Quad 9s.

[Empyreal Dragon]

So, I've been tinkering around with it, trying to 1 up the previous record of triple 9s.

And while I had found some promising results using magic mantle ardent, ur-priest, sublime chord, and dragonspawn abomination +wyrm of war dragonwrought kobold. I just barely keep falling shy of the benchmarks.


So my challenge to you playground.

Using kobold casting tricks, beholder mage, what have you. Build me a quad 9.

Psionic, arcane, divine, martial maneuvers
Wanna replace one with shadow casting? Cool. The only requisite is to reach quad 9s

[Empyreal Dragon]

Reserved for rules as needed

Rule 1, must be a proper build, illithid savant does not count.

[Venger]

Illithid savant.

[Empyreal Dragon]

Well there's the first rule I guess.

[Troacctid]

So this is actually pretty easy. The simplest way is Druid 17/Wizard 17/Cleric 17/Psion 17, which gets you quad 9s starting at level 68. But of course more realistically you're going to want to add in Cerebremancer, Mystic Theurge, Psychic Theurge, and Arcane Hierophant, and maybe get some Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord in there while you're at it.

[ThanatosZero]

To credit Troacctid, it wasn't specified as a strict level 20 build.

However, to make quadtuple 9th level spells and powers possible, you would need Gestalt with softened up rules for PrCs and two ability scores with 19.

[Malphegor]

You can get something resembling it with a STP Erudite/Psychic Theurge for 3 I suppose... Albeit you’re learning spells as powers and never to 9th level until you hit post-20 levels, so it’s really 2 but with a 3rd buried in 1. 4 is tricky. Can’t think of an easy way unless via the shadowcraft mage’s usual silly feat chain to make a low level spell count as a 9th? Dunno if that works.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

All divines are available as arcanes through regular dragon spellcasting (cleric) and dragons with the Child of Eberron archetype (druid). Then just take levels in psion/thrallherd (psionic) and have a StP erudite as a thrall (all arcanes, including all the above "divine" spells) with psychic chirurgery to teach you what he learns. Note that this includes everything from wizard to bard spells, as well as oddball lists such as trapsmith.

Psion 10/thrallherd 10. Done.

Bonus points if you dip into an initiator class and take levels in the psionic version of jade phoenix mage, or if you dip into incarnate or totemist and go soul manifester. You only really need one level of thrallherd, after all.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You need 9 levels of Ur-Priest advancement, 9 levels of Beholder Mage advancement, 13 levels of Ardent advancement (with Practiced Manifester and 17 HD), and 17 levels of druid (or psion, shadowcaster, whatever) advancement to get quad 9ths. Since you're advancing at most two levels of casting with a single PrC level, the 48 levels of advancement required are a bit too high for a single non-gestalt build. You'll note that it's the 17 levels for druid are what makes it impossible; triple 9ths works because three rapid-progression classes are stacked together. If you allow 9th-level maneuvers as your fourth 9 and the reading of ToB PrC rules that allows any PrC to advance IL by one per level, you can advance more. For example:

Swordsage 1/Ardent 3/Beholder Mage 1/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Cerebremancer 5/Psychic Theurge 5/swordsage +1

That should just about do it, I think... obviously you need to buy double PAO to become a beholder at level 4, but that's within the 5400 WBL at that level (1200 gp per casting).

[flappeercraft]

I would like to put in one of the previous threads (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?542532-Quad-9ths-because-triple-9ths-was-too-easy) which covered this

and a build (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1404337) I made a couple years ago which without any class steal ability cheese (technically) meets the requirements by ECL 20

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragons of Eberron's wyrm of war sovereign archetype allows a dragon to exchange sorcerer spell slots for Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances of the same level, with one's sorcerer level counting as one's initiator level. So a wyrm of war Dragonwrought kobold sorcerer would have Tiger Claw maneuvers as though he were a full-on initiator.

[Troacctid]

All divines are available as arcanes through regular dragon spellcasting (cleric) and dragons with the Child of Eberron archetype (druid). Then just take levels in psion/thrallherd (psionic) and have a StP erudite as a thrall (all arcanes, including all the above "divine" spells) with psychic chirurgery to teach you what he learns. Note that this includes everything from wizard to bard spells, as well as oddball lists such as trapsmith.

Psion 10/thrallherd 10. Done.
Normally erudites can only get up to 8th-level spells as powers. How are you bypassing that limit? You didn't mention any way of doing so.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Normally erudites can only get up to 8th-level spells as powers. How are you bypassing that limit? You didn't mention any way of doing so.Sorry. The favored discipline ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) will do that.

[Troacctid]

Sorry. The favored discipline ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) will do that.
Favored discipline only applies to powers from the chosen discipline. You learn arcane spells as discipline powers, but "Arcane spells" isn't actually a discipline, so you can't choose them for favored discipline, even if your DM allows you to take both (which is somewhat controversial). Works fine for greater metamorphosis, but doesn't help with shapechange.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Favored discipline only applies to powers from the chosen discipline. You learn arcane spells as discipline powers, but "Arcane spells" isn't actually a discipline, so you can't choose them for favored discipline, even if your DM allows you to take both (which is somewhat controversial). Works fine for greater metamorphosis, but doesn't help with shapechange.Note that:


You choose a single discipline and all powers of that discipline, no matter what class list they are on, are considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning.
and

You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it

If you treat spells as discipline powers for learning, and you can learn discipline powers as though they were general powers, you would be able to assign spells to a discipline (because you treat them as discipline powers for learning) and then learn them as general powers (regardless of what class list they belong to).

[Troacctid]

Note that:


and


If you treat spells as discipline powers for learning, and you can learn discipline powers as though they were general powers, you would be able to assign spells to a discipline (because you treat them as discipline powers for learning) and then learn them as general powers (regardless of what class list they belong to).
How do you assign spells to a discipline? Is there some way of adding powers to a discipline that I'm unaware of? As far as I know, there are six disciplines in XPH, with CPs adding a couple new discipline powers, and that's it. Which one has arcane spells in it? Because if they aren't in the chosen discipline, favored discipline doesn't apply to them.

[Crichton]

How do you assign spells to a discipline? Is there some way of adding powers to a discipline that I'm unaware of? As far as I know, there are six disciplines in XPH, with CPs adding a couple new discipline powers, and that's it. Which one has arcane spells in it? Because if they aren't in the chosen discipline, favored discipline doesn't apply to them.

Only thing I could imagine someone thinking would be a misreading of the text entries like this one:


For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, metacreativity powers are equivalent to powers of the conjuration school


But that doesn't work, because it only applies for the purposes of P-M Transparency, and nothing anywhere in the P-M Transparency entry's text allows for it to work with StP or Favored Discipline.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How do you assign spells to a discipline? Is there some way of adding powers to a discipline that I'm unaware of? As far as I know, there are six disciplines in XPH, with CPs adding a couple new discipline powers, and that's it. Which one has arcane spells in it? Because if they aren't in the chosen discipline, favored discipline doesn't apply to them.If you learn spells as though they're discipline powers, and the way you learn discipline powers is dependent on what discipline they're on, then you must assign a discipline to them, else you can't learn them, which it's already been established you can.

The Psiotheurgist feat has equivalencies:


School (subschool).................................Discip line
Conjuration (healing)................................Psychomet abolism
Conjuration (teleportation)........................Psychoporta tion
Conjuration (all others).............................Metacreativity
Divination........................................ ........Clairsentience
Enchantment....................................... .....Telepathy
Evocation......................................... ........Psychokinesis
Illusion (shadow).......................................Met acreativity
Illusion (all others)....................................Telepat hy
Transmutation (targeting creatures only)......Psychometabolism

[Rebel7284]

Psychic Chirurgery from an Epic STP erutide gets any psion all spells including 9s.

[Troacctid]

If you learn spells as though they're discipline powers, and the way you learn discipline powers is dependent on what discipline they're on, then you must assign a discipline to them, else you can't learn them, which it's already been established you can.
This assertion isn't supported by the rules. You don't need to assign a discipline to them, you just need to know if it's in your favored discipline or not, yes or no. So, check your favored discipline. Is it listed in that discipline? No? Then it's not from your favored discipline.


The Psiotheurgist feat has equivalencies:
"Discipline powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#psionDisciplinePowers)" doesn't refer to any power of a particular school. It refers to powers that are exclusive to that school. Astral construct is a discipline power for metacreativity. Psionic grease is metacreativity, but not a discipline power.

If all powers with disciplines were discipline powers, erudites would be seriously hosed, as they would never be able to learn any powers of their highest level, because every power has a discipline. Want to learn crystal shard at level 2? Oops, it's a metacreativity power, so you can't. Time hop at level 5? Nope, psychoportation, gotta wait. Etc. It would be a huge nerf. Furthermore, nowhere in the CStP variant does it even say anything about spells gaining a discipline to replace their school. By RAW, an illusion spell becomes an illusion power, and an abjuration spell becomes an abjuration power.


Psychic Chirurgery from an Epic STP erutide gets any psion all spells including 9s.
Is there an epic psionic feat that lets you break the cap? I feel like there should be one, but I didn't find one last time I looked.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Is there an epic psionic feat that lets you break the cap? I feel like there should be one, but I didn't find one last time I looked.
I don't think there is. The only way I know to break the cap is pretty stupid: 3.0 psionics has a Psionic Heighten, and though that feat is likely no longer legal, the technically-updated-to-3.5 Mind Mage has a version of it. Not a very accessible trick.

[Troacctid]

I don't think there is. The only way I know to break the cap is pretty stupid: 3.0 psionics has a Psionic Heighten, and though that feat is likely no longer legal, the technically-updated-to-3.5 Mind Mage has a version of it. Not a very accessible trick.
It looks like that also maxes out at 9th level, which makes it a no-go. So even epic erudites can't learn 9th-level spells.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It looks like that also maxes out at 9th level, which makes it a no-go. So even epic erudites can't learn 9th-level spells.
So it does. Welp, that's all I had. Poor epic erudites :smalltongue:.

[InvisibleBison]

It looks like that also maxes out at 9th level, which makes it a no-go. So even epic erudites can't learn 9th-level spells.

I think they'd be able to if they took Epic Manifesting. The rules for epic powers are very sparse, but they do say "all the epic spell rules work for epic powers as well" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm), so they'd count as 10th level powers, just as epic spells count as 10th level spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellLevels).

[ThanatosZero]

It looks like that also maxes out at 9th level, which makes it a no-go. So even epic erudites can't learn 9th-level spells.

They still can according to the epic rules in the SRD.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm


Epic Psionic Feats

Psionic characters can acquire epic “psionically flavored” feats.
Some feats require so much translation that converted feats are provided.
Whenever a feat concerns conferring or altering a spell in some fashion, some translation must be done to use it with psionics. Sometimes this translation is as straightforward as changing a few names.
Translating epic metamagic feats to epic metapsionic feats requires that Spellcraft prerequisites be replaced with Psicraft.
It also requires a little math—instead of casting a spell at a higher level, a psionic character pays more power points.

For every spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level the metamagic feat requires, the metapsionic feat requires a character to pay a power point cost equal to its standard cost +2.
Likewise, when a feat allows a spellcaster to “pay” one less level to use a metamagic feat, the psionic version allows a character to pay 2 power points less for a given metapsionic feat.
A feat like Improved Power Capacity is no impossibility.

[Crake]

Ardent 5/Chameleon 7/Ardent 8

20th level character that can cast triple 9s by using the chameleon's floating bonus feat to bunny hop extra slot feats to 9th level divine and arcane spells, getting 9th level psionics from ardent and practised manifester, and then you can get 9th level martial maneuvers from the marital maneuver items in tome of battle, don't actually need to be an initiator to use them, you're just limited to using them 1/encounter if you lack an initiator class level.

If you could find a way to squeeze in an initiator level then that would fix the problem easily, but unfortunately I can't imagine a way to achieve that since you need all 7 levels of chameleon and 13 levels of ardent to get the 9s.

Alternate take edit: Reach 19th level as a wizard, create an ice assassin of yourself as a wizard, drain yourself to level 1, then recover your lost levels with restoration, this time leveling up as a Wizard 1/Cleric 18, have your ice assassin create another ice assassin of you in your new form, repeat with Wizard 1/Warblade 18, then finally level up as a Wizard 1/Stp Erudite 18, and proceed to cast fusion on yourself and your three ice assassins, and boom you now have the abilities of a 19th level wizard, an 18th level cleric, an 18th level warblade and an 18th stp erudite. Proceed to cast Astral Seed and immediately kill yourself, you will now reform with all those abilities permanently intact, though how they react with your level loss may result in you instead ending up with the abilities of all those classes at 17th level instead.

[Rebel7284]

Phaerimm, Hatchling (with LA buyoff) could help with this, but getting a high enough initiator level is proving to be difficult as there is no psionic/initiator progression.

[Empyreal Dragon]

I don't know quite how to get the exact build progression down, but a white dragonspawn wyrm of war kobold would have up to +8 initiator level. So if you take the initator level somewhere around 16th level it would kick you immediately to IL 17.

You need to pick up 8 levels of advancement on both ur-priest and sublime chord. Which tanks 10 total levels of the build. One of them has to be savage bard at least.

You need to pick up at least 5 levels of advancement for ardent and 4 levels of the class before that.


Something like savage bard2/ardent4/ur-priest 2/psychic theurge 2/sublime chord1/mystic theurge5/cerebremancer 3/swordsage 1? Would that work?"

[Esprit15]

Nobody mentioning Archivist to combine Druid and Cleric spell lists into one list?

[ThanatosZero]

I don't think there is. The only way I know to break the cap is pretty stupid: 3.0 psionics has a Psionic Heighten, and though that feat is likely no longer legal, the technically-updated-to-3.5 Mind Mage has a version of it. Not a very accessible trick.
Why exactly isn't it legal anymore?
Did RAW in a certain 3.5e book declare that it no longer exists?
However, any 3.0e material, which didn't receive a 3.5e update, is still legal to use.
But if a 3.5e version exists, then you have to use it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why exactly isn't it legal anymore?
Did RAW in a certain 3.5e book declare that it no longer exists?
However, any 3.0e material, which didn't receive a 3.5e update, is still legal to use.
But if a 3.5e version exists, then you have to use it.

Arguably, XPH on the whole supersedes the old psionics handbook on the whole, invalidating the whole book and everything in it. YMMV.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This assertion isn't supported by the rules. You don't need to assign a discipline to them, you just need to know if it's in your favored discipline or not, yes or no. So, check your favored discipline. Is it listed in that discipline? No? Then it's not from your favored discipline.

"Discipline powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#psionDisciplinePowers)" doesn't refer to any power of a particular school. It refers to powers that are exclusive to that school. Astral construct is a discipline power for metacreativity. Psionic grease is metacreativity, but not a discipline power.

If all powers with disciplines were discipline powers, erudites would be seriously hosed, as they would never be able to learn any powers of their highest level, because every power has a discipline. Want to learn crystal shard at level 2? Oops, it's a metacreativity power, so you can't. Time hop at level 5? Nope, psychoportation, gotta wait. Etc. It would be a huge nerf. Furthermore, nowhere in the CStP variant does it even say anything about spells gaining a discipline to replace their school. By RAW, an illusion spell becomes an illusion power, and an abjuration spell becomes an abjuration power.


Is there an epic psionic feat that lets you break the cap? I feel like there should be one, but I didn't find one last time I looked.Even if the above is the case, there are still ways to turn 9th level spells into 8th level spells, which would then be learnable by a 17th level erudite. For instance, the Sanctum Spell feat or the Forceful Magic feat when applied to a +0 metamagic feat. Any scroll crafted by a character with such a feat would be one level lower if one of those feats were applied (at least outside of that character's sanctum, if applicable).

[Troacctid]

Even if the above is the case, there are still ways to turn 9th level spells into 8th level spells, which would then be learnable by a 17th level erudite. For instance, the Sanctum Spell feat or the Forceful Magic feat when applied to a +0 metamagic feat. Any scroll crafted by a character with such a feat would be one level lower if one of those feats were applied (at least outside of that character's sanctum, if applicable).
I'm not aware of any RAW that allows you to learn spells with metamagic already applied to them, or even to learn spells from scrolls at all if you're not a spellbook-user. My understanding is that you learn the base spell, and then you have to apply your own metamagic from there; and then erudites have to learn their spells directly from the caster's mind. Do you have citations to the contrary?

[FauxKnee]

I'd be willing to allow a psionic adaptation of Improved Sigil (Krau) in my game. Since this effectively allows you to manifest 10th-level powers, and the learning restriction is based on the highest level you can manifest (as opposed to the highest level you know), an erudite with such a feat could learn all 9th-level powers.

Obviously this sort of exercise is reliant on a player-DM agreement (or exceptionally favorable readings of the magic mantle's "super transparency.") It's not RAW, but I don't think it's particularly unreasonable.

[Ruethgar]

Just double checked Savage Species. Wishing to be a different race grants the new natural abilities but does not remove the old ones. Wish to a Spellweaver, then to a Titanic Awakened Lizard/Cat/Rat/Toad. Awaken sets the ECL to 0, now take Half Dragon to qualify for War Wyrm and you have 17 levels to get Divine and Psionic.

Ardent 3(having taken Practiced Manifester)/Bloodline 3/Ur Priest 1(with Sanctum Spell)/Psychic Theurge 8 and you have 5 levels of whatever.

[Venger]

Just double checked Savage Species. Wishing to be a different race grants the new natural abilities but does not remove the old ones. Wish to a Spellweaver, then to a Titanic Awakened Lizard/Cat/Rat/Toad. Awaken sets the ECL to 0, now take Half Dragon to qualify for War Wyrm and you have 17 levels to get Divine and Psionic.

Ardent 3(having taken Practiced Manifester)/Bloodline 3/Ur Priest 1(with Sanctum Spell)/Psychic Theurge 8 and you have 5 levels of whatever.

Chronotyrn, solar, death slaad, or ethergaunt would grant similar abilities as needed

[shaikujin]

Dug up notes on a crazy build I tried some time back.

Warblade 1/SwordSage 1/Crusader 1/Ardent 1/Cleric 1/Wiz 1/Binder 1/Knight of Sacred Seal 1/Tenebrous Apostate 1/Anima Mage 1/Cerebremancer 1/Master of Nine 1/Shadowcaster 1/Noctumancer 7

Gives:
1) Warblade 9s
2) Swordsage 9s (can include Arcane Swordsage)
3) Crusader 9s
4) Ardent 9s
5) Cleric 9s
6) Wizard 9s
7) Binder 8s (EBL is 17)
8) Shadowcaster 9s
9) Sorceror 9s
10) Wyrm of War Initiator 9s
11) All Incarnum souldmelds


Can't remember the details, but requires DW Kobold, Wyrm of War, White dragonspawn (and maybe dragonspawn abomination), Bloodlines, Practiced Manifester, Orange ioun stone, and DCFS of a couple of special Ardent Mantles for extra feats, Heighten + Earth Spell cheese.


Edit: Ok, I think the important part is Bloodlines. Interpretation that Bloodline levels are added to each class to determine Initiator Level/ML/EBL. So taking 1 lvl of cleric counts as 4 levels of cleric to determine IL. Ended with a build with as many lvl 1 classes as required. Boosts EBL and ML the same way.

[Ruethgar]

Can't remember the details, but requires DW Kobold, Wyrm of War, White dragonspawn (and maybe dragonspawn abomination)

Kobolds are required to take Dragonspawn Abomination if they are Dragonspawn at all.

[CIDE]

Chronotyrn, solar, death slaad, or ethergaunt would grant similar abilities as needed

If this is what we're doing then Elder Brain (Psionic) and Phaerim also come to mind. Sure, you're stuck with Telepath stuff and Sorc casting but at this point it's not really going to matter.

[Psyren]

It looks like that also maxes out at 9th level, which makes it a no-go. So even epic erudites can't learn 9th-level spells.

This actually isn't correct, Erudites have two ways to do this. The easiest way is being taught them by another manifester who knows the discipline powers you want + Psychic Chirurgery; this method works even if the Erudite is not epic. But even if you don't have access to such a manifester an epic erudite can still learn them all on his own as follows:


Psionic characters take the Epic Manifestation feat, which works just like the Epic Spellcasting feat.


Epic Spell Levels

Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.

Combining these two quotes:

Epic Spells count as 10th level spells whenever spell level is important.
Epic Manifestation works just like Epic Spellcasting.
Therefore Epic Powers count at 10th level powers whenever power level is important.

Ergo, an Epic Erudite with at least one epic power consider their highest power level to be 10th - which means they can now learn 9th-level discipline powers. This technique requires the Erudite to be epic, but can be done fully solo.

[shaikujin]

Kobolds are required to take Dragonspawn Abomination if they are Dragonspawn at all.

Yes, I think I must have included the additional sor casting from the Dragonspawn Abomination template. It's +1 LA for potentially +6 levels of sorc casting.



The SQ part of that template requires the character to roll twice on the mutation table.
The Race Specific part gains 1 more mutation table roll if the base race is not of the 4 or 5 races mentioned.

Getting a % result of 00 on the table allows character to roll twice more (but ignore further rolls of 00).

So that's a max of 6 mutations, Each of them can that mutation that grants +1 to sor levels.

[shaikujin]

Actually, with Heighten, Earth Spell, Extra Slot cheese, plus DCFS, we can get a vigintuple 9s. (ie 20 9s).

Just take 20 different level 1 full casters.



Need a lot of trips to the Otyugh Hole though.
Or DCFS cheese those feats that grant additional bonus feats. Don Mantle (Conflict Mantle) and Planar Touchstone:Catalogues of Enlightenment (War domain) comes to mind.

[Tvtyrant]

Psions can do it I think.

Fission, Psychic Reformation on the duplicate, spells ends to gain the new levels, repeat.