Alert vs. Invisible Enemy in Surprise Round

[SyllinTheWizard]

I’m running a game where the PCs are fighting their way through a stronghold full of mages, and I’m trying to anticipate an awkward moment rules-wise.

The head mage is tracking the party’s movements with Arcane Eye and setting up a trap for them. While under the benefits of Greater Invisibility (cast by another mage), he’s going to wait for the party at a junction in the stronghold where he’ll cast Wall of Force to split the party, laugh at them and announce how they’re going to die, then run off and have the door barred behind him as his minions swarm in to kill the party.

One of the party members is a Thief with the Alert feat, and I can imagine him wanting to intercept the head mage before he can slink off. Ordinarily, I’d say they were surprised since they have no way to detect the invisible enemy while he’s not moving, but Alert makes him immune to being surprised. Theoretically, that would mean he and the head mage would have to roll initiative to see who acts first. But the thief would have no real actions to take before the head mage makes his presence known, and once he does, I would imagine he gets to take his full turn all at once, action and movement.

How should I handle this? Does the thief get a shot at intercepting the head mage, or does my villain get away with concentration intact?

[Dork_Forge]

RAW the mage still needs to perform a stealth check (with advantage for being invisible), he doesn't automatically become hidden. Even when the party is surprised everyone still needs to roll initiative anyway, surprise just means that you can't do anything for the first round of combat. So the Thief would be able to act normally and would probably beat out the mage (high Dex + Alert bonus makes it decently likely).

[JackPhoenix]

RAW the mage still needs to perform a stealth check (with advantage for being invisible), he doesn't automatically become hidden. Even when the party is surprised everyone still needs to roll initiative anyway, surprise just means that you can't do anything for the first round of combat. So the Thief would be able to act normally and would probably beat out the mage (high Dex + Alert bonus makes it decently likely).

Being invisible does not give you advantage on Stealth. It just allows you to attempt to hide without other source of obscurement.

The wizard needs to make Dex (Stealth) check as normal. Any character whose passive Perception isn't higher than the mage's check result is surprised, except the rogue. Initiative gets rolled as normal for everyone involved, surprise or not.

What happens then depends on the initiative. If the non-surprised characters act first, they know the mage is there, and even know his position, even if they can't see him. They can do whatever they want before he gets to act, including readying action. If the mage has highest initiative, he'll get to do whatever he wants on his turn, as normal.

[Dork_Forge]

Being invisible does not give you advantage on Stealth. It just allows you to attempt to hide without other source of obscurement.

The wizard needs to make Dex (Stealth) check as normal. Any character whose passive Perception isn't higher than the mage's check result is surprised, except the rogue. Initiative gets rolled as normal for everyone involved, surprise or not.

What happens then depends on the initiative. If the non-surprised characters act first, they know the mage is there, and even know his position, even if they can't see him. They can do whatever they want before he gets to act, including readying action. If the mage has highest initiative, he'll get to do whatever he wants on his turn, as normal.

Thanks for the correction, got muddled with table rules!

[SyllinTheWizard]

Being invisible does not give you advantage on Stealth. It just allows you to attempt to hide without other source of obscurement.

The wizard needs to make Dex (Stealth) check as normal. Any character whose passive Perception isn't higher than the mage's check result is surprised, except the rogue. Initiative gets rolled as normal for everyone involved, surprise or not.

What happens then depends on the initiative. If the non-surprised characters act first, they know the mage is there, and even know his position, even if they can't see him. They can do whatever they want before he gets to act, including readying action. If the mage has highest initiative, he'll get to do whatever he wants on his turn, as normal.

Without advantage, the mage is likely to fail his stealth check. So how do I describe that to the party? “You hear the noise of someone standing exactly 20 feet forward and 5 feet to the right” doesn’t really seem to make sense.

As my head mage is preparing for this setup, any tips on steps he can make to actually pull it off instead of losing to the party’s better skills? He’s studying them with Arcane Eye and trying to find a way to counter them specifically.

If the room were filled with visible enemies, would it make sense for that to grant advantage to the mage’s stealth check? I can’t imagine people picking up on the rustling of robes of a mage standing behind a group of half a dozen skeletons.

[SyllinTheWizard]

Another thing, looking at conditions and the environment sections in the PHB: invisibility means you’re heavily obscured. Heavily obscured means creatures trying to see you are effectively blinded. Blinded makes you automatically fail ability checks that rely on sight. Wouldn’t detecting a creature that is standing still rely on sight (unless you have keen smelling, e.g. the ranger’s panther companion)? And doesn’t that mean the party is functionally unable to detect the mage until he acts, making all of them unaware of him and all except the Thief surprised?

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conditions#content

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/The%20Environment#toc_3

[Cry Havoc]

Ordinarily, I’d say they were surprised since they have no way to detect the invisible enemy while he’s not moving,

You're ruling wrong. The Perception skill covers this situation (detecting unseen creatures who are trying not to make any noise).

Unless you intend on allowing Rogues to stand behind a pillar or other cover or obscurement, and automatically pass Stealth checks to Hide by simply announcing 'i stand still' of course.

What should happen is the (invisible) Wizard is detected unless he defeats the PCs passive Perception scores with a Stealth check.



but Alert makes him immune to being surprised. Theoretically, that would mean he and the head mage would have to roll initiative to see who acts first.

No, it goes like this:

1) Dermine who is surprised. This could be no-one, it could be someone.
2) Roll initiative for everyone (even surprised PCs).
3) In initiative order, everyone takes turns. Surprised creatures cannot act or move on their turns, and cannot take reactions until after their turn ends.

There is no such thing as a surprise round, and everyone always rolls initiative before anyone acts.

Resolving your scenario:

Your Wizard makes a Stealth check to Hide from the player characters. Seeing as he's totally unseeable, and has had time to prepare (and has specifically been watching the PCs, knowing how they operate, and knowing exactly when they're going to arrive), give him advantage on the check.

When he triggers combat (or if a PC notices him), immediately say this to all the PCs:

'From the thin air around you, you hear the sounds of arcane language and eldritch words of power being murmured as the air around you charges with magic. Roll initiative'


The above is vital. You have now explained to the PCs why they are rolling initiative, and set the scene for the encounter.

Now take turns in initiative order. For any PC that:

a) knows where the Wizard is (the Wizard flubbed his Stealth check vs that PC), and
b) acts before the Wizard, and
c) is not surprised,

that PC has a chance to foil the Wizard before the spell goes off.

[heavyfuel]

Being invisible does not give you advantage on Stealth. It just allows you to attempt to hide without other source of obscurement.

The annoyingly vague rules for stealth don't actually say this. It's entirely up to the DM to adjudicate (dis)advantage.

A creature that literally cannot be seen probably has advantage over a creature that's hiding behind a chair.


Another thing, looking at conditions and the environment sections in the PHB: invisibility means you’re heavily obscured. Heavily obscured means creatures trying to see you are effectively blinded. Blinded makes you automatically fail ability checks that rely on sight. Wouldn’t detecting a creature that is standing still rely on sight (unless you have keen smelling, e.g. the ranger’s panther companion)? And doesn’t that mean the party is functionally unable to detect the mage until he acts, making all of them unaware of him and all except the Thief surprised?

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conditions#content

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/The%20Environment#toc_3

Indeed, they automatically fail checks based on sight, but Perception involves more than sight. You can hear a creature's breathing, smell its scent, or notice how the dust is behaving oddly in that region of the room - almost as if there was someone invisibily waiting there. And you can definitely perceive someone starting to cast a spell.

Granting the Wizard advantage because he can't be seen is probably best.

As for your initial question, I personally hate the rules for surprise in 5e where everyone has some sixth sense and rolls initiative and Stealth is basically useless, but if you choose to abide to them, then the Rogue just acts as normal, as does any character whose (passive) perception beats the Wizard's stealth.

Personally, I houserule the rules from previous editions with a "surprise round", where only those aware of threats act. Having the Alert feat lets you act in the surprise round regardless of your perception check result.

[Cry Havoc]

Without advantage, the mage is likely to fail his stealth check. So how do I describe that to the party? “You hear the noise of someone standing exactly 20 feet forward and 5 feet to the right” doesn’t really seem to make sense.

''You hear the sound of arcane muttering coming from somewhere around you, as the air around you charges with magic. Roll initiative.''

That's how you describe it. To everyone. Surprised or otherwise. If they made their Perception checks or failed them. It resolves the 'determine surprise' bit of step A of combat round sequencing, and also (as an added bonus) is the crossover between narrative time and combat sequencing (and it lets the PCs know why on earth you've called for initiative).

PCs that noticed the Mage (he messed up his Stealth check against their passive perception), are not surprised on round 1 (and neither is the Rogue due to Alert) and can act normally, but only those PCs that the mage failed to Hide from know where he is when their turn starts.

And yeah. Give the mage advantage. He's literally been observing the PCs and attacking from a prepared ambush spot. Thats advantage to his Stealth check for sure.

[Strigon]

Without advantage, the mage is likely to fail his stealth check. So how do I describe that to the party? “You hear the noise of someone standing exactly 20 feet forward and 5 feet to the right” doesn’t really seem to make sense.

As my head mage is preparing for this setup, any tips on steps he can make to actually pull it off instead of losing to the party’s better skills? He’s studying them with Arcane Eye and trying to find a way to counter them specifically.

If the room were filled with visible enemies, would it make sense for that to grant advantage to the mage’s stealth check? I can’t imagine people picking up on the rustling of robes of a mage standing behind a group of half a dozen skeletons.

You'd say the party hears someone breathing heavily, as though from anticipation. Or that they hear him shuffling from foot to foot in boredom. Or he coughs or sneezes. Or any one of a thousand noises people just make sometimes that you could hear in an otherwise silent dungeon.

You're the DM. If you don't want the players to spot him (and the players don't do anything to spot him,) you can rule they don't spot him. You can simply say he rolled well on stealth if the party challenges you on it.
If you want to keep it RAW, though, there are ways. Unless the players specifically go looking around, you only have to beat their highest Passive Perception, not each party member rolling individually. There's pass without trace for a +10 bonus, and likely other spells. Silence would also work, though it makes spellcasting difficult.

Ultimately, though, you're the ultimate authority on the rules. If you think it makes sense for visible enemies to grant advantage on the stealth check, that's what happens. If you decide there's no logical way for the party to know the mage is there, they don't know. The game relies on the DM to make rulings, not just to copy and paste rules and monsters into the shape of a plot.

[Cry Havoc]

I personally hate the rules for surprise in 5e where everyone has some sixth sense and rolls initiative and Stealth is basically useless, but if you choose to abide to them, then the Rogue just acts as normal, as does any character whose (passive) perception beats the Wizard's stealth.

Personally, I houserule the rules from previous editions with a "surprise round", where only those aware of threats act. .

In the core 5E Rules, only those aware of threats can act. Either aware of those threats via the Alert feat, or via the ambusher flubbing their Stealth check and being a little too obvious.

Your houserule is unnecessary.

[heavyfuel]

In the core 5E Rules, only those aware of threats can act. Either aware of those threats via the Alert feat, or via the ambusher flubbing their Stealth check and being a little too obvious.

Your houserule is unnecessary.

I actually started a thread a while ago because I had problems with the RAW.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611909-Need-help-understanding-Surprise-rules

It's been a while, but it wouldn't be Necromancy to take this discussion there if you prefer.

[Cry Havoc]

I actually started a thread a while ago because I had problems with the RAW.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611909-Need-help-understanding-Surprise-rules

It's been a while, but it wouldn't be Necromancy to take this discussion there if you prefer.

Yeah I get it, but there are some incorrect assumptions about the RAW in that thread.

Again; if you start combat unaware of at least 1 hostile creature, you're surprised and cant act or move on turn 1, or take reactions until that turn ends (barring the Alert feat, which makes you quick enough to act in response to the threat, even if you cant pinpoint the enemy).

Why is your houserule required?

[heavyfuel]

Yeah I get it, but there are some incorrect assumptions about the RAW in that thread.

Again; if you start combat unaware of at least 1 hostile creature, you're surprised and cant act or move on turn 1, or take reactions until that turn ends (barring the Alert feat, which makes you quick enough to act in response to the threat, even if you cant pinpoint the enemy).

Why is your houserule required?

You concerns were all adressed in the thread at some point or another. But I won't have this discussion here and needlessly derail this thread.

[BurgerBeast]

There are a few misconceptions that are spread around this forum like wildfire, and the idea that noticing an invisible creature standing still in the middle of a hall is a straight Stealth vs Perception check is one of them. There is zero justification for this in the RAW.

People will quote all sorts of rules that they think connect the rules in this way. They are wrong. The quotes are generally correct but their interpretation is inevitably flawed.

Never in a million years would it be a check at my table. The DM determines the conditions for surprise and the DM decides when a check is necessary.

I apply the effects of invisibility equally to the party or to enemies.

As to the question of how to resolve the particular situation involving an Alert PC:

1. The event that “triggers” the transition from exploration to combat is the casting of wall of force, which has a verbal component and will be heard by the whole party. The wizard is not detectable before he casts the spell, so nobody notices the wizard until then.

2. The DM determines who is surprised. The whole party is surprised. (Obviously the alert PC is not)

3. If the alert PC wins initiative, then I would narrate the voice of the wizard casting the verbal components as though he is starting to cast wall of force, and the PC gets his turn before the wizard. Note that there are problems with this approach, generally, but in my opinion it is the “least of evils” so to speak.

[edit: so, the alert PC gets a regular turn. If he wants to attack, he has to try to attack an unseen enemy without knowing the enemy’s location. He could guess a square and attack with disadvantage, or he could do something else. I would allow a rogue to use the dash action to move around the area where he thinks the wizard is, hoping to bump into him and thereby determine his location. If a fighter had action surge, I would allow the use of one action to try to locate the wizard, at disadvantage against the wizard’s Stealth check. Then he could use his move and second action to attack that space with disadvantage.]

I hope this helps.

[JackPhoenix]

The annoyingly vague rules for stealth don't actually say this. It's entirely up to the DM to adjudicate (dis)advantage.

A creature that literally cannot be seen probably has advantage over a creature that's hiding behind a chair.

The rather clear description of invisible condition actually say what it does: it makes any vision-based Perception check automatically fail. It does absolutely nothing to Perception check based on hearing, smell or other senses. The stealth rules also mention that being invisible allows you to hide, with no mention of advantage for being invisible.

The GM can make whatever ruling he wants, that's his job, but considering not being seen is a requirement for being able to hide in the first place (ignoring exceptions that allow hiding when just lightly obscured), everyone would get advantage automatically, which clearly isn't the case.


People will quote all sorts of rules that they think connect the rules in this way. They are wrong. The quotes are generally correct but their interpretation is inevitably flawed.

Ah, the irony....

[BurgerBeast]

The rather clear description of invisible condition actually say what it does: it makes any vision-based Perception check automatically fail. It does absolutely nothing to Perception check based on hearing, smell or other senses. The stealth rules also mention that being invisible allows you to hide, with no mention of advantage for being invisible.

The GM can make whatever ruling he wants, that's his job, but considering not being seen is a requirement for being able to hide in the first place (ignoring exceptions that allow hiding when just lightly obscured), everyone would get advantage automatically, which clearly isn't the case.

Nowhere in the rules does it give specific guidelines on how to locate something by smell and sound alone. That’s up to the DM.

[Tanarii]

On the OP:
Decide on how you want to rule on:
- detecting sounds at a distance without stealth being involved
- launching an ambush

On sounds, I'd recommend setting a DC to hear not particularly loud things (talking, moving around) at a given distance in typical background noise areas. Take into account that at 30ft normal speaking sounds like a whisper.

On ambushing being launched, the key thing you have to decide is do you want it to be:
1) anyone previously hidden is revealed, follow the surprise procedures to decide if it worked and generated surprise, and roll for initiative.
2) anyone previously hidden is still hidden until they take an action. Prior to combat stealth checks may or may not replace the surprise procedures.

IMO the rules are written for the first. If the second was intended, I like to think they'd have spent some time explaining what happens if you win initiative but get to act anyway without even knowing a threat is there.


Again; if you start combat unaware of at least 1 hostile creature, you're surprised and cant act or move on turn 1, or take reactions until that turn ends (barring the Alert feat, which makes you quick enough to act in response to the threat, even if you cant pinpoint the enemy).
The rule is you must start combat unaware of all enemies. Not at least one.

[Whit]

Read page 189. 193, 194-195 PHB
1. Mage is invisible. Needs to be stealthed to Not be heard (foot steps spell components noise etc.
2. Rogue checks passive perception vs stealth. Unless actively checking.
3. Cannot be surprised just means The X mage will have to initiative roll vs rogue. Rogue Most likely winning.
4. Rogue will not kNow where the mage is. Basically he hears someone move breathe maybe ready to cast spell pull out components etc.
Thus rogue can do following. Verbally yell ambush or someone us here. Etc.
Rogue guesses what hex the mage is in and either far off auto miss or at best gets disadvantage to hit. Can also move etc
Rest of party however do not get initiative. ItÂ’s still a surprise round if doing it. Just the rogue isnÂ’t surprised.

Mage. Can also “ ready” the spell wall of force.
Reaction. When he sees the adventurers I cast wall of force. Thus he already has everything ready to cast. I would then give a -2 penalty to perception.

Either way. Rogue will most likely go first do what he can do and then mage acts. Still casting spell dividing the group and run away.

[Cry Havoc]

The rule is you must start combat unaware of all enemies. Not at least one.

Agree. I was trying to say if you notice at least 1 creature at the start of combat, you're not surprised.

[BurgerBeast]

Read page 189. 193, 194-195 PHB
1. Mage is invisible. Needs to be stealthed to Not be heard (foot steps spell components noise etc.

Incorrect. If you are not heard, in the DM’s determination, then you are not heard. As usual, if the DM thinks there is a chance that you are heard, he can use the dice to represent that chance.

Hiding is one way to make yourself yourself unheard.

[Tanarii]

Hiding is one way to make yourself yourself unheard.
But it's important for the DM to remember to also apply any dice chance (ie picking a DC) for not being heard as a floor value if someone also sneaks around.

Ie if as a DM you set the general DC in a not-totally-silent environment to be heard when moving around / talking to be DC 5 at 30ft and DC 10 at 60ft and DC 15 at 120ft ... those values should also be the minimum results a stealth check can generate. They shouldn't suddenly disappear because someone suddenly tries to sneak. From a consistency point of view.

[Whit]

Hiding is one way to make yourself yourself unheard
Exactly. That is what stealth is. Hiding. So the X needs to be stealthed. Unless your saying being invisible is stealthed? Which I would disagree because you might not be seen but they can hear you.

Another way of looking at it would be. Is it an attack? Technically not. HeÂ’s targeting an area that is not targeting anyone. Putting a wall up separating the group.
1. Does the rogue get a chance to do something because he has alert.
Alert :
You gain a +5 bonus to initiative. (Maybe applies)
You canÂ’t be surprised while you are conscious. (Is he being surprised? Neither he Not his party are being attacked.)
Other creatures donÂ’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you ( doesnÂ’t apply here)
So you can rule
1. HeÂ’s invisible (greater) canÂ’t be seen, but can be heard) unless stealthed like I suggested
And then see if the passive perception hears him.
2. HeÂ’s invisible not moving and gets to cast the spell as a surprise non attacking action.

ItÂ’s really up to the dm to give the rogue a chance or not to do something because of alert feat. The issue for the dm is does alert merit a 1v1 initiative vs the greater invis mage who is ready to cast a wall of force in between the party which is not an attack.
If not then the mage casts and runs
If so then most likely the rogue can win initiative try to Move/attack at disadvantage and then the wizard casts the wall of force. Either way I see it getting cast.

[Tanarii]

Hiding is one way to make yourself yourself unheard
Exactly. That is what stealth is. Hiding. So the X needs to be stealthed. Unless your saying being invisible is stealthed? Which I would disagree because you might not be seen but they can hear you.
Its also what walking around or standing there at maybe 60ft away is in most cases. It's still worth setting a reasonable DC that scales with distance, because PCs and monsters/NPCs can have passive perception scores well above the commoner norm. But at some point being far enough away means you don't have to worry about being heard. Same with being smelled in the case of some animals.

[heavyfuel]

@OP:

Here's an idea: Together with Invis, have the room be noisy. Even something like Minor Illusion can create sounds as loud as screams and it doesn't require concentration. Hearing someone move when there's a a very loud noise in the room is probably enough to induce disadvantage on perception checks.

So if you rule the Wizard is at advantage for being invisible and that players are at disadvantage due to the noise, the chances of the Wizard going unnoticed drastically increase.

[BurgerBeast]

Hiding is one way to make yourself yourself unheard
Exactly. That is what stealth is. Hiding. So the X needs to be stealthed. Unless your saying being invisible is stealthed?

No. I am saying that stealth is one way to make yourself unheard.

It is not the only way to be unheard.

If the DM determines that you can’t hear something or someone, then it’s not heard. It depends on ambient noise.

In my opinion, the idea that a mage might be heard at a range of, say, 60 feet because his feet shuffle and he is breathing is ridiculous. Especially considering that there are usually 3-4 party members around you who are also moving and breathing, and probably speaking intermittently, too.

Nowhere do the rules say that a creature is automatically heard if it is not hiding.

As Tanarii points out, as well, if the environment is such that you couldn’t hear someone at that distance anyway (i.e. because you are standing near a loud waterfall) then a poor stealth roll can’t make the waterfall quiet enough that a stealthy enemy is heard.

[HPisBS]

Being invisible = heavily obscured. Heavily obscured = "blinded" observers. Blinded = auto-fail vision-based perception checks.

(Seriously, WotC, wth do we need to look up 2 extra rules just to verify that, RAW, invisibility really does do what invisibility should clearly do?)

- Meaning the party can only perceive the mage through other senses - namely by hearing. So, mask the sound. Between distance and ambient noises, the PCs should need to roll really well to hear any mutterings for a spell.


The only real question is: How do you want initiative to work? Do you want to trigger initiative the moment the inciting incident (a spell being cast) begins, or the moment after it gets cast?

I say the former actually breaks the rules of initiative. It takes an action to cast the spell, which you can only do on your turn (except with the Readied Action). Thus, if the mage uses an action to cast his spell, and beginning to cast triggers initiative, but he rolls lower than the rogue, then the rogue would somehow take his turn before the mage's previously taken action gets resolved.

That isn't how action economy works with the rest of initiative, so why would you make it work like that at the start of initiative?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Delay is not a rule that is usually allowed in 5e, however in the case of an Alert character vs an undetected enemy. The best solution is to just let them take their turn right after the enemy goes even if they "win" initiative. If the ambusher acts before the Alert PC. The actions the Alert PC can do are limited because he can't see the enemy yet. But if he'd came in behind the ambusher he'd get the full range of his actions.

Winning initiative shouldn't penalized. So if an Alert character beats the unseen foe on initiative I'd give him the option of delaying his entire turn until the enemy acted. Lowering his initiative count for the combat.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I’m running a game where the PCs are fighting their way through a stronghold full of mages, and I’m trying to anticipate an awkward moment rules-wise.

The head mage is tracking the party’s movements with Arcane Eye and setting up a trap for them. While under the benefits of Greater Invisibility (cast by another mage), he’s going to wait for the party at a junction in the stronghold where he’ll cast Wall of Force to split the party, laugh at them and announce how they’re going to die, then run off and have the door barred behind him as his minions swarm in to kill the party.

One of the party members is a Thief with the Alert feat, and I can imagine him wanting to intercept the head mage before he can slink off. Ordinarily, I’d say they were surprised since they have no way to detect the invisible enemy while he’s not moving, but Alert makes him immune to being surprised. Theoretically, that would mean he and the head mage would have to roll initiative to see who acts first. But the thief would have no real actions to take before the head mage makes his presence known, and once he does, I would imagine he gets to take his full turn all at once, action and movement.

How should I handle this? Does the thief get a shot at intercepting the head mage, or does my villain get away with concentration intact?

IIRC:
The encounter begins, everybody rolls initiative.
The BBEG and the Rogue act during the first round in initiative order. Everybody else is surprised, and does not get their turn.
While the BBEG is invisible, the rogue by default doesn't know where the BBEG is, and must at least test perception to try to identify the square. If he attacks he can chose a location to shoot at, and he'll attack with disadvantage, because he can't see his target. If the square is occupied and he hits even with disadvantage, he will resolve damage, otherwise it's a miss.
Then the initiative goes back to the top of the order, and all players participate.

I think this is the best way to run it. The thief definitely gets a shot at intercepting the BBEG, that's why he took that feat. I very strongly believe you shouldn't suppress your player's feat to protect your BBEG, especially because the BBEG will still have plenty of opportunity to escape after the rogue shoots him if he doesn't die from the initial attack, and since the rogue can't have sneak attack because even if he detects him with perception he'd still have disadvantage from the invisibility cancelling the advantage he needs for sneak attack, the BBEG is unlikely to die. And, if concentration still drops, nothing stops the BBEG from bolting anyway.
And, since he can run on his turn after casting Wall of Force, the only spell he's at risk of dropping from concentration is Greater Invisibility, which he was going to give up anyway for Wall of Force. [also, GI only lasts for a minute, so he can't be waiting there for them for that long.]
So the rogue getting to go in the initiative step as normal will feel good for the rogue player since his feat is valid and his character is effective, potentially give the BBEG an "oh **** I can't monologue" moment which will make the entire party feel accomplished, and not actually seriously affect the BBEG's plan. There's no reason to do something like "you're surprised anyway and can't act until the BBEG acts even though you can't be surprised."



Another thing, looking at conditions and the environment sections in the PHB: invisibility means you’re heavily obscured. Heavily obscured means creatures trying to see you are effectively blinded. Blinded makes you automatically fail ability checks that rely on sight. Wouldn’t detecting a creature that is standing still rely on sight (unless you have keen smelling, e.g. the ranger’s panther companion)? And doesn’t that mean the party is functionally unable to detect the mage until he acts, making all of them unaware of him and all except the Thief surprised?

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conditions#content

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/The%20Environment#toc_3

No, because he can still be heard by the party.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Delay is not a rule that is usually allowed in 5e, however in the case of an Alert character vs an undetected enemy. The best solution is to just let them take their turn right after the enemy goes even if they "win" initiative. If the ambusher acts before the Alert PC. The actions the Alert PC can do are limited because he can't see the enemy yet. But if he'd came in behind the ambusher he'd get the full range of his actions.

Winning initiative shouldn't penalized. So if an Alert character beats the unseen foe on initiative I'd give him the option of delaying his entire turn until the enemy acted. Lowering his initiative count for the combat.
I've generally done this, while I know by RAW it isn't correct our group tends not to worry too much about that. Alert, to me, is like a 6th sense; you know something is up, but don't know where the danger is coming from. I've had characters dodge or just allowed Alert characters to act after the fact, then worried about initiative the next round when I figured there was no logical way anyone else could have even known something was up.
In a more extreme situation than the OP an invisible silent longbowman could have an arrow into someone from 600 feet before anyone else is the wiser, so the only logical solution for me there is to allow the Alert character to effectively lose initiative the first round and thus get some benefit for the feat.

[iTreeby]

I feel like this stronghold would benefit tremendously from the guards and wards spell which could probably split the party at the junction without a save...

But yeah, as soon as the enemy casts a spell with a verbal component, the party will know his location. You roll initiative, and people who aren't suprised get to act, it's not too complicated eh?

[Tanarii]

Alert isn't penalizing anything if you just roll initiative, the ambushers launch the ambush, determine if surprise was achieved, decide where everyone is, and then let the first person in initiative go first. If an alert character beats an ambusher for initiative and attacks them before the ambusher gets the attack off, great! They're just that good.

Nothing in the PHB combat initiative or surprise sequence tells you how to handle "still hiding after an ambush is launched". If that was part of the process, why'd they leave out such critical information?

[HPisBS]

... If an alert character beats an ambusher for initiative and attacks them before the ambusher gets the attack off, great! They're just that good.

Except that doesn't make any sense (assuming I'm understanding you correctly).

The reason being that if initiative is triggered the moment the "ambush is launched" - i.e. the moment the mage starts to cast the spell, then it breaks how initiative / action economy normally works.


It takes an action to cast the spell, which you can only do on your turn (except with the Readied Action). Thus, if the mage uses an action to cast his spell, and beginning to cast triggers initiative, but he rolls lower than the rogue, then the rogue would somehow take his turn before the mage's previously taken action gets resolved.

That isn't how action economy works with the rest of initiative, so why would you make it work like that at the start of initiative?


If you didn't mean that the rogue (and whoever else isn't Surprised) should potentially get to act before the surprise spell takes effect, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[Tanarii]

Except that doesn't make any sense (assuming I'm understanding you correctly).

The reason being that if initiative is triggered the moment the "ambush is launched" - i.e. the moment the mage starts to cast the spell, then it breaks how initiative / action economy normally works.

Why?

You launch the ambush. You reveal yourself. Then when initiative comes up, you take your actions. You cast your spell.

Sense and initiative / action economy preserved.

[HPisBS]

You launch your ambush by casting your spell -- which is an action, which you take on your turn. Assuming I'm reading you correctly, the ambushed character(s) would take their turn responding to the cast spell before that spell is actually cast - which breaks turn order / action economy pretty badly.

[iTreeby]

You launch your ambush by casting your spell -- which is an action, which you take on your turn. Assuming I'm reading you correctly, the ambushed character(s) would take their turn responding to the cast spell before that spell is actually cast - which breaks turn order / action economy pretty badly.

Only if you think everyone waits about six seconds for each person that goes before them...

[HPisBS]

Only if you think everyone waits about six seconds for each person that goes before them...

Remind me again how the rest of combat plays out...

[Snails]

Nothing in the PHB combat initiative or surprise sequence tells you how to handle "still hiding after an ambush is launched". If that was part of the process, why'd they leave out such critical information?

Rulings not rules. That is why. It is simply a hole in the rules, one that is not common enough to bloat the slimmed down surprise/initiative rules, in the designers' opinion, I surmise.

There are two equally logical ways to address this hole:

(1) Surprise/Initiative overrides Stealth: Stealth does not work the way the rules seem to say it does, as the surprise/initiative can "force" a successfully hidden character to reveal themselves before they have actually taken an action. Heck, even before they have decided what action they might taken. For example: "You kicked a stone to reveal yourself...um, before you moved. In spite of your excellent Stealth check. Because Initiative wins."

(2) Stealth can bypass Surprise/Initiative: If there is no observable sign to react to, then the successfully Stealthing character can avoid initiative by not acting. How I would do this is re-roll Stealth/Perception contest (giving the targets some benefit of unconscious ephemeral awareness of possible danger), and the Stealthy character can call for new Initiative rolls at another time. "You were about to jump out, but suddenly one of your would be victims looked too close to where you are and seems momentarily wary. You can follow through with your attack, knowing that you probably do not win Initiative or something similar, at least for him. Or you can wait for a better moment, and risk another Stealth check." (I think it may make sense to have house rules on how readily Alertness and/or Initiative can be sussed out. But this seems like fair warning to me.)

[iTreeby]

Remind me again how the rest of combat plays out...

A round made up of turns in initiative order? Read page 189 of your phb... If you are suprised you don't have an action movement or reaction during the first turn of combat. Everything is in initiative order.

[Tanarii]

Rulings not rules. That is why. It is simply a hole in the rules, one that is not common enough to bloat the slimmed down surprise/initiative rules, in the designers' opinion, I surmise.

This is a core resolution element for any surprise situation. So no, that doesnt fly. If it was expected that you were hidden until your first action in every surprise situation, it would have been made clear.

Instead what was made clear was the penalty for being surprised by somebody.


You launch your ambush by casting your spell -- which is an action, which you take on your turn.
Theres no reason they have to be synonymous.

Now if an ambush / surprise was explicitly same thing as being hidden, yes it would be weird. Because hidde has a rule for when it is broken. Despite using the same mechanic for resolution they aren't the same thing.

[Telok]

Just give the caster a scroll of silence or have him prep the spell, and place the silence zone between himself and the where the party will be. PCs can't see or hear the cast, no reason to start combat. Wall of force is invisible and silent too, plus it doesn't affect them untill they hit it.

Sure, you miss out on the villianous monologue. Just have a copy of the evil overlord list in with the loot. Simply avoid the narrative/mechanic conflicts by having the NPC spellcaster know how spellcasting works.

[Snails]

This is a core resolution element for any surprise situation. So no, that doesnt fly. If it was expected that you were hidden until your first action in every surprise situation, it would have been made clear.

Whether you are correct or not, that argument cuts both ways. If you could automagically perceive people, in spite of your very inadequate Perception check compared to the relevant Stealth check of the potential target, why is that not mentioned, in either the Surprise rules or the Perception rules?

The lack of a rule is a lack of a rule, regardless of your preferred ruling here.

[BigRedJedi]

At my tables, surprise requires intent (e.g. one side using Stealth against opponents' Perception, whether active or passive) and anyone who is surprised gets Disadvantage on their initiative roll AND may not act in the first round. For situations like Alert or other means of avoiding the surprised condition, if the ambushers fail to beat the defenders Perception scores, the defenders sixth sense warns them when combat starts, but does not nullify the effects of invisibility or being out of line of sight; during the unsurprised defenders' turns, they just know that something is amiss (or they heard/spotted something amiss) but they have no additional information, unless would otherwise be detected. (They might also take actions to detect what triggered their sixth sense.)

For the rare situation in which a "surprised" defender still gets high enough initiative to have their first turn in a surprise round, this simply means they have excellent reflexes and can use their reaction in response to the previously undetected ambush, but they still did not take an action during the first round.


Note: The rule about being surprised giving Disadvantage on initiative checks can also apply to your own side, if doing something that is unplanned and dangerous, e.g. in a social situation and, "Boring conversation, anyways... LUKE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE COMPANY!"

[djreynolds]

Questions

This wizard is holding his action?

I will ready an action. When I spot the party I will cast this spell.

So he's concentrating on this spell? (Forget discussing how long the wizard needs to hold this concentration)

Does the round begin when the wizard sees the party?

Not when the wizard begins casting?

The wizard's readied action is when he sees the party pass this point?

[Tanarii]

Whether you are correct or not, that argument cuts both ways. If you could automagically perceive people, in spite of your very inadequate Perception check compared to the relevant Stealth check of the potential target, why is that not mentioned, in either the Surprise rules or the Perception rules?it tells you the consquences for failing to percieve a check for surprise. You're surprised.


The lack of a rule is a lack of a rule, regardless of your preferred ruling here.Oh yes. Let me clear, I'm arguing a preferred interpretation. I think it works best, and therefor I'm justifying it.

[greenstone]

Theoretically, that would mean he and the head mage would have to roll initiative to see who acts first. But the thief would have no real actions to take before the head mage makes his presence known, and once he does, I would imagine he gets to take his full turn all at once, action and movement.
It helps to think of Initiative as "when players resolve their actions", instead of "when players start their actions."

In your case, it would go something like:

GM: Right, there's something coming up that needs initiative. Everyone roll please. OK, you are all surprised, except for the Thief. Thief, you think that something is near, something hostile. You don't know what or why, just some unconscious feeling or almost imperceptible clue to danger. What do you do?

The mage has done something to kick off the situation, even if it was just breathe noisily. :-) The thief, through their extraordinary senses (the Alert feat) has noticed this and has the opportunity to do something.

[BurgerBeast]

This is a core resolution element for any surprise situation. So no, that doesnt fly. If it was expected that you were hidden until your first action in every surprise situation, it would have been made clear.

I think I’ve finally seen your point on this. Everyone is surprised, so winning initiative means only that you can take reactions, i.e. that despite being surprised, you still managed to react before the attacker got his or her attack off.

But in the case of an alert character... we still have the bizarro problem raised wherein the alert character is given a bonus pass on his perception. Even worse if the attacker or attackers decide to remain hidden.

It seems to me that this works even better if you roll initiative every round and require action declaration before initiative is rolled. I may be wrong about that.

However, what if, for example, there are four hidden ambushers, and they decide to attack... and the alert character wins initiative... who does he see? All four? And do his team-mates also see all four? I can’t help thinking that the ambushers are being robbed of their successful stealth checks.

As you’ve heard me say before, the alert character gets to “not be surprised” but he does not get the ability to pass his failed perception contest.

I feel like this one is an actual hole or oversight in the rules. I think they just didn’t notice this particular rule interaction.

[Satori01]

So let’s set aside the text and answer the ontological question of how do you Hide, when you are Invisible?

Does kneeling behind Half Cover somehow make you more Invisible?
Less likely to be Heard?

An Invisible creature, really just needs to be silent, to remain Hidden.

This NPC is a trained Wizard, not coughing for 6 seconds is as much a No Roll Required situation as can be.

The NPC can control an Elemental through Concentration for an hour, but now suddenly is going to fart, because a PC has the Alert feat?

More Importantly for the OP is any Mid Level Wizard can reasonably stack the deck to make themselves nigh undetectable given time.

The Party can’t see him.
The Party can’t hear him...because of the Magic Mouth spell, the NPC cast...possibly from a scroll. The trigger is the Party coming into range, and the Magic Mouth screams the NPC’s threats for him. Very Stylish.
The Party can’t smell him because of Prestidigitation.

So the Party, not being able See, Smell, or Hear the NPC should have Disadvantage on their Perception checks to spot him.

Even if the PC rogue beats the NPC’s initiative, the PC will likely spend their actions Investigating the decoy odors and illusions the NPC set through use of Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation.
Then the NPC goes.

Now if the PC Rogue is of the Inquisitive subclass...the PC can Investigate/Perception twice, so the NPC might still get caught....but that is What Inquisitives Do!

[BurgerBeast]

So...

An Invisible creature, really just needs to be silent, to remain Hidden.

Look, I agree with what you’ve said, more or less entirely. I just had to nitpick this bit.

The invisible creature does not need to be silent. The invisible creature just needs to not be heard.

It’s a much lower threshold. In fact, it’s so low as to be nearly always an auto-success, in my opinion.

[Tanarii]

However, what if, for example, there are four hidden ambushers, and they decide to attack... and the alert character wins initiative... who does he see? All four? And do his team-mates also see all four? I can’t help thinking that the ambushers are being robbed of their successful stealth checks.

Everyone sees everyone within line of sight at the beginning of combat. Y'all launched your ambush. If you want to hide again after take the Hide action.

Alert is not robbing the ambushers of a stealth check. It robs them of a 'surprise' check. Two different things, with different results. The first makes you hidden. The second determines if your enemies are surprised. And enemies without a feat, Barbarian levels, or a magic item are surprised if you all succeed. Those with can rob you of your attempted ambush.

IMO etc etc. Since I'm using definitive language that's important I guess. ;)

[BurgerBeast]

Everyone sees everyone within line of sight at the beginning of combat. Y'all launched your ambush. If you want to hide again after take the Hide action.

Alert is not robbing the ambushers of a stealth check. It robs them of a 'surprise' check. Two different things, with different results. The first makes you hidden. The second determines if your enemies are surprised. And enemies without a feat, Barbarian levels, or a magic item are surprised if you all succeed. Those with can rob you of your attempted ambush.

IMO etc etc. Since I'm using definitive language that's important I guess. ;)

So none of the ambushers receives advantage on his attack for being unseen? (Even the alert character, who is not surprised, should still not be able to negate the advantage that was gained by the successful stealth-vs-perception contest. No?)

Because that seems to me to be the fundamental difference between a typical surprise attack, wherein, for example, everyone runs out of the bushes and catches the targets unawares; and a hidden ambush, wherein arrows just start flying from the trees.

Mechanically, the difference would be the advantage to attacks in addition to surprising at least some targets from the hidden shooters, versus only surprising some targets in the case of the runners.

The runners are also much easier to rationalize within the narrative regarding an alert PC...

Edit: one of the reasons I ask, is because a much more common situation, in the games I play/DM, is for the rogue to hide ahead of time, and the other party members to initiate combat, at which point the rogue attacks from his hidden position. It appears that, under your rules, the rogue would become visible the moment initiative is rolled, and become seen because his allies were seen. Not sure how I feel about it: I like the simplicity but I can’t help feeling like the rogue is being robbed, here

[MaxWilson]

I’m running a game where the PCs are fighting their way through a stronghold full of mages, and I’m trying to anticipate an awkward moment rules-wise.

The head mage is tracking the party’s movements with Arcane Eye and setting up a trap for them. While under the benefits of Greater Invisibility (cast by another mage), he’s going to wait for the party at a junction in the stronghold where he’ll cast Wall of Force to split the party, laugh at them and announce how they’re going to die, then run off and have the door barred behind him as his minions swarm in to kill the party.

One of the party members is a Thief with the Alert feat, and I can imagine him wanting to intercept the head mage before he can slink off. Ordinarily, I’d say they were surprised since they have no way to detect the invisible enemy while he’s not moving, but Alert makes him immune to being surprised. Theoretically, that would mean he and the head mage would have to roll initiative to see who acts first. But the thief would have no real actions to take before the head mage makes his presence known, and once he does, I would imagine he gets to take his full turn all at once, action and movement.

How should I handle this? Does the thief get a shot at intercepting the head mage, or does my villain get away with concentration intact?

DM call: Villain automatically wins initiative over acts before the thief, but thief is not surprised--has a chance to act in this round.

It's better and more fair for than the thief being asked to uselessly do [whatever he does when no bad guys are around] because the villain hasn't revealed his presence yet.

[Reynaert]

So none of the ambushers receives advantage on his attack for being unseen? (Even the alert character, who is not surprised, should still not be able to negate the advantage that was gained by the successful stealth-vs-perception contest. No?)

You are correct. Not being surprised does not give you the ability to negate the advantage from being hidden.
This is very easy to prove: The Alert feat specifically adds this third bullet, so the devs obviously thought this was not implied:


Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you.

(Of course, in the end, the alert character does negate the advantage ;) )

[Tanarii]

Edit: one of the reasons I ask, is because a much more common situation, in the games I play/DM, is for the rogue to hide ahead of time, and the other party members to initiate combat, at which point the rogue attacks from his hidden position. It appears that, under your rules, the rogue would become visible the moment initiative is rolled, and become seen because his allies were seen. Not sure how I feel about it: I like the simplicity but I can’t help feeling like the rogue is being robbed, here
Interesting. The common situation I had to deal with was stealthy PCs in front launching an ambush (usually from 30ft) with non stealthy PCs ~60ft behind them as a seperate group. The front guys would attempt an ambush and get within 30ft (assuming los etc allowed approaching that close), and make a 'surprise' check to try and gain surprise. Then I'd roll initiative, combat would begin.

Initially I started off with a 30-foot distance between the two groups. Ultimately I found that put them too close together and the back group could easily get up once combat Started. Also I wanted to make a difference between the situation and the standard starting encounter distance of 60 feet from the enemy for nonsurprise situations. I found that if you started the back group at 60 feet from the enemy (30 from the front group) whether or not they tried an ambush they would almost always choose ambush for the superior position.

Note that 35ft and 70ft are the average starting distances for encounters from the DMs screen. I just skipped rolling it randomly and adjusted for situations.

Also between 30 and 60 feet is the range of which you can no longer hear something equivalent of a conversation. To me that makes it the range which you will no longer hear someone just moving around even if they don't make a stealth check. Thus something in that range should be sufficient to count as separate groups.

I should probably add: clearly I'm not treating the abstract rules as a stealth/movement simulator 😏. That's an intentional choice and a change in how I run the game from 3e. Of course if I want go whole hog on that, a determine surprise then roll encounter distance instead of setting up standardized rules in advance.

[Satori01]

Tanarii....not to be rude, you are entitled to share your opinion....but you don’t play with 5e rules.....so what practical relevance do your examples have?

My C++ programming knowledge has little relevance in a thread about the Python language.

Just curious, and a little puzzled....not an attack, and NOT intended to be hostile.

[Snails]

Everyone sees everyone within line of sight at the beginning of combat. Y'all launched your ambush. If you want to hide again after take the Hide action.


Thank you for stating that overtly. Now, I can better understand where you are coming from.

While that is not how we do it at our gaming table, I can see advantages to resolving things the way you do. I believe I would not have trouble adjusting to this way of playing and having fun at your table.

The pacing on how different groups and sub-groups enter combat can cause confusion, no matter how the rules are interpreted. How the DM applies the rules, and where the PCs and NPCs usually enter combat from (30 feet? 60 feet? Further?) probably matters more than the details.

[Xetheral]

Note that 35ft and 70ft are the average starting distances for encounters from the DMs screen. I just skipped rolling it randomly and adjusted for situations.

Oh wow. The usual starting distances for encounters in my games are either 5' (if social interaction preceded combat), 10-15' (if combat started with opening a door), or the maximum effective range of whichever side is initiating combat (based on terrain/cover/weaponry).

[Dark.Revenant]

Highly related example from my own game:

A master-of-stealth sharpshooting rogue is over a hundred feet away, out of line-of-sight to the party (but in LOS to a nearby NPC), hidden, utterly silent, and shrouded in shadows and natural camouflage. His stealth roll is over 30, literally impossible for any party member to match with their Perception (passive or not). None of the party's light sources, darkvision, or other senses reach that far, so he is completely undetectable in every way.

To make a good cliff-hanger for the session, he looses an arrow at the NPC he can see, rolls a natural 20, deals over 70 damage and immediately drops the NPC to 0 with a single shot. I tell the group I'll see them next week to roll initiative.

Only, except one of the party members has a Weapon of Warning. I house-ruled the Weapon of Warning to only negate surprise for the person attuned to it, so that character is not surprised when initiative is rolled. We didn't have time left in the session to actually roll initiative prior to telling them what the enemy's action was, so now there's a chance the Warning-wielding character will beat the rogue's (rather good) initiative.

If such a scenario occurs, it becomes a meta-game issue. Initiative is rolled and the non-surprised character has no plausible reason to know what the threat actually is; the enemy is completely undetectable, no matter what the player does or rolls. The only information they could possibly have is "the whistle of an arrow through the air", and that's being generous.

However, out of game, the player knows exactly who is in danger and can just protect that specific individual with a spell like Otiluke's Resilient Sphere or Wall of Force. If that happens, the one initiating the encounter would not have a valid target to attack, and so he'd just not attack, remaining in stealth until a new opportunity comes. This obviously retcons the descriptions and events I used earlier, but there is no rule of the game requiring a creature to follow through with an act that sets off initiative, if the situation happens to change before their turn comes up. The likely result is just a complete reset of the scenario; the party is on edge, but we immediately drop out of initiative because no one knows where the heck the sniper is hiding.

To avoid this, I feel a DM should enforce meta-gaming restrictions in such scenarios. "Your character knows something bad is right about to happen, but you don't know what it is specifically. What do you do?"

[iTreeby]

To avoid this, I feel a DM should enforce meta-gaming restrictions in such scenarios. "Your character knows something bad is right about to happen, but you don't know what it is specifically. What do you do?"

I mean, it's hardly meta gaming, you can get a feeling that something is about to happen. It can be based on information that you have processed but not consciously processed, such as intuitively hearing the ambiant sound of a room being absorbed by an invisible characters clothes (you can probably hear where most of your furnature is if you wear a blindfold) you could subconsciously react to a smell such as blood or rust or dander. You could take a page from anime and "sense killing intent" there are lots of possible explanations that hold up well enough to not scrap the rules...

They do have varient initiative systems that are more complicated (chose your action blind before initiative is rolled, reroll initiative every round, use passive initiative, whoever says what they do first goes first, etc...) but even edge cases are explanable and it's not unreasonable to say alert just gives you a spidey sense if that's how you want rule it.

[BurgerBeast]

Highly related example from my own game:

(Snip)

This was more or less the point I raised in a previous thread on a similar topic.

To compound the problem, suppose it’s not a weapon of warning, but the alertness feat, and suppose this happens four or five times to the same party.

Suddenly the “alert” guy is starting to seem a lot more like the “overly paranoid overreaction” guy.

Because whenever his alertness-internal-alarm-bell goes off, and he reacts... nobody, including himself, detects any actual threat.

Kind of lame.

[greenstone]

You launch your ambush by casting your spell -- which is an action, which you take on your turn. Assuming I'm reading you correctly, the ambushed character(s) would take their turn responding to the cast spell before that spell is actually cast - which breaks turn order / action economy pretty badly.

This is my point. You don't launch your ambush by casting your spell, you launch your ambush by starting to cast your spell. When you finish casting is determined by the initiative score.

If one of the foes has highter initiative than you, then they noticed you start the ambush (perhaps your indrawn breath, perhaps the rustling of gear, perhaps the smell of your spell components) and were quick enough to start and resolve their action before you resolve yours.

It has to be this way in the game, otherwise ambushes are too unfair. It is not fun when the players characters are on the recieving end of the ambush.

GM: Lots of arrows hit to fighter, who is now dead.
Player: Wait, don't I get to roll?
GM: Nope. Start generating a new character.

[HPisBS]

This is my point. You don't launch your ambush by casting your spell, you launch your ambush by starting to cast your spell. When you finish casting is determined by the initiative score.

Nowhere else in the game - maybe barring one or two very specific features ? - can you use your action normally to interrupt another creature's action. And since neither initiative nor surprise mentions an exception, there isn't. It's flat out not how initiative / action economy works in RAW 5e.


If one of the foes has highter initiative than you, then they noticed you start the ambush (perhaps your indrawn breath, perhaps the rustling of gear, perhaps the smell of your spell components) and were quick enough to start and resolve their action before you resolve yours.

It has to be this way in the game, otherwise ambushes are too unfair. It is not fun when the players characters are on the recieving end of the ambush.

GM: Lots of arrows hit to fighter, who is now dead.
Player: Wait, don't I get to roll?
GM: Nope. Start generating a new character.

Bull.

For one, that assertion breaks down the moment adequate preparation is considered (ambushing from range with invisibility, for example).

For another, it's also unnecessary to let all ambushers take their action simultaneously. Since the game uses dice to randomize success and failure for so many things, it's fairly consistent to pick one as the initial attacker, and let the rest simply fall wherever they do in round 1 initiative.

RAW surprise initiative is poorly written. But that's no reason to make it to break the rest of RAW's initiative / action economy rules.

[BurgerBeast]

This is my point. You don't launch your ambush by casting your spell, you launch your ambush by starting to cast your spell. When you finish casting is determined by the initiative score.

And the problem with this is that the player who starts to cast his spell hasn’t had his turn yet, and when that turn arrives, he has the autonomy to do something different than cast that spell. So now what?

And what if his action is to hide and retreat quietly?

Narratively, the person who acted before him acted because he started casting a spell, but actually, that never happened.

- - -

I’m not trying to say your method is not a good one. I’m just trying to say that there is a problem here, in the rules, and I haven’t yet seen a straightforward solution that solves the problems.


It has to be this way in the game, otherwise ambushes are too unfair. It is not fun when the players characters are on the recieving end of the ambush.

GM: Lots of arrows hit to fighter, who is now dead.
Player: Wait, don't I get to roll?
GM: Nope. Start generating a new character.

Well, I do agree with this sentiment, but it’s not as if the fighter had no agency. He made decisions about how much to invest in his Perception skill, for example. A good DM would give decision points leading up to the ambush after which the players could take actions to avoid the ambush. Presumably there are other roads and pathways in the world than the particular one the PCs are on. Even if none of that applies, the DM could give the player a Perception roll (instead of using the passive score) to detect the ambushers.

[Tanarii]

Sounds like we need to go back to declaration at the top of the round and initiative just determining when your resolution occurs.

Which introduces its own problems of course

[BurgerBeast]

Sounds like we need to go back to declaration at the top of the round and initiative just determining when your resolution occurs.

Which introduces its own problems of course

That’s actually how I prefer to play. In my opinion the problems are not nearly as bad as people think. When it’s done right, it can be quite fast. But flexibility and trust for the DM are integral.

Since actions are declared before intitiative is rolled, you save time because everyone thinks about what to do at the same time, instead of each person pausing when the action gets to them to think (which I find is even worse online). You can get into a pretty good flow.

A. The DM recaps any recent events and narrates the current state of affairs to the group
B. The DM determines all monster actions
C. Players declare their actions
D. Initiative
E. 1. Start with the highest initiative player who hasn’t acted
(E. 2. DM quickly narrates to the player what his player is experiencing)
E. 3. DM (and player) resolves action, allowing for player to adjust as appropriate
E. 4 if this ends the round, return to step A; if there are more players to act, go to step E.1

I allow for fairly general declarations, such as “I’m casting a spell,” or “I’ll approach the enemy and attack with my axe.”

I allow casters to switch spells and targets, casters to switch from casting to a weapon, attackers to switch from melee to ranged fairly liberally... etc

[Snails]

If one of the foes has highter initiative than you, then they noticed you start the ambush (perhaps your indrawn breath, perhaps the rustling of gear, perhaps the smell of your spell components) and were quick enough to start and resolve their action before you resolve yours.

You can do it that way, it is certainly a playable enough way to go. But it is contrary to the RAW, built on the assumption that the DM can dictate a fairy tale about what the character specifically did to reveal herself, regardless of the intentions or situation.

I prefer Tanarii's method of simply declaring that no one is hidden when initiative is rolled. That does have some corner cases that some may not like. Specifically:
(1) It dictates that unusual sneaky characters who simply want to stay hidden for the beginning of combat are arbitrarily not allowed to try to do so, or must get lucky with the initiative to be allowed. If I win initiative and re-hide, was I ever seen? This is not a common scenario, but I can imagine a PC down in single digit HPs might decide they want to avoid combat until a moment of their choosing.
(2) Because we should generally apply rules in a reciprocal way, it allows PCs to auto-Perceive enemies once a single enemy has been identified, since hiding at the beginning of combat is now impossible. Probably not important in terms of play balance, but it does remove a certain kind of dramatic reveal arrow from the DM's quiver.



It has to be this way in the game, otherwise ambushes are too unfair. It is not fun when the players characters are on the receiving end of the ambush.


I probably tend towards a PC bias, and I do not know what you are talking about. It is the normal way of combat that when not surprised, the enemies will get to go 0 or 1 times before you do. When you are surprised, that is increased by one to 1 or 2 times.

Furthermore, I do not see how your house rules actually solve the problem. Players can still get ambushed and walloped twice before they move.

[Tanarii]

I allow for fairly general declarations, such as “I’m casting a spell,” or “I’ll approach the enemy and attack with my axe.”

I allow casters to switch spells and targets, casters to switch from casting to a weapon, attackers to switch from melee to ranged fairly liberally... etc
It's been a while, but the biggest problem was having to declare melee, ranged, or spell (and which spell), and not being able to switch between them.

Melee especially could be prone to the situation changing enough they could not effectively engage. OTOH if melee engaged first spell or ranged were basically locked out of those targets anyway, since firing into a melee meant random targeting.

Honestly though, the system really did work better if your understood it was a 10-20 PC (including retainers/henchman) squad/platoon rather than the more modern 3-5 man fire team.

[BurgerBeast]

It's been a while, but the biggest problem was having to declare melee, ranged, or spell (and which spell), and not being able to switch between them.

Yeah, that’s a no-go. It just wouldn’t fly with some players I have who are already very concerned (and rightly so) about being jobbed by the system.


Melee especially could be prone to the situation changing enough they could not effectively engage. OTOH if melee engaged first spell or ranged were basically locked out of those targets anyway, since firing into a melee meant random targeting.

Yep. That won’t fly in today’s game, either.


Honestly though, the system really did work better if your understood it was a 10-20 PC (including retainers/henchman) squad/platoon rather than the more modern 3-5 man fire team.

Agreed. I wasn’t referring to the BECMI ruleset (not sure if that’s what you’re thinking about), but the 2e system that used a d10.

We loved it because it created chaos and excitement. I literally remember everyone leaving forward at key moments to see if, for example, the ogre was going to smash the ogre before the fighter could get there to save him. Or if a character could move before the dragon unleashed his breath weapon.

[Snails]

Melee especially could be prone to the situation changing enough they could not effectively engage. OTOH if melee engaged first spell or ranged were basically locked out of those targets anyway, since firing into a melee meant random targeting.

Honestly though, the system really did work better if your understood it was a 10-20 PC (including retainers/henchman) squad/platoon rather than the more modern 3-5 man fire team.

It makes sense enough for play style that tends towards that of a mass combat wargame, where many "units" form battle lines and clash. That some pieces of the line may not have an attack resolved in a given round is acceptable in this context, because allowing holes to form in the line for short term efficiency would risk devastating flank and rear attacks, for instance.

But in the modern age of 8 or less players, losing attacks because the mechanics are super rigid with no apparent in game rationale is not going to be looked kindly upon. In the transition from a wargame to a roleplaying game, players expect certain kinds of agency, such as not having to think hard for their super competent character to attempt to hit someone with a pointy stick.

[Tanarii]

But in the modern age of 8 or less players, losing attacks because the mechanics are super rigid with no apparent in game rationale is not going to be looked kindly upon. In the transition from a wargame to a roleplaying game, players expect certain kinds of agency, such as not having to think hard for their super competent character to attempt to hit someone with a pointy stick.Its important to remember that 15-20 PCs plus retainers/henchmen might easily only be 4 players in BECMI or AD&D.

[Snails]

Its important to remember that 15-20 PCs plus retainers/henchmen might easily only be 4 players in BECMI or AD&D.

Ah. Right. If I am one of multiple players, and I have 5 PCs + retainers to command, then it is just part of the pacing of the game if 1 or even 2 of the 5 might happen to not get a useful action this round.

Which will feel really different from having 1 player waiting (what seems like) a long time to have his 1 PC take 1 action, only to be denied that action for what may appear to be unnecessary rigidity of the mechanics.

[Asisreo1]

And the problem with this is that the player who starts to cast his spell hasn’t had his turn yet, and when that turn arrives, he has the autonomy to do something different than cast that spell. So now what?

And what if his action is to hide and retreat quietly?

Narratively, the person who acted before him acted because he started casting a spell, but actually, that never happened.

It did happen, the wizard just changed their mind. The actual, VSM components of the casting hasn't started just yet, there's a half a second where the wizard needs to align himself mentally to cast the spell. But once the alert PC attacks, the Wizard makes a snap decision to not actually start casting.

As a DM, it would go: "You notice someone in the corner of your eye about to cast a spell, what do you do?"

"I attack." Rolls Atk & DMG.

"After getting hit/seeing the miss, whatever it was seems to withdraw to hide rather than cast it's spell. What do you do?"

[greenstone]

Bull.
OK, provide a replacement. Give us an initiative scheme that is fair for all the people at the table.

By "fair" I mean, "Will never produce a situation that has a person at the table throw their dice down in disgust, yelling 'That's not fair!'"

And by "all the people" I mean the players and the GM. Mechanics must work the same for both sides of the GM screen (otherwise its not fair).

[Telok]

OK, provide a replacement. Give us an initiative scheme that is fair for all the people at the table.

By "fair" I mean, "Will never produce a situation that has a person at the table throw their dice down in disgust, yelling 'That's not fair!'"

And by "all the people" I mean the players and the GM. Mechanics must work the same for both sides of the GM screen (otherwise its not fair).

Well, everyone draws a card from a standard deck of playing cards (minus jokers). Then they write down what they want to do, which can include things like "wait untill the end and then heal my most wounded ally". Players can coordinate and/or question the DM but may not reveal their card value. When everyone is ready the cards are revealed and actions are resolved in descending card value (face down to ace, then hearts, spades, diamonds, clubs).

Note that this isn't an ideal scheme for battle mat based D&D but it is absolutely fair.

For something that does work with the current D&D simply rule that all participants cannot act or react untill the combat triggering event is actually occurring. I'm running a non-d&d game where half the party has "cannot be surprised" on their characters and have to deal with concealed snipers 750 meters away using laser rifles. The rule "everyone not surprisable and faster than the sniper automatically delays untill the triggering shot happens" works just fine.

[Xetheral]

OK, provide a replacement. Give us an initiative scheme that is fair for all the people at the table.

By "fair" I mean, "Will never produce a situation that has a person at the table throw their dice down in disgust, yelling 'That's not fair!'"

And by "all the people" I mean the players and the GM. Mechanics must work the same for both sides of the GM screen (otherwise its not fair).

The initiative scheme I use is that when only one character wants to take a combat action at a given moment, they automatically win initiative. The idea behind it is that if only one character is trying to go first, there is nothing for the dice to resolve. After that character takes their action, presumably more characters will want to take a combat action, so now everyone else rolls initiative to determine the order of actions for the rest of the first round. The character who went first has already acted, so their next action will come at the top of the second round.

This scheme doesn't address all the potential rough spots in initiative, but it is fair to everyone at the table. The only time a player doesn't get to roll initiative to try to go first is when their character doesn't *want* to go first.

Accordingly, this scheme nicely handles ambushes by an unnoticed assailant, party-led ambushes where one character has been given the role of starting the attack, and social-situations-turned-violent where one character doesn't want to act first so that they aren't blamed for instigating the fight.

For clarity, my scheme does not depend on who declared they want to attack first. If multiple people want to attack I roll initiative normally, regardless of order of declaration.

[Yuroch Kern]

I’m running a game where the PCs are fighting their way through a stronghold full of mages, and I’m trying to anticipate an awkward moment rules-wise.

The head mage is tracking the party’s movements with Arcane Eye and setting up a trap for them. While under the benefits of Greater Invisibility (cast by another mage), he’s going to wait for the party at a junction in the stronghold where he’ll cast Wall of Force to split the party, laugh at them and announce how they’re going to die, then run off and have the door barred behind him as his minions swarm in to kill the party.

One of the party members is a Thief with the Alert feat, and I can imagine him wanting to intercept the head mage before he can slink off. Ordinarily, I’d say they were surprised since they have no way to detect the invisible enemy while he’s not moving, but Alert makes him immune to being surprised. Theoretically, that would mean he and the head mage would have to roll initiative to see who acts first. But the thief would have no real actions to take before the head mage makes his presence known, and once he does, I would imagine he gets to take his full turn all at once, action and movement.

How should I handle this? Does the thief get a shot at intercepting the head mage, or does my villain get away with concentration intact?

Well, consider that the mage is Invisible. Which is Heavily Obscured. They don't have Advantage to Stealth, everyone has Disadvantage to Perception. Next, Surprise is different than being ready. If the party doesn't notice him but beats the initiative, the character feels SOMETHING is wrong, but doesn't know why...still, sorta on edge maybe, shields up, Reactions possible...

Surprise is a condition when the target of an Action that matters has neither noticed or defeated it in Initiative. You are clueless and not ready at all. Hence, no Reaction, can be Assassinated, probably still have your shield slung, etc. Alert just makes you always Ready, but you can still be looking for that vague mumbling somewhere and get nailed before you actively roll Perception to listen.

No one detects him and he's first? It's basically activating a trap. It goes off, and only various Spider-senses grant a reprieve, neh? Initiative isn't really rolled because it's then done. But then everyone gets to react to the aftermath anyway.

[Tanarii]

For clarity, my scheme does not depend on who declared they want to attack first. If multiple people want to attack I roll initiative normally, regardless of order of declaration.
Thats a very important distinction. I was getting ready to jump all over your post about this and I when I got to this part I had to back up and start over with this in mind. ;)

[Yakk]

Greater Invisibility has a 1 minute duration. You don't *hide in ambush* with greater invis. You can set it off, but you are risking being too soon; if the PCs move faster/slower than anticipated.

There is a reason the cloak of invisibility is a legendary item.

[Yuroch Kern]

In response to "low key" Verbal components, alas the only ever clarification I've seen was a Sage Advice by Crawford, stating,"The verbal component of a spell must be audible to work. How loud is audible? That's up to the DM." So, that is the only real issue about whether casting it, what, 20 feet away would even give away your square to begin with.

Here's the link, if needed:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/17/audible-verbal-component/

[Tanarii]

In response to "low key" Verbal components, alas the only ever clarification I've seen was a Sage Advice by Crawford, stating,"The verbal component of a spell must be audible to work. How loud is audible? That's up to the DM." So, that is the only real issue about whether casting it, what, 20 feet away would even give away your square to begin with.
Normal conversation sounds like a whisper at 30-60ft. A raised voice doubles that, and shouting triples it.

IMO it is reasonable to assume in a not-loud or not-distracting environment you'll hear someone cast a spell from 20ft away.

[Telok]

IMO it is reasonable to assume

That's our problem. We don't have the same frames of reference.

In a quiet office I can follow a conversation 30' down a hall in another room with the door half open. In a park with kids around (not screaming) I've been completely oblivious to someone arguing on a cell phone 15' away. I've had a DM do +1 dc per 10' that made normal people completely unable to hear screaming murder and swords banging on shields at 205' (for reference that makes a referee whistle at the orher end of an American football field dc 30 to hear in an silent & empty stadium). I have no idea how hard it is to hear someone yelling in a burning building (20? 30? 40?).

[Yuroch Kern]

Without advantage, the mage is likely to fail his stealth check. So how do I describe that to the party? “You hear the noise of someone standing exactly 20 feet forward and 5 feet to the right” doesn’t really seem to make sense.

As my head mage is preparing for this setup, any tips on steps he can make to actually pull it off instead of losing to the party’s better skills? He’s studying them with Arcane Eye and trying to find a way to counter them specifically.

If the room were filled with visible enemies, would it make sense for that to grant advantage to the mage’s stealth check? I can’t imagine people picking up on the rustling of robes of a mage standing behind a group of half a dozen skeletons.

Mostly, all you really need is an obscuring(ambient?) noise that could conceivably conceal your own noise. I don't know your mages' minion line up, but even a Minor Illusion or someone monologuing with Thaumaturgy would work. Gotta work that high Int. Even so, if the Thief beats you on Initiative, he still has to find you. At my table, giving away your position is more like giving a 10' to 15' area, and you have to beat it by 3 to pinpoint the square. Filling the room with figures is also a good way to go, but it seemed that was supposed to happen after the spell...

[Yuroch Kern]

Normal conversation sounds like a whisper at 30-60ft. A raised voice doubles that, and shouting triples it.

IMO it is reasonable to assume in a not-loud or not-distracting environment you'll hear someone cast a spell from 20ft away.

Truth. While OP may need to determine how quiet Verbals can be in this regard without subvocalizing, it may be possible to at conceal what is actually being said at that distance. "Huh, you hear that? Sounds like...Elvish or...Latin....LATIN?!" ZOT.

[HPisBS]

OK, provide a replacement. Give us an initiative scheme that is fair for all the people at the table.

By "fair" I mean, "Will never produce a situation that has a person at the table throw their dice down in disgust, yelling 'That's not fair!'"

And by "all the people" I mean the players and the GM. Mechanics must work the same for both sides of the GM screen (otherwise its not fair).

Should've quoted the rest of it; the answer was right there.


... For another, it's also unnecessary to let all ambushers take their action simultaneously. Since the game uses dice to randomize success and failure for so many things, it's fairly consistent to pick one as the initial attacker, and let the rest simply fall wherever they do in round 1 initiative....

In other words, if nobody's perception beats anyone's stealth, then 1 creature is the instigator - the initial combatant. This first combative action is what actually begins combat during a successful ambush - it's what actually triggers the rolling of initiative, and should therefore be unaffected by the initiative order that follows it. (In other words, the effect can't retroactively affect its preceding cause.)

Playing this way also has the good fortune of always properly interacting with the PC's Alert feat. If it were played that other way, wherein everyone rolls initiative and "takes their first turn" accordingly - even if they don't yet perceive any enemies to act against - then the never-surprised PC would probably win initiative, not be surprised, yet still effectively lose his turn because, again, he doesn't have anything to act against yet - he'd have nothing to respond to. By contrast, if the inciting incident - whether it's a cast spell or a loosed arrow - happens first, then the Alert PC will likely be the first to respond, jumping into action the moment after something happens.

As for a dozen archers all successfully ambushing at once, if you do as I suggested in the quote and only pick 1 archer to initiate combat before you roll initiative, then there won't be any great difference between the methods. All it will do is guarantee the ambushing party gets at least 1 turn in before the defending characters can respond.

(Note that this has no effect on actually determining who is and isn't surprised, since that's handled by stealth vs perception.)

[Nagog]

What should happen is the (invisible) Wizard is detected unless he defeats the PCs passive Perception scores with a Stealth check.



Emphasis mine. This is wildly important: Passive skills exist for a purpose. If their stealth beats their passive perception, they remain unseen, and once Initiative is rolled, party members may use an action to search for the caster (Inquisitive Rogues may do so as a Bonus Action), therefore allowing the mage time to escape. Only those with Passive Perceptions higher than the Stealth Roll will be able to detect him automatically. Considering there is a surprise round in favor of the Wizard and the Rogue is the one who,s causing the problem, the Rogue may get a shot off at the Wizard if they beat them in both initiative and passive perception. Otherwise, the Wizard can use the Dash Action to escape. If the Wizard knows the Rogue is the greatest threat in this endeavor, he will likely cast the Wall of Force with the rogue on the opposite side as him, so even if they do get a shot off, it will ping harmlessly off of the wall.

[BurgerBeast]

Emphasis mine. This is wildly important: Passive skills exist for a purpose... Only those with Passive Perceptions higher than the Stealth Roll will be able to detect him automatically.

And is this a straight stealth vs perception contest? Because if so, then it’s exactly as hard to hide when invisible as when visible.

That’s ridiculous. At the very least the perception check should be at disadvantage for being unable to rely on sight.

I’d probably give the stealth advantage and the perception disadvantage, if I didn’t just make it an auto-success.

[Cazero]

And is this a straight stealth vs perception contest? Because if so, then it’s exactly as hard to hide when invisible as when visible.
Wrong. It is a lot easier to hide when invisible because you don't need any form of cover. That's HUGE. That's, like, the entire point of the spell.
Among other things, you can end your turn anywhere, you are immune to accidental reveal without a check that can happen when enemies move around, and you don't need a distraction to move from one spot to another.

Add all the other ridiculous combat bonuses that not being seen bring and the fact the DM is still free to grant you advantage when invisibility is even more helpful (too much noise to hear footsteps, etc), and invisibility is already overpowered without the blanket automatic advantage that you want to push.

Play any stealth game where invisibility is a thing. Any of them. It's so darn game breaking that it remains overpowered even with major drawbacks like ridiculously short duration.
And note that D&D is not a stealth game. Concealment is meant to be trivial to break once the jig is up, and restoring it takes a lot of effort.

[prabe]

And is this a straight stealth vs perception contest? Because if so, then it’s exactly as hard to hide when invisible as when visible.

Also since you're considered to be heavily obscured, it's not exactly a straight stealth vs. perception contest: the potential observer's perception check should be at disadvantage if they're mainly trying to find you by sight, which IIRC is -5 to their passive perception if you're choosing not to let them roll.

[Dark.Revenant]

Also since you're considered to be heavily obscured, it's not exactly a straight stealth vs. perception contest: the potential observer's perception check should be at disadvantage if they're mainly trying to find you by sight, which IIRC is -5 to their passive perception if you're choosing not to let them roll.

If they're trying to find you by sight, they automatically fail because they effectively have the blinded condition against you.

[prabe]

If they're trying to find you by sight, they automatically fail because they effectively have the blinded condition against you.

So even less a "straight check." Right. That's what I get for talking rules without the rules in front of me.

[Yuroch Kern]

Perception against Invisible are not Sight based per se. They are an attempt to pinpoint the square. The footprints in the sand is a method for this, hence Heavily Obscured. The auto fail on Sight checks represents you do not see exactly where they are in the square, what they are holding, what they are wearing, anything. A Hearing/Smell check, while more viable, are not as accurate as Sight, and are similarly Disadvantaged for fine detail. As far as Ambush goes, completely successful ones I do tend to treat as a tripped Trap, rolling Initiative on the second round for the ambusher. I explain Alert like a Spider-sense, a hunch or an extreme twitch reflex, that enables a character to be clueless but capable.

[BurgerBeast]

Wrong. (Snip)

I’m finding your post difficult to understand. I know that it’s wrong. That’s why I said it’s ridiculous. Are we agreeing or disagreeing?


Add all the other ridiculous combat bonuses that not being seen bring and the fact the DM is still free to grant you advantage when invisibility is even more helpful (too much noise to hear footsteps, etc), and invisibility is already overpowered without the blanket automatic advantage that you want to push.

What? Straw man, much? Apparently you weren’t around for the previous threads about invisibility in which people maintained that all invisibility does is make it so you can try to hide, and there’s no penalty to the Perception check because they can use hearing and environmental cues.


Play any stealth game where invisibility is a thing.

What is a stealth game? Do you mean a game of D&D in which the party regularly uses stealth?


Any of them. It's so darn game breaking that it remains overpowered even with major drawbacks like ridiculously short duration.

We’re talking about the same thing, right? Because it seems to me that being able to fight while invisible would be a pretty significant (i.e. pretty much always winning) advantage.


And note that D&D is not a stealth game.

Okay, so not D&D. What is a stealth game?


Concealment is meant to be trivial to break once the jig is up, and restoring it takes a lot of effort.

I don’t know what this is supposed to mean.

[Cazero]

Apparently, I need to repeat myself.

It is a lot easier to hide when invisible because you don't need any form of cover. That's HUGE. That's, like, the entire point of the spell.
Another time, just to make sure I'm perfectly clear : being invisible is, in and of itself, a major boon when trying to hide.
It allows you to walk right pass guards in a well-lit, featureless gateway in one single check. It forces hostiles to waste actions searching for you to be allowed to attack instead of just walking around the cover behind wich they know you're hiding. It enables reactive stealth when surprised by a patrol.

It is never as hard to hide when invisible as it is when visible because as long as you are visible, your stealth check can be denied or bypassed entirely.

And since the spell does not explicitly grant it, demanding automatic advantage on top of that is akin to cheating.

[BurgerBeast]

Apparently, I need to repeat myself.

Apparently, I need to repeat myself.


Another time, just to make sure I'm perfectly clear : being invisible is, in and of itself, a major boon when trying to hide.
It allows you to walk right pass guards in a well-lit, featureless gateway in one single check. It forces hostiles to waste actions searching for you to be allowed to attack instead of just walking around the cover behind wich they know you're hiding. It enables reactive stealth when surprised by a patrol.

I agree to all of this and never contested it.


It is never as hard to hide when invisible as it is when visible because as long as you are visible, your stealth check can be denied or bypassed entirely.

I agree. But my comments were directed at people who do not share this view. Nothing in what I wrote indicated otherwise.


And since the spell does not explicitly grant it, demanding automatic advantage on top of that is akin to cheating.

I never did demand automatic advantage. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Edit: for context, the post you are referring to was a reply to this:

“Only those with Passive Perceptions higher than the Stealth Roll will be able to detect him automatically.“ (Emphasis added)

There is no indication that this is Passive Perception with a -5 penalty due to disadvantage, and no clarity on what “detect,” means. But at the very least it means that the hiding character is not both unseen and unheard.

[Cazero]

Then I was wrong in my assessment of your position.
Probably because I skimmed the thread. It's like the billionth time this goes around.

[Nagog]

And is this a straight stealth vs perception contest? Because if so, then it’s exactly as hard to hide when invisible as when visible.

That’s ridiculous. At the very least the perception check should be at disadvantage for being unable to rely on sight.

I’d probably give the stealth advantage and the perception disadvantage, if I didn’t just make it an auto-success.

I would give them disadvantage on Perception. To my knowledge, that's the entire point of various creatures having "Advantage on Perception checks relying on...", many of which disclude sight. That advantage would negate the disadvantage of not being able to see anything there.