need to fear them like Cat does.

I REALLY feel this is overblown, sour grapes whining by Cat and Black who are incredibly untrustworthy narrators. Tarquin's point about the 'evil empire exists' is major deal here. There are just as many stories about the villains winning or at best being temporarily stymied. The heroes might have thwarted the latest scheme and escaped with their lives, but the villain still rules the empire. Because villains get immortality, they will eventually lose. Because if they didn't, every villain would be the Dead King. Or you get some Grimdark nonsense where even temporary victory is impossible.

Heroes get screwed over by stories all the time. Particularly, if you're in a tragedy or are the side-kick who gets sacrificed to show how serious the story is getting. Or how Bard gets the other bumbling hero killed in the first book instead of her. Or if you're the stepping stone the villain needs to beat to get to higher things. Or the Mentor figure who needs to get toasted for extra motivation. After all, Saint and Grey were exceptional because they were basically the ONLY OLD heroes.

On a side note, I feel the real difference between the two is how they think about stories. Cat is very meta and academic, looking at things from the outside as component parts. Hanno feels more like experiential knowledge: 'I've lived a thousand lives, I know how this story goes and I can change it' versus Cat's 'I know a thousand stories and I can swap between them at moment's notice'.

[Forum Explorer]

I REALLY feel this is overblown, sour grapes whining by Cat and Black who are incredibly untrustworthy narrators. Tarquin's point about the 'evil empire exists' is major deal here. There are just as many stories about the villains winning or at best being temporarily stymied. The heroes might have thwarted the latest scheme and escaped with their lives, but the villain still rules the empire. Because villains get immortality, they will eventually lose. Because if they didn't, every villain would be the Dead King. Or you get some Grimdark nonsense where even temporary victory is impossible.

Heroes get screwed over by stories all the time. Particularly, if you're in a tragedy or are the side-kick who gets sacrificed to show how serious the story is getting. Or how Bard gets the other bumbling hero killed in the first book instead of her. Or if you're the stepping stone the villain needs to beat to get to higher things. Or the Mentor figure who needs to get toasted for extra motivation. After all, Saint and Grey were exceptional because they were basically the ONLY OLD heroes.

On a side note, I feel the real difference between the two is how they think about stories. Cat is very meta and academic, looking at things from the outside as component parts. Hanno feels more like experiential knowledge: 'I've lived a thousand lives, I know how this story goes and I can change it' versus Cat's 'I know a thousand stories and I can swap between them at moment's notice'.

I disagree. I mean, Cat and Black are very focused on the endgame sort of thing, but Tarquin's point about the 'evil empire exists'? There is basically one power on the planet that is full on Evil, and it is a garbage dump that is so blighted that it has to sacrifice it's own people to farm, and even then they still have overpopulation problems. They only started winning when they stopped being so pants on head evil. And even then, it's been a very short term win in the scheme of things.

Another point of proof against is how Tariq operates. When he was interacting with Cat, he kept trying to lean into stories because he knew they would favor him. Frig, that is entirely the justification for what the Saint of Swords was doing. She knew her actions and intolerance would cause short term devastation but had faith that they'd pull through because she knows that heroes always win the endgame. She pretty much said as much.

[lord_khaine]

I REALLY feel this is overblown, sour grapes whining by Cat and Black who are incredibly untrustworthy narrators. Tarquin's point about the 'evil empire exists' is major deal here. There are just as many stories about the villains winning or at best being temporarily stymied. The heroes might have thwarted the latest scheme and escaped with their lives, but the villain still rules the empire. Because villains get immortality, they will eventually lose. Because if they didn't, every villain would be the Dead King. Or you get some Grimdark nonsense where even temporary victory is impossible.


Yeah, its 100 % sour grapes. It is a good point about villains immortality.
If you get enough shots at a villain, then sooner or later one will get though.


I disagree. I mean, Cat and Black are very focused on the endgame sort of thing, but Tarquin's point about the 'evil empire exists'? There is basically one power on the planet that is full on Evil, and it is a garbage dump that is so blighted that it has to sacrifice it's own people to farm, and even then they still have overpopulation problems. They only started winning when they stopped being so pants on head evil. And even then, it's been a very short term win in the scheme of things.

Nahh.. your not correct there. We also got a couple free cities that follow the gods below.
And i would not call getting to hold a nation for a generation short term.
Besides that they had had victories in the past. Remember every crusade send against them failed.


Another point of proof against is how Tariq operates. When he was interacting with Cat, he kept trying to lean into stories because he knew they would favor him. Frig, that is entirely the justification for what the Saint of Swords was doing. She knew her actions and intolerance would cause short term devastation but had faith that they'd pull through because she knows that heroes always win the endgame. She pretty much said as much.

No. Tariq kept trying to set up specific stories where he would win. If every story would favor him there would not be a need for someone like Tariq that could manipulate them.
As for the saint of swords. The key term here is faith. Of course one of the two oldest and strongest heroes in the continent would have faith in her ability to handle something.
That does not mean she would have been able to.

[Forum Explorer]

Nahh.. your not correct there. We also got a couple free cities that follow the gods below.
And i would not call getting to hold a nation for a generation short term.
Besides that they had had victories in the past. Remember every crusade send against them failed.



No. Tariq kept trying to set up specific stories where he would win. If every story would favor him there would not be a need for someone like Tariq that could manipulate them.
As for the saint of swords. The key term here is faith. Of course one of the two oldest and strongest heroes in the continent would have faith in her ability to handle something.
That does not mean she would have been able to.

We've got Stygia, and Bellaphron who are consistently evil. One is Evil, sure, but they are a pretty bit player who basically has no influence on the wider scale of things besides selling mercenaries. And Bellaphron is considered a joke, to the point where the Free Cities make a game of trying to get them to kill their own diplomats. Helike can be evil, but that depends on who is ruling at the time. They were Good before the Tyrant took over.

I would. Any empire that collapses after losing its current ruler is a good example of short term, particularly in the eyes of history.

You are incorrect about that. The first crusade against them actually succeeded and conquered Praes for quite some time. And I think the crusades usually succeed in toppling whatever Dread Emperor/Empress ruling at the time, but they can't actually hold onto Praes as the place is a Wasteland.


Not really. He set up whatever story fitted him which is pretty much any story. Cat didn't try and shift the story to something that favors her, she had to derail the story entirely.

She was flat out predicting her death, and that she wouldn't see the end of the crusade. The faith wasn't in herself, it was in the fact that good always wins in the end.

[lord_khaine]

And at the same time, we got what Callow? thats consistently good.
Proccer who care more about its own plots than anything else.
And Levant who seems largely occupied with raiding and honor duels.

And if thats the standard for short term we use. Then all of Above's gains are short term as well.
Mostly they just at some point put an end to things.

And i count 1 crusade failing for semantics. Point remain that they have fought off plenty of crusades.
Giving them plenty of defensive victories.

Yes of course she had to detail the story the Gray Pilgrim sets up.
He isnt going to pick one that could go either way.

As for saint. You missed the key point i was making about faith.

[Mith]

Thinking of the shape of this book, and I wonder if any of the founding lines were actually Heroes, or if Bard changed the narrative with Manifestation of Mercy.

Really my hunch is more based on the fact that Hanno seems to have records of _all_ Heroes memories before him, since he seemed to be able to probably verify that Yolonda the Stern may or may not be a Villain, and the fact that the Blood are fighting the idea that the Barrow Sword should be added to the rolls of the Blood.

If Bard changed the narrative of the Levante 5 vs. the Proceran Empire into a heroic band of 5 when it in fact was a mixed or entirely villainous party, that may be the clever side reveal that potentially shapes the perspective of the Truce and Terms. If such an arrangement gave rise to the Dominion of the Levante, then it surely could do a greater good with the rest of the continent.

It would also make 3rd attempt to do large scale cooperation of Good and Evil: with the Free Cities, the Dominion of the Levante (if my theory is correct) being the other two.

[lord_khaine]

Ah.. i think your trying to twist events to fit an idea now.
For a start, its very predictable that the blood would fight tooth and nail against the Barrow Swords request.
They are a nation that has worshipped their heroic founders for ages. He is a villain. Its a change that goes against dogma and tradition = people going no! change bad!

And those names has been heroic for god knows how many generations, of course they started out heroic.
The Bard can twist and nudge the narrative. Not make blatant GM-style changes like "your all heroes now".

[HolyDraconus]

New chapter up....

[Mith]

Ah.. i think your trying to twist events to fit an idea now.
For a start, its very predictable that the blood would fight tooth and nail against the Barrow Swords request.
They are a nation that has worshipped their heroic founders for ages. He is a villain. Its a change that goes against dogma and tradition = people going no! change bad!

And those names has been heroic for god knows how many generations, of course they started out heroic.
The Bard can twist and nudge the narrative. Not make blatant GM-style changes like "your all heroes now".

I agree that even if they are all true Heroes, that the current Blood would fight the inclusion of the Barrow Sword as one of the Blood. I just wonder why Mercy would show up to smite the Pilgrim if he was a Hero. They are the "Greater Good" choir, so why would they care if a province separates from a mortal empire?

[The Glyphstone]

Because the first Grey Pilgrim asked them to, is my guess.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because the first Grey Pilgrim asked them to, is my guess.

But the choir was helping the White knight, wasn't it? Why would the first Grey Pilgrim ask the choir to help his enemy? Did I miss something here?

Grey Wolf

[The Glyphstone]

But the choir was helping the White knight, wasn't it? Why would the first Grey Pilgrim ask the choir to help his enemy? Did I miss something here?

Grey Wolf

Maybe I had it backwards.

EDIT: Yeah, okay, looks like the Knight was the one who called them. So same answer, different person - the White Knight called them to aid, and they fulfilled his request. I imagine part of the Choirs having a mortal champion is, to some degree, trusting their judgement when they say 'this needs smiting'. The sort of people they'd select in the first place wouldn't be likely to abuse it, after all.

[Mith]

Maybe I had it backwards.

EDIT: Yeah, okay, looks like the Knight was the one who called them. So same answer, different person - the White Knight called them to aid, and they fulfilled his request. I imagine part of the Choirs having a mortal champion is, to some degree, trusting their judgement when they say 'this needs smiting'. The sort of people they'd select in the first place wouldn't be likely to abuse it, after all.

Fair enough. And I guess Mercy is one of the Choirs that does let their champions decide (see Tariq at the Prince's Graveyard).

[Forum Explorer]

I'm curious why Cordelia thinks this superweapon is a good idea at all. Learning it is basically a bomb that will wipe out all of Procer and then some seems to make it a losing choice. She can't even threaten the Dead King with it because he can reply that is she sure he's actually in Keter at the moment, or is he in Praes, enjoying the hospitality of Malicia?

At the same time, it scares her allies, and creates potential threats in the Dwarves who would not want that to be fired at all, and might just do a premptive strike to take it away (and destroy anyone who tries to stop them from taking it.)


Mind you, I can think of a way it would be useful, namely, as a weird bomb. Escort the bomb deep into the Hells so it doesn't activate while in Creation at all, and then the blast would likely not hurt anyone who isn't a demon anyways. Or maybe not. That could be quite the heroic story, so I think it's got a decent chance of working (particularly if there is a villain along the ride who can be redeemed and then sacrificed). But presumably, there's a reason that won't work. Maybe Angels, even their corpses, simply cannot be brought into the Hells, for example.

[lord_khaine]

I agree that even if they are all true Heroes, that the current Blood would fight the inclusion of the Barrow Sword as one of the Blood. I just wonder why Mercy would show up to smite the Pilgrim if he was a Hero. They are the "Greater Good" choir, so why would they care if a province separates from a mortal empire?

Cat's internal monologue directly answered that. Because instantly crushing the rebellion in its infancy, and instead going for internal reforms, would bring less suffering than a civil war.


I'm curious why Cordelia thinks this superweapon is a good idea at all. Learning it is basically a bomb that will wipe out all of Procer and then some seems to make it a losing choice. She can't even threaten the Dead King with it because he can reply that is she sure he's actually in Keter at the moment, or is he in Praes, enjoying the hospitality of Malicia?

Because all that Codelia has so far learned, is that according to other people, with another agenda then herself, it may possibly be a bomb.
Were i in Cordelia's shoes, ignorant of how the plot revolves around Cat, then i would honestly also keep my angel corse in reserve.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm curious why Cordelia thinks this superweapon is a good idea at all. Learning it is basically a bomb that will wipe out all of Procer and then some seems to make it a losing choice. She can't even threaten the Dead King with it because he can reply that is she sure he's actually in Keter at the moment, or is he in Praes, enjoying the hospitality of Malicia?

At the same time, it scares her allies, and creates potential threats in the Dwarves who would not want that to be fired at all, and might just do a premptive strike to take it away (and destroy anyone who tries to stop them from taking it.)


Mind you, I can think of a way it would be useful, namely, as a weird bomb. Escort the bomb deep into the Hells so it doesn't activate while in Creation at all, and then the blast would likely not hurt anyone who isn't a demon anyways. Or maybe not. That could be quite the heroic story, so I think it's got a decent chance of working (particularly if there is a villain along the ride who can be redeemed and then sacrificed). But presumably, there's a reason that won't work. Maybe Angels, even their corpses, simply cannot be brought into the Hells, for example.

The weapon isn't supposed to be a bomb, but the Bard is capable of altering it into a bomb. Without the Bard interfering, it would work differently.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm curious why Cordelia thinks this superweapon is a good idea at all.

M.A.D. doctrine? When you are a regular human in a world of superheroes, it might pay to have a red button that even they'd be scared of? or, maybe, if InvisibleBison's idea that it might not be that bad if the bard behaves or is kept away (and remember, Cordelia's cousin was able to block the Bard once already), it might be calibrated to only wipe Keter from the map.

Grey Wolf

[Tvtyrant]

I'm curious why Cordelia thinks this superweapon is a good idea at all. Learning it is basically a bomb that will wipe out all of Procer and then some seems to make it a losing choice. She can't even threaten the Dead King with it because he can reply that is she sure he's actually in Keter at the moment, or is he in Praes, enjoying the hospitality of Malicia?

At the same time, it scares her allies, and creates potential threats in the Dwarves who would not want that to be fired at all, and might just do a premptive strike to take it away (and destroy anyone who tries to stop them from taking it.)


Mind you, I can think of a way it would be useful, namely, as a weird bomb. Escort the bomb deep into the Hells so it doesn't activate while in Creation at all, and then the blast would likely not hurt anyone who isn't a demon anyways. Or maybe not. That could be quite the heroic story, so I think it's got a decent chance of working (particularly if there is a villain along the ride who can be redeemed and then sacrificed). But presumably, there's a reason that won't work. Maybe Angels, even their corpses, simply cannot be brought into the Hells, for example.

Keter's going to destroy the continent under waves of undead anyway, sacrificing half to kill off the apocalypse doesn't seem so bad. It's the same concept as nuking New York in Avengers; yeah the collateral is bad but it is less bad then losing altogether.

As has been pointed out by several characters, this is the strongest army the continent has ever assembled and it isn't winning. They have gods, heroes, villains, massive armies, thousands of mages, super weapons, and they are not actively losing to a force that isn't trying that hard. That's not a great outcome.

[lord_khaine]

M.A.D. doctrine? When you are a regular human in a world of superheroes, it might pay to have a red button that even they'd be scared of? or, maybe, if InvisibleBison's idea that it might not be that bad if the bard behaves or is kept away (and remember, Cordelia's cousin was able to block the Bard once already), it might be calibrated to only wipe Keter from the map.

Grey Wolf

Its not just an idea. Its a fact. The entire doomsday scenario revolves 100 % around both the Bard screwing around with the angel corpse,
as well as the Bard intentionally not only make it explore, but also uses her power to magnify the explosion.

So im 100 % supportive of Cordelia thinking its all a load of rubbish. And decides not to throw her super weapon away on such a flimsy ground.

In part i guess because its her country who are the battleground now.
If she is about to be overrun she might want a FU button that saves all her people from getting killed by zombies?
My preference would certainly be getting nuked over that.

[HolyDraconus]

Its not just an idea. Its a fact. The entire doomsday scenario revolves 100 % around both the Bard screwing around with the angel corpse,
as well as the Bard intentionally not only make it explore, but also uses her power to magnify the explosion.

So im 100 % supportive of Cordelia thinking its all a load of rubbish. And decides not to throw her super weapon away on such a flimsy ground.

In part i guess because its her country who are the battleground now.
If she is about to be overrun she might want a FU button that saves all her people from getting killed by zombies?
My preference would certainly be getting nuked over that.

It wont win the fight tho. At this point it's just her clutching some power to remain relevant when she would otherwise be powerless.

[Forum Explorer]

M.A.D. doctrine? When you are a regular human in a world of superheroes, it might pay to have a red button that even they'd be scared of? or, maybe, if InvisibleBison's idea that it might not be that bad if the bard behaves or is kept away (and remember, Cordelia's cousin was able to block the Bard once already), it might be calibrated to only wipe Keter from the map.

Grey Wolf

Having a weapon like that available is just begging to have someone steal it from you. And when there are names who can literally steal things like an entire fleet, you can't expect there to be a perfect security system. And the Bard just ran rampart over the security of their best fortress. There is no way Cordelia can keep her away from it.


Keter's going to destroy the continent under waves of undead anyway, sacrificing half to kill off the apocalypse doesn't seem so bad. It's the same concept as nuking New York in Avengers; yeah the collateral is bad but it is less bad then losing altogether.

As has been pointed out by several characters, this is the strongest army the continent has ever assembled and it isn't winning. They have gods, heroes, villains, massive armies, thousands of mages, super weapons, and they are not actively losing to a force that isn't trying that hard. That's not a great outcome.

As a final resort I can kinda see the point. But they've got things like Severence and Quartered Seasons as other options. So while those existence, I don't feel like Cordelia is justified in pursuing this. If anything it'd be a distraction to her allies who haven't given up yet, and very much don't want to either go extinct or lose a massive number of their troops/land.


Its not just an idea. Its a fact. The entire doomsday scenario revolves 100 % around both the Bard screwing around with the angel corpse,
as well as the Bard intentionally not only make it explore, but also uses her power to magnify the explosion.

So im 100 % supportive of Cordelia thinking its all a load of rubbish. And decides not to throw her super weapon away on such a flimsy ground.

In part i guess because its her country who are the battleground now.
If she is about to be overrun she might want a FU button that saves all her people from getting killed by zombies?
My preference would certainly be getting nuked over that.

And the Bard can 100% screw around with the corpse. We've already got evidence of her messing with Angel powers (exactly what they sent this band off to discover) and proof of her being able to penetrate the strongest and most highly defended fortress they have available. So long as the Bard is around, that weapon is more of a liability than an asset, and the Bard is around.

Also, again, the weapon is a massive FU to multiple factions. She might be willing to pull the trigger on that, but the Drow wouldn't want to be exterminated, neither would the Free Cities who get hit, and or the entire island nation who I think is currently neutral. Or the dwarves. Seriously, if I was the Drow, and Cordelia built that weapon? I'd change my evacuation to Callow so my race wouldn't go extinct because someone lost their nerve and pulled the trigger on their doomsday weapon. Which ironically, would likely create a situation where Cordelia would end up pushed to activate her doomsday weapon.

[druid91]

Having a weapon like that available is just begging to have someone steal it from you. And when there are names who can literally steal things like an entire fleet, you can't expect there to be a perfect security system. And the Bard just ran rampart over the security of their best fortress. There is no way Cordelia can keep her away from it.



As a final resort I can kinda see the point. But they've got things like Severence and Quartered Seasons as other options. So while those existence, I don't feel like Cordelia is justified in pursuing this. If anything it'd be a distraction to her allies who haven't given up yet, and very much don't want to either go extinct or lose a massive number of their troops/land.



And the Bard can 100% screw around with the corpse. We've already got evidence of her messing with Angel powers (exactly what they sent this band off to discover) and proof of her being able to penetrate the strongest and most highly defended fortress they have available. So long as the Bard is around, that weapon is more of a liability than an asset, and the Bard is around.

Also, again, the weapon is a massive FU to multiple factions. She might be willing to pull the trigger on that, but the Drow wouldn't want to be exterminated, neither would the Free Cities who get hit, and or the entire island nation who I think is currently neutral. Or the dwarves. Seriously, if I was the Drow, and Cordelia built that weapon? I'd change my evacuation to Callow so my race wouldn't go extinct because someone lost their nerve and pulled the trigger on their doomsday weapon. Which ironically, would likely create a situation where Cordelia would end up pushed to activate her doomsday weapon.

I mean, they've also made it very clear that unstoppable super weapons will never work. Because the narrative won't let it.

[lord_khaine]

And the Bard can 100% screw around with the corpse. We've already got evidence of her messing with Angel powers (exactly what they sent this band off to discover) and proof of her being able to penetrate the strongest and most highly defended fortress they have available. So long as the Bard is around, that weapon is more of a liability than an asset, and the Bard is around.


No. The only thing we know for 100 % certainty is that Bard can fiddle with the threat detection of a live angel.
Anything that follows that is educated speculation.


Also, again, the weapon is a massive FU to multiple factions. She might be willing to pull the trigger on that, but the Drow wouldn't want to be exterminated, neither would the Free Cities who get hit, and or the entire island nation who I think is currently neutral. Or the dwarves. Seriously, if I was the Drow, and Cordelia built that weapon? I'd change my evacuation to Callow so my race wouldn't go extinct because someone lost their nerve and pulled the trigger on their doomsday weapon. Which ironically, would likely create a situation where Cordelia would end up pushed to activate her doomsday weapon.

Because, again, the weapon is Not a bomb. I reapet. Its not a bomb.
This like someone harping on a stockpile of plutonium. Because it could be made into a nuclear reaktor.
And it could be sabotaged by someone to blow up. Someone by the way. Who still dont have a motive to do so.

Throwing the corpse away so early is a dumb panic reaction.
At most this is a reason to increase security and pause development.


I mean, they've also made it very clear that unstoppable super weapons will never work. Because the narrative won't let it.

Cough "severance" :smalltongue:
That certainly worked extremely well at removing a demon problem.

[Forum Explorer]

No. The only thing we know for 100 % certainty is that Bard can fiddle with the threat detection of a live angel.
Anything that follows that is educated speculation.



Because, again, the weapon is Not a bomb. I reapet. Its not a bomb.
This like someone harping on a stockpile of plutonium. Because it could be made into a nuclear reaktor.
And it could be sabotaged by someone to blow up. Someone by the way. Who still dont have a motive to do so.

Throwing the corpse away so early is a dumb panic reaction.
At most this is a reason to increase security and pause development.



Cough "severance" :smalltongue:
That certainly worked extremely well at removing a demon problem.

We also know that the calculated blast from the angel corpse would wipe out everything between Keter and Callow. And that the Bard will 100% get the opportunity to mess with it. They don't really have a reliable way to stop her, or else they would use it already.


It's not a bomb yet. Cordelia is wanting to turn it into a weapon. So plutonium is a good example, except they aren't building a reactor, they are building a nuke. Maybe you could build some sort of angelic reactor thing out of it, but Cordelia is explicitly wanting a weapon. And what are you talking about doesn't have a motive? The Wandering Bard has been very clear about her desire to destroy Keter and more importantly, to have this thing activate. To the point of sabotaging other weapons that could work against the Dead King.


The Severence isn't a super weapon though. If it goes wrong, millions of people don't die. You might have someone go insane, or turn the Saint of Swords into some weird super Reverent, but the scale of the disaster is much more limited.

[Tvtyrant]

Someone in the comments posted a good point that the trials appear to be a Thing of Threes, with Cat winning the first trial easily. Next is Mirror Knights, then Red Axe.

[Mith]

Someone in the comments posted a good point that the trials appear to be a Thing of Threes, with Cat winning the first trial easily. Next is Mirror Knights, then Red Axe.

It'll be interesting, because where Cat contests Hanno is over Mirror Knight, not the Red Axe. So having this set up may end up with 3 wins leaning on Hanno's Heroic relationship to the Pattern of Three (Mirror Knight as a mutual Draw and the Red Axe as a different victory as both Hanno and Cat are in agreement)

Of course, Cat could just lose, but it might be interesting to show how a systemic approach can break Patterns since they are not steered by Narrative.

[Tvtyrant]

It'll be interesting, because where Cat contests Hanno is over Mirror Knight, not the Red Axe. So having this set up may end up with 3 wins leaning on Hanno's Heroic relationship to the Pattern of Three (Mirror Knight as a mutual Draw and the Red Axe as a different victory as both Hanno and Cat are in agreement)

Of course, Cat could just lose, but it might be interesting to show how a systemic approach can break Patterns since they are not steered by Narrative.

Is the conflict Cat vs. Hanno? I kind of see it as the Terms vs. Independent Motives, where Cat wants the Terms to survive foremost while the constituents are mostly interested in their own survival and viewpoints. Hasenbach wants the HA to retain soverignty and Procer to retain independent viability, Hanno wants justice done, etc.

[lord_khaine]

We also know that the calculated blast from the angel corpse would wipe out everything between Keter and Callow. And that the Bard will 100% get the opportunity to mess with it. They don't really have a reliable way to stop her, or else they would use it already.

Thats still based on the chosing to Bard meddle, the Bard meddling to turn the corpse into a bomb, and the Bard getting the oppotunity to do so.
We got 3 steps here, each with a chance of failure. So it can in no way be 100 % chance of explosion.
Where it should also be pointed out, the episodes with both Black and the Augur shows the Bard can indeed be foiled in her plans.


It's not a bomb yet. Cordelia is wanting to turn it into a weapon. So plutonium is a good example, except they aren't building a reactor, they are building a nuke. Maybe you could build some sort of angelic reactor thing out of it, but Cordelia is explicitly wanting a weapon. And what are you talking about doesn't have a motive? The Wandering Bard has been very clear about her desire to destroy Keter and more importantly, to have this thing activate. To the point of sabotaging other weapons that could work against the Dead King.

No.. it could also be they are building a nuklear powered rail gun. We dont know anything about how you weaponise an angel corpse.
Except that its a bad idea.

But yes we have evidence of Bard wanting the corpse used somehow.
What we lack evidence of is she will interfere when its used. For all we know she is content with its intended use.
And the Dead King are just playing mind games.

[Rynjin]

Thats still based on the chosing to Bard meddle, the Bard meddling to turn the corpse into a bomb, and the Bard getting the oppotunity to do so.
We got 3 steps here, each with a chance of failure. So it can in no way be 100 % chance of explosion.
Where it should also be pointed out, the episodes with both Black and the Augur shows the Bard can indeed be foiled in her plans.

Perhaps, but at what percentage of success is an 80% (conservative) casualty rate for an entire continent acceptable?

Especially given we know for as near to an absolute fact that there is a precisely 0% chance of this thing working to kill the Dead King.

It is the definition of a high risk, low reward scenario. Even assuming there's a 10% (and that's generous) chance of it actually succeeding, when the consequences for failure are as bad or worse than the thing it would be preventing, it's not worth considering as a possibility. So what would you consider the Bard's chance of success is, if not 100%? 80%? 60%? 30%?

Taking even a 15% chance of making things way, way worse for the 10% chance of total success is a fool's gamble in this situation.

[lord_khaine]

Perhaps, but at what percentage of success is an 80% (conservative) casualty rate for an entire continent acceptable?

Rather simple question. At the point where those odds look better than a 90% casualty rate from another source.


Especially given we know for as near to an absolute fact that there is a precisely 0% chance of this thing working to kill the Dead King.

It is the definition of a high risk, low reward scenario. Even assuming there's a 10% (and that's generous) chance of it actually succeeding, when the consequences for failure are as bad or worse than the thing it would be preventing, it's not worth considering as a possibility. So what would you consider the Bard's chance of success is, if not 100%? 80%? 60%? 30%?

Taking even a 15% chance of making things way, way worse for the 10% chance of total success is a fool's gamble in this situation.

No. Thats a mistake in classifying the scenario. WE know it has no chance of working because that would not fit the story we are reading.

But Cat isnt the main character in Cordelia's story. She dont have access to impartial information on what unfolds.

And so until then, keeping the corpse around as a backup is the definition of a low risk /high reward scenario.
Whats the risk as long as you dont do anything with the corpse? nothing.
Whats the reward if stuff breaks down and the Death king is suddenly sieging her capital? Massive since she suddenly have a tool of last resort that would annoy even him.

[druid91]

Rather simple question. At the point where those odds look better than a 90% casualty rate from another source.



No. Thats a mistake in classifying the scenario. WE know it has no chance of working because that would not fit the story we are reading.

But Cat isnt the main character in Cordelia's story. She dont have access to impartial information on what unfolds.

And so until then, keeping the corpse around as a backup is the definition of a low risk /high reward scenario.
Whats the risk as long as you dont do anything with the corpse? nothing.
Whats the reward if stuff breaks down and the Death king is suddenly sieging her capital? Massive since she suddenly have a tool of last resort that would annoy even him.

I mean, except even IN UNIVERSE giant doomsday weapons that destroy nations are known to never work or backfire at inopportune moments for narrative reasons. They could literally ask almost any experienced named.

[Tvtyrant]

I mean, except even IN UNIVERSE giant doomsday weapons that destroy nations are known to never work or backfire at inopportune moments for narrative reasons. They could literally ask almost any experienced named.

Yeah except Cat and Malicia thought Liesse would work, Praes still has super weapons stock piled, and the whole Triumphant thing (also the Gnomes.) The Drow turned their souls into an invincible barrier that lasted thousands of years.

Clearly tremendous effort goes into keeping those weapons from working by Bard or the Gods. We also have Black saying they never work, who is competent but also nuts.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah except Cat and Malicia thought Liesse would work, Praes still has super weapons stock piled, and the whole Triumphant thing (also the Gnomes.) The Drow turned their souls into an invincible barrier that lasted thousands of years.

Clearly tremendous effort goes into keeping those weapons from working by Bard or the Gods. We also have Black saying they never work, who is competent but also nuts.

The Drow's barrier/misdirection thing wasn't a weapon. It was a defense. And it was failing - the Dwarves penetrated it and were actively waging a war against them on the wrong side of it when Cat went into the Everdark.

Liesse probably would have worked.. for a while. The idea after all was to *not use it* - it was to be the sword in the terrible-wine-or-get-stabbed diplomacy. But it also would have attracted or spawned heroes all across Calernia to try and destroy it, and not even Black could fend off the stories that would build against it forever. It would get destroyed sooner or later, and if they were lucky it would be the only thing destroyed when it happened. And then what would happen to the agreements made with the other nations under threat of Hellgate? Or if by chance it actually did get fired? Praes becomes an even worse pariah for having made and threatened other nations with the weapon, or it gets an honest-to-Above Crusade launched on it for having used it. One that is founded on needing to put down a lunatic nation that actually has a hellish weapon, not just political expediency and 'Well, you know, Praes is like Evil and things, so this is Good.'

[Mith]

Is the conflict Cat vs. Hanno? I kind of see it as the Terms vs. Independent Motives, where Cat wants the Terms to survive foremost while the constituents are mostly interested in their own survival and viewpoints. Hasenbach wants the HA to retain soverignty and Procer to retain independent viability, Hanno wants justice done, etc.

Fair point. I guess I see Hanno and Cat as two blades of a set of shears: solidly joined and closely if not completely in alignment.

As such if they are working together, they can take most obstacles.

Cat is not opposed to Justice. Her desire for Order and Peace can couple well with Hanno's drive for Justice. And to be entirely honest, if it isn't coupled with Justice, it would be with Tyranny, which means it would never last.

[Forum Explorer]

Thats still based on the chosing to Bard meddle, the Bard meddling to turn the corpse into a bomb, and the Bard getting the oppotunity to do so.
We got 3 steps here, each with a chance of failure. So it can in no way be 100 % chance of explosion.
Where it should also be pointed out, the episodes with both Black and the Augur shows the Bard can indeed be foiled in her plans.



No.. it could also be they are building a nuklear powered rail gun. We dont know anything about how you weaponise an angel corpse.
Except that its a bad idea.

But yes we have evidence of Bard wanting the corpse used somehow.
What we lack evidence of is she will interfere when its used. For all we know she is content with its intended use.
And the Dead King are just playing mind games.

That's not three steps with each a chance to fail. The bard has already meddled, so she's likely made her choice, if the Bard is going to meddle it's to turn the angel into a guranteed kill shot. The only possible points of failure is the Bard might be shut down in her meddling like she was in the Arsenal. Which she wasn't. Not entirely. They saved Quartered Seasons sure, but Severence got in the hands of the Mirror Knight who has promptly messed things up for the Heroes, threatening the Truce and Terms which might break down the trust in heroes, and push Cordelia towards making the Angel bomb.

It's true. They could succeed in stopping the Bard. Her attempt to meddle might be pretty much guaranteed at this point, but her success is not. However, she's an incredibly skilled Named who just launched a devastating attack against the Arsenal, an interdimensional fortress while guarded by the Black Queen and dozens of other Named.

They are dealing with something that has the power to hit nearly the entire continent. A precision weapon it ain't. Mind you, I can think of a few possibilities on how you could wield it, such as transporting it into the Hells and activating it there. Or at least trying to stuff it into the Hellgate in Keter, and plugging it up. But it is still incredibly risky.

From what we last saw from the Bard, content is not the word I would use for her. She seems to be pushing towards something disastrous.

[Tvtyrant]

The Drow's barrier/misdirection thing wasn't a weapon. It was a defense. And it was failing - the Dwarves penetrated it and were actively waging a war against them on the wrong side of it when Cat went into the Everdark.

Liesse probably would have worked.. for a while. The idea after all was to *not use it* - it was to be the sword in the terrible-wine-or-get-stabbed diplomacy. But it also would have attracted or spawned heroes all across Calernia to try and destroy it, and not even Black could fend off the stories that would build against it forever. It would get destroyed sooner or later, and if they were lucky it would be the only thing destroyed when it happened. And then what would happen to the agreements made with the other nations under threat of Hellgate? Or if by chance it actually did get fired? Praes becomes an even worse pariah for having made and threatened other nations with the weapon, or it gets an honest-to-Above Crusade launched on it for having used it. One that is founded on needing to put down a lunatic nation that actually has a hellish weapon, not just political expediency and 'Well, you know, Praes is like Evil and things, so this is Good.'

After thousands of years. And then they actually ascended to being deities, so it in fact worked.

That's kind of the point though, they say it doesn't work because for Black to win he has to conquer everything in a blanket of darkness forever. They certainly do work in the short run, it's just that good and evil always resume their starting places in the long run. Except that DK is outside that narrative, he's in opposition to that narrative itself. The use of a super-weapon won't lead to deific interference or heroes popping up to save him.

[Forum Explorer]

After thousands of years. And then they actually ascended to being deities, so it in fact worked.

That's kind of the point though, they say it doesn't work because for Black to win he has to conquer everything in a blanket of darkness forever. They certainly do work in the short run, it's just that good and evil always resume their starting places in the long run. Except that DK is outside that narrative, he's in opposition to that narrative itself. The use of a super-weapon won't lead to deific interference or heroes popping up to save him.

What the Sisters did wasn't a super weapon though. It was a last ditch effort to save their species from extinction, which pretty much wiped out their culture and left them in a terrible loop of murdering each other and constantly tearing each other down that could only be broken by outside intervention.

That's a devil's bargain, and very much not the same thing.

DK isn't outside the narrative though. He's instead really good at wielding stories and avoiding traps. Like not overreaching and making sure that he isn't the main focus. Like they could banish him right now by killing Malicia because he doesn't want to be the 'main villain'.

[lord_khaine]

That's not three steps with each a chance to fail. The bard has already meddled, so she's likely made her choice, if the Bard is going to meddle it's to turn the angel into a guranteed kill shot. The only possible points of failure is the Bard might be shut down in her meddling like she was in the Arsenal. Which she wasn't. Not entirely. They saved Quartered Seasons sure, but Severence got in the hands of the Mirror Knight who has promptly messed things up for the Heroes, threatening the Truce and Terms which might break down the trust in heroes, and push Cordelia towards making the Angel bomb.

That is 3 seperate steps. That the Bard has meddled in something different does not guarantee she will meddle in this. She has also refrained from messing with stuff.

The Bard meddling isnt guaranteed to make the corpse a massive bomb. If you want to get rid of someone in a bunker, what do you want the most? a big bomb that waste 99% of its energy?
Or a bunker-busting missile?

And the Bard was shut down to her plan C or B in the arsenal thing. They saved Quartered Seasons.
And the Mirror Knight did save the Severence, as well as all of Arsenal. White Knight just afterwards had to step in and deal with the secondary disaster.


It's true. They could succeed in stopping the Bard. Her attempt to meddle might be pretty much guaranteed at this point, but her success is not. However, she's an incredibly skilled Named who just launched a devastating attack against the Arsenal, an interdimensional fortress while guarded by the Black Queen and dozens of other Named.

They are dealing with something that has the power to hit nearly the entire continent. A precision weapon it ain't. Mind you, I can think of a few possibilities on how you could wield it, such as transporting it into the Hells and activating it there. Or at least trying to stuff it into the Hellgate in Keter, and plugging it up. But it is still incredibly risky.

From what we last saw from the Bard, content is not the word I would use for her. She seems to be pushing towards something disastrous.

Well, i again think your thinking is to stuck on how this is something that the Bard -can- blow up somehow.
A dry forest is also a disaster waiting to happen if you got a bottle of napalm. So is a tanker full of rocket fuel.
But you can also use those to take a walk in. Or send someone off to the moon (excellent Dead King solution)

So all we can say is this got a crapton of energy.
So it could also be used for a Sword of Power style weapon, imbueing someone with the power of a choir He-Man/She-Ra style.
Or be used for a wave motion cannon to snipe the dead kings castle.

And i wont hold characters accountable for information about the Bard its only readers who have.

[aguaracu]

Mega post on several sub-threads, if I've misattributed a quote please say so:

I agree with The Glyphstone and lord_khaine, Hanno's life is often on the line and he has made his peace with that. I do wonder where he got his savvy from though, I don't think he had it when the Black Knight schooled him in the Free Cities. I suppose that - as Iruka says - he has been studying the past lives rather carefully since then.

I would expect Tariq and Laurence to train the Heroes under their wings but very little learning of any sort seems to have stuck with Christophe if they did. I think Catherine's training under Amadeus must have been an unusual confluence of superb teacher and exceptional pupil as it doesn't seem to be replicated elsewhere. The Bard and the Neshamah already had Catherine marked down as one to watch before she started dipping into the Arcadian echoes.



Yeah except Cat and Malicia thought Liesse would work, Praes still has super weapons stock piled, and the whole Triumphant thing (also the Gnomes.) The Drow turned their souls into an invincible barrier that lasted thousands of years.
Well... Malicia expected Liesse to work for Malicia, not for Akua. Even so, Liesse and Still Waters were enough to get the 10th Crusade going, and pointed at Praes.
Triumphant may she never return did succeed in conquering the whole of Calernia with her monstrosities; that's why the 1st Crusade put her down and carved up Praes.


Keter's going to destroy the continent under waves of undead anyway, sacrificing half to kill off the apocalypse doesn't seem so bad. It's the same concept as nuking New York in Avengers; yeah the collateral is bad but it is less bad then losing altogether.
The others are not doing a very good job of scaring Hasenbach. As you say, the 'worst case scenario' would be an improvement over doing nothing at that stage. But, and this is my opinion, the Bard's plot may be something more devious than "Rocks fall, everybody dies."


As has been pointed out by several characters, this is the strongest army the continent has ever assembled and it isn't winning. They have gods, heroes, villains, massive armies, thousands of mages, super weapons, and they are not actively losing to a force that isn't trying that hard. That's not a great outcome.
Bard did say that Neshamah has much more available to him. She made this claim in a face off where I think directly lying would be bad for her story-wise, but where she might omit caveats. For example: breaking out the big guns might bring a story down Neshamah's head, or attract the attention of a major power. Remember that Keter and the Kingdom Under are middling powers, everyone else on Calernia is a local hick.


Because all that Codelia has so far learned, is that according to other people, with another agenda then herself, it may possibly be a bomb.
Were i in Cordelia's shoes, ignorant of how the plot revolves around Cat, then i would honestly also keep my angel corse in reserve.

As a final resort I can kinda see the point. But they've got things like Severence and Quartered Seasons as other options. So while those existence, I don't feel like Cordelia is justified in pursuing this. If anything it'd be a distraction to her allies who haven't given up yet, and very much don't want to either go extinct or lose a massive number of their troops/land.
An implied danger is that - since the Bard wants to force the use of the angel - the continued existence of the weapon results in the Bard sabotaging every other attempt to defend against the Dead King. However, trying to convince Cordelia of this rather easily devolves into saying "No, we must do it our way not your way. You're spoiling it for everybody else." when Cordelia already feels that she lacks agency and is at the mercy of everyone else.
Remember, Agnes and Cordelia have actually succeeded in out manoeuvring the Wandering Bard before, which counts for something in my book.


Having a weapon like that available is just begging to have someone steal it from you. And when there are names who can literally steal things like an entire fleet, you can't expect there to be a perfect security system. And the Bard just ran rampart over the security of their best fortress. There is no way Cordelia can keep her away from it.
Of course everyone knows that holding a last-ditch doomsday weapon is a huge trouble magnet. The only thing that could possibly draw as much grief is putting two ill-advised super-weapons into a trans-dimensional magical fortress. Did you catch that lingering scent of burning fairy with undertones of rotting demon[1]? Smells like hypocrisy, doesn't it Cat?

I think that turning Neshamah into a god is even more dangerous than the angel nuke. Especially when you consider that he was the one who invited the Woe to Keter to discuss apotheosis. He has a history of laying traps for people who follow his studies into things with which man must not meddle, he caught Masego that way last time.

[1] After all the fun and games I was expecting a demon of absence to make it's presence unfelt in the Arsenal.



It'll be interesting, because where Cat contests Hanno is over Mirror Knight, not the Red Axe. So having this set up may end up with 3 wins leaning on Hanno's Heroic relationship to the Pattern of Three (Mirror Knight as a mutual Draw and the Red Axe as a different victory as both Hanno and Cat are in agreement)

Is the conflict Cat vs. Hanno? I kind of see it as the Terms vs. Independent Motives, where Cat wants the Terms to survive foremost while the constituents are mostly interested in their own survival and viewpoints. Hasenbach wants the HA to retain soverignty and Procer to retain independent viability, Hanno wants justice done, etc.
I also thought that the last chapter went suspiciously smoothly and started looking for a pattern of three; and an opponent.
Perhaps this will do: the Bard attacked the Quartered Seasons, the Severance and the Truce and Terms.
Quartered Seasons was successfully defended. The attack on the Severance ended up in a horrible mess where nobody won. The Truce and Terms are still in play and this contest itself will be decided by a pattern of three...

On another note, Careful Yannu seemed rather amenable and easy going - this makes me nervous.

[The Glyphstone]

Have we seen any mention of the gnomes since Book One? Or have they been discarded as the story evolved?

[lord_khaine]

Have we seen any mention of the gnomes since Book One? Or have they been discarded as the story evolved?

We have not heard of them since.
But i dont think discarded is the right term. More that they have served their purpose, in explaining the technological statis.

Edit. New chapter.


Perfect display of judgement by the White Knight. Shows why he remains my favorite hero.
Not going to allow judgement to get pressured by political consideration.

And actually finding a sentence that solves the issue.
Tariq's whole purpose is to mentor troubled heroes. And it makes practical use of the Mirrorknights raw power.

Also liked the rather adult handling of the angel corpse.
In the end it came down to bartering :smallbiggrin:

[Forum Explorer]

Well I'm convinced we've fallen into a pattern of three with these trials. With the Truce and Terms being one side and the other being something unknown for now.

First trial was a win for the Truce and Terms. Everyone left satisfied.

Second trial was a draw for the Truce and Terms. Faith in the heroes was a little rattled, and Cordelia is feeling cold towards the Terms, but justice was served and things were done properly.

Third trial looks to be a loss, shattering Cordelia's faith in the terms, or the strength of the terms.

[aguaracu]

We have not heard of them since.
But i dont think discarded is the right term. More that they have served their purpose, in explaining the technological statis.
I also thought the gnomes were setting rather than story.
There's lots of dangling threads though: Assassin, Larat, a human civilisation living in the Serenity... Scribe is always a dangling thread as well, so forgettable.


Perfect display of judgement by the White Knight. Shows why he remains my favorite hero.
Not going to allow judgement to get pressured by political consideration.
If I were Hanno I would have compromised with Cordelia and sentenced Christophe to a week in the cells. This would, quite coincidentally, keep the twit safely out of the way for Red Axe's trial, but Hanno is clearly a better man than I am. This is probably for the best, someone needs to go into the 3rd trial with a morally defensible position.


And actually finding a sentence that solves the issue.
Tariq's whole purpose is to mentor troubled heroes. And it makes practical use of the Mirrorknights raw power.
Meh, Saint of Swords wannabe, full of shortcuts to power. Shortcuts to his grotty attitude as well, at least the Saint came by her surliness honestly. :smalltongue:
That said, I do hope it works and that he grows up; he comes across as a teenager who wants to do the right thing.
Hanno doesn't even have to ask if Tariq will put his life on the line for another student, it's just the right thing to do.


Also liked the rather adult handling of the angel corpse.
In the end it came down to bartering :smallbiggrin:

Cat's corrupting influence: confirmed.

[lord_khaine]

If I were Hanno I would have compromised with Cordelia and sentenced Christophe to a week in the cells. This would, quite coincidentally, keep the twit safely out of the way for Red Axe's trial, but Hanno is clearly a better man than I am. This is probably for the best, someone needs to go into the 3rd trial with a morally defensible position.


Well, Hanno is clearly a better man. Just in general. Its his whole deal :D
And as such, sticking Christoph in a cell denies the Alliance a massive war asset for a week, and are unlikely to make Christophe a better man.
Skipping him off to grandpa Tariq will meanwhile litterally save lives on the front when the next dragon zombie chokes on him.


Meh, Saint of Swords wannabe, full of shortcuts to power.

That and help getting him back on track faster.
Because.. not to be pedantic. Or well.. to be pedantic. As such Mirrorknight is taking the opposite of a shortcut.
He is taking the longest road. Its just not a road that will end. He is Above's long term investment.
Already so tough its Hanno's knee and the stone beneath that gives out before his skull. Imagine 10 years down the line?
But it does then become paramount that he is handed over to a wise mentor.

[Tvtyrant]

Agreed there. Mirror Knight is shaping up to be a Player if he can get his head on straight. No one else can wield the Severity (which he might just absorb into his own Name over time) and he is nearly indestructible. Killing a mess of demons puts him at the top in power, his brain puts him at the bottom of usefulness.

[Rydiro]

I also thought the gnomes were setting rather than story.
There's lots of dangling threads though: Assassin, Larat, a human civilisation living in the Serenity... Scribe is always a dangling thread as well, so forgettable I'm pretty sure that scribe is assassin and thats not ink on her hands.

[NigelWalmsley]

(also the Gnomes.)

The Gnomes don't have a superweapon. That's what makes them so powerful. From the (admittedly very limited) information we have on them, they're just using technology and winning off the back of that, which fits with the superiority of the Dwarves and the way that instituting meaningful reforms and using good tactics allowed Black to turn Praes from a laughingstock to a real power.


I suppose that - as Iruka says - he has been studying the past lives rather carefully since then.

The bits of Hanno's POV we get seem to indicate that he's pulled so much in from past lives that he almost doesn't know which parts are him and which parts are old heroes anymore. Which is priming him for a hell of a fall at some point, though the exact shape that'll take is unclear as yet.


I would expect Tariq and Laurence to train the Heroes under their wings but very little learning of any sort seems to have stuck with Christophe if they did. I think Catherine's training under Amadeus must have been an unusual confluence of superb teacher and exceptional pupil as it doesn't seem to be replicated elsewhere.

It's more that Black is basically the only person in the setting who seems to really care about competent professionalism instead of story-powered grandstanding. He managed to conquer Callow basically by just "having a professional army" and "not behaving like the antagonist of a cheap novel". One of the big themes the series hammers on is the effectiveness of that kind of competence and training (particularly in war). If you look at the Tenth Crusade, basically the only reason the crusaders got anywhere against Black was Name cheating. In a straight fight, he would have held against them with close to 0 losses.


Third trial looks to be a loss, shattering Cordelia's faith in the terms, or the strength of the terms.

That's true, but remember that Cat is on one side, and one of her signature moves is taking a Pattern of Three that's aligned against her to the face and winning anyway (Lone Swordsman and Heiress at First Liesse, Pilgrim at the Prince's Graveyard). I tentatively expect that if this does count as a Pattern, Cat will figure out some way to win regardless.

[Forum Explorer]

That's true, but remember that Cat is on one side, and one of her signature moves is taking a Pattern of Three that's aligned against her to the face and winning anyway (Lone Swordsman and Heiress at First Liesse, Pilgrim at the Prince's Graveyard). I tentatively expect that if this does count as a Pattern, Cat will figure out some way to win regardless.

No, she does still lose, she just manages to control the loss so it's not so devastating, and then immediately follows it up with a win to make up for it. For example, the Lone Swordsmen did kill her.

She might be able to do the same here, but I don't think she realizes that she has to.

[lord_khaine]

The Gnomes don't have a superweapon. That's what makes them so powerful. From the (admittedly very limited) information we have on them, they're just using technology and winning off the back of that, which fits with the superiority of the Dwarves and the way that instituting meaningful reforms and using good tactics allowed Black to turn Praes from a laughingstock to a real power.

Gnomes absolutely do have superweapons. They glassed a town.
But you have absolutely misunderstood them if you think reforms or tactics have anything to do here. The Gnomes are as previously mentioned a plot device.
They are an explanation for the technological stagnation, thats it. Nothing more should be read into what they do, or how they do it.


It's more that Black is basically the only person in the setting who seems to really care about competent professionalism instead of story-powered grandstanding. He managed to conquer Callow basically by just "having a professional army" and "not behaving like the antagonist of a cheap novel". One of the big themes the series hammers on is the effectiveness of that kind of competence and training (particularly in war). If you look at the Tenth Crusade, basically the only reason the crusaders got anywhere against Black was Name cheating. In a straight fight, he would have held against them with close to 0 losses.

That runs contrary to the actual story. Its like you got an idea, and are now trying to force a square story though a round idea hole.
For a start, the entire Proccer civil war was fought without named on any side. That was pure tactics.
And Black got just as far by having a team of absurdly powerful named behind him. Warlock alone is a walking, army wrecking doomsday device.

While as for the 10th Crusade, its funny you call it name cheating. While completely neglegting the BS it is, that we got 1 side who is a regular medieval army.
And another side who better than real world grade explosives, as well as engineers who see in the dark...

[NigelWalmsley]

Gnomes absolutely do have superweapons. They glassed a town.

They have nukes, or maybe just really big bombs. The point is that they're not relying on big rituals or narrative crutches, which Black points out can turn on you. For an example that actually happens on screen, look at the Dwarves versus the Drow. The Drow are basically all Shonen Anime characters, while the Dwarves just show up with infantry formations with crossbow and siege support. And yet they beat the Drow like rented mules. Or look at the Dead King. His whole shtick is that he's the longest-lived and most powerful villain on the continent precisely because he doesn't lean on villainous tropes to beat people. When he wants to bring down a castle, he doesn't use a ritual that breaks open the sky, he uses (admittedly creepy and undead) siege towers.


For a start, the entire Proccer civil war was fought without named on any side. That was pure tactics.

For most of the war it was throwing bodies at each other, backed by Malicia's willingness to fund anyone who wanted to keep fighting. What ultimately ended the war was the intervention of a side with Named backing in the Augur. At no point did Procer develop anything like the professional military or War College Black instituted in Praes.


And Black got just as far by having a team of absurdly powerful named behind him. Warlock alone is a walking, army wrecking doomsday device.

Who very rarely gets taken off the leash. In the Vales, Black largely held him back until he was needed to counter the Witch.


While as for the 10th Crusade, its funny you call it name cheating. While completely neglegting the BS it is, that we got 1 side who is a regular medieval army.
And another side who better than real world grade explosives, as well as engineers who see in the dark...

Yeah, that's the point. One side is relying on story, the other side is relying on superior technology and tactics. There's nothing stopping Procer from training their troops more effectively, or learning to build their own siege, or developing their own answers to goblinfire. They just happen to rely on the power granted by the heavens instead.

[Noldo]

Agreed there. Mirror Knight is shaping up to be a Player if he can get his head on straight. No one else can wield the Severity (which he might just absorb into his own Name over time) and he is nearly indestructible. Killing a mess of demons puts him at the top in power, his brain puts him at the bottom of usefulness.

Interesting point here that I doubt the Grand Alliance will have one year to spare so it is almost given (story wise) that Mirror Knight’s apprenticeship will be interrupted. The monthly reports open the possibility that he will actually start his time, but doubt we will see more than one or two reports before Tariq and/or Mirror Knight is dragged back to the front.

[lord_khaine]

They have nukes, or maybe just really big bombs. The point is that they're not relying on big rituals or narrative crutches, which Black points out can turn on you. For an example that actually happens on screen, look at the Dwarves versus the Drow. The Drow are basically all Shonen Anime characters, while the Dwarves just show up with infantry formations with crossbow and siege support. And yet they beat the Drow like rented mules. Or look at the Dead King. His whole shtick is that he's the longest-lived and most powerful villain on the continent precisely because he doesn't lean on villainous tropes to beat people. When he wants to bring down a castle, he doesn't use a ritual that breaks open the sky, he uses (admittedly creepy and undead) siege towers.

Yeah. Thats the bit im calling BS on. Calling it narrative cruches. The Drow/Dwarf fight is a horrible example.
Because its -not- infantry formations or siege support that allows the Dwarfes to win that fight. Its superiosity in magic, lava golems, magic dampening runes. All those things.
In short stuff that would get called a narrative crutch if someone else relied on it.
Samt with the Dead King. Undead Siege towers is about as Necromancer trope as you can get. And it works because of overwhelming power.


For most of the war it was throwing bodies at each other, backed by Malicia's willingness to fund anyone who wanted to keep fighting. What ultimately ended the war was the intervention of a side with Named backing in the Augur. At no point did Procer develop anything like the professional military or War College Black instituted in Praes.

It was absolutely not just throwing bodies at each other. If it were Klaus would not have the reputation of being a great general.
And no what the Augur mainly did was another named, Malicia, from screwing stuff up to badly.
What ended the civil war was Codelia being both a brilliant diplomat and strategist.

Also how the heck do you want Procer to reform their military during a civil war?


Who very rarely gets taken off the leash. In the Vales, Black largely held him back until he was needed to counter the Witch.

Who got taken off the leash whenever it was needed. Warlock did not earn his title of Soverign of red Skies by picking flowers.
He got that by wrecking armies.


Yeah, that's the point. One side is relying on story, the other side is relying on superior technology and tactics. There's nothing stopping Procer from training their troops more effectively, or learning to build their own siege, or developing their own answers to goblinfire. They just happen to rely on the power granted by the heavens instead.

No. Thats not the point. Thats completely ignoring the point.
The point being that one side does not as such have superior tactics. Or troops that are that much better. They just have BS explosives that happens to be impossible to replicate.
You seriously think no other nation has thrown major fortunes after alchemists the first time a munition blew up a unit of infantry? :smallconfused:
So yeah.. its very easy to have "superior" tactics. When you got landmines, hand grenades and phosphorus bombs. Oh and a undead dragon.

The 10th crusade isnt relying on a story. Or stories. They are just using them to counter the BS advantages the other side has.

[NigelWalmsley]

Because its -not- infantry formations or siege support that allows the Dwarfes to win that fight. Its superiosity in magic, lava golems, magic dampening runes. All those things.
In short stuff that would get called a narrative crutch if someone else relied on it.

The lava golems are explicitly just a piece of Dwarven infrastructure. They use them to power their forges. It's the difference between power that relies on a single Named individual, and power that comes from your society's technical or magical developments. The narrative crutch is an explicit, specific thing. It's relying on a Name or an Aspect or an extravagant ritual to try to turn the tide of a war in one stroke. It's not just "having stuff that is way better than the other guy's stuff".


Samt with the Dead King. Undead Siege towers is about as Necromancer trope as you can get. And it works because of overwhelming power.

No, it doesn't. If the Dead King relied on overwhelming power, Calernia wouldn't be in the mess it's in, because the nature of Heroes is that overwhelming power doesn't work against them. The Dead King is successful not because of overwhelming power, but overwhelming caution. In the Arcadian echoes, his rise to power was not the swiftest path, or the easiest path, or the strongest path. It was the path that gave the Intercessor absolutely no foothold to intervene. In his talks with Cat, he says that he could drown the continent in corpses if he so choose. But he chooses not to do that, because doing so would only result in his eventual unmaking.


What ended the civil war was Codelia being both a brilliant diplomat and strategist.

Cordelia definitely comes the closest to Black. But by her nature, she's a bureaucrat and a diplomat, not a warrior. She ends the Proceran civil war not by fielding a structurally superior army (which is how Black conquered Callow), but by outmaneuvering the other players.


Also how the heck do you want Procer to reform their military during a civil war?

That's exactly what Black did. The core of the new legions was forged in the Praesi civil war that lead to his and Malicia's rise.


The point being that one side does not as such have superior tactics. Or troops that are that much better. They just have BS explosives that happens to be impossible to replicate.

Their troops are better. Proceran armies are comprised of the house troops of the Princes (I think there's a specific term, but I forget it), fantassin mercenaries, and peasant levies. They lack overall cohesion and centralized leadership. Whereas the Legions are trained in tactics as a unit, including a combined-arms approach to warfare that leverages Praesi mages, crossbowmen, and Goblin siege and explosives to support their infantry. It's emphatically not just "BS explosives". They have an overall approach to war that is more sophisticated and more modern. Plus, in the Vales they were holding a superior defensive position with siege superiority and no logistical concerns. If you take Named out of the equation, Praes wins that 10/10.

[Rydiro]

The author is overall pretty inconsistent with his story vs organization thing. During the first few books organization is king, now story is.
It was never explained how the dwarves could win against drow, who can basically solo armies. And those werent even top tier drow.
Its never explained how black could win a war against callow when hanno alone can turn a loosing fight into a massacre of a fifth of blacks troops and get away. Cavalry charge through mountainous choke+minefield into prepared infantry and crossbowmen, no less.

The story just isnt very solid in those aspects. It does gloss over too many things.

[lord_khaine]

The lava golems are explicitly just a piece of Dwarven infrastructure. They use them to power their forges. It's the difference between power that relies on a single Named individual, and power that comes from your society's technical or magical developments. The narrative crutch is an explicit, specific thing. It's relying on a Name or an Aspect or an extravagant ritual to try to turn the tide of a war in one stroke. It's not just "having stuff that is way better than the other guy's stuff".

So far narrative cruch seems mainly defined by "named stuff you dislike" then. Because as such the Drow did not use ANY of those things.


No, it doesn't. If the Dead King relied on overwhelming power, Calernia wouldn't be in the mess it's in, because the nature of Heroes is that overwhelming power doesn't work against them. The Dead King is successful not because of overwhelming power, but overwhelming caution. In the Arcadian echoes, his rise to power was not the swiftest path, or the easiest path, or the strongest path. It was the path that gave the Intercessor absolutely no foothold to intervene. In his talks with Cat, he says that he could drown the continent in corpses if he so choose. But he chooses not to do that, because doing so would only result in his eventual unmaking.

Overwhelming power does work on heroes. We have seen that several times in the comic. They get an edge when the odds are against them.
But Callow is filled with graves that show, that there is a level of power that overwhelms that edge. Some were filled by Cat. Most by Black.

And seriously. You call vomiting out hordes, and hordes and hordes, and hordes of undead caution?
Because thats the reason Calernia is screwed. Not because he is cautious. But because he is powerful.


Cordelia definitely comes the closest to Black. But by her nature, she's a bureaucrat and a diplomat, not a warrior. She ends the Proceran civil war not by fielding a structurally superior army (which is how Black conquered Callow), but by outmaneuvering the other players.

Structurally superior is the sort of stuff you can do when you got peace to build in.
And yes she outmaneuvered the other players. That is my entire point. She showed strategic superiosity, while her uncle displayed tactical superiosity.


That's exactly what Black did. The core of the new legions was forged in the Praesi civil war that lead to his and Malicia's rise.

Yes. That just meant he had a veteran core to build his new legions around.
But Black did not go directly from Civil war to invading.


Their troops are better. Proceran armies are comprised of the house troops of the Princes (I think there's a specific term, but I forget it), fantassin mercenaries, and peasant levies. They lack overall cohesion and centralized leadership. Whereas the Legions are trained in tactics as a unit, including a combined-arms approach to warfare that leverages Praesi mages, crossbowmen, and Goblin siege and explosives to support their infantry. It's emphatically not just "BS explosives". They have an overall approach to war that is more sophisticated and more modern. Plus, in the Vales they were holding a superior defensive position with siege superiority and no logistical concerns. If you take Named out of the equation, Praes wins that 10/10.

Yes. Proccer's armies are build the way your forced to build an army when combining several semi-independent forces. But they showed no signs of lacking cohesion or leadership in the vale fight.
Certainly none that were meaningful.

And well. Yes the combined arms thing is nice. Though not that special. Proccer does the same thing, combining priests, infantry and siege.
So it most definitly is the BS explosives that makes the actual difference. Its very easy being more modern, when you have access to modern tools.
But its those who does the actual difference. Had munition been taken out of the equation as well. Then Praes would be screwed.

So as such. Thats just as much of a cruch as you accused heroic named of being.
Despite both sides having access to named. While its only 1 side who has hand grenades and phosphor bombs.

edit.

The author is overall pretty inconsistent with his story vs organization thing. During the first few books organization is king, now story is.
It was never explained how the dwarves could win against drow, who can basically solo armies. And those werent even top tier drow.
Its never explained how black could win a war against callow when hanno alone can turn a loosing fight into a massacre of a fifth of blacks troops and get away. Cavalry charge through mountainous choke+minefield into prepared infantry and crossbowmen, no less.

The story just isnt very solid in those aspects. It does gloss over too many things.

Well, it seemed like the Dwarfs won though a superior degree of magic. I do agree it really does not make sense the Dwarfs had any chance at all.
When the stronger Drows could give Winter Cat a run. But i guess drow slaying crossbow bolts? :smallconfused:

As for why Black could win against Callow. The Calamities. They directly got their fame from the fights there.
Warlock personally killed the Wizard of the West. Captain will shred small armies though attrition in the night.
Assasin, well we have seen how effective it? is. Goodbye officers and mages.
And Black himself has aspects designed to argument an entire army.

[Rydiro]

As for why Black could win against Callow. The Calamities. They directly got their fame from the fights there.
Warlock personally killed the Wizard of the West. Captain will shred small armies though attrition in the night.
Assasin, well we have seen how effective it? is. Goodbye officers and mages.
And Black himself has aspects designed to argument an entire army.I think we agree, the later powercreep in ridiculous Named powers makes armies moot, when warlock can call down meteor strikes to level armies and fortresses. Not to mention cat dropping iceblocks and lakes. Or kairos using a thunderstorm to wipe an army, ...

[druid91]

The author is overall pretty inconsistent with his story vs organization thing. During the first few books organization is king, now story is.
It was never explained how the dwarves could win against drow, who can basically solo armies. And those werent even top tier drow.
Its never explained how black could win a war against callow when hanno alone can turn a loosing fight into a massacre of a fifth of blacks troops and get away. Cavalry charge through mountainous choke+minefield into prepared infantry and crossbowmen, no less.

The story just isnt very solid in those aspects. It does gloss over too many things.

It's always been both in equal measure. Even in the first few books Black is weaving a narrative. It's why he Chose Catherine at all.

Also, because dwarves are themselves ludicrously OP? Or have you forgotten the whole 'dwarves will destroy all of Callow over one drop of dwarvish blood being spilled'? Or the siege engines that shot volcano-balls? Or the lanterns that literally burn gold?

The dwarves are basically an insanely advanced magitech civilization.

[aguaracu]

I'm pretty sure that scribe is assassin and thats not ink on her hands.
Maybe it's a Jekyll and Hyde sort of thing? Assassin is determined to fight the family curse, he will not fall into accountancy! But he keeps having these blackouts, and when he wakes up his hands are all covered in ink...

But, whereas Scribe is difficult to notice or think about, Assassin seems to work through expendable avatars. Malicia can do that as well, but she found that trick in a toy cupboard in the Tower.
The Wandering Bard. Duh duh duh! :elan:


It's more that Black is basically the only person in the setting who seems to really care about competent professionalism instead of story-powered grandstanding.
Well yes, Amadeus is the great institution builder of his generation [1] and the systematic leader of the greatest band of five for a long time. Additionally, when he was training Cat he was consciously training his successor.
But my point was mainly how disappointed I was with the training Heroes received, despite Tariq's presence for decades. This isn't entirely fair on Tariq, he can't train everybody: Hanno and Antigone were tutored in the Titanomachy, Hunter by the Lady of the Lake and Christophe by strange women lying in ponds handing out swords. But I don't think we've seen a student of Tariq's rise to the top tier.
I guess the Above rides most Heroes pretty hard, then discards them. In their short lives they are expected to rely on Providence and doing the right thing; they are definitely not there to plot and build power for themselves (the exact opposite of Villains of course [2]) so there is less strategy involved in being a Hero. Maybe?

Edit: I was particularly thinking of the training in story-fu and name fights, although I suppose that Amadeus's signature is a 'combined arms' approach to everything, including name fights. The Above have thrown a lot of heroes at the Calamities who had no hope of success and Tariq has already admitted his failure to intervene in Callow.

[1] Cordelia and Catherine are perhaps even more ambitious.
[2] Below directly shapes societies by empowering Villains to rule; the Above shapes societies by their teachings, and by slapping down Villains when they pop up?

While we're talking about the organisation of armies, do people here follow the excellent blog by Bret Devereaux? https://acoup.blog/ He's a historian writing about military history and popular culture.
As part of a series on the Battle of Helm's Deep (The Lord of the Rings) he wrote about the connection between societies and the militaries drawn from them:
https://acoup.blog/2020/05/15/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-iii-the-host-of-saruman/
https://acoup.blog/2020/05/22/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-iv-men-of-rohan/
He makes the point that there has to be a fit between relationships in society and in the military for it to work. A 'modern' army grafted onto a society with different relationships is probably a paper army.
That and the discussion here made me think: The legions could be the Roundheads to the highborn's Cavaliers but we don't get to see much of the social changes that would accompany that in Praes. The social, political, philosophical and religious revolutions that drove and were driven by the wars of the three kingdoms and the creation of the Roundheads turned Britain upside down.

[NigelWalmsley]

Its never explained how black could win a war against callow when hanno alone can turn a loosing fight into a massacre of a fifth of blacks troops and get away. Cavalry charge through mountainous choke+minefield into prepared infantry and crossbowmen, no less.

I thought that was actually pretty well-explained, actually. It's a backlash thing. The way Creation is set up, Villains are supposed to eventually lose. So if you keep winning, more powerful (and more specifically-anti-you) heroes get thrown at you. As a result, Black was able to win on pure competence at first, but as he kept winning, the Above put a heavier and heavier hand on the scales. The conversation between Black and Tariq spells out the opposite effect as well: because Pilgrim and Saint kept squashing any villain before they rose, he was able to put a big win on the board in compensation.


So far narrative cruch seems mainly defined by "named stuff you dislike" then. Because as such the Drow did not use ANY of those things.

Depends which time. The first time, they lost because they were weaker. The Dwarves are just a stronger power than everyone else. The second time, they lost because they were relying on individual Mighty (which, yes, not Named, but fall into the same narrative pattern). The general principle is that individual power eventually fails, while institutional power does not.


But Callow is filled with graves that show, that there is a level of power that overwhelms that edge. Some were filled by Cat. Most by Black.

In the short run, yes. But in the long run, if you rely on pure power, eventually someone will come along who's perfectly tuned to beat you. Again, the Dead King says as much to Cat when hosting her in Keter. He could take Calernia. But if he did, some hero would arise to take it back.


And seriously. You call vomiting out hordes, and hordes and hordes, and hordes of undead caution?

Yes. Or at least restraint. And the story says as much:


“Where are the devils, Catherine?” the Intercessor said. “Where are the hosts that darken the skies, and the demons he has kept leashed for centuries? Where are the rituals that poison the land and the sorceries never before seen? I’ll tell you the truth of it.”

She leaned forward, eyes hooded.

“Your alliance is not great enough a threat to warrant the use of any of those,” the Intercessor said. “You do not worry him.”

The Dead King is not relying on overwhelming force. He could bring more firepower to bear. After all, we know from Catherine's conversation with the Herald that the Dwarves take him seriously as an enemy ("The dead will return to the depths soon enough."), and they outstrip the firepower of even the Grand Alliance. You can even see a smaller-scale version of this in the difference between the northern and southern fronts. Fighting the Drow, he can let loose more, because he doesn't need to worry about Above's meddling. Always and everywhere, from the very beginning of his rise, his path has been the path of caution, the path of patience. Because he can afford to wait. He's immortal, and with the Serenity churning out people who will leave behind more bodies for him to work with, his forces only ever grow.


Yes. Proccer's armies are build the way your forced to build an army when combining several semi-independent forces. But they showed no signs of lacking cohesion or leadership in the vale fight.

They showed plenty of signs of it against Catherine.


So it most definitly is the BS explosives that makes the actual difference. Its very easy being more modern, when you have access to modern tools.

And the superior siege. And the superior training. And the superior tactics. And, yes, they have access to more modern resources. That's not BS. You're missing the key distinction between "this is a thing we can do because we have Some Named Guy on our side" and "this is a thing we can do because we are a more sophisticated civilization". Goblin munitions are a thing you can manufacture. That is categorically different from Names, which is very much the point of the story. Black says over and over again that the reason Above's crowd wins is that they get to cheat away any advantages other people have.


I guess the Above rides most Heroes pretty hard, then discards them. In their short lives they are expected to rely on Providence and doing the right thing; they are definitely not there to plot and build power for themselves (the exact opposite of Villains of course [2]) so there is less strategy involved in being a Hero. Maybe?

Yeah. Remember that for the last couple of decades, there haven't been any major villains outside of Callow (exactly where Pilgrim and Saint didn't operate). None of the heroes currently alive have been in any kind of major confrontation, and Above is not really the side of careful preparation.

[uncool]

and Above is not really the side of careful preparation.
To be fair, neither is Below. Preparation, yes. Careful preparation, no.

"When using tigers you don’t have enough time to gloat, when using rats you risk awkwardly running out of gloat before the end: true equilibrium is found in a pit of humble man-eating tapirs, beasts that have never once failed me.”
– Dread Empress Atrocious, later devoured by man-eating tapirs

[Rydiro]

It's always been both in equal measure. Even in the first few books Black is weaving a narrative. It's why he Chose Catherine at all.

Also, because dwarves are themselves ludicrously OP? Or have you forgotten the whole 'dwarves will destroy all of Callow over one drop of dwarvish blood being spilled'? Or the siege engines that shot volcano-balls? Or the lanterns that literally burn gold?

The dwarves are basically an insanely advanced magitech civilization.Its not really explained, just handwaved and it doesn't add up. I don't mind, its well written. If Hanno can take a few riders and kill troops in the thousands, what is the meaning of troops and preparation anyway. There are too many points where its not equal measure. Namely in that fight it is explicitly stated that without Named, procer would have lost all troops and the legions none. So organization did not count one bit. Named were there in equal strength for both sides and it wasnt a clear victory but a phyrric one for the legions. Hannos charge was beyond stupid from a military point of view and worked nontheless, despite previous assertions that stupid actions from named still get them killed. So, organization is useless.

The real reason is of course that story takes precedence over details like these for the author. And thats okay.

As for the dwarves, yes they are strong as a community, but the expedition force had only so many priests/mages to do hax. And even upper-tier mighty can solo mundane armies. They should have been reasonably weak to a coordinated ambush to their mage lines, something that sve nocs cabal was more than capable of. The drow were really only loosing because Cat needed a new flavor of powers.

[tyckspoon]

They should have been reasonably weak to a coordinated ambush to their mage lines,

Highlighted the part that the Drow, at that time, did not do. They were not a functioning society. There was no coordinated response to either Cat or the Dwarves. It is quite possible the Dwarves would have run into a nasty surprise when they started trying to advance on the center of the Drow territory where the real old monsters lived, but by that point the Dwarves would already be holding something like half of the area they wanted.. but then again, they might have just continued reducing the strongholds of individual Mighty one by one while the other Mighty looked on and laughed about how their rivals were too pathetic and worthless to fend off the Dwarves.
Neither Sve Noc nor the really powerful Mighty cared about the lives of 'lesser' Drow enough to respond. Although for Sve Noc, at least, it could be argued that they considered Catherine as the more valuable prize, and were willing to ignore the Dwarves in order to try to bait Catherine into a place where they could get at Winter - after all, once they consumed Winter and solidified their apotheosis, surely they would have power sufficient to deal with the Dwarves. (They probably were not wrong.)

[McNum]

I should have seen that coming. We had hints that undead who are aware are fit enough to stand trial.

And yet I didn't see this coming at all. But that is how you get two death sentences to work. You raise them and kill them again.

I do worry that if the Red Axe becomes undead, doesn't that mean the Dead King has a claim on her? Or will Cat do some Night trickery that is like but not completely identical to, standard necromancy?

[Tvtyrant]

I should have seen that coming. We had hints that undead who are aware are fit enough to stand trial.

And yet I didn't see this coming at all. But that is how you get two death sentences to work. You raise them and kill them again.

I do worry that if the Red Axe becomes undead, doesn't that mean the Dead King has a claim on her? Or will Cat do some Night trickery that is like but not completely identical to, standard necromancy?

I thought she stole the resurrection power from Tariq to raise his corpse. So I'm guessing stolen Name power.

[NigelWalmsley]

I thought she stole the resurrection power from Tariq to raise his corpse. So I'm guessing stolen Name power.

I'm pretty sure that was a one-time deal. Cat's stolen tricks seem to be fire-and-forget. I expect she's probably just going to be puppeting the corpse via Night, and that's either sufficiently not necromancy to not be concerned about the Dead King, or the Dead King's power is limited enough that him grabbing a random zombie in the middle of Procer isn't a real concern. Which seems semi-likely. There are other necromancer villains, and they don't seem concerned about randomly getting their minions stolen.

[tyckspoon]

I do worry that if the Red Axe becomes undead, doesn't that mean the Dead King has a claim on her? Or will Cat do some Night trickery that is like but not completely identical to, standard necromancy?

I don't think we've seen the Dead King just randomly claim an undead; he's always had an agent or existing undead of his on the scene to work through. Should he manage to infiltrate the security around the Red Axe and gain access to her after being revived he could almost certainly hijack the body, tho.

But.. I doubt that would do him much good. Catherine isn't going to raise Red Axe as a Revenant-grade creature if she can help it - there's no reason to leave her Aspects and Name strength intact. She just has to be conscious enough to stand up before the Highest Assembly and tell them "Yes, I tried to kill him, and I'd do it again." so they can sentence her to destruction under Procer's laws. Catherine will probably extract her Aspects before/while raising her, if possible.

..it would be wonderfully ironic of Red Axe's Aspect/trait/whatever that makes her immune to magical enchantment and deception got turned into an artifact that played a key role in solving some of Catherine's more pressing problems.

[NigelWalmsley]

Cat doesn't have to raise her at all. She could just puppet the body around. Among the whole of the assembly, there's going to be all of one person who isn't in on the ruse and ever met the Axe at all.

[Forum Explorer]

I should have seen that coming. We had hints that undead who are aware are fit enough to stand trial.

And yet I didn't see this coming at all. But that is how you get two death sentences to work. You raise them and kill them again.

I do worry that if the Red Axe becomes undead, doesn't that mean the Dead King has a claim on her? Or will Cat do some Night trickery that is like but not completely identical to, standard necromancy?

That's hilarious, and I didn't see that coming. I feel like this idea comes from Cat's exposure to Praes who would totally raise someone as an undead so they can experience every single death sentence they've earned.

No, I don't think the Dead King automatically has a claim on any undead. If an agent of his gets access to an undead, he can probably hijack them without too much difficulty, but I don't think that would matter for the Red Axe. She'll still be imprisoned and bound, so hijacking them would give him a Reverant that's almost guaranteed to be destroyed immediately anyways. Seems like a waste of resources to me.

[lord_khaine]

Depends which time. The first time, they lost because they were weaker. The Dwarves are just a stronger power than everyone else. The second time, they lost because they were relying on individual Mighty (which, yes, not Named, but fall into the same narrative pattern). The general principle is that individual power eventually fails, while institutional power does not.


No. The second time they also lost because the Dwarfes were a stronger power.
Power is power. If you lose its because you dont have enough of it. In this case the initial solitary Mighty were not enough to handle focused dwarfen magitech.


In the short run, yes. But in the long run, if you rely on pure power, eventually someone will come along who's perfectly tuned to beat you. Again, the Dead King says as much to Cat when hosting her in Keter. He could take Calernia. But if he did, some hero would arise to take it back.

That goes for any sort of power. No matter what you go for, there will be a counter. That also applies to institutional power.


The Dead King is not relying on overwhelming force. He could bring more firepower to bear. After all, we know from Catherine's conversation with the Herald that the Dwarves take him seriously as an enemy ("The dead will return to the depths soon enough."), and they outstrip the firepower of even the Grand Alliance. You can even see a smaller-scale version of this in the difference between the northern and southern fronts. Fighting the Drow, he can let loose more, because he doesn't need to worry about Above's meddling. Always and everywhere, from the very beginning of his rise, his path has been the path of caution, the path of patience. Because he can afford to wait. He's immortal, and with the Serenity churning out people who will leave behind more bodies for him to work with, his forces only ever grow.

Yeah.. and no this does not do anything to disprove that the Dead King is relying on overwhelming force. Or even have anything to do with it.
Waves and waves and waves of Undeads already does the job of winning for him. He is already winning though overwhelming force. He dont need to use more of it.


They showed plenty of signs of it against Catherine.

Another fight, another situation.


And the superior siege. And the superior training. And the superior tactics. And, yes, they have access to more modern resources. That's not BS. You're missing the key distinction between "this is a thing we can do because we have Some Named Guy on our side" and "this is a thing we can do because we are a more sophisticated civilization". Goblin munitions are a thing you can manufacture. That is categorically different from Names, which is very much the point of the story. Black says over and over again that the reason Above's crowd wins is that they get to cheat away any advantages other people have.

Things that are not actually that superior. Because as such its funny we are even having this conversation. When Praes is the most crutch dependent army!
Proccer is the least. They rely on massed human regiments. Thats it. Sometimes heroes are along. And thats nice. But its not something thats intergrated into their forces.
The heroes act as independent support. Proccer is the least name dependent army. It has directly been said a few times.

Praes meanwhile is likely the most cructh dependent army. We got the awesome power of warlock, who is a walking army-killer, and for a time were likely the strongest mage on the continent.
We have Black, who directly has 2 Aspects dedicated to empower the army he leads.
And we got impossible to replicate, BS magical explosives. Thats 3 cruches, 2 of whom litteraly are "Some Named Guy".
While the last is something only Goblings can manufacture. When noone else has gunpowder, despite rich alchemical traditions, then i call BS on that.
As for Black, he is likely the biggest hipocrite in the story. i ABSOLUTELY dont want to hear anything about cheating from him.
And so, i cant think of cases where Praes has done that well denied their crutches. So i dont think their training is as superior as you make it.

[HolyDraconus]

Cat doesn't have to raise her at all. She could just puppet the body around. Among the whole of the assembly, there's going to be all of one person who isn't in on the ruse and ever met the Axe at all.

couldn't it be a case of how Zombie 2(I think) hasn't been taken over and actually displays intelligence and jealously? Or do we count that as Winter's leftovers?

[Mith]

couldn't it be a case of how Zombie 2(I think) hasn't been taken over and actually displays intelligence and jealously? Or do we count that as Winter's leftovers?

I suspect that is Winter power. However, it's been two years for the Sisters to consolidate their power, so I wonder if that would have changed how Night approaches necromancy. Especially since it already takes Secrets.

While I am sure there are limits to what can be retained by Night, could Cat sacrifice Aspect artefacts to add knowledge to Night? I could see some things like Forgive being out of the domain of the Sisters, but the Red Axe's mage killer could be useful for the drow army as a whole.

Kill one Hero, and replicate their power across an entire front.

[NigelWalmsley]

That's hilarious, and I didn't see that coming. I feel like this idea comes from Cat's exposure to Praes who would totally raise someone as an undead so they can experience every single death sentence they've earned.

No, I don't think the Dead King automatically has a claim on any undead. If an agent of his gets access to an undead, he can probably hijack them without too much difficulty, but I don't think that would matter for the Red Axe. She'll still be imprisoned and bound, so hijacking them would give him a Reverant that's almost guaranteed to be destroyed immediately anyways. Seems like a waste of resources to me.

It's a Revenant that's guaranteed to be destroyed, but right in the middle of the Highest Assembly. It's not a military threat, but I'm sure giving the Dead King the opportunity to say whatever he wants to all the Princes of Procer, with them potentially not knowing it's him, in a situation that's politically sensitive to begin with, would go at least pretty badly. That said, it's an outside risk.


That goes for any sort of power. No matter what you go for, there will be a counter. That also applies to institutional power.

No, it doesn't. At least, not inherently, the way it does with Names.


Waves and waves and waves of Undeads already does the job of winning for him. He is already winning though overwhelming force. He dont need to use more of it.

So? If he's about overwhelming force, why not use even more force to win faster? If his modus operandi is "Crush Them!", he has no reason to hold back. In fact, he has an incentive to end things as quickly as possible. The reason he's not is because he things "narrative shenanigans from pushing too hard" is a greater threat than anything the Grand Alliance can actually do.


We got the awesome power of warlock, who is a walking army-killer, and for a time were likely the strongest mage on the continent.

Who largely does not get committed to the field. Because Black holds him in reserve for countering enemy named. In the Vales, he didn't win the fight on his own, he waited to counter the enemy Named.


And we got impossible to replicate, BS magical explosives. Thats 3 cruches, 2 of whom litteraly are "Some Named Guy".

Again, the explosives are not a crutch. Nor are they impossible to replicate. They're technology. They're technology other people don't have, but that's not remotely the same as Named.


When noone else has gunpowder, despite rich alchemical traditions, then i call BS on that.

You understand that there was a first nation to develop gunpowder in actual history, right? It turns out that gave them some advantages.


And so, i cant think of cases where Praes has done that well denied their crutches. So i dont think their training is as superior as you make it.

The Legions regularly do well without Black or Warlock present.

[druid91]

No. The second time they also lost because the Dwarfes were a stronger power.
Power is power. If you lose its because you dont have enough of it. In this case the initial solitary Mighty were not enough to handle focused dwarfen magitech.



That goes for any sort of power. No matter what you go for, there will be a counter. That also applies to institutional power.



Yeah.. and no this does not do anything to disprove that the Dead King is relying on overwhelming force. Or even have anything to do with it.
Waves and waves and waves of Undeads already does the job of winning for him. He is already winning though overwhelming force. He dont need to use more of it.



Another fight, another situation.



Things that are not actually that superior. Because as such its funny we are even having this conversation. When Praes is the most crutch dependent army!
Proccer is the least. They rely on massed human regiments. Thats it. Sometimes heroes are along. And thats nice. But its not something thats intergrated into their forces.
The heroes act as independent support. Proccer is the least name dependent army. It has directly been said a few times.

Praes meanwhile is likely the most cructh dependent army. We got the awesome power of warlock, who is a walking army-killer, and for a time were likely the strongest mage on the continent.
We have Black, who directly has 2 Aspects dedicated to empower the army he leads.
And we got impossible to replicate, BS magical explosives. Thats 3 cruches, 2 of whom litteraly are "Some Named Guy".
While the last is something only Goblings can manufacture. When noone else has gunpowder, despite rich alchemical traditions, then i call BS on that.
As for Black, he is likely the biggest hipocrite in the story. i ABSOLUTELY dont want to hear anything about cheating from him.
And so, i cant think of cases where Praes has done that well denied their crutches. So i dont think their training is as superior as you make it.

The legions regularly fight without either Warlock or Black. Even in the story itself.

I'm not sure why you're pressed about the Goblin Munitions. They explain why those aren't made by anyone but goblins, and it's because the Goblins use devils as ingredients. Do you think Good Nations are going to let you get away with summoning the legions of hell with the excuse 'But I wanted to chop them up and make them into explosives! Honest!'

Black is a lot of things, but a Hypocrite is not one of them.

Praes did well rather consistently throughout the books. Keeping in mind of course, that Proceran strategy is entirely dependent upon the Auger, making it, while directly speaking less reliant, from a top down view more reliant on named power than anyone but Cat.

[lord_khaine]

No, it doesn't. At least, not inherently, the way it does with Names.

Sure it does. Source hardly matters there.


So? If he's about overwhelming force, why not use even more force to win faster? If his modus operandi is "Crush Them!", he has no reason to hold back. In fact, he has an incentive to end things as quickly as possible. The reason he's not is because he things "narrative shenanigans from pushing too hard" is a greater threat than anything the Grand Alliance can actually do.

No its because its prudent to have stuff in reserve. He is already winning. He has no reason to throw more stuff away on this than he has to.


Who largely does not get committed to the field. Because Black holds him in reserve for countering enemy named. In the Vales, he didn't win the fight on his own, he waited to counter the enemy Named.

Who is commited enough to the field to have earned his nickname of "soverign of red skies".
In the Vales, Hanno had specifically pulled the Witch of the West out to be able to counter him.


Again, the explosives are not a crutch. Nor are they impossible to replicate. They're technology. They're technology other people don't have, but that's not remotely the same as Named.

They are explicitly a crutch. If they are not a crutch, nothing is.
They are a vital thing the entire operations of the legions of terror more or less runs on. If someone bombs goblings, or the bombs run out, it affects the way the legions operate.
If the named vanishes meanwhile, the armies of Proccer will not change its working.

And the are absolutely not a technology. They are a plot device. That in fact are impossible to replicate.
We have been told all such attempts end in "and then it exploded".


You understand that there was a first nation to develop gunpowder in actual history, right? It turns out that gave them some advantages.

Thats wrong. The early gunpower weapons were kinda crappy. And did not give a meaningful advantage.
Certainly not something that in any way can be compared to magical explosives.


The Legions regularly do well without Black or Warlock present.

Yes they do. Because they still have their 3rd cruch. BS explosives.
Also i dont count Black as being absent if his pupil are present.


The legions regularly fight without either Warlock or Black. Even in the story itself.

I'm not sure why you're pressed about the Goblin Munitions. They explain why those aren't made by anyone but goblins, and it's because the Goblins use devils as ingredients. Do you think Good Nations are going to let you get away with summoning the legions of hell with the excuse 'But I wanted to chop them up and make them into explosives! Honest!'


Yeah they do often fight without Warlock or Black. But not without Gobling sappers.
It has directly been a point a few times, how big a problem were when munition supplies began to run low.
And so if it was just because devils are an ingredient, then Stygium should be mass producing them. Or that neutral capitalism town.

Else Gobling munition mostly annoy me. I do genuinly think they are BS in a fantasy world like this.
But i can mostly overlook it, because its extremely obvious that the author is drawing heavy inspiration from the Malazan Empire books.
Where alchemical munitions have a central part. But what mostly triggers me is someone having the audacity to claim Proccer is relying on a "cruch",
then the faction they hold up as a shinning example relies on impossible to replicate, modern technology. In a world where normal technological progress is choked.


Black is a lot of things, but a Hypocrite is not one of them.

How can the Child-killer Black be anything but a hypocrite? :smallconfused:
He complains about the unfair advantages Above gets. While killing children who might become heroes that can threaten him.


Praes did well rather consistently throughout the books. Keeping in mind of course, that Proceran strategy is entirely dependent upon the Auger, making it, while directly speaking less reliant, from a top down view more reliant on named power than anyone but Cat.

I would like to contest the idea that Proceran strategy is dependent or reliant on the Auger.
Klaus and Cordelia already had a decent reputation before the Auger was discovered. And we can see she didnt do anything in either the Vale fight.
Or the Crusade into Callow. I think its pretty clear that its very random when she can see something or not. And so its more or less impossible to be reliant on her.

I think her main contribution has been to keep Cordelia or Klaus from just getting killed outright by Assasin.

[Fable Wright]

While the last is something only Goblings can manufacture. When noone else has gunpowder, despite rich alchemical traditions, then i call BS on that.

For the record, on a reread, I noticed that the Goblins received a Red Letter early on in the story. For "experimenting with powders." It's pretty clear that they're working around the limitations that the gnomes set, and also a reason no one else has gunpowder for their rich alchemical traditions.



They are explicitly a crutch. If they are not a crutch, nothing is.
They are a vital thing the entire operations of the legions of terror more or less runs on. If someone bombs goblings, or the bombs run out, it affects the way the legions operate.
If the named vanishes meanwhile, the armies of Proccer will not change its working.

So if the fundamental nature of reality changes, Procer will not be affected. This is a brilliant argument.

Procer's army relies very heavily on the crutch of the nobility. If the nobility vanished overnight, the First Prince has no direct authority over peasant levies, and no state-wide apparatus to collect taxes. Also, of course, there's the fact that they are heavily reliant on a crutch of a First Prince, because without one, there is no unified army—the nobles will immediately descend to infighting. All it takes is one assassin against an unNamed ruler and the entire army falls apart. At least Old Callow could be plug-and-play with the Heroes they relied on.

On that note, I'd rather argue that Old Callow would be the most crutch-dependent army, being reliant on both Named and Callow's Knights in addition to masses of untrained conscripts. No other nation has the rune-carved full plate, for it is a plot device. Procer doesn't use heroes in their army, because plot device, despite them being an obviously efficient force multiplier.



And the are absolutely not a technology. They are a plot device. That in fact are impossible to replicate.
We have been told all such attempts end in "and then it exploded".

Let's think for a moment of the Colonial period of our world. When Conquistadors used guns that couldn't be replicated by native populations and slaughtered everyone involved. Where the largest and most powerful nation in the world, China, got carved up into 'spheres of influence' because of technology that kept blowing up when they tried to replicate it.

Guns, we must conclude, are plot devices.

Let's not even get into the Roman Legions and how they worked. Those dudes using advanced technology like siege engines on local populations who didn't have a technology budget? Come on, pure plot device.

Oh, and the mongols. We're not even talking about how one plot device let the Mongols take over. Yeah, no, basically everyone had horses and bows at that point, and yet only the Mongols were really able to combine them? Pure, unmitigated bologna. Devs, this is completely unrealistic.

We're not even going to talk about how 13 ships were able to be beat the entire Japanese armada at the height of their power by a complete amateur at naval warfare who never lost a ship in his entire career. The less that's said about Admiral Yi and his obvious plot armor, the better.

[tyckspoon]

I'm not sure why you're pressed about the Goblin Munitions. They explain why those aren't made by anyone but goblins, and it's because the Goblins use devils as ingredients. Do you think Good Nations are going to let you get away with summoning the legions of hell with the excuse 'But I wanted to chop them up and make them into explosives! Honest!'


Only the goblinfire, as I recall - it's probably what gives it that ability to burn/feed on magic. Catherine stopped using it when she discovered that little factoid. The sharpers and flashbangs do not, so far, appear to be anything other than good chemistry and engineering. They probably could be replicated, if some other nation was dedicated to doing so; I'm sure substances that explode or burn rapidly with a blinding light are not unknown to the alchemically-inclined community of Calernia. But there is a rather large distance between knowing that there are substances that do this, and turning them into a weapon that is 1: stable enough to be transported in an army and carried by a soldier without going off unintentionally, 2: can still be triggered reliably when they need to, 3: can be manufactured economically enough to outfit armies with them, and finally 4: can fit into a container or delivery device that both contains enough active component to be useful and is still small enough to reasonably be usable by infantry.

Also I could speculate that 'all attempts to replicate goblin munitions have ended up in exploding the researchers' might be a nod toward something sabotaging them, and not just because the very nature of the weapons requires experimenting with things that make lab accidents very easy. The goblins are very jealous of their secrets and already pretty good at cloak-and-dagger stuff, and they might be supported by Praes' top-class spy network. Black would have a strong interest in maintaining the tactical advantages the Legions get from being the only army with munitions support, and we already know they're not at all shy about arranging 'accidents' or straight out murdering people they consider to be harming Praes' interests.

[InvisibleBison]

Only the goblinfire, as I recall - it's probably what gives it that ability to burn/feed on magic.

No, regular munitions are made from devils. Goblinfire is made from demons.

[tyckspoon]

No, regular munitions are made from devils. Goblinfire is made from demons.

Huh. Went searching for the quote reference, this appears to be correct. I only remembered the Goblinfire mention. Well, yes, that would provide another explanation why nobody but the Goblins has this stuff - you need to be willing and able to bind devils, you need to know how to turn devil bits into bombs, and you need the reckless disregard for safety to do so on an industrial level.

[aguaracu]

I thought that was actually pretty well-explained, actually. It's a backlash thing. The way Creation is set up, Villains are supposed to eventually lose. So if you keep winning, more powerful (and more specifically-anti-you) heroes get thrown at you. As a result, Black was able to win on pure competence at first, but as he kept winning, the Above put a heavier and heavier hand on the scales. The conversation between Black and Tariq spells out the opposite effect as well: because Pilgrim and Saint kept squashing any villain before they rose, he was able to put a big win on the board in compensation.
--SNIP--
Yeah. Remember that for the last couple of decades, there haven't been any major villains outside of Callow (exactly where Pilgrim and Saint didn't operate). None of the heroes currently alive have been in any kind of major confrontation, and Above is not really the side of careful preparation.
For the last 20 years Procerans have been killed in droves because half of Procer's royalty was in the pay of a Villain - and those that weren't got assassinated by Assassin, another Villain.
So, while it's nice that the Barrow Botherer got eviscerated and the Dogbreath Mutilator got put down (thus saving a couple of small villages), it's more than a little disappointing that Providence couldn't even arrange for a chance meeting between Assassin and the Saint of Swords.

I like both Tariq and Laurence personally but the truth is that Good has been losing badly on the surface of Calernia for decades (including in Procer), and millions have died as a result. The people turning this around were Cordelia and Agnes, at least until Alaya and Catherine invited the Dead King to the slaughter.
Writing this makes me appreciate why Frederic is such a loyal member of Team Cordelia.

The Wandering Bard had another spin on it though (of course she did :-). She argued that the Villains were winning through the dark arts of good governance and constructive effort; which was good news in the long term:
https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2016/10/12/heroic-interlude-prise-au-fer/
“These are some of the most successful villains in the history of the Empire,” she said. “And they became that by going through the motions of being Good.”
...
“Day by day,” she said. “Year by year, century by century – we’re making Creation a better place. Even the bottom of the barrel is pulled up when you hoist the whole thing.”




It's always been both in equal measure. Even in the first few books Black is weaving a narrative. It's why he Chose Catherine at all.

Also, because dwarves are themselves ludicrously OP? Or have you forgotten the whole 'dwarves will destroy all of Callow over one drop of dwarvish blood being spilled'? Or the siege engines that shot volcano-balls? Or the lanterns that literally burn gold?

The dwarves are basically an insanely advanced magitech civilization.
Agreed on both points. Amadeus put up with an incredible amount of trouble from Catherine because a Callowan Villain ruling Callow could permanently flip Callow's character and stories to Below, a danger Tariq recognised when he saw Catherine.
On the dwarves I would add that, for example, it took the Levantines a few days to come up with their first counter to the Drow and start fighting back. The dwarves had the measure of the Drow several thousand years ago and have spent the lull in the war expanding their kingdom, improving their magitech and refining their tactics (Amadeus eat your heart out). The Drow spent that time eating each other in the dark.


Aww, now I want to meet the Affable Burglar and the Forgetful Librarian.

Good on Indrani for admitting that the Silver Huntress can shoot Unravellers when she can't.

Catherine is still the bad idea fairy, the Red Axe gambit shows hilariously bad judgement IMHO.

So some of the undead can stroll across the lake bed but others can't? The living can march quicker than the dead in general or only through the Twilight? It's still not clear how logistics work for any and all of the Dead King's forces.
Did Nessie intentionally create a Death Star for the coalition to attack or does he think the bridge is a boring but useful piece of civic infrastructure?

[NigelWalmsley]

For the last 20 years Procerans have been killed in droves because half of Procer's royalty was in the pay of a Villain - and those that weren't got assassinated by Assassin, another Villain.

They weren't really "in the pay of" Malicia. She had to use cutouts and plausible deniability to get them to take the money, and they could have stopped if they wanted to. The issue was, fundamentally, that Procer was entirely willing to tear itself apart if given the opportunity.


So some of the undead can stroll across the lake bed but others can't? The living can march quicker than the dead in general or only through the Twilight? It's still not clear how logistics work for any and all of the Dead King's forces.

Basically, the Dead King has his crappy horde zombies (Bones), which have crappy gear, and they can march across the lake bed because their gear is crappy enough not to suffer much from water damage. But he also has elite troops (Binds), which have better gear, and have to go over the lake. Normally they go by turtle ship, which is low-volume and can be sunk by such measures as Unravelers or throwing the Mirror Knight at one. So he's building a bridge so they can march over in force.

At least, that's my recollection from the chapter where the bridge was first mentioned.

Twilight is like Cat's fae gates from when she had Winter, they have some kind of dimension magic that lets you cover a large real-world distance in a shorter time. And the Dead King's forces can't enter Twilight.

[tyckspoon]

Charlatan IV is up in Extra Chapters, btw, if you haven't thought to look.

And of course Olivier is the Rogue Sorcerer, who came into his Name when he found it necessary to put down his own brother.. well, mostly. He couldn't find it in himself to actually kill him. So we have a Hero who is driven by his own guilt over not being quite good *enough*, who thinks everything could have been avoided if he'd just made slightly better choices, and whose formative experiences involve herding cats to try to find good solutions for everybody until somebody regrettably has to be put down because they just won't play nice with the plan.. no wonder he works with Cat and the Practical Evil agenda so well. Her vision for reigning in the extremes of supernaturally-powered bad behavior and providing a framework for Named to live in relatively peace with the non-Named community is basically his whole Role, and they have similar frustrations about getting the people they're trying to lead to stop effing it up.

[Forum Explorer]

Charlatan IV is up in Extra Chapters, btw, if you haven't thought to look.

And of course Olivier is the Rogue Sorcerer, who came into his Name when he found it necessary to put down his own brother.. well, mostly. He couldn't find it in himself to actually kill him. So we have a Hero who is driven by his own guilt over not being quite good *enough*, who thinks everything could have been avoided if he'd just made slightly better choices, and whose formative experiences involve herding cats to try to find good solutions for everybody until somebody regrettably has to be put down because they just won't play nice with the plan.. no wonder he works with Cat and the Practical Evil agenda so well. Her vision for reigning in the extremes of supernaturally-powered bad behavior and providing a framework for Named to live in relatively peace with the non-Named community is basically his whole Role, and they have similar frustrations about getting the people they're trying to lead to stop effing it up.

The first comment really nails the tragedy of Oliver's story the most. Oliver didn't really make some obvious mistake that led to disaster or trusted the wrong person. I mean, it basically comes down to is that he didn't take his brother fully under his wing and raise him himself. Which I feel is a pretty high expectation for someone to put on himself.

[Eurus]

Yeah, agreed. Are there things that he could have done differently and maybe averted the disaster? Sure, probably, with the benefit of hindsight. And of course that's a possibility that will always bother him. But he didn't do anything ragingly stupid or incredibly unethical, he was just a relatively normal dude trying to balance personal fulfillment and responsibility in tough circumstances. It's nice to see a Hero that's actually a decent person (Hanno's still borderline, in my book. :P).

[HolyDraconus]

another chapter is out >.>

[Mith]

another chapter is out >.>

Didn't see this to respond prior to today's chapter.

On that note: If I were writing this, I would use the next chapter as an epilogue to see what was happening with Praes, the Proceran plot, and Mirror Knight joining with the Pilgrim and end the book. Then you have a book that's really the gathering storm before the final push. The next book is the final assault to push back the dead, with bands of 5 taking on the various sub plots. Perhaps Cat uses Twilight like Gandalf with Shadowfax to keep the groups coordinated.

[Noldo]

Didn't see this to respond prior to today's chapter.

On that note: If I were writing this, I would use the next chapter as an epilogue to see what was happening with Praes, the Proceran plot, and Mirror Knight joining with the Pilgrim and end the book. Then you have a book that's really the gathering storm before the final push. The next book is the final assault to push back the dead, with bands of 5 taking on the various sub plots. Perhaps Cat uses Twilight like Gandalf with Shadowfax to keep the groups coordinated.

Based on writer’s prior comments this is already the final book although based on size of the prior books we should be quite close to midpoint in this book so this is the breather between the early pivot (around Arsenal) and final assault. Interesting to see if we will be served another time skip.

[tyckspoon]

Based on writer’s prior comments this is already the final book although based on size of the prior books we should be quite close to midpoint in this book so this is the breather between the early pivot (around Arsenal) and final assault. Interesting to see if we will be served another time skip.

We'll cut through the preparation and travel time to the Hainaut offensive, would be my bet, possibly with a couple more Interlude chapters to fill the time. A look in on what happens with Red Axe in Procer or what's going on with Praes, Black, Ranger, and the pretender Dread Empress (..completely forgot what name she assumed. The High Lady in charge of that one Praes city that didn't get completely exploded yet.)

[Mith]

Based on writer’s prior comments this is already the final book although based on size of the prior books we should be quite close to midpoint in this book so this is the breather between the early pivot (around Arsenal) and final assault. Interesting to see if we will be served another time skip.


We'll cut through the preparation and travel time to the Hainaut offensive, would be my bet, possibly with a couple more Interlude chapters to fill the time. A look in on what happens with Red Axe in Procer or what's going on with Praes, Black, Ranger, and the pretender Dread Empress (..completely forgot what name she assumed. The High Lady in charge of that one Praes city that didn't get completely exploded yet.)

I am aware yes.

It's more that this feels like a good breakpoint for a book to end, and then use the time skip to the Proceran trial of the Red Axe as a prologue.

[-D-]

What is Rapacious Troubadour about? Is it rape? He seems very... predatory.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

What is Rapacious Troubadour about? Is it rape? He seems very... predatory.

"Rapacious" in this case likely means hunger/greed, both for power/influence and for the souls of his victims.

[Forum Explorer]

What is Rapacious Troubadour about? Is it rape? He seems very... predatory.

I think he eats the souls of his victims.

[Rydiro]

Does anyone know why cat feels guilty for hakrams injuries? I mean its not like she intended for him to be crippled.

[Tvtyrant]

Does anyone know why cat feels guilty for hakrams injuries? I mean its not like she intended for him to be crippled.

She sent him off to babysit Mirror Knight and he was crippled while in the safest place in the world. Not to mention survivors guilt over her dying and coming back largely unharmed several times and her best friend becoming more and more ruined over time, he is lack hand for a reason.

[Rydiro]

She sent him off to babysit Mirror Knight and he was crippled while in the safest place in the world. Not to mention survivors guilt over her dying and coming back largely unharmed several times and her best friend becoming more and more ruined over time, he is lack hand for a reason.Sure, but thats what Commanders do, they send people into the fight. She even fought herself. Really, hakram would have been insulted if she had kept him in safety.
And unlike other times, this was not a battle for vanity nor glory nor petty revenge, it was a defense against serious attackers.

[MammonAzrael]

Does anyone know why cat feels guilty for hakrams injuries? I mean its not like she intended for him to be crippled.

Do you remember Cat playing Affray with the Wandering Bard (Interludes Set Them Up (https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2020/04/21/interlude-set-them-up/) and Knock Them Down (https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/interlude-knock-them-down/))? Cat placed Hakram in the affray revolving around Severance, conceded the affray to WB after the Fae were about to break in and tried to save Hakram, but WB played out the Maddened Keeper, doubling down on the affray and turning Hakram's retrieval into triage. Cat feels guilty because she put Hakram in that position. He was a pawn in her game against WB (OK, probably more of a Rook, but still).


Sure, but thats what Commanders do, they send people into the fight. She even fought herself. Really, hakram would have been insulted if she had kept him in safety.
And unlike other times, this was not a battle for vanity nor glory nor petty revenge, it was a defense against serious attackers.

And since when does logic have anything to do with feeling guilty and blaming yourself for a loved one's suffering? :smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On one hand, I am deeply saddened by Robber's ageing. On the other, it'd be nice if at least one of Cat's friends manages to die of old age instead of warfare and/or assassination.

Grey Wolf

[The Glyphstone]

If Hakram loses Stand, what might his Name create in its place that better suits his new support role?

[Tvtyrant]

Sure, but thats what Commanders do, they send people into the fight. She even fought herself. Really, hakram would have been insulted if she had kept him in safety.
And unlike other times, this was not a battle for vanity nor glory nor petty revenge, it was a defense against serious attackers.

Thank goodness they are ants lacking in personal affections and not people then, eh? Cat's whole worldview is about her feelings, it's why she is set on punishing Akua instead of seducing/forgiving her and why she wants the common people to do better out of this instead of being satisfied just winning.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If Hakram loses Stand, what might his Name create in its place that better suits his new support role?


Isn't the whole point here that he's hoping to guilt Cat into strengthening it back up so he can use it to support himself in combat? That's the kind of foreshadowing that should work, too, so I'd imagine that, if antyhing, he's going to get ghost limbs from it.

GW

[Tvtyrant]

Isn't the whole point here that he's hoping to guilt Cat into strengthening it back up so he can use it to support himself in combat? That's the kind of foreshadowing that should work, too, so I'd imagine that, if antyhing, he's going to get ghost limbs from it.

GW

Yeah I think part of it is she doesn't want him to be in combat anymore, which is subconsciously blocking him from recovering. They could make a story about him coming back with all ghost limbs driven by his devotion to her, but she has to really believe/want it.

[aguaracu]

Sure, but thats what Commanders do, they send people into the fight. She even fought herself. Really, hakram would have been insulted if she had kept him in safety.
It's what commanders do. It's what story weavers do. It's not what the leader of a Band of Five does. Catherine spends that scene lecturing the Bard on the subject while the latter sneers at her naivety.
And yes, Hakram wants to be on the frontline, particularly when the odds are desperate.


On one hand, I am deeply saddened by Robber's ageing. On the other, it'd be nice if at least one of Cat's friends manages to die of old age instead of warfare and/or assassination.
Observation: The only survivors out of the frontliners who were part of Catherine's circle at War College have a Name or are an Ogre - apart from Robber. This is despite him taking insane risks: playing with devils at Marchford, infiltrating Liesse - twice, ambushing the Binders etc.

Observation: Robber is visibly ageing.

Deduction: Robber must have a Name and a Story to have survived as he does but he cannot be a Villain; so logic compels us to admit that he must be a Hero. He obviously needs to keep this quiet for the sake of his reputation.

[Forum Explorer]

It's what commanders do. It's what story weavers do. It's not what the leader of a Band of Five does. Catherine spends that scene lecturing the Bard on the subject while the latter sneers at her naivety.
And yes, Hakram wants to be on the frontline, particularly when the odds are desperate.


Observation: The only survivors out of the frontliners who were part of Catherine's circle at War College have a Name or are an Ogre - apart from Robber. This is despite him taking insane risks: playing with devils at Marchford, infiltrating Liesse - twice, ambushing the Binders etc.

Observation: Robber is visibly ageing.

Deduction: Robber must have a Name and a Story to have survived as he does but he cannot be a Villain; so logic compels us to admit that he must be a Hero. He obviously needs to keep this quiet for the sake of his reputation.

Brilliant. He doesn't even hide it. He's the Goblin Robber.

[tyckspoon]

Deduction: Robber must have a Name and a Story to have survived as he does but he cannot be a Villain; so logic compels us to admit that he must be a Hero. He obviously needs to keep this quiet for the sake of his reputation.

What, he can't be a Goblin Hero? Going on the kinds of stories and acts his culture values he can absolutely be a Hero.. it's just a Goblin Hero would probably be considered a Villain in any other part of Calernia.

But part of the culture he would be exemplifying is 'hide stuff from the Matrons so they don't kill you for being too powerful', so.. I guess that still works?

[Tvtyrant]

What, he can't be a Goblin Hero? Going on the kinds of stories and acts his culture values he can absolutely be a Hero.. it's just a Goblin Hero would probably be considered a Villain in any other part of Calernia.

But part of the culture he would be exemplifying is 'hide stuff from the Matrons so they don't kill you for being too powerful', so.. I guess that still works?

They have implied that Names can change from hero to villain or otherwise based on circumstances. The various Independence names are shady at best when their country is fighting their independence wars, but if they own the country they would be heroes. Likewise the White Knight would probably be a Villain if conquering a country but a hero defending the system imposed by the conquerer (see Grey Pilgrim flashback previously.)

[Mith]

What, he can't be a Goblin Hero? Going on the kinds of stories and acts his culture values he can absolutely be a Hero.. it's just a Goblin Hero would probably be considered a Villain in any other part of Calernia.

But part of the culture he would be exemplifying is 'hide stuff from the Matrons so they don't kill you for being too powerful', so.. I guess that still works?

Further more, he has always been described as rather soft hearted by Goblin standards. At least, I have always read his perspective of "people died who he didn't care for much" when it comes to his soldiers as him trying to numb himself to his own grief over losing soldiers.

I am glad that Cat brought up the idea that the Sisters expand outside the Drow. From what we know of the Tenants of Night (at least how they are evolving now), I am not sure if they really are super Drow specific outside the idea of there are different rules for outsiders and insiders. Then again, I don't know what conflicts would arise for the Sisters to expand like that.

[NigelWalmsley]

They have implied that Names can change from hero to villain or otherwise based on circumstances. The various Independence names are shady at best when their country is fighting their independence wars, but if they own the country they would be heroes. Likewise the White Knight would probably be a Villain if conquering a country but a hero defending the system imposed by the conquerer (see Grey Pilgrim flashback previously.)

I don't think that's quite correct. There are definitely some names that are always Heroes or always Villains. There's not going to be a Hero Dread Emperor or a Villain White Knight. But there are also names that are either morally ambiguous (Archer) or can be claimed by either Heroes or Villains (in just this last chapter, we discovered that the current Apprentice is a Hero).

Also, your specific example definitely seems suspect. In the flashback, the White Knight is calling on angels. Villains don't get to do that.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't think that's quite correct. There are definitely some names that are always Heroes or always Villains. There's not going to be a Hero Dread Emperor or a Villain White Knight. But there are also names that are either morally ambiguous (Archer) or can be claimed by either Heroes or Villains (in just this last chapter, we discovered that the current Apprentice is a Hero).

Also, your specific example definitely seems suspect. In the flashback, the White Knight is calling on angels. Villains don't get to do that.

Yeah, that's what I said? The White Knight was putting down a rebellion by the Blood, which if it was active conquest would be villainous but instead is heroic because of framing.

In other words, there has to be some reframing that goes on because political borders aren't real. If the King of Bandits becomes the King, his role goes from anti-laws to pro-laws even if all else remains the same.

[tyckspoon]

Also, your specific example definitely seems suspect. In the flashback, the White Knight is calling on angels. Villains don't get to do that.

One of the things the story keeps looping back to is that actions aren't necessarily good or heroic just because they're done by a Hero, just as things done by a Villain aren't necessarily evil. There's nothing stopping a Hero from doing things quite a few people would consider ethically questionable. Especially if that Hero is either not closely aligned with a Choir or if that Choir's personality lends itself to possibly shaky Greater Good-type justifications (Contrition, Mercy.. probably Judgment, but so far that's mostly been mitigated by their agent being Hanno, who despite his 'I do not judge' thing seems to be pretty circumspect about only asking for a Judgement in a situation where he already thinks the subject might have reason to be killed.)

Or they're like Endurance, which I can't really see how you'd go about promoting 'Endurance' in the world, so I would expect a Hero backed by that Choir to have a pretty free reign in what they chose to do.

[Mith]

One of the things the story keeps looping back to is that actions aren't necessarily good or heroic just because they're done by a Hero, just as things done by a Villain aren't necessarily evil. There's nothing stopping a Hero from doing things quite a few people would consider ethically questionable. Especially if that Hero is either not closely aligned with a Choir or if that Choir's personality lends itself to possibly shaky Greater Good-type justifications (Contrition, Mercy.. probably Judgment, but so far that's mostly been mitigated by their agent being Hanno, who despite his 'I do not judge' thing seems to be pretty circumspect about only asking for a Judgement in a situation where he already thinks the subject might have reason to be killed.)

Or they're like Endurance, which I can't really see how you'd go about promoting 'Endurance' in the world, so I would expect a Hero backed by that Choir to have a pretty free reign in what they chose to do.

I think "Endurance" as a virtue is the idea of not giving into despair, especially when there is such things as Providence.

[Lord Raziere]

Or they're like Endurance, which I can't really see how you'd go about promoting 'Endurance' in the world, so I would expect a Hero backed by that Choir to have a pretty free reign in what they chose to do.

I mean another way of phrasing Endurance is "Survival". the weird thing about most of the choirs is that they don't say normal virtues like justice or compassion or whatever, the wording seems quite specific in what they are?

Definition of these words:
Contrition: feeling remorseful or penitent
Mercy: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm
Judgment:
1. the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.
2. a misfortune or calamity viewed as a divine punishment.

there is a double meaning with Judgment. Hanno can fit both definitions.

endurance: the fact or power of enduring an unpleasant or difficult process or situation without giving way.

seems defensive. which I think explains why we don't much of it in this story: because the Choir of Endurance would seem mostly concerned with making sure good continues to exist at all, with making sure that people stick it out and keep strong without giving into baser natures. thats hard to make an antagonist to Catherine out of, since she doesn't care about forcing that kind of narrative, so it'd just end up something like a Hero of Endurance coming across an innocent little town and see Cat's army come on the horizon and being training them to beat them back to keep their little town safe, Cat see what he is doing and knows the narrative of that story is that a villain who screws with the little town being trained by the hero will get their ass handed to them, the underdog principle is just too strong on this one, so she just decides to not attack that village and go around it or trade with it or something, thus it ends on an anti-climactic note of the Hero of Endurance preparing for nothing.

[Eurus]

Re: Robber, and the potential Name thereof:

We know that different cultures have different Names, and Goblin Names were implied to be one of those secrets that the goblin secret police assassinate people to keep secret, weren't they? I mean I don't think anything was ever outright stated, but I seem to recall the story at least mentioning that Cat's not sure whether Goblins get Names or not, let alone what Names they get. It's... hard to imagine them being approved of by a Choir, though. Hmm. :smallamused:

[InvisibleBison]

People have been theorizing about Robber secretly having a Name for years, but I think the most recent update disproves those theories - or at least moves them from "unlikely but possible" to "only possible if the author is lying about something". Why? Because Robber has noticeably aged, and Villains don't age.

[NigelWalmsley]

One of the things the story keeps looping back to is that actions aren't necessarily good or heroic just because they're done by a Hero, just as things done by a Villain aren't necessarily evil.

Certainly. But the particular form of that distinction is between Good (an actual faction in the world) and good (a moral judgment on the part of readers). You can certainly command angels while doing stuff we would consider immoral (such as, I don't know, brainwashing thousands of people into a crusade), but you can't do it as a Villain. Because, despite the name "Good", angels aren't on the side of people who are acting morally, they're on what amounts to a particular side of a philosophical debate.

[Mith]

People have been theorizing about Robber secretly having a Name for years, but I think the most recent update disproves those theories - or at least moves them from "unlikely but possible" to "only possible if the author is lying about something". Why? Because Robber has noticeably aged, and Villains don't age.

Could he be a Hero with the Matrons as a Villain caste? That would make the entire Matron form of government a claimant system, with Robber's attempt of less violent means of getting to the War Collage (gambling for his spot with other contenders) as a rejection of the tradition.

I am not saying he is a Hero now, since he never crystalized into a full Name, but it could be interesting if Robber comes to his own akin to how Cat has been described as a Villain with the heart of Above's agent.

Not saying that is a set thing, but it could be a possible way for that to work. It could be that even if he himself never makes a Name, he starts the grove enough that his legend becomes a Name. Names require a culture, and Cat could be said to have inspired a culture shift amongst the Legionary Goblins akin to what Amadeus did for the Orcs. Or it could be that the Reforms set the great overarching framework for the minorities of Praes to self actualise, and Cat has come through to drive those changes.

A catalyst if you will...

[HolyDraconus]

Latest chapter tugged on some strings. I enjoyed it but damn that cliffhanger. I felt light for most of it, then just started going downhill with a snowball's weight.

[Forum Explorer]

People have been theorizing about Robber secretly having a Name for years, but I think the most recent update disproves those theories - or at least moves them from "unlikely but possible" to "only possible if the author is lying about something". Why? Because Robber has noticeably aged, and Villains don't age.

Except Robber is clearly a Hero. Think of how many times he's just 'happened' to be in the right place to save the day. That is some seriously Heroic levels of Providence right there.

[lord_khaine]

Certainly. But the particular form of that distinction is between Good (an actual faction in the world) and good (a moral judgment on the part of readers). You can certainly command angels while doing stuff we would consider immoral (such as, I don't know, brainwashing thousands of people into a crusade), but you can't do it as a Villain. Because, despite the name "Good", angels aren't on the side of people who are acting morally, they're on what amounts to a particular side of a philosophical debate.

Someone made a quite relevant point about this a while back.
On how the comflict between Above and Below in part could be more accuratly framed as a Order/Chaos conflict.

[HolyDraconus]

Read the most recent chapter 50. Its good. More building

[Mith]

Read the most recent chapter 50. Its good. More building

I'll be honest, it sort have surprised me. Granted having Hakram remind Cat of her own idealism is a re-occurring theme in this series, but I had thought that Akua's position was obvious even if there wasn't the point of "don't just murder for convenience". But I guess Cat is farther down into the pit than I thought she was.

Of course, there was a different reading of that scene where Cat more deliberately held the scene to bring the issues into the open to bind the group closer to her chosen path (using the meta check of "not a Pivot but Important") but I think Cat was genuinely conflicted about this discussion for that to count.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

On the subject of Endurance, IIRC the rallying cry of their champion (the Stalwart Paladin) was "I suffer so others don't have to"*. So Endurance is not about just personally being tough, but placing yourself between others and that which threatens them.

* Which, it must be said, beats the hell out of "I will never be forgiven".

[Forum Explorer]

I'll be honest, it sort have surprised me. Granted having Hakram remind Cat of her own idealism is a re-occurring theme in this series, but I had thought that Akua's position was obvious even if there wasn't the point of "don't just murder for convenience". But I guess Cat is farther down into the pit than I thought she was.

Of course, there was a different reading of that scene where Cat more deliberately held the scene to bring the issues into the open to bind the group closer to her chosen path (using the meta check of "not a Pivot but Important") but I think Cat was genuinely conflicted about this discussion for that to count.

I feel she was conflicted about it, but was already leaning towards bringing Scribe into her service. I mean her first instinct was to say yes when Scribe approached her at night. But then she got cold feet and needed a reminder on why that was the correct decision to make.

[Tvtyrant]

Cat nooooooo! Don't take Hakram's name right when he needs it most.

[NigelWalmsley]

It's not as simple as Cat destroying Hakram's Name. It's the question of whether Hakram can change himself to accept a version of his Name that's less focused on straight-up combat, and more on logistics. It's the opportunity for a pivot (maybe a change to his third Aspect?), but it's not clear if he'll take it. If he does, that potentially has interesting implications for Orcs as a whole. What does it mean if the first Orcish Named in hundreds of years is someone who doesn't rely on personal strength at all?

[Tvtyrant]

It's not as simple as Cat destroying Hakram's Name. It's the question of whether Hakram can change himself to accept a version of his Name that's less focused on straight-up combat, and more on logistics. It's the opportunity for a pivot (maybe a change to his third Aspect?), but it's not clear if he'll take it. If he does, that potentially has interesting implications for Orcs as a whole. What does it mean if the first Orcish Named in hundreds of years is someone who doesn't rely on personal strength at all?

Scribe has the same role, which we see here with Cat refusing to put on the boots Scribe left for her. Scribe filling his role is a real threat to him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"me, standing in judgement over others. Delivering it sword in hand."

I'm getting vibes of Pratchett's Carrot "personal isn't the same as important" Ironfoundersson, as he could have been if he had gone for the Ruler of Ankh position. In the words of Vimes (well, thoughts): "[...]it dawned on him that while Ankh in the past had its share of evil rulers, and simply bad rulers, it had never yet come under the heel of a good ruler. That might be the most terrifying prospect of all"

I don't think it is going to be anywhere close to it, but there is a vibe of "true justice is terrifying". Not to mention it'd be a kick in the teeth of coin-boy, if suddenly his counterpart is the one with the Name-backed justice mandate.

Grey Wolf

[The Glyphstone]

I'm doubtful on the last one, because she's still going to be a Villain. Judgement and Justice aren't necessarily synonymous, especially for a villainous Name.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm doubtful on the last one, because she's still going to be a Villain. Judgement and Justice aren't necessarily synonymous, especially for a villainous Name.

Fair, but I keep thinking she's slowly moving towards somewhere halfway between Hero and Villain. I think I get that feeling from the fact that her devotion to the gods below is nonexistent beyond choice of curse words. But I accept that feeling is hardly universal. It wouldn't be the first time the text has led me down the garden path.

Grey Wolf

[Forum Explorer]

Fair, but I keep thinking she's slowly moving towards somewhere halfway between Hero and Villain. I think I get that feeling from the fact that her devotion to the gods below is nonexistent beyond choice of curse words. But I accept that feeling is hardly universal. It wouldn't be the first time the text has led me down the garden path.

Grey Wolf

My personal bet is that her new Name is going to be something like the Arbiter of Names, or something like that. And that she'll basically become the new version of the Wandering Bard for the new age.

[HolyDraconus]

My personal bet is that her new Name is going to be something like the Arbiter of Names, or something like that. And that she'll basically become the new version of the Wandering Bard for the new age.

Didn't she reject that though when she was with the Bard? Like I felt that the Bard was TRYING to make her into it's successor and Cat dodged that.

[tyckspoon]

Didn't she reject that though when she was with the Bard? Like I felt that the Bard was TRYING to make her into it's successor and Cat dodged that.

Doesn't mean she can't get a similar Name and Role - it'd just help cement 'On my terms or none' as part of her aspects/Role/preferred stories, which is already a very Catherine kind of sentiment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Didn't she reject that though when she was with the Bard? Like I felt that the Bard was TRYING to make her into it's successor and Cat dodged that.

WB tried to force her into a music-based name that would have been WB’s antagonist, which would give WB the advantage since heroes usually win those direct connections. This would be a more generic “mover and shaker” role, IIUC

Grey Wolf

[Mith]

Cat has been breaking Patterns of Three by recognising her mirroring with her counterparts and breaking those expectations that are built into those patterns from the beginning. She recognised how she has mirrored with various contemporaries over the course of her rise to power (Lone Swordsman and Heiress/Diabolist as both the champion of Callow, and the rejection of Old Evil, the Grey Pilgrim as the advisor/ mentor role at the Name level, and now at the level of binding and breaking the old monsters of the Wandering Bard/Dead King). Cat's central goal/madness that drives the power of a Name, hasn't really changed; it has just grown and refined itself into something that the current Pattern doesn't really contain.

It would be interesting if the response is to make her the new equivalent of the Wandering Bard, but as single immortal creature, rather than a Name that just possesses new bodies with a purpose and Name dream so strong that it essentially is a continuous stream of consciousness.

Edit: Musing/probably wrong thought paths on the Drow

I noted earlier that it is interesting that the Crows were in a position of being able to gain converts (keeping Cat as a semi exception; her role is at least semi unique). I do wonder what the cost is with branching outside of the Drow, since strife/growth from conflict is a part of the Tenants. Granted, we do not know those Tenants in full, but considering how Cat has created a shift in perspective on the tenants with the democratising of the sigils, what keeps sigils from being mixed race? Drow already do not think in terms of family/romance ties, but only in platonic ideals of a tribe as a focus on a single goal.

Really, I just wonder if the end of the book will see the Callowan House Insurgent rebrand as the House of Morning. There are long shadows at dawn and bright stars at Twilight.

This may require Mirror Knight/Dawn Strider to make some reparation work to the drow.

[Fable Wright]

My theory? Chess motif.

The Black Knight moves in unique ways to take away key pieces. He's Below's Hatchetman.

The Black Queen moves with overwhelming force in any direction she's needed, and can take on most any piece.

My theory is that she'll be the named Black Queen, charged to stand judgement over the board. If someone is at risk of breaking it, she is their judge, jury, and executioner. Whether they're summoning angels or demons, be they choir or god.

For bonus points, she can already move as a Bishop, courtesy the Crows. All she needs is for her name to let her move as a Rook. For double bonus points, it was implied that the White Knight was designed to hunt the Black Queen. Which... well, again, chess.

[Tvtyrant]

Cat has been breaking Patterns of Three by recognising her mirroring with her counterparts and breaking those expectations that are built into those patterns from the beginning. She recognised how she has mirrored with various contemporaries over the course of her rise to power (Lone Swordsman and Heiress/Diabolist as both the champion of Callow, and the rejection of Old Evil, the Grey Pilgrim as the advisor/ mentor role at the Name level, and now at the level of binding and breaking the old monsters of the Wandering Bard/Dead King). Cat's central goal/madness that drives the power of a Name, hasn't really changed; it has just grown and refined itself into something that the current Pattern doesn't really contain.

It would be interesting if the response is to make her the new equivalent of the Wandering Bard, but as single immortal creature, rather than a Name that just possesses new bodies with a purpose and Name dream so strong that it essentially is a continuous stream of consciousness.

Edit: Musing/probably wrong thought paths on the Drow

I noted earlier that it is interesting that the Crows were in a position of being able to gain converts (keeping Cat as a semi exception; her role is at least semi unique). I do wonder what the cost is with branching outside of the Drow, since strife/growth from conflict is a part of the Tenants. Granted, we do not know those Tenants in full, but considering how Cat has created a shift in perspective on the tenants with the democratising of the sigils, what keeps sigils from being mixed race? Drow already do not think in terms of family/romance ties, but only in platonic ideals of a tribe as a focus on a single goal.

Really, I just wonder if the end of the book will see the Callowan House Insurgent rebrand as the House of Morning. There are long shadows at dawn and bright stars at Twilight.

This may require Mirror Knight/Dawn Strider to make some reparation work to the drow.

I imagine the fact that Drow live very long lives, and need to be killed to collect their Night is a factor. Imagine if Goblins died of old age or accidents regularly and Night just bled out of the system.

[druid91]

I imagine the fact that Drow live very long lives, and need to be killed to collect their Night is a factor. Imagine if Goblins died of old age or accidents regularly and Night just bled out of the system.

That's a consequence of the night. Not any inherent physiological trait of Drow.

Lots of Night = Don't age. Rumena was old before Night became a thing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My theory is that she'll be the named Black Queen

She's been mentally preparing herself to give up the crown, and I really hope she doesn't buckle on that and kick Vivienne to the curb. Besides, she already is known as the Black Queen so if that was going to be her Name, she'd had taken it up by now, I'd imagine. No, that Name seems all wrong at this point. Maybe the concept will turn out to be correct, but not under that Name.

Grey Wolf

[Tvtyrant]

That's a consequence of the night. Not any inherent physiological trait of Drow.

Lots of Night = Don't age. Rumena was old before Night became a thing.

That makes them an even better fit for the Goblins. Robber as a priest of Night is an easy way out of the aging problem.

[HolyDraconus]

Latest chapter.... and one inner monologue sums up for me what i was thinking.. "And Gods Below, how large would the scope of it be for it to take so long to coalesce?"

[Mith]

Thinking about it, can new Names gain a massive power boost from going up against and winning against old, established Names? "A person is defined by their enemies" and all that.

Well Cat managed to get an entire continent dancing to her tune in a way that not even Triumphant really managed. She has twisted a Crusade into a weapon to suit her own purpose, and while she has paid the price along the way, her cause has always been victorious. She never really used Names the way other Heroes and Villains do. They have really only ever been handholds.

This Name will fit her perfectly instead.

[Fable Wright]

She's been mentally preparing herself to give up the crown, and I really hope she doesn't buckle on that and kick Vivienne to the curb. Besides, she already is known as the Black Queen so if that was going to be her Name, she'd had taken it up by now, I'd imagine. No, that Name seems all wrong at this point. Maybe the concept will turn out to be correct, but not under that Name.

Grey Wolf

Complication: the recent interludes in the Arsenal showed unwavering faith in her from her soldiers. Will Callow ever stop thinking of her as a queen? I'm predicting a situation like the Grey Pilgrim. Wearing no crown and sitting upon no throne, ruler of two nations if she ever cared to claim it, her only subjects in name being the Villains signed to the Liesse Accords.

And I'm pretty sure that new Roles are Named after the titles given to them by others, not abstract concepts. How else would we get Grey Pilgrim or Mirror Knight?

[Mith]

She could still have the Name of The Arbiter while having the epithet of The Black Queen (similar to how the previous Black Knight was the Carrion Lord).

[NigelWalmsley]

And I'm pretty sure that new Roles are Named after the titles given to them by others, not abstract concepts. How else would we get Grey Pilgrim or Mirror Knight?

Like most things about names, it appears to be somewhat mixed. A lot of the ruling names (like Dread Emperor, or "Warden of the West"/"First Prince" Names Cordelia was offered) seem to be synonymous with the titles given to the local monarch. But on the other end of the scale, you have Names like Scribe and Archer that don't really seem they were personal titles before becoming Names. It's hard to imagine someone calling one particular archer who was really good at archery "Archer". I think Cat's Name is probably going to be for a Role that's pretty divorced from ruling Callow, so I doubt it'll be Black Queen (not to mention that she was offered that after Second Liesse and didn't take it).

Arbiter seems like a pretty good fit, actually. It's got connotations of being in control, without being explicitly defined as a ruler, and it fits with her desire to formalize rules for Named. It's also a good contrast to the Intercessor. Where the Wandering Bard exercises control by pushing, prodding, and pulling from the shadows, Cat is a lot more direct, though not necessarily unsubtle. And her interactions with angels fit pretty well to a pattern of "they're your damn rules, now follow them".

[HolyDraconus]

Like most things about names, it appears to be somewhat mixed. A lot of the ruling names (like Dread Emperor, or "Warden of the West"/"First Prince" Names Cordelia was offered) seem to be synonymous with the titles given to the local monarch. But on the other end of the scale, you have Names like Scribe and Archer that don't really seem they were personal titles before becoming Names. It's hard to imagine someone calling one particular archer who was really good at archery "Archer". I think Cat's Name is probably going to be for a Role that's pretty divorced from ruling Callow, so I doubt it'll be Black Queen (not to mention that she was offered that after Second Liesse and didn't take it).

Arbiter seems like a pretty good fit, actually. It's got connotations of being in control, without being explicitly defined as a ruler, and it fits with her desire to formalize rules for Named. It's also a good contrast to the Intercessor. Where the Wandering Bard exercises control by pushing, prodding, and pulling from the shadows, Cat is a lot more direct, though not necessarily unsubtle. And her interactions with angels fit pretty well to a pattern of "they're your damn rules, now follow them".

The Beast reacted though during the duel. Something about Judgement, so there's that.

[McNum]

So here's this giant enemy crab.

It would be like Cat to attack its weak point for massive damage, too.

[Mith]

I wonder if Hakram will go from Adjutaunt to Warlord (view as a military promotion). His Warlord won't fight for orcs, so he will do so alone.

He wants to fight to the point that he would learn to fight in prosthetics, and he wants the Orcs to break with the Tower.

This really screws with the "No Named rulers" clause Cat was trying to get through, though that may fail with the fact that the Tower will likely still stand unless Black tears it down.

[Tvtyrant]

Several nations are literally defined by having named rulers. Cat has to kill Praes off if she wants to get rid of the Emperor/Empress model for instance.

And to be honest her entire scheme assumes that imperial borders are legitimate and that nations are real. The issue with that is borders change and nations rise and splinter constantly, for this to work she has to build an international organization devoted to maintaining out of date borders.

[HolyDraconus]

Several nations are literally defined by having named rulers. Cat has to kill Praes off if she wants to get rid of the Emperor/Empress model for instance.

And to be honest her entire scheme assumes that imperial borders are legitimate and that nations are real. The issue with that is borders change and nations rise and splinter constantly, for this to work she has to build an international organization devoted to maintaining out of date borders.

What if she just says screw borders and have it as a mandate in the Accords, on pain of death? Considering both Sides agreed to them it can stand, and given enough time the common populace will develop their own stigma surrounding it. Hell, Malicia could be the first target if she survived.

[Mith]

Several nations are literally defined by having named rulers. Cat has to kill Praes off if she wants to get rid of the Emperor/Empress model for instance.

And to be honest her entire scheme assumes that imperial borders are legitimate and that nations are real. The issue with that is borders change and nations rise and splinter constantly, for this to work she has to build an international organization devoted to maintaining out of date borders.

I'm not saying that the concept doesn't have any problems objectively, but from Cat's perspective, every Named ruler will drag their nations into a conflict that as she sees it they should not be a part of.

I wonder if there is a method to sign on as constitutional monarch style where Named rulers are recognised as being two different persons under the laws of their state and the Accords? So peacetime functions of a ruler are unchanged, but they are faced with wartime limitations. This probably would be something that could arise out of the Grand Alliance on it's own as well.

[McNum]

You know, if Catherine is to have a divine miracle named after her, it is entirely fitting that it is a black firestorm. Catherine's Tears, indeed.

This time, she did start the fire.

[Tvtyrant]

Drow spoiler Seems like the Drow get night from killing anything, not just Drow by the statements made about the Sigils. That's some busted stuff right there, they just get continously better as a race forever.

[Mith]

We always known that the Drow can taken drag anything to the alter of Night. It's why they raided everyone.

I figure the Drow are really an Evil counter of the Elves, who are are at their peak as a society; they cannot have children, so they cannot grow in number, and seem hyper entrenched in their viewpoints. The Drow, especially if Cat's Reforms refine themselves, are now a culture that grows, adapts and over comes obstacles over time. They are the perfect "bottle cap" to the looming threats provided by the Ratlings and the Dead King (should he only be sealed away). The issue is that they were turned inwards for so much infighting that they couldn't do anything to get ahead.

They just need to not implode in the mean time.

===

I am curious how many "traditionalists" there are amongst the Drow Sigils. One of the Ten Generals was mentioned to have taken the Everdark army doctrine and made it holy law, so the concept of sharing resources isn't an entirely foreign concept to the Drow nation.

[Florian]

Two things have been mentioned so far: Drow can harvest Night from nearly anything they kill in combat. Other races haven't developed that particular ability, nor the more important one of amassing Night to become Mighty, so while yes, slaughtering some undead will garner Night, it´s not on the scale that slaughtering a Mighty will provide.

That particular general was the one shown in the vision by the Sisters? Did´t really impress me.

[Mith]

Two things have been mentioned so far: Drow can harvest Night from nearly anything they kill in combat. Other races haven't developed that particular ability, nor the more important one of amassing Night to become Mighty, so while yes, slaughtering some undead will garner Night, it´s not on the scale that slaughtering a Mighty will provide.

That particular general was the one shown in the vision by the Sisters? Did´t really impress me.

I'm not talking about personal ability. Just the fact that that chapter mentioned that while unusual, sigils that train up less powerful Drow were not unheard of prior to the introduction of Oath Night. As such I am wondering if the "traditionalists" are closer to a minority in number/voices, if not in general individual firepower.

[Florian]

I'm not talking about personal ability. Just the fact that that chapter mentioned that while unusual, sigils that train up less powerful Drow were not unheard of prior to the introduction of Oath Night. As such I am wondering if the "traditionalists" are closer to a minority in number/voices, if not in general individual firepower.

Drow once had a civilization, build cities, had a functioning culture and such. So one can assume that they also had stuff like organized city watch and a standing army.

The general that was shown and talked about a bit structures his sigil more along the line of an army. By the battle that was described, you can easily see that beyond that, it´s all typical drow, with Mighty and such.

[Rydiro]

Drow once had a civilization, build cities, had a functioning culture and such. So one can assume that they also had stuff like organized city watch and a standing army.Did anyone get why drow aren't gendered for most of their lifespan, but they have two female godesses?
Doesn't make much sense to me.

[InvisibleBison]

Did anyone get why drow aren't gendered for most of their lifespan, but they have two female godesses?
Doesn't make much sense to me.

I would guess that the pre-Sve Noc drow society had genders, , but after the ascension of Sve Noc and the creation of Night that aspect of drow society was lost. It probably has something to do with the fact that modern drow aren't particularly interested in sex.

[Mith]

Did anyone get why drow aren't gendered for most of their lifespan, but they have two female godesses?
Doesn't make much sense to me.

My impression was that under Empire Underdark, the drow were not quite so agendered, just egalitarian (you do what you want to do within the structure of the society). The agendered portion could have been something that rose after the ascension of Sve Noc. The first memories talk about their "fathers" and "mothers". While that could be a strictly functional label, I think it reflects that the Drow refined to just being goal driven people so gender labels do not define them.

[NigelWalmsley]

Did anyone get why drow aren't gendered for most of their lifespan, but they have two female godesses?

The "it" pronoun that gets used for drow is particularly revealing here, I think. The drow spent the past couple hundred (thousand? I forget the exact timescales) years in a culture that was basically an extended blood sacrifice. Anything that wasn't killing other drow for their power was viewed as at best menial and at worst dangerous (because if you learn something cool, your boss kills you and takes your knowledge). The way I understood it, drow basically viewed reproduction as menial labor, and since their "society" wasn't complicated enough to support roles other than "murders other people for power by any means available", they didn't have any real concept of gender roles either. But before the Night, they had a thriving civilization with art and culture and families, which apparently had concepts like "male" and "female".

[Rydiro]

So gods dont seem to be influenced much by their believers, or else the 'sisters' would have eroded into 'siblings'.

[HolyDraconus]

So gods dont seem to be influenced much by their believers, or else the 'sisters' would have eroded into 'siblings'.

We don't have enough to go off of in that case though: the sisters didn't become full fledged gods until after Cat gave up Winter to them.

[Tvtyrant]

We also know basically nothing about the Gods as a whole. Besides using the world as a big storybook and evidently imposing a static setting on a limited area (not the underground or other continents, just surface Calernia.)

[MammonAzrael]

We also know basically nothing about the Gods as a whole. Besides using the world as a big storybook and evidently imposing a static setting on a limited area (not the underground or other continents, just surface Calernia.)

Aren't the Gnomes the ones imposing the static setting, not the Gods? Which, of course, would imply that Gnomes (and their equals) are running around with their own Names on whatever Spelljammer-esque shenanigans they get up to!

[druid91]

Pretty much for the Drow it's just that their society wasn't always like this. Current Drow are barbarians playing in the ruins of their empire of old, and the current drow culture is nothing like the original, because they were going to go extinct if they didn't completely remake their culture into a giant blood sacrifice because they were borrowing against the future to extend their lives, a future that the dwarves destroyed.

So, under the all consuming need to have constant bloodshed and sacrifice, their entire original culture broke. I mean just think about the effects that has on people. Even if, originally, you start with a normal, modern human family unit.

Now imagine your children can be killed at any time, because they learned a skill a Mighty might find useful, or simply because they wanted a little bit more night. Imagine you or your spouse might be killed at any time for the same reasons. But there's always a need for more sacrifices, always a need for more people, so the mighty want you to have children, and petty concepts like 'liking' the person joining you in parenthood are besides the point.

You're going through nine months of utter misery not because you love someone, or even because you want to have a child you can love and watch grow up and be raised by you, but because some psycho ordered you on pain of death to sleep with someone you don't even like so that at the end of those nine months they have a slave they can sacrifice on a whim to raise up a lesser mighty.

As for Mighty themselves having children, it would be hard for anyone of a sentimental bent to make it as Mighty. And since being Mighty is the only way you stay alive.... We already see high power corporate types tend not to have families as they put their career over it. Now imagine if instead of business, your daily grind was endless murderous war, both from without and from within.

A child, if it's to be of value to a mighty would need them to have some level of sentiment. Which they lack, and if they lack the sentiment, what's the difference between them having the kid, or forcing some non-mighty to do it? The result is just more meat for the grinder regardless.

[NigelWalmsley]

Aren't the Gnomes the ones imposing the static setting, not the Gods? Which, of course, would imply that Gnomes (and their equals) are running around with their own Names on whatever Spelljammer-esque shenanigans they get up to!

The Gnomes mandate a technological stasis, but the whole nature of Narrative and Names is to trap societies in sociological stasis, and those are from the gods. Rationally speaking, Praes should be a peaceful nation that exports gems and magic (of which it has a lot) and imports food (of which it does not have very much). But instead it's been ruled by a litany of crazy tyrants who try to steal their neighbor's weather, create armies of sentient tigers, or otherwise engage in the sort of villainous shenanigans for which they are narratively rewarded, resulting in an endless series of wars with Callow that they most lose.

[HolyDraconus]

You know things are serious when Zombie is gone. That flying monster will be missed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Alas, Zombie I III II, we hardly knew ye.

But yeah, the winged one has more personality than the other two, and will be missed.

GW

[Mith]

Alas, Zombie I III II, we hardly knew ye.

But yeah, the winged one has more personality than the other two, and will be missed.

GW

I wonder if she may return yet. Simply because there has been a lot of comments on her personality and evolution over time in Creation, which sounds very similar to the Summoner's own creations.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wonder if she may return yet. Simply because there has been a lot of comments on her personality and evolution over time in Creation, which sounds very similar to the Summoner's own creations.

I find that fairly unlikely - this story is not shy about keeping dead characters dead. Cat may still recycle the name, of course, as is her wont, but it won't be this zombie, just the next one.

But that is indeed a connection I had not picked up, thank you for pointing it out - Cat's necromancy does resemble summoning (and presumably, resembles it more than regular necromancy, since it has been pointed out multiple times that normal undead don't develop personalities). Huh. I wonder where the story is going with that.

Grey Wolf

[Forum Explorer]

I find that fairly unlikely - this story is not shy about keeping dead characters dead. Cat may still recycle the name, of course, as is her wont, but it won't be this zombie, just the next one.

But that is indeed a connection I had not picked up, thank you for pointing it out - Cat's necromancy does resemble summoning (and presumably, resembles it more than regular necromancy, since it has been pointed out multiple times that normal undead don't develop personalities). Huh. I wonder where the story is going with that.

Grey Wolf

It actually makes me wonder if the next Zombie will have this Zombie's personality. But I doubt it. I think this Zombie had so much personality because it was originally a Fae creature and was animated by Winter's power.

[Mith]

To be clear, I am fine either way. I just think it would be interesting if Zombie returned in some form or another.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The herd of goats filled with explosives & goblin fire she's going to sent into those caves to collapse them is going to be a sight to behold.
[/mostly tongue in cheek]
GW

[HolyDraconus]

The herd of goats filled with explosives & goblin fire she's going to sent into those caves to collapse them is going to be a sight to behold.
GW

She wouldn't..... would she? Lol

[Grey_Wolf_c]

She wouldn't..... would she? Lol

I mean, the reason she won't is because she doesn't have enough explosives. But if she was still working for Black and thus had effectively infinite munitions? Oh, it'd be glorious. Baa... Boom

Grey Wolf

[HolyDraconus]

I mean, the reason she won't is because she doesn't have enough explosives. But if she was still working for Black and thus had effectively infinite munitions? Oh, it'd be glorious. Baa... Boom

Grey Wolf
Didnt Pickler come up with a Light fueled alternative though?

[Florian]

The herd of goats filled with explosives & goblin fire she's going to sent into those caves to collapse them is going to be a sight to behold.

Won't happen.

EE makes extensive use of a very classic writing technique: Making a big point of elaborately going into option A and B, then showing that the protagonist is very clever by going for option C, which hasn't been touched on in any way at this point.

The exploding sheep were option C when the story was still about the conflict of two more regular armies.

The current story arc features both, high and low in the sense of armies and Heroes/Villains/Mighty, so the current option C will resolve more around "story power" this time.

[Mith]

Won't happen.

EE makes extensive use of a very classic writing technique: Making a big point of elaborately going into option A and B, then showing that the protagonist is very clever by going for option C, which hasn't been touched on in any way at this point.

The exploding sheep were option C when the story was still about the conflict of two more regular armies.

The current story arc features both, high and low in the sense of armies and Heroes/Villains/Mighty, so the current option C will resolve more around "story power" this time.

Thinking on the subject of "story power".

I know that it's been discussed in similar form before, but since Names arise not just out of personal drive, but also on building a reputation ahead of oneself (all Names are in a sense spiritual successors of their predecessor), I wonder if Heroes are less favoured by "the story" as much because the Heavens pour so much power into them more so that the people want them to win. Heroes don't die when thrown off cliffs because people don't want them to die. Villains don't succeed because no one wants them to succeed. However, when you believe in punitive justice (ironic downfall), you also keep the bogeymen around just long enough to prove your point.

I'm not saying that the Gods Wager doesn't play a role, but more that how civilisation evolves their Names and Roles plays a bigger role than what the Gods want.

The reason this train of thought is interesting to me in this final arc is because Serenity genuinely venerates Nemeshah as a benevolent god. If the above is correct, wouldn't the civilisation of Serenity will give Nemeshah some form of Providence in this instance?

[Florian]

@Mith:

I think you have the basics wrong.

History repeats itself. The concept we are talking about, is that certain stuff repeated so often that it left a mark, a pattern, on reality. These marks/patterns have the habit to happen as part of regular reality, but also follow their own logic, sort of a second level of reality, superseding the basic level.

Basically, you see a difference where there is actually none. The heroic template generally is granted power, while the villainous archetype general takes power. One has been chosen by a choir, the other has opted to bind demons and so on.

Main difference is that the villain generally get to act, while the heroes react, which is the reason why they are better in synch with Story, because they have started the patterns these stories revolve around (band of 5, 3 rounds and so on).

The Dead King has already grown into his own Name, but nothing else beyond that.

[Mith]

@Mith:

I think you have the basics wrong.

History repeats itself. The concept we are talking about, is that certain stuff repeated so often that it left a mark, a pattern, on reality. These marks/patterns have the habit to happen as part of regular reality, but also follow their own logic, sort of a second level of reality, superseding the basic level.

Basically, you see a difference where there is actually none. The heroic template generally is granted power, while the villainous archetype general takes power. One has been chosen by a choir, the other has opted to bind demons and so on.

Main difference is that the villain generally get to act, while the heroes react, which is the reason why they are better in synch with Story, because they have started the patterns these stories revolve around (band of 5, 3 rounds and so on).

The Dead King has already grown into his own Name, but nothing else beyond that.

I guess the reason for my thought in terms of a society reinforcing a Name is the fact that we have Names that fall out of favour (see the tribal Names of the pre Tower Praes or the breaking of the Orc nation by the Meizens), as well as tropes that arise (everyone knows that Heroes don't die from being thrown off cliffs). Similarly, the Dead King does have a society behind him that sees him as a protector against the violence of those outside Serenity. Will the invading Grand Alliance face any risk in trying to take Serenity because from the perspective of those people, their paradise is being invaded unprovoked (they don't even have to know about the current war).

Look at how Kairos was able to flip the story against everyone during the formation of Twilight by being a hammy little ****. If the forces of the story is fickle enough, could a final invasion of Serenity face the Dead King able to invoke similar tropes as well? This is less about the power of a Name itself, and more the belief around them ala Hierarch manifestation of the blind faith of Bellerophon.

I'm fine if I am wrong, but I am just wondering if attempts of complete eradication (and if Nemashah would give the Grand Alliance a way to avoid such a brutal fight) can force the Alliance into a corner.

Then again, that might be mitigated with Cat's idea of gifting the Crown of Autumn to the Dead King.

[tyckspoon]

Didnt Pickler come up with a Light fueled alternative though?

Just artillery pieces so far; we know about the unravelers (for helping take down the biggest monsters that otherwise required large amounts of very limited resources to fight) and the newest one is a stone shot that can be used for field support pieces - I think Cat is hoping that will be the counter to the armor undead and the medium-size monsters, the things that normal soldiers and priest/mage support can fight but they're currently taking unacceptably heavy losses to do it. I don't recall any mention of infantry-deployable munitions alternatives.. I'm sure it's something Cat has a priority research request on, tho, especially after figuring out a workable/sort of mass production formula for the unravelers. Grenades that cause a self-sustaining Lightstorm which eats necromantic magic would put a fairly definite end to the concept of undead armies.

[HolyDraconus]

Just artillery pieces so far; we know about the unravelers (for helping take down the biggest monsters that otherwise required large amounts of very limited resources to fight) and the newest one is a stone shot that can be used for field support pieces - I think Cat is hoping that will be the counter to the armor undead and the medium-size monsters, the things that normal soldiers and priest/mage support can fight but they're currently taking unacceptably heavy losses to do it. I don't recall any mention of infantry-deployable munitions alternatives.. I'm sure it's something Cat has a priority research request on, tho, especially after figuring out a workable/sort of mass production formula for the unravelers. Grenades that cause a self-sustaining Lightstorm which eats necromantic magic would put a fairly definite end to the concept of undead armies.

I can't believe I missed this... Cat's researching the HOLY GRENADE. lmao

[McNum]

Well there's an old favorite revisited. All we need now is goblinfire and we've had the entire Black Queen special.

Sooner or later, she's going to light that green fire intentionally.

[Fable Wright]

Well there's an old favorite revisited. All we need now is goblinfire and we've had the entire Black Queen special.

Sooner or later, she's going to light that green fire intentionally.

Nah, there's not enough goblinfire to go around. The stuff seems useful around Keter to eat wards, but the sappers were mentioned to only have enough to really hammer two fortified positions with it.

...Which naturally means Ol' Bones won't give her the chance to use it intentionally, on her own terms. :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

Oh god.. Robber and the Page was a work of art.
I laughted so had i ended up with tears in my eyes.

[Tvtyrant]

Oh god.. Robber and the Page was a work of art.
I laughted so had i ended up with tears in my eyes.

One of the few actually funny moments in the series.

Also, gotta love Cat's approach. Fantastic mix of incredibly straightforward and devious.

[Mith]

People are suggesting Abigail to gain the Name of Dauntless General, thinking it would be hilarious as she is not particularly courageous. However, looking at the definition/history of the word from Merriam -Webster:

"The history of the world is peopled with dauntless men and women who refused to be subdued or "tamed" by fear. The word dauntless can be traced back to Latin domare, meaning "to tame" or "to subdue." When our verb daunt (a domare descendant borrowed by way of Anglo-French) was first used in the 14th century, it shared these meanings. The now-obsolete "tame" sense referred to the taming or breaking of wild animals, particularly horses: an undaunted horse was an unbroken horse. Not until the late 16th century did we use undaunted with the meaning "undiscouraged and courageously resolute" to describe people. By then, such lionhearted souls could also be described as undauntable, and finally, in Henry VI, Part 3, Shakespeare gave us dauntless."

So if you look at Abigal's "Dot your i's cross your t's approach to war, along with the Power of Story, she is the dauntless as she is always the one standing on her feet. She really took Cat's point about "use your fear of failure to prevent the on coming disaster" to heart.

[McNum]

Oh my. If Cat can Speak without her Name having found its true form yet, just what kind of power is she working towards?

It is interesting that it manifested when having to put her foot down against Named. That's beginning to become a pattern. Whenever Cat deals with Named, be they dead or living, the beast lurks behind her in satisfaction.

A Name to rule the Named, maybe? That's going to need a lot of power to work. And quite possibly an event like no other for it to finally coalesce. And considering what Cat has been up to so far without it being nailed down... If it doesn't leave a permanent mark on the land, it'd almost be disappointing.

[Forum Explorer]

A more nasty pattern seems to be forming as well: All of Cat's friendships are on the rocks. She's fighting with Archer, Hakrum, Vivi, and the White Knight. The only person she isn't fighting with is Masego. The Wandering Bard might join bands, but is always really seperate. Whatever Cat is becoming is in a band of 5 now, but she might be doomed to stand alone.

[McNum]

The horrible thing there is that the beast especially approves when she's passing judgment on Named.

If she ends up as an arbiter of all Named or something equally grand and preposterous, then she cannot be equals with any Named anymore. Even the Dread Emperors have a Black Knight, but whatever Cat is becoming might have to stand truly alone.

[Tvtyrant]

A more nasty pattern seems to be forming as well: All of Cat's friendships are on the rocks. She's fighting with Archer, Hakrum, Vivi, and the White Knight. The only person she isn't fighting with is Masego. The Wandering Bard might join bands, but is always really seperate. Whatever Cat is becoming is in a band of 5 now, but she might be doomed to stand alone.

That is why Hasenbach turned her name down, because it would remove the equality between her and the other princes and so destroy their oligarchy/aristocracy. In Cat's case being Queen of the Named will likely make her very powerful, but also no one can be close to her as she stands above. Which we already saw was a mistake when she as Winter, she should probably reject the Name.

[Glimbur]

That is why Hasenbach turned her name down, because it would remove the equality between her and the other princes and so destroy their oligarchy/aristocracy. In Cat's case being Queen of the Named will likely make her very powerful, but also no one can be close to her as she stands above. Which we already saw was a mistake when she as Winter, she should probably reject the Name.

But a Name is also power. And it sure would be nice to have power. Need some way to hurt the Grey Legion, though it would be a little off for an Arbiter to have a plot device Aspect for that. Maybe she could have some kind of meta-Name power, like metamagic alters magic. Hard to say.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If Cat can Speak without her Name

QQ on the topic, where is Speaking explained? I've checked the wiki and tvtropes, but while I find references to it, there isn't a dedicated page I can find or even a reference to where in the book it was expositioned. I'm looking to remind myself of who gets to Speak, who they can affect, etc. In the back of my mind, I was under the misapprehension that it only worked on non-Named, which is obviously not the case.

TvTropes suggests she Spoke early on in her Squire days, but I've not had much luck finding the appropriate chapter.

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Mith]

QQ on the topic, where is Speaking explained? I've checked the wiki and tvtropes, but while I find references to it, there isn't a dedicated page I can find or even a reference to where in the book it was expositioned. I'm looking to remind myself of who gets to Speak, who they can affect, etc. In the back of my mind, I was under the misapprehension that it only worked on non-Named, which is obviously not the case.

TvTropes suggests she Spoke early on in her Squire days, but I've not had much luck finding the appropriate chapter.

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

The earliest example I can find is when she yells at the Hall of Eternal Screams for them to shut up, and they do. (About 1/3rd down the page. Look for a bolded Enough
(https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/chapter-20-rise/)
And we know it works on Names, because Black used Speech to command Cat to watch the hangings. It's just a means of enforcing your will over living creatures that you hold power over.

I wonder if the concept of Names, Domains, and Speaking are all interconnected in terms of Names allowing one to impose their will over Creation in terms of how they interact with it, with Speaking and Domains being of similar abilities to that.

[Starlit Dragon]

Alright. Changing the subject here, but I'm theorizing that this is when Nessie is going to put his actual plan into play. Assuming, of course, that Cat doesn't achieve a story-brought victory. Which seems quite likely, actually. Ah, well. I can still hope.

[HolyDraconus]

Alright. Changing the subject here, but I'm theorizing that this is when Nessie is going to put his actual plan into play. Assuming, of course, that Cat doesn't achieve a story-brought victory. Which seems quite likely, actually. Ah, well. I can still hope.

I think both will happen honestly. Cat may get her victory, but the King of Death isn't going to just.. roll over and die. If I was a betting man, I would say that Cat's future plans, the Accords, gets tanked in the process of her taking him out. I wouldn't be surprised that she gains her Role from it either. Hells, her Role could BE the Accords, and will die with her.

[Mith]

The only way I see the Accords not becoming an institution is because Heroes get into a position that they can wipe out all of Below's influence and win without Below getting it's due.

I say this because I feel like Cat's council with the Villians really show the buy in that Villians have to the Accords as a means to survive. The knowledge, resources, and skills of this war won't go away, and the Accords are the only way villians will be on the inside of it.

And Cat becoming the sole enforcer runs entirely opposite to the theme of the story in my opinion. I have always read it as intitutions as the bigger drive for progress than any one person.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think this is the first time I'll ever read a story about how no plan survives contact with the enemy... from the PoV of said enemy. I am thoroughly enjoying just how giddy Cat becomes the moment she knows what her opponent is up to, thus giving her the chance to just put all the spokes in the world through the Dead King's wheels.

GW

[McNum]

The Dead King may have made a mistake here. So careful to only offer conventional war, to not give providence a hook to tear him down. Just slowly grind down the enemy armies and win.

Except that at some point means cornering Catherine. Has that ever gone well for the one doing that? When Cat has little left to lose, she wins by grit and audacity. And facing slow annihilation by war? Yup, that's where Catherine fights the best. Facing a slow inevitable doom gives her plenty of time to get creative, start green fires, and drop lakes on armies.

[Mith]

Part of me does wonder if this is going to be "it all goes wrong" since it has been pointed out that this is a similar set up as Prince's Graveyard as far as the 11th Hour last minute save. However, I also feel that if the Dead King somehow had a sufficient counter to Cat's plan, it would kind of be a n out of nowhere pull, since we have the two in setting experts on tactics involving the metaphysics of the setting (since Juniper is still the sharper general in terms of mundane war) devising an effective strategy.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The Dead King may have made a mistake here. So careful to only offer conventional war, to not give providence a hook to tear him down. Just slowly grind down the enemy armies and win.

Except that at some point means cornering Catherine. Has that ever gone well for the one doing that? When Cat has little left to lose, she wins by grit and audacity. And facing slow annihilation by war? Yup, that's where Catherine fights the best. Facing a slow inevitable doom gives her plenty of time to get creative, start green fires, and drop lakes on armies.

Hmm, a war of attrition is exactly how you want to fight heroes, wearing them down without giving providence an opportunity to save their asses. However, I think it might be the opposite of how you want to fight a villain; when's the last time you ever saw a plan to slowly, carefully, and safely defeat a villain work? A villain will always pull something to turn the tables if given enough time to do so. The Dead King may have gotten too used to fighting heroic Crusades; Cat requires a different narrative on the strategic level.

[HolyDraconus]

Oof. there's alot of emotions there. new chapters and all that.

[Mith]

I have mixed feelings about that exchange between Hakram and Cat.

I do get that Hakram has his limits as to what he can take from Cat's worries and guilt complex. However, he also doesn't give her room to really ease off the issue. Cat's defined her actions by "want of the woman, duties of the queen" and I feel like this exchange while theoretically easing tensions of trust, really just keeps Cat in a spot of panic.

This isn't even a "Cat needs Hakram specifically as emotional support". It's also the fact that Hakram's strongest support for Cat and her goals has been as a set of eyes and planning independent of her but on the same wavelength. Cat used Hakram as an anchor point in Arsenal, not as a force of military might.

I am not saying it's not well written as a scene and story beat. It's still one that's a bit rough to read in the "twice a week update rate.

I wonder if instead of a lost Name, this instead becomes a realignment period, similar to Cat's second tenure as Squire. I guess that's similar enough to the "Power's return with sufficent clarity", but I think of it a rebuilding of their own relationship.

[HolyDraconus]

One thing that's been bugging me is why they haven't just... snatched a dead body before the Dead King can grab it and just do a soul swap for Hakram. Its theoretically proven: Cat's father has his own ripped and placed back, and it was plausible that the Folly can get hers reinserted. I would understand being squeamish with living people, and its not like they can't magically alter the body (or even SURGICALLY, incase no magic zone shenanigans again), and considering how much he means to Cat I wouldn't even be surprised if the Hierophant takes extra care to make certain nothing happens that isn't supposed to happen. Outside of Severance actually cleaving the soul so the transfer would be pointless, I just feel that at this point its a battle that doesn't need to be fought. Doing it puts him back in the fight where he wants to be anyway, and with their Villains dropping, when they was already outnumbered, it would even the Balance a bit. Thoughts?

[Aresneo]

One thing that's been bugging me is why they haven't just... snatched a dead body before the Dead King can grab it and just do a soul swap for Hakram. Its theoretically proven: Cat's father has his own ripped and placed back, and it was plausible that the Folly can get hers reinserted. I would understand being squeamish with living people, and its not like they can't magically alter the body (or even SURGICALLY, incase no magic zone shenanigans again), and considering how much he means to Cat I wouldn't even be surprised if the Hierophant takes extra care to make certain nothing happens that isn't supposed to happen. Outside of Severance actually cleaving the soul so the transfer would be pointless, I just feel that at this point its a battle that doesn't need to be fought. Doing it puts him back in the fight where he wants to be anyway, and with their Villains dropping, when they was already outnumbered, it would even the Balance a bit. Thoughts?

The time Black's soul was removed required the abilities of a specific hero, who I'm not sure is still alive or if they are is probably somewhere else, it was also putting his soul back into his still living body. Putting Harkram's soul into a repaired corpse is likely going to require necromancy and turn him into some undead state which the Dead King could likely subvert. While similar to Akua's current state she is probably safe thanks to her connection with Sev Noc, but Harkram lacks that.

[Forum Explorer]

The time Black's soul was removed required the abilities of a specific hero, who I'm not sure is still alive or if they are is probably somewhere else, it was also putting his soul back into his still living body. Putting Harkram's soul into a repaired corpse is likely going to require necromancy and turn him into some undead state which the Dead King could likely subvert. While similar to Akua's current state she is probably safe thanks to her connection with Sev Noc, but Harkram lacks that.

And even if they can gurantee that the Dead King can't usurp the body, you've got the problems of being undead. No more food, sex, booze. Hakram is very much alive and does enjoy all those things, for all that we don't see him do it.

[tyckspoon]

The time Black's soul was removed required the abilities of a specific hero, who I'm not sure is still alive or if they are is probably somewhere else, it was also putting his soul back into his still living body. Putting Harkram's soul into a repaired corpse is likely going to require necromancy and turn him into some undead state which the Dead King could likely subvert. While similar to Akua's current state she is probably safe thanks to her connection with Sev Noc, but Harkram lacks that.

Handling souls does not appear to require any particular talent, once you accept/are aware that a soul is a discrete item that can be interacted with; I seem to recall a statement (possibly just implication?) that Black's soul was partially damaged to the rough/unskilled nature of how it was extracted, but that just points out that you don't actually have to be very special to do it. And Cat would have the assistance of possibly the greatest possible subject-matter experts to work with shy of the Dead King himself, with Akua (the once Diabolist and trained in Praesi necromancy), Masego (who performed soul-surgery on Catherine back when he was still 'merely' the Apprentice and had not achieved the fullness of his eventual Name), and Sve Noc (who have taking, redistributing, and repurposing the very essence of things as the core nature of their power.) If Hakram agreed that sticking him into another body was a desirable method of restoring him than I do not see any reason it couldn't be done.

.. easy to guess at possible undesirable side effects of attempting it, tho, short of getting him a full bodily resurrection/rebuild, and I don't think he can wrangle one out of those out of Above. (I feel like any of the other powers we know of that could do something similar would effectively just be making him into a Revenant. Unless maybe they kill him and he Find + Rampages his way out of the afterlife to return to his Warlord's side. Wonder if there are any Orc myths about that, it seems like their kind of resurrection story..?)

[Forum Explorer]

Handling souls does not appear to require any particular talent, once you accept/are aware that a soul is a discrete item that can be interacted with; I seem to recall a statement (possibly just implication?) that Black's soul was partially damaged to the rough/unskilled nature of how it was extracted, but that just points out that you don't actually have to be very special to do it. And Cat would have the assistance of possibly the greatest possible subject-matter experts to work with shy of the Dead King himself, with Akua (the once Diabolist and trained in Praesi necromancy), Masego (who performed soul-surgery on Catherine back when he was still 'merely' the Apprentice and had not achieved the fullness of his eventual Name), and Sve Noc (who have taking, redistributing, and repurposing the very essence of things as the core nature of their power.) If Hakram agreed that sticking him into another body was a desirable method of restoring him than I do not see any reason it couldn't be done.

.. easy to guess at possible undesirable side effects of attempting it, tho, short of getting him a full bodily resurrection/rebuild, and I don't think he can wrangle one out of those out of Above. (I feel like any of the other powers we know of that could do something similar would effectively just be making him into a Revenant. Unless maybe they kill him and he Find + Rampages his way out of the afterlife to return to his Warlord's side. Wonder if there are any Orc myths about that, it seems like their kind of resurrection story..?)

To be exact, they removed Black's soul by the Saint of Swords cutting it out of him, so it was hardly an ordinary person who did it. And yeah, I remember that statement as well, that Black was damaged by the rough treatment his soul endured, so even someone with a lot of power and skill still bungled it. Not that she would have been trying to be gentle though.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Unless maybe they kill him and he Find + Rampages his way out of the afterlife to return to his Warlord's side. Wonder if there are any Orc myths about that, it seems like their kind of resurrection story..?

Now that you mention it, Seek, Stand, and Rampage are all pretty much perfect aspects for an Escape From Hell plot, with only the Lone Swordsman's (and later Cat's) Rise being better. I don't think that that's how the afterlife works in PGtE, though, and since his power source is the Gods Below he would be trying to escape, I don't see that working out so well.

[Tvtyrant]

A poster named Liliet made a great comment under the new chapter in regards to Klaus banking on getting a Name.

"The repeated moniker of Iron Prince, which fits him to a T, has been used by both of the Named this chapter to refer to him. It is also used in narration about him at the end at the climactic bit, in much the same manner as Cordelia once upon a time “signed the ****ing order”. Which was later confirmed to be Warden of the West foreshadowing in this exact manner: when it fits perfectly in the narrative to use that address for the person when they’re doing the very Them thing, that’s the kind of thing that Name is.

He also has the requisite story weight. Unlike Abigail before the armies split, he’s not just one of multiple commanders: he’s THE commander, the one everyone knows bears the onus of responsibility for everthing that happens. And he’s not just a someone, he’s famous, he’s THE Iron Prince to Procer entire after winning the civil war for Cordelia.

And the Role fits with the Name. Hard people making hard decisions is the whole Lycaonese narrative, and Iron Prince is the Name about that, it’s what the “iron” part refers to. He’s doing exactly what people telling stories generations down the line will talk about him doing, for the exact, very iconic reasons.

He’s in a story, and the way he’s being addressed is hinting that the Named around him see it too.

Also, the Blood/blood thing Barrow Sword was talking about might be referring to that, though I’ll listen if you have an alternative interpretation."

[tyckspoon]

Now that you mention it, Seek, Stand, and Rampage are all pretty much perfect aspects for an Escape From Hell plot, with only the Lone Swordsman's (and later Cat's) Rise being better. I don't think that that's how the afterlife works in PGtE, though, and since his power source is the Gods Below he would be trying to escape, I don't see that working out so well.

Well, resurrection is a thing, and we know souls exist as a discrete entity from their bodies, so there is some kind of existence-after-death. Admittedly we don't know specifically where souls go when their physical body dies - 'Heaven' and 'Hell' in this universe aren't afterlife destinations, they're just the layers of reality where the Angels and Devils live. But as for " since his power source is the Gods Below he would be trying to escape, I don't see that working out so well..." Why not? Might Makes Right is one of the tenets of Below. If you want to be alive and have enough power to smash your way back to the mortal realm, clearly you deserve to be alive.

(Although considering that 'become a god and/or undead' seems to be the preferred villainous route to attempted immortality rather than 'punch the Gods Below in the face until they agree to let you go back', I'm inclined to think the afterlife physics of the universe do not in fact work in a way that permits that.)

[Mith]

A poster named Liliet made a great comment under the new chapter in regards to Klaus banking on getting a Name.

"The repeated moniker of Iron Prince, which fits him to a T, has been used by both of the Named this chapter to refer to him. It is also used in narration about him at the end at the climactic bit, in much the same manner as Cordelia once upon a time “signed the ****ing order”. Which was later confirmed to be Warden of the West foreshadowing in this exact manner: when it fits perfectly in the narrative to use that address for the person when they’re doing the very Them thing, that’s the kind of thing that Name is.

He also has the requisite story weight. Unlike Abigail before the armies split, he’s not just one of multiple commanders: he’s THE commander, the one everyone knows bears the onus of responsibility for everthing that happens. And he’s not just a someone, he’s famous, he’s THE Iron Prince to Procer entire after winning the civil war for Cordelia.

And the Role fits with the Name. Hard people making hard decisions is the whole Lycaonese narrative, and Iron Prince is the Name about that, it’s what the “iron” part refers to. He’s doing exactly what people telling stories generations down the line will talk about him doing, for the exact, very iconic reasons.

He’s in a story, and the way he’s being addressed is hinting that the Named around him see it too.

Also, the Blood/blood thing Barrow Sword was talking about might be referring to that, though I’ll listen if you have an alternative interpretation."

I also wonder if Klaus is going to become one of the Damned, as this narrative is very similar to the Scorched Apostate's origin.

The reason this occurs to me, is because I wonder if Cat will also get a narrative boost in the success as the Overseer of the Damned as everyone gets their due. Her sticking to that for everyone, including the likes of the Wicked Enchanter, means that now she gains a narrative boost in the Role of High Officer over the Damned.

She has enough in the sense of riding as reinforcement of a besieged force, but I don't think we have the same sense of overt forces of Below outside of Wekensa's "Give me my Due!" speech and Hanno's mother.

Again, I realise there are enough other factors at play that this may not be necessary, but it would be interesting as Cat takes on the overseer role to have the driving effects of "right place at the right time for those in her charge" that Tariq has for Heroes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A poster named Liliet made a great comment under the new chapter in regards to Klaus banking on getting a Name.

"The repeated moniker of Iron Prince, which fits him to a T, has been used by both of the Named this chapter to refer to him. It is also used in narration about him at the end at the climactic bit, in much the same manner as Cordelia once upon a time “signed the ****ing order”. Which was later confirmed to be Warden of the West foreshadowing in this exact manner: when it fits perfectly in the narrative to use that address for the person when they’re doing the very Them thing, that’s the kind of thing that Name is.

He also has the requisite story weight. Unlike Abigail before the armies split, he’s not just one of multiple commanders: he’s THE commander, the one everyone knows bears the onus of responsibility for everthing that happens. And he’s not just a someone, he’s famous, he’s THE Iron Prince to Procer entire after winning the civil war for Cordelia.

And the Role fits with the Name. Hard people making hard decisions is the whole Lycaonese narrative, and Iron Prince is the Name about that, it’s what the “iron” part refers to. He’s doing exactly what people telling stories generations down the line will talk about him doing, for the exact, very iconic reasons.

He’s in a story, and the way he’s being addressed is hinting that the Named around him see it too.

Also, the Blood/blood thing Barrow Sword was talking about might be referring to that, though I’ll listen if you have an alternative interpretation."

Is there any example of a Named coming into their Name this late in life, though? All of the prominent ones I can think of off the top of my head seem to have come into their names in their 20s, yes there are a few old ones (on the Good side, since the Evil ones stop ageing entirely), but none of them started old, that I can think of, and their age is just an indication that they're just very good at what they do.

GW

[Mith]

Is there any example of a Named coming into their Name this late in life, though? All of the prominent ones I can think of off the top of my head seem to have come into their names in their 20s, yes there are a few old ones (on the Good side, since the Evil ones stop ageing entirely), but none of them started old, that I can think of, and their age is just an indication that they're just very good at what they do.

GW

The Royal Conjuror is a solid example iirc, since mh understanding from that 5 stories chapter is that they all only come into thier Names by the end of the chapter.

[HolyDraconus]

so the way i read this new chapter is the White Knight is starting to doubt? Since Justice is still hampered him taking justice into his own hands sounds like a recipe for disaster. So much so that I am not surprised that his connection to the Light is ebbing. I wonder if he could Fall though. From what this novel has shown me about this world, good doesn't necessarily mean Good or Right. But would he really do something that would cost him his Name?

[Tvtyrant]

so the way i read this new chapter is the White Knight is starting to doubt? Since Justice is still hampered him taking justice into his own hands sounds like a recipe for disaster. So much so that I am not surprised that his connection to the Light is ebbing. I wonder if he could Fall though. From what this novel has shown me about this world, good doesn't necessarily mean Good or Right. But would he really do something that would cost him his Name?

It's not doubt that there is a Justice IMO. It is realization that inaction in the face of doubt is still inaction. He is complacent in mass murder because he didn't do anything, and he didn't do anything because he wasn't certain in his course of action. "I do not judge" also means "I do not act."

[Forum Explorer]

so the way i read this new chapter is the White Knight is starting to doubt? Since Justice is still hampered him taking justice into his own hands sounds like a recipe for disaster. So much so that I am not surprised that his connection to the Light is ebbing. I wonder if he could Fall though. From what this novel has shown me about this world, good doesn't necessarily mean Good or Right. But would he really do something that would cost him his Name?

I doubt the White Knight will actually fall. I think it's more doubting his position. He's Heaven's Enforcer of Justice, but without Heaven's mandate what even is justice?

And really that is a good question, because every culture in the world has a different answer to that question. With answers varying so much that it can be doubtful that justice actually exists at all. For someone who operates on a level above most laws, that is really troubling and hard to deal with.

Then you get into stuff of necessary evils taken in the moment for the greater good. Like this whole situation with The Iron Prince. Hanno stood by and let it happen, because he recognized that something needed to be done. And while maybe Klaus' actions were overly harsh and perhaps there was a better path, Hanno certainly wasn't offering any solutions. Kinda like what happened with Cat and Cordelia. Hanno didn't offer a better path, so they did what they thought was necessary. And while he doesn't really approve, no one will listen to his criticism because he didn't even try and offer something else.

I think what Hanno needs to learn is that you can't just passively expect people to be just and good. You need to actively forge a better path, and than actively guide people on that path. Because that seems to be a problem with the Heroes in general. They just passively react to existing problems and expect to win through the grace of the Heavens. There are very few examples of Heroes proactively trying to understand and foil Villains, before their plots even begin.

[HolyDraconus]

It's not doubt that there is a Justice IMO. It is realization that inaction in the face of doubt is still inaction. He is complacent in mass murder because he didn't do anything, and he didn't do anything because he wasn't certain in his course of action. "I do not judge" also means "I do not act."
He stood by when the Grey Pilgrim created a super plague just to capture Black. Where was those that was innocent's Justice? Did they deserve to die cause they happened to be in the same area?

I doubt the White Knight will actually fall. I think it's more doubting his position. He's Heaven's Enforcer of Justice, but without Heaven's mandate what even is justice?

And really that is a good question, because every culture in the world has a different answer to that question. With answers varying so much that it can be doubtful that justice actually exists at all. For someone who operates on a level above most laws, that is really troubling and hard to deal with.

Then you get into stuff of necessary evils taken in the moment for the greater good. Like this whole situation with The Iron Prince. Hanno stood by and let it happen, because he recognized that something needed to be done. And while maybe Klaus' actions were overly harsh and perhaps there was a better path, Hanno certainly wasn't offering any solutions. Kinda like what happened with Cat and Cordelia. Hanno didn't offer a better path, so they did what they thought was necessary. And while he doesn't really approve, no one will listen to his criticism because he didn't even try and offer something else.

I think what Hanno needs to learn is that you can't just passively expect people to be just and good. You need to actively forge a better path, and than actively guide people on that path. Because that seems to be a problem with the Heroes in general. They just passively react to existing problems and expect to win through the grace of the Heavens. There are very few examples of Heroes proactively trying to understand and foil Villains, before their plots even begin.
I kinda disagree. He CAN fall. Knowledge is like that, and I wouldn't be surprised that he asked just the right questions for him to go splat. Hells, he should be learning that right now by questioning why Justice hasn't answered ANY of his questions. In a way, the madman that usurped Justice is right. And if White Knight comes to that realization I believe it will be then that he will be stripped of his powers like he was a 3rd edition paladin.

[Rydiro]

It's not doubt that there is a Justice IMO. It is realization that inaction in the face of doubt is still inaction. He is complacent in mass murder because he didn't do anything, and he didn't do anything because he wasn't certain in his course of action. "I do not judge" also means "I do not act." I think heroes draw their power from doing what they believe is right and good. Thats why the mirror knight can get away with his atrocious choices. He really is that deluded and full of himself. With a childs understanding of people, politics and consequences.

[Forum Explorer]

He stood by when the Grey Pilgrim created a super plague just to capture Black. Where was those that was innocent's Justice? Did they deserve to die cause they happened to be in the same area?

I kinda disagree. He CAN fall. Knowledge is like that, and I wouldn't be surprised that he asked just the right questions for him to go splat. Hells, he should be learning that right now by questioning why Justice hasn't answered ANY of his questions. In a way, the madman that usurped Justice is right. And if White Knight comes to that realization I believe it will be then that he will be stripped of his powers like he was a 3rd edition paladin.

There is can fall and will fall. Can the White Knight fall? Certainly. Will he though? That's I doubt. He losing power because he's doubting himself, not because he's doubting the Heaven's or the Seraphim. And it might take some prompting and effort on his part, but I'd expect him to come to a conclusion about what he needs to do and thus regain his power.

[The Glyphstone]

So White Knight is evolving, and Tariq doesn't want Catherine to hit B-button.

[HolyDraconus]

So White Knight is evolving, and Tariq doesn't want Catherine to hit B-button.

Tariq admitted, like i guessed earlier, that the White Knight CAN lose his Name if he botches this up. So when super old hero of Good says he can Fall, and asks the second penultimate Villain to not meddle, it means something. The more that this goes on the more I will believe that Cat is going to be the only one holding up the Accords. Hanno has a real chance of screwing this whole thing, and if he Falls, the bloody Terms will die. At that point i wont be surprised that the only thing keeping the Named from fighting is that Pilgrim steps up in the White Knight's place till its over. And people already doubt him. Hells, if Hanno Falls.... war or not, its going to be a bloodbath of Named.

[MammonAzrael]

Tariq admitted, like i guessed earlier, that the White Knight CAN lose his Name if he botches this up. So when super old hero of Good says he can Fall, and asks the second penultimate Villain to not meddle, it means something. The more that this goes on the more I will believe that Cat is going to be the only one holding up the Accords. Hanno has a real chance of screwing this whole thing, and if he Falls, the bloody Terms will die. At that point i wont be surprised that the only thing keeping the Named from fighting is that Pilgrim steps up in the White Knight's place till its over. And people already doubt him. Hells, if Hanno Falls.... war or not, its going to be a bloodbath of Named.

While this conversation does address the possibility of the White Knight falling, I don't think that's the main thrust. Narratively, the Grey Pilgrim's bet that he will come through the journey renewed and stronger is much more likely (albeit with some kind of twist). I think more relevant is the fact that Hanno and Tariq are, effectively, the two most impactful and relevant heroes on Calernia, here they are going to the preeminent villian (that isn't Sealed Evil in a Can) to ask for non-interference. In a different framing, they are seeking Cat's permission over an internal "hero matter" because they recognize her ability to impact it, which is a big hunk of narrative power to feed her burgeoning Name as some sort of neutral Arbiter of Names.

[Tvtyrant]

Tariq admitted, like i guessed earlier, that the White Knight CAN lose his Name if he botches this up. So when super old hero of Good says he can Fall, and asks the second penultimate Villain to not meddle, it means something. The more that this goes on the more I will believe that Cat is going to be the only one holding up the Accords. Hanno has a real chance of screwing this whole thing, and if he Falls, the bloody Terms will die. At that point i wont be surprised that the only thing keeping the Named from fighting is that Pilgrim steps up in the White Knight's place till its over. And people already doubt him. Hells, if Hanno Falls.... war or not, its going to be a bloodbath of Named.

It's going to be anyway. No system is solid until it cracks somehow and enforcement is tested. The Accords were always going to have an MCU style conflict where heroes and villains fight together against heroes and villains, remaking the lines of conflict from pro-above and below to pro or anti accord.

[HolyDraconus]

While this conversation does address the possibility of the White Knight falling, I don't think that's the main thrust. Narratively, the Grey Pilgrim's bet that he will come through the journey renewed and stronger is much more likely (albeit with some kind of twist). I think more relevant is the fact that Hanno and Tariq are, effectively, the two most impactful and relevant heroes on Calernia, here they are going to the preeminent villian (that isn't Sealed Evil in a Can) to ask for non-interference. In a different framing, they are seeking Cat's permission over an internal "hero matter" because they recognize her ability to impact it, which is a big hunk of narrative power to feed her burgeoning Name as some sort of neutral Arbiter of Names.
thats true, but its plausible that her meddling could very well ensure he Falls. She has a LOT of power in this, and on how he could change. And its not too far of a stretch for him to become a premier Villain. Hells, look at Anakin. Not exactly the same but it can happen.

It's going to be anyway. No system is solid until it cracks somehow and enforcement is tested. The Accords were always going to have an MCU style conflict where heroes and villains fight together against heroes and villains, remaking the lines of conflict from pro-above and below to pro or anti accord.

but what i mean is that, up to this point, she wanted something that will last after her and without her. With how things are moving its possible that she's going to have to try again, or, she's going to have to stand alone doing this.

[Mith]

thats true, but its plausible that her meddling could very well ensure he Falls. She has a LOT of power in this, and on how he could change. And its not too far of a stretch for him to become a premier Villain. Hells, look at Anakin. Not exactly the same but it can happen.


but what i mean is that, up to this point, she wanted something that will last after her and without her. With how things are moving its possible that she's going to have to try again, or, she's going to have to stand alone doing this.

I don't think Cat is going to be entirely hands off. However, I think one theme that is going through this book is Cat mending rifts between her and close companions (or at least getting the break set so that it can heal). It would be interesting if instead of meddling as a villain (the demands of the queen) she just offers honest support. Especially if it is a surprise birthday present (return of the surprise of Hanno's gift of wakeleaf followed by the rather frank discussion). Hanno distrusts Cat because he sees her as being to "big picture" to care about people, which to me is the balance between demands of what she sees as a personal duty and what she wants to do. It would be a nice bundle of reciprocation, in my opinion.

[Tvtyrant]

thats true, but its plausible that her meddling could very well ensure he Falls. She has a LOT of power in this, and on how he could change. And its not too far of a stretch for him to become a premier Villain. Hells, look at Anakin. Not exactly the same but it can happen.


but what i mean is that, up to this point, she wanted something that will last after her and without her. With how things are moving its possible that she's going to have to try again, or, she's going to have to stand alone doing this.

I don't think that's where it is going. The Truce and Terms are going to win, too many people are invested now for them to fail. There is going to be a horrific civil war to keep them after they kill off the KotD, and Cat's Name is going to become an issue. She can't be Queen of the Named for the Truce to do what she wants, which is turn power over to institutions from super heroes. Eventually Cat has to leave for the T&T to actually do their job, but with how jealous Cat is of power how is she going to do that?

In other words, the Girl Who Climbs the Tower is a very apt song for Cat even if she is not in Praes. The T&T are about reducing the effect of cosmic conflicts on the common person, but so far she has:

1. Worked with the invaders of her home to fight off a Crusade and then watched them destroy the breadbasket of her rival.
2. Helped unleash the King of the Dead on all civilians on the continent.
3. Unsettled the Drow who are stronger than Named and promised them land.
4. Helped unleash several brutal civil wars across the continent.

She's 0/4 in making the common person's lives better, and 4/0 for concentrating power into her own hands. Her Name looks like it will help with the Latter, the question is if any of this helps the former.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think that's where it is going. The Truce and Terms are going to win, too many people are invested now for them to fail. There is going to be a horrific civil war to keep them after they kill off the KotD, and Cat's Name is going to become an issue. She can't be Queen of the Named for the Truce to do what she wants, which is turn power over to institutions from super heroes. Eventually Cat has to leave for the T&T to actually do their job, but with how jealous Cat is of power how is she going to do that?

In other words, the Girl Who Climbs the Tower is a very apt song for Cat even if she is not in Praes. The T&T are about reducing the effect of cosmic conflicts on the common person, but so far she has:

1. Worked with the invaders of her home to fight off a Crusade and then watched them destroy the breadbasket of her rival.
2. Helped unleash the King of the Dead on all civilians on the continent.
3. Unsettled the Drow who are stronger than Named and promised them land.
4. Helped unleash several brutal civil wars across the continent.

She's 0/4 in making the common person's lives better, and 4/0 for concentrating power into her own hands. Her Name looks like it will help with the Latter, the question is if any of this helps the former.

1. Fair, though it's not like she really could have stopped that except by allowing Callow to be subjected by Procer
2. On the contrary, it has been made clear that the Dead King would've been unleashed no matter what. While she would've unleashed him in a more restrained fashion, he ended up being unleashed entirely by Malicia with no input from Cat at all.
3. She saved the common drow from being exterminated en mass by the Dwarves and has helped establish a culture for the drow that isn't just rampant murder and backstabbing.
4. Which civil wars? Praes? She was involved in that sure, but Praes is a sack full of intelligent wet tigers at the best of times. Procer? She's actively working to stop a civil war from happening. The Dominion? Is stable. The Free Cities? She did basically nothing to cause that. She didn't do anything to prevent it to be fair, but she didn't cause it either. I guess that leaves Callow itself, which happened before the Truce and Terms were even a thought in her head. Back than she thought Named ruling were perfectly fine.

As for actually making the common folk's lives better, she's squashed the corruption of the Praes governors, she prevented her people from being conquered by Procer, she stopped The Diabolist from becoming the next Dread Empress, she's fought and defeated demons and devils, prevented Summer and Winter from conquering her people, she saved the drow from extermination, and she stepped forward to prevent Keter from wiping out Procer.

[Mith]

I don't think that's where it is going. The Truce and Terms are going to win, too many people are invested now for them to fail. There is going to be a horrific civil war to keep them after they kill off the KotD, and Cat's Name is going to become an issue. She can't be Queen of the Named for the Truce to do what she wants, which is turn power over to institutions from super heroes. Eventually Cat has to leave for the T&T to actually do their job, but with how jealous Cat is of power how is she going to do that?

In other words, the Girl Who Climbs the Tower is a very apt song for Cat even if she is not in Praes. The T&T are about reducing the effect of cosmic conflicts on the common person, but so far she has:

1. Worked with the invaders of her home to fight off a Crusade and then watched them destroy the breadbasket of her rival.
2. Helped unleash the King of the Dead on all civilians on the continent.
3. Unsettled the Drow who are stronger than Named and promised them land.
4. Helped unleash several brutal civil wars across the continent.

She's 0/4 in making the common person's lives better, and 4/0 for concentrating power into her own hands. Her Name looks like it will help with the Latter, the question is if any of this helps the former.

1. I fail to see what the better option was for her. Taking Praes out of the equation, Callow still would have fought Procer. Having Praes as an ally limited the fronts she needed to fight on.
She had no input in Black's implementation of Bonfire. You can say that she should have put effort into retieving him immediately, but could she have afforded to do that with everything else on her plate?

2. I feel that Keter to Everdark is really Cat's descent and start of her rise in the path of Traditional Evil in Calarnia, and where those goals lead. She was used as pressure on Malicia by the Dead king with regards to their treaty negotiation, but none of Cat's aid was deliberate aid to the current situation. While not a good action, and intent, I don't think that her actions ultimately change the current situation beyond the fact that Callow is less threatened than it could have otherwise been.

3. The drow were going to be driven to extinction by the Kingdom Under. Her attempt at enslaving the drow is a mark against her, and I would describe her current work as First Under Night as reparations for those actions from a certain point of view. I feel that the entire point of the story with the drow is that they may hold a belief system that is alien to our own based on how their society functions, but they are still a people and culture that should be treated as such. Look to the development of a new Secret mentioned in the first raid on the Hollow. I would honestly describe Cat's tenure as First Under Night as a mark in favour of trying to make the world a better place for the common people.

4. Not sure where "several" civil wars being unleashed by her actions. I count the two Liesse rebellions and that's about it. Everything else is really other actors as the primary cause.

Part of me does wonder if Cat dies at the end of the series because she has acknowledged may times in the last few books (see her last words to Good King Edward regarding how she must abdicate once she has fulfilled her role, and the reaffirmation of her promise to Vivienne after Arsenal. If we are saying that she ends up being the sole pillar holding up the value of the Accords, I could see her arranging a sacrifice that both removes her from the picture, and sets the groove in Creation to anchor the Accords.

I would argue that Cat's contribution to Callow is mostly in the form of removing the Praesi occupation in a fashion that allows for Vivienne to "actually better the people of Callow". Of course it's easier to do that in times of peace, but Cat doesn't expect to be remembered as anything more than a barely tolerated monster.

[Tvtyrant]

1. I fail to see what the better option was for her. Taking Praes out of the equation, Callow still would have fought Procer. Having Praes as an ally limited the fronts she needed to fight on.
She had no input in Black's implementation of Bonfire. You can say that she should have put effort into retieving him immediately, but could she have afforded to do that with everything else on her plate?

2. I feel that Keter to Everdark is really Cat's descent and start of her rise in the path of Traditional Evil in Calarnia, and where those goals lead. She was used as pressure on Malicia by the Dead king with regards to their treaty negotiation, but none of Cat's aid was deliberate aid to the current situation. While not a good action, and intent, I don't think that her actions ultimately change the current situation beyond the fact that Callow is less threatened than it could have otherwise been.

3. The drow were going to be driven to extinction by the Kingdom Under. Her attempt at enslaving the drow is a mark against her, and I would describe her current work as First Under Night as reparations for those actions from a certain point of view. I feel that the entire point of the story with the drow is that they may hold a belief system that is alien to our own based on how their society functions, but they are still a people and culture that should be treated as such. Look to the development of a new Secret mentioned in the first raid on the Hollow. I would honestly describe Cat's tenure as First Under Night as a mark in favour of trying to make the world a better place for the common people.

4. Not sure where "several" civil wars being unleashed by her actions. I count the two Liesse rebellions and that's about it. Everything else is really other actors as the primary cause.

Part of me does wonder if Cat dies at the end of the series because she has acknowledged may times in the last few books (see her last words to Good King Edward regarding how she must abdicate once she has fulfilled her role, and the reaffirmation of her promise to Vivienne after Arsenal. If we are saying that she ends up being the sole pillar holding up the value of the Accords, I could see her arranging a sacrifice that both removes her from the picture, and sets the groove in Creation to anchor the Accords.

I would argue that Cat's contribution to Callow is mostly in the form of removing the Praesi occupation in a fashion that allows for Vivienne to "actually better the people of Callow". Of course it's easier to do that in times of peace, but Cat doesn't expect to be remembered as anything more than a barely tolerated monster.


1. Fair, though it's not like she really could have stopped that except by allowing Callow to be subjected by Procer
2. On the contrary, it has been made clear that the Dead King would've been unleashed no matter what. While she would've unleashed him in a more restrained fashion, he ended up being unleashed entirely by Malicia with no input from Cat at all.
3. She saved the common drow from being exterminated en mass by the Dwarves and has helped establish a culture for the drow that isn't just rampant murder and backstabbing.
4. Which civil wars? Praes? She was involved in that sure, but Praes is a sack full of intelligent wet tigers at the best of times. Procer? She's actively working to stop a civil war from happening. The Dominion? Is stable. The Free Cities? She did basically nothing to cause that. She didn't do anything to prevent it to be fair, but she didn't cause it either. I guess that leaves Callow itself, which happened before the Truce and Terms were even a thought in her head. Back than she thought Named ruling were perfectly fine.

As for actually making the common folk's lives better, she's squashed the corruption of the Praes governors, she prevented her people from being conquered by Procer, she stopped The Diabolist from becoming the next Dread Empress, she's fought and defeated demons and devils, prevented Summer and Winter from conquering her people, she saved the drow from extermination, and she stepped forward to prevent Keter from wiping out Procer.
Apologies, I haven't reread this in a while and it might be getting hazy in my head. I concede a lot of your points, I did a few point by point rebuttals but its a wall of text for what amounts to nitpicking.

[druid91]

Honestly, I never really got the whole enslaving the Drow issue.

She went in, found out that the Drow follow whoever is strongest, and went about proving herself the strongest so they would follow her. That's not really slavery.

[Forum Explorer]

Honestly, I never really got the whole enslaving the Drow issue.

She went in, found out that the Drow follow whoever is strongest, and went about proving herself the strongest so they would follow her. That's not really slavery.

The slavery part was making them take oaths that they had to follow.

[Tvtyrant]

Honestly, I never really got the whole enslaving the Drow issue.

She went in, found out that the Drow follow whoever is strongest, and went about proving herself the strongest so they would follow her. That's not really slavery.

She spiked the Night with Winter so it would kill people who betrayed her, and auctioned off Night so whoever was indentured longest would get the most.

As an aside I'm reasonably certain the whole thing is based on the Zerg arc in SCII with Kerrigan on Zerus.

[Mith]

Apologies, I haven't reread this in a while and it might be getting hazy in my head. I concede a lot of your points, I did a few point by point rebuttals but its a wall of text for what amounts to nitpicking.

Sorry if it felt like a pile on. Part of the reason I like story discussion is that they often point out things that I missed in text that does change interpretation. Since your read was different than what my understanding was, it was more of a "were are we getting the different reading from?" than any critical challenge. My apologies if it came across as hostile in any way.

On the subject of Cat and the drow, if you argue that she did unto them what they do to each other, and they have chained themselves and each other to the sacrificial alter, than she came in as a slaver and "liberator". There are always reasonable justifications, so to speak, but they are always only justifications.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There are always reasonable justifications

"Justifications only matter to the Just", I hear.

GW

[Tvtyrant]

Sorry if it felt like a pile on. Part of the reason I like story discussion is that they often point out things that I missed in text that does change interpretation. Since your read was different than what my understanding was, it was more of a "were are we getting the different reading from?" than any critical challenge. My apologies if it came across as hostile in any way.

On the subject of Cat and the drow, if you argue that she did unto them what they do to each other, and they have chained themselves and each other to the sacrificial alter, than she came in as a slaver and "liberator". There are always reasonable justifications, so to speak, but they are always only justifications.

No no, I didn't feel like there was hostility there. I reconsidered some of my positions in light of the arguments and decided I was mostly wrong. The real hazy part is from Cat's going to the KotD, an arc where I almost abandoned the story and I barely remember what happened because I simultaneously read all the Wildbow stories there. I'm sure my dislike of the arc between the end of Summer and the loss of Winter taints my feelings about what Cat was doing there.