You Have 100 CR to Make Your Army [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

SociopathFriend

2020-06-12, 06:58 PM

ProsecutorGodot

2020-06-12, 07:10 PM

800 kobolds

EDIT: I've got some more time now so I'll start on a more serious answer, although it's unlikely to be very different from the others.

I'll start first by saying, I had Tiamat in my initial quick post but thought that would be out of the requirements since Tiamat is not a MM entry. If we're nitpicking, there are a few suggestions that use creatures not found in the monster manual.

3 Death Tyrants (42)
10 Orc War Chief (40)
80 Bandits (10)
16 Shadows (8)

The battle plan is entirely attrition. Put them in an enclosed area where the only options are escape or fight, and escape would be difficult. The Death Tyrants would need to be killed off early or the Bandits/Orcs killed off in a way that destroys their bodies otherwise the PC's will never lower their numbers disadvantage. The Orc War Chief gives advantage to each creature that can hear it for a turn once per day, up to ten times. Shadows can be used to try and cheese kill any feeble casters.

Dr. Cliché

2020-06-12, 07:17 PM

This raises some interesting questions of efficiency and probability.

e.g. I'm wondering whether it would be better to have something like 15 Medusas (for Petrifying Gaze) or Mind Flayers (for Mind Blast), with the idea being that the PCs will all fail their saves sooner or later. And as soon as they do, they're basically out of the fight.

Yakmala

2020-06-12, 07:27 PM

400 Pixies, ready to Polymorth whatever the other army brings to the table into caterpillars.

CheddarChampion

2020-06-12, 07:29 PM

A Kraken (23) and five Beholders (5x13=65). Maybe some creatures that can heal the beholders.
A room that you have to climb/fly down into. At the bottom there's a room 50' long, 30' wide, 15' tall. One end opens into a very deep pool of water and takes up 30' by 20' of space, so it goes wall to wall.
The kraken can emerge from this pool. The farthest you can get away from the kraken without leaving the room is 30', which puts you in its reach at all times.
No light sources, of course.

The 15' thick walls have arrow slits that the beholders look through. The beholders use their antimagic cones to cover the whole room or to look at each party member individually.
The kraken is immune to BPS damage from nonmagical weapons. The antimagic cones cause any magical weapons that aren't artifacts to deal 0 damage to the kraken. Spells are moot, of course.
The kraken can submerge itself at the end of its turns to avoid torches and vials of acid. The kraken's first move is to attack any ropes used to climb down into the room to prevent escape. The antimagic cones prevent magical escape.

Your best bet is to attack through the arrow slits and kill the beholders. Note that the walls are 15' thick, there's no light, and the beholders have at least 3/4 cover.

-Edit-
Poisoned weapons, if they are brought along, can work very well here.

Kane0

2020-06-12, 07:30 PM

Ooh now this is a challenge I can get behind!

1x Pit Fiend (20 CR)
1x Rakshasa (13 CR)
1x Mind Flayer (7 CR)
4x Elemental (20 CR)
2x Wraith (10 CR)
2x Banshee (8 CR)
4x Intellect Devourer (8 CR)
4x Will O' Wisp (8 CR)
1x Animated Armor (1 CR)
20x Flying Sword (5 CR)

False God

2020-06-12, 07:41 PM

25 weretigers(CR4).

1: They're infectious. Everyone who survives a fight could potentially become a new recruit or at least an internal risk to the enemy.
2: Complete immunity to mundane damage. All damage must be magical or silvered. Dramatically increases the cost to the enemy.
3: They're shapechangers, meaning they'll excel at infiltration attacks, requiring the enemy to invest in magical detection services.
4: Their default alignment is neutral, meaning they're not going to be a bunch of insane murder-clowns.
5: All of their forms are normative enough to be equipped with normal armor/barding, and their human and hybrid forms can wield normal weapons.
6: They have a pretty good amount HP for their CR.
7: As sentient/intelligent creatures, they could also potentially take class levels.

MaxWilson

2020-06-12, 08:01 PM

Simply put- the idea is to create the most difficult force for an Adventuring Party of five to defeat.

The Monsters must be in the Monster Manual and have a listed CR.
The CR 'cost' is the CR of the Monster.

You could, for example, have five CR 20 creatures, four CR 20 creatures and five CR 4 creatures, and so on.
You could have two hundred CR 1/2 creatures if you wanted.

Any Liches or Vampires or other 'need specific items or locations to permanently kill' will require the items in question to be in the same area.
Feel free to include the environment you would like the Army to be in BUT it must not be entirely underwater, in a vacuum, atop a cloud, or any other location that an Adventurer cannot reliably access without magic.

Any summoned/created creatures DO count towards that CR cap. So no limitless Mummy Lord army.
No Wish or Simulacrum abuse (I don't think any Monsters have those but doesn't hurt to be thorough)

Any takers?

Oh, just for fun, I'm going to say I'll take 4 Neogi Masters, 4 Star Spawn Manglers, 4 Star Spawn Grues, and 10 Skulks, plus Tiamat and Sul Khatesh.

Neogi Masters spam Hold Person V at short range and Eldritch Blast at long range, Star Spawn Manglers rip any paralyzed PCs to shreds with 12d8+24d6+24 (162) worth of Flurry of Claws auto-crit mostly-psychic damage each whenever Flurry of claws is available, Skulks use their Stealth +8 and built-in invisibility to get close and then hammer the victim with claws and necrotic damage. Star Spawn grues get in the way and impose disadvantage on PC attacks and saving throws. Sul Khatesh shuts down magic with Arcane Cataclysm while Tiamat mangles whatever is left over.

Neogi Masters also have Counterspell to shut down PC wizards, and they use it freely to shut down any spells even including Shield.

Environment: underground unlit adamantium cage 100 yards across, roughly circular, no exits until all monsters are defeated. Darkness lets the Manglers hide, and makes the most of Sul Khatesh/Tiamat's/Neogis' vision advantages. I could probably be even more of a jerk by making the area smaller (80' diameter cage) so that there's no way to get out of Sul Khatesh's Arcane Cataclysm anti-magic zones, but I want to make it at least possible for the PCs to win.

I'm sure there are more powerful combos possible but I just happen to like all of these monsters.

Potato_Priest

2020-06-12, 08:08 PM

3 Solars (Total challenge 63). The slaying longbow attack is ridiculously deadly, and they are exceptionally mobile and long ranged with the ability to heal as well as resurrect other monsters and each other. They will fly up into the air and try to fight at long range.

2 Beholders (26, bringing my total to 89)- Approach the party and lock them down with the antimagic field eye rays. Outside of a sharpshooter with a longbow, the party is going to need to kill both of them before they can touch the solars.

1 Korred (7, bringing my total to 96). This fella will go underground to surprise the party with nasty boulder attacks and entangling hair before retreating beneath the earth. His job is to harass them and use his hair to slow their approach to the beholders.

16 Pixies (CR 4, Completing the Army). These guys are supposed to hang around invisible primarily to dispel problematic spells the players manage to sneak through the beholders' eye rays, and use polymorph and phantasmal force to disable and distract PCs as needed.

Environment: The open plains on a sunny day, with no help around for miles. Just knee-high grass tall enough to hide a pixie or ten.

Neogi Masters spam Hold Person V at short range and Eldritch Blast at long range, Star Spawn Manglers rip any paralyzed PCs to shreds with 12d8+24d6+24 (162) worth of Flurry of Claws auto-crit mostly-psychic damage each whenever Flurry of claws is available, Skulks use their Stealth +8 and built-in invisibility to get close and then hammer the victim with claws and necrotic damage. Star Spawn grues get in the way and impose disadvantage on PC attacks and saving throws. Sul Khatesh shuts down magic with Arcane Cataclysm while Tiamat mangles whatever is left over.

Man, I really like your use of the Neogi Masters here. Their ability to both hold person and counterspell is fabulous. I guess if the party has enough martials to quickly deal with the neogi they'd likely be a sitting duck for tiamat as well. Well done and a clever strategy.

A Kraken (23) and five Beholders (5x13=65). Maybe some creatures that can heal the beholders.
A room that you have to climb/fly down into. At the bottom there's a room 50' long, 30' wide, 15' tall. One end opens into a very deep pool of water and takes up 30' by 20' of space, so it goes wall to wall...

Another excellent and well thought out strategy. I might recommend two Unicorns to back up the beholders. Their Shimmering shield legendary action would add to the beholder's 3/4 cover quite nicely, and their healing ability neutralizes poisons, which you were worried this setup might be vulnerable to. They can also teleport the beholders out of trouble should the party somehow access them.

MaxWilson

2020-06-12, 09:06 PM

Thanks for the kind words. I like the way you're using Pixies for Dispel Magic--very efficient!

Nitpick: Resurrection takes an hour to cast, won't be relevant during combat.

==========================================

A Kraken (23) and five Beholders (5x13=65). Maybe some creatures that can heal the beholders.
A room that you have to climb/fly down into. At the bottom there's a room 50' long, 30' wide, 15' tall. One end opens into a very deep pool of water and takes up 30' by 20' of space, so it goes wall to wall.
The kraken can emerge from this pool. The farthest you can get away from the kraken without leaving the room is 30', which puts you in its reach at all times.
No light sources, of course.

The 15' thick walls have arrow slits that the beholders look through. The beholders use their antimagic cones to cover the whole room or to look at each party member individually.
The kraken is immune to BPS damage from nonmagical weapons. The antimagic cones cause any magical weapons that aren't artifacts to deal 0 damage to the kraken. Spells are moot, of course.
The kraken can submerge itself at the end of its turns to avoid torches and vials of acid. The kraken's first move is to attack any ropes used to climb down into the room to prevent escape. The antimagic cones prevent magical escape.

Your best bet is to attack through the arrow slits and kill the beholders. Note that the walls are 15' thick, there's no light, and the beholders have at least 3/4 cover.

-Edit-
Poisoned weapons, if they are brought along, can work very well here.

Swap out the beholders for a Sul Khatesh (CR 28 each, from Rising From the Last War) and a Tiamat, and now you've got three immune-to-normal-weapons monsters in a tiny enclosed space filled with antimagic zones. Even killing Sul Khatesh won't eliminate the antimagic zone, so unless your party is composed purely of monks (Ki-Empowered Strikes is unaffected by antimagic), pretty much the only thing you can do is outlast them, probably by fleeing (climbing the walls), which doesn't work great because Sul Khatesh and Tiamat can both fly, and BTW are both immune to poison.

Tiamat's fear aura can also be used to prevent PCs from fleeing (you can't move closer to something that you are Frightened of) and means that even monk fists (which can damage even in antimagic zones) will do negligible damage to any of the 3 monsters.

thereaper

2020-06-12, 10:55 PM

Where do people get this idea that immunity to nonmagical weapons isn't itself a magical trait? It clearly is.

MaxWilson

2020-06-12, 11:04 PM

Where do people get this idea that immunity to nonmagical weapons isn't itself a magical trait? It clearly is.

Hmm. I could see it either way, depending on the monster and what its body is made of, but for the sake of the game it's probably best to say you're right, especially for the monsters in question.

Touche.

thereaper

2020-06-12, 11:22 PM

Hmm. I could see it either way, depending on the monster and what its body is made of, but for the sake of the game it's probably best to say you're right, especially for the monsters in question.

Touche.

Well, let's think about it. The same attack, with the same force behind it, and it has different effects depending on whether said attack has magic in it, despite the magic having no effect on the force? That's clearly a magical defense. If it was a material thing, then the effect would be the same for magical and nonmagical weapons. The only force that treats magic and not-magic differently is, well, magic.

HappyDaze

2020-06-12, 11:29 PM

I'll start with a billion Commoners (goatherds) and 10 billion Goats. Now I just have to decide how to spend my remaining 100 CR...

Xihirli

2020-06-12, 11:41 PM

Enough seahorses to BLOT OUT THE SUN.

CheddarChampion

2020-06-12, 11:55 PM

Another excellent and well thought out strategy. I might recommend two Unicorns to back up the beholders. Their Shimmering shield legendary action would add to the beholder's 3/4 cover quite nicely, and their healing ability neutralizes poisons, which you were worried this setup might be vulnerable to. They can also teleport the beholders out of trouble should the party somehow access them.

Thank you. Unicorns would be perfect!

Swap out the beholders for a Sul Khatesh (CR 28 each, stats available here (https://5e.tools/bestiary/sul-khatesh-erlw.html)) and a Tiamat, and now you've got three immune-to-normal-weapons monsters in a tiny enclosed space filled with antimagic zones. Even killing Sul Khatesh won't eliminate the antimagic zone, so unless your party is composed purely of monks (Ki-Empowered Strikes is unaffected by antimagic), pretty much the only thing you can do is outlast them, probably by fleeing (climbing the walls), which doesn't work great because Sul Khatesh and Tiamat can both fly, and BTW are both immune to poison.

Tiamat's fear aura can also be used to prevent PCs from fleeing (you can't move closer to something that you are Frightened of) and means that even monk fists (which can damage even in antimagic zones) will do negligible damage to any of the 3 monsters.

Yes, this does seem harder to get around than my setup... well done.

CTurbo

2020-06-13, 12:52 AM

2 Ancient Black Dragons = CR42
5 Clay Golems = CR45
4 Black Puddings = CR12

Acid Breath will constantly heal the Clay Golems. I considered 3 Adult Black Dragons instead and may be a better option at the expense of 1 Black Pudding.

or

4 Empyrean = CR92 with 8CR leftover for whatever

or

Ancient Blue Dragon = CR23
Solar = CR21
Pit Fiend = CR20
Balor = CR19
Androsphinx = CR17

A good assortment of high CR monsters that would prove challenging for any 5 adventurers on their own.

Potato_Priest

2020-06-13, 03:36 AM

Nitpick: Resurrection takes an hour to cast, won't be relevant during combat.

Nice catch! I still think the solars are pretty good, but that definitely makes them less godlike. I guess in my strategy they'd just have to stick to healing the beholders to keep the party grounded.

JackPhoenix

2020-06-13, 07:34 AM

Where do people get this idea that immunity to nonmagical weapons isn't itself a magical trait? It clearly is.

It clearly isn't. We know what determines if a feature is magical or not:

Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:

• Is it a magic item?
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
• Is it a spell attack?
• Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
• Does its description say it’s magical?

If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.

Resistance or immunity to non-magic weapons doesn't fulfill any of the conditions.

Well, let's think about it. The same attack, with the same force behind it, and it has different effects depending on whether said attack has magic in it, despite the magic having no effect on the force? That's clearly a magical defense. If it was a material thing, then the effect would be the same for magical and nonmagical weapons. The only force that treats magic and not-magic differently is, well, magic.

If one attack is magic and the other isn't, it clearly isn't the same attack. It's not a matter of magical defense, but magical OFFENSE on part of the weapon.

da newt

2020-06-13, 07:37 AM

Using the CR calculator / XP thresholds etc, what level would the party of 5 be that should face a CR 100 hoard?

63,500 = 5 20th lvl PC deadly encounter XP threshold (12,700*5)

Total Monster XP:
80,000 = 800 cr 1/8
80,000 = 100 cr 1
90,000 = 50 cr 2
92,400 = 33 cr 3
110,000 = 25 cr 4
144,000 = 20 cr 5
147,500 = 10 cr 10
201,500 = 7 cr 14
250,000 = 5 cr 20
496,000 = 4 cr 24
930,000 = 3 cr 30

Chronos

2020-06-13, 07:59 AM

HappyDaze, I had the same thought, except I was going to go with lemures, instead. Bonus there is if I fit in just one greater devil (horned, erinyes, ice, or pit fiend), I can give any of my billion lemures battlefield promotions to anything from imp to bone devil.

Lvl 2 Expert

2020-06-13, 08:30 AM

We can't use class levels I gather?

Let's start with 20 minotaurs (CR3 = 60 points), in a kind of spacious but difficult to navigate underground tunnel system, where between Labyrinthine Recall and their speed of 40 they should have reasonable chances to hit and run with acceptable losses. This is kind of the base I just want to start from because I like minotaurs (if you couldn't tell from my avatar).
Then from the NPC section 5 priests (CR2 = 10 points) and 40 acolytes (CR1/4 = 10 points) for heals and buffs.
And for a little variety let's throw in 2 trolls (CR5 = 10 points), bringing their own regeneration, and serving as decently tanky recipients for a bunch of those buffs, and 5 ogres to be released when most needed (CR2 = 10 points).

So to summarize:

40 acolytes (10 points)
20 minotaurs (60 points)
5 ogres (10 points)
5 priests (10 points)
2 trolls (10 points)
__________________+
72 creatures (100 points)

It's probably really easy to deal with for the right party, especially because a maze like environment in general benefits the smaller party, but it feels like a decent mix between having an actual sort of army, having a bit of a threatening monstrous presence and abusing low CR creatures for shats and goggles.

(Total XP for this battle = 40 x 50 + 20 x 700 + 2 x 5 x 450 + 2 x 1800 = 2000 + 14000 + 4500 + 3600 = 24100 XP.)

EDIT: Also, one of the acolytes is a young woman who could still pass for being a teenager dressed as a servant of a good god and calling to our heroes for help, just to make sure they're not going to run away and come back prepared. (Are there toddlers in the monster manual with a printed CR value? I feel like a handful of toddlers would be even better for this.)

GorogIrongut

2020-06-13, 09:24 AM

Xenken

2020-06-13, 09:25 AM

Did you know that Diviners from Volo’s are only CR 8 and have 8th level spells? Did you also know that their 8th of choice is Maze?

Fun times.

Are allowed to use enemies from adventures, btw? Because there’s one with Wish and another that can make infinite minions.

Lvl 2 Expert

2020-06-13, 09:30 AM

Winning is all about making your opponent not want to fight. So as already mentioned, employ Sul Khatesh and any other anti magic BBEG's. Fill out the rest of your army with the one creature that strikes fear in the heart of every adventurer...

Rust Monsters.

Lots and lots of Rust Monsters.

Oh, that is good, and only CR1/2.

Kind of too bad that the main equipment of PC's running this challenge will be magical. I don't suppose there's a dire rust monster in there somewhere?

GorogIrongut

2020-06-13, 09:52 AM

Oh, that is good, and only CR1/2.

Kind of too bad that the main equipment of PC's running this challenge will be magical. I don't suppose there's a dire rust monster in there somewhere?

You'll have to read the exact text of their individual anti magic abilities... But there's a very real chance that by making them into a mundane weapon, they become very viable to the 'rusting' process.

JackPhoenix

2020-06-13, 10:02 AM

Dyrrn the corruptor (CR 24) and crapload (304) pixies (CR 1/4).

Pixies will spam Polymorph to turn everyone into a harmless creature (sea horse is good, as it has no attacks or land speed, but it can't breath air, so it limits the time available for the next step), Dyrrn will grapple them and extract their brain for instant kill when he reduces them to 0 hp (it's just the polymorphed creature, but it's still reducind the target to 0). He can also create an Intellect Devourer with legendary action.

Dyrrn can be replaced by other creatures that have an ability to instantly kill a victim when it gets to 0 hp, Polymorph helps you to get the targets there. Mind Flayers won't work, they can only suck humanoid brains, unfortunately. Basilisks or similar also work.

ForeverFlame

2020-06-13, 10:05 AM

An infinite amount of CR 0 creatures oh, and also whatever the other people said

HappyDaze

2020-06-13, 10:49 AM

An infinite amount of CR 0 creatures oh, and also whatever the other people said

I already went this route, but it is actually really easy to defeat. The PCs just need to plane shift away from your massively overpopulated world and wait until they all die off as a result of collapsing into their own mass.

SociopathFriend

2020-06-13, 12:30 PM

MaxWilson

2020-06-13, 01:10 PM

No- for precisely those sorts of reasons. Monster Manual or bust.

Whoops! Was that limitation there all along and I just didn't see it? Guess my entries are all invalid.

thereaper

2020-06-13, 01:17 PM

It clearly isn't. We know what determines if a feature is magical or not:

Resistance or immunity to non-magic weapons doesn't fulfill any of the conditions.

If one attack is magic and the other isn't, it clearly isn't the same attack. It's not a matter of magical defense, but magical OFFENSE on part of the weapon.

Apparently, it does.

Another reason to ignore Sage Advice, I guess.

Damon_Tor

2020-06-13, 02:13 PM

50 mimics.

The setting is "The PC's knapsacks".

All their food has been replaced by mimics.

Mimics are immune to acid, so they cannot be digested. So they wait until the PCs eat them then attack them from inside their stomachs.

After all, the mimic statblock says the mimics are indistinguishable while in object form, it doesn't say that's only visually indistinguishable. So they are also, it stands to reason, indistinguishable by taste.

KOLE

2020-06-13, 03:06 PM

Are their toddlers in the monster manual with a printed CR value? I feel like a handful of toddlers would be even better for this.

This is the most D&D thing I've ever heard.
Can I sig this?

Lvl 2 Expert

2020-06-13, 04:24 PM

This is the most D&D thing I've ever heard.
Can I sig this?

Even though I'm a little worried of what people's first thought about me is going to be. :smalleek::smallamused: You can sig it as long as it's a regular quote or some other form with a link to the context.

(Edit: also I see I wrote their instead of there. FTFM.)

Wizard_Lizard

2020-06-13, 07:57 PM

well because lots of low CR monsters are vulnerable to AOEs, and because CR 25 divides nicely into 100, I'm gonna pick four of Dyrrn the Corruptor, because they are cool.

HappyDaze

2020-06-13, 08:22 PM

well because lots of low CR monsters are vulnerable to AOEs, and because CR 25 divides nicely into 100, I'm gonna pick four of Dyrrn the Corruptor, because they are cool.

You found those in the Monster Manual?

Wizard_Lizard

2020-06-13, 08:30 PM

You found those in the Monster Manual?

oh wait shoot they're in Eberron rising from the Last war. uhh if it's monster manual only, then because I like easy maths then four ancient red dragons andm uhhh 32 kobolds.

MaxWilson

2020-06-13, 09:00 PM

If it's MM only, I guess I'll take a Mummy Lord (15), 2 Beholders (26), a Tarrasque (30), 3 Young White Dragons (18), a Yeti (3), 24 Flying Snakes (3), and 20 Drow Warriors (5), in a 60' adamantium cube with no exits until the fight is over, and no teleportation or plane shifting.

Mummy Lord has Sanctuary instead of Guiding Bolt, upcasts Hold Person V, uses Sanctuary on himself on any round when he didn't use his main action on a spell.

SociopathFriend

2020-06-13, 09:41 PM

Wouldn't the Beholders keep messing up the Hold Person?

MaxWilson

2020-06-13, 09:53 PM

Wouldn't the Beholders keep messing up the Hold Person?

Beholders are smart, they know how to act appropriately. The idea is to have a diversity of threats the PCs have to respond to--I don't want Freedom of Movement or Wildshape to shut down the whole encounter.

CTurbo

2020-06-14, 02:51 AM

Honestly, can ANY 5 characters of any level take down ANY 4 CR20-25 creatures at once? I'm not thinking so.

da newt

2020-06-14, 08:43 AM

LVL 2 Expert: For your XP calculations you also need to include the Encounter Multiplier of 15 or more monsters = *4. So your XP would actually be 24,100*4 = 96,400.

SociopathFriend

2020-06-14, 09:12 AM

Honestly, can ANY 5 characters of any level take down ANY 4 CR20-25 creatures at once? I'm not thinking so.

I wouldn't personally think so BUT we'll see what the future holds.

da newt

2020-06-14, 10:30 AM

I'd think that a party of 5 lvl 20 optimized and savvy PC/players COULD take out 4 CR 20+ creatures depending on initiative, spells, abilities, classes, magic items, creatures, environment, etc but that it would be unlikely.

If the CR 20+ monsters each have legendary actions, then I'd think there's almost zero chance of the party's success. 4 creatures with legendary actions has got to give them a huge action economy advantage.

DMG CR 20+ creatures:
Solar, Pit Fiend, Ancient Dragon/Dracolich/Shadow Dragon, Empyrean, Kraken, Lich, Tarrasque. I think they all have Legendary Actions except the Pit Fiend. Did I miss any?

False God

2020-06-14, 10:39 AM

Honestly, can ANY 5 characters of any level take down ANY 4 CR20-25 creatures at once? I'm not thinking so.

Depends on build, tactics and synergy, on both sides.

The PCs have the advantage in the possibility of more synergistic abilities since many of the high CR monsters are just big beat sticks.

So far my deadliest encounters for my various 5E parties have been against other PCs. Class abilities go a long way.

Beyond that, whichever side has more turns is more likely to win.

JackPhoenix

2020-06-14, 11:46 AM

4 tarrasques aren't much harder to kill than one, it'll just take longer, assuming you fight smart instead of trying to trade blows with them in melee. They still have the same weaknesses of being slow, non-flying, melee-only, stupid beasts.

Rawrawrawr

2020-06-14, 02:59 PM

I'll start with a billion Commoners (goatherds) and 10 billion Goats. Now I just have to decide how to spend my remaining 100 CR...

A billion neutral commoners (they can be any alignment, after all), and 200 shadows mixed in randomly, at night. Each shadow makes an attack, then hides as a bonus action. Assuming the shadow is always attack with advantage, it can kill about 562.5 commoners in one hour, which, with 200 shadows, results in 112500 dead commoners in the first hour.

Then the first wave of new shadows starts spawning, and exponential growth kicks in :smallamused:

Lvl 2 Expert

2020-06-14, 03:27 PM

Then the first wave of new shadows starts spawning, and exponential growth kicks in :smallamused:
characters

Any summoned/created creatures DO count towards that CR cap.

MaxWilson

2020-06-14, 03:45 PM

Honestly, can ANY 5 characters of any level take down ANY 4 CR20-25 creatures at once? I'm not thinking so.

Are you asking whether there exist combinations where the PCs can prevail? If so then sure

Simple example: four Tarrasques vs. four PCs who are all War Wizards (for simplicity). First step: cast a Forcecage or Rope Trick to create a space space. Then two PCs cast Invulnerability, the other two PCs ready a True Polymorph to turn those PCs into Nightwalkers as soon as they cast Dimension Door, then next round they actually cast Dimension Door and they kill all of the Tarrasques via necrotic damage while taking zero damage, while the guys in the Forcecage also take zero damage because they're in a Forcecage.

Doable with only two PCs if your DM is using Simulacrum as written in the PHB.

If you're instead asking whether there exist combinations of monsters against which no set of 5 PCs can reliably prevail in a DM-chosen environment, then I believe the answer to that is also "yes" but it's harder to prove. That kraken/beholder combo is pretty hard to beat though.

CTurbo

2020-06-14, 03:50 PM

A flock of Roc in a wide open field with no cover for miles

CR11 so 9 of them. All hungry. Enjoy! lol

or just to mix it up, also in a wide open field with no cover.

5 Roc - CR55
3 Purple Worm - CR45

I don't think any 5 PCs could beat 7 Storm Giants(CR91) either.

I was trying to avoid high CR monsters with lengendary actions.

p_johnston

2020-06-14, 03:58 PM

So the first thought that came into my head was the room of endless snakes. We'll call it a tunnel that's about 2 feet high, 5 feet wide and 25 feet long. Let's say some sort of trap sprang while they were inside to keep them inside (a portcullis from the ceiling or something). Next step we add a Beholder (cr 13) who's only job is to float above the tunnel and bath the entire thing in it's Anti-Magic cone. Get rid of all those nasty teleports, area of effects, etc. Final step is you flood the room with as many swarms as you can. Maybe 43 swarms of poisonous snakes? 174 swarms of insects? 348 swarms of rats? Each swarm is resistant to all physical damage and can share the same space as the adventurers and other swarms. Also since all the adventurers are forced to be prone that means all the swarms have advantage to hit.

In effect it's locking in a dark coffin with a bunch of rats and then taking away their magic.

Telok

2020-06-14, 03:59 PM

Intellect Devourers.

While in the city the party will fight 1d3 deadly encounters consisting of IDs between each short rest untill the 100 cr target has been met in the time interval between two long rests. The IDs will begin the encounter inhabiting random citizens of the city and will be found only in crowded settings such as theaters during a play, bustling markets, and overcrowded orphanages.

MaxWilson

2020-06-14, 03:59 PM

I don't think any 5 PCs could beat 7 Storm Giants(CR91) either.

I haven't gamed it out, but I suspect even 5 bog-standard Eldritch Knight Sharpshooters would win that fight, using Expeditious Retreat to stay more than 60' away so the Storm Giant rocks have disadvantage, and Absorb Elements/Shield to reduce damage.

8wGremlin

2020-06-14, 04:14 PM

A billion neutral commoners (they can be any alignment, after all), and 200 shadows mixed in randomly, at night. Each shadow makes an attack, then hides as a bonus action. Assuming the shadow is always attack with advantage, it can kill about 562.5 commoners in one hour, which, with 200 shadows, results in 112500 dead commoners in the first hour.

Then the first wave of new shadows starts spawning, and exponential growth kicks in :smallamused:

The Shadowpocolypse, how I have missed ye.
Shadows are terrifying, they have resistance to nearly everything, don't tire, don't eat, move faster than most humanoids. they weaken who they fight and can raise up more of themselves when they kill.

They are only CR 1/2, which means you can have 200 of them from the start.
1d4 hours later the corpse they killed start coming back as more Shadows.

MaxWilson

2020-06-14, 05:09 PM

A billion neutral commoners (they can be any alignment, after all), and 200 shadows mixed in randomly, at night. Each shadow makes an attack, then hides as a bonus action. Assuming the shadow is always attack with advantage, it can kill about 562.5 commoners in one hour, which, with 200 shadows, results in 112500 dead commoners in the first hour.

Then the first wave of new shadows starts spawning, and exponential growth kicks in :smallamused:

You can jump-start this by starting off with 16 Young White Shadow Dragons mixed in among your commoners instead of 200 shadows. Every time they use their breath weapon, they create dozens of Shadows, each of which can kill aforementioned 562.5 commoners per hour. You can still get exponential growth but at the end of the first round you've got hundreds of shadows AND 16 Young White Shadow Dragons, and hundreds more shadows being created every minute.

SociopathFriend

2020-06-14, 05:51 PM

So do the Commoners have a listed CR of 0 in the Monster Manual?

MaxWilson

2020-06-14, 05:57 PM

So do the Commoners have a listed CR of 0 in the Monster Manual?

Yes, they do. MM pg 345.

Daracaex

2020-06-14, 06:29 PM

ProsecutorGodot

2020-06-14, 06:36 PM

Why not a single weretiger and a huge amount of commoners? You can just turn them all into weretigers to break the 100CR restriction.

If I'm being honest, slamming a ton of commoners into the encounter should really qualify as a setting thing and not an actual creature thing.

A populated city (setting), subjugated by white shadow dragons who have already killed a few humans, spawning shadows(encounter).

It's not functionally very different, it just reigns in the cheesiness of choosing 1 billion 0 cost units for a 100 point cap. It puts a more realistic (but still huge) number on it.

Daracaex

2020-06-14, 07:06 PM

If I'm being honest, slamming a ton of commoners into the encounter should really qualify as a setting thing and not an actual creature thing.

A populated city (setting), subjugated by white shadow dragons who have already killed a few humans, spawning shadows(encounter).

It's not functionally very different, it just reigns in the cheesiness of choosing 1 billion 0 cost units for a 100 point cap. It puts a more realistic (but still huge) number on it.

Huh. Did not realize commoners were CR0 in 5e. For slightly less cheese, we can convert bandits then. One weretiger bites 768 bandits to cheat the CR of the army to 3,076 (given enough time for lycanthropy to convert the bandits).

OgataiKhan

2020-06-15, 03:38 AM

"The Monsters must be in the Monster Manual and have a listed CR" and "Any summoned/created creatures DO count towards that CR cap."

Neither rule mentions monsters that our chosen monsters turn into, so I assume that we can use MM monsters that turn into non-MM monsters and that any resulting increase in CR does not count towards the cap.

25 Couatls. Each uses Change Shape to turn into a Pudding King from OotA. Each Pudding King uses its own Change Shape ability to turn into a CR 10 Elder Oblex. The fight takes place in a 20 ft tall closed dungeon room.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-06-15, 06:34 PM

Simply put- the idea is to create the most difficult force for an Adventuring Party of five to defeat.

Any takers?

The key thing here, it seems, is that the army needs to be defeatable.

Hard as all Hades, but defeatable.

Because if you can't defeat it, it wouldn't qualify the last parameters.

So, with this in mind, I'm going to actually go with 800 kobolds, unlike the person who said it in jest.

Each kobold has a piece of a machine that is needed to open the door to whatever the PCs want. Maybe each has a piece of a cog that will open a door? Whatever...

Well, then they scatter. All. Over. The. World.

They each go their separate way to hide. You will need to search, investigate, fight, haggle, and all sorts of other crap to get these Kobolds.

Basically, if you ever played BotW, it's like the Korok seed side quest.

What's more is that unlike summon creatures, any other fight you get into would be a separate encounter to the kobolds.

800 encounters to get through a magic door.

Technically, possible, but $5 says that the party will split up (IRL) before this ever happens.

Even if the IRL party doesn't split. You're looking at the kobolds going all over the place. The party could easily get distracted with something else.

Suck it, Tucker.

yellowrocket

2020-06-15, 06:39 PM

The key thing here, it seems, is that the army needs to be defeatable.

Hard as all Hades, but defeatable.

Because if you can't defeat it, it wouldn't qualify the last parameters.

So, with this in mind, I'm going to actually go with 800 kobolds, unlike the person who said it in jest.

Each kobold has a piece of a machine that is needed to open the door to whatever the PCs want. Maybe each has a piece of a cog that will open a door? Whatever...

Well, then they scatter. All. Over. The. World.

They each go their separate way to hide. You will need to search, investigate, fight, haggle, and all sorts of other crap to get these Kobolds.

Basically, if you ever played BotW, it's like the Korok seed side quest.

What's more is that unlike summon creatures, any other fight you get into would be a separate encounter to the kobolds.

800 encounters to get through a magic door.

Technically, possible, but $5 says that the party will split up (IRL) before this ever happens.

Even if the IRL party doesn't split. You're looking at the kobolds going all over the place. The party could easily get distracted with something else.

Suck it, Tucker.
Text to spoil

You my friend have a sick twisted evil mind.

I LOVE IT!!!!!

ZerohFG

2020-06-15, 06:45 PM

If someone already went Slaad, I am sorry, but my first thought:

1 Death Slaad
2 Grey Slaad
2 Green Slaad
3 Blue Slaad
7 Red Slaad

They may not win the first battle, but over time they could easily win the war.

Ganryu

2020-06-15, 06:55 PM

How many Lifferlasses can I get?

They're CR0!

Edit: Missed the Monster manual requirement. But probably for the best

SociopathFriend

2020-06-15, 07:41 PM

How many Lifferlasses can I get?

They're CR0!

Edit: Missed the Monster manual requirement. But probably for the best

We all have our flaws. I had not thought to directly ban CR 0 creatures.

Wizard_Lizard

2020-06-15, 08:07 PM

Cue next thread asking how to build 5 pcs to beat this encounter.

th3g0dc0mp13x

2020-06-15, 08:09 PM

Not quite by the rules. The only change is that the archdruid prepares call lightning.

CR23 Elder Tempest ~Comes with it's own storm between 5-10 miles in diameter.

Archdruid x5 Flying around inside the storm as air elementals hitting anything with a 9th level call lightning. 10d10 damage 5 times per round for 10 minutes, coming from a flying elemental.

Shambling mound x3, with all the call lightning coming down and these being immune and absorbing, welp good luck

Edit: Now one in the rules.

800 Flying snakes...

SociopathFriend

2020-06-15, 08:22 PM

Cue next thread asking how to build 5 pcs to beat this encounter.

It did occur to me but honestly I just wanted to see what some of the deadliest encounters people could think of would be.
I somewhat genuinely don't think 5 PCs could win some of these battles without massive abuse like Simulacrum spam.

WaroftheCrans

2020-06-15, 08:50 PM

It did occur to me but honestly I just wanted to see what some of the deadliest encounters people could think of would be.
I somewhat genuinely don't think 5 PCs could win some of these battles without massive abuse like Simulacrum spam.

We should vote on top 3 most dangerous/interesting encounters, and then design a party in the next thread around it. I'd like to say no legendary actions however, because the action economy is already absurdly in the favor of the monsters.

Alternatively, we could just quote all of them, and go from there. Some, like 800 flying snakes, are just a meteor swarm away from death.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-06-15, 10:32 PM

Text to spoil

You my friend have a sick twisted evil mind.

I LOVE IT!!!!!

Thank you.

I'm actually rather proud of my abilities as a DM. I blame 2e.

LordCdrMilitant

2020-06-15, 10:47 PM

Simply put- the idea is to create the most difficult force for an Adventuring Party of five to defeat.

The Monsters must be in the Monster Manual and have a listed CR.
The CR 'cost' is the CR of the Monster.

You could, for example, have five CR 20 creatures, four CR 20 creatures and five CR 4 creatures, and so on.
You could have two hundred CR 1/2 creatures if you wanted.

Any Liches or Vampires or other 'need specific items or locations to permanently kill' will require the items in question to be in the same area.
Feel free to include the environment you would like the Army to be in BUT it must not be entirely underwater, in a vacuum, atop a cloud, or any other location that an Adventurer cannot reliably access without magic.

Any summoned/created creatures DO count towards that CR cap. So no limitless Mummy Lord army.
No Wish or Simulacrum abuse (I don't think any Monsters have those but doesn't hurt to be thorough)

Any takers?

Probably something like 400 CR1/4 ranged-weapon equipped creatures. Perhaps Human Longbow-equipped Archer [potentially V.Human Longbow Archer with Sharpshooter for 600' range]. Or 320 CR1/4 such creatures and one level 20 wizard to really make sure they can engage the party simultaneously protect them, and bait the party into a position where they're virtually guaranteed to die to the archer blob like an firing squad. Not the epitome of an interesting encounter though. Just an exercise in probability and a shooting gallery.

Honestly, can ANY 5 characters of any level take down ANY 4 CR20-25 creatures at once? I'm not thinking so.

I wouldn't personally think so BUT we'll see what the future holds.

I'm certain they can. In fact, I think that a well optimized cleric and a fighter probably can working together, and the other 4 members of the party can further buff, debuff, or run interference. It may not be fast, but I'm almost certain that 5 level 20 characters can take almost any sort of encounter of a small number of very large threats.

I think the actual unbeatable encounter is almost certainly in the realm of having so many targets shooting back in the encounter that it's both impossible to survive the return fire and impossible to destroy a meaningful number each turn and each of your hits is critical overkill on the ones who are hit, thus wasting most of your character abilities and potential.

MaxWilson

2020-06-15, 11:45 PM

We should vote on top 3 most dangerous/interesting encounters, and then design a party in the next thread around it. I'd like to say no legendary actions however, because the action economy is already absurdly in the favor of the monsters.

Alternatively, we could just quote all of them, and go from there. Some, like 800 flying snakes, are just a meteor swarm away from death.

Eliminating Legendary Actions changes the monsters' CR.

SociopathFriend

2020-06-16, 12:25 AM

Eliminating Legendary Actions changes the monsters' CR.

IF I make another thread for this sort of thing I would likely limit the Legendary Actions in some fashion given I don't think you're ever meant to go up against two opponents both possessing them anyways.

If one LA creature won Initiative, basically the entire LA collective would be able to take all of their LAs before the players could have one. I don't quite think that's factored into CR either.

If all else fails there could be an attempt to figure out how much raw HP would need to be added to raise the CR to the proper level and then removing LA as a concept but allowing anything they could do as a LA to be done as a normal Action.

MaxWilson

2020-06-16, 12:58 AM

IF I make another thread for this sort of thing I would likely limit the Legendary Actions in some fashion given I don't think you're ever meant to go up against two opponents both possessing them anyways.

If one LA creature won Initiative, basically the entire LA collective would be able to take all of their LAs before the players could have one. I don't quite think that's factored into CR either.

Per DMG pg 278 (bottom of lefthand text column), damage from Legendary Actions is in fact included in monster CR calculations, the same way as damage from Multiattack, lair actions, special abilities like Fire Shield, etc.

If you eliminate the legendary actions, CR should drop unless it had no damaging legendary actions in the first place.

(Not that CR is a good measure of that level in the first place. A legendary action Teleport is fantastically good but doesn't affect CR at all, unless the DM overrides the formula manually.)

Kane0

2020-06-16, 01:59 AM

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-06-16, 05:22 AM

Infinite lemures sounds both appropriate and frightening.

Infinite rats, crawling claws, spiders, fire beetles and scorpions will probably cause some shudders.

Infinite baboons is just hilarious

Infinite badgers is the stuff of nightmares.

My only issue with them is that they aren't all that smart, I'm sure a competent party could turn those into a "tippy-verse" type set up where the all those animals are just "food" and no different than someone hitting a trap button over and over.

Grim Portent

2020-06-16, 08:11 AM

100 CR 1/2 hobgoblins riding 100 CR 1/2 worgs.

Substitute the hobgoblins longswords for lances if allowed. 10 foot reach allows them to attack without being at risk of opportunity attacks as they move past things.

Worgs are intelligent enough to understand tactics and so can be ridden without being controlled so they can still attack.

Hobgoblins have longbows standard, and being mounted means they can trigger Martial Advantage for bonus damage whenever their mount is in melee. It also triggers for the ones who're hanging back to provide ranged support provided someone is engaged with the target.

So they basically fight like horse archers. Spread out, take turns to sweep in and attack with lances or longswords and the worgs bite, worg riders too far to dart in and out of melee fire arrows instead, everyone tries to avoid getting stuck in melee except to dogpile vulnerable opponents and use martial advantage to rip into their hp. If the PCs are mounted then slaying the mounts is a priority to limit their mobility, most mounts will die in just a few hits from a mounted hobgoblin. If spells are cast/abilities used that make it difficult or dangerous to approach or that make arrows ineffective, then peel away and wait them out before coming back in for another run.

follacchioso

2020-06-16, 08:20 AM

A few archdruids casting Animal Shapes, and a good number of CR 1 monsters.

Kobold_paladin?

2020-06-16, 09:54 AM

Introducing the loophole.
Ifinate lemures. They are cr 0. 0. An endless horde of them. ENDLESS.
It is impossible to fight of them even though they're so easy to defeat. BECAUSE THEY'RE INFINATE. Ah, I love loopholes.

SociopathFriend

2020-06-17, 01:16 PM

Alright so given there seems to be a decent demand for it- from this post onwards I would like people to look through the past thread and pick their favorite battle you'd like to see someone try to draft a team of 5 to take on.

No CR 0 exploits. No attempts to circumvent the CR system by shapechanging.

You don't HAVE to do it since if nobody does I'll just pick the one I think is most interesting but at the same time- democracy ho!

Lvl 2 Expert

2020-06-17, 04:20 PM

I'm tempted to go for SpawofMorbo's epic quest around the world:

The key thing here, it seems, is that the army needs to be defeatable.

Hard as all Hades, but defeatable.

Because if you can't defeat it, it wouldn't qualify the last parameters.

So, with this in mind, I'm going to actually go with 800 kobolds, unlike the person who said it in jest.

Each kobold has a piece of a machine that is needed to open the door to whatever the PCs want. Maybe each has a piece of a cog that will open a door? Whatever...

Well, then they scatter. All. Over. The. World.

They each go their separate way to hide. You will need to search, investigate, fight, haggle, and all sorts of other crap to get these Kobolds.

Basically, if you ever played BotW, it's like the Korok seed side quest.

What's more is that unlike summon creatures, any other fight you get into would be a separate encounter to the kobolds.

800 encounters to get through a magic door.

Technically, possible, but $5 says that the party will split up (IRL) before this ever happens.

Even if the IRL party doesn't split. You're looking at the kobolds going all over the place. The party could easily get distracted with something else.

Suck it, Tucker.

But it doesn't seem like very interesting to build for, or to play. It's also not really an encounter. (And the way to beat it is to build a specialized door breaker Barbarian. Also a wizard with teleport.) So I'll go with p_johnston's room of endless snakes instead:

So the first thought that came into my head was the room of endless snakes. We'll call it a tunnel that's about 2 feet high, 5 feet wide and 25 feet long. Let's say some sort of trap sprang while they were inside to keep them inside (a portcullis from the ceiling or something). Next step we add a Beholder (cr 13) who's only job is to float above the tunnel and bath the entire thing in it's Anti-Magic cone. Get rid of all those nasty teleports, area of effects, etc. Final step is you flood the room with as many swarms as you can. Maybe 43 swarms of poisonous snakes? 174 swarms of insects? 348 swarms of rats? Each swarm is resistant to all physical damage and can share the same space as the adventurers and other swarms. Also since all the adventurers are forced to be prone that means all the swarms have advantage to hit.

In effect it's locking in a dark coffin with a bunch of rats and then taking away their magic.

MaxWilson

2020-06-17, 05:17 PM

SociopathFriend

2020-06-17, 05:34 PM

I'd like to watch someone do the beholder-kraken-unicorn fight. Complex enough to be interesting.

I don't like the idea of tailoring the party to the encounter though.

Unfortunately I don't really know how to avoid that.

MaxWilson

2020-06-17, 05:43 PM

Unfortunately I don't really know how to avoid that.

Have someone build the party now, while voting is still ongoing?

Telok

2020-06-17, 05:43 PM

Unfortunately I don't really know how to avoid that.

Build parties against one army and instead randomly pick a different army for them to fight.

SpawnOfMorbo

2020-06-18, 01:20 AM

I'm tempted to go for SpawofMorbo's epic quest around the world:

But it doesn't seem like very interesting to build for, or to play. It's also not really an encounter. (And the way to beat it is to build a specialized door breaker Barbarian. Also a wizard with teleport.) So I'll go with p_johnston's room of endless snakes instead:

Ok, I've had some sleep...

Just change the stipulation that a king wants his "key" to the royal treasure vault back, and no, you can't just break the door or get inside, it's a magic room filled with a lot of cool stuff (if it wasn't, the kingdom's stuff would have been stolen long ago). Go get that McGuffin (no one said the reason for the encounter had to be amazing).

Maybe it ain't a key, the king just wants his child's favorite toy back (it's a 3d puzzle, magically imprinted so you can't fake it).

The secret to this all is that once the kobolds leave, the party has lost.

Getting into a direct fight is what most players would do, like walking up to the front door and stuff, this is not the answer.

Either you go all MGS/Splinter Cell and stealth skill all 800 before they scatter or steal all 800 pieces before they scatter or even know you're there.

You could do a direct fight... if you search for every exit and block it before you go in fighting and hope you found them all and did a good job blocking the exits.

If you fail, your reward is a campaign lol.

Lvl 2 Expert

2020-06-18, 01:35 AM

Build parties against one army and instead randomly pick a different army for them to fight.

I'm for this as step 3. In step 2 we build to face a specific encounter, and then we pick the party we want to see face another encounter, and try to find the tactics this party should use in the new situation.

Wizard_Lizard

2020-06-18, 06:18 PM

Ok, I've had some sleep...

Just change the stipulation that a king wants his "key" to the royal treasure vault back, and no, you can't just break the door or get inside, it's a magic room filled with a lot of cool stuff (if it wasn't, the kingdom's stuff would have been stolen long ago). Go get that McGuffin (no one said the reason for the encounter had to be amazing).

Maybe it ain't a key, the king just wants his child's favorite toy back (it's a 3d puzzle, magically imprinted so you can't fake it).

The secret to this all is that once the kobolds leave, the party has lost.

Getting into a direct fight is what most players would do, like walking up to the front door and stuff, this is not the answer.

Either you go all MGS/Splinter Cell and stealth skill all 800 before they scatter or steal all 800 pieces before they scatter or even know you're there.

You could do a direct fight... if you search for every exit and block it before you go in fighting and hope you found them all and did a good job blocking the exits.

If you fail, your reward is a campaign lol.
this is sick twisted and evil and I love it so much. I'm so tempted to use this but I know I can't coz I actually like playing.