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View Full Version : [Exalted 2E] What does Cat-Face Presentation actually do?



Segev
2020-06-12, 04:40 PM
This Lunar Charm in the Manipulation tree says that it "supplements a (Manipulation + Socialize) roll to conceal the intention to make a social attack, making it an unexpected attack." The only other thing it says is that only supernatural perceptions see through the deception.

The rules for establishing surprise in social combat in Exalted 2E say that it is, indeed, a (Manipulation + Socialize) roll to do so, changing the subject subtly enough that the target doesn't realize a social attack is coming from this new angle. The target gets to oppose this with (Perception + Investigation), and is not surprised by the new social attack if the (Manipulation + Socialize) roll fails to overcome his successes. This is not, however, a social attack in and of itself.

Does Cat-Face Presentation obviate both rolls and automatically make the social attack a surprise attack, with no need to roll (Manipulation + Socialize) nor (Perception + Investigation), barring the use of Charms to negate surprise social attacks? Or does it still require the former roll while making the latter automatically fail because it's made the (Manipulation + Socialize) roll itself a surprise social attack?

Either way, am I reading it right that, barring magic on the defender's side, it basically lets the Lunar make any social attack he wants as a surprise social attack? Does he still need at least one success on (Manipulation + Socialize), with 0 successes still failing to (re)establish surprise?

GrayDeath
2020-06-13, 02:54 PM
As far as I understand it, it makes your normally NON SUrprise attack a Surprise attack.


It nowhere says it changes or removes the Roll necesaary (Hence supplement, not replace, or similar.).
And even a Surprise attack can fail, its just that your Defense against Surprise attacks is (in most cases) far worse.

So you dont see it coming, otherwise it works as usual, follows the regular roll rules, etc.

Segev
2020-06-14, 12:30 AM
As far as I understand it, it makes your normally NON SUrprise attack a Surprise attack.


It nowhere says it changes or removes the Roll necesaary (Hence supplement, not replace, or similar.).
And even a Surprise attack can fail, its just that your Defense against Surprise attacks is (in most cases) far worse.

So you dont see it coming, otherwise it works as usual, follows the regular roll rules, etc.

That's the problem; I'm not sure it does anything.

Without the Charm, the procedure to establish a surprise social attack is to roll (Manipulation+Socialize) vs. their (Perception+Investigation). If you have more successes than they do, the actual social attack that follows is unexpected and they don't get to apply an MDV.

With the Charm, you spend 3m and...what changes?

Friv
2020-06-14, 12:26 PM
This Lunar Charm in the Manipulation tree says that it "supplements a (Manipulation + Socialize) roll to conceal the intention to make a social attack, making it an unexpected attack." The only other thing it says is that only supernatural perceptions see through the deception.

My reading of that Charm is that the "only supernatural perceptions see through the deception" clause overrules the usual "people get to roll to see through the deception" clause, so if you use Cat-Faced Presentation, you don't have to roll to establish an unexpected attack unless your opponent uses a Charm to try to defend against you, at which point you revert to normal behaviour. I remember some pretty aggressive arguing back in the day about whether Excellencies count as supernatural perception, and I don't think there was ever a developer ruling on the subject.

GrayDeath
2020-06-14, 04:19 PM
OK, I jsut reread it.

Ina ddition tot eha bove Post, which is correct:

It makes any ONE following Social Attack Undodgable and Unblockable. (TM)

They are still dependant on differing Appearance, Intimacies, and Social Soak (AKA WIllpower spent to ignore it).

So it gives you The Kitty Advantage: Looking cute and totally harmless until you show your claws.^^

Fitting, useful, but not more.

Segev
2020-06-14, 05:18 PM
My reading of that Charm is that the "only supernatural perceptions see through the deception" clause overrules the usual "people get to roll to see through the deception" clause, so if you use Cat-Faced Presentation, you don't have to roll to establish an unexpected attack unless your opponent uses a Charm to try to defend against you, at which point you revert to normal behaviour. I remember some pretty aggressive arguing back in the day about whether Excellencies count as supernatural perception, and I don't think there was ever a developer ruling on the subject.
Okay, that makes a certain amount of sense. The wording certainly could be clearer. Given precedent from Fair Folk Charms about what constitutes supernatural opposition, excellencies probably DO apply. Which sadly makes it not great against supernatural foes (though outside of house rules, many won't have the excellency even if they technically could). But automatic sneak attacks in social situations for 3m against mortals is still really nice: they're either spending wp or they're changing their mind, because surprise attacks make MDV unable to be brought to bear at all.

OK, I jsut reread it.

Ina ddition tot eha bove Post, which is correct:

It makes any ONE following Social Attack Undodgable and Unblockable. (TM)

They are still dependant on differing Appearance, Intimacies, and Social Soak (AKA WIllpower spent to ignore it).

So it gives you The Kitty Advantage: Looking cute and totally harmless until you show your claws.^^

Fitting, useful, but not more.

Only the willpower, actually; Appearance differential adjusts MDV, which the unexpected nature of the attack renders unusable.

Written social attacks, of course, take the cake here, as they often do: Use Cat-Face Presentation to conceal your hidden agenda and mortals who read the Performance-based social attack won't even realize their minds were changed until after the point's been driven home.


Thanks for the discussion; it's helped me get a better idea what it's doing. The mention of the (Manipulation + Socialize) roll confused me, and the way it discusses the thing becoming an unexpected social attack muddied it further, but having it just make the named roll unopposable without magic makes sense.

Friv
2020-06-14, 06:03 PM
Okay, that makes a certain amount of sense. The wording certainly could be clearer. Given precedent from Fair Folk Charms about what constitutes supernatural opposition, excellencies probably DO apply. Which sadly makes it not great against supernatural foes (though outside of house rules, many won't have the excellency even if they technically could). But automatic sneak attacks in social situations for 3m against mortals is still really nice: they're either spending wp or they're changing their mind, because surprise attacks make MDV unable to be brought to bear at all.

And even more powerfully, you can Combo it with the Charm that makes it Unnatural Mental Influence and removes the ability to become immune for the scene, and break down mortals really fast without them realizing what you're up to. This was, IIRC, two-thirds of my old Pretty Kitty Revolution effect (the third one was the one that lets you make social attacks without speaking, so that you could just walk around as a cat and everyone who sees you decides it's time to overthrow the king.)

Segev
2020-06-14, 07:38 PM
And even more powerfully, you can Combo it with the Charm that makes it Unnatural Mental Influence and removes the ability to become immune for the scene, and break down mortals really fast without them realizing what you're up to. This was, IIRC, two-thirds of my old Pretty Kitty Revolution effect (the third one was the one that lets you make social attacks without speaking, so that you could just walk around as a cat and everyone who sees you decides it's time to overthrow the king.)

The third one is Glance-Oration Technique, which is quite cool. I'm not familiar with the UMI one; I'll have to hunt it down. I probably will find it before you reply, but in case I don't, could you give the name of it (if you remember it), please?

Friv
2020-06-14, 08:52 PM
Charismatic Lunar Trick is the one I was thinking of.

It is worth noting that, while powerful, the Combo is much less overwhelming in 2.0, because you still only needed 1 WP to resist UMI, and the more cost of the Combo pretty much requires you to keep stunting notes back or else start flaring heavily. In 2.5, since you can drain multiple WP at once based on threshold successes and you were opposing an MDV of 0, you could wipe people out fast.

Segev
2020-06-15, 01:26 AM
Charismatic Lunar Trick is the one I was thinking of.

It is worth noting that, while powerful, the Combo is much less overwhelming in 2.0, because you still only needed 1 WP to resist UMI, and the more cost of the Combo pretty much requires you to keep stunting notes back or else start flaring heavily. In 2.5, since you can drain multiple WP at once based on threshold successes and you were opposing an MDV of 0, you could wipe people out fast.

I am thinking 2.5; I should have specified.

And really, I think it important for players and especially STs to evaluate whether mental influence is worth the WP expenditure to the character. For players controlling PCs, this isn’t much of a shift in thought process. More just a careful evaluation of resource management and what is really being asked if them.

For STs controlling more or less disposable NPCs, though, remembering that the character has other things to spend his spoons on can make the difference between a social character being effective and a social character having to make people miserably exhausted to get them to change their mind about where to go for dinner.

I’ve even seen players and STs who think that it’s “obvious” that the proper response to anybody engaging in persuasion attempts is to roll join battle!

Friv
2020-06-15, 02:10 PM
Oh, sure. You can use the Combo in 2.0 to really easily make people do things without quite knowing why. It's pretty powerful, because most people won't spend Willpower for things that aren't really important.

But in 2.5 you can easily use the Combo to make people spend 3-4 Willpower or else embark on the overthrow of their monarch, and unless they're so loyal that revolution is an Unacceptable Order, they'll do it. You can suggest that someone leave all the money they own in a bag by the river as an offering to the spirits, and unless owning money is their core Motivation, they'll do it. You can walk past someone and spark a murderous riot in which every person in the square decides that they hate every other person with every fiber of their beings, and anyone who doesn't have pacifism as a core principle will start murdering.

And if they spend the Willpower, you can just do it again a few minutes later. The power of UMI to make people do almost anything is pretty staggering once people have to spend more than 1 WP to resist. And because you're doing it from surprise with no visible social interaction, they have no way to stop you or to leave.

Segev
2020-06-15, 02:59 PM
Oh, sure. You can use the Combo in 2.0 to really easily make people do things without quite knowing why. It's pretty powerful, because most people won't spend Willpower for things that aren't really important.

But in 2.5 you can easily use the Combo to make people spend 3-4 Willpower or else embark on the overthrow of their monarch, and unless they're so loyal that revolution is an Unacceptable Order, they'll do it. You can suggest that someone leave all the money they own in a bag by the river as an offering to the spirits, and unless owning money is their core Motivation, they'll do it. You can walk past someone and spark a murderous riot in which every person in the square decides that they hate every other person with every fiber of their beings, and anyone who doesn't have pacifism as a core principle will start murdering.

And if they spend the Willpower, you can just do it again a few minutes later. The power of UMI to make people do almost anything is pretty staggering once people have to spend more than 1 WP to resist. And because you're doing it from surprise with no visible social interaction, they have no way to stop you or to leave.

True. The compulsion aspect of mental influence in 2e is a little strong. IIRC, one of the thing 3e did was make that a bit harder to pull off by making it require existing intimacies to play off of, rather than merely making it easier with existing intimacies.

But that is a cool thing, from a PC perspective. And a good reason for Solar group/society Charms to engrain things as more unacceptable and/or to allow the Solar to expend Loyalty (And probably get a hint something's up) as a response!