what would batman do?

[deadseashoals]

The "how prepared are wizards" thread got my brain juices flowing on an idea. On internet D&D message boards, posters seem to assume that the wizard is some sort of magical spell slot machine, but having played a number of full casters at varying levels, I beg to differ. Oh, full casters are certainly the broken, but their spell slots are, well, actually valuable. In addition, occasionally, you actually don't have the correct spell prepared for the situation, and a scroll will not do the trick! Indeed, it is possible.

Thus, I would like to propose a simple mental exercise. You are Bruce Wayne, a 20th level (PHB race) wizard, with stats on 25 point buy, and standard wealth by level. Your companions are Tordek the Dwarven Fighter, Lidda the Halfling Rogue, and Jozan the Human Cleric of Pelor. They are all 20th level as well.

You have learned that there is an ancient crypt, at the heart of which is an artifact that will stop the rampaging hordes of demons set to invade the prime material plane tomorrow. Only this artifact can stop the demons, and your party alone is capable of retrieving it. This crypt may contain a number of magical traps. You know that the artifact itself is divided into four pieces, and that each piece has a guardian that dwells in this crypt, which is beholden to defend its piece to the death. You do not know what the guardians are; in fact, they are chosen randomly from the following:

* 1 pit fiend
* 1 balor
* 1 wyrm black dragon
* 1 18th level wizard lich
* 1 18th level vampire cleric
* the tarrasque
* 1 old red dragon
* 2 nightcrawlers
* 3 mariliths
* 4 cornugons
* 4 planetars
* 4 nightwalkers
* 4 greater stone golems

You may use divinations to find out what the guardians are, unless the guardian is capable of casting mind blank. However, the divinations come out of your daily spell slots. You may also cast spells with an experience point component. You start the day with 5000 experience above the amount required to level to 20, and you receive experience every time you defeat a guardian.

What would you prepare?

Edit: This is a core-only exercise.

[de-trick]

suicide pill and flare maybe light

seriously foresight and walk away, then cast phantom steed to get out of there

[mostlyharmful]

Why do divinations come out of your daily allotment?, with a truesight crystal ball, spellcasting for hire and probably a cohort if we're really going for be all you can be, plus longterm bindings on outsiders in your basement just so you can use their SLA in divination, the cleric on the team with their better choices of divination.

That being said there's no reason not to try scrying the hell out of the place with the rogue beforehand, with you on a demiplane where time moves at one hundreth speed.

[Skjaldbakka]

Why do divinations come out of your daily allotment?, with a truesight crystal ball, spellcasting for hire and probably a cohort if we're really going for be all you can be, plus longterm bindings on outsiders in your basement just so you can use their SLA in divination, the cleric on the team with their better choices of divination.

That being said there's no reason not to try scrying the hell out of the place with the rogue beforehand, with you on a demiplane where time moves at one hundreth speed.

Congratualtions, you have contributed nothing to the discussion. :smallannoyed:



@OP: You need to specify what sourcebooks. Since those are all MM monsters, I am assuming this is a core-only exercise?

[Rad]

Why do divinations come out of your daily allotment?, with a truesight crystal ball, spellcasting for hire and probably a cohort if we're really going for be all you can be, plus longterm bindings on outsiders in your basement just so you can use their SLA in divination, the cleric on the team with their better choices of divination.

That being said there's no reason not to try scrying the hell out of the place with the rogue beforehand, with you on a demiplane where time moves at one hundreth speed.

The point is that most of the time people talks about the much more powerful class variant called "Shroedinger's Wizard" i.e. for any problem there is something that the wizard could have done, an item that he might have, a spell that would work, but when you come to that in real play the chances that you really did/have/prepared it are sometimes pretty slim. The usual rebuttal is that then a wizard can summon his MMM and spend 8 hours sleeping in there but in most cases the DM will take care for that not to work; the more common thing being: "you do not have 8 hours", followed by "you do not know when they are coming" and "you can do that, but the 1,000,000 inhabitants city you're off to protect stays unprotected while you do so".

All in all it boils down to: how powerful is a Wizard in real game, intended as things you can do while really gaming, having to choose only a few feats among all the possible ones for a wizard, preparing only your spells as opposed to supposing that you have the exact spells that would work etc.

[mostlyharmful]

Congratualtions, you have contributed nothing to the discussion.

Of course, I haven't yet either.

I disagree, your own contribution is valuable (to me at least). It forces me to say what I prepare. First I prepare a means of aquireing intel on any prospective dungeon, BBEG or crisis long before it occurs, see truesight crystal.

Then armed with a full account of what's to come (possibly with a few holes for mindblank) I can address the specifics. To whit my spell selection.

Assuming we remain core, no ridiculous cheese is allowed, Batman is a generalist wizard, His level 20 int is 35 with a headband of +6 (base 16, +3 age, +5 levels, +5 Book) then his spell slots are,


Level 0 - 4
Level 1 - 7
Level 2 - 7
Level 3 - 7
Level 4 - 7
Level 5 - 6
Level 6 - 6
Level 7 - 6
Level 8 - 6
Level 9 - 5


Given this we have a choice dependant on his choic of magical gear and expendable assests such as wands and potions. But a selection that seems ok given most of the standerd protections have either been put into items or are accessable through outside casting before the dungeon crawl to save on slots for the wizard, would be

1- True strike 2, Grease 2, Ray of Enfeeblement 2, Unseen servant 1
2- Glitterdust 3, Shatter 2, Web 1, Blindness/Deafness 1
3- Ray of Exhaustion 3, Invisibility Sphere 1, Slow 2, Gaseous Form 1
4- Dimensional Anchor 1, Dimension Door 1, Enervaration 1, Confusion 1, Solid Fog 1, Invisibility Greater 1, Overland Flight 1
5- Magic Jar 1, Feeblemind 1, Teleport 2, Wall of Force 1, Wall of Stone 1
6- Contingency (Teleport) 1, Greater Dispel Magic 3, Acid Fog 1, Undeath to Death 1
7- Banishment 1 (more if the dungeon really is set out so most of the big monsters are outsiders), Limited Wish 2, Spell Turning 1, Forcecage 1, Vision 1
8- Mindblank 1, Dimensional Barrier 2, Greater Prying Eyes 1, Mass Charm Monster 1, Greater Teleport 1
9- Foresight 2, Time Stop 2, Dominate Monster 1


This is a list dependant on support from a cleric and a rogue and it's somewhat focussed around the list of possible CR 20 monsters the OP put together. It also depends on Batman having wands of low level attack and defense spells, wands of utility and scrolls of high level one off situational stuff, like Analyze Dweomer.

Batman in this instance doesn't have a particularly high Int, there are ways of boosting it beyound what's listed, he hasn't had any metamagic since different people like to apply dfferent things to it, he focusses more on Save Or spells than he should since he's entirely core and I've stayed away from the cheeseist of spells, such as the whole polymorph school.

[mostlyharmful]

The point is that most of the time people talks about the much more powerful class variant called "Shroedinger's Wizard" i.e. for any problem there is something that the wizard could have done, an item that he might have, a spell that would work, but when you come to that in real play the chances that you really did/have/prepared it are sometimes pretty slim. The usual rebuttal is that then a wizard can summon his MMM and spend 8 hours sleeping in there but in most cases the DM will take care for that not to work; the more common thing being: "you do not have 8 hours", followed by "you do not know when they are coming" and "you can do that, but the 1,000,000 inhabitants city you're off to protect stays unprotected while you do so".

All in all it boils down to: how powerful is a Wizard in real game, intended as things you can do while really gaming, having to choose only a few feats among all the possible ones for a wizard, preparing only your spells as opposed to supposing that you have the exact spells that would work etc.

Which I agree with, but my point is that divinations are a special case in this instance. With access to a Crystal scrying becomes pointless, and any wiz 20 should have one. Divinations are also best left to the cleric, since they have the best ones, if the wizard has to do all of them, and from memory without scrolls or items, then they will play a more defensive game.

Situational spells are the ones that you wouldn't normally prepare and wouldn't normally have an item to replicate them with. Neither of which applies to Scrying or Legend Lore, which would be the first thing a Wizard would throw at this dungeon.

Edit: Oops, double post. Sorry:smallredface:

[kemmotar]

Well...the reason wizards have scribe scroll is so they can scribe scrolls to be prepeared for anything they might meet...there is also a very nice item in the magic items compendium called infinite scrollcase(i think) plus the scroll you want pops out first...wands and rods in a wand bracelet(also in the magic items compendium) will account for any other spells you might need...Thus a wizards preparation doesn't only come from his spell slots...(that's why personally i don't think there is such a big difference between sorcerer and wizard at higher levels)...Both can have an insane amount of items preparing them for anything...

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You just repeatedly defended a 1.000.000 pop city from a rampaging demon army with the aid of many other high-level adventurers. The army was repelled but not defeated and the attack has been repeated every 24 hours. An artifact in a far-off crypt can defend the city but demons are scrying the city and not many guardians can leave it undefended or it will be overwhelmed. Your group is small enough and has the best estimated chance of bringing back the artifact. You must return before the next attack before the demon leaders can call too many of their demon minions and overwhelm the defenders.


The dungeon is protected by a Weirding Stone (LeoF, 200.000 gp cost). No scrying attempts, remote sensing and similar abilities and no bodily magical travel work within 6 miles of the stone except for that of the guardian creatures that are specifically protected from the artifact pieces they guard. The Weirding Stone is part of the artifact you want to assemble so grabbing it and leaving doesn't work. The Weirding stone is an important part of the artifact that will protect the 1.000.000 ppl city from demon attacks because it will prevent them from teleporting directly into it-this means that players cannot complain that dungeon difficulty has been increased-it is there for plot reasons.

[Skjaldbakka]

It seemed to me that the OP was not opposed to divination/teleport as a strategy, except of course against things with protectives against such.

[Selv]

I have nothing to add, except:
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[bugsysservant]

Selv... Will you...Marry me :smallredface:

[goat]

The traps aren't an issue, they can be easily found with a few low level summons, you've only got to evade, disable or destroy them then. A wand would be more than sufficient, and stops your Rogue getting nuked by a CR 20 Mechanical.
Magical traps top out at 34 for search and disable checks - your rogue should probably have maxed both if they're a dungeoneer - a +1 is likely, and taking 10/12 provides the rest. (It's obscenely high if you're level 10, but no issue at 20). A mechanical trap can theoretically be made as hard to find and disable as you like (according to the SRD at least, no books to hand) so running a celestial dog down a corridor is probably a good idea...

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A remotely activated trap with no save such as a BBEG pressing the button for the 100-ton ceiling to fall is a good idea for dungeons. :smalltongue: It can't be found with your rogue in advance or a minor summon.

A reactive trap with no save such as a wall of force supporting the 100 ton ceiling is even better-when the wizard destroys the wall of force to advance, the trap smashes him.

[deadseashoals]

Why do divinations come out of your daily allotment?, with a truesight crystal ball, spellcasting for hire and probably a cohort if we're really going for be all you can be, plus longterm bindings on outsiders in your basement just so you can use their SLA in divination, the cleric on the team with their better choices of divination.

That being said there's no reason not to try scrying the hell out of the place with the rogue beforehand, with you on a demiplane where time moves at one hundreth speed.

Because the impending doom is tomorrow, so you just have today to prepare spells and go in, face your four CR 20 encounters for the day, and do the quest. If you want to use purchase and use a crystal ball, feel free. However, a crystal ball in this situation isn't terribly useful - you can try to blind scry the guardians when they get a sizeable bonus to their already high Will saves against an item's saving throw DC.

Yes, this is core only for spell prep, magic items, and feat selection - I forgot to mention that.

Basically, the point of this thread is, as another poster pointed out, to showcase the difference between a real high-level wizard in real play as opposed to "Schroedinger's wizard". Few DMs railroad this hard, but you DO have to play on limited resources when you're in a real game.

[Goumindong]

Spell List
A Wizard need only prepare any spell once per level, since he is likly to be stacked to the gills with pearls of power of various spell levels.

After protective garments, magical storage, rods, and scrolls to go in your spellbook, pearls of power are probably the only thing you have to spend cash on.

[kemmotar]

I'd recommend some summons maybe lower than 9th level summons but ones that can work with the rest of the party?How many people would be in the rest of the party?Cleric, fighter/barbarian/meat shield, rogue? Also having an insane amount of scrolls...how about using a sphere of annihilation...?A moving disintegrate that uses no spell slots could be quite useful...a rod of force to set up a wall of force after you send it in so you and your party can stand back in safety while everything gets destroyed by the sphere and turns into dust:smallbiggrin:

Maybe the golems would survive but after everything else is dead should be easy to kill them...maybe using something to restrict their movement so they can't avoid the sphere...a gate to gate in something stronger than the enemy?

hmm...maybe you can use a gate to gate in lava from a river from the elemental plane of fire and a wall of force to protect yourself from the lava while everything else dies a slow fiery death...:smallbiggrin:

[Crow]

Are Sorcerers allowed to participate?

[OneWinged4ngel]

Some important questions:

1) What's the cosmology? The planes I can take advantage of seriously matter. And please don't just say "greyhawk" with no explanation, because I seriously have no idea what those planes do (does anyone ever play Greyhawk?)
2) Can I take advantage of the previous evening before embarking on an expedition to this crypt (or rather, just cast all the things I need that last more than 8 hours or all the information gathering spells, slip into my hyper-time chamber alternate plane, instantly become rested, and have all the new spells I want?).
3) Is POLYMORPH allowed? Are any spells not allowed?
4) Can I have a familiar?

I would rather enjoy beginning the adventure by using every manner of divination from my super secret batcave (specifically from a room that is full of traps and such like... say, an arbitrary number of castings of Explosive Runes, to take care of any counter-scry-and-die attacks). Then I cast all my full day spells and whatnot (which are numerous, due to my level). Then I become rested (whether nigh-instantly or the normal way), and scry'n'die the first hapless victim with my full, totally buffed party, and let Jozan, Lidda, and Regdar wail on them. And then of course, I have my own battery of firepower for the really nasty ones. I'd go into detail, but I think there needs to be a bit more clarification as to the table rules, here.

[bugsysservant]

I'd recommend some summons maybe lower than 9th level summons but ones that can work with the rest of the party?How many people would be in the rest of the party?Cleric, fighter/barbarian/meat shield, rogue? Also having an insane amount of scrolls...how about using a sphere of annihilation...?A moving disintegrate that uses no spell slots could be quite useful...a rod of force to set up a wall of force after you send it in so you and your party can stand back in safety while everything gets destroyed by the sphere and turns into dust:smallbiggrin:

Maybe the golems would survive but after everything else is dead should be easy to kill them...maybe using something to restrict their movement so they can't avoid the sphere...a gate to gate in something stronger than the enemy?

hmm...maybe you can use a gate to gate in lava from a river from the elemental plane of fire and a wall of force to protect yourself from the lava while everything else dies a slow fiery death...:smallbiggrin:

1. I'm pretty sure Artifacts aren't allowed. They intentionally break game balance and WBL.

2. Most of the things listed either have crazy DR, regeneration, immunity to fire, some form of teleport power, or all of them. Fire is a VERY weak weapon against CR 20 opponents.

[deadseashoals]

Are Sorcerers allowed to participate?

Sure, yes.


Some important questions:

1) What's the cosmology? The planes I can take advantage of seriously matter. And please don't just say "greyhawk" with no explanation, because I seriously have no idea what those planes do (does anyone ever play Greyhawk?)
2) Can I take advantage of the previous evening before embarking on an expedition to this crypt (or rather, just cast all the things I need that last more than 8 hours or all the information gathering spells, slip into my hyper-time chamber alternate plane, instantly become rested, and have all the new spells I want?).
3) Is POLYMORPH allowed? Are any spells not allowed?
4) Can I have a familiar?

I would rather enjoy beginning the adventure by using every manner of divination from my super secret batcave (specifically from a room that is full of traps and such like... say, an arbitrary number of castings of Explosive Runes, to take care of any counter-scry-and-die attacks). Then I cast all my full day spells and whatnot (which are numerous, due to my level). Then I become rested (whether nigh-instantly or the normal way), and scry'n'die the first hapless victim with my full, totally buffed party, and let Jozan, Lidda, and Regdar wail on them. And then of course, I have my own battery of firepower for the really nasty ones. I'd go into detail, but I think there needs to be a bit more clarification as to the table rules, here.

1) The default cosmology, as outlined in the DMG (aka The Great Wheel).
2) You have just woken up and received this information, which you know to be true. You can fill your spell slots at any time between now and the impending apocalypse, but only once each.
3) As the festering wound on D&D called polymorph and derivatives has been more or less disowned by WotC, please avoid polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange.
4) Yes.

As I said before, Scry and die is unlikely to work. You have no knowledge of the guardians, so they'd be saving at +10, and many of them have high spell resistance to boot.

[Kaelik]

You can fill your spell slots at any time between now and the impending apocalypse, but only once each.

Why? That's an arbitrary rule that makes absolutely no sense in your (already heavily railroaded) situation.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Why? That's an arbitrary rule that makes absolutely no sense in your (already heavily railroaded) situation.

I agree. You're asking what batman would do, but you're disallowing the stuff that Batman would do. Besides, Batman would be giving his nighttime buffs almost every day, as a matter of course (I mean, come on, they're FREE). The fact that he "only just now learned of impending apocalypse" would be fairly irrelevant. A Batman that isn't paranoid is a DEAD Batman, because at any given time a dozen genius intelligence archvillains are plotting his doom.

If you're going to make arbitrary restrictions that would never exist in a real game, how can you consider this representative of what you can do in a real game?

Also, I will name my familiar D ick Grayson. And he will be a Raven.

[The_Snark]

I agree. You're asking what batman would do, but you're disallowing the stuff that Batman would do. Besides, Batman would be giving his nighttime buffs almost every day, as a matter of course (I mean, come on, they're FREE). The fact that he "only just now learned of impending apocalypse" would be fairly irrelevant. A Batman that isn't paranoid is a DEAD Batman, because at any given time a dozen genius intelligence archvillains are plotting his doom.

Nighttime buffs don't work in this situation; you have to prepare them in the morning so you can cast them just before you rest... meaning they're only useful if you know you'll need everything you've got tomorrow and will have some downtime the day after. Those aren't the conditions of this situation.

Scrying crystal balls are utterly useless; Will save DC 16?

You could prepare and cast several divinations, then rest again for 8 hours and prepare spells, but that's a good 9+ hours off your deadline, which your party members/employers might not go along with. They'd at least want to try going in and spending the rest of your prepared spells first. In any case, the available divinations are unreliable and in many cases not all that informative...

-Contact Other Plane: Risky. And not terribly useful, besides; you only get one answer, and it may not be accurate.

-Greater Prying Eyes: Most of the listed monsters have True Seeing or blindsight, and most of them have some sort of area effect. Your prying eyes will likely not make it back to report.

-Discern Location: You need to have a target; no good.

-Vision: It would be helpful, but you don't know what to use the Vision on.

-Locate Creature: You'd need to be pretty close already, and you'd need to have a lot of it prepared, and by that time knowing what you're facing won't help you all that much, because you're already inside.

[Kaelik]

Nighttime buffs don't work in this situation; you have to prepare them in the morning so you can cast them just before you rest... meaning they're only useful if you know you'll need everything you've got tomorrow and will have some downtime the day after. Those aren't the conditions of this situation.

Actually since you cast the same buffs every time and they all have durations of 40+ hours you would definitely have them up. And you don't seem to understand the concept anyway. You, like many people, seem to be under the mistaken assumption that a Wizard can only memorize spells once a day. In fact, most "days" start with casting many divinations and several long term buffs, then resting for eight hours and preparing combat spells. I see no reason why this one should be any different. And this could just as easily occur 11 hours before you go to bed for the night anyway, resulting in you starting the day with all your buffs active with 30+ hours left of their duration.


-Contact Other Plane: Risky. And not terribly useful, besides; you only get one answer, and it may not be accurate.

Risk factor=0 for anything less then a Greater Deity. And why would you only get one answer?

[The_Snark]

Actually since you cast the same buffs every time and they all have durations of 40+ hours you would definitely have them up. And you don't seem to understand the concept anyway. You, like many people, seem to be under the mistaken assumption that a Wizard can only memorize spells once a day. In fact, most "days" start with casting many divinations and several long term buffs, then resting for eight hours and preparing combat spells. I see no reason why this one should be any different. And this could just as easily occur 11 hours before you go to bed for the night anyway, resulting in you starting the day with all your buffs active with 30+ hours left of their duration.

... You'd actually have your adventuring party sit around for all but 6 hours of the day, and not expect them to ditch you for a slightly less effective wizard who can manage to spend time? This only works in a vacuum. I can see doing this when you're right about to teleport into the dragon's lair, yes; I can't see a party putting up with it every day. Real considerations have to be taken into account, not simply what the stats can do.

As for the concept of night-time buffs, I do understand the concept. You cast long-lasting buff spells before 8 hours of rest; then you rest and prepare different spells without having to worry about the long-duration ones. You still, however, have to cast them again every 20 hours (or 40; I hadn't been taking Extended Spell into account), which means that they're still eating up spell slots every day (or possibly every other day). Unless you're spending 18 hours a day sleeping and preparing spells.


Risk factor=0 for anything less then a Greater Deity. And why would you only get one answer?

I was remembering a different spell when I mentioned only a single answer... but the risk factor is not 0; even the greater deity can still lie or make something up.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Actually since you cast the same buffs every time and they all have durations of 40+ hours you would definitely have them up. And you don't seem to understand the concept anyway. You, like many people, seem to be under the mistaken assumption that a Wizard can only memorize spells once a day. In fact, most "days" start with casting many divinations and several long term buffs, then resting for eight hours and preparing combat spells. I see no reason why this one should be any different. And this could just as easily occur 11 hours before you go to bed for the night anyway, resulting in you starting the day with all your buffs active with 30+ hours left of their duration.

Exactly. The idea that a wizard will NOT have buffs from the previous day when he's level 20 is an unreasonable expectation.


I have nothing to add, except:
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I am SO buying that shirt.

[deadseashoals]

Actually since you cast the same buffs every time and they all have durations of 40+ hours you would definitely have them up. And you don't seem to understand the concept anyway. You, like many people, seem to be under the mistaken assumption that a Wizard can only memorize spells once a day. In fact, most "days" start with casting many divinations and several long term buffs, then resting for eight hours and preparing combat spells. I see no reason why this one should be any different. And this could just as easily occur 11 hours before you go to bed for the night anyway, resulting in you starting the day with all your buffs active with 30+ hours left of their duration.



Risk factor=0 for anything less then a Greater Deity. And why would you only get one answer?

Yes, it is clearly possible to stagger your adventuring days to take advantage of buff times between 24 and 48 hours. And since the adventuring time window here is roughly 24 hours, it's only fair to allow any buff greater than 24 hours to be applicable in this situation. If you can justify it, use it - I never said anything otherwise.

Wizards DO prepare once a day (unless you want to leave open slots). It takes at most one hour, but you need to have had 8 hours of rest the night before. What's exactly is new here?

[deadseashoals]

Why? That's an arbitrary rule that makes absolutely no sense in your (already heavily railroaded) situation.

Why is this arbitrary? It is not possible to fill any particular spell slot more than once in a given day, without resorting to something like the bedroll in Complete Mage. You can fill it at any point, unlike a divine caster, but you cannot rest 8 hours, prepare, nova, rest 8 hours, and then reprepare all of your slots.

[Nowhere Girl]

I was remembering a different spell when I mentioned only a single answer... but the risk factor is not 0; even the greater deity can still lie or make something up.

Worse, the spell is one that relies on other beings and does not control them.

This is significant and important because no matter what that table under the spell description says, the very nature of the spell puts it in the same highly uncertain realm as such skills as Diplomacy.

Strictly per RAW, even aristocrats and experts can become like unto gods at high levels through the power of Diplomacy, which eventually cannot fail to convince a Hostile creature to cease being Hostile and, in time, turns everyone you meet into a Fanatic follower. Taken literally as the text presents it, the skill transcends itself and is no longer a mere skill but rather a superior kind of Dominate spell that lasts forever, costs no spell slots, and allows no save.

Now, find me 100 DMs, and let's see how many of those 100 let you do all of that, exactly as per RAW.

Uh-huh.

So getting back to that spell, it's not at all unreasonable for a DM who feels it's being abused, or who just happens to feel like it, to ignore the table and decide the being you contact is simply going to lie to you, period. Perhaps even maliciously, feeding you information that will put you in serious danger if you follow it.

It's not unreasonable because the spell involves NPCs who are not mind-controlled. Anytime you involve NPCs who aren't mind-controlled in some way, you introduce an inescapable uncertainty.

[mostlyharmful]

Why is this arbitrary? It is not possible to fill any particular spell slot more than once in a given day, without resorting to something like the bedroll in Complete Mage. You can fill it at any point, unlike a divine caster, but you cannot rest 8 hours, prepare, nova, rest 8 hours, and then reprepare all of your slots.

Actually You can. Spells cast in the last 8 hours count against your Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions. Clerics need to pray at a specific time of day, which means they can't refuel more than once a day. Wizards aren't dependant on any outside schedule, so they only need 8 hours rest. You could in theory cast three times a day if you went nova the instant you finished prepareing and then sat back down to nap. Be a rubbish day though.

The Daily Spell Allowance is written as it is I would imagine beacuse few if any adventuring parties would really want to sit around and wait for Gandalf to snooze in the middle of an adventure.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Actually You can. Spells cast in the last 8 hours count against your Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions. Clerics need to pray at a specific time of day, which means they can't refuel more than once a day. Wizards aren't dependant on any outside schedule, so they only need 8 hours rest. You could in theory cast three times a day if you went nova the instant you finished prepareing and then sat back down to nap. Be a rubbish day though.

The Daily Spell Allowance is written as it is I would imagine beacuse few if any adventuring parties would really want to sit around and wait for Gandalf to snooze in the middle of an adventure.

Perhaps more importantly, there are tricks to reduce that 8 hours to a much shorter period of time. Not the least of which being going to another plane.

[mostlyharmful]

There also are tricks to reduce that 8 hours to a very, very short period of time. Not the least of which being going to another plane.

Personally I'd label those Cheesius Maximus and hit them with an unreliable return rate, Ie when you start playing with time distorting planes you may take a couple of hours to come back into synch with us, you may take a few days and it's entirely up to me as the DM dependant on how much the story and the group need you back right now not on what you want. Otherwise there's just no way of limiting Batman wizards bouncing around Novaing anything of even remotely appropriate CR. Just a house rule but still nessecary if you're to have a game where 1 everyone else gets to play and 2 the DM and frankly the wizard get to have fun.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Personally I'd label those Cheesius Maximus and hit them with an unreliable return rate, Ie when you start playing with time distorting planes you may take a couple of hours to come back into synch with us, you may take a few days and it's entirely up to me as the DM dependant on how much the story and the group need you back right now not on what you want. Otherwise there's just no way of limiting Batman wizards bouncing around Novaing anything of even remotely appropriate CR. Just a house rule but still nessecary if you're to have a game where 1 everyone else gets to play and 2 the DM and frankly the wizard get to have fun.

Of course Plane Shift and the like are broken. But that's what Batman would do. Use his totally ridiculously effective tools. A core only wizard can get to the point that they go into every encounter fully loaded with 10+ rounds of buffing. Yes, it's utterly ridiculous. But that's just reality. There's a reason they're always saying the game ENDS at level 10 or so on the Gaming Den: Because the game is broken fifty different ways to Sunday by that point (even core only) that intelligent players have to actually purposely make bad decisions to keep themselves in check (or you have to have very extensive houseruling) because WotC didn't bother to get half-decent testers or designers and didn't bother to test like any smart developer does (according to every account I've heard about how they test the game vs my own experience with video game testing. Your job as a tester is to run every little miniscule part of the game 1000 times and break it every possible way you can imagine while the developers give you build after build until you can't really break it that well anymore. And then you get like 2 guys going on "intended path" testing, just to make sure everything works when you do everything exactly as the designers thought you would.). Which is kinda lame any way you look at it.

/angry rant

[mostlyharmful]

Of course Plane Shift and the like are broken. But that's what Batman would do. Use his totally ridiculously effective tools.

Plus this means CoDzilla gets the trick FOUR levels earlier than Batman and wipes the floor with any and everything such that no adventurer can stand against their might. :smallfrown: I try to limit the railroading as much as possible but once this trick gets taken out you may as well pack up the game and go play monopoly.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Plus this means CoDzilla gets the trick FOUR levels earlier than Batman and wipes the floor with any and everything such that no adventurer can stand against their might. :smallfrown: I try to limit the railroading as much as possible but once this trick gets taken out you may as well pack up the game and go play monopoly.

There is nothing wrong with houseruling (and indeed, it is in no way railroading), but there's something wrong when people come out denying that the game is broken because of ignorance (or even willful ignorance), or shouting that core's balanced and noncore's broken and anyone wanting to use a supplement is a dirty munchkin, or that there aren't problems with the system, or even saying that houseruling is somehow bad because you don't know as well as the designers because somehow their payroll makes them amazingly competent (yeah buddy, compare Complete Psionic vs Untapped Potential. Which is a better designed book? Oh right, the one made by guys working for pennies). :smallmad:

/angry rant 2

Identifying the problems with a system with relevance to your game and changing them to work better for your game is a *good* thing.

[mostlyharmful]

There is nothing wrong with houseruling (and indeed, it is in no way railroading), but there's something wrong when people come out denying that the game is broken because of ignorance (or even willful ignorance), or shouting that core's balanced and noncore's broken and anyone wanting to use a supplement is a dirty munchkin, or that there aren't problems with the system, or even saying that houseruling is somehow bad because you don't know as well as the designers because somehow their payroll makes them amazingly competent (yeah buddy, compare Complete Psionic vs Untapped Potential. Which is a better designed book? Oh right, the one made by guys working for pennies). :smallmad:

Identifying the problems with a system with relevance to your game and changing them to work better for your game is a *good* thing.

Agreed.

My point was just that in the first post Wiz can prepare spells after 8 hours of rest and don't need to wait for an arbitrarily defined space of time to elapse before they start resting again. I don't have any experiance in Psi in DnD THANK GOD, no-one I know owns any of it and all for the same reason, it just doesn't fit with the whole "swords and magic and medieval europe" feel.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Agreed.

My point was just that in the first post Wiz can prepare spells after 8 hours of rest and don't need to wait for an arbitrarily defined space of time to elapse before they start resting again. I don't have any experiance in Psi in DnD THANK GOD, no-one I know owns any of it and all for the same reason, it just doesn't fit with the whole "swords and magic and medieval europe" feel.

Hey, (3.5e) Psionics is way more balanced than magic. :smallannoyed:

And it totally does fit with the swords and magic medieval feel. In fact, you could totally replace magic with psionics and call psionics "magic" and it would work totally fine. Heck, a great deal of psionic abilities are *actually mimicked by spells.* Flavor is not intrinsically linked to rules by the power of superstition. Just because the RAW says that your disintegrate ray is GREEN doesn't mean that you couldn't say it was RED. Or that it was actually your sorceress grabbing a strand of the pure colors of reality and tweaking that little string leading from your opponent, unraveling his existence horrifically at the seams in a magnificent yet macabre lightshow. Seriously. Describe it however you want. It still does the exact same thing. There is no more inherent sci-fi flavor to psionic levitate than there is to magic levitate, because it's actually the same thing (except that the psionic version is weaker for non-Nomads).

See also, this link created for the express purpose of helping out people sufferring the same misconception you are: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=470229

Honestly, dispelling the whole paranoia about psionic flavor is as easy as changing the names of the abilities. That just goes to show that such opinions have no merit in substance, and only look skin deep at best. Incidentally, the exact same goes for Tome of Battle flavor (and as such, there is a similar thread for "truenaming Tome of Battle" to try and fight the crazy idea that people have that "the disintegrate ray must in fact be green for no reason" or "the maneuver must be Wuxia flavor for no reason")

[sophosbarbaros]

I am not sure if this really would be what a batman would do, but personally I would attempt to vie for more time, and duh dum dummmm split the party. Of course it would depend a little on what the other members would go for, but as the demons are constantly scrying the city (I assume we are aware of that as it was stated as a reason we need to hurry) I would attempt to misdirect them in someway. Illusion spells have lots of good options for attempting to fool diviners.

Just off the top of my head...

Encourage the scrying demons (using which ever spell is best applicable depending on any feats or focuses the wizard may have) to believe the heroes are abandoning the city and a large portion of the citizens are attempting to flee (not a good option, but something panicked citizenry are want to do) hopefully this would encourage the demons to assault the cavarans of undefended commoners in less that full strength (I believe the OPer said that the demon leaders were waiting for reinforcements)

The party splitting happens when the fighter/barb and the cleric ambush the hastily assaulting demons and the wiz joins the rogue in weaselying into the dungeon as weaselly as possible. With some good fortune (and low save rolls on the baddies parts) we might even come out victorious.

Of course, it is plans like these that have pretty much ensured my group hasn't played many characters up to level 20 :smallbiggrin:

[Dausuul]

As for the concept of night-time buffs, I do understand the concept. You cast long-lasting buff spells before 8 hours of rest; then you rest and prepare different spells without having to worry about the long-duration ones. You still, however, have to cast them again every 20 hours (or 40; I hadn't been taking Extended Spell into account), which means that they're still eating up spell slots every day (or possibly every other day). Unless you're spending 18 hours a day sleeping and preparing spells.

You understand the concept but not the purpose. The whole idea of night-time buffs is that until you buff for the night, you've got those spell slots available. If you're willing to give up tomorrow's buffs, you can use those slots for other things. Essentially, it gives the wizard an emergency reserve of spell slots; you can't use that reserve every day, but you have it if you need it.

So, for example, let's say my nightly buff is mind blank (8th-level spell, 24-hour duration). Every morning when I prep spells, I leave an 8th-level slot open. Every evening before bed, I study for 15 minutes and fill that slot with mind blank, then cast it and go to sleep.

The net effect of this is that every day, I have mind blank up and an 8th-level slot open. If I discover I really need that 8th-level slot today, I can fill it with another spell. This means I won't have mind blank up tomorrow (or, at least, that I'll have to sacrifice an extra slot for it), but in a sufficiently dire situation I'll take that risk. This situation is dire enough to qualify.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Actually You can. Spells cast in the last 8 hours count against your Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions. Clerics need to pray at a specific time of day, which means they can't refuel more than once a day. Wizards aren't dependant on any outside schedule, so they only need 8 hours rest. You could in theory cast three times a day if you went nova the instant you finished prepareing and then sat back down to nap. Be a rubbish day though.

The Daily Spell Allowance is written as it is I would imagine beacuse few if any adventuring parties would really want to sit around and wait for Gandalf to snooze in the middle of an adventure.

It is called a daily limit for a reason. A wizard only gains spell slots for the day, unlike NWN 2 or similar.

Also note that Divine spellcasters can indeed leave slots open after the daily prayer to fill them at a later time during the day.


A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once.

[mostlyharmful]

It is called a daily limit for a reason. A wizard only gains spell slots for the day, unlike NWN 2 or similar.

Also note that Divine spellcasters can indeed leave slots open after the daily prayer to fill them at a later time during the day.

As i said, looking through the rules in the SRD for preparing arcane spells it lists the requirements as 8 hours rest, with an extra hour every time they're forced to do something. It talks about spells for use that day and the first preparation of spells that day but nowhere does it say that a wizard can't rest and prepare again the same day. The requirements for resting your mind and preparing a new set of spells are pretty clear. If you want to add a house rule that it can only be done once a day thats fine. But by RAW they can be refilled during the dame day.

As I said before, I can only assume that its labeled as Daily allowance because it would be be boring for a group to hang around and wait for their wizard, not because the wizard is incapable of having an afternoon nap.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

As i said, looking through the rules in the SRD for preparing arcane spells it lists the requirements as 8 hours rest, with an extra hour every time they're forced to do something. It talks about spells for use that day and the first preparation of spells that day but nowhere does it say that a wizard can't rest and prepare again the same day. The requirements for resting your mind and preparing a new set of spells are pretty clear. If you want to add a house rule that it can only be done once a day thats fine. But by RAW they can be refilled during the dame day.

As I said before, I can only assume that its labeled as Daily allowance because it would be be boring for a group to hang around and wait for their wizard, not because the wizard is incapable of having an afternoon nap.

So when they limit abilities to 1/day we should just ignore it and assume that what they really meant that as long as we use a standard action to use it we can do it all day long as often as we like? :smallamused:


Table: Spells per Day


Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

(My emphasis)

If they wanted us to ignore the restriction on spell slots per day, they should have written under spell preparation that they did not really mean "per day", but per 8 hours of rest.

Ignoring the daily limit is the house rule here and will only result in wizards snoozing all day long.

[Dausuul]

So when they limit abilities to 1/day we should just ignore it and assume that what they really meant that as long as we use a standard action to use it we can do it all day long as often as we like? :smallamused:

(My emphasis)

If they wanted us to ignore the restriction on spell slots per day, they should have written under spell preparation that they did not really mean "per day", but per 8 hours of rest.

Ignoring the daily limit is the house rule here and will only result in wizards snoozing all day long.

Agreed. The SRD says "to prepare her daily spells, a wizard must rest." That means rest is a requirement for the preparation that can take place once a day. You can't just write off the word "daily" as meaningless fluff, particularly when it's supported by the text in the wizard's class description.

[deadseashoals]

Agreed. The SRD says "to prepare her daily spells, a wizard must rest." That means rest is a requirement for the preparation that can take place once a day. You can't just write off the word "daily" as meaningless fluff, particularly when it's supported by the text in the wizard's class description.

Right, what Dausuul and Silvanos already said. That is my reading of it, and though I cannot cite the source (maybe it was one of the D&D podcasts), I believe Wizards has said much the same.

Additionally, in the core (DMG) cosmology, there are no planes with an N:1 time ratio.