Avatar The Last Air Bender

[Pex]

Thanks to Netflix I'm finally able to see this show everyone praises. I'm only a few episodes in the first season at this time. Accepting it's a children's show, I find I am liking it. I'm not being preached to. Each episode has its own ending, but the overall story arc is there. That's a common thing now, but it's done well here. I'm being told a story.

The only downside is that I'm now more aware of how Four Elements Monk fails to live up to the expectation. :smallyuk:

Curious. Is it stereotypical for Fire to be the bad guys? Could this show have worked if it was Avatar The Last Fire Bender and say Earth Nation were the bad guys? I could be overthinking this as an adult about a children's program. This does not take away anything from the show. With bias in my own gameworld as DM there are good guy undead and kobolds and there's a full orc Lawful Good cleric PC, so I like flipping the stereotype. Did Fire have to be the bad guy for the story to make sense?

[Dienekes]

Fire did not have to be the bad guy. But without spoiling anything with specifics, the fact that fire seems the most aggressive and destructive while actually having many more uses goes very well with the philosophic and moral thread of the show.

[Kantaki]

Yes. Yes, the Earth Kingdom definitely would've worked as a villain.:smalleek:
Maybe not the same way, because Spoilers, but yeah they would probably have worked.

The Last Firebender though...
I'm not sure, there's a reason it's the Fire Nation.
Although, if we assume Earth as the Bad Guys and some equivalent to [Spoiler]...
We might've the Crater formerly known as the Fire Nation instead.

[Peelee]

I just started back in on this now that I can watch every single episode, and in sequential order (on demand viewing is best viewing), so I'm stoked about this thread. Do you feel like doing episodic reviews or anything?

ETA: I think fire was just thematically suited to villains, as it's intense and destructive over a short and fast period, while earth, air, and water are passively destructive over slow and long periods (barring disasters like tornadoes and hurricanes). I also vaguely dislike the Fire Nation's power, since the Earth Kingdom (really both Earth and Water, but Earth first and foremost) would have been well-suited for countering fire, especially given it's rampant abundance... well, everywhere. And the one people that the Fire Nation eradicated, the Air nomads, would have been best suited to be their allies, as far as elemental synergy goes, though the thematic temperaments do differ.

[Razade]

It's not like, outside of Water Benders and Air Benders, we don't see villains who aren't Fire Benders. And we see good Fire Benders too but that's sort of tangential to the actual answer.

The Fire Nation is the primary antagonist of the series, sure, but that's not even close to Fire = Evil or anything close to that as it's presented. It's kinda weird then to ask if it could have been the Last Firebender when it being the Last Airbender has nothing to do with the elements themselves and everything to do with the sociopolitical aspects of the series. The Fire Nation gets the baddie slot because their leadership is ruled by a hyper aggressive expansionist madman and not because it's The Fire Nation and Fire = Destruction.



ETA: I think fire was just thematically suited to villains, as it's intense and destructive over a short and fast period, while earth, air, and water are passively destructive over slow and long periods (barring disasters like tornadoes and hurricanes). I also vaguely dislike the Fire Kingdom's power, since the Earth Kingdom (really Earth and Water, but Earth first and foremost) would have been well-suited for countering fire, especially given it's rampant abundance... well, everywhere. And the one people that the Fire Kingdom eradicated, the Air benders, would have been best suited to be their allies, as far as elemental synergy goes, though the thematic temperaments do differ.

Outside the magic system not working like that (Earth dousing/smothering fire and wind whipping up fire) the Fire Nation's power isn't just because fire is destructive or abundant. The Fire Nation is simply more technologically advanced in the aspects of war than any other nation and their military is demonstrably better trained. The Fire Nation's power comes from the fact they have tanks and war zeppelins and ironclad ships that run off steampower that their very own soldiers can help generate. Every Fire Nation soldier is a potential engine and they are drilled to perfection. While the Water Tribes (tribes being the operative term here) have control over the waves when you build a ship to master sea travel it's going to take a lot of Water Benders to sink them. Harder when a line of highly trained soldiers are raining flaming doom down upon you.

There's also the fact that the Water Tribes are...tribes. The Northern Tribe is obviously the stronger and we see the force the Fire Nation sends to take them down. The Tribes lack an army the way that the Fire Nation does. The Tribes lack any kind of military output like the Fire Nation does. The Water Tribes aren't working to make weapons of war and even if they were, they lack the resources and know how to do so. The Fire Nation does not and we see them crank them out pretty quickly.

The Earth Kingdom is in a similar place. Aside from the fact that the Earth Kingdom is ruled by a manchild with no real concern for ruling and the central government living in a literal walled off city with no real concern for their country...well that's really it isn't it? The Earth Kingdom is vastly decentralized as far as command goes. The minor cities are left to rule themselves and against a foe like the Fire Nation that is consolidated in their power they're just not going to hold up with a long fight. We never see a massive army like the Fire Nation fielded by the Earth Kingdom. Considering it's the largest of the four countries with presumably the largest population to go along with all that land, it's absences is as good as evidence that they don't have one. The Fire Nation sent super weapons to their capital and they were just allowed to do it. Nothing stopped them.

[A.A.King]

Fire is just a much scarier element. We're all taught very early on (I hope) to be cautious with flames. Enemies that use fire to attack feel more dangerous than people blasting you with air or splashing you with water. Sure, those elements can be used offensively but for it to look impressive I feel you need to scale it up a lot more. You need a tsunami or a tornado to get that instant recognition from your audience that this is dangerous, which are probably not techniques you want low level soldiers to be able to easily use. Those basic fire blasts that any fire nation soldier can do however, those are much more visually dangerous yet believably simple. It also helps that fire is the only element that is inherently painful. I know that in some fiction you have ideas like "healing flames" but in the real world at least, touching fire will always be a painful thing.

Playing everything straight and building on the standard perceptions people might have with regards to the four elements probably also helped with the world building. It's also easier for people to buy into the world when everything acts the way you'd expect an elemental nation to act. Part of the appeal of the Avatar series is the (initial) simplicity of the world. It feels like a fantasy world you already know even though you don't. A setting where the elements are cast against type would probably need more work fleshing out. Why did the fire nation attack? Because they are fire. With the other elements I'm not sure I would as easily buy into unprovoked hostility, they never burned me before for no reason.

I mean, it could work. Just not nearly as easy as it does in this way.

[LaZodiac]

The sorts of responses you're seeing here are why, Pex, I'm going to say there is no actual "thinking too hard" about a show like this.

Just because it's Made For Children doesn't mean it's not going to be far deeper than you expect.

Incidently, I like how all four groups are in dissary. The water tribes are, due to circumstances, rather inflexible. They feel like they can't be. The Earth Kingdom is, as stated above, incredibly decentralized and without any sort of unity and endurance their people are known for. The Fire Nation is shown to be almost passionless and without any sort of focus beyond the death of everyone else, and the Air Nomads... well I mean they're all dead. Kinda hard to be one with nature, carefree and happy if you're a skeleton.

[Yanagi]

Avatar's world has enough sociological storytelling that the Fire Nation, as you learn about it, isn't the bad guy because of fire bending. There may be archetypal traits inherent to being fire-bending people, but there's a still a cultural expression of what fire-bending means, and it's the latter that makes the Fire Nation the current aggressor.

And in turn it's communicated that in the long term history of the world that the other Nations, subgroupings within the nations, and individuals were at times "the bad guys" relative to the Avatar's task of overall harm reduction.

[Peelee]

Outside the magic system not working like that (Earth dousing/smothering fire and wind whipping up fire) the Fire Nation's power isn't just because fire is destructive or abundant. The Fire Nation is simply more technologically advanced in the aspects of war than any other nation and their military is demonstrably better trained. The Fire Nation's power comes from the fact they have tanks and war zeppelins and ironclad ships that run off steampower that their very own soldiers can help generate. Every Fire Nation soldier is a potential engine and they are drilled to perfection. While the Water Tribes (tribes being the operative term here) have control over the waves when you build a ship to master sea travel it's going to take a lot of Water Benders to sink them. Harder when a line of highly trained soldiers are raining flaming doom down upon you.

There's also the fact that the Water Tribes are...tribes. The Northern Tribe is obviously the stronger and we see the force the Fire Nation sends to take them down. The Tribes lack an army the way that the Fire Nation does. The Tribes lack any kind of military output like the Fire Nation does. The Water Tribes aren't working to make weapons of war and even if they were, they lack the resources and know how to do so. The Fire Nation does not and we see them crank them out pretty quickly.

The Earth Kingdom is in a similar place. Aside from the fact that the Earth Kingdom is ruled by a manchild with no real concern for ruling and the central government living in a literal walled off city with no real concern for their country...well that's really it isn't it? The Earth Kingdom is vastly decentralized as far as command goes. The minor cities are left to rule themselves and against a foe like the Fire Nation that is consolidated in their power they're just not going to hold up with a long fight. We never see a massive army like the Fire Nation fielded by the Earth Kingdom. Considering it's the largest of the four countries with presumably the largest population to go along with all that land, it's absences is as good as evidence that they don't have one. The Fire Nation sent super weapons to their capital and they were just allowed to do it. Nothing stopped them.

I'm not saying that the Fire Nation derived its power due to fire being destructive, I was saying that the Doylistic reason the Aggressor Nation was delegated to Fire was probably due to the thematic aspect of fire being intense and destructive. Any of the others could have been slotted into the Aggressor Nation role; the Water Nation could solidified naval superiority and used hydraulic machines and weapons to overrun the Fire Tribes, the Air Nation could have used wind turbines to power their flying war machines against the Fire Nomads, and the Earth Nation could have high grade coal and other natural resources to fuel their stone rolling fortresses, much more heat-resistant than metal, against the Fire Kingdom. Any of the elements could have been the Aggressor Nation with greater technology and societal adhesion than the others, but it was the Fire Nation that got slotted with it, and I just think that's why.

[Pex]

If the other Nations were bad guys, using their element, I see them doing it differently than Fire. They wouldn't have armies. They wouldn't need to. Water threatens tsunamis and floods. Tsunamis destroy the coasts and rivers overflow to destroy farmland and cities. They might even deny water by drying out the rivers. They could bend rain to not fall on crops. Earth as villain uses earthquakes and erect very high walls of stone to surround a village to isolate it from the world. Air Benders can fly over, but since they live on mountain tops the mountains would topple in avalanches of earthquakes. Air as villain might be stuck only using tornadoes and winds in general. Maybe if the Air Lord was insanely bad he'd threaten to destroy the atmosphere to snuff out all life and must be stopped.

The story might have to be different I suppose. I know I'll eventually learn Aang isolated himself because he didn't want to be the Avatar (white print spoiler). That couldn't work with Air Atmosphere Apocalypse because the danger is immediate. The story would be an Avatar who needs to rush his training earlier than expected and thus can't control the power. He hasn't even mastered his own element, unlike Aang. It could possibly be similar to the actual story with the Earth or Water as villain. Fire Nation falls because the floods or earthquakes wiped out their fire engine vehicles. They thought themselves invincible. Their own pride was their weakness.

[understatement]

Slightly off-topic, but has Netflix planned/released any statement saying it would add Legend of Korra on as well? I think it would be cool to watch them side-by-side.

[Grey Watcher]

I think just thanks to broader cultural and artistic precedent, it's easier to code fire users in any magical setting as bad guys. I don't know how far you are in the show, but one thing I think I can say is the show does a good job of gradually questioning and breaking down this association.

As things go on, the Earth Kingdom leadership really stops looking like The Good Guys By Definition. The rank-and-file citizens remain sympathetic, since they're the ones getting hit with the brunt of the badness, but there are plenty of corrupt, domineering, and/or amoral people in the Earth Kingdom, some of whom wield considerable power. And there are suggestions that, in prior eras, the major Bad Guys of the world WERE from the Earth Kingdom.

By contrast, when you get to see Fire Nation civilians, they come off as nice, reasonable people. The show really zeroes in that the problem is with the leadership and their policy and propaganda, not a Fire Is By Definition Evil thing.

[Grey Watcher]

If the other Nations were bad guys, using their element, I see them doing it differently than Fire. They wouldn't have armies. They wouldn't need to. Water threatens tsunamis and floods. Tsunamis destroy the coasts and rivers overflow to destroy farmland and cities. They might even deny water by drying out the rivers. They could bend rain to not fall on crops. Earth as villain uses earthquakes and erect very high walls of stone to surround a village to isolate it from the world. Air Benders can fly over, but since they live on mountain tops the mountains would topple in avalanches of earthquakes. Air as villain might be stuck only using tornadoes and winds in general. Maybe if the Air Lord was insanely bad he'd threaten to destroy the atmosphere to snuff out all life and must be stopped.

The story might have to be different I suppose. I know I'll eventually learn. (white print spoiler). That couldn't work with Air Atmosphere Apocalypse because the danger is immediate. The story would be an Avatar who needs to rush his training earlier than expected and thus can't control the power. He hasn't even mastered his own element, unlike Aang. It could possibly be similar to the actual story with the Earth or Water as villain. Fire Nation falls because the floods or earthquakes wiped out their fire engine vehicles. They thought themselves invincible. Their own pride was their weakness.

I don't know. The show is a little loose in this front (Rule of Cool and all), but my understanding is that creating things on the city-destroying scale (hurricanes, mass-suffocations, tsunamis, artificial droughts, earthquakes, etc.) requires either a bender of unprecedented power (a level literally unheard of outside of the Avatar themselves) or such a huge team working in concert as to be impractical to field. If your AU Airbenders are busy conjuring a hurricane, they're not protecting themselves, making them sitting ducks for artillery, meaning you need a SECOND enormous, all-bender army just to protect the first. Without some kind of extraordinary circumstance, causing destruction in that scale just isn't feasible.

[Sinewmire]

I could totally see Avatar The Last Firebender.

A world where the Earth nation has decided it's brand of authoritarian hierarchy should cover the world. The Earth King takes the reins of the vast armies and institutions like the Dai Li and the world becomes layers of rings around Ba Sing Se. The world becomes rigid, unchanging and all people are concerned with is studying to get up to that next level rather than making something new or wondering "is the system worth engaging in"? Fire is the element of energy and warmth, and the avatar has enthusiasm and will (fire), but needs to learn the avoid danger and find creative solutions (air) before they can learn to make necessary changes (water) before taking on the Earth King, a tyrant strong enough to crush enemies like an avalanche and remain, well, rock-like in the face of any assault. Maybe the Earth King's inflexibility will be his downfall.
@ Rynjin Nothing I mentioned there happens in the show. I'm talking about an entirely hypothetical alternatives show there, but better safe than sorry I guess.

That said, as others have said, Fire, thematically makes the most sense for a destabilizing element. One of my favourite quotes from the show says it very well.

Before learning fire bending, you must learn water and earth. Water is cool, and soothing. Earth is steady and stable, but fire... fire is alive. It breathes, it grows. Without the bender, a rock will not throw itself! But fire will spread! Destroy everything in it's path! If one does not have the will to control it. That is it's destiny! You are not ready! YOU ARE TOO WEAK!"

[Rynjin]

You guys, uh, think you might want to spoiler that stuff about the Earth Nation?

[Grey Watcher]

It's very, very, very spoiler-heavy, but Hello Future Me has an interesting video on how firebending dovetails with some other established elements such that the Fire Nation's current place in the geopolitical scene makes a lot of sense: https://youtu.be/Pa2BD13VzxY

[Lethologica]

It's super-easy to make Earthbenders the villains. Hardly need to change a thing about the setting.

Water...cold as ice, with all the sudden violence of a terrible flood. The seafaring conquerors. It's quite different from the current Water Tribes, but it can be done.

Air is the toughest for me...I'm going to go with class warfare allegory. The Airbenders live in their mountain paradises, served by those below. Their agents, like the air, are everywhere, unseen, but always ready to snuff out dissent, or claim talents for the service of the elite. And with mastery of the skies, their army always has the mobility advantage, and the high ground.

The flip side of the question is how to make fire heroic in each of these alternate settings, but this is easier once the villains are established. Fire as passion stifled by implacable earth. Fire as warmth to melt the forbidding ice. Fire to cleanse the stench of decadent corruption in the air.

I'm just spitballing, and other people's ideas of alternate elemental alignments will no doubt look quite different. But it surely can be done.

[False God]

Thanks to Netflix I'm finally able to see this show everyone praises. I'm only a few episodes in the first season at this time. Accepting it's a children's show, I find I am liking it. I'm not being preached to. Each episode has its own ending, but the overall story arc is there. That's a common thing now, but it's done well here. I'm being told a story.

The only downside is that I'm now more aware of how Four Elements Monk fails to live up to the expectation. :smallyuk:
I know right?


Curious. Is it stereotypical for Fire to be the bad guys?
It's really less that "fire" is the bad guys, and that the bad guys are Japan. So.....


Could this show have worked if it was Avatar The Last Fire Bender and say Earth Nation were the bad guys?
Wait for it...


I could be overthinking this as an adult about a children's program. This does not take away anything from the show. With bias in my own gameworld as DM there are good guy undead and kobolds and there's a full orc Lawful Good cleric PC, so I like flipping the stereotype. Did Fire have to be the bad guy for the story to make sense?
The story is more based on stylized histories/cultures of Asia than anything else. That's really why the nations fall where they do and why they're associated with the elements they are and why they have their respective personalities and why fire was the aggressor.

[Lord Raziere]

I will not say much, as I don't know what episode you are on, Pex.

none of this is explained immediately and you just have to take it episode by episode.

as for whether Fire would have to be bad guy to make sense....I'd say The Deserter would answer that question, you can certainly do other elements and such, but they wouldn't be quite the same. the elements have philosophies and spiritual stuff tied up in them that make it so that you can't just shove one element's philosophy into another and expect it to just work, they are not undifferentiated matter that can do all the same techniques- far from it. while political parts of it are as others have said based on real world cultures stylized to fit and Fire is just an appropriate metaphor for an aggressive expansionist technologically advanced empire willing to kill anyone in their way for its own glory. Earth could probably fit as others say? But not in the exact same way.

[BisectedBrioche]

For what it's worth, I think The Legend of Korra and the comics both explore the idea of factions from other nations getting a bit too colonialist for their jackboots.

[Rynjin]

For what it's worth, I think The Legend of Korra and the comics both explore the idea of factions from other nations getting a bit too colonialist for their jackboots.

Korra does some interesting things with the world, but unfortunately accomplishes some of it by kind of trampling all over the themes and worldbuilding of the original series. Especially season 2. {scrubbed}, season 2.

[Algeh]

Korra does some interesting things with the world, but unfortunately accomplishes some of it by kind of trampling all over the themes and worldbuilding of the original series. Especially season 2. {scrubbed}, season 2.

I would like Korra so much more if it weren't a sequel to A:TLA. It's an interesting show in its own right (well, it had good moments and bad moments), but a terrible continuation of another thing I liked. It's fine that the writers wanted to do something different, I just wish they would have spun up a new setting to do it in. I probably would have had that issue with any sequel to some degree, since the setting is more interesting to me as an open-ended thing rather than an thing with more canon and Big Events in it, but Korra was particularly full of changes that I feel made the combined work of the two shows taken together weaker than either would be alone.

[The Shoeless]

I always thought Fire was a very nice pick for the aggressor, particularly because it would be a stereotype. The series explores the ideas of nobody being beyond redemption, as well as nobody being beyond taking a wrong turn and going down a dark path. People are a mess all around and simultaneously all worth saving.

I particularly liked this series because I always liked heroes who go out of their way and try to preserve good better than 'heroes' who set out to destroy evil.

[Psyren]

Look, at the end of the day, it was a kid's show - and furthermore it was a kid's show with some pretty complex themes to deliver even for an adult audience. It had themes like war (including conscientious objection, geopolitical alliances, state propaganda, WMDs etc), spirituality and harmony, breaking with authority figures to find your own path, redemption of evil, and tons and tons more. ANYTHING they can do to simplify delivery of all that is not just welcome, it's necessary - and "fire = evil" shorthand was a big part of that, letting them have the bad guys all wear red clothes and use the most inherently dangerous element without needing a whole lot of justification. Could they have written a compelling narrative with Earth or Water or even Air as the bad guys, maybe - but when you're throwing this much new stuff at a young audience sometimes the most straightforward tropes are the best.

[Zmeoaice]

It turns out that the "fire = evil" was pretty carefully crafted. Firebending gave them a cheap energy source which allowed them to industrialize much faster than other nations and use their superior technology to conquer them. Wasn't simply because they were evil, especially since many Earth Kingdom cities are just awful.

[Peelee]

It turns out that the "fire = evil" was pretty carefully crafted. Firebending gave them a cheap energy source which allowed them to industrialize much faster than other nations and use their superior technology to conquer them. Wasn't simply because they were evil, especially since many Earth Kingdom cities are just awful.

That's the thing, though; the other benders could also have developed machines based on their elements. Water could have hydraulics, Air could have had steam/pressure, and Earth... well, Earth is harder.

ETA: Actually, Earth would similar to Fire, since the Fire Nation uses coal-fired engines, and Earth benders would be most suitable to easily and quickly mining and refining coal.

[t209]

It's super-easy to make Earthbenders the villains. Hardly need to change a thing about the setting.
So about that.
Before the Hundred Years’ War, most of the conflicts tend to involve around stopping Earth Kingdom’s internal conflicts (civil war, peasant uprising, and local warlord like Chin) along with Earth Kong’s attempt at despotic monarchy with Dai li supposed to be Internal Affairs but appropriated itself into aristocratic subsection during Aang and Secret Police in Korea.

[Dienekes]

That's the thing, though; the other benders could also have developed machines based on their elements. Water could have hydraulics, Air could have had steam/pressure, and Earth... well, Earth is harder.

ETA: Actually, Earth would similar to Fire, since the Fire Nation uses coal-fired engines, and Earth benders would be most suitable to easily and quickly mining and refining coal.

I think the difference is mostly, the other elements have means of making machines much better. Firebending is the most direct way to making the furnaces and harnessing direct energy to power said machines directly.

[Peelee]

I think the difference is mostly, the other elements have means of making machines much better. Firebending is the most direct way to making the furnaces and harnessing direct energy to power said machines directly.

Earth comes remarkably close, if not equivalent/overpassing them, since their powers would make mining/refining significantly easier, which affects both fuel and materials. Creating fire is almost negligible, and the machines don't really need control, since the Water Tribespeople can work a Fire Nation ship well enough to fool other Fire Nation ships.

[Dienekes]

Earth comes remarkably close, if not equivalent/overpassing them, since their powers would make mining/refining significantly easier, which affects both fuel and materials. Creating fire is almost negligible, and the machines don't really need control, since the Water Tribespeople can work a Fire Nation ship well enough to fool other Fire Nation ships.

Creating steel making furnaces is very much not negligible. Technology to make good steel/appropriate furnaces has been found and then lost at least three times throughout history that I know of. Working furnaces to get accurate smelting is hard. Hell a good section of the world never invented it until outside forces brought it, often through violence.

The fact that it's easy for outsiders to then work the technology would be why once the war ends and people start actually working together we see a general dispersal of such technology throughout the world in Korra. But that doesn't really matter to the circumstances to create the technology in the first place.

There is of course also the circumstances of necessity to create. Why would steel be a big development in the Water Tribes when they live in igloos? If people can build castle walls and irrigation ditches with a bunch of punches and stomps the need for the metal tools to develop steel plows?

This is not at all to say you can't create an alternative world history where this tech did originate among the other kingdoms first. But there is nothing wrong with it developing first among the Fire Nation, it makes pretty decent sense that it would.

[Peelee]

Creating steel making furnaces is very much not negligible. Technology to make good steel/appropriate furnaces has been found and then lost at least three times throughout history that I know of. Working furnaces to get accurate smelting is hard. Hell a good section of the world never invented it until outside forces brought it, often through violence.

The fact that it's easy for outsiders to then work the technology would be why once the war ends and people start actually working together we see a general dispersal of such technology throughout the world in Korra. But that doesn't really matter to the circumstances to create the technology in the first place.

There is of course also the circumstances of necessity to create. Why would steel be a big development in the Water Tribes when they live in igloos? If people can build castle walls and irrigation ditches with a bunch of punches and stomps the need for the metal tools to develop steel plows?

This is not at all to say you can't create an alternative world history where this tech did originate among the other kingdoms first. But there is nothing wrong with it developing first among the Fire Nation, it makes pretty decent sense that it would.

The Earth Kingdom uses steel in their prisons, and have steel devices used to capture of their earth benders. Given that the Fire Nation is decidedly unfriendly towards them, it is safe to say they can make steel independently, regardless of whoever came up with it. And, again, they are in a much better position to obtain and process the required materials quickly and efficiently.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah but here is the problem with Earth: philosophically, its slow to change. and when it does change its often violent, like an avalanche, eruption, earthquake, a cave in...things like before it settles. so it wouldn't be as good of a fit as fire for industrializing first, because looking at it from the Fire nation perspective: they are the flame of innovation and progress, because change isn't achieved by being patient or steady, but by forging ahead, taking risks and being passionate about what you can do to change things for the better, no matter how much you get burned along the way. its just that those flames can also make you zealously believe your the greatest in your superiority and burn anyone who gets in your way.

Earth on the other hand....

Earth has been consistently portrayed as the least open to innovation or change. Ba-Sing-Se when we first find it is under so much denial its busy trying to lie to itself that there is no war, a village trying to judge Aang for the actions of Avatar Kyoshi before that was clearly holding onto a grudge for a quite a long time, as Avatars can live longer than most people, like 200 years or so, and Kyoshi is like, the avatar before Roku, this is somewhere about five hundred years before the events of the series, thats a ridiculously long time for a village to hold a grudge.

oh and the Great Divide, that nonsense where two tribes had a feud for like a hundred years over something we don't even know? yeah that happened, no matter how much we want to skip over it.

oh and that other earth village that listens to the fortune teller for like everything that ticked off Sokka something fierce.

or the captured Earthbenders who just all accepted their fate instead of doing something about it and needed a kick in the pants to get going.

and of course in Korra, the Earth Kingdom is socio-economically behind everyone, being filled with slums, ruled by a cruel despot, and when they do change its a violent sudden change that....leads to another cruel dictator whose entire goal is nothing but reclaiming what the Earth Kingdom lost and making it great again while ignoring important spiritual matter with their siphoning of spirit energy. Wah-Wah. :smalltongue:

(which reflects a different part of Earth everyone forgets: its the most materialistic of the elements and thus also greedy, concerned with base pleasures, and whats in front of them rather than higher thoughts, so it perfectly in character for Earth to ignore more spiritual or mental matters since their primary concern are worldly ones, while Fire is a light so it can see further and dream of a better different tomorrow in its passion, even as it leads them down dark paths)

of course, Air and Water have their own reasons why they might not industrialize first:
Air and its monks have the opposite problem of Earth's problems: they may be open-minded, but are so pre-occupied with the theoretical, the philosophical and the abstract that and they don't really get anything practical done. they may have the greatest wisdom of the nations because of their way of life, but they are so caught up in their ivory tower musings that they simply don't touch the Earth as it were to get their hands dirty. they simply didn't have the work ethic to actually do the things that Fire did.

Water on the other hand is also open to change in that it can take many states, be adaptable and fill many containers....but the problem with that is, is that its not changing the world, its changing YOURSELF and how you live in it. water is to some extent, reactive in its change. after all, the tides only go in and out because of the moon, and water is only at its temperatures to be like this because fire warms the earth. its easier to change yourself to live in your circumstances, when industrialization is all about changing the circumstances around you. thus why Water was able to industrialize and adapt to Fire's tech faster but didn't come up with any of it themselves- the philosophy of Water quite simply is one that requires someone else to make the first push so they can roll with it.

so Fire got the industrialization first, because its the exact combination of "change other things" and balance of "practical hard work" and "ideas".

[Zmeoaice]

Earth comes remarkably close, if not equivalent/overpassing them, since their powers would make mining/refining significantly easier, which affects both fuel and materials. Creating fire is almost negligible, and the machines don't really need control, since the Water Tribespeople can work a Fire Nation ship well enough to fool other Fire Nation ships.

There's a few other things to consider

The Earth Kingdom is more less densely populated than the Fire Nation due to its size and has to spread it's resources out, while the Fire Nation could have concentrated on its Islands.

Also not everyone is a bender. And Firebenders using their bender to fuel their vehicles is more efficient than Earthbenders digging up coal to do the same, or spending kinetic energy pushing machines. (Also we don't know what the bender-to-nonbender ration is in each nation)

Also the Earthbenders relying on their bending might have handicapped them in the long term. Since they can use bending to move stuff the densely populated cities like Ba Sing Se and Omashu would have less of a reason to industrialize, while the Fire nation needed machines to do similar things.

[Dienekes]

The Earth Kingdom uses steel in their prisons, and have steel devices used to capture of their earth benders. Given that the Fire Nation is decidedly unfriendly towards them, it is safe to say they can make steel independently, regardless of whoever came up with it. And, again, they are in a much better position to obtain and process the required materials quickly and efficiently.

After 100 years of war, with them directly interacting with the enemy technology. And the Fire Nation still clearly has a more advanced military application of steel tech.

And are they in a better position to process steel? Because that's a process of binding oxygen to iron ore is a heat based process requiring some sort of advanced furnace. Now getting iron ore? Sure. I can see that being pretty easily an Earth Kingdom skill. Of course I don't know what they're going to be doing with it, much. They don't need steel for agriculture, building, or war really. And that need is usually one of the factors for the development of technology.

[Peelee]

Yeah but here is the problem with Earth: philosophically, its slow to change. and when it does change its often violent, like an avalanche, eruption, earthquake, a cave in...things like before it settles. so it wouldn't be as good of a fit as fire for industrializing first, because looking at it from the Fire nation perspective: they are the flame of innovation and progress, because change isn't achieved by being patient or steady, but by forging ahead, taking risks and being passionate about what you can do to change things for the better, no matter how much you get burned along the way. its just that those flames can also make you zealously believe your the greatest in your superiority and burn anyone who gets in your way.
Please ignore the parts I write below that do not apply to you; it's easier to just lump everything into a single argument here.

There's a few other things to consider

The Earth Kingdom is more less densely populated than the Fire Nation due to its size and has to spread it's resources out, while the Fire Nation could have concentrated on its Islands.

Also not everyone is a bender. And Firebenders using their bender to fuel their vehicles is more efficient than Earthbenders digging up coal to do the same, or spending kinetic energy pushing machines. (Also we don't know what the bender-to-nonbender ration is in each nation)

Also the Earthbenders relying on their bending might have handicapped them in the long term. Since they can use bending to move stuff the densely populated cities like Ba Sing Se and Omashu would have less of a reason to industrialize, while the Fire nation needed machines to do similar things.


After 100 years of war, with them directly interacting with the enemy technology. And the Fire Nation still clearly has a more advanced military application of steel tech.

And are they in a better position to process steel? Because that's a process of binding oxygen to iron ore is a heat based process requiring some sort of advanced furnace. Now getting iron ore? Sure. I can see that being pretty easily an Earth Kingdom skill. Of course I don't know what they're going to be doing with it, much. They don't need steel for agriculture, building, or war really. And that need is usually one of the factors for the development of technology.

OK, y'all seem to be under the impression that I am arguing that, as currently written, earth could have been the aggressor. I am not. I am saying that it could have been written differently to start with, with Earth as the aggressor nation. A sudden militaristic attack after ages upon ages of peace? That sounds like "slow to change, and when it does, it dies so violently" to me. A hundred year war, unrelenting as gains the others, strong, steadfast, resolute, and unyielding? Earth fits fine there.

I am not saying that Earth (or any other element) could be the aggressor nation with the exact same scripts and the names swapped. I am saying that Earth (or any other element) could have been the aggressor nation while still keeping the same basic storyline of "avatar, last of X group of people, must master the other elements and free the world from the oppression and war wrought by the Y Nation", and keeping the same themes that the show as written explored, while having fairly significant changes to the actual details of the world.

[t209]

OK, y'all seem to be under the impression that I am arguing that, as currently written, earth could have been the aggressor. I am not. I am saying that it could have been written differently to start with, with Earth as the aggressor nation. A sudden militaristic attack after ages upon ages of peace? That sounds like "slow to change, and when it does, it dies so violently" to me. A hundred year war, unrelenting as gains the others, strong, steadfast, resolute, and unyielding? Earth fits fine there.

I am not saying that Earth (or any other element) could be the aggressor nation with the exact same scripts and the names swapped. I am saying that Earth (or any other element) could have been the aggressor nation while still keeping the same basic storyline of "avatar, last of X group of people, must master the other elements and free the world from the oppression and war wrought by the Y Nation", and keeping the same themes that the show as written explored, while having fairly significant changes to the actual details of the world.
Also if I were to put more in spoiler,
Earth Kingdom also suffer from civil war and political division, even the "Kingdom" was formed after Ba Sing Se hegemonized nearby states and control is loose instead (like Omashu having their own king and villages having different laws).
I mean even in more peaceful times, most of the conflicts occur in the Earth Kingdom either in feudal struggles or warlord rebellion (Chin the Conqueror being a major example).

[Peelee]

Welp, found Legend of Korra on Amazon.

One episode in, and I both like and dislike it. I pretty much like the direction they're taking it in (big city founded for all the different people to live in together, class warfare brewing among the non-benders being taken advantage of by benders, solid basis for the non-benders complaints as organized crime seems to be comprised of benders, etc.), but I really don't like the technology they've brought in - cars, radios, movies... I really liked in TLA how each culture used their unique abilities to replicate aspects of modern life without resorting to technology, and felt that added a whole lot to the worldbuilding in making a unique and interesting world. Even the tanks I wasn't a big fan of, despite them being little more than armored shells to protect the firebenders acting as artillery, but they were still unique and interesting. The further technological revolution in Korra seems to lose that uniqueness. That's my only complaint so far, but it's a biggie.

[Rynjin]

The main issue with Korra is that it leans heavily into protagonist centered morality. But overall, season 1 is quite good. Season 2 is, for the most part, hot garbage, and the first quarter of season 3 made me drop the show. I hear by endgame, season 3 and all of season 4 are good though.

[Illven]

The main issue with Korra is that it leans heavily into protagonist centered morality. But overall, season 1 is quite good. Season 2 is, for the most part, hot garbage, and the first quarter of season 3 made me drop the show. I hear by endgame, season 3 and all of season 4 are good though.

That part surprises me. I've heard of people dropping after season 2, but not season 3.

[understatement]

Season 3 ends pretty nicely, and season 4 is fine. You'll find few that prefer LoK over ATLA, but I think as a sequel series it holds quite well on its own (and is better than many other cartoon shows).

[Lord Raziere]

I'll be the brave person here and say I actually liked all four Korra seasons and think the show doesn't deserve nearly as much hate as it gets.

[LaZodiac]

I'll be the brave person here and say I actually liked all four Korra seasons and think the show doesn't deserve nearly as much as hate as it gets.

Seconded *high five*.

I acknowledge its problems, but feel on the whole it is excellent as a continuation could be.

[Dienekes]

I'll be the brave person here and say I actually liked all four Korra seasons and think the show doesn't deserve nearly as much as hate as it gets.

Personally, I dropped it mid season 2.

Which isn't to say I think it was bad really. I admit how they handled the villain in S1 did put a bad taste in my mouth for spoilery reasons. But my ultimate view was just: it's fine. It's not great. It's not a horrible stain on ATLA's good name. It's just, you know, fine.

[Illven]

I didn't much like season 2, but the rest of it was great, and the ending of season 4 was perfect.

[Anonymouswizard]

I have serious problems with the clearly compressed nature of Season 1 (the Pro Bending plot was clearly meant to have a few additional episodes of setup and character development), season 2 is a mess but Beginnings is arguably worth it for to a during and more interesting plot, season 3 begins weak and ends strongly, and season 4 is mostly solid but rarely great. It's not a bad show, but it has more problems than Legend of Aang did.

On that note, *snicker*, bender.

[BisectedBrioche]

Korra's still better than average at least for the most part...but it's being compared to, y'know, Avatar! I think that's why it gets so much flack.

Oddly enough, though, the ending makes it more culturally relevant, if only because...

Confirming Korra and Asami's relationship was basically the first step in LGBTQ+ folk being openly portrayed in childrens' media.

[GloatingSwine]

Personally, I dropped it mid season 2.

Which isn't to say I think it was bad really. I admit how they handled the villain in S1 did put a bad taste in my mouth for spoilery reasons. But my ultimate view was just: it's fine. It's not great. It's not a horrible stain on ATLA's good name. It's just, you know, fine.

Season 2 is the weakest. Season 3 is the strongest.

I agree that season 1 kind of fell apart at the end, because Amon is basically right, but the series doesn't do enough work to address the fact that he's right and uses the fact that he's a hypocrite to distract from it.

That's why season 3 is the best, because Zaheer is similarly right in the things he's fighting for, but they cop out less with him at the end.

Overall though Legend of Korra has a big structural problem that each season is a single serialised story with one antagonist, which means that the overall structure tends to be that the heroes lose for 10 episodes then suddenly win at the end. There's less of a sense of the characters undergoing personal growth to get to the point where they can win without seeing them overcome the minor obstacles on the path that the og gaang did because of the more episodic structure.

The original series has some of the best pacing in TV because it has episodic stories, but all of them have something in that advances the season arc, and the season arcs combine to fulfil the overall story arc. Very few shows managed to be so consistent in delivering on all three narrative layers.

[Morty]

I am in a peculiar situation because while I do think the first two seasons of LoK are really very bad, the other two are quite good and the level of hatred towards it is excessive. Then again, I'm generally perpetually fed up with the Internet rage machine these days. It's like people can't like something without having to tear down something related.

I loved the first season as I watched it, then the finale quickly turned it into distaste. The second one was mostly a bit of a mess from start to finish, but with some high points too. Something the first two seasons share is a failure to engage with conflicts they set up. Though I do remember starting to watch the third season mostly out of morbid curiosity, then suddenly finding that it's actually good. The first episode's name, Breath of Fresh Air, is really apt.

[GloatingSwine]

I'm not as sold on season 4, I think it's about as good as the good bits of season 1.

(Another problem of the early seasons is that they focus too much on Mako and basically treat Bolin as a perpetual buttmonkey, a state he would only really recover from in season 3. I have furniture with more personality than Mako.)

[Morty]

Season Four isn't as good as Season Three, no. I would still rank it as higher than Season One overall, but "about as good as the good bits of season 1" might be an apt description. Season One has some legitimately strong moments, it's just that the main plots and character arcs fail to hold them together.

[druid91]

That's the thing, though; the other benders could also have developed machines based on their elements. Water could have hydraulics, Air could have had steam/pressure, and Earth... well, Earth is harder.

ETA: Actually, Earth would similar to Fire, since the Fire Nation uses coal-fired engines, and Earth benders would be most suitable to easily and quickly mining and refining coal.

I mean, the whole point of using combustion engines is to spin turbines to create motive force. I feel like it wouldn't be that hard to just make a 'wind mill' with rocks on the end instead of wind catching arms and get a pair of Earth benders to accelerate it to speeds providing the same function.

After all we repeatedly see them launch boulders the size of houses miles into the sky, how hard could it be to spin a stick covered in rocks?

[Pex]

It's a common trope there has to be the one character who's the butt of the joke, the idiot jerk who's always wrong. That's Sokka. It's a kids show, so I try to let it go, but it gets real annoying real fast. I would have preferred a more competent character to show you don't need to be a Bender to be respected or be a hero in the show's universe. Finally, he gets his moment to shine at the North Air Bender temple by figuring out how to detect the gas leaks and fixing the Balloon. I'm expecting next episode he's back to being the idiot jerk, but here's to hoping he gets more moments to shine. Maybe he learns something about himself with the Water Benders and is more competent in Book 2.

[Peelee]

It's a common trope there has to be the one character who's the butt of the joke, the idiot jerk who's always wrong. That's Sokka. It's a kids show, so I try to let it go, but it gets real annoying real fast. I would have preferred a more competent character to show you don't need to be a Bender to be respected or be a hero in the show's universe. Finally, he gets his moment to shine at the North Air Bender temple by figuring out how to detect the gas leaks and fixing the Balloon. I'm expecting next episode he's back to being the idiot jerk, but here's to hoping he gets more moments to shine. Maybe he learns something about himself with the Water Benders and is more competent in Book 2.

I suspect by the end of the show, you'll love Sokka. Everyone does (though I loved him by the point you're at already, since his character development was already well underway).

[Lord Raziere]

I suspect by the end of the show, you'll love Sokka. Everyone does (though I loved him by the point you're at already, since his character development was already well underway).

Yeah, I wouldn't write him off. Aang tends to avoid his own problems for the sake of goofing off, and Katara tends to take up goodhearted causes that get her into trouble and thus both think with their hearts while Sokka is actually the most brainy and tactical of the group despite his humorous nature.

[Hagashager]

It's a common trope there has to be the one character who's the butt of the joke, the idiot jerk who's always wrong. That's Sokka. It's a kids show, so I try to let it go, but it gets real annoying real fast. I would have preferred a more competent character to show you don't need to be a Bender to be respected or be a hero in the show's universe. Finally, he gets his moment to shine at the North Air Bender temple by figuring out how to detect the gas leaks and fixing the Balloon. I'm expecting next episode he's back to being the idiot jerk, but here's to hoping he gets more moments to shine. Maybe he learns something about himself with the Water Benders and is more competent in Book 2.

You'll be happy to know he gets his development too. He is very much the non-Bender hero you're asking for it just takes a while.

Bear in mind that Book 1 was when the profucers were testing the waters of the show. This is the same channel that had Spongebob and Fairly-Odd Parents. They were not sure yet how far off the beaten path the Nickolodeon executives would let them go.

[Lethologica]

I am in a peculiar situation because while I do think the first two seasons of LoK are really very bad, the other two are quite good and the level of hatred towards it is excessive. Then again, I'm generally perpetually fed up with the Internet rage machine these days. It's like people can't like something without having to tear down something related.

I loved the first season as I watched it, then the finale quickly turned it into distaste. The second one was mostly a bit of a mess from start to finish, but with some high points too. Something the first two seasons share is a failure to engage with conflicts they set up. Though I do remember starting to watch the third season mostly out of morbid curiosity, then suddenly finding that it's actually good. The first episode's name, Breath of Fresh Air, is really apt.
It doesn't help that the bad seasons come first, so the rage machine revved up and reached its conclusions early. I still haven't gotten around to watching seasons 3 and 4.

[Peelee]

Yeah, I wouldn't write him off. Aang tends to avoid his own problems for the sake of goofing off, and Katara tends to take up goodhearted causes that get her into trouble and thus both think with their hearts while Sokka is actually the most brainy and tactical of the group despite his humorous nature.

Also, he's already undergone changes by this point; the Kyoshi Warriors help knock him out if his sexist views pretty quickly, and he takes to their training remarkably fast, going from being completely outclassed by Suki to being able to take her down, much to her own embarrassment, in less than a day.

Of course, she still completely outclasses him in pure martial ability, but it shows that he is remarkably capable, a fast learner and a quick thinker. Plus, even if there were alternate universes where he gets with Yue or Ty Lee, he would be dating/marrying up. I like that all the possible love interests were more capable than he was, despite him being incredibly competent to begin with. It's a refreshing change.

[Joran]

I am in a peculiar situation because while I do think the first two seasons of LoK are really very bad, the other two are quite good and the level of hatred towards it is excessive. Then again, I'm generally perpetually fed up with the Internet rage machine these days. It's like people can't like something without having to tear down something related.

I loved the first season as I watched it, then the finale quickly turned it into distaste. The second one was mostly a bit of a mess from start to finish, but with some high points too. Something the first two seasons share is a failure to engage with conflicts they set up. Though I do remember starting to watch the third season mostly out of morbid curiosity, then suddenly finding that it's actually good. The first episode's name, Breath of Fresh Air, is really apt.

Yup, same here. I found the conflicts they set up in season 1 and 2 interesting, but they didn't do a good job of resolving them in a way that was satisfying. I picked up season 3 and 4 after a gap of a few years (I think Nickelodeon had dropped it off TV and put it on streaming) and they were better.

Netflix is reportedly going to do a live action version of Avatar, but I think Avatar doesn't need to be re-told at all; it's a great story that still holds up. I'd like to see what a great creator getting a second crack at Korra could do, because there's a lot there's a lot of great ideas but weren't well executed.

[GloatingSwine]

Also, he's already undergone changes by this point; the Kyoshi Warriors help knock him out if his sexist views pretty quickly, and he takes to their training remarkably fast, going from being completely outclassed by Suki to being able to take her down, much to her own embarrassment, in less than a day.

Of course, she still completely outclasses him in pure martial ability, but it shows that he is remarkably capable, a fast learner and a quick thinker. Plus, even if there were alternate universes where he gets with Yue or Ty Lee, he would be dating/marrying up. I like that all the possible love interests were more capable than he was, despite him being incredibly competent to begin with. It's a refreshing change.

I just want to also point out that in that episode something happens which does not usually happen in this sort of situation on TV (kids or otherwise).

Sokka goes back and apologises without being told to. He isn't pushed into it by another character, he isn't shamed into it, he does it because he's capable of self-reflection and decides it for himself.

[Peelee]

I just want to also point out that in that episode something happens which does not usually happen in this sort of situation on TV (kids or otherwise).

Sokka goes back and apologises without being told to. He isn't pushed into it by another character, he isn't shamed into it, he does it because he's capable of self-reflection and decides it for himself.

Indeed. It's a pretty great episode all around.

Also, the episode with Jet in Book 1 has Sokka acting with a lot of dignity and ethical justification, even while imprisoned.

[Rynjin]

I think the thing with Sokka being the butt monkey is different from other series, largely because the series rarely treats Sokka as if he DESERVES the treatment he gets. A lot of stuff is played for laughs, and is jokes at his expense, but it's almost never as some sort of karmic comeuppance for his actions; the boy just has absolutely terrible luck.

The few times it is framed as him being in the wrong somehow are usually the most frustrating ones, like the joke in season 2 about needing to leave his boomerang behind even though everyone else got to grab their stuff.

[Pex]

Indeed. It's a pretty great episode all around.

Also, the episode with Jet in Book 1 has Sokka acting with a lot of dignity and ethical justification, even while imprisoned.

I liked that episode because for the first time Sokka was right and Katara was wrong. It's my own bias. I don't like it when I'm supposed to go along with laughing at the idiot jerk. Sometimes the idiot jerk is right, but the show makes him wrong, meaning the trope in general. Frank Burns (MASH), Brainy Smurf (Smurfs), Eric The Cavalier (Dungeons & Dragons), Three (Dark Matter). I'm not saying they're always right, but it galls me when they're never right even when what they're saying is reasonable. Even in Batman vs Superman Lex Luthor had a good point, but the movie had to make him the villain and be wrong by blowing up a Congressional hearing.

[Keltest]

As the non-bender in the team, Sokka is in a lot of ways the audience surrogate in the series. He's the one who gets bending and avatar stuff explained to him so that the audience knows about it, and he's the one who really pushes to understand more about how things work, and the implications thereof. He also helps to show that while non-benders are maybe disadvantaged, they arent helpless by any means.

[Lord Raziere]

I liked that episode because for the first time Sokka was right and Katara was wrong. It's my own bias. I don't like it when I'm supposed to go along with laughing at the idiot jerk. Sometimes the idiot jerk is right, but the show makes him wrong, meaning the trope in general. Frank Burns (MASH), Brainy Smurf (Smurfs), Eric The Cavalier (Dungeons & Dragons), Three (Dark Matter). I'm not saying they're always right, but it galls me when they're never right even when what they're saying is reasonable. Even in Batman vs Superman Lex Luthor had a good point, but the movie had to make him the villain and be wrong by blowing up a Congressional hearing.

Well your still on season 1.

its the most episodic season of them all. these episodes are mostly about the Gaang experiencing adventures throughout the setting to establish what the world is like, what the status quo is, and where they fit into it, and thus their conflicts are partly internal to work out the group dynamics and who THEY are before we go shaking things up.

I could recount all the awesome things that Sokka has done and the character development he undergoes, but he is a constant throughout the series and thus would be spoilers for quite a lot of it. and I wouldn't say the show says he is wrong or thinks that he is an idiot jerk, I would say people in the show don't listen to him even when they really should at times. I don't know any of those characters and never watched BvS, but I guarantee you that Sokka will not have his points be shown to be wrong because he did a villainous action, because he never becomes one.

[Rater202]

So I haven't been following the thread to closely... I notice that there was a discussion about swapping around the roles of the nations? Anyway, I'm starting to get back into it again after... honestly not touching it that much since it ended.

I never watched Korra.

It'll be neat getting familiar with it again via watching someone else get into it.

[Peelee]

The main issue with Korra is that it leans heavily into protagonist centered morality. But overall, season 1 is quite good. Season 2 is, for the most part, hot garbage, and the first quarter of season 3 made me drop the show. I hear by endgame, season 3 and all of season 4 are good though.

A good way into Season 3 now, and I'm wondering why most people hated Season 2. The first half was pretty good, even if the second half dropped the ball quite a bit. Season 3 seems worse overall.

[Anteros]

A good way into Season 3 now, and I'm wondering why most people hated Season 2. The first half was pretty good, even if the second half dropped the ball quite a bit. Season 3 seems worse overall.

It's been a while since I've watched Korra, but let me see if I can remember my problems with season 2. Season 1's villain had some solid points and I actually respected them as a villain. It explores the relationship between benders and non benders, and each character has a solid arc and grows. Season 2 relies far too heavily on the spirit world, which is largely esoteric and I think a lot of people view it as one of the weakest parts of the setting. However, the biggest problem with season 2 for me is the same problem I have with every other season on the show.

By far the biggest problem with later seasons of the show is the way it just resets everyone's character development at the start of each season so they can tell you the exact same arcs again. Remember how Bolin and Mako matured and grew more responsible by the end of the first season? Well, I hope you like those arcs because you're going to see them 3 more times. No one in the series develops or grows as a person for any length of time without it being reset.

[Saph]

I feel I should probably warn Pex that the "Sokka is an incompetent moron" thing doesn't really go away. He gets moments in Season 2 where he's portrayed as the smart guy, but the very next episode he'll go right back to being so dumb he can't pour water out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

I mean, Sokka literally spends an entire episode of Season 2 needing to be rescued after being overcome and defeated by a small hole in the ground. It gets especially jarring when you compare it to the worshipful way Katara's treated.

[Razade]

A good way into Season 3 now, and I'm wondering why most people hated Season 2. The first half was pretty good, even if the second half dropped the ball quite a bit. Season 3 seems worse overall.

The issue most people I've seen have with Season 2 is that they feel that the villain isn't really all that well developed (none of the villains Korra are well developed except maybe the Fourth Season's) and that a lot of the Spirit World stuff soft-resets a lot of stuff introduced already. I for one found the stuff with the first Avatar really cool and while the Ravaa stuff wasn't compelling to me, I didn't really need the Avatar State explained, I mostly found Season 2 inoffensive.

Season 3 and 4 seem to be the Seasons everyone loves the most. My biggest problem with the latter seasons and even a little in Season 2 is just how moppy and sad they make Korra. She's supposed to be this aggressive, go-get-em sort of character and they make her weak and scared and unsure of herself in ways that Aang really never experienced. Part of it is that Korra is older and there's less of a "save the world" narrative to Korra but another part of it was Nickelodeon's executive meddling and their attempts to sink the show because they didn't feel people would care about Korra as a character. It's why they took the 4th season and moved it off to their streaming service in its final season. The creators have put out some messages about their time on Korra and just how much of a pain Nick was over the whole production.

The worst part is those unsure, tense, introspective moments aren't even bad. They're just bad because they dominate a short run season. If Korra was as long as the first series those more mature topics might actually have been a good addition to the series. Instead they just clog up what was a passing show. I also don't see the appeal of the third season myself. That's when the mope mode goes into overdrive. The villain's message re: The Avatar was also pretty stupid and I couldn't get behind it even as a generic plot.

I wish we'd seen more of the bending sport and how they'd have to work to integrate Air Benders returning to the world myself. That was a more compelling and interesting storyline than anything they drummed up in the later season. Sad that that really took a backseat for the melodrama.

[Anteros]

I feel I should probably warn Pex that the "Sokka is an incompetent moron" thing doesn't really go away. He gets moments in Season 2 where he's portrayed as the smart guy, but the very next episode he'll go right back to being so dumb he can't pour water out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

I mean, Sokka literally spends an entire episode of Season 2 needing to be rescued after being overcome and defeated by a small hole in the ground. It gets especially jarring when you compare it to the worshipful way Katara's treated.

It's a little strange, because the other characters treat him as the brains of the team and a competent warrior, but it never really feels earned. The only plans he ever comes up with all fail, and pretty much anything he ever accomplishes is dumb luck. Even in his best episode he basically trains with a sword-master for one day, forges a sword, and then immediately loses it. He has the weakest character arc on the show, and it's not close.

[Anonymouswizard]

The issue most people I've seen have with Season 2 is that they feel that the villain isn't really all that well developed (none of the villains Korra are well developed except maybe the Fourth Season's) and that a lot of the Spirit World stuff soft-resets a lot of stuff introduced already. I for one found the stuff with the first Avatar really cool and while the Ravaa stuff wasn't compelling to me, I didn't really need the Avatar State explained, I mostly found Season 2 inoffensive.

Possibly the worst bits are the ending which requires two Deus ex Machinas to pull off, and the need to introduce Lore about Wan and then immediately remove it from importance by destroying the Avatar's past lives. It also to me feels a bit all over the pace and running around like a headless chicken, except for the Wan episodes.

Season 3 has a more active quest from both the heroes and villains, and even if Zaheer's goal is stupid he goes about it in a somewhat sensible way. And then Season 4 didn't so much undo Mako and Bolin's character development as much as put them in new situations, has possibly the best villain of the show, and spends episodes restoring Korra's character to something more like what she originally was. But it needed to explain the dark avatar business it had going on.

[Peelee]

Possibly the worst bits are the ending which requires two Deus ex Machinas to pull off

Not too different than Aang's ending which requires two Deus ex Machinas, then?:smalltongue:

For reals, though, while I don't at all mind the out-of-nowhere ability to take away bending, he's the Avatar, and still discovering the full range of his powers and abilities, so there's at least some grounding for letting that fly. But the red-vs-blue battle afterwards, that was just unnecessary padding that could have been left off, IMO; he's already showing his strength of will be keeping to his pacifistic convictions even in the Avatar state.
As for season 3 of Korra...I kind of feel like Zaheer is massively overpowered. Firstly, he's a member of the Red Lotus without having any sort of bending, which isn't odd in and of itself - the White Lotus had a master swordsman, after all - but there's nothing saying what exactly his skills were to begin with, despite the fact that he ran with a group of enormously powerful Benders; it's somewhat alluded that he is the brains, but he doesn't really make good plans, and he seems more spiritual than anything else. Once he does get Air bending, he is almost instantly a master of it, and is even capable of taking down Tenzin, despite that Tenzin is teh son of two powerful benders, one being the Avatar, and that Tenszin has spent the vast majority of his life studying and practicing airbending. It just seems way too convenient that he gets airbending out of nowhere and, unlike every other person who gets is, is an instant grandmaster at it.

Oh, and Bolin is generally really fun, especially in Season 2, so that gave me reason to give a lot of the rest a pass. Especially since the first half of S2 overall was really fun, and I didn't start disliking it until the second half.

[dancrilis]

But the red-vs-blue battle afterwards, that was just unnecessary padding that could have been left off, IMO; he's already showing his strength of will be keeping to his pacifistic convictions even in the Avatar state.

I saw that more as a good vs evil rather then willpower thing i.e Aang was more good then Ozai was evil - if he had cracks in his morality he would have broken.


I just don't think Korra post season 1 was very interesting - the villians were kindof boring, and the only think that Korra really needed to beat them was to get serious (and even then not that serious), the only reason they were really ever a threat to her was because she kept having emotional problems.
Season 2 is a bit different because of the monster from nowhere plot - but that also seemed kindof dull really.

Frankly take Korra out of the show and have the non-Avatar characters dealing with the problems (violant equality movements, unwanted cultural change, distrustful anarchy and dictatorship for a cause) might have made a better show.

[Razade]

Not too different than Aang's ending which requires two Deus ex Machinas, then?:smalltongue:


That wasn't well revived by the general fanbase either when it happened either.

[Peelee]

I saw that more as a good vs evil rather then willpower thing i.e Aang was more good then Ozai was evil - if he had cracks in his morality he would have broken.
Imean, it clearly is, but the whole show was kind of about that, as well as Aang's moral dilemma about how to stop Ozai to begin with, so it seemed unnecessary at best and gratuitous at worst to me.

I just don't think Korra post season 1 was very interesting - the villians were kindof boring, and the only think that Korra really needed to beat them was to get serious (and even then not that serious), the only reason they were really ever a threat to her was because she kept having emotional problems.
Season 2 is a bit different because of the monster from nowhere plot - but that also seemed kindof dull really.

Frankly take Korra out of the show and have the non-Avatar characters dealing with the problems (violant equality movements, unwanted cultural change, distrustful anarchy and dictatorship for a cause) might have made a better show.

Frankly, because of how I'd heard almost entirely mixed reviews about Korra to start with, I just kind of tried to sit back and enjoy the ride for what it is. And that's been going well enough (with some rocky parts, definitely) that I'm still trucking. Unlike, say, The Last Airbender, which had me break down laughing at some points because it was so bad. So very, very bad.

[Rater202]

The issue most people I've seen have with Season 2 is that they feel that the villain isn't really all that well developed (none of the villains Korra are well developed except maybe the Fourth Season's) and that a lot of the Spirit World stuff soft-resets a lot of stuff introduced already. I for one found the stuff with the first Avatar really cool and while the Ravaa stuff wasn't compelling to me, I didn't really need the Avatar State explained, I mostly found Season 2 inoffensive.

Season 3 and 4 seem to be the Seasons everyone loves the most. My biggest problem with the latter seasons and even a little in Season 2 is just how moppy and sad they make Korra. She's supposed to be this aggressive, go-get-em sort of character and they make her weak and scared and unsure of herself in ways that Aang really never experienced. Part of it is that Korra is older and there's less of a "save the world" narrative to Korra but another part of it was Nickelodeon's executive meddling and their attempts to sink the show because they didn't feel people would care about Korra as a character. It's why they took the 4th season and moved it off to their streaming service in its final season. The creators have put out some messages about their time on Korra and just how much of a pain Nick was over the whole production.

The worst part is those unsure, tense, introspective moments aren't even bad. They're just bad because they dominate a short run season. If Korra was as long as the first series those more mature topics might actually have been a good addition to the series. Instead they just clog up what was a passing show. I also don't see the appeal of the third season myself. That's when the mope mode goes into overdrive. The villain's message re: The Avatar was also pretty stupid and I couldn't get behind it even as a generic plot.

I wish we'd seen more of the bending sport and how they'd have to work to integrate Air Benders returning to the world myself. That was a more compelling and interesting storyline than anything they drummed up in the later season. Sad that that really took a backseat for the melodrama.

That's a bit ironic considering that a couple of other shows got screwed over so they could devote resources to the original Avatar.

[Thufir]

I feel I should probably warn Pex that the "Sokka is an incompetent moron" thing doesn't really go away. He gets moments in Season 2 where he's portrayed as the smart guy, but the very next episode he'll go right back to being so dumb he can't pour water out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

I mean, Sokka literally spends an entire episode of Season 2 needing to be rescued after being overcome and defeated by a small hole in the ground. It gets especially jarring when you compare it to the worshipful way Katara's treated.

I strongly disagree. Moron, maybe. Incompetent, no. As others have noted, he has terrible luck, which is what causes the hole in the ground problem, along with the fact that ultimately he is the comic relief character among other things. But when it comes to his actual areas of expertise, he is clearly competent. He is a skilled warrior, just one without the natural advantage of bending.


The only plans he ever comes up with all fail, and pretty much anything he ever accomplishes is dumb luck.

This is not at all true. Just in Book 1:
* It's his idea at the earthbender prison to have Aang airbend the coal up from the bottom of the rig. The weak point in that plan in Katara's ability to convince the earthbenders to use it.
* He thinks on his feet and figures out how to turn Zuko and the pirates against each other - a predicament they wouldn't have been in if not for Katara.
* He figures out what Jet's doing, escapes and save everyone in the village.
* He has the plan to save Aunt Wu's village from the volcano.
* He makes effective use of Katara's and Aang's bending abilities when he does his ice-dodging.
* He's the one with the idea to confuse the shirshu by spilling the perfume everywhere.
* The aforementioned bits at the Northern Air Temple.

The one plan he made which did fail was the attempt to get into the inner sanctum at the Fire Temple, and they were able to improvise around that.


Even in his best episode he basically trains with a sword-master for one day, forges a sword, and then immediately loses it.

Last I checked, "15 episodes later in the series finale" is not what "immediately" means.

[Rynjin]

I guess I'll be the odd man out that defends the way Ozai was defeated, even though it took two watches of the series for me to form that opinion.

Stuff about the Lion Turtles was foreshadowed since back in season 1 as I recall (or at least early season 2), them being great masters of spiritual power. That combined with the Avatar being the bridge between spirit and matter, essentially, makes his ability to manipulate spirit make sense. Any lingering doubts I had were cleared up by season 2 of Korra, with the Wan flashbacks; the only part of season 2 I actually liked (I...really could have done without Ravaa, it ruined the entire setting for me and I'd rather pretend it's not real).

It is still a Deus Ex Machina, in the strictest sense, but it's not such an egregious one on further inspection, and no trope is INHERENTLY bad.

[Peelee]

I guess I'll be the odd man out that defends the way Ozai was defeated, even though it took two watches of the series for me to form that opinion.

Stuff about the Lion Turtles was foreshadowed since back in season 1 as I recall (or at least early season 2), them being great masters of spiritual power. That combined with the Avatar being the bridge between spirit and matter, essentially, makes his ability to manipulate spirit make sense. Any lingering doubts I had were cleared up by season 2 of Korra, with the Wan flashbacks; the only part of season 2 I actually liked (I...really could have done without Ravaa, it ruined the entire setting for me and I'd rather pretend it's not real).

It is still a Deus Ex Machina, in the strictest sense, but it's not such an egregious one on further inspection, and no trope is INHERENTLY bad.
I only have one single issue with the finale:Its not taking the bending away, I thought that was great, if it could have been foreshadowed some more (though that's a tough rope to dance on without running the surprise). I'm every cool with the luck aspect of his ki getting unblocked; luck is definitely an element in life, and I actually kind of like that Aang had to be a little lucky.

Its the red/blue good/evil battle of wills when finishing Ozai.at best, it's a blunt reductive restatement of the overall theme of the entire series, let alone the final battle with the Fire Nation and the personal war with Ozai. At worst its useless padding that comes from nowhere, manufactures drama for the sake of manufacturing drama, lasts less than a minute even then, and finishes without any lasting effects or purpose. It could be deleted from the series and nothing would change.
I know I've talked about that before (in this very thread, no less!), but figured I could expand on it. Honestly, I think it's the weakest part of the whole series. I even like the Great Divide episode! But that... I can't stand that.

[Marillion]

As for season 3 of Korra...[SPOILER]I kind of feel like Zaheer is massively overpowered. Firstly, he's a member of the Red Lotus without having any sort of bending, which isn't odd in and of itself - the White Lotus had a master swordsman, after all - but there's nothing saying what exactly his skills were to begin with, despite the fact that he ran with a group of enormously powerful Benders; it's somewhat alluded that he is the brains, but he doesn't really make good plans, and he seems more spiritual than anything else. Once he does get Air bending, he is almost instantly a master of it, and is even capable of taking down Tenzin, despite that Tenzin is teh son of two powerful benders, one being the Avatar, and that Tenszin has spent the vast majority of his life studying and practicing airbending. It just seems way too convenient that he gets airbending out of nowhere and, unlike every other person who gets is, is an instant grandmaster at it.

Oh, and Bolin is generally really fun, especially in Season 2, so that gave me reason to give a lot of the rest a pass. Especially since the first half of S2 overall was really fun, and I didn't start disliking it until the second half.

Season 3

I can see how you thought Zaheer was overpowered, but it makes sense to me. Up to the fight with Tenzin, Zaheer had been getting through based on a combination of 1: Airbending being so difficult to defend against, especially since so few people had even seen it in action, and 2: and his martial arts/assassin training. He demonstrated the latter when he went through the spinning panels: he fiercely dashed through in a straight line without ever taking his eye off the exit, just like an assassin would slip past attackers to reach his target. Contrast with Jinora, who allowed the panels to guide her in gentle, circular motions until she arrived at the other side. That was his place in the group, really: He had the vision, but he wasn't the brains, he was a weapon. Before they all got imprisoned, I'd bet the rest of the Red Lotus would cause chaos while he went in to achieve the actual objective.

But then, Tenzin showed Zaheer what an actual Airbending master could do. Zaheer was on the run almost the whole fight while Tenzin relentlessly beat him down. Zaheer actually seemed almost panicked, to me; he was barely able to defend himself and was beginning to be overwhelmed. Tenzin knew all the things Zaheer could do, while Zaheer only knew a small part of what Tenzin could do. It's only because the rest of the Red Lotus intervened at the last second that Tenzin lost. Even then, if not for their combustion bender, it looked like Tenzin could have held his own against the other three.

I wish we'd had more time with the other Red Lotus members, though. They're pretty much my favorite villain gang.


Bolin is, in fact, the best.

[Morty]

I felt like Zaheer was the best villain of LoK... though really, the competition isn't exactly stiff. Yeah, he becomes extremely good at airbending very quickly, but he had studied the Air Nomad culture extensively and was a skilled martial artist before getting bending - dangerous enough for the White Lotus to lock him up as securely as his bending allies. And when you look closely, his airbending style does differ from that of traditionally-trained airbenders. Plus as Marillion said, Tenzin more or less has his number. He's got a more or less coherent ideology that touches on Korra's own frustration with authority figures. He's solid, if not spectacular. Better than Ozai or Zhao, for sure.

Compare him to Amon, who is all flash and no substance and the revelation that he's just a bloodbender with daddy issues renders him an utter joke. And whose successes mostly boil down to everyone conveniently failing to do anything about his Cunning Plans. And Unalaq... if he had a moustache, he would twirl it relentlessly and he doesn't keep a consistent motivation for more than five minutes.

Kuvira is the only other villain who approaches some kind of quality, even if she's not quite as good as Zaheer.

Aang taking Ozai's bending was appropriate, but I don't really count seeing one picture of a Lion-Turtle in a book and then having one show up and mumble something spiritual at Aang to be "foreshadowing". Sorry, I need a bit more than that to accept a twist that easily solves the hero's fundamental moral quandary. Bending, chi, energy, whatever... it's all fictional and can work however the writers want. Aang's struggle to reconcile his duty as the Avatar with his personal convictions and beliefs of his culture are something that you can't just sweep aside. And unexpectedly giving him the perfect tool to have his cake and eat it too did just that.

[Rater202]

His power of flight is unlocked by letting go of all earthly attachments.

In other words, by opening the last chakra.

Meaning that his other chakras would have to be open.

The dude was almost enlightened and his chi was flowing more or less freely, so of course, he was able to get his bending down quickly.

Anyway... I kind of feel bad about plugging myself, but a little bit ago I tried to start an Avatar-themed game int he free-form roleplay section, for the purpose of playing around with the setting and metaphysics. If anyone's interested? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614793-Avatar-The-Last-Legend-Of-The-Playground(Discussion-and-Interest-Check)&p=24614116)

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah Bolin isn't broken, don't fix him. Sometimes a flat character doesn't need any development, they are just great the way they are and thats fine, sometimes a little even ground is welcome after climbing the mountains of character development whether its for up or down. that and flat characters are less a person that changes and more someone that changes others around them, like a rock bending anything that hits it. it all fits the fact that he is an earthbender: he is unchanging, but he is overall a good guy so its not like he needs to.

@ Rater: yeah I didn't say anything before, but I'm simply not interested in playing a bender. don't get me wrong I love the Avatar setting, but I consider the metaphysics and stories in it pretty much solved and done. I can't really think of anything substantial enough I'd commit to a roleplay for, and there is simply not enough there for me to be interested, and I'd much rather go for a monster/superhero game because there are some character concepts that are much more interesting to me than playing a manipulator of classical elements.

[LibraryOgre]

Some of y'all keep dressing like when you were in high school but wanna drag Bolin for lack of character development. :smallbiggrin:

Teasing aside, we've been limiting our kid's screentime... but my son has realized the loophole. If he asks Daddy to watch Avatar with him, he gets more screen time, because Daddy is always down to watch Avatar.

[dancrilis]

Teasing aside, we've been limiting our kid's screentime... but my son has realized the loophole. If he asks Daddy to watch Avatar with him, he gets more screen time, because Daddy is always down to watch Avatar.

Including the movie?

[LibraryOgre]

Including the movie?

There is no movie.

[druid91]

It's been a while since I've watched Korra, but let me see if I can remember my problems with season 2. Season 1's villain had some solid points and I actually respected them as a villain. It explores the relationship between benders and non benders, and each character has a solid arc and grows. Season 2 relies far too heavily on the spirit world, which is largely esoteric and I think a lot of people view it as one of the weakest parts of the setting. However, the biggest problem with season 2 for me is the same problem I have with every other season on the show.

By far the biggest problem with later seasons of the show is the way it just resets everyone's character development at the start of each season so they can tell you the exact same arcs again. Remember how Bolin and Mako matured and grew more responsible by the end of the first season? Well, I hope you like those arcs because you're going to see them 3 more times. No one in the series develops or grows as a person for any length of time without it being reset.

I... Don't remember that. No. I remember Bolin crying like an infant over Korra kissing Mako, while Mako tried to get him home.

[Dienekes]

I... Don't remember that. No. I remember Bolin crying like an infant over Korra kissing Mako, while Mako tried to get him home.

Yup. Winning the award for “The Only Time Korra Made Me Laugh.”

Really not getting the Bolin love. But then I dropped midway through season 2. Does he get less annoying?

[dancrilis]

Yup. Winning the award for “The Only Time Korra Made Me Laugh.”

Really not getting the Bolin love. But then I dropped midway through season 2. Does he get less annoying?

Don't remember him in season 3 to much - but if I have it right:
Still kindof annoying in that to memory (whining about metalbending).


Season 4 I remember better - if I have it right:

He was better - although things happened to him they didn't seem (to memory) have him go full whining, although there was still a bit (but it was also more justified).

[VoxRationis]

One of the things that bothers me very much about Legend of Korra is that they never show us how the Fire Nation has changed since the first series. Now, the plot has it that things are pretty settled in the FN and there isn't much need for the Avatar to do anything of substance there, but there were four seasons to play with and they could easily have squeezed an episode into showing the FN in its modern state, even while focusing on something else in terms of the actual plot (maybe there would be a summit held there to discuss one of the season-defining problems, or maybe Team Avatar just stops over shortly on their way to go somewhere else). Instead, we see one isolated (and fairly traditional-looking) temple on one island and get Izumi's opinion on one matter of geopolitics. I liked that scene, and it's nice to see a character in that series with a sensible outlook on things for a change, but we don't get A) her opinion or ideas about anything else, or B), insight into how one of the foremost powers in the setting has changed. We've seen so much of them in ATLA, of how their society is developed with this layer of modernity over older elements, of how their people are and are not affected by the culture the leadership has worked to instill. How have Fire Nation citizens handled their abrupt demilitarization*? How has their society, which was already fairly industrialized, changed technologically? Are they prosperous, having thrown the resources they sunk into war into economic development and social programs, or have they languished from a generation of high unemployment as the military was disbanded and from a lack of resources from the former colonies? How has the royal family, an institution deeply affiliated with bender supremacy, interacted with the anti-bending sentiment in the first season of the show? Has any of that sentiment made its way to the Fire Nation? (It might well not have, if the monarchy has spent a generation administrating competently using power rather than violence, but it would be nice to see it either way.) The show spent two entire seasons examining how the Earth Kingdom has adapted (or largely, failed to adapt) to technological and cultural change since the first series, and didn't spend one episode on its counterpart.

*I understand that there were comics about that, but those were in the immediate aftermath of the war, so a generation has passed since then, and that's also supplementary material, and showing things in the core work is generally superior to doing so in supplements; reliance on tie-ins for world-building was one of the weaknesses of the Star Wars sequels.

The other big issue with the setting was the way in which they reinterpreted the Spirit World (meta)physically and then failed to reinterpret it culturally. The Spirit World in ATLA was a reflection of the physical world, the yin to its yang and a natural counterpart. While they were separate for the most part, things in one affected the other, and it all seems like this is the natural order to things. In LoK, the Spirit World is revealed to be separate only by intentional design, and the spirits that seemed like natural outgrowths or incarnations of physical things are reinterpreted as independently existing beings, almost more like aliens, that are so inimical to human life that all of human civilization as we know it has only been possible due to the spirits' active exclusion from one half of the cosmos.
And yet, no one reacts to this. People still treat spirits with awe and reverence (except when they're being portrayed by the show as grouchy, short-sighted workaday sorts). Korra, after learning that A), everything she has ever known has been possible only because the Spirit Portals were closed because B), spirits are incredibly dangerous to human life and only a handful of people in the setting can address that danger, leaving everyone else defenseless against monsters that appear whenever people have negative emotions, chooses to keep them open, and people (and the writers) treat this as an unalloyed good, because spirits are good (again, unless the people are whiny, entitled Republic City citizens who need to cut the Avatar some slack). This is like a Christian dying to find his heart being weighed by Thoth against the Feather of Ma'at and saying nothing about it. It's baffling to have a character (or every character) confronted with evidence that shatters their understanding of the universe and then largely not react to it. If the point of the show was that people are too hidebound to change their viewpoints even when presented with firm evidence, that's one thing, but first, that's rather more cynical than even this series, which is more cynical than its predecessor, tends to be in other respects, and second, the show's writing doesn't seem to be arguing that; it's only something we can infer from what we see.

Another, more minor, problem I had was that modernization in the show was often tied in with Westernization in a setting where the West in a cultural sense does not exist and has never existed. Democratic institutions spring up overnight with no precursors. (The Republics switched from a blue-ribbon panel of appointed leaders to an elected president off-screen, between seasons, in a setting where no one has ever elected anything.) Fashions change to forms more familiar to us. Language and terminology doesn't seem like it's grown from previous incarnations in the setting, but simply been transplanted from the equivalent period in our history.

That said, I don't think the setting design was all bad. Seeing the decentralization in the Earth Kingdom result in a crisis of leadership that addresses the nature of political power was good. Seeing the interplay between tradition and modernity, to the point where a religious traditionalist is offended enough by modern lifestyles to act to seize power in order to counteract prevalent cultural change (the Book 2 conflict before all that Vaatu stuff stole the show), is a reflection of times past and present.

The last main setting gripe I have is one of scale. The Southern Water Tribe was depicted in ATLA as depleted by intentional genocide to the size of a small village, and the Northern Water Tribe was merely one city of moderate size, probably lesser in population than Omashu by itself. In LoK, the Southern Water Tribe has a massive, sprawling city, orders of magnitude larger than either Water population before. We know that some members of the North moved south to help rebuild, but since there was no cause for a mass exodus from the North, we can presume that this was probably a small minority of their population, and the North seems to have the level of available manpower and technological development to be on par with the South, so they're likely of at least roughly equivalent size, and thus also significantly more populous than they were in ATLA. It seems unlikely that this was due to immigration from other regions, as we never see any of the ethnic conflict that would result from that level of immigration (or, indeed, significant numbers of Earth or Fire immigrants), so we are left with the notion that the Water Tribes have experienced at least a 1000% growth rate per generation. This conflicts with the families we see in the show, which generally have somewhere between one and three children, and no one, at least to my recollection, mentions that the Water Tribes are abnormal in this aspect. The biggest family we see on the show is from Ba Sing Se, and the second is Tenzin's family (which is to be expected, since he's being held personally responsible for the task of repopulating an entire ethnic group; one wonders how he sold that notion to Pemma).

I'll edit these in later. I've been writing practically a blog post about just the setting, and my gripes with the show are much more about the writing.
One of the gripes I have here is the introduction of platinum as an unbendable metal. (I suppose this is partly a world-building gripe, but since it is crucial to the plot and only introduced as a concept midway through, I'll I see the writing motivation for it clearly enough; since the Equalists, being nonbenders, depend on technology to compete with the benders that form most of our cast of protagonists, they are vulnerable to metalbenders, who can effortlessly sabotage their technology and disarm them. Therefore, in order that Beifong's police force can't make mincemeat of the Equalists, they needed to introduce a limitation on metalbending.
However... there are a number of reasons why the implementation of this weakness was poorly done. Firstly, Hiroshi introduces it with a taunt, something to the tune of "that wall is made of pure platinum; even [Toph] couldn't bend metal that pure." Obviously, how pure a metal is is something completely separate from what kind of metal it is, so it's not really clear (at least in the quote) what the writers actually mean to be the operating principle here. Secondly, platinum is a terrible choice for this. It's heavy, rare and expensive, and doesn't have the physical properties that make for good machinery. The wall kind of works, since it doesn't need to do anything, but when it becomes clear that Hiroshi (and later others) make war machines, sometimes quite large, out of platinum, it rapidly erodes the suspension of disbelief. Mostly, I thought what was most frightening about the reveal of the platinum wall was the idea that he could afford to build it and have enough money left over to build all the other war machines while running a profitable company.
Book 4 seems to imply that the principle here is that the machines only need to be encased or coated in platinum to function. What's strange here is that bending doesn't normally have much difficulty working past layers of unbendable material. Waterbenders can manipulate the water in a tree even though it's buried beneath a layer of wood, which they can't bend, and I think there were some scenes that showed Katara manipulating water in metal pipes. That said, maybe earthbenders work a little differently; being in a wooden cell was enough to keep Toph imprisoned in Book 3.
Anyway, as the show goes on, the platinum exception just gets more and more ridiculous from its wide use, and it really didn't have to. The Doylist explanation for platinum is that the Equalists needed to be a credible threat to the police force. They could have easily just not had a metalbending police force. Maybe Lin is still one, but metalbenders are just too rare to be able to attract a large number of them to be simple beat cops. They have powerful skills and are likely to use them to rise to the tops of whatever organizations they're in (be they militias, bandit groups, armed forces, or even village hierarchies--better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven), and a cop's salary in Republic City just isn't enough of a draw to get them. This would mean that the Equalists just have to be able to either beat Lin Beifong in spite of her metalbending or strike when she's not around, which shouldn't be difficult.
We begin with a lot of change hastily compressed into a synopsis within the first minute of the first episode. Unfortunately, the changes that get glossed over here are very big things that shouldn't be glossed over. Most glaring is the development of the presidency in Republic City. This is the show's way of addressing what was not addressed in Book 1: the fact that the villain's grievances were legitimate, even if his personal claims were not. I want to stress again that democracy (or even republican systems; the very name "republic" is one of the sourceless Western elements that bother me) is not a value or even really a concept in this setting. When Team Avatar discovers in Ba Sing Se that the Dai Li are running a shadow government, their objection isn't that they're an unaccountable secret police ruling over the populace through fear rather than drawing legitimacy from it, but rather that they have deprived the monarch of his rightful (absolute) power. Moreover, no organization we have seen heretofore works on the principle of popular choice or sovereignty. Organizations seem to answer to either traditional elders, hereditary monarchies, various councils (whose processes of selection is unclear but are never mentioned to involve votes), or various forms of meritocratic unitary leadership ("I'm the best fighter/most learned of this organization, so I run it."). Characters don't ask the populace what they want; they tell them what is to be done. Even characters that we are meant to sympathize with or are considered wise and virtuous in-universe do not object to this state of affairs. Indeed, common civilians in both Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra are often so obnoxious and ignorant that we as viewers may easily conclude that the common people shouldn't have a say in things. The existing Republic City council (I forget what it's called exactly), by virtue of being a federal representative group, is probably one of the most progressive governmental structures, if not the most progressive, that setting has seen, but it's still implausible that they just jump from there to a popularly elected president. (Quick quibble here: what is he the president of? Does he preside over anything? Is there a legislature somewhere?)
Continuing the line of thought of "Team Avatar fails to detect a clear and present danger until it's largely too late," no one objects to the fact that Kuvira does the majority of her unification work in her own name, with only the faintest lip service to the Earth King. Considering that styling a military coup as an act of legitimate national unification was exactly the modus operandi of Unalaaq, it's baffling that no one remarks on this. When Kuvira reveals her power grab openly rebelling against her sovereign while surrounded by powerful benders outside of her own power base and in a position of tremendous vulnerability, no one does anything.

[druid91]

Yup. Winning the award for “The Only Time Korra Made Me Laugh.”

Really not getting the Bolin love. But then I dropped midway through season 2. Does he get less annoying?

Don't get me wrong, I still like Bolin. But I.... Honestly cannot say in any way I recall ANY maturity plot with him and Mako.

Mako was always the responsible, working man of the two of them.

while Bolin was the goofy, irresponsible one who's constantly involved in some kind of get rich quick scheme.

Neither was entirely mature. As evidenced by Mako and his.... Questionable navigation of the pointless and annoying love triangle. And as evidenced by Bolins.... Bolinness.

[Pex]

In Book 2 now. They're really trying to give sympathy to Zuko. It's a common story thread, but it's fine. I wonder if they'll do the sappy solution: Zuko joins Aang and the gang, helps the Avatar defeat the Fire Nation, and become the new Fire Lord. He doesn't have to become the new Fire Lord but otherwise helps to defeat his father and get his revenge or at least his Honor back despite not being the way he originally intended.

[Peelee]

In Book 2 now. They're really trying to give sympathy to Zuko. It's a common story thread, but it's fine. I wonder if they'll do the sappy solution: Zuko joins Aang and the gang, helps the Avatar defeat the Fire Nation, and become the new Fire Lord. He doesn't have to become the new Fire Lord but otherwise helps to defeat his father and get his revenge or at least his Honor back despite not being the way he originally intended.

Imean, even throughout Book 1 Iroh has been around to temper Zuko on the antagonist side of things.

Iroh is, of course, the best.

[dancrilis]

Imean, even throughout Book 1 Iroh has been around to temper Zuko on the antagonist side of things.

Iroh is, of course, the best.

Felt that Iroh was better in books1 and 2 - more dubious about 3.

Think my favourite character might have been Azula, on consideration Iroh might be in second place.

[Lethologica]

Felt that Iroh was better in books1 and 2 - more dubious about 3.

Think my favourite character might have been Azula, on consideration Iroh might be in second place.
This was partly forced by external circumstances - namely, Iroh's VA dying at the end of Book 2.

[dancrilis]

This was partly forced by external circumstances - namely, Iroh's VA dying at the end of Book 2.

I'm aware of that (which was sad and I felt that episode in Book 2 that was dedicated to him was well done), but it wasn't the issue I had:


They turned the own wise mentor into someone who could have made a fair go at ending the fire nation war decades ago.

Even before he lost the seige of Be-Sing-Se he was apparently a good guy (sparing the dragons for instance).
There was debate on if he could have taken his younger brother in a fight so that might have been touch and go - except that he had an entire team that could have helped him and Ozai had no one for the most part who could have stood helped him.

Effectively had Iroh decided at the start of the series to take out Ozai he likely could have, he could have done it before the series also - and the only reason that they gave for him not doing so was 'it is the Avatar's job - if anyone else does it the system will merely continue' and other then helping Zuko he didn't really have any interest in the avatar for the most part.

I would have preferred they left him as a more or less non-action character, there to be a good guy and occassionally helpful but not someone who merely could have solved the core conflict of the series but didn't due to pseudo-aphaty.

[Yanagi]

I felt like Zaheer was the best villain of LoK... though really, the competition isn't exactly stiff. Yeah, he becomes extremely good at airbending very quickly, but he had studied the Air Nomad culture extensively and was a skilled martial artist before getting bending - dangerous enough for the White Lotus to lock him up as securely as his bending allies. And when you look closely, his airbending style does differ from that of traditionally-trained airbenders. Plus as Marillion said, Tenzin more or less has his number. He's got a more or less coherent ideology that touches on Korra's own frustration with authority figures. He's solid, if not spectacular. Better than Ozai or Zhao, for sure.

Compare him to Amon, who is all flash and no substance and the revelation that he's just a bloodbender with daddy issues renders him an utter joke. And whose successes mostly boil down to everyone conveniently failing to do anything about his Cunning Plans. And Unalaq... if he had a moustache, he would twirl it relentlessly and he doesn't keep a consistent motivation for more than five minutes.

Kuvira is the only other villain who approaches some kind of quality, even if she's not quite as good as Zaheer.

LoK's writers came up with some very ambitious scenarios--sociological storytelling; plus a flawed protagonist who sacrifices a great deal for each win; plus an arc villain with a perspective that must be articulated and their defeat is not just physical--but then compressed each arc into a single season and tried for two seasons to have slow-reveal on who the antagonists were. They try to compress materials that could be spaced out over multiple AtLA-sized seasons and the result was...less of a success.

Villains for season three and four worked better because the writers acclimated to the time pressure. Zaheer and Kuvira are immediately identified as antagonists and a great deal of what they want is said upfront. This left more of the run-time to make them feel detailed, reveal the final forms of the plan, and give them screen time to just be people that audience engages with. Zaheer has a tight group he interacts with that makes him more relatable. Kuvira is a character isolated by her own accumulation of power, so we see less of her.

Amon...and Tarrlok and the Equalists...were a lot of story to tell in so little time, while also establishing the protagonist, the secondary characters, and the settings. Which is a shame, since I think the premise--two damaged people hiding their personal agendas inside institutions that abuse power, hijacking legitimate concerns making systemic problems worse--is really interesting, the sort of thing you could stretch over a full series. But it's a story that needs the kind of length and scope that Avatar had, and would have benefited from a deuteragonist or two.

<removes multiple paragraphs of rewrites because I like this flawed show enough to think too much about this.

Unalaq...could have been interesting if they committed to giving him a perspective, such as making him more explicitly a millenarian reactionary--trying to take the world back to Turtle-Dragon days because he can't stand the accelerating societal change--and less of a "Mostly I'm just nasty but also here's some reasons on a Post-It."

They also missed out on how cool it would be to have an four-element-bender improvising from Water techniques only, fighting the Avatar...but <removes multiple paragraphs of rewrites because I like even this trash baby of a season.>

[druid91]

One of the things that bothers me very much about Legend of Korra is that they never show us how the Fire Nation has changed since the first series. Now, the plot has it that things are pretty settled in the FN and there isn't much need for the Avatar to do anything of substance there, but there were four seasons to play with and they could easily have squeezed an episode into showing the FN in its modern state, even while focusing on something else in terms of the actual plot (maybe there would be a summit held there to discuss one of the season-defining problems, or maybe Team Avatar just stops over shortly on their way to go somewhere else). Instead, we see one isolated (and fairly traditional-looking) temple on one island and get Izumi's opinion on one matter of geopolitics. I liked that scene, and it's nice to see a character in that series with a sensible outlook on things for a change, but we don't get A) her opinion or ideas about anything else, or B), insight into how one of the foremost powers in the setting has changed. We've seen so much of them in ATLA, of how their society is developed with this layer of modernity over older elements, of how their people are and are not affected by the culture the leadership has worked to instill. How have Fire Nation citizens handled their abrupt demilitarization*? How has their society, which was already fairly industrialized, changed technologically? Are they prosperous, having thrown the resources they sunk into war into economic development and social programs, or have they languished from a generation of high unemployment as the military was disbanded and from a lack of resources from the former colonies? How has the royal family, an institution deeply affiliated with bender supremacy, interacted with the anti-bending sentiment in the first season of the show? Has any of that sentiment made its way to the Fire Nation? (It might well not have, if the monarchy has spent a generation administrating competently using power rather than violence, but it would be nice to see it either way.) The show spent two entire seasons examining how the Earth Kingdom has adapted (or largely, failed to adapt) to technological and cultural change since the first series, and didn't spend one episode on its counterpart.

*I understand that there were comics about that, but those were in the immediate aftermath of the war, so a generation has passed since then, and that's also supplementary material, and showing things in the core work is generally superior to doing so in supplements; reliance on tie-ins for world-building was one of the weaknesses of the Star Wars sequels.

The other big issue with the setting was the way in which they reinterpreted the Spirit World (meta)physically and then failed to reinterpret it culturally. The Spirit World in ATLA was a reflection of the physical world, the yin to its yang and a natural counterpart. While they were separate for the most part, things in one affected the other, and it all seems like this is the natural order to things. In LoK, the Spirit World is revealed to be separate only by intentional design, and the spirits that seemed like natural outgrowths or incarnations of physical things are reinterpreted as independently existing beings, almost more like aliens, that are so inimical to human life that all of human civilization as we know it has only been possible due to the spirits' active exclusion from one half of the cosmos.
And yet, no one reacts to this. People still treat spirits with awe and reverence (except when they're being portrayed by the show as grouchy, short-sighted workaday sorts). Korra, after learning that A), everything she has ever known has been possible only because the Spirit Portals were closed because B), spirits are incredibly dangerous to human life and only a handful of people in the setting can address that danger, leaving everyone else defenseless against monsters that appear whenever people have negative emotions, chooses to keep them open, and people (and the writers) treat this as an unalloyed good, because spirits are good (again, unless the people are whiny, entitled Republic City citizens who need to cut the Avatar some slack). This is like a Christian dying to find his heart being weighed by Thoth against the Feather of Ma'at and saying nothing about it. It's baffling to have a character (or every character) confronted with evidence that shatters their understanding of the universe and then largely not react to it. If the point of the show was that people are too hidebound to change their viewpoints even when presented with firm evidence, that's one thing, but first, that's rather more cynical than even this series, which is more cynical than its predecessor, tends to be in other respects, and second, the show's writing doesn't seem to be arguing that; it's only something we can infer from what we see.

Another, more minor, problem I had was that modernization in the show was often tied in with Westernization in a setting where the West in a cultural sense does not exist and has never existed. Democratic institutions spring up overnight with no precursors. (The Republics switched from a blue-ribbon panel of appointed leaders to an elected president off-screen, between seasons, in a setting where no one has ever elected anything.) Fashions change to forms more familiar to us. Language and terminology doesn't seem like it's grown from previous incarnations in the setting, but simply been transplanted from the equivalent period in our history.

That said, I don't think the setting design was all bad. Seeing the decentralization in the Earth Kingdom result in a crisis of leadership that addresses the nature of political power was good. Seeing the interplay between tradition and modernity, to the point where a religious traditionalist is offended enough by modern lifestyles to act to seize power in order to counteract prevalent cultural change (the Book 2 conflict before all that Vaatu stuff stole the show), is a reflection of times past and present.

The last main setting gripe I have is one of scale. The Southern Water Tribe was depicted in ATLA as depleted by intentional genocide to the size of a small village, and the Northern Water Tribe was merely one city of moderate size, probably lesser in population than Omashu by itself. In LoK, the Southern Water Tribe has a massive, sprawling city, orders of magnitude larger than either Water population before. We know that some members of the North moved south to help rebuild, but since there was no cause for a mass exodus from the North, we can presume that this was probably a small minority of their population, and the North seems to have the level of available manpower and technological development to be on par with the South, so they're likely of at least roughly equivalent size, and thus also significantly more populous than they were in ATLA. It seems unlikely that this was due to immigration from other regions, as we never see any of the ethnic conflict that would result from that level of immigration (or, indeed, significant numbers of Earth or Fire immigrants), so we are left with the notion that the Water Tribes have experienced at least a 1000% growth rate per generation. This conflicts with the families we see in the show, which generally have somewhere between one and three children, and no one, at least to my recollection, mentions that the Water Tribes are abnormal in this aspect. The biggest family we see on the show is from Ba Sing Se, and the second is Tenzin's family (which is to be expected, since he's being held personally responsible for the task of repopulating an entire ethnic group; one wonders how he sold that notion to Pemma).

I'll edit these in later. I've been writing practically a blog post about just the setting, and my gripes with the show are much more about the writing.

Well. Pemma was an air acolyte, and approached him rather than the other way around.

So presumably she was already interested in the idea.

[VoxRationis]

Unalaq...could have been interesting if they committed to giving him a perspective, such as making him more explicitly a millenarian reactionary--trying to take the world back to Turtle-Dragon days because he can't stand the accelerating societal change--and less of a "Mostly I'm just nasty but also here's some reasons on a Post-It."[/i]
I think that's why season 2 seems to be considered egregious in the two series. For all its spirits, magic, and fantasy, the Avatar universe is ultimately one of humans with human motivations and human flaws, operating in human societies and with human philosophies. The first series is almost wholly about thwarting imperialism; in LoK, we also see proletarian revolts (Amon), anarchist terrorists (Zaheer), and fascists (Kuvira). Unalaaq is set up the same way; his motives in the beginning of his season fit neatly into traditionalism and a sort of religious devotion. But then it turns out that he's not really a reactionary; he's working for a giant spirit of darkness for... no particular reason in order to bring about... 10,000 years of darkness. He's pretty explicit about that, even describing himself as a "Dark Avatar." Unalaaq, by the end, doesn't see himself as a hero or a good person standing against the forces of wickedness; he's just a cackling movie stereotype. This untethers him from his human motivations and pretty much all the political setup that defined the first half of the season and turns him into an out-of-context sort of villain from a wholly different (and rather more generic) kind of fantasy, and that's really not satisfying.

[Rater202]

Yeah Bolin isn't broken, don't fix him. Sometimes a flat character doesn't need any development, they are just great the way they are and thats fine, sometimes a little even ground is welcome after climbing the mountains of character development whether its for up or down. that and flat characters are less a person that changes and more someone that changes others around them, like a rock bending anything that hits it. it all fits the fact that he is an earthbender: he is unchanging, but he is overall a good guy so its not like he needs to.

@ Rater: yeah I didn't say anything before, but I'm simply not interested in playing a bender. don't get me wrong I love the Avatar setting, but I consider the metaphysics and stories in it pretty much solved and done. I can't really think of anything substantial enough I'd commit to a roleplay for, and there is simply not enough there for me to be interested, and I'd much rather go for a monster/superhero game because there are some character concepts that are much more interesting to me than playing a manipulator of classical elements.

Honestly, at this point, I'm willing to be flexible.

[dancrilis]

Honestly, at this point, I'm willing to be flexible.

I have been thinking about it for the day - and happy to give it a go, will post a character concept and see what you think).

[Yanagi]

I think that's why season 2 seems to be considered egregious in the two series. For all its spirits, magic, and fantasy, the Avatar universe is ultimately one of humans with human motivations and human flaws, operating in human societies and with human philosophies. The first series is almost wholly about thwarting imperialism; in LoK, we also see proletarian revolts (Amon), anarchist terrorists (Zaheer), and fascists (Kuvira). Unalaaq is set up the same way; his motives in the beginning of his season fit neatly into traditionalism and a sort of religious devotion. But then it turns out that he's not really a reactionary; he's working for a giant spirit of darkness for... no particular reason in order to bring about... 10,000 years of darkness. He's pretty explicit about that, even describing himself as a "Dark Avatar." Unalaaq, by the end, doesn't see himself as a hero or a good person standing against the forces of wickedness; he's just a cackling movie stereotype. This untethers him from his human motivations and pretty much all the political setup that defined the first half of the season and turns him into an out-of-context sort of villain from a wholly different (and rather more generic) kind of fantasy, and that's really not satisfying.

I'd argue season one has many themes and doesn't resolve them well. It's not really one thing: it tries to address abuse of state power, class alienation, vigilante violence, hate crimes, an attempted pogrom? (was that S1?), and a charlatan running a cult all in one go. The premises are good, even the worldbuilding's decent...it's just too much, too complicated, for that little time. I think you could take the exact same material and write a really good multiseason arc.

I agree season two's the weakest, but there was a good armature. Unalaq worked well as a theocrat. His end goal being "become an Avatar so I use all that power to spank the world until it goes back to how it was" works well with that starting point, particularly since the Avatar he's fighting is his nontraditional, citified, abrupt niece who's trying to be more than she was trained to be.

It also works because it makes Unalaaq Wan's ultimate enemy: the force that wants not to make things just and good, but to put everyone back in fixed role and unable to change. Wan's build up to becoming Avatar is moral expansion: resisting the hierarchy of his city even though he knows nothing else, befriending spirits even though they're hostile, healing animals, saving people in a different city...trying to save everyone.

[Lord Raziere]

Honestly, at this point, I'm willing to be flexible.

None of my character concepts would fit Avatars setting, not even close. like its a setting thats too good in my eyes, I do not want to ruin it by introducing something completely nonsensical to what it is, and its simply too limited for what I want. Sorry Rater, but I'm simply not interested because there is simply nothing I can do with it that hasn't already been done.

like the Naruto and Dragon Ball roleplays, they work for me, because there is so much left open-ended about them that I can fill in and make an entirely different story with them because of all the stuff left behind in their long runs just used once then never explored again just there waiting to be repurposed to make something new and different. Avatar is great because its tightly written: every part of it is used efficiently and the world is focused in a way that makes the stories consistent, human and sympathetic and thus work with the themes its trying to tell, and anything I'd try to do with it would only retell that, thats retreading the same ground, so why would I want to do that? the Avatar world is great for telling a tightly written limited story, but its not so great for a roleplay in my eyes, because those thrive on having unfulfilled mysteries and plots that aren't finished, with dangling threads and themes left unexplored,, but Aang explores its themes really well.....then Korra while maybe not as good, still explores everything it left untouched complete with a contrasting protagonist that I would usually make to explore them with. Korra is already all the stuff I'd try to look at and do myself and its already done.

Sure, in hindsight I would do some changes: make the Korrasami romance bigger and more upfront, make Zahir and Amon the two most prominent baddies for all the seasons not just one and they'd probably be partners because their equalist and anarchist philosophies are compatible with a sophisticated "always on edge" relationship to keep it realistic, while Kuvira and Tarrlok/Unalaq being there but only seasonal antagonists since their motivations are more tied to politics and their nations, change the confrontation of Vaatu to be the final fight and maybe make ZAHIR to be the one becoming the Dark Avatar in his quest for anarchy, but the Airbenders coming back earlier to change things up, to make the return of them as more of a mystery to investigate rather than a consequence, No Meelo, Varrick I'm not sure on he is weird but somewhere between being a greedy semi-antagonist and comic relief I'm sure something about him could be executed better....

...but nothing I'd consider good for a roleplay. it'd all be great changes for some fan fic, but nope.

[t209]

Watched The Great Divide.

- So the village didn't decided to check up on their messenger, who would have bail him out once things get cleared up?
- And what happened to the crystal ball?
- And I know it's one of the least liked episodes, but I can't stop thinking.

[Anonymouswizard]

In Book 2 now. They're really trying to give sympathy to Zuko. It's a common story thread, but it's fine. I wonder if they'll do the sappy solution: Zuko joins Aang and the gang, helps the Avatar defeat the Fire Nation, and become the new Fire Lord. He doesn't have to become the new Fire Lord but otherwise helps to defeat his father and get his revenge or at least his Honor back despite not being the way he originally intended.

Don't worry, Zuko's arc is done a lot better than it might appear at this stage. Zuko's entire arc is about what honour and family is, and as such doesn't go exactly where it seems to at first. I'm not saying Aang doesn't end up dating the Fire Lord, just that it's not straightforward. Warning white text is spoilery.

[Sivarias]

Iroh rant ahead.



Iroh's entire story is about his conflict with his family. He lost his son, and that tragedy hurt him deeply and gave him a new appreciation for family. This is why you see him go into voluntary exile with Zuko. Over the course of book 1 and 2 you can see him struggling to heal Zuko's wounds, but if you listen to how he talks about his brother and his father, you can tell he disapproves, but sticks with them because of family loyalty and honor.

In book three, you see a man who realizes that honoring your family is a noble goal, but not all family members deserve to be honored. He then takes responsibility for his family, and like Travis Cotes and Ole Yeller, sees it as his responsibility to put Oazi down.

Book 1 and 2 establish values and the conflict between them. Book 3 shows Iroh taking action on the values that won.




And honestly, that makes Iroh more amazing in my eyes. It's serious character development.

[VoxRationis]

To the OP's original point:


Curious. Is it stereotypical for Fire to be the bad guys? Could this show have worked if it was Avatar The Last Fire Bender and say Earth Nation were the bad guys? I could be overthinking this as an adult about a children's program. This does not take away anything from the show. With bias in my own gameworld as DM there are good guy undead and kobolds and there's a full orc Lawful Good cleric PC, so I like flipping the stereotype. Did Fire have to be the bad guy for the story to make sense?

It is a bit stereotypical to have Fire be the antagonists, and I think that might be intentional; the show is ultimately for children, and the first episodes show that the most. Having the opponents be scary fire-hurling masked soldiers in towering battleships connects quickly on an emotional level and helps sell the show initially, and then the writers can introduce the nuance that makes the show great. It's not difficult to contemplate ways in which the primary antagonists would be from the other nations (and I'll go into that momentarily), but it would be perhaps more difficult to display the conflict in a way which would resonate with children.

Making the Earth Kingdom the aggressor and Fire the victim wouldn't take much rewriting at all. After all, the Earth Kingdom is a state and therefore can mobilize for war readily, and we see that they've been the primary threat to balance in past generations. You'd basically need to swap the royal families of each state (though giving the defending nation cutthroat royal politics at the top levels while still being attacked would be a good way of keeping the nuance, so the Zuko-Azula feud might be good to keep). Maybe the Fire Nation colonized abandoned coastal areas a couple generations before the start of the conflict, and now an irredentist Earth King has attacked them, or maybe the Fire Nation always had a presence in the west, but the Earth Kings developed a philosophy that the whole continent was theirs, driving them to attack the Air Temples (which seem all to be on the main continent) and start conquering the outlying Fire Nation settlements. The ineffectual Fire Lord remains aloof to the plight of his subjects, safe on the core island from immediate harm and more concerned with royal politics. The superior Fire Nation navy can keep the heartland safe, but struggles to protect the continental settlements, both because of failures of leadership and because of their difficulty projecting power onto the land. (With a little more rewriting, you could emphasize that fire, while flashy, is in truth probably the weakest of the four elements when it comes to combat and have that influence the world-building. Firebenders don't have strong defensive techniques (against the other elements), and the other elements can defend against theirs pretty easily; moreover, earth and water both can shape the battlefield, which fire cannot. This puts firebenders at a pretty sizable disadvantage. One could see their culture focusing more on use of fire for utilitarian purposes like kilns and ovens and forges.)

Writing water or air to be the antagonists would require much more rewriting to make plausible. As it stands, neither culture has the capability to organize as an offensive force or the real desire to conquer. That said, you could rewrite the Air Nomads to be a conquering force pretty plausibly. Give them a Genghis sort of unifier who masses them into a horde, sweeping through the Earth Kingdom, outmaneuvering larger Earth Kingdom armies and pillaging the land, sometimes smothering entire cities that resist them. As the show progresses and we start to see more of the Air Nomads' perspective, we see how they've been historically relegated to mountain peaks and high steppes, starving and freezing while within sight of the fertile lowlands. By the end, the Avatar sets up the Air Temples (because seriously, there's no way those were built by airbenders) and introduces the principles of monasticism which would eventually come to define airbending as a culture.

[t209]

To the OP's original point:



It is a bit stereotypical to have Fire be the antagonists, and I think that might be intentional; the show is ultimately for children, and the first episodes show that the most. Having the opponents be scary fire-hurling masked soldiers in towering battleships connects quickly on an emotional level and helps sell the show initially, and then the writers can introduce the nuance that makes the show great. It's not difficult to contemplate ways in which the primary antagonists would be from the other nations (and I'll go into that momentarily), but it would be perhaps more difficult to display the conflict in a way which would resonate with children.

Making the Earth Kingdom the aggressor and Fire the victim wouldn't take much rewriting at all. After all, the Earth Kingdom is a state and therefore can mobilize for war readily, and we see that they've been the primary threat to balance in past generations. You'd basically need to swap the royal families of each state (though giving the defending nation cutthroat royal politics at the top levels while still being attacked would be a good way of keeping the nuance, so the Zuko-Azula feud might be good to keep). Maybe the Fire Nation colonized abandoned coastal areas a couple generations before the start of the conflict, and now an irredentist Earth King has attacked them, or maybe the Fire Nation always had a presence in the west, but the Earth Kings developed a philosophy that the whole continent was theirs, driving them to attack the Air Temples (which seem all to be on the main continent) and start conquering the outlying Fire Nation settlements. The ineffectual Fire Lord remains aloof to the plight of his subjects, safe on the core island from immediate harm and more concerned with royal politics. The superior Fire Nation navy can keep the heartland safe, but struggles to protect the continental settlements, both because of failures of leadership and because of their difficulty projecting power onto the land. (With a little more rewriting, you could emphasize that fire, while flashy, is in truth probably the weakest of the four elements when it comes to combat and have that influence the world-building. Firebenders don't have strong defensive techniques (against the other elements), and the other elements can defend against theirs pretty easily; moreover, earth and water both can shape the battlefield, which fire cannot. This puts firebenders at a pretty sizable disadvantage. One could see their culture focusing more on use of fire for utilitarian purposes like kilns and ovens and forges.)

Writing water or air to be the antagonists would require much more rewriting to make plausible. As it stands, neither culture has the capability to organize as an offensive force or the real desire to conquer. That said, you could rewrite the Air Nomads to be a conquering force pretty plausibly. Give them a Genghis sort of unifier who masses them into a horde, sweeping through the Earth Kingdom, outmaneuvering larger Earth Kingdom armies and pillaging the land, sometimes smothering entire cities that resist them. As the show progresses and we start to see more of the Air Nomads' perspective, we see how they've been historically relegated to mountain peaks and high steppes, starving and freezing while within sight of the fertile lowlands. By the end, the Avatar sets up the Air Temples (because seriously, there's no way those were built by airbenders) and introduces the principles of monasticism which would eventually come to define airbending as a culture.
Ironically,
This was the entire subtext of Chin the Conqueror.

[VoxRationis]

Ironically,
This was the entire subtext of Chin the Conqueror.

What was? I'm not sure what concept you're referring to with "this."

[t209]

What was? I'm not sure what concept you're referring to with "this."
I meanChin the Conqueror tried to claim entire Earth continent and only stopped at Kyoshi’s island, albeit mostly because he refuse to run away when the ground fell under him.
He is one of example of Earth Kingdom as villainous role.

[uncool]

Iroh rant ahead.



Iroh's entire story is about his conflict with his family. He lost his son, and that tragedy hurt him deeply and gave him a new appreciation for family. This is why you see him go into voluntary exile with Zuko. Over the course of book 1 and 2 you can see him struggling to heal Zuko's wounds, but if you listen to how he talks about his brother and his father, you can tell he disapproves, but sticks with them because of family loyalty and honor.

In book three, you see a man who realizes that honoring your family is a noble goal, but not all family members deserve to be honored. He then takes responsibility for his family, and like Travis Cotes and Ole Yeller, sees it as his responsibility to put Oazi down.

Book 1 and 2 establish values and the conflict between them. Book 3 shows Iroh taking action on the values that won.




And honestly, that makes Iroh more amazing in my eyes. It's serious character development.

I'm not sure I agree that that's character development in the sense of Iroh changing; I think a lot of that comes from our viewpoint character of Zuko changing, and so seeing Iroh differently.

Take Iroh's first conversation about Azula: "She's crazy and she needs to go down", as opposed to Zuko's "I know what you're going to say. She's my sister and I need to try to get along with her."

Or his first fight with Azula: redirects her lightning and kicks her so hard she goes from the middle of the ship straight over the edge.

I think the change you notice comes more than anything from the fact that he knew Zuko wasn't ready to face Ozai or Azula - either on a physical or mental level.

[JadedDM]

Apparently, Legend of Korra is coming to Netflix (https://twitter.com/NXOnNetflix/status/1285605463271206912) next month.

[Pex]

Apparently, Legend of Korra is coming to Netflix (https://twitter.com/NXOnNetflix/status/1285605463271206912) next month.

Read that. I was pondering seeing it as people have been giving negative reviews about it. I have to finish Avatar first anyway. I'll probably give Korra a chance for an episode or two, make up my own mind.

I'm up to where Aang the gang are in the Earth Kingdom and reunited with lost Aba. They're showing Earth benders as bad guys. It's the common trope of the King's Vizier, but it's fine. I'm not the target audience, yet I like how the show has become a bit more serious in nature. Sokka is getting respect even if still the butt monkey sometimes, and they're making me care about Zuko which is good.

I always did like watching Mako when he appeared in a movie or tv show.

[hungrycrow]

Read that. I was pondering seeing it as people have been giving negative reviews about it. I have to finish Avatar first anyway. I'll probably give Korra a chance for an episode or two, make up my own mind.

If you like AtLA and were able to tolerate the low points of that, you'll probably like LoK too. There wasn't anything as lame as the Great Divide in Korra.
Really the worst thing about that show was that there were so many great ideas that never got executed to their full potential.

[Peelee]

If you like AtLA and were able to tolerate the low points of that, you'll probably like LoK too. There wasn't anything as lame as the Great Divide in Korra.
Really the worst thing about that show was that there were so many great ideas that never got executed to their full potential.

I still don't agree with the hate on the Great Divide.

[Anteros]

If you like AtLA and were able to tolerate the low points of that, you'll probably like LoK too. There wasn't anything as lame as the Great Divide in Korra.
Really the worst thing about that show was that there were so many great ideas that never got executed to their full potential.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that the Great Divide is better than anything in LoK after season 1.

[Rynjin]

I still don't agree with the hate on the Great Divide.

Diff'rent strokes and all, but the Great Divide is an episode so vapid and pointless even the creators don't like it. It might be vaguely entertaining in its own right, but it is the singular episode of the series that could be completely cut with no consequences on the narrative or individual character arcs.

[Anteros]

Diff'rent strokes and all, but the Great Divide is an episode so vapid and pointless even the creators don't like it. It might be vaguely entertaining in its own right, but it is the singular episode of the series that could be completely cut with no consequences on the narrative or individual character arcs.

It's no worse to me than a lot of the other "filler" episodes like Waterbending scroll, Ember Island players, avatar day, and I'm sure a lot of other episodes that were fun but don't do much to grow the characters or advance the plot.

It also shows that Aang is willing to lie to people for their own good, which I thought was a good bit of character development.

[hungrycrow]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that the Great Divide is better than anything in LoK after season 1.

Well this is objectively wrong. Season 2 has Varrick in it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well this is objectively wrong. Season 2 has Varrick in it.

I honestly didn't like Varrick in Season 2, although his appearances in Season 3 and 4 were amazing.

I honestly think that Season 4 is my favourite because I just love what they did with Bolin (who's character hasn't reset since Season 3) and Varrick, along with Korra finally beginning to act like the Avatar. It also cemented Mako as my last favourite of the main characters, because urgh.

[Morty]

I cannot stand Varrick in any season, personally. He's always annoying and in Season 2 he's also part of the political plot no one wanted or asked for. In Season 3 his role is minor, but that just means he only appears for the sake of "wacky" humor and nothing else. In Season 4 he actually suffers some consequences for his actions, Zhu Li tells him off and Asami twists his arm, plus his section in the slide show is hilarious. So he's probably at his best there, but I would still rather he never appeared at all.

[JadedDM]

Read that. I was pondering seeing it as people have been giving negative reviews about it. I have to finish Avatar first anyway. I'll probably give Korra a chance for an episode or two, make up my own mind.

Based on what I remember from your comments in the Dark Matter threads, I can pretty much guarantee you will hate Legend of Korra, passionately.

[Ramza00]

Apparently, Legend of Korra is coming to Netflix (https://twitter.com/NXOnNetflix/status/1285605463271206912) next month.

“The Legend of Korra” is coming to Netflix on August 14 and all of y'all gotta deal with it!

[Sivarias]

Ick. Legend of Korra.

[Pex]

Based on what I remember from your comments in the Dark Matter threads, I can pretty much guarantee you will hate Legend of Korra, passionately.

In what way? Is there a character like Three whom I'll like but everyone in the show beats him up?

Speaking of, the actor Anthony Lemke is well known on Canadian television. A few years before Dark Matter he was in the first and last season of The Listener, a Canadian show about a paramedic who can read thoughts to help capture criminals. I have been able to watch a number of episodes. It's a good show in its own right, but it was cool to see him again especially in a role where he gets respect.

[druid91]

I've never understood the dislike for Korra. Honestly, I actually like it more than the original, though it's a close contest.

[Peelee]

I've never understood the dislike for Korra. Honestly, I actually like it more than the original, though it's a close contest.

I'm nearly through season 3, I think. I'm still more or less enjoying it, but I can see the reasoning for those who didn't like it.

The sudden technological shift was a massive worldchanger, and they explored it some in season 1, but more or less dropped it after; S2 went into the intro to movies a bit, but even that wasn't very well developed, and most of it was to give Bolin his own spotlight (which I'm all for, Team Bolin 100%). I really loved TLA's approach of showing how bending civilizations used their powers to emulate or replace facets of modern life, and LOK largely moves away from that. They also run full-bore into rare and special powers no longer being as rare and special as they once were - metalbending, for example, turns out to be something that what, 10% of earthbenders can do? Combustion bending is back, despite that being the weakest part of TLA IMO, and now we have lavabenders going on, which is earthbending because it's rocks but could also conceivably be waterbending because it's a fluid or fire bending (that one is much more of a stretch, I'll admit, but firebenders got lightning so why not).

And then, on top of that, from what I hear they only got each season pre-approved one by one so they couldn't rely on having a set number of episodes to tell an overarching and coherent story so they had to introduce an entirely new plotline for each season more or less starting the villain from scratch and trying to figure out new character arcs for your already-arced-characters to develop. Issues like that are why sequels based off properties that were intended to be standalones are famous for having a high rate of poorer quality.

[uncool]

Those are some reasons, but I think they're symptoms of deeper problems - problems that appear on a thematic level.

One of the great things the original show did was attempt to show a deep connection between movement, action, instinct, thought, and philosophy. Iroh explained this at the start of season 2, but what he said was clearly deeply woven into how the writers wrote the entire world. Aang could only learn a new style by learning - and adapting - to a completely new philosophy; Zuko lost his bending - and then regained it - on the basis of a change of thought pattern.

Those connections were much weaker in Korra. The connection between the physical and mental sides was largely broken by the choice to mix all the styles with MMA. In the original series, if you removed the elements, I think the bending style would still generally be clear; in the new one, I doubt you could consistently identify a style without seeing the elements.

I think the connection between the philosophy and the rest was also broken; the most egregious example to me was Korra's airbending at the end of season 1. She suddenly airbends because she's desperate - not because she learned to avoid and misdirect rather than face head-on, the way an airbender would. And she promptly continues to demonstrate this with a direct air-punch and a kick that screams earthbender. She can airbend - not because she suddenly understand it, but because the universe granted it to her.

The "extreme" bending styles suffer in this way, too. Lightningbending is an extension of firebending - based on the strength of passion - tempered by cold calculation. Does that describe Mako to you? Metalbending is an extension of earthbending - based on the solidity of the group - mixed with the concept of leadership - "I (the impurities) go, the rest follow". Which I agree works for Kuvira, but not so well with nearly any of the other metalbenders we see. Bloodbending is an extension of waterbending - based on the fluidity of motion - that says that everything can be redirected. This is the one where the connection remains strongest - Yakone, Tarrlok, and Amon all work by subverting systems of power (the gangs, politics, and populism) - but personally, I didn't find the connection that convincing for Yakone and Tarrlok. Korra season 3 introduces a new "extreme" bending style: lavabending. What philosophy underlies the new style? What do Ghazan and Bolin hvae in common?

And this doesn't get started on the **** kaiju battle. Which I'd have to watch again to really analyze.

[Lethologica]

The quality of Legend of Korra is highly contested ground, which means that recommendations from others either way are even more suspect than usual.

For what it's worth, the fading connection between bending and philosophy is clearly intentional and ties directly to the through-line of the show: what does it mean to be the Avatar, master of the elements and bringing balance to the world, in a world no longer organized around the philosophy of bending, which is indifferent if not hostile to the whole idea of an Avatar? That it's intentional doesn't necessarily make it a good choice, and it certainly isn't one which appeals to fans of the original show's philosophical bent, but it's not like they just forgot to add the philosophy.

The issue, as I see it, is that having dispensed with bending philosophy as an organizing principle, the writers never managed to decide what the new organizing principle of the show was going to be. They never answered the question. This is partly attributable to having to write seasonal plots one after another instead of a single overarching plot because of the show's troubled production. But regardless of the reason, Legend of Korra lacks a clear vision, and it shows up in every part of the story - characterization, pacing, worldbuilding, you name it.

(Also, I personally dislike a lot of the moment-to-moment dialogue and VA work, which is the proximate reason why I keep dropping the show a few episodes after trying to get back into it.)

[Razade]

The most fair thing that can be said about Legend of Korra is that it has a lot of cool concepts and it progresses the world building of the Avatar world to an early Industrial age which introduces some dynamics to the whole Mortal World/Spirit World overlap.

Korra is a departure from Aang in that she's headstrong and loud to cover a lot of deep, deep insecurities as she tries to live in Aang's shadow. The dude made a country and everyone (most everyone) adored him. It's a big shadow. It would have been really really good to have invested in that side of her, and they do somewhat but they never resolve it so she just remains angsty and through much of Season 3 is a sadsack and much of Season 4 happens because she's paralyzed by the same indecision she was in Seasons 1 and 2.

The supporting cast ranges from heartwarming (Aang's son and a few of his kids) to insanely annoying (Some of Aang's kids and grand kids and a whole bunch of the supporting cast).

The biggest flaw of Korra however is the direct, uninterrupted Executive Meddling and frankly sexist and homophobic decisions by Nickelodeon and that is neither hyperbole or guess work. The creators have been very very open about the process of making Korra in the years since it aired and how Nickelodeon handled the series. A few of the most blatant and easily google-able things.

- Korra's first season was cut to the length it is because Nickelodeon because, stated by Nickelodeon, they were unsure if children would be able to handle a female lead and when they asked for the creators to turn it into a male lead, and were told no, they retaliated in kind.

- Nickelodeon purposefully put it in poor time slots and did little to advertise leading up to the debut. We can't guess motive on this.

- Based on the other two things, they continued to keep Korra's seasons short citing poor view numbers. Such that Season 4 was entirely streamed on their terrible, terrible website.

- Asami was intended to be a villain but the creators liked her enough to keep her around. Nickelodeon mandated that (because Korra was a girl) she needed to have a love interest. The writers and creators from Season 2 intended it to be Asami. They feared that Nickelodeon would veto it hard. They were right, because when they did go asking, Nickelodeon told them they could only hold hands and they managed to wiggle out what we see in the actual finale.

[Anonymouswizard]

Korra also has some weird worldbuilding elements, including retconning of series lore (kind of) and some weird details that don't make sense.

As an example, in one scene we see Lightning benders zapping devices to generate electricity. All well and good, until you take a step back and think that you'd likely do just as well for less by building an actual generator with a turbine and using firebenders to just heat water and drive the turbine that way. Or using waterbenders to drive the turbine, but there's no need to get highly skilled workers in just to generate your electricity.

Then there's all the issues with pacing caused by behind the scenes executive disbelief, I'm fairly certain that the reason for Books 3 and 4 being better recieved is because they weren't designed as 20 episode seasons and cut down.

Then there's Book 2. This is either the worst season with a shockingly good two parter about halfway through, or a decent season with a two parter based around retconning lore. Basically some ideas are introduced but not properly explained as to how they fit in (and you can make them fit, but for some you need to extrapolate in a specific way).

[Rater202]

On that spoilerFirebenders were showing firebending into boilers in the classic series, in place of using coal, to power war machines.

It's been seventy years, Lightning Bending, firebending with a calm mind, is probably a lot easier if the Dancing Dragon Method, bending fire with positive emotions and feelings of light, as supplanted Sozins hate-based fire bending as the dominant style.

Either way, innovating the process of suing firebending as a source of industrial power was bound to happen.

Now consider that, unlike other benders who simply use their chi to manipulate an element, firebenders use their chi to generate an element.

Assuming that the existence of the chakras means that Chi works like in the general sense using in Taoism and Chinese Buddhism, that it's the cosmic energy that comes down from space and flows down the mountains into the world and nourishes everything else but can also be cultivated within a person then Chi is a renewable recourse...

But converting someone's chi directly into electricity and putting it straight into the powerlines would be much more efficient than using it as fire. Less of it would be lost as waste heat and there's be fewer transformations of the energy involved.

It's honestly a weird intersection of mystisicms and science, where you're applying thermodynamics to chi.

As for Retcons, the only things I can think of when they say that isLionturltes as the Soruce of Bending but... It doesn't contradict anything.

when the Liontutrle shows up an explains bending, it was that "We" used to bend the energy within "ourselves." The Lionturtles was, presumably, speaking directly about it's own kind rather than bneders in general.

In the pre-avatar days, the Liontutrles would Energybend some bending into someone when they needed it and then take it back...

But then when they left there were no Benders other tan the current host of the Avatar Spirit...

But the capacity of Bending was still in some people, so they were able to learn from naturally occurring benders.

The Lion Turtle never said that humans all used to be Energybenders, we just assumed that's what it meant.

So, it's not a retcon, it's just the fandom's assumption being debunked.

[Anonymouswizard]

On the retconning.
People normally have three areas of complaint: changing the origin of Bending, changing the nature of the Avatar State, and removing the Blue and Orange morality of the spirits.

On the first, the lion turtles are the origin of bending ability, but the original series gives us the origin of bending styles in its dialogue. This is shown by how all Wan and the soldiers can really do when giving firebending is to conjure and throw flames, it's not until Wan starts basing his movements on the flight of dragons that we get anything like the firebending seen in the rest of the show. Even when others have firebending for years they're never shown to most beyond the 'throwing fire' stage, but the proto-Air Nomads do seem to have progressed their bending slightly further due to their more spiritual nature.

On the second, both Wan and Series 3 Korra are shown to get a relatively minor boost from the Avatar State, at least compared to Aang. Sure the origin might not be Raava, but the power comes from exactly where people said it did, and very few people know about Raava and Vaatu at the beginning of the series because it's been millennia. We have what, Unalaq and maybe Tenzin among the main cast and for all we know that's it, Raava and Vaatu are basically a footnote in their religions.

On under third, it has to do with how Spirits in the story aren't shown as being that different to humans, but they're do still seem to have different priorities. Which I think is a plus to the story. Also with how Raava is portrayed as 'good' and Vaatu as 'evil', but think about it. If Vaatu wins humanity is gone by the next conflict, but if Raava wins humanity gets to live another 'ten thousand years'. It's not that Raava is good, it's that Vaatu is significantly worse, and Raava gets flattered by people in the know because you hope the good cosmic tapeworm will decide to leave you alone.

[Lord Raziere]

I always thought that the Avatar State's power depended on your spirituality. your tapping into the innermost power of the Avatar, so it makes that when Aang does its something all powerful and incredibly potent because he is an incredibly spiritual person- in fact there was a whole episode about Aang's unwillingness to let go of his attachment to Katara holding his Avatar state back.

Korra in contrast, is incredibly connected to her attachments and the physical bending side of things. Wan wasn't really that much of a monk either, while many of the other Avatars we see would've had proper training for the spiritual side of their job, probably from the Air Monks themselves. all Korra had was a single family trying to piece together what they could while dealing with four different threats one after another, so she really didn't the proper training in what was normal and easy for Aang.

because half the point of Korra was showing how different another incarnation of the Avatar can be. you don't get Aang 2.0 with it. and in Korra's case you don't get any of the other Avatar before her either. every Avatar is unique for the time they grew up in.

[Morty]

As far as the Avatar State is concerned,

what I think happened is that the Avatar State was Aang's endgame, which he used to kick Ozai's ass seven ways until Sunday and the only reason Ozai survived was because Aang wasn't willing to kill him. But Korra acquired it at the end of Season One. So they downplayed it to make it easier to physically challenge her. However we explain it in-universe, I feel like it's the ultimate reason.

For better or worse, LoK is a lot more ambitious than ATLA. The original show was pretty by the numbers, just executed exceptionally well. LoK tries new things... and doesn't always stick the landing. But I don't think it deservers all the criticism it gets.

[Rogar Demonblud]

To go back to something on page one, since I keep forgetting to reply.

The reason the Fire Nation went out and genocided the Air Nomads was an attempt to kill the next Avatar before they could grow to the point of being able to interfere. At the start of the series, it looks like they've progressed on to finding the Waterbender Avatar.

It is the nature of fire to consume until there's nothing left to burn, after all. Unless you keep it properly managed--good servant vs bad master, as it were.

[Ramza00]

As far as the Avatar State is concerned,

For better or worse, LoK is a lot more ambitious than ATLA. The original show was pretty by the numbers, just executed exceptionally well. LoK tries new things... and doesn't always stick the landing. But I don't think it deservers all the criticism it gets.

Yes.

This.

I am shocked that some peoples distaste of Korra is so one sided. Yes Korra did not stick the landed always but it did lots of good as well and the people who are "negative fans" (I think the term for this is anti-s) only talk about the things they do not like and never voice the things they did like about the show, even if the the things they did like are not exceptional and excellence but just good as in decent tv.

[Pex]

In Book Three. Just saw Sokka's Trainer. Opening scene, I couldn't help but think about all the Warrior/Spellcaster power disparity arguments we have here. :smallbiggrin:

Good episode. Sokka gets his respect in earlier episodes, but here it's the point. I think the sword is a Chekov's Gun. That it's made from meteorite will mean something. It will be able to cut something that couldn't be cut that needs to be cut.

Curious if Zuko's affirmation of being Fire Nation and Iroh's capture was the story all along or necessary because of Mako's passing. I like how they are doing Iroh's story in prison. Being silent, not having a new voice actor yet, it feels like continuing the honor mourning. Maybe it's just my empathic perception. Maybe it's both. Either way it makes for good story.

[Rogar Demonblud]

For another series impacted by Mako's death, Samurai Jack. It's a little weird watching the two close together and going from cuddly Uncle Iroh to Shapeshifting Master of Evil Aku.

[Lethologica]

For better or worse, LoK is a lot more ambitious than ATLA. The original show was pretty by the numbers, just executed exceptionally well. LoK tries new things... and doesn't always stick the landing. But I don't think it deservers all the criticism it gets.
I think this should be contextualized a bit. ATLA had a straightforward base plot, but a cartoon getting to tell a serialized story over 60 episodes was no mean feat at the time, and it's reflected in how the show evolved from the mandated episodic adventures of season 1 to the more directed storytelling of later seasons. LoK also benefits from ATLA defining the setting's ground rules - and it's an ambitious setting! So I would say not to undersell the ambition of the original series.

[Peelee]

Unpopular opinion: Season 3 of LoK was the worst of the series so far. S4 seems promising from the first episode.

[Marillion]

I think the connection between the philosophy and the rest was also broken; the most egregious example to me was Korra's airbending at the end of season 1. She suddenly airbends because she's desperate - not because she learned to avoid and misdirect rather than face head-on, the way an airbender would. And she promptly continues to demonstrate this with a direct air-punch and a kick that screams earthbender. She can airbend - not because she suddenly understand it, but because the universe granted it to her.


The way I see it, Korra got airbending because she was finally free. She didn't need to learn how to evade and misdirect, she needed to learn to choose her own destiny. Air is the element of freedom, after all, and her entire life Korra had walked a path she thought she was expected to. From being young and embracing her newfound status because she'd grown up on stories about Aang, to spending her whole adolescence training, to becoming an adult and going to Republic City because the White Lotus decided it was time, she never really got a chance to work out for herself what being the Avatar meant to her. So when Amon took her bending away, she lost all the power that her identity was so wrapped up in. She had no idea what she was or what she was expected to do. In fact, everyone told her to stay away after she lost her bending. She was freed from all the pressure and expectations that she'd been tethered to. Even so, she decided that she was going to keep fighting against evil to save her friends. That's why she was finally able to airbend: she chose to keep fighting. She was free, and she still chose to be the Avatar for the first time in her life.

At least, that's what I think they were going for. It was fairly rushed though, would have liked to see it executed better.


Korra season 3 introduces a new "extreme" bending style: lavabending. What philosophy underlies the new style? What do Ghazan and Bolin hvae in common?


Remember back in the first season of ATLA, when Jeong Jeong said that fire was so much more dangerous than the other elements because a rock can't throw itself? Well, lava is what happens when the earth decides to move itself. Traditional earth-bending philosophy is essentially based on being more stubborn than the rock you're bending. This is fine when the rock is inert, but some people simply aren't headstrong or forceful in that way, and you'll notice that Bolin is both laid-back and a middling earthbender at best. Lava, on the other hand, is almost living the same way that fire is. It's certainly not something that you can easily overpower: Roku found this out the hard way when he challenged a volcano to an Agni Kai. Lava appears to move deceptively slow, but is unpredictable and nearly irresistible. It can't be commanded, only guided. I think it's relevant that both Ghazan and Bolin are fairly easy going, especially compared to your average earth-bender, and I think lava-bending represents how strong they are even though they may appear "soft" to other people who don't know them very well. It also represents their ability to stay calm and thrive under pressure, the same way that lava (well technically magma I suppose) is typically formed in the deepest parts of the earth.

Same disclaimer as above: I think that's what the writers were going for, but they didn't know how to show it very effectively in the time frame they had.

Bonus: A video demonstration of the martial art that Bolin's lava-bending forms are based off!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QGGQA2WTBI

[uncool]

The way I see it, Korra got airbending because she was finally free. She didn't need to learn how to evade and misdirect, she needed to learn to choose her own destiny. Air is the element of freedom, after all, and her entire life Korra had walked a path she thought she was expected to. From being young and embracing her newfound status because she'd grown up on stories about Aang, to spending her whole adolescence training, to becoming an adult and going to Republic City because the White Lotus decided it was time, she never really got a chance to work out for herself what being the Avatar meant to her. So when Amon took her bending away, she lost all the power that her identity was so wrapped up in. She had no idea what she was or what she was expected to do. In fact, everyone told her to stay away after she lost her bending. She was freed from all the pressure and expectations that she'd been tethered to. Even so, she decided that she was going to keep fighting against evil to save her friends. That's why she was finally able to airbend: she chose to keep fighting. She was free, and she still chose to be the Avatar for the first time in her life.

At least, that's what I think they were going for. It was fairly rushed though, would have liked to see it executed better.


I think you may be misremembering the show; there wasn't any time for people to tell her to stay away. She was de-bent in the last episode, and it happened minutes in-universe before she gained airbending - Korra gets de-bent, Mako shoots lightning at Amon, Mako tries to run away with Korra, Mako gets bloodbent again, and Korra hits Amon with airbending. She really never had time to experience that "freedom".

I can see some of the bits and pieces you're getting this from - Korra's nightmare early on mainly - but if that's what they were going for, then I honestly think they made some very questionable writing decisions. By de-bending her literally in the same episode she gained airbending, they gave no real time for that realization of freedom. I think that if that's the direction they wanted to go, they needed an episode or two actually showing her long-term reaction and internalization that she might never have that power - or that status - again.

That said, it is a good idea that might mix well with a rewrite of season 1 that I'm trying to write, where the depowering happens at the mid-season climax. Do you mind if I use it?

[Marillion]

I think you may be misremembering the show; there wasn't any time for people to tell her to stay away. She was de-bent in the last episode, and it happened minutes in-universe before she gained airbending - Korra gets de-bent, Mako shoots lightning at Amon, Mako tries to run away with Korra, Mako gets bloodbent again, and Korra hits Amon with airbending. She really never had time to experience that "freedom".

I can see some of the bits and pieces you're getting this from - Korra's nightmare early on mainly - but if that's what they were going for, then I honestly think they made some very questionable writing decisions. By de-bending her literally in the same episode she gained airbending, they gave no real time for that realization of freedom. I think that if that's the direction they wanted to go, they needed an episode or two actually showing her long-term reaction and internalization that she might never have that power - or that status - again.

That said, it is a good idea that might mix well with a rewrite of season 1 that I'm trying to write, where the depowering happens at the mid-season climax. Do you mind if I use it?



Oh dang, I could have sworn she spent a whole episode depowered before she got air-bending! But I haven't watched the series since it first came out, so clearly my memory isn't too reliable. That kinda does bork up my whole theory though, doesn't it? :smalltongue:

I'm glad you like the idea though, feel free to use it if it works for you!

[hungrycrow]

That said, it is a good idea that might mix well with a rewrite of season 1 that I'm trying to write, where the depowering happens at the mid-season climax. Do you mind if I use it?

I'm glad I'm not the only person who wastes time thinking about how to fix 'almost good' shows.

[uncool]

Unpopular opinion: Season 3 of LoK was the worst of the series so far. S4 seems promising from the first episode.

I'd like to hear why you think so. I'm with approximately the rest of the internet, I think, in considering S2 by far the worst.

[Peelee]

I'd like to hear why you think so. I'm with approximately the rest of the internet, I think, in considering S2 by far the worst.

Zaheer was entirely uninteresting to me. He's the third iteration of "some guy just really wants to take down the Avatar and is also absolutely in position to be a threat to the Avatar isn't that just nice and convenient?" I couldn't get behind his motivation at all - he's supposed to be philosophically inclined but has goals and ideals that would charitably be described as childish at best, and more likely wildly naive and hypocritical.

Season 2 at least had mover-star-Bolin as a reason to keep watching. Season 3? Not so much.

[Morty]

I think this should be contextualized a bit. ATLA had a straightforward base plot, but a cartoon getting to tell a serialized story over 60 episodes was no mean feat at the time, and it's reflected in how the show evolved from the mandated episodic adventures of season 1 to the more directed storytelling of later seasons. LoK also benefits from ATLA defining the setting's ground rules - and it's an ambitious setting! So I would say not to undersell the ambition of the original series.

Perhaps so, but I don't think it really changes my point. My intention isn't to disparage ATLA but to illustrate why the shows are different.



At least, that's what I think they were going for. It was fairly rushed though, would have liked to see it executed better.


I wouldn't read too deeply into this. I think it was more along the lines of Korra losing her bending and getting airbending being two items on the checklist before the credits rolled.

[hungrycrow]

i feel like the flaws of season 3 were overshadowed by the fact that the show finally had consequences at the end.

[Anonymouswizard]

Zaheer was entirely uninteresting to me. He's the third iteration of "some guy just really wants to take down the Avatar and is also absolutely in position to be a threat to the Avatar isn't that just nice and convenient?" I couldn't get behind his motivation at all - he's supposed to be philosophically inclined but has goals and ideals that would charitably be described as childish at best, and more likely wildly naive and hypocritical.

Season 2 at least had mover-star-Bolin as a reason to keep watching. Season 3? Not so much.

I mean, in season 1 the going after the Avatar stuff was coincidental, and I'm going to spoiler the rest of this.

Amon went after Korra because she was a Bender, her being the Avatar only mattered for the spin he could get ('even the spirits beleve I'm more right than the freaking bridge between the worlds'). He lets Korra go several times because he needs to depower her at the right moment for maximum impact. He's also possibly the most interesting villain, as the series spends a lot of time supporting the idea that he believes his ideals, and noticeably only ever bends to either take away others' bending or to save his life.

Unalaq wanted to kill Korra because he wanted to be the Avatar? Honestly I still don't quite get Season 2, but I'll agree Unalaq's goals made sense, become a Dark Avatar to try to bring the world back into balance, thinking that he deserves to be Avatar more than this unspiritual Korra, and all that stuff.

Zaheer's the first who truly focused on getting rid of the Avatar, but to be honest I'm still not sure why. Honestly it would have been better if Amon or Dark Avatar Unalaq had been the villain.

Kuvira was a good change of pace.

[Ramza00]

I mean, in season 1 the going after the Avatar stuff was coincidental, and I'm going to spoiler the rest of this.

Amon went after Korra because she was a Bender, her being the Avatar only mattered for the spin he could get ('even the spirits beleve I'm more right than the freaking bridge between the worlds'). He lets Korra go several times because he needs to depower her at the right moment for maximum impact. He's also possibly the most interesting villain, as the series spends a lot of time supporting the idea that he believes his ideals, and noticeably only ever bends to either take away others' bending or to save his life.

Unalaq wanted to kill Korra because he wanted to be the Avatar? Honestly I still don't quite get Season 2, but I'll agree Unalaq's goals made sense, become a Dark Avatar to try to bring the world back into balance, thinking that he deserves to be Avatar more than this unspiritual Korra, and all that stuff.

Zaheer's the first who truly focused on getting rid of the Avatar, but to be honest I'm still not sure why. Honestly it would have been better if Amon or Dark Avatar Unalaq had been the villain.

Kuvira was a good change of pace.

Villians of Korra. Responding to Anonymouswizard.


S1) It is likely that amon is actually bending whenever he fights benders. We learn that he blood bends merely via his breath "his psychic blood bending" and thus it follows he can probably cause attacks to have a higher miss chance against him by subtletly blood bending the targets in the middle of the fight. Oh your lightning bending Mr. Mafia Zolt guy it missed me for it is aiming where I was half a breath ago. Likewise Zolt's fire was missing by at least a breath. Furthermore Amon had to use his own bloodbending to disrupt Tarrlock's hold on him.

S2) We never fully get Unalaq's full philosophy, all the dozens of thesis of it, plus the reactionary part where he has an ideal vision and he is mad at X, Y, and Z for messing it up. But we do not need to know Unalaq's full vision. All we need to know is Unalaq wants to break this current world in order to restructure it in a way he feels more congruous with his "idea." Unalaq did have ideas, he did not just lust for power, but power is a means to some future end and we never learn what that future end was. Merely he was willing to break the world in order to save it.

S3) Zaheer sees an imbalance of power relations leads the powerful to then dominate people and dominate people in an arbitrary fashion for might makes right. Only by getting rid of the various superpowers can you then have the liberty, and there are several definitions of liberty out there but I think Zaheer believes in the definition as "liberty as non-domination, and especially arbitrary non-domination."

S4) Kuvira was in the right, she merely went too far and when given power she became a tyrant. She took the opportunity and not backing down when she had the power due to childhood trauma. (Sidenote I would argue Suyin's indifference to the suffering of others when there was a civil war, and criminals preyed on the weak is kind of unforgivable in a different way than Kuvira. Indifference and deficiency is the opposite extreme from excess.)

Literally 2 of the 4 Villians Amon and Kuvira had childhood traumas which shaped their worldview and this worldview they kept while they were Villians.. We do not know Zaheer's backstory merely he was once a teenager and he freed his lover P'Li from abusive trauma. Lastly we have Unalaq, where we do not know if he had any trauma, yet we do know he had envy and thinks he is more "excellent" than everyone else such as his brother and nephew and it should have been him... "Scar Style."

[Peelee]

I mean, in season 1 the going after the Avatar stuff was coincidental, and I'm going to spoiler the rest of this.

Amon went after Korra because she was a Bender, her being the Avatar only mattered for the spin he could get ('even the spirits beleve I'm more right than the freaking bridge between the worlds'). He lets Korra go several times because he needs to depower her at the right moment for maximum impact. He's also possibly the most interesting villain, as the series spends a lot of time supporting the idea that he believes his ideals, and noticeably only ever bends to either take away others' bending or to save his life.

Unalaq wanted to kill Korra because he wanted to be the Avatar? Honestly I still don't quite get Season 2, but I'll agree Unalaq's goals made sense, become a Dark Avatar to try to bring the world back into balance, thinking that he deserves to be Avatar more than this unspiritual Korra, and all that stuff.

Zaheer's the first who truly focused on getting rid of the Avatar, but to be honest I'm still not sure why. Honestly it would have been better if Amon or Dark Avatar Unalaq had been the villain.

Kuvira was a good change of pace.

Amon's entire movement relied on eventually taking on the Avatar. Yes, he waited until he could utilize the Avatar for maximum effect, but the Avatar was still a mandatory target at some point.

Unalaq similarly would have to destroy the Avatar; his plan didn't rely on it, but once he took the Evil spirit in and became Evil Avatar, it would be a foregone conclusion that Evil Avatar would assault Good Avatar.

Zaheer... didn't need to go after the Avatar at all. He was raging against governments and nations, which the Avatar is not a part of (well, Aang did found Republic City, but even then IIRC he wasn't involved in the government, even if his son was; regardless, Korra certainly wasn't).

A Death Star is a great plot device. A second Death Star I could go without. A third Death Star, come up with something else already dammit. Zaheer stunk and it took me longer to get through Season 3 than the first two combined because of how disinterested in it I was. Season 4 is markedly better, and has the potential to be the best overall. Whether it can be better than S1 remains to be seen.

[druid91]

Amon's entire movement relied on eventually taking on the Avatar. Yes, he waited until he could utilize the Avatar for maximum effect, but the Avatar was still a mandatory target at some point.

Unalaq similarly would have to destroy the Avatar; his plan didn't rely on it, but once he took the Evil spirit in and became Evil Avatar, it would be a foregone conclusion that Evil Avatar would assault Good Avatar.

Zaheer... didn't need to go after the Avatar at all. He was raging against governments and nations, which the Avatar is not a part of (well, Aang did found Republic City, but even then IIRC he wasn't involved in the government, even if his son was; regardless, Korra certainly wasn't).

A Death Star is a great plot device. A second Death Star I could go without. A third Death Star, come up with something else already dammit. Zaheer stunk and it took me longer to get through Season 3 than the first two combined because of how disinterested in it I was. Season 4 is markedly better, and has the potential to be the best overall. Whether it can be better than S1 remains to be seen.

Taking on the Avatar yes. Destroying them, no. While one of the key powers of the Avatar is bending all four elements, there are clearly other powers involved in being Avatar. And no real proof that 'The Avatar' would be destroyed by being de-bendered.

Unalaq would have to fight the Avatar yes. Every villain in a show centered around a heroic avatar is going to have to fight the Avatar to achieve their plans. But his plan wasn't really about Korra at all.

Zaheer, explains outright WHY he's trying to kill the Avatar. The Avatar is the incarnate guardian of the Status Quo. If he wants to destroy the bending nations so that the people can be free, he has to destroy the guardian devoted to keeping those nations in balance.

[Peelee]

Taking on the Avatar yes. Destroying them, no. While one of the key powers of the Avatar is bending all four elements, there are clearly other powers involved in being Avatar. And no real proof that 'The Avatar' would be destroyed by being de-bendered.

Unalaq would have to fight the Avatar yes. Every villain in a show centered around a heroic avatar is going to have to fight the Avatar to achieve their plans. But his plan wasn't really about Korra at all.

Zaheer, explains outright WHY he's trying to kill the Avatar. The Avatar is the incarnate guardian of the Status Quo. If he wants to destroy the bending nations so that the people can be free, he has to destroy the guardian devoted to keeping those nations in balance.

Avatar doesn't need to be destroyed to be defeated. The fact is that the Avatar was the biggest target for their stated goal.

And anyway, I openly prefaced my original statement with "unpopular opinion." I don't expect many people, if any, to agree with me. For me, Zaheer's motivation was bad and he should feel bad. I am absolutely willing to explain why I hold that opinion, but it would be an uphill climb for me to change my opinion. And, even if I did encounter enough reasoning to change my opinion, it wouldn't alter the fact that while watching Season 3 I was bored out of my mind for most of it and did not enjoy it anywhere near as much as the rest of the show, including Season 2.

[Lord Raziere]

See, Zaheer's goal is basically "I want people free from unequal power structures, and unfortunately all power structures are inherently unequal by their design and human nature" these are both reasonable points. and him wanting that makes sense, because wouldn't it be great if we could just be free and not have to deal with the nonsense of people having authority over others and people could just be good to one another?

like its a very human thing to want. its a very Air thing thing to want as well: the Airbenders didn't have much in the way of authority figures or structure, they were just monks who wanted to be peaceful and others to be peaceful as well. to him there is proof of a society that made it work, 180 years ago that he was never apart of, that he can only recreate from the texts left over and whatever knowledge Tenzin got from Aang. That he can only touch upon by emulating their spiritual practices and meditations while the world around him only grows more materialistic, more greedy, more cheap and shallow and full of Varricks and Tarrloks and that Earth Queen who exploits her nation for her own pleasures and no one is doing anything about it, only able to watch as the peace Aang worked for, the work of one of the greatest airbenders to ever live becomes corrupted into this gilded age of robber barons, corrupt politicians and petty tyrants. All the while the air nomads never return and the world only drifts away from his ideals.

If he was any less spiritual and devoted to the Air Nomad teachings, Zaheer would probably be furious at the state of things. So he breathes. he lets the anger go as his teachings demand, but his opinion on the world remains. he rationalizes it. he turns it into a plan, into apart of his philosophy, into something that he can calmly implement and carry out believing its for the good of all the world. That the world NEEDS him to destroy these corrupts power structures. that he will free them of their attachments to authority to enlighten them into a better world. a more peaceful world where everyone can just relax and be happy. where the air nomads won't just be reborn, but change the world for the better.

And when he gets Airbending in his cell after so long? After all the years of devotion? there can only be one possible thing he is feeling at that moment: VINDICATION. Vindication that the element of air has accepted him, that he is spiritual enough to be an Airbender. Vindication that he is fully within the Air Nomad's philosophy. Vindication that he is right, in his mind. So he goes forth to try and make it happen.

the problem, is that reality does not match his ideals. Air in Avatar is about nothing but philosophies and ideals, the high minded pie-in-the-sky dreams of man we all wish were true, but never will be: the dream of peace and happiness for everyone, a world without negative attachments, without realism or pragmatism. is it stupid? Yes. in the same way many philosophers are stupid in that they focus too much on how things should be to deal with how things are. They craft intricate well thought out ideas that are pretty to think about and play with in hypotheticals and theories, but at the end of the day they're nothing but thoughts and not action. reality is never as good as the dreams and philosophies we make in our heads. such it is with Zaheer, that his Air ideals would never work in reality, but being unattached to reality means that your less likely to acknowledge reality. look at how much Aang tries to ignore he is the Avatar, after all.

if Zaheer was a bit more realistic, and had a plan for setting up a better government after he killed the Earth Queen like elections- he wouldn't even be a villain. most of the characters of the original Avatar were prepared to kill Ozai without much qualms or quibbles about it, not killing him was just Aang's personal issue. and Earth Queen honestly had it coming. if Zaheer wasn't going to do it, chances are Korra was going to do it but without the murder, or Kuvira was going to do it and become dictator anyways. you could hardly find a more evil person for him to off.

he is not a villain because he killed the Earth Queen, he is villain because he turned around and let the Earth Kingdom fall into chaos because he put his philosophical beliefs before any realistic concerns about establishing a new better government because he hates the very idea of governments- a very Air thing to do, considering that Aang was more concerned about his own philosophical belief against killing than any practical need to end the war. now could he have been more realistic in what he wanted or how he went about doing it? Yes. But if he was realistic, he'd rapidly become so harmless that he wouldn't try to do anything, he'd just be one of those crazy guys respectfully asking everyone to stop having governments through social movements and no one listening to him because thats simply never happening. and then you wouldn't have a plot.

[Peelee]

See, Zaheer's goal is basically "I want people free from unequal power structures, and unfortunately all power structures are inherently unequal by their design and human nature" these are both reasonable points. and him wanting that makes sense, because wouldn't it be great if we could just be free and not have to deal with the nonsense of people having authority over others

I'm gonna stop you right there.

The problem that is immediately apparent is that Zaheer openly pursues this goal by being a member of the Red Lotus, an organization with radically powerful people, who themselves exemplify an unequal power structure over non-benders, let alone other benders. Further, at one point he holds the Air monks hostage by force, which is both exerting authority over others and showcasing an unequal power structure (he can do this because he is more powerful than they are). This is the very point of why his goal is nonsensical from the very beginning - his ideal world is one in which might will very rapidly make right, which still ends up in unequal power structures and some people having authority over others by definition. In order to achieve his goal, he has to act in direct opposition to his goal in the hopes that he can enact his goal which will immediately and inherently result in the exact opposite of his goal, but even worse.

[LaZodiac]

I'm gonna stop you right there.

The problem that is immediately apparent is that Zaheer openly pursues this goal by being a member of the Red Lotus, an organization with radically powerful people, who themselves exemplify an unequal power structure over non-benders, let alone other benders. Further, at one point he holds the Air monks hostage by force, which is both exerting authority over others and showcasing an unequal power structure (he can do this because he is more powerful than they are). This is the very point of why his goal is nonsensical from the very beginning - his ideal world is one in which might will very rapidly make right, which still ends up in unequal power structures and some people having authority over others by definition. In order to achieve his goal, he has to act in direct opposition to his goal in the hopes that he can enact his goal which will immediately and inherently result in the exact opposite of his goal, but even worse.

Somehow I'm not surprised that the evil guy who takes a genuinely good ideology and pushes it to an evil conclusion due to his warped mentality is a hypocrite.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm gonna stop you right there.

The problem that is immediately apparent is that Zaheer openly pursues this goal by being a member of the Red Lotus, an organization with radically powerful people, who themselves exemplify an unequal power structure over non-benders, let alone other benders. Further, at one point he holds the Air monks hostage by force, which is both exerting authority over others and showcasing an unequal power structure (he can do this because he is more powerful than they are). This is the very point of why his goal is nonsensical from the very beginning - his ideal world is one in which might will very rapidly make right, which still ends up in unequal power structures and some people having authority over others by definition. In order to achieve his goal, he has to act in direct opposition to his goal in the hopes that he can enact his goal which will immediately and inherently result in the exact opposite of his goal, but even worse.

Are you saying that an extremist villain with very strict standards of morality that cannot possibly exist in this world, is in fact.....GASP....a hypocrite!?

I am shocked sir.

So shocked. Its truly horrific. Surely this has never happened before and never will again. Surely all well-written villains are perfectly consistent with their goals in ways that make sense to good people with morals against what they are doing and an objective outside perspective to logically observe and analyze their actions down to the most minute detail. Surely. There cannot possibly be examples of other villains being hypocritical despite their strong moral beliefs. No, not all.

Apologies for the sarcasm. But I don't see whats so special about this. human hypocrisy is nothing new, in fact its something thats a little hard to escape as Aang knows full well. But then I find the idea that a moral rule must be followed no matter the circumstances making it a bad idea a very silly and unrealistic one for both good and evil. and the idea that a moral extremist like Zaheer who is willing to resort to violence for his goals would even care about criticism or that he is a hypocrite, is silly. he is a criminal with an unrealistic philosophy killing anyone in his way and sacrificing his own friends and lover all to achieve something he'd probably constantly maintain by killing anyone who tries to put his chaos to order. if he cared, he would've stopped long ago when he first started expressing his philosophy to others and those people point out the problems with his philosophy. considering that he goes ahead with it anyways, he clearly has already considered those situations acceptable sacrifices/losses if he is doing them.

like the real philosophy of all moral extremists is "whatever sacrifices I have to make to achieve my big dream is acceptable". because to them, the only ideal state of their philosophy or desire is it being everywhere, in everyone forever. Therefore any actions taken to achieve that state are meaningless compared to that achievement. The achievement outweighs all other concerns. thats why its extreme. are all the things you say true? Yes. would that stop Zaheer from trying and keep on killing, thinking the might makes right will cease? No. if he cared about his friends he wouldn't have sacrificed them, if he cared about your criticisms he wouldn't be a villain and if he cared or paid attention to about the impossibility of his goal, he wouldn't try to achieve it.

[Peelee]

Are you saying that an extremist villain with very strict standards of morality that cannot possibly exist in this world, is in fact.....GASP....a hypocrite!?

I am shocked sir.

So shocked. Its truly horrific. Surely this has never happened before and never will again. Surely all well-written villains are perfectly consistent with their goals in ways that make sense to good people with morals against what they are doing and an objective outside perspective to logically observe and analyze their actions down to the most minute detail. Surely. There cannot possibly be examples of other villains being hypocritical despite their strong moral beliefs. No, not all.

Apologies for the sarcasm. But I don't see whats so special about this. human hypocrisy is nothing new, in fact its something thats a little hard to escape as Aang knows full well. But then I find the idea that a moral rule must be followed no matter the circumstances making it a bad idea a very silly and unrealistic one for both good and evil. and the idea that a moral extremist like Zaheer who is willing to resort to violence for his goals would even care about criticism or that he is a hypocrite, is silly. he is a criminal with an unrealistic philosophy killing anyone in his way and sacrificing his own friends and lover all to achieve something he'd probably constantly maintain by killing anyone who tries to put his chaos to order. if he cared, he would've stopped long ago when he first started expressing his philosophy to others and those people point out the problems with his philosophy. considering that he goes ahead with it anyways, he clearly has already considered those situations acceptable sacrifices/losses if he is doing them.

like the real philosophy of all moral extremists is "whatever sacrifices I have to make to achieve my big dream is acceptable". because to them, the only ideal state of their philosophy or desire is it being everywhere, in everyone forever. Therefore any actions taken to achieve that state are meaningless compared to that achievement. The achievement outweighs all other concerns. thats why its extreme. are all the things you say true? Yes. would that stop Zaheer from trying and keep on killing, thinking the might makes right will cease? No. if he cared about his friends he wouldn't have sacrificed them, if he cared about your criticisms he wouldn't be a villain and if he cared or paid attention to about the impossibility of his goal, he wouldn't try to achieve it.


My issue with him isn't his hypocrisy. My issue with him is how his his ideals and beliefs immediately fall apart under the most cursory glance despite the fact that he is presented as a highly educated and otherwise well-rounded philosopher. It's even more to the point in a world with elemental benders who are openly more powerful than other humans, and even moreso coming on the tails of a cult of personality that argued for equality among people which could not be achieved so long as benders existed.

Well, my main issue. Secondary (but not far behind) issue is how upon gaining airbending, he immediately becomes a greater prodigy than anyone else, despite not having anyone able to teach him airbending, and having a cadre of massively overpowered benders who also specialize in rare abilities. Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't go back to the bloodbending well for the water bender, and even then I'm mostly convinced they didn't because of how a bloodbending villain was a large plot point in season 1 and that would have just been too on the nose.

Like I said, it was pretty boring to me, and I wasn't eager to watch the next episode through the entire season.

[Ramza00]

My issue with him isn't his hypocrisy. My issue with him is how his his ideals and beliefs immediately fall apart under the most cursory glance despite the fact that he is presented as a highly educated and otherwise well-rounded philosopher. It's even more to the point in a world with elemental benders who are openly more powerful than other humans, and even moreso coming on the tails of a cult of personality that argued for equality among people which could not be achieved so long as benders existed.

Well, my main issue. Secondary (but not far behind) issue is how upon gaining airbending, he immediately becomes a greater prodigy than anyone else, despite not having anyone able to teach him airbending, and having a cadre of massively overpowered benders who also specialize in rare abilities. Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't go back to the bloodbending well for the water bender, and even then I'm mostly convinced they didn't because of how a bloodbending villain was a large plot point in season 1 and that would have just been too on the nose.

Like I said, it was pretty boring to me, and I wasn't eager to watch the next episode through the entire season.




They did consider making Ming-Hua a blood bender but decided not to for it was too similar to season 1 (roughly 2:30 of the video.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csjNTbBtUqo

But yeah if it wasn't obvious the Red Lotus is supposed to be a counterpart of Avatar: The Last Airbender's "The Game" / "Team Avatar"

-----

As for is Zaheer philosophy is workable or not? Well I can't talk about that due to real world politics, philosophy, and history rules. People who are very smart and taught at Harvard honestly and earnestly believed similar things to Zaheer.

*shrug* Delusions happen everywhere and all the time, being able to see the world as it is now but also how it was in the past and how it could be means you can always see what you want to see, for seeing is believing. *shrug*

[Anonymouswizard]

My issue with him isn't his hypocrisy. My issue with him is how his his ideals and beliefs immediately fall apart under the most cursory glance despite the fact that he is presented as a highly educated and otherwise well-rounded philosopher.

That's not an opinion shared by everybody. While generally not as radical in promoting it as Zaheer, his beliefs are based on ones people hold in the real world, and I'm not going any further than that. You can complain all you want, but to me Zaheer is a better Well Intentioned Extremist than Kuvira was, but just a villain the show did not need. Heck, I remember the Zaheer's parts being the most enjoyable moments of Season Three, but still wish Amon had returned instead in several ways.

Although I'd have had a lot less problems with Zaheer if the previous seasons had just built him up.

[dancrilis]

My issue with him is how his his ideals and beliefs immediately fall apart under the most cursory glance despite the fact that he is presented as a highly educated and otherwise well-rounded philosopher.

I think the same every time I see someone portrayed as an wise and reasoned who is never asked questions that I think are obvious.

[Illven]

Well, my main issue. Secondary (but not far behind) issue is how upon gaining airbending, he immediately becomes a greater prodigy than anyone else, despite not having anyone able to teach him airbending, and having a cadre of massively overpowered benders who also specialize in rare abilities. Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't go back to the bloodbending well for the water bender, and even then I'm mostly convinced they didn't because of how a bloodbending villain was a large plot point in season 1 and that would have just been too on the nose.

Like I said, it was pretty boring to me, and I wasn't eager to watch the next episode through the entire season.


But he was a massive Air nation fanboy for whatever spirituality means.

In addition besides flight, Tenzin floors him in their fight, and even Kya who grew up in a time of peace is able to do alot better then anyone else due to her familiarity with the style.



I've never understood why the spread of metalbending is such a problem for people. I mean once Calculus was a rare art, now it's taught in high school.

Toph was able to discover it, due to being an exceptionally talented earthbender uniquely suited to discovering it.

And even then, a line for Bolin suggests that it's still rare for earth benders to learn. "1 in 100" I believe he says, which even if it's an exaggeration is still many earthbenders not able to learn it.

[Hopeless]

I wonder what if Zaheer was a noted airbender who was one of Amon's earliest "victims"?
If there are surviving Sky Bison why not surviving Air Benders ala Jedi survivors of the Dark Times?
Amon's reputation can be traced back to defeating Zaheer the leader of a group of radicals whose attempt to seize power is curtailed when Zaheer lost his powers to an unknown bender.
Given Unalaq was part of Zaheer's group his identity and others a secret for their planned takeover.

Kuvira's trauma can be linked to Zaheer's first attempt to seize power and Toph eventually becoming a recluse for the same reason?
Could have made the Earthbender a prized student of hers could even be related one of her husband's making his betrayal that much more painful
Would the Korra work better if there was some kind of link between them that furthers the plot?

Ironically I missed the episode that revealed Unalaq was involved!

[Anonymouswizard]

I wonder what if Zaheer was a noted airbender who was one of Amon's earliest "victims"?
If there are surviving Sky Bison why not surviving Air Benders ala Jedi survivors of the Dark Times?

While there's a decent chance that Zaheer has Air Nomad ancestry (not hard, it's likely at least some Air Nomads weren't in the temples during the massacres), it's unlikely he was an actual Bender. At the very least he wasn't trained as one due to the widespread brief that Aang was literally the last. Any surviving Nomads would have done their best to hide their status and integrate into the Earth Kingdom, which would have included not telling their descendents about it until after the war ended.

Notably if there were other Airbenders than Tenzin sprogging wouldn't be such a big deal.

However that doesn't mean that Zaheer wasn't an Air Acolyte or a student of Air Nomad culture, and he picks up Airbending fast enough that he's certainly a trained marital artist and might have some familiarity with Airbending forms. But if he was a bender before then there's probably be more effort going into identifying other survivors or explaining why Zaheer is the only other person who recieved training.


As a side note,I want to share my biggest disappointment with The Legend of Korra:
I was really looking forward to seeing the return of Agni-Kai and the Earthbending wrestling as mainstream sports equivalent to boxing and wrestling. Mainly because the two Agni-Kai duels in TLA were my favourite scenes, fast paced but ready to file combats with a clear win condition. Not the the Pro Bending thing was bad, but it was just not as fun to watch as Agni-Kai had been.

[Morty]

Amon went after Korra because she was a Bender, her being the Avatar only mattered for the spin he could get ('even the spirits beleve I'm more right than the freaking bridge between the worlds'). He lets Korra go several times because he needs to depower her at the right moment for maximum impact. He's also possibly the most interesting villain, as the series spends a lot of time supporting the idea that he believes his ideals, and noticeably only ever bends to either take away others' bending or to save his life.


Does it? The only words out of Amon's mouth that we can trust to any degree at all come after Korra declares him as a bloodbender. His plans boil down to "I'm going to depower you, but not yet, because reasons". The only real hint we have for his motivation is a guess by someone who hadn't seen him in 20 years.

Amon is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. I appreciate Zaheer because he's just a dangerous, clever man who assembles a team of other dangerous people to hunt down the Avatar. There's no traaaaagic backstory or deep motivation necessary. He provides a dangerous challenge to Korra and reverts the usual "heroes as underdogs" dynamic, because it's mostly just four people.

[Peelee]

Does it? The only words out of Amon's mouth that we can trust to any degree at all come after Korra declares him as a bloodbender. His plans boil down to "I'm going to depower you, but not yet, because reasons". The only real hint we have for his motivation is a guess by someone who hadn't seen him in 20 years.

Amon is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. I appreciate Zaheer because he's just a dangerous, clever man who assembles a team of other dangerous people to hunt down the Avatar. There's no traaaaagic backstory or deep motivation necessary. He provides a dangerous challenge to Korra and reverts the usual "heroes as underdogs" dynamic, because it's mostly just four people.

That's another reason Im disinterested in Zaheer - there's nothing really there to him. He's just an *******.

[Yanagi]

I was really looking forward to seeing the return of Agni-Kai and the Earthbending wrestling as mainstream sports equivalent to boxing and wrestling. Mainly because the two Agni-Kai duels in TLA were my favourite scenes, fast paced but ready to file combats with a clear win condition. Not the the Pro Bending thing was bad, but it was just not as fun to watch as Agni-Kai had been.

Eh, it makes sense that Agni Kai went away, though: it wasn't really a sport, it was dueling.

The Agni Kai represented everything that had gone wrong with Fire Nation culture and leadership: power justifies itself, so violence is just the ultimate form of rhetoric.

When the audience is introduced to the idea, it's exciting but also a shorthand demonstration of who the Fire Nation are: issues of personal etiquette amongst the elite are conflated with issues of policy that are then escalated to a physical struggle. It's exciting to watch Zuko and Zhao fight, but...what you're being shown is that the people in the Fire Nation with power have created a system where advancement of personal gain trumps putative ideals that define their nationalism and imperialism.

The running theme of the Agni Kai is the bad faith engagement of Fire Nation elite. Zhao keeps fighting after he formally loses; Sozin doesn't just defeat his child, but maims Zuko as assertion of his absolute power ; Azula firsts calls for a fair match then cheats. It also demonstrates in that first Agni Kai why Zuko is an exile--he practices honor in good faith and sees power as a duty--while Zhao turns out to be a synedoche for the whole Fire Nation--the rules and ideals exist until they're inconvenient.

We don't see the new Fire Nation much, but it would makes sense that Agni Kai would be downplayed, or outright banned, as part of a reformist regime. A political systems in which advancement and policy are tied to direct power contests is inherently unstable and rewards people with the most antisocial instincts. With time it might take on the kind of formal rules that differentiate sport fencing from swordfighting,

Earth bending wrestling on the other hand is pure winning and probably still exists in the LoK timeline...but the region where it's practiced is politically unstable and desperately poor, so it doesn't have the profile of a sports practiced in a giant metropolis.

[Pex]

Finished!

Absolutely fantastic! No complaints. Well done!

[Peelee]

Finished!

Absolutely fantastic! No complaints. Well done!

In the case I recommend you go back through the thread reading all the spoilers (well, except the Korra ones, if you're interested in watching that) to see the discussion you were missing.

I'm really glad you enjoyed it!

[Lord Raziere]

Finished!

Absolutely fantastic! No complaints. Well done!

glad you like it. Its well-regarded for a reason.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

What I feel like Legend of Korra highlighted most about the original Avatar show is how minimalistic it was, in a sense. Anything that could be left out, was. The world of Avatar is above all a fantasy world, and most of the details of that fantasy are left to the imagination. This would never occur to me while watching Avatar though. The world feels super alive, there are weird animals here, and a cool festival there, and this Earth Kingdom machinery and... Only comparing the show with the busy streets of Legend shows what's missing. Avatar pretty much only has details when and where they matter.

And I think this also shows what Legend of Korra was never trying to be: another Avatar. It's a sequel, but not more of the same. And I can respect that. They didn't want to try and emulate greatness that wasn't their own and risk becoming a mediocre ripoff. If Legend was going to be mediocre, it would be so on its own terms.

In another sense, because Avatar is a masterclass in leaving out, the world also felt very complete. When Aang masters bending and restores balance to the world (that's not a spoiler, that's the goal of the series since the intro to episode 1) it feels like bending has pretty much been explored completely. Here too Legend takes an approach of more detail. More different approaches to bending, different ways of looking at it emotionally, different new subtypes where and when they could come up with them. The whole family dynamics build around the siblings of the mentor figure, the whole drawn out picking between two boys plot, new people developing air bending. It's filling the world with chaos, with details and plot lines that are designed to not be cleanly resolved in a way the story was clearly headed for since day one. I don't even properly remember what logical series of events happened at the ending of the series, and I certainly couldn't summarize it in one spoiler free sentence like I did with Avatar's conclusion at the start of this paragraph. Legend of Korra deliberately takes perhaps the most central stylistic attribute of Avatar and takes a completely opposite approach to it.

And all in all, I think it managed to be a pretty cool show. It certainly wasn't Avatar, but that's because it very much made sure it wasn't. It also wasn't quite as brilliant as Avatar, but it probably wouldn't have been that either way.

[Lord Raziere]

I'd say that whether someone likes Korra, depends on the way you like ATLA.

if you like ATLA because of the minimalist complete reasons lvl 2 expert just listed....probably not for you. which is valid, ATLA works as a complete self-contained story where everything is wrapped up, and for a while it was a self-contained story with little to no additions beyond that, there are side materials sure but you don't really need to read them to appreciate it, I sure haven't read those comics.

if you like ATLA however because its a world you want to explore more well, then Korra is probably for you, because its basically an answer to questions such as "what is the origin of the Avatar?" "what do major villains of the other three elements look like?" "how does the progress of tech affect the Avatar World?" "what does a conflict between benders and non-benders look like?" "what is the story of an Avatar who isn't Aang?" "how far can the alternate bending styles go?" "what stories can we make out of all the stuff ATLA ignored?" things like that.

whatever you think it, its certainly a different beast and intentionally so, I like and respect that, because why tell the same story again? you want to experience ATLA again, you already have it, you can rewatch it and it'll probably be a better experience than trying to replicate it. ATLA's lightning in a bottle you can't catch it twice. I like Korra because its different and while in some ways its not as good, I don't think you could fix it by just making it more like ATLA because the story structures are entirely different. if I could fix it, it'd be in ways to further emphasize differences and strength Korra has that ATLA doesn't so as to try and explore all the stuff ATLA didn't, better.

[Peelee]

ATLA's lightning in a bottle you can't catch it twice.

Tangentially related, but...

When I first watched Community a couple of years ago, very quickly I was able to figure out that I had found something very special, and by the time of the paintball episode I knew that it was downright magical. Then, when there was a second paintball episode, I thought to myself, "no guys, don't do it, the paintball episode was a once-in-a-series occurrence, a high that should not be attempted again because when the climb falls short it is that much more apparent and disappointing." It was lightning in a bottle. And then I watched the second season paintball episode.

They caught lightning twice.

It can be done. It is just very, very difficult. But oh so wonderful when it happens.

[Dienekes]

Tangentially related, but...

When I first watched Community a couple of years ago, very quickly I was able to figure out that I had found something very special, and by the time of the paintball episode I knew that it was downright magical. Then, when there was a second paintball episode, I thought to myself, "no guys, don't do it, the paintball episode was a once-in-a-series occurrence, a high that should not be attempted again because when the climb falls short it is that much more apparent and disappointing." It was lightning in a bottle. And then I watched the second season paintball episode.

They caught lightning twice.

It can be done. It is just very, very difficult. But oh so wonderful when it happens.

Part of that was how they used the paintball episodes though. It was never really about paintball. The first one was where they explored -essentially- a dystopian end of the world/roving gangs story that was used as a means of developing the relationship of Britta and Jeff. While the second two were a pastiche on first Westerns then Star Wars and focused first on dealing with Chevy Chase's growing villainy and then on saving Greendale (while also finishing up the last details of the evil Pierce story).

What made them so good was what makes most genre fiction good really. An interesting setting/challenge used as a vehicle to explore the human condition.

I'd argue that the Death Star in Star Wars served a very similar role. The first time it was the set piece used to showcase how unprepared and desperate the heroes were, while also providing the greatest challenge for Han to face up against to determine if he's willing to just let his new friends die or rescue them, and the unbeatable objective that requires Luke to truly lose himself to the Force. It worked great.

In Return of the Jedi, I think it still worked quite well. It retains it's initial set piece showcase of the power of the emperor. But it also serves as the bastion of the Empire, unassailable and evil where Luke must go to defeat the Emperor in his own home and face against his father. Now while I think it works good, I don't think it worked as well as the original because it didn't really provide much more than just a challenge for our other protagonists Han and Leia.

But like Community, where the setting worked damn well twice and it could have been used again in a different context in theory. Each subsequent Community paintball episode was not as good as they retread old ground. While by the end of Star Wars we get "here's a fleet of Death Stars! See how generically dangerous that is?" While it doesn't really do anything but add a time-limit to the other things the protagonist Rey was doing. And while it could have been a great challenge for Finn, Finn wasn't really anything of importance in the movie so it didn't quite work, for me anyway.

Tangent aside. Part of what worked so well with ATLA was the awesome setting, of course. But what it was really about was -well many things- but I'm going to focus on war, genocide, forgiveness, and the role of violence in society.

For me what made ATLA so great was that it took the points of war with it's basic view of good and evil, and challenged it. We saw why the villains were as they were, and even saw some honor and development in the initially uniformly evil Fire Nation. It took a simple premise used for the setting and plot and really ground down and developed it beautifully to the point that picking just one of the themes that ATLA is about you could write papers on what it is trying to say about the subject.

Where LOK fell flat for me, for the first two seasons anyway, is that it seemed to do the exact opposite. It took this amazing complicated situation discussing topics of equality, means of power, the fairness of political structures and instead of developing them into interesting ideas, we keep getting excuses to simplify the situation so Korra can just punch it away.

Which still left me thinking the show was fine. Smarter than a lot of other kids shows. But I still ended up dropping it. Because of that issue and because the characters just did not click with me.

[uncool]

I'd say that whether someone likes Korra, depends on the way you like ATLA.

if you like ATLA because of the minimalist complete reasons lvl 2 expert just listed....probably not for you. which is valid, ATLA works as a complete self-contained story where everything is wrapped up, and for a while it was a self-contained story with little to no additions beyond that, there are side materials sure but you don't really need to read them to appreciate it, I sure haven't read those comics.

if you like ATLA however because its a world you want to explore more well, then Korra is probably for you, because its basically an answer to questions such as "what is the origin of the Avatar?" "what do major villains of the other three elements look like?" "how does the progress of tech affect the Avatar World?" "what does a conflict between benders and non-benders look like?" "what is the story of an Avatar who isn't Aang?" "how far can the alternate bending styles go?" "what stories can we make out of all the stuff ATLA ignored?" things like that.

whatever you think it, its certainly a different beast and intentionally so, I like and respect that, because why tell the same story again? you want to experience ATLA again, you already have it, you can rewatch it and it'll probably be a better experience than trying to replicate it. ATLA's lightning in a bottle you can't catch it twice. I like Korra because its different and while in some ways its not as good, I don't think you could fix it by just making it more like ATLA because the story structures are entirely different. if I could fix it, it'd be in ways to further emphasize differences and strength Korra has that ATLA doesn't so as to try and explore all the stuff ATLA didn't, better.
The thing is, I liked ATLA for both reasons - as a "tight" story (which I personally think better characterizes it than "minimal"), and as a world to explore. A lot of why I liked ATLA was an "organizing principle", as Lethologica termed it last page, that there is (quoting myself) "a deep connection between movement, action, instinct, thought, and philosophy"

And part of the reason I don't especially like LoK is that I would like to see more of that world according to that principle, and instead, the canon continuation broke that principle, and did so poorly. I'm doubtful that there will be the exploration of the kind of world I got from ATLA.

[uncool]

Bad signs for the live-action ATLA: Bryke pulled out because (they claim) Netflix wasn't giving them the creative control they were promised.
https://www.michaeldantedimartino.com/an-open-letter-to-avatar-the-last-airbender-fans/

[Morty]

I'd be disappointed and concerned if I ever had any hope or good expectations for this adaptation.

[KatsOfLoathing]

That the original creators of the show pulled out definitely isn't a good sign, especially since this show was billed as being a relatively-faithful live-action adaptation of the original.

Wonder what changes Netflix is planning on making to "appeal to a wider audience" or whatnot. Hopefully the massive uptick of appreciation for the original show since it came to Netflix will dissuade them from anything too radical.

[Peelee]

Bad signs for the live-action ATLA: Bryke pulled out because (they claim) Netflix wasn't giving them the creative control they were promised.
https://www.michaeldantedimartino.com/an-open-letter-to-avatar-the-last-airbender-fans/

So I now have zero faith in that show, but there is one thing it's got going for it: it can't be any worse than the movie.

Also, finished Legend of Korra. First season was the best, and I think the series as a whole would have been better if they kept focusing on bender/non-bender tensions and sentiments, but that's just me. Season 4 was right behind it, with 2 and 3 (in that order) far, far behind. At least the bookends were great.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'd be disappointed and concerned if I ever had any hope or good expectations for this adaptation.

I had hope. The hope involved friends, booze, and a series just slightly better than the movie to make it So Bad It's Good.

But considering that 'broader appeal' is probably that brought us 'Artemis Fowl the Well Intentioned Surfer Kid' I'm probably just going to write it off. Not like the series is likely going to last compared to the cartoon anyway.

[dancrilis]

That the original creators of the show pulled out definitely isn't a good sign, especially since this show was billed as being a relatively-faithful live-action adaptation of the original.

Wonder what changes Netflix is planning on making to "appeal to a wider audience" or whatnot. Hopefully the massive uptick of appreciation for the original show since it came to Netflix will dissuade them from anything too radical.
It is possible that Netflix wants no changes and the guys wanted some (as they had already produced the show without changes once before).
i.e This show, but in live action - that is it that is the mandate, no scene changed, no dialogue changed, no nothing changed - just live action.
Which might be fairly boring if you had already made that show.


...but there is one thing it's got going for it: it can't be any worse than the movie.

Things can always get worse - worse is one of those things where you can always find new levels of it if you are willing to put in the effort and try.

[Celestia]

Things can always get worse - worse is one of those things where you can always find new levels of it if you are willing to put in the effort and try.
I mean, I think the only way the adaptation can get worse than the movie is if they kill off the entire cast in the first five minutes, and then the rest of the show is Ozai personally saying "F*** you" to each and every fan of the show by name. Like, he just pulls up a list on his phone and spends the next 30 episodes going "F*** you, Steve from Wichita. F*** you, Mary from Sheboygan."

On the other hand, that might still be more entertaining than the movie...

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean, I think the only way the adaptation can get worse than the movie is if they kill off the entire cast in the first five minutes, and then the rest of the show is Ozai personally saying "F*** you" to each and every fan of the show by name. Like, he just pulls up a list on his phone and spends the next 30 episodes going "F*** you, Steve from Wichita. F*** you, Mary from Sheboygan."

On the other hand, that might still be more entertaining than the movie...

No, worse than the movie would be the seven hour script, with the exact same actors, bit Iroh has been written out, and a Suki/Sokka/Yue cuddles scene added in.

[Morty]

I expect that the adaptation might well be very high-quality in terms of special effects, budget, costumes and acting, but that it will be devoid of anything that made the original what it was. And the first part isn't a guarantee. Didn't Netflix's Iron Fist have a notoriously crappy fight choreography despite the main character's power being super kung-fu?

[Dienekes]

So I now have zero faith in that show, but there is one thing it's got going for it: it can't be any worse than the movie.


Why would you challenge them like that?

[Rogar Demonblud]

I expect that the adaptation might well be very high-quality in terms of special effects, budget, costumes and acting, but that it will be devoid of anything that made the original what it was. And the first part isn't a guarantee. Didn't Netflix's Iron Fist have a notoriously crappy fight choreography despite the main character's power being super kung-fu?

That's because Finn Jones basically went from his previous series to Iron Fist without several months for conditioning, training and practice. You can see things improve during the series, as he starts to catch up. Basically, NetFlix screwed up by deciding to rush the release schedule.

[Peelee]

Why would you challenge them like that?

It's like challenging the world to land on the moon in less than a decade. Probably won't happen, but if it does, it'll be one hell of a spectacle.

[LibraryOgre]

But considering that 'broader appeal' is probably that brought us 'Artemis Fowl the Well Intentioned Surfer Kid' I'm probably just going to write it off. Not like the series is likely going to last compared to the cartoon anyway.

...glad I missed that, then.


I mean, I think the only way the adaptation can get worse than the movie is if they kill off the entire cast in the first five minutes, and then the rest of the show is Ozai personally saying "F*** you" to each and every fan of the show by name. Like, he just pulls up a list on his phone and spends the next 30 episodes going "F*** you, Steve from Wichita. F*** you, Mary from Sheboygan."

On the other hand, that might still be more entertaining than the movie...

"And a very special **** you to Mark Hall from San Antonio."

I would be so. goddamned. jazzed.

[LaZodiac]

A urther update: that information above was first "delivered" by a notorious sexual abuser who would know nothing about the actual real information. It's just a fake article for money.

[Ibrinar]

A urther update: that information above was first "delivered" by a notorious sexual abuser who would know nothing about the actual real information. It's just a fake article for money.

What information above?

[LaZodiac]

... okay so in my defense I'm an idiot, and thought people were talking about the article that got posted recently that allegedly detailed some of the reasons WHY the original creators backed out. My apologies.

[Ramza00]

And there is much rejoicing for now that Korra is on netflix people are starting to post Korra / JK Simmon memes on my twitter

[Man on Fire]

... okay so in my defense I'm an idiot, and thought people were talking about the article that got posted recently that allegedly detailed some of the reasons WHY the original creators backed out. My apologies.

Do you mean Fandomwire article (https://fandomwire.com/exclusive-why-avatar-the-last-airbenders-creators-really-left-netflix/)? I cannot find who is the author, it is credited to the fandowire staff. Admittingly it does lsit things that are plausible, Netflix wanting colorblind casting or make the show darker, edgier and sexier are popular theories why bryke bolted out of the live-action adaptation, alongside a theory it's because Netflix wants to make Zutara happen. And seeing how first photos of Netflix's The Watch series look like they turned that into gritty and sexy take on Pratchett's books, I could see them doing it to Avatar as well. Tbh seeing how much bullmanure Bryke took from netflix on korra and still didn't quit, it means it must been something serious that made them quit on Netflix show.

[LaZodiac]

Do you mean Fandomwire article (https://fandomwire.com/exclusive-why-avatar-the-last-airbenders-creators-really-left-netflix/)? I cannot find who is the author, it is credited to the fandowire staff. Admittingly it does lsit things that are plausible, Netflix wanting colorblind casting or make the show darker, edgier and sexier are popular theories why bryke bolted out of the live-action adaptation, alongside a theory it's because Netflix wants to make Zutara happen. And seeing how first photos of Netflix's The Watch series look like they turned that into gritty and sexy take on Pratchett's books, I could see them doing it to Avatar as well. Tbh seeing how much bullmanure Bryke took from netflix on korra and still didn't quit, it means it must been something serious that made them quit on Netflix show.

That is what I mean, and that article and video were made by Andy Signore, a former member of Screen Junkies who was excised for being a sexual harasser and such. FandomWire is also a known clickbait site that makes a lot of wild claims, inaccurate, and downright false claims.

[Ramza00]

Netflix said that you must make Zutara canon, and the show creators said no. Let the shipping wars commence!


https://youtu.be/oMlHLl_xvMY

[Lethologica]

stuff
Hol' up. They're making a Watch series? Now there's a bloody challenge. I thought Pratchett was unfilmable before Good Omens, and honestly, I mostly still do.

[Prime32]

On the matter of "broader appeal"...

Avatar was never that well-received by China or Japan, right? I could see a ton of changes being made if they're trying to capture those markets.

[Dienekes]

Netflix said that you must make Zutara canon, and the show creators said no. Let the shipping wars commence!


https://youtu.be/oMlHLl_xvMY

If that's true, then they may actually have found a way to make it worse than the movie. Throwing in an unnecessary love triangle and more focus on the romance of 12 year olds. Worse, this kind of bad isn't even the fun to watch kind of bad.

[Rynjin]

Hol' up. They're making a Watch series? Now there's a bloody challenge. I thought Pratchett was unfilmable before Good Omens, and honestly, I mostly still do.

There are several good live action Discworld adaptations. Hogfather is especially good.

The Watch series does not seem as though it will join their company.

[tyckspoon]

Hol' up. They're making a Watch series? Now there's a bloody challenge. I thought Pratchett was unfilmable before Good Omens, and honestly, I mostly still do.

Well, they're making a series with characters that share names with the Watch. The promo material released regarding it so far does not inspire confidence that the actual show will have much else in common with the theoretical source at all - it's looking like 'loosely inspired by' territory.

[LibraryOgre]

Don't mind me. Just crying while watching Iroh's tale in Tales of Ba Sing Se.

[Peelee]

Don't mind me. Just crying while watching Iroh's tale in Tales of Ba Sing Se.

Oh jeez that was the saddest.

Right up there with Rosie.

[druid91]

Oh jeez that was the saddest.

Right up there with Rosie.

Y'know. Jojo Rabbit was not a movie I thought was going to be good. But it was surprisingly good.

[Peelee]

Y'know. Jojo Rabbit was not a movie I thought was going to be good. But it was surprisingly good.

I keep trying to tell everyone!:smallwink:

[super dark33]

Korra was weird, it took 3 whole seasons for the protagonist to show up!

[Laughtrack]

I do wonder how much better it couldve been if nickolodeon was less horrible in dealing with them.


I love ATLA, but i have some criticisms to how it handles a few subjects. Same subjects pmuch fuel the entire Korra series and are why im disappointed with it.

[Pex]

Just started Korra. Two episodes in, so they're still introducing the show. I find myself not bothered the world is so modern in comparison to Avatar's fantasy mysticism. I suppose the overall story is more important to me than the world's mythology. I understand how someone who was really into the Bending mythology would be upset with what Legend of Korra does. It's definitely not the same show. I do like Avatar, but it doesn't have mythic status to me to be bothered by a change in atmosphere. I compare that to Star Trek where I do care such that I don't like and won't watch the new movies nor Picard nor Discovery. I like both brothers so far. Mako is supposed to be the obstructionist, but he's not really being a jerk at least so far. It's a good thing for me to like the main characters. Leave my dislike for the villains whom I want to root against.

It's an obvious move, but since it is a kids' show the irony of Korra struggling with Air Bending works. I wonder if we ever do find out about Zuko's mother, the Avatar cliffhanger mentioned in the first episode but interrupted. So far so good I'm liking the show. I hope I continue to do so.

[Lord Raziere]

It's an obvious move, but since it is a kids' show the irony of Korra struggling with Air Bending works. I wonder if we ever do find out about Zuko's mother, the Avatar cliffhanger mentioned in the first episode but interrupted.

Not in Korra. Side materials covered Zuko's mother before Korra was ever made.

[Rynjin]

The comics are really good, I would have loved to see them animated.

[Ramza00]

Avatar: The Last Airbender is now accessible for blind audiences on Netflix with audio descriptions... pass it on 😎

[Ramza00]

Listening to the podcast Republic City Dispatches which is doing a 5 year retrospective since the show is on Netflix.

Listening specifically to the Book 3: Change episode...

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/55-looking-back-at-book-three-change/id692774568?i=1000491230024

And in sum Korra did a Star Wars Sequel Trilogy as it should have been, and did it so much better. Yes there are cameos of the older cast but do not overdo them as fan service (for overdoing it will always disappoint), and it is also simultaneously show they are good people but flawed and thus subvert their hero status some what.

[LibraryOgre]

You know, everyone who complains about the tech advancement in Korra: Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man in ATLA season 3 has a cybernetic arm and leg. I mean, completely leaving aside the Northern Air temple, with dedicated inventors, and the war machines of the Fire Nation...

[Rynjin]

You know, everyone who complains about the tech advancement in Korra: Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man in ATLA season 3 has a cybernetic arm and leg.

They weren't cybernetic though, just simple metal prostheses. That's real world medieval tech.

[Rater202]

Still, the Fire Nation was already at the industrial revolution by the time Aang was thawed. With peace restored and the four nations cooperating, especially in the melting pot of Republic City, that tech is going to proliferate and adapt as different forms of innovation and different ideas are spread.

Honestly, the unrealistic part is that in seventy years they've only gotten to the late industrial revolution.

I imagine that now that the Airbendrs have returned that in a decade or two someone inventor is gonna realize that they can support firebender generated power with wind turbines

[uncool]

Still, the Fire Nation was already at the industrial revolution by the time Aang was thawed. With peace restored and the four nations cooperating, especially in the melting pot of Republic City, that tech is going to proliferate and adapt as different forms of innovation and different ideas are spread.

Honestly, the unrealistic part is that in seventy years they've only gotten to the late industrial revolution.

I think that depends on which bits you choose to set your timeline by. I think I'd put the original series in about the mid-1800s in terms of Fire Nation technology - matching up with early ironclad warships, behind the apparently mass-manufacture tanks, and far ahead of the weaponry (namely, the complete lack of firearms) and armor (though that makes sense with the lack of firearms). Korra matches reasonably well to the 1910s-1920s, with the proliferation of cars (the Model T became popular in the 10s), biplanes, electrical grid, entertainment radio, propaganda movies, etc. That's not far from 70 years.

Of course, almost all of the tech by which I measure the Fire Nation is its military technology, while much of the importance of technology in the real-world industrial revolution was its commercial applications, and iirc the Fire Nation is significantly less advanced for those.

[Rater202]

The iron nation did have mass-produced tanks though.They just didn't have guns.

Automobiles are the logical first application of that technology following demilitarization. Honestly, they should have had cars for a few decades by now.

[Ibrinar]

Still, the Fire Nation was already at the industrial revolution by the time Aang was thawed. With peace restored and the four nations cooperating, especially in the melting pot of Republic City, that tech is going to proliferate and adapt as different forms of innovation and different ideas are spread.

Honestly, the unrealistic part is that in seventy years they've only gotten to the late industrial revolution.

I imagine that now that the Airbendrs have returned that in a decade or two someone inventor is gonna realize that they can support firebender generated power with wind turbines

I am in favor of rock powered energy, there is a lot of potential energy in giant boulders!

[uncool]

The iron nation did have mass-produced tanks though.They just didn't have guns.
Yes - that's what I meant by "behind". Mass-produced tanks started late in WWI - near where I'm putting Korra, in fact.

Automobiles are the logical first application of that technology following demilitarization. Honestly, they should have had cars for a few decades by now.
Perhaps - although it's not hard to imagine an explanation that the problem wasn't making cars, but rather making them for individuals - and making them work without needing a dedicated firebender.

[Rater202]

The Firenation was alredy using Coal Boilers. Firebending straight into the Boiler seemed to be a backup plan.

there was even that prison ship that was powered entirely by coal with, IIRC, no actual benders on it other than the Earth Bender prisoners from that one town.

(Though I imagine that bending power was more common when Steam Power was first being discovered and large scale boilers weren't viable yet.)

It's simply a matter of finding an efficient enough fuel and minuting the technology. Twenty to thirty years if people are actively working on improving the boiler tech.

[Ramza00]

Still, the Fire Nation was already at the industrial revolution by the time Aang was thawed. With peace restored and the four nations cooperating, especially in the melting pot of Republic City, that tech is going to proliferate and adapt as different forms of innovation and different ideas are spread.

Honestly, the unrealistic part is that in seventy years they've only gotten to the late industrial revolution.

I imagine that now that the Airbendrs have returned that in a decade or two someone inventor is gonna realize that they can support firebender generated power with wind turbines

With tech there is often bottlenecks to prevent future techs. Thus what is the bottleneck on our Earth may not be the same bottleneck on Avatar land.

For example the wheel was in use for hundreds of years prior to the wheel and axle. To get an axle, a second wheel inside a first wheel and to get it as an energy saver not loser you need metal tools to get the friction coefficient just right. Tight but not too tight. While a wheel like taking an existing round tree, removing the bark, removing any excess knobs and such is easier with more basic tools. Thus the wheel and axle was not possible without advanced enough metallurgy to make it. Thus in our archaeology prior to recorded history (though some civilizations had some writing at the time but no recording events for a written history record) the first civilizations Of the wheel and axle spread far and ride in a few hundred years. That said they were quickly copied once their carts were copied and their tools traded or stolen. Soon we get the wheel and axle that was spoked and chariots were born. (Etc, Etc, Etc with history.)

Likewise the 1800s and 1900s history were times bottlenecked by chemistry, machine tools caused by replaceable parts from an assembly line, and lastly fuel. Being able to firebend, earthbend, and waterbend would greatly advance all of those bottlenecks but also make new tech possible. For example many machine techs need a friction coefficient where it is extremely small like two pipes inside of another and only a millimeter of separation. That is now possible with metal bending.

Likewise glass bending can this occur by the simultaneous cooperative bending of fire (heat), earth (silica in sand), and water (to further shape and cool)?

—————

Tech would be very different in the avatar verse. Likewise jobs would be different and thus society would be different.

It is likely some form of official or unofficial caste system would develop with certain jobs benders could only do (and new jobs possible with teams of benders from multiple elements) while other jobs being performed by non benders like commerce, art, raising of children, teaching, and so on.

If it was not on Nickelodeon but written in a young adult dystopic kind of way ... Amon would be leading a revolution of non benders due to economics and how economics shape non economic spheres like politics, aristocracy, military, etc. All these jobs done by bender and non bender alike are needed for society to function but bending gives people power to shift who gets the rewards and control of society. Why are all the military generals likely to be benders? Why is the royal family of the fire nation composed of entirely benders? Why is republic city have a committee of the different nations and the representatives were chosen because they were benders? Why is bending is what organizes the 4 nations prior to the one hundred year war?

Bending is not essential if Amon can take it away, benders and non benders should be equal and with new tech they can be equal and Amon will take away the bending of anyone who oppresses others and does not use their bending in the services of the greater other, the unifying other of fraternal bonds.

(See there are dozens of ways one could have written Korea from the existing world building. The tech, metaphysics, and existing lore does not lead to a single one direction but instead Korra could have been dozens of different stories.)

[uncool]

So the problem I had with the technology in Korra wasn't the amount of development, but its direction.

The technology generally felt like generic 1910s-1920s setting, as I described above. With the exclusion of Republic City's police equipment (namely, cables for metalbending) and the barely touched-on electrical grid, to my recollection we didn't see a single piece of semi-common engineering technology that was specifically based around bending. No, say, water-based timers (think hourglass, with water instead of sand, which starts when a waterbender stops holding the water up), no earth-based gear assemblies, no fire-based light projectors. Nearly every advance we did get essentially brought the setting to 1910s-1920s technology - radio, biplanes, early cars, and even that electrical grid. Those are some very quick examples, and I'm sure you guys could come up with some much better ones - especially by mixing benders.

This is actually two slightly different problems: the technology doesn't integrate the specific prequel world, and the technology is generic. The latter is a somewhat weaker complaint - Korra does have some unique technology (the "mini-mechas" from season 1, the spirit vines and huge mecha from season 4) - but I think they're connected. I suspect the writers wanted a "more modern" world and simply took from the real world, rather than trying to project forward.

One of the things I planned to do in my rewrite was to have better integration with bending - e.g. having the roads be made with at least waterbenders and earthbenders in mind, with cars being a distant third in the mind of city planners. This would play into the anti-bender sentiment, with nonbenders complaining that benders made it difficult to get anywhere by car, by leaving the roads a mess. I think it would also improve Korra's crimefighting scene at the start - she benefits from the preference for benders, tying her into the political fight directly.

[Ramza00]

So the problem I had with the technology in Korra wasn't the amount of development, but its direction.

The technology generally felt like generic 1910s-1920s setting, as I described above. With the exclusion of Republic City's police equipment (namely, cables for metalbending) and the barely touched-on electrical grid, to my recollection we didn't see a single piece of semi-common engineering technology that was specifically based around bending. No, say, water-based timers (think hourglass, with water instead of sand, which starts when a waterbender stops holding the water up), no earth-based gear assemblies, no fire-based light projectors. Nearly every advance we did get essentially brought the setting to 1910s-1920s technology - radio, biplanes, early cars, and even that electrical grid. Those are some very quick examples, and I'm sure you guys could come up with some much better ones - especially by mixing benders.

This is actually two slightly different problems: the technology doesn't integrate the specific prequel world, and the technology is generic. The latter is a somewhat weaker complaint - Korra does have some unique technology (the "mini-mechas" from season 1, the spirit vines and huge mecha from season 4) - but I think they're connected. I suspect the writers wanted a "more modern" world and simply took from the real world, rather than trying to project forward.

One of the things I planned to do in my rewrite was to have better integration with bending - e.g. having the roads be made with at least waterbenders and earthbenders in mind, with cars being a distant third in the mind of city planners. This would play into the anti-bender sentiment, with nonbenders complaining that benders made it difficult to get anywhere by car, by leaving the roads a mess. I think it would also improve Korra's crimefighting scene at the start - she benefits from the preference for benders, tying her into the political fight directly.

I understand and I sympathize. It sounds like you wanted Nick to hire a crazy art director during the planning stages to brainstorm a little and create a more "gonzo" world with a more fantastic type of technology. Something like this (links to a video about a certain style of blockbuster.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgBfH4puWAU

[Peelee]

You know, everyone who complains about the tech advancement in Korra: Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man in ATLA season 3 has a cybernetic arm and leg. I mean, completely leaving aside the Northern Air temple, with dedicated inventors, and the war machines of the Fire Nation...

I don't remember if I've said it on here, but Sparky Sparky Boom Boom man was by far the weakest and worst part of ATLA. Also, there is a marked difference in dirigibles and automata. I'm generally not a fan of steampunk, especially when it involves a fluid mix of low technological advancement with exceedingly high technology (eg. no computers, but robots that can walk on two legs perfectly).

That all being said, I do applaud them for trying to go a different route and industrialize the world, even if I didn't like it as much. I loved ATLA's aspect of showing civilizations attempting to replicate industrialized mechanisms through bending, such as earthbender transportation. It was more unique and Avatar-universe-centric.

Also, I agree with uncool.

[uncool]

I understand and I sympathize. It sounds like you wanted Nick to hire a crazy art director during the planning stages to brainstorm a little and create a more "gonzo" world with a more fantastic type of technology. Something like this (links to a video about a certain style of blockbuster.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgBfH4puWAU

Having watched the first three minutes...that's not what I was looking for. I'm not looking for spectacle - I'm looking for coherence.

What I was looking for was more a sense that the world is coherent and lived-in, where technology matches the powers people have. The original did this, for example, with the canals and locks of the North Pole, the imposing walls of Omashu and Ba Sing Se, the firebender-powered hot air balloons. Those weren't spectacle (or at least, not just spectacle) - they were just part of how things worked, as a natural result of what people could do.

eta some more examples: the sandsailers, Aang's staff, the wall of fire in the throne room, the doors that required airbending and firebending (though the last 3 aren't common; commonness is more specific to the changes an industrial revolution does).

eta2: Having watched more of that video, the complaint he says "gonzo" films address somewhat sounds like my second complaint; however, I think I'd focus more on my first complaint - that it doesn't feel like a world that has benders. Not in that benders don't appear - obviously they do - but the world doesn't feel like benders took part in shaping it. The feeling I'm thinking of is much less "Oh wow, that looks cool" and much more "You know, that makes sense".

[Pex]

I don't remember if I've said it on here, but Sparky Sparky Boom Boom man was by far the weakest and worst part of ATLA. Also, there is a marked difference in dirigibles and automata. I'm generally not a fan of steampunk, especially when it involves a fluid mix of low technological advancement with exceedingly high technology (eg. no computers, but robots that can walk on two legs perfectly).

That all being said, I do applaud them for trying to go a different route and industrialize the world, even if I didn't like it as much. I loved ATLA's aspect of showing civilizations attempting to replicate industrialized mechanisms through bending, such as earthbender transportation. It was more unique and Avatar-universe-centric.

Also, I agree with uncool.

It was done before. It was called The Flintstones.

Anyway, a few more episodes in. (I don't binge watch.) Just finished The Aftermath. I'm enjoying the show. I still get it those who are turned off by the technology being upset the Bender Universe is ruined, but it's not affecting me. Is it too obvious who the bad guy is under the mask? I can still be surprised there will be a Snape/Quirell switcheroo, but I had my guess pegged the first time we see him in his alleged non-mask persona. He's so coy it screams he's the bad guy.

[Peelee]

It was done before. It was called The Flintstones.
Huh. I must have missed the episode where they explained how anthropomorphic dinosaurs as paper-thin placeholders for modern technology, along with actual modern technology with minimal window dressing, was the same as innate yet rudimentary control over the classical elements. Silly me.

[uncool]

It was done before. It was called The Flintstones.
At least when it comes to what I'm suggesting, there's a huge difference between how I think a serious sequel series should handle tech and how the Flintstones did.

The Flintstones blatantly and deliberately imitated modern technology with ridiculous details. The thought process was clearly "I want this technology; how can I shove it into this world?" Which, as a note, is perfectly fine for episodic comedy that's not really trying to build a coherent world. What I'm talking about is more along the lines of "This is a problem that people would face, just like they did in our world; how would people in this universe address it?" The example Peelee gave - the earthbender "train" system - is a natural answer to the question of how a city would address the need for mass short-distance transportation. Similarities to modern trains are largely because they solve similar problems.

[Pex]

Huh. I must have missed the episode where they explained how anthropomorphic dinosaurs as paper-thin placeholders for modern technology, along with actual modern technology with minimal window dressing, was the same as innate yet rudimentary control over the classical elements. Silly me.

You say that like The Flintstones is an insult. They're not The It Thing now, but they are iconic. The point is it's not unheard of to simulate modern technology using whatever non-technological system a given fiction uses. Therefore it's not unusual for the Bending Universe to have done the same thing even if someone doesn't like that it was done in Korra because they prefer the more tranquil setting of Avatar.

[Peelee]

You say that like The Flintstones is an insult. They're not The It Thing now, but they are iconic. The point is it's not unheard of to simulate modern technology using whatever non-technological system a given fiction uses. Therefore it's not unusual for the Bending Universe to have done the same thing even if someone doesn't like that it was done in Korra because they prefer the more tranquil setting of Avatar.

I'm not saying it like the Flintstones is an insult, I'm pointing out the vast chasm that is the difference between the two despite your attempt to equate them. The Flintstones had dinosaurs that existed solely to serve as stand-ins for modern technology, such as a shower or work whistle. The Flintstones had fully-functioning telephones with minimal differences that were purely aesthetic. ATLA worked within the confines of the setting to create their own unique civilizations, not necessarily replicate ours. The chute system of Omashu is a good example of ATLA use of elemental bending to create a system dissimilar to anything any other people in their world has, as it only works with earthbending. The Air Nomads had kites they could use to fly and glide through the air. The Fire Nation had steam engines. Each people had different ways to create a unique civilization by utilizing their unique powers. That is radically different from The Flintstones, which had drive-in theaters but with stone tires instead of rubber.

[Pex]

Tomato tomahto

[Peelee]

Tomato tomahto

More like tomato potato.

[JadedDM]

Is it too obvious who the bad guy is under the mask? I can still be surprised there will be a Snape/Quirell switcheroo, but I had my guess pegged the first time we see him in his alleged non-mask persona. He's so coy it screams he's the bad guy.

You're talking about Amon, right? Man, I remember all the off-the-wall and bizarre fan theories at the time about who he was behind the mask.

Including Koh the Face Stealer and somehow--and don't ask me how this even works--Aang.

[Pex]

My bad guy is a bad guy but apparently not THE bad guy. For the first time the two of them were in the same scene together, as adversaries. It wasn't in a public area, so it couldn't be a decoy. There goes that theory. Maybe it was too obvious. That's a good thing. It shows the writers made an effort to produce quality within a children's show.

Nice to see the old gang grown up in the Vision, even if it was fan service.

. . .

Finished Book 1. Not that thrilled with the ending. Who Amon is feels forced. His identity was kept secret too long for the reveal. His true secret was fine to keep to the end, but who he is should have been revealed a few episodes earlier. If it's to be revealed so late it needed to be someone we knew and had time to get to know to have an impact. We know nothing about him until the end then it becomes "so what". As for Korra's recovery that was Deus Ex Machina. I'd have been fine if she was simply immune to Amon's power either because she was the Avatar or in fan service Aang was specifically given the power in his own Deus Ex Machina so the Avatar became immune there after.

Overall I did like the show as a whole and can accept the ending. Looking forward to Book 2.

. . .

A few episodes into Book 2 and I have the answer to my question in the original post. What would it be like if the villain was not Fire Nation. Now I get to see what troubles Water Nation can wrought, even if amongst themselves. This looks interesting.