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View Full Version : Immortal rulers, immortality specialists, Immortality economy.



Clistenes
2020-06-14, 09:58 AM
Almost all D&D editions and many other game systems have class features, spells, potions, magic items...etc., that allow for greatly extended longevity or even eternal youth, and I wonder how many of you portray their ramifications in your games...

To begin with, given the relative accessibility of magic able to cure all diseases, poisons and wounds, plus Regeneration, Restoration, Heal and Resurrection spells, that means that basically all people of power and wealth can reach extremely old age in very good health.

On top of that, there are Potions of Longevity, Tasmia's Heart, Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone, Rod of Security...etc., and spells like Kissed By The Ages, Clone, Reincarnation, Slow Aging...etc., that can prevent aging or reverse it.

So the very top of society can live for centuries or thousands of years. It may be restricted just to the Emperor who rules the continent, or it may be within the reach of high aristocracy too, depending of the rarity of magic in the setting, but the point is, the guy on top just won't die due to old age.

Of course, that demand creates opportunities for employment and to make money. Alchemist and Artificers can earn a living by just brewing a few potions of longevity or by crafting a few, or maybe even a single magic item that slows aging. I can see a guy whose only job is to spend 25 years crafting an item able to stop aging for the king.

A 5e Bard who knows Reincarnation could become obscenely rich by offering his services to aged aristocrats. A king could strike a deal with a Druid Circle, upholding eco-friendly fishing, hunting and logging laws in exchange for benefiting from their Reincarnation spells. A powerful Emperor/Empress could strike a deal with a powerful spellcaster able to PAO him or her into an immortal creature like a Deva.

Wealthy patrons could fund merchants who would hunt for life-extending items all around the world, and adventurers who would explore ruins and dungeons in search of old magic...

As for people who aren't wealthy enough to pay for life-extending magic but who are talented enough (or believe themselves talented enough), they could study and train with the goal of being able to get that life-extending magic, effectively making builds that allow them to get those rather than being combat focused like most PC try to do...

Talented nobles could study magic and alchemy in order to research such spells, potions and items. And there could be sects focusing in the pursue of immortality. There could be Yamabushi-like or Taoist-like Druids who put a lot of emphasis on the goal of getting Timeless Body as a central part of their creed, and Monks who see Timeless Body as stepstone towards getting the Epic Boon of Immortality as part of their belief system.

Poor people (or just well-off-but-not-obscenely-rich people) who couldn't buy life-extending magic and who couldn't afford a magical education would resent it, and it would become a key point in social tensions; religion may become involved too, with creeds that reject life-extending magic becoming popular among the poor. These resentful people would probably misunderstand how hard is to get that life-extending magic and do stupid things like kidnapping a low-level Wizard and putting a knife in his throat, demanding "make me immortal NOW! or else...!".

I feel that the influence of both the access to life-extending magic and the desire for it would have on society is often underscored in most D&D settings. Do you often portray it in your games, or do you hand-wave it and portray people living and dying normally?

And yes, I know powerful spellcasters would often be the ones in charge and use their own powers to halt aging without resorting to external help. That would create an even wider gap between magic Haves and magic Have-nots.

False God
2020-06-14, 10:12 AM
In my worlds?

Usually by combating it with social stigmas against the subject. Cultures that value dying (like dwarves and vikings), cultures that see life beyond "normal age" as unnatural and worthy of death. Cultures with laws against such seeking or undertaking such actions. Cultures that have experienced terrible civil wars and uprisings in their past as a result of the "old guard" being allowed to live forever and remain in control. External cultures that have long-life naturally seeing those who don't and those who seek it out as worthy of conquest and extermination (my elves are not friendly tree-hippies).

It happens from time to time, but players/PCs rarely get to see its effects, since such things are either just starting(and thus the party is tasked with resolving them) or coming to an end(and the party must deal with the fallout).

Those few societies that achieve it rarely do well with it unless they're naturally immortal or extremely long-lived. Even those that are tend to end up in a "old and regimented" rut or in a "there's a lot of assassins". Both tend to have massive gaps between the have and have-nots. The latter tend to have more fluid haves and have-nots, as their society functions basically like the Drow, and the former often end up drifting apart, as the long age eventually dulls the desire to actively rule and creatures without natural longevity are not really designed to deal with living that long.

Clistenes
2020-06-14, 10:56 AM
Mmmm... that sounds like it would encourage the formation of secret immortality cults; alchemists and spellcasters gathering in secret locations to exchange knowledge and resources, teaching their ways only to a select group of trusted apprentices, and forging fake identities to hide their true age...

False God
2020-06-14, 10:58 AM
Mmmm... that sounds like it would encourage the formation of secret immortality cults; alchemists and spellcasters gathering in secret locations to exchange knowledge and resources, teaching their ways only to a select group of trusted apprentices, and forging fake identities to hide their true age...

Indeed it would, as though that's exactly how it often plays out. :smallwink:

Zarrgon
2020-06-14, 11:10 AM
In my world some societies consider extra long lives unnatural, so such a person will be disliked at best. While some societies don't care at all.

Most people that extend their life keep it secret, either to avoid the stigma or so others don't know they have the means. It is typical to fake ones death and then become ones son and heir, for example.

My game has Alternate Reality Rules far beyond the "Easy Safe PC Privilege rules" you find in the books. The world is full of creatures that eat life forces and or memories, so they prey on long lived folk. Plus magic in my world is harsh and dangerous. Potions of Longevity are a good example: hard to make as they need rare ingredients, but also have a chance of killing the drinker(no save, just "your character is dead, make a new one to keep playing").

On top of all that I add lots of Role Playing to characters. That mental part about "living a long time". Seeing things around you change, everyone else dying, and not feeling the same as when you were younger. A lot of long lived folks go insane.

Plus you also get a lot of social stagnation...maybe for good, or maybe for bad.

Luccan
2020-06-14, 11:48 AM
The availability of immortality really varies by game and even in theory the availability definitely varies by edition. Does your 5e game really have that many Druids of 9th level or higher running around interested in extending the life of a ruler? How many Bards of that level use a bonus spell known to learn Reincarnate, when its only real advantage over other resurrection magic is it restores them to a younger body? And what do you do when the bard passes on? Would people accept their ruler had changed bodies or would they suspect a usurper? And it would be much easier for anyone to claim rights to the throne as a result.

3e has, in theory, the most numerous and easily obtained ways to achieve immortality. But that's still based on assumptions of casters interested in dispersing the means of immortality. I imagine there are lots of ways to become immortal because most who know how won't share, so every would be immortal is starting from scratch to learn how to extend their life.

Clistenes
2020-06-14, 12:34 PM
The availability of immortality really varies by game and even in theory the availability definitely varies by edition. Does your 5e game really have that many Druids of 9th level or higher running around interested in extending the life of a ruler? How many Bards of that level use a bonus spell known to learn Reincarnate, when its only real advantage over other resurrection magic is it restores them to a younger body? And what do you do when the bard passes on? Would people accept their ruler had changed bodies or would they suspect a usurper? And it would be much easier for anyone to claim rights to the throne as a result.

3e has, in theory, the most numerous and easily obtained ways to achieve immortality. But that's still based on assumptions of casters interested in dispersing the means of immortality. I imagine there are lots of ways to become immortal because most who know how won't share, so every would be immortal is starting from scratch to learn how to extend their life.

I wasn't speaking of just 5e, but of D&D in general.

If there is just one 9th level Druid in the kingdom, it is enough for the Druid Circle to hold their side of the bargain. There is no need for more.

Well, if you are a Bard and you reach 9th level, and you know you can become filthy rich and gain the protection of royalty just by learning Reincarnate and casting it (in exchange for a ton of money) when a powerful noble dies... why wouldn't you do it?

And when other Bards see this, they will be encouraged to follow your steps.

Yeah, it could be an issue if you change species due to Reincarnate, but you could always retire and let your heir succeed you, and you can use an item that grants Alter Self or Disguise Self when in public. And if people in the kingdom are used to this kind of thing, you could use some legal procedure to ensure you are recognized as the same person... like a Paladin notary devoted to the God of Law could be witness of the casting of the spell or something and write a declaration or whatever.

People trying to pass for the king or the head of a noble house could be detected thanks to spells like Detect Lie, Zone of Truth, Commune or Contact other Plane. In a world where magic like Polymorph, True Polymorth, Alter Self...etc., are real, they should be prepared for this...

Even if casters aren't interested in sharing their toys, people of power and wealth would still try to get them, and some of them would eventually succeed. In a world with murderhobos looting tombs and dungeons all around, and with people of power buying life-extending magic, chances are somebody will eventually bring a Nacreous Gray Spheroid Ioun Stone or a Tasmia's Heart to the Empress. Or some spellcaster will trade his tricks in exchange from something they desire from the monarch...

Alcore
2020-06-14, 02:59 PM
I feel that the influence of both the access to life-extending magic and the desire for it would have on society is often underscored in most D&D settings. Do you often portray it in your games, or do you hand-wave it and portray people living and dying normally?Most of my settings have low magic. By the time venerable age sets in most casters are extremely lucky to have reached 3rd level spells. Of course that is for the humans; elves, dwarves and such run a level or two higher. Then you have the heroes which run higher than them all. A Theocracy (usually) has a single person that can bring back the dead.


So... living and dying normally... for modern times. There are healing spells and detect poison/disease with someone in a large city able to wave their arms and magic it away. Living to old age is a given. The rich almost always reach venerable and a few even get a do over if something cuts it short.


Most of my liches (the majority tap out at 11 levels of caster) tend to gain a couple levels of expert (maybe a level of wizard)... and they're done. Sitting in their lair all day researching the cosmos doesn't provide much XP. They tend to be removed, spacy or "already gone". One Lich the party ran across sat in a catatonic state on his throne until attacked (where he proceeded to blugeon the party with his staff jabbering incoherently. They called my bluff on using a lich at 5th level)


The next lich served them tea and hosted neutral ground for a peace conference between warring kingdoms.

MoiMagnus
2020-06-14, 04:53 PM
How to deal with quasi-immortals beings? (other than "the universe is low magic, so they don't exist")

1) Immortality of the body does not mean immortality of the soul. Most long lived creatures probably end up in "inhuman mental states", if not downright madness. You probably need a strict mental discipline (possibly helped by manually erasing part of your memory) to not eventually fall into extreme behaviours. [And you could even add into the worldbuilding that souls progressively erode themselves while in the material world]. I'd say that acceptation of death when "I've accomplished everything I had to", or magically leaving the mortal world to go live with the gods are also common for immortals to die.

2) Elimination. Between the heirs of the immortal that might want to see their inheritance, or all the enemies the immortals accumulate through their growing madness and progressive loss of common sense, there is a lot of opportunities for immortals to actually die.

3) Status quo. The D&D world is usually an eternal medieval-fantastic world, that doesn't progress technologically. Either because of frequent apocalypses that reset the technology, or from god's interference, or for other reasons. Quite often, you can use the same arguments to explain why there is not that many immortal around.

4) Scalability and side effects. The game provide us with multiple ways to reach longevity or immortality. However, those rules describe ways a single individual could reasonably use, but say nothing about scalability and side effects. E.g reincarnate says that it consume "Rare oils and unguents worth at least 1,000 gp". However it does not states that it is actually possible to mass product such materials. It also doesn't state side-effects that the average PC will not care about, like "in 12% of the case, the subject will never ever feel that his body is really his" or "In 42% of the case after 3 consecutive reincarnations, feel a deep hatred for his past self, and any potential future self. He will likely reject any fourth reincarnation.", or even "Heart attack rates increase by 22% after each reincarnations". You can apply this reasoning to all of them: What about addiction and the consequence on mental states of those magical substances? How much time does it takes to grow the adequate plants as ingredients? [It wouldn't surprise me if the one of the ingredient took multiple thousand years to grow, so good luck to find large quantity of them in a lifetime].

5) "Conservation of magic". That's an idea I've found in the corners of the worldbuilding of an anime (Fate Stay Night), which is that every magical effect has a power "inversely proportional" to its number of active users. A spell of first level is weaker than a ninth level spell because too many peoples are constantly using the first level spell so its power is depleted. If the spell "wish" was suddenly known and usable by any living creature, the spell would scale back to prestidigitation level. Similarly, the more a magical method to extend one's life is common, the less it is efficient. [Which also give a big motivation for immortals to keep their secrets actually secrets, and why "this is the last creature of this ancient race" mean that the creature is god-like OP].

Tanarii
2020-06-14, 07:14 PM
Reincarnation isn't a problem. You're visibly not you any more, so the heir will take over.

For the rest ... well, the god of death sends out his vengeance paladins. :smallamused:

Luccan
2020-06-14, 09:38 PM
I wasn't speaking of just 5e, but of D&D in general.

If there is just one 9th level Druid in the kingdom, it is enough for the Druid Circle to hold their side of the bargain. There is no need for more.

Well, if you are a Bard and you reach 9th level, and you know you can become filthy rich and gain the protection of royalty just by learning Reincarnate and casting it (in exchange for a ton of money) when a powerful noble dies... why wouldn't you do it?

And when other Bards see this, they will be encouraged to follow your steps.

Yeah, it could be an issue if you change species due to Reincarnate, but you could always retire and let your heir succeed you, and you can use an item that grants Alter Self or Disguise Self when in public. And if people in the kingdom are used to this kind of thing, you could use some legal procedure to ensure you are recognized as the same person... like a Paladin notary devoted to the God of Law could be witness of the casting of the spell or something and write a declaration or whatever.

People trying to pass for the king or the head of a noble house could be detected thanks to spells like Detect Lie, Zone of Truth, Commune or Contact other Plane. In a world where magic like Polymorph, True Polymorth, Alter Self...etc., are real, they should be prepared for this...

Even if casters aren't interested in sharing their toys, people of power and wealth would still try to get them, and some of them would eventually succeed. In a world with murderhobos looting tombs and dungeons all around, and with people of power buying life-extending magic, chances are somebody will eventually bring a Nacreous Gray Spheroid Ioun Stone or a Tasmia's Heart to the Empress. Or some spellcaster will trade his tricks in exchange from something they desire from the monarch...

I just used 5e because that was one of the examples. I mentioned 3e as well because I think it does have the most ways to be immortal (Elan are confirmed immortals with 0 LA that you can start as!). I suppose one reason mages might be willing to sell eternal life would be most powerful magic users are smart enough to realize immortality has its drawbacks, including the loss of ones sanity as the passing of ages loses all meaning, combined with the crushing loneliness of eternity and the potential loss of one's preferred afterlife when something (Inevitable-y) gets through all your back-up plans. So, there's little guarantee enough powerful mages will be seduced by the offer of coin and protection to truly extend a ruler's life forever, but in such a scenario they might see it as ultimately being of so little consequence (they'll die eventually, either from lack of interested mages or something a mage can't prevent) that they'll extend some petty tyrants rule a few hundred years if they can get what they want.


Reincarnation isn't a problem. You're visibly not you any more, so the heir will take over.

For the rest ... well, the god of death sends out his vengeance paladins. :smallamused:

And to be fair, in 3e Inevitables make for a good excuse as to why there aren't immortals everywhere

Edit:Oh, and the Reincarnate Druids only require two level 9 members to make their whole circle functionally immortal (and that immortality could lead to more level 9 or higher druids). That could make them a real threat to local political powers. So that's an aspect worth considering

Kaptin Keen
2020-06-15, 01:00 AM
Well, if you are a Bard and you reach 9th level, and you know you can become filthy rich and gain the protection of royalty just by learning Reincarnate and casting it (in exchange for a ton of money) when a powerful noble dies... why wouldn't you do it?

This hinges on so many prerequisites. For one thing, you're assuming the king even wants his life extended. Then, that he's totally fine coming back as halfling. Then that he can keep his throne, now that he's not even the proper race to sit on it.

Then there's the other type of the equation. Everyone knows the Bards Guild is the deadliest of all, with backstabbery murder being the only approved method of advancement. If any bard decides to spend his precious spells on mere money makers, he can be entirely sure to eventually die to another bard who made more prudent choices - picking for his 5th level spells something that can be used in combat.

And then, just for the finale, there may be all sorts of social stigma. Hordes of angry peasants with torches and pitchforks may very well object to their new halfling ruler - even more so if they know it's actually just the same guy as before. Then on top of that, all the proper-sized, proper-raced princes who were waiting to succeed ol' dad may very well be at the front (more likely the back) of the peasant revolt. Any knight who was ever passed over for promotion will side with the princes.

I .... just don't think your plan is going to work.

Not when bards can just hold rock concerts, and make tons of gold using skill checks - rather than having to waste their combat spell slots on nonsense like reincarnate.

Luccan
2020-06-15, 01:14 AM
This hinges on so many prerequisites. For one thing, you're assuming the king even wants his life extended. Then, that he's totally fine coming back as halfling. Then that he can keep his throne, now that he's not even the proper race to sit on it.

Then there's the other type of the equation. Everyone knows the Bards Guild is the deadliest of all, with backstabbery murder being the only approved method of advancement. If any bard decides to spend his precious spells on mere money makers, he can be entirely sure to eventually die to another bard who made more prudent choices - picking for his 5th level spells something that can be used in combat.

And then, just for the finale, there may be all sorts of social stigma. Hordes of angry peasants with torches and pitchforks may very well object to their new halfling ruler - even more so if they know it's actually just the same guy as before. Then on top of that, all the proper-sized, proper-raced princes who were waiting to succeed ol' dad may very well be at the front (more likely the back) of the peasant revolt. Any knight who was ever passed over for promotion will side with the princes.

I .... just don't think your plan is going to work.

Not when bards can just hold rock concerts, and make tons of gold using skill checks - rather than having to waste their combat spell slots on nonsense like reincarnate.

As OP said, this isn't purely a 5e question. Although in the defense of the 5e example, you're making a fair amount of assumptions too. Like the Bard's Guild thing, which I assume is a joke, but is worth addressing all the same because it's still an assumption about the setting. I also think it's safe to assume most peasants don't care if it's the same guy ruling them; it was yesterday, it is today. Most of them have probably never seen the king, so unless they have something against halflings they probably don't immediately care he's now 2'9''. They might get whipped up into a frenzy by some noblemen or other dissidents, but generally speaking who the king is isn't nearly as important as getting their crops in before winter. You're also assuming the king has princes to get uppity; if I'm planning my eternal rule over the land, I'm either not siring heirs or I'm removing the heir system entirely. My kids get to inherit a great deal of luxury so long as I'm king and a swift fall off a large tower if they try to knock dear old dad off. Given I'm the one paying the guys that keep bringing me back (which at least gives them confidence I'll keep honoring our deal, whereas the new guy just killed his own father), there's some assurance I'll be able to take back the throne. Especially since, if I've been ruler for some time, I'm probably keeping things relatively stable. Usurping a throne sows discord and my court should be well aware that my return would mean a return to normalcy, as opposed to whatever the newly crowned murderer wanted to do to shake things up.

mindstalk
2020-06-15, 01:30 AM
My impression of D&D -- which is mostly BECMI and 3.5 -- is that immortality is hard to get (if you don't start with it like warforged or elans.) In a way easiest in BECMI, where being able to cast wish or miracle is hard, but if you can you can pretty much just spam it. Eternal youth for you and your family.

No, wait, the easiest path to immortality is to be a magic-user who relies on the magic jar spell. Like Karla in Record of Lodoss War. 3e nerfed the duration.

For 3.5 the main option I know of is Reincarnate, which is a druid-only special, and druids presumably have issues about Cycle of Life and Balance and such. Also I note that even this spell can't bring back someone who died of old age -- so if you're using this to escape age, you'll have to have the druid kill you first. Go go druidic human sacrifice.

I note the spell says "A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form.", implying there's some memory loss.

OTOH you can approach the issues from different angles. There's no particular reason why an elf or (maybe polymorphed) dragon couldn't end up as lord or king of a bunch of humans, but then you can combine "competent power-grabbers rarely get overthrown" with "very long life", and you could have elven kings over humans accreting. Basically every time there's a power vacuum there's a small chance an elf or someone will end up in charge, but then they *stick* and the next power vacuum is deferred for centuries. Anyway, so you get a long-lived upper class, it just relies on cross-species political units rather than 'medical magic'.

The sheer "I'm better than you" of longevity also helps the mystique of autocratic leadership, even more so if it's a dragon or demon or elven wizard who can throw magic around.

I agree that if you could offer immortality to people, and it's scarce, then you can rake in tons of money, or favors, or corrupt people. 'Not dying' is a huge thing to offer, people will provably spend tons on the mere hope of it. Though "the afterlife is provably real" might sap some of your business; the people who can afford 1000 GP in unguents can probably also afford a plane shift to visit their afterlife.

(Price of the Phoenix is an old Star Trek novel about someone corrupting Federation elites via logical use of transporter technology. raise dead is also a powerful bribe, though we're more used to its ready availability on D&D.)

mindstalk
2020-06-15, 01:35 AM
Not when bards can just hold rock concerts, and make tons of gold using skill checks - rather than having to waste their combat spell slots on nonsense like reincarnate.

That makes no sense to me. Most people aren't in combat every day, so there's no 'waste' of spell slots.

How do bards get Reincarnate anyway? It's not on their SRD list. https://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm Is there a feat for getting cross-list spells?

Luccan
2020-06-15, 01:40 AM
That makes no sense to me. Most people aren't in combat every day, so there's no 'waste' of spell slots.

How do bards get Reincarnate anyway? It's not on their SRD list. https://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm Is there a feat for getting cross-list spells?

Magical Secrets class feature. Which, thinking about it, means you actually need a 14th level Bard to pull it off. Wait maybe 10th. The SRD I tend to use is messed up.

Edit: yeah it's 10th

Mastikator
2020-06-15, 02:26 AM
D&D worlds are plagued by extreme casual violence, murder and unrelenting mayhem also known as The Party Of Adventurers. The risk of death caused by another person are high enough that the odds of living for hundreds of years drops to zero, even dragons have a hard time getting past the 1000 year mark because of an endless stream of adventurers hurtling towards the treasures.

Basically all the anti-aging cream in the world isn't going to make you stab proof. If there was such a thing as true immortality an adventurer would turn up, use it on themselves and leverage that to neutralize these ageless aristocrats.

NichG
2020-06-15, 03:14 AM
So, just random thoughts here...

A society where becoming immortal is a requirement for basic rights within the society - everyone else is considered to be such a flickering short existence that there's no point investing in them, trying to build a relationship with them, etc. Having children without first guaranteeing their immortality source is seen as extremely irresponsible if not criminal. There are long-term contracts, insurance setups, and the like which guarantee payment and resources when the time comes that they're needed - either in the form of resurrection to repair against violent ends, or just general extension of aging periods.

There's a class system of sorts based on what sort of immortality you can afford, with the lowest rungs being methods which are very long term (remove aging, death as an issue to prevent periodic costs) but are inconvenient in some really obnoxious way. For example, being made into a ghost while you wait your turn in a century-long queue to be re-embodied based on public funds. Almost no one bothers with lichdom since it has a stigma of being the same as the lower class immortality, but is extremely expensive and also requires quite a lot of skill at magic.

The lower-middle class are those which have used some kind of long-term solution to prevent periodic aging from being a problem (or as expensive), but still need to shell out for accidental death and the like - maybe this involves polymorph shenanigans into longer-lived races, for example. Mostly their way of life is still governed by having to be able to pay the costs to be immortal, and avoiding being forced to become undead or other unpleasantries. If they die to violence or accident, they're likely in the waitlist for awhile since they might not have assets available to cover the surprise cost. Some might try alternate ways to provision their immortality in order to cut costs and free up a bit more resources for day-to-day life - maybe agreeing to let a local vampire turn them, or taking a permanent job on the Astral.

The middle class can afford to basically just cover a periodic Reincarnate, along with fiddling around with the results to keep a body that's reasonable to them. The upper end of this can reincarnate a few times in a row so that their resting body is 'natural' rather than risking embarrassing collapse of a permanent polymorph to anti-magic or dispel effects. Immortality-in-style becomes a sort of aspirational thing. To enter the upper ranges of influence in the society, its seen as important to show that you aren't making compromises to afford your immortality - your choice of how to stick around says something about you.

The upper class tend to go idiosyncratic and off the deep end in costs. There are 'naturalists' who jump through elaborate hoops to extend the lifespan of their first life indefinitely, to avoid the 'crass act' of needing to go through a resurrection or reincarnation process. There are 'transformatists' who find more fancy ways of being innately immortal and embrace them fully (of course using as thorough a way to achieve the end as possible - no sloppy permanent polymorphs for the upper crust). These are the people burning Wishes to do the Savage Species ritual to change their race into Elan or True Dragon, attempting to acquire Divine Rank 0 for somewhere, crafting their own perfect golem body for themselves...

Then there are the three sets of outliers of this society. One is adventurers, who risk death at such a high rate that they're basically taking a gamble with their status - they might go bankrupt and be forced to be a ghost for 500 years, or they might rise up. And soul-destroying or really exotic forms of death are pretty rare in society proper, so the adventurers are seen as sort of irresponsibly crazy for risking it.

A secondary outlier is the society's military - Thinaun weapons are widely used as a way to make losses really sting, holding slain souls of the other side hostage. The military class works on a bit of a pyramid scheme. People wanting to have children but unable to afford an immortality contract for them can serve a 25 year service term, after which they will receive one base level contract to be provided by the state for a child. Their own resurrection expenses are paid for during the service term if their soul is available, but ransom is never paid if their soul is taken.

The third outlier are voluntary and involuntary mortals, those who explicitly refuse any sort of immortality arrangements. Some children of the other classes intentionally embrace mortality as they see the existing inertia of society's leadership as something too difficult to successfully break into, and this is a way of creating new social structures that those existing people can't actually join. For the most part though, a lot of people in this class are trying to get into the system but might have certain standards - 'I want to pursue immortality, but I won't become undead to do it' and the like. On the one hand, costs for those in this caste are significantly lower than everyone else in the society, giving them a short-term economic advantage which can be used to get a bit of a leg up if they hurry. On the other hand, there is discrimination against them and they're at high risk for certain social standards to be punishingly strict - in particular, the death penalty is used more like an extremely hefty fine than an ultimate end. So its a very precarious way of life.

The birth rate of this society is quite lower than in other places and so there is some stagnancy from that, but at the same time it's a strong ethic to expand into new places or create new hierarchies, businesses, etc elsewhere in the world or even the planes. So younger immortals are often sent as colonists, ambassadors, merchants, etc to new lands and new markets as a way to make room for them to grow into leadership positions without having to oust the current leadership. At the highest levels, there's a rule that any of the key positions can only be held by any one person for 25 years over the course of their lifetime. There's still a lot of people hovering around saying 'you should listen to my advice, I held this position 500 years ago and I'm friends with the last 10 holders...' and stuff like that, so this doesn't completely resolve the issue of immortality-driven stagnancy, but usually every couple of hundred years there's a major cultural upset from below and some new branch or direction is formed that systematically rejects the older ways.

Kaptin Keen
2020-06-15, 04:16 AM
As OP said, this isn't purely a 5e question. Although in the defense of the 5e example, you're making a fair amount of assumptions too. Like the Bard's Guild thing, which I assume is a joke, but is worth addressing all the same because it's still an assumption about the setting. I also think it's safe to assume most peasants don't care if it's the same guy ruling them; it was yesterday, it is today. Most of them have probably never seen the king, so unless they have something against halflings they probably don't immediately care he's now 2'9''. They might get whipped up into a frenzy by some noblemen or other dissidents, but generally speaking who the king is isn't nearly as important as getting their crops in before winter. You're also assuming the king has princes to get uppity; if I'm planning my eternal rule over the land, I'm either not siring heirs or I'm removing the heir system entirely. My kids get to inherit a great deal of luxury so long as I'm king and a swift fall off a large tower if they try to knock dear old dad off. Given I'm the one paying the guys that keep bringing me back (which at least gives them confidence I'll keep honoring our deal, whereas the new guy just killed his own father), there's some assurance I'll be able to take back the throne. Especially since, if I've been ruler for some time, I'm probably keeping things relatively stable. Usurping a throne sows discord and my court should be well aware that my return would mean a return to normalcy, as opposed to whatever the newly crowned murderer wanted to do to shake things up.

The bard guild, while joke-ish, is an example of a reason why you might want to seriously consider another choice of spell. You live in a world where only violent murder has allowed you to reach level 9 - now you're suddenly going to invest in what is basically a menial production spell so you can get rich???

I'm going to go out on a limb and claim you know peasant revolts are a real, historical thing. It seems to be the second most common thing farmers do, besides farm. So if the king gets a tad too clever, and makes up his mind to rule forever (as a halfling, no less - seriously, who doesn't hate halflings?!), I'm sure they'll be up in arms before you can even invoke the first passage of the reincarnate spell.

Of course I'm assuming princes - human offspring is not only a vital part of all dynasties ever, it's also quite, quite central to the whole 'being human' thing. It's how we're not Adam and Eve, respectively, and there's no one else.

But princes are also just an example. When you decide it's time for you to become the Emperor of Everything Forever - someone is going to decide enough is enough, and murder you. I'm going to state quite simply that there are no exceptions to this rule. Whether they succeed is another matter. Or even get so far as making the attempt, but whatever.

MoiMagnus
2020-06-15, 04:56 AM
Reincarnation isn't a problem. You're visibly not you any more, so the heir will take over.

If reincarnation is common enough in the universe (so high magic universe), peoples can't play dump. It would be like saying in the real world "Well, that old guy doesn't look like the king 30 years before, I'm 100% sure the king didn't had any grey hairs". We accept the fact that peoples change appearance through ageing because that's obvious to us. In a world where spell-casters able to cast reincarnation are common, peoples would also accept the appearance change from reincarnation as normal. [Even if the average farmer doesn't know about it, what is important is that the king's allies recognise his reincarnation as him.]

(But that's a good plot hook for a world where reincarnation is rare enough so that most peoples in power find it dubious that the king had access to reincarnate / don't know what reincarnate is.)

Sinewmire
2020-06-15, 06:35 AM
I played with this with one of my Elven cultures.

It's a post-scarcity civilisation, where crops are grown by Golems, and given elven fertility and lifespan there's not much danger of overpopulation. The queen rules over the cities, where the people get a ration every day of free, golem-grown food, and everyone only does the work they want to. Farmers farm because of love of the land and satisfaction of the work, cooks cook for whoever they want out of enjoyment of the craft and extra money etc, artists are free to pursue their vision etc. There are of course, those who chose to do nothing, and they are generally seen as layabouts, but it doesn't hurt anyone. The only real laws are "don't annoy the queen" and society is based around who can be the most interesting, be it entertainers, inventors, etc.

The reason, of course, that the Elven cities aren't immediately deluged with immigrants is that everything that isn't farmland or city is dense, dangerous woodland filled with monsters, managed by the elf king, and his druids and rangers. Not that people don't try.

Alcore
2020-06-15, 07:34 AM
I played with this with one of my Elven cultures.

It's a post-scarcity civilisation, where crops are grown by Golems, and given elven fertility and lifespan there's not much danger of overpopulation. The queen rules over the cities, where the people get a ration every day of free, golem-grown food, and everyone only does the work they want to. Farmers farm because of love of the land and satisfaction of the work, cooks cook for whoever they want out of enjoyment of the craft and extra money etc, artists are free to pursue their vision etc. There are of course, those who chose to do nothing, and they are generally seen as layabouts, but it doesn't hurt anyone. The only real laws are "don't annoy the queen" and society is based around who can be the most interesting, be it entertainers, inventors, etc.

The reason, of course, that the Elven cities aren't immediately deluged with immigrants is that everything that isn't farmland or city is dense, dangerous woodland filled with monsters, managed by the elf king, and his druids and rangers. Not that people don't try.I do my elves quite differently too.

Elves are often portrayed as tree hugging but it doesn't appear that many did research on their favorite material.


when properly treated and cared for a wood based construction will struggle to last longer than three hundred years. If not treated for erosion? Maybe a hundred. This is why no authentic wooden castles have survived into the modern age while our stone ones only need a sprucing up (often fixing battle damage too). Sure a good number were burned down but they lack the longevity to last if not.

So most of my elves (which are switched to wood elves) have simply stopped caring about kingdoms and material wealth. Unless you enchant each and every nail the most well constructed and maintained buildings will not last more than half a lifetime.

So they are nomads in a communal lifestyle. garbed in furs, leathers and, climate permitting, optional clothing. Simple stick and hide huts, bows, javelins and spears are the main weapons. The more processed materials are usually only present if trade is established with nearby people. Sacred places tend to last (due to enchantments) with an old folks home nearby with at least one honored tribe tending to the elders. Once a decade the tribe rotates with another.

Not even using live trees as homes escapes this dynamic; unless they have Redwood longevity most trees only live a single elf lifetime. They don't fight death; they see it as a natural thing that isn't to be avoided. It confuses them to no end how humans keep clawing for a few more years.



The rest of my elves follow a more Tolkien style with stone structures being common with artistic carving to appear more planet shaped. Wooden structures are built as needed and only rebuilt when needed again.

Tanarii
2020-06-15, 08:30 AM
For 3.5 the main option I know of is Reincarnate, which is a druid-only special, and druids presumably have issues about Cycle of Life and Balance and such. Also I note that even this spell can't bring back someone who died of old age -- so if you're using this to escape age, you'll have to have the druid kill you first. Go go druidic human sacrifice.
In 5e, they removed that restriction.

But that explains why when this same topic came up last week in the 5e forums, someone stated that you'd have to kill something first. I assume it's a well known limitation of the 3.5e version and they were getting them mixed up.

Max_Killjoy
2020-06-15, 08:43 AM
Observation -- the impact of PCs becoming ageless is far less concerning than the impact of broadly available agelessness.

A PC becoming ageless blocks a scant few spells that are often unfun to be hit with anyway (not challenging, just unfun), and just on doing what PCs do.

A society, or even the "elites" of a society, becoming ageless, fundamentally changes the worldbuilding.

mindstalk
2020-06-15, 10:50 AM
I am reminded that 3e arcanists can duplicate Reincarnate with Limited Wish. Or clerics with Miracle.

NichG: awesome immortality culture write up!

Kastor: most peasant revolts failed. And AIUI they were mostly against the local lord taxing them, not against the distant and often vaguely loved (if only as a curb to nobles) king.

And if you're planning to be immortal, not creating princes - or letting them grow up - is a reasonable precaution.

King of Nowhere
2020-06-15, 05:11 PM
in my world most of those immortality systems just don't work. the gods created mortals because they want their souls, they don't want people to become immortal. plus, given too much time, a mortal can eventually find a way to challenge the gods; unacceptable.
lichdom was one of the very few things that worked, and the high priest of an evil god even managed to make it look acceptable. turns out he was helping his highest level clerics go lich through the ages, so that in centuries he gathered an army of hundreds of high level undead casters (it also solves the loialty problems: as clerics, they can't betray their god if they want to keep spellcasting).
after that, ways to get immortal are strongly mistrusted. the only reason to not ban them outright is that you may want your own champion to keep living, or you may get outcompeted by your enemies.

PairO'Dice Lost
2020-06-15, 06:06 PM
There are long-term contracts, insurance setups, and the like which guarantee payment and resources when the time comes that they're needed - either in the form of resurrection to repair against violent ends, or just general extension of aging periods.

The setting for my current campaign is fairly high-magic (think Eberron if you didn't get rid of all the high-level characters) and the House Jorasco-equivalent organization offers literal "life insurance" policies that restore your lost life in the same way car insurance would restore your lost car.

Policies range from very cheap ones where commoners can buy into what's basically a raise dead raffle in case of on-the-job fatalities to very expensive ones where nobles in fear of assassination are constantly monitored by divinations and given a true resurrection in the event they're killed and their body is destroyed, complete with teleportation-dispatched retrieval teams to recover whatever they were wearing and carrying at the time. Barring large-scale wars or disasters that exhaust the House's healing and resurrection capabilities or particularly high-grade assassins with soul-destroying capabilities, pretty much everyone who can afford it lives out their natural lifespan with no fear of permanent injury or death.

The only reason they don't offer immortality on tap as well is that for plot-relevant reasons druidic magic isn't accessible, undeath (specifically Ghostwalk ghosthood) is reserved as a privilege for the noble classes, and life-extension magic is jealously guarded as an Alchemists Guild monopoly; lichification, elanification, limited wishing up a reincarnate, and such are definitely still around, they're just only available to powerful casters and not to anyone with the gold to pay for it. But there are definitely enough immortals hanging around that the legal system reflects the assumption of common immortality, the civilization has been relatively stable for several thousand years with the same noble houses in charge, and so forth.

King of Nowhere
2020-06-15, 10:04 PM
organization offers literal "life insurance" policies that restore your lost life in the same way car insurance would restore your lost car.

Policies range from very cheap ones where commoners can buy into what's basically a raise dead raffle in case of on-the-job fatalities to very expensive ones where nobles in fear of assassination are constantly monitored by divinations and given a true resurrection in the event they're killed and their body is destroyed, complete with teleportation-dispatched retrieval teams to recover whatever they were wearing and carrying at the time. Barring large-scale wars or disasters that exhaust the House's healing and resurrection capabilities or particularly high-grade assassins with soul-destroying capabilities, pretty much everyone who can afford it lives out their natural lifespan with no fear of permanent injury or death.

i have the same in my campaign world, though it's churches that sell them, seeing as they are the ones with the resurrection spells.
powerful nations and other organizations keep a diamond stockpile in case of war.

as a result, though, soul-trapping, soul-destroying and other ways to prevent resurrections are seen as a really big deal. high level people are fine participating in low-intensity conflicts based on scry-and-die because they know that they risk nothing. if they get killed, they get better. they may get their gear stolen, but they can easily get replacement that are only mildly inferior. even if they were to die permanently, they generally have nothing to fear from the afterlife.
but the chance of not being resurrected, not going to the afterlife? of death for real? that raises the stakes dramatically. binding a soul is the equivalent of the nuclear option: you only do it as a last resort, and you can expect others to retaliate in kind.

Max_Killjoy
2020-06-15, 10:50 PM
In one of my settings, gaining agelessness requires more than one normal lifetime. There's a very delicate balance of gaining enough mastery over life/magic energy to extend your life enough to keep gaining mastery and so on. This is also the only way for humans to gain true mastery of magic (outside of a god bending the rules to grant it to an important agent). A true magus is like several hundred years old at least.

This also explains why they're not all mage-kings and priest-kings... the mindset and dedication and focus needed to achieve true mastery and actual agelesses doesn't leave room for the petty concerns of telling 1000s of other people what to do. The true magus is in effect a combination of theoretical mathematician or physicist, philosophy PhD, symphony musician, Olympic athlete, and Bruce Lee. If you're bothering them for help with something or to make a decision for other people, it had better be IMPORTANT. The mystics, seekers, magi, etc have their own "magical underworld" of allies and competitors and foes, and they largely keep to their own business and their own conflicts.

Those who figure out a little magic -- typical mental/emotional/soul magic -- and use it to form or seize petty kingdoms and cults risk running afoul of one of these ancient masters or dedicated seekers, and finding out what true power really is, their paltry mind-tricks swept aside by one who mastered their own inner self and through it channels the energy of creation and life into sublime and miraculous effects.


The Zath (twilight people) are all ageless, a scant handful are actually immortal in the truest sense, as the result of various cosmic accidents. Their "ruler" is known to the outside world as Deathless Kivar, the undying witch queen of a dominion of shadow and steel, of alchemy and artifice.

Lucas Yew
2020-06-16, 03:18 AM
In high-end Wuxia (including but not exclusively Xianxia), the high leveled martial artists who managed to gain effective immortality (and may or may not choose to ascend into the celestial bureaucracy) are usually described as becoming bored over mundane matters over time, especially in the more classic stories as an inevitable side effect of mental enlightenment which is critical in achieving said high level as a prime prerequisite (modern Xianxia supers written in mainland China tend NOT to benefit from any mental enlightenment of any kind (to put it mildly), which was a shocking recent discovery for me). Hence they usually don't pose any disruption upon mundane economic systems and such.

By the way, PF2 core just handed out immortality from aging like candy for Monks and Druids of 14th level or higher right from launch, but took away stuff like easy flat immunity from radiation/poison/disease from the paws of player character classes in general (not to mention having Elixirs of Life lose the rejuvenation abilities too). So no immortal hermit loafing around a radioactive wasteland idly scratching one's butt; personally that's a bittersweet but ultimately positive tradeoff.

Clistenes
2020-06-16, 04:26 AM
modern Xianxia supers written in mainland China tend NOT to benefit from any mental enlightenment of any kind (to put it mildly), which was a shocking recent discovery for me

I know what you mean: Everybody is a status-obsessed, vengeful murderous thug, specially main characters. It's a bit scary for what it reveals about the average Chinese's power fantasies...

It also shows how different East Asian cultures are among themselves. Japanese fantasy heroes, for example, are often either status-oblivious savant fools who only think about eating, fighting (for fun) and spying on girls, or extremely submissive doormats who take any kind of abuse or humiliation with a smile, try to fulfill other people's expectations to the point of giving up their lives, and forgive everything that is done both to themselves and to others... Rewards (like love, wealth, power and fame) are usually forced on them by a third party, not pursued.

I have realized that, when Japanese say "strong-willed", it really means "resilient", as in being able to take emotional punishment without breaking down or giving up; a "strong-willed" character can very well be a doormat unable to stand their ground and ready to give up as soon as anybody is slightly upset at what they are doing...

The few Japanese heroes who keep grudges and resend mistreatment tend to be revenge-fueled over-the-top edgelords that want to destroy everything and everybody.

About Korean fantasy stories, what surprised me most was how much Korean ladies seem to like cold, ruthless, cruel, powerful men who treat women like trash.

Xapi
2020-06-16, 06:37 PM
This thread got me thinking about a setting where long lived rulers are given the chance to "retire" via Reincarnation: They get to live a new life, starting from zero, but their titles are gone, although they receive some sort of pension or lump sum, and may have some sort of reverence attached to them (think former US Presidents).

This would also create an incentive for them to make a "livable" society, because they will, at their reign's end, actually start to live in it.

MoiMagnus
2020-06-17, 04:46 AM
This thread got me thinking about a setting where long lived rulers are given the chance to "retire" via Reincarnation: They get to live a new life, starting from zero, but their titles are gone, although they receive some sort of pension or lump sum, and may have some sort of reverence attached to them (think former US Presidents).

This would also create an incentive for them to make a "livable" society, because they will, at their reign's end, actually start to live in it.

They also don't lose their influence (their friends, the secrets they know, ...)
Which mean the way back up to the top will be quite short.
In fact, that probably be a priority for the ruler coming nearby the end of his life: making sure he has placed enough peoples he trusted / coerced into tutoring his future self back to the elite.

Something like: the day after reincarnation, the now dead king is recruited as advisor for the new king, and become part of the new king's council in one year because of all the allies and influence he still has, and in few years he get back titles and become officially part of the aristocracy again. Assuming an elective monarchy, you could have two kings alternating with each other for quite a long time, possibly one being the puppet of the other.

King of Nowhere
2020-06-17, 07:05 AM
there is so much focus on the grimdark and abusive consequences of an immortal ruler, but there are also positive possibilities. once you have a great ruler, you can keep the great ruler indefinitely. there are going to be some champions of good at the top, too. or some who are simply very skilled administrators.
which would make it even more difficult to substitute them after a while, because once somebody has held a specific office for centuries, there is literally no one else who knows how to do the job. if you were to actually lose the guy, nobody would know how to fix the paperwork, or how to make things happen.

in my campaign world there is a powerful leader who managed to keep his job after his (final) death; people planeshift in the afterlife regularly to ask him directives. the thing is, he was so good at his job, he kept the organization working and strong for three centuries while alive (elf), and everyone who managed to usurp him failed miserably at holding things together. he also has a sterling reputation for trustworthyness that nobody else can replicate, and he makes people feel safe at leaving him in charge. so, when he died of old age, the rest of the ruling council looked at each other for a successor and realized nobody else could live up to that legacy... so they went to the afterlife to ask the guy to keep doing his job

Xapi
2020-06-17, 11:08 AM
They also don't lose their influence (their friends, the secrets they know, ...)
Which mean the way back up to the top will be quite short.
In fact, that probably be a priority for the ruler coming nearby the end of his life: making sure he has placed enough peoples he trusted / coerced into tutoring his future self back to the elite.

Something like: the day after reincarnation, the now dead king is recruited as advisor for the new king, and become part of the new king's council in one year because of all the allies and influence he still has, and in few years he get back titles and become officially part of the aristocracy again. Assuming an elective monarchy, you could have two kings alternating with each other for quite a long time, possibly one being the puppet of the other.

An elective monarchy is a big assumption, although the rest of your point stands. I can see it working both ways though, you could have very strong rules in place to prevent this sort of shennanigans, or you could have rampant abuse of the old king's favor.

I have to say though that trust built via political power usually erodes very quickly when that political power is lost.

aglondier
2020-06-17, 07:24 PM
And striding boldly into the throne room of the immortal ruler is...a Marut Inevitable...who kills said ruler and anyone else involved in avoiding a proper, timely, death.
Not that I use Inevitables much. But I would imagine that any immortal society would have to account for unstoppable juggernauts from the outer planes occasionally taking offense to their activities...and the inevitable escalation when they successfully resist the assault...

On a smaller scale, our group (consisting of a dwarf, an elf, a halfelf, an aasimar, a changeling and a goblin) are already looking for a romantic match for the party goblin, because he is so short-lived. We are planning to mentor and look after his children and grandchildren over the coming decades. As adventurers we each have goals decades or centuries in the planning, while the goblin barely looks to the next meal, and it makes for an interesting dynamic at the table.

mindstalk
2020-06-17, 07:32 PM
A large chunk of all monarchies were elective. Probably a minority but a big minority, not exotic.

Clistenes
2020-06-17, 08:21 PM
And striding boldly into the throne room of the immortal ruler is...a Marut Inevitable...who kills said ruler and anyone else involved in avoiding a proper, timely, death.
Not that I use Inevitables much. But I would imagine that any immortal society would have to account for unstoppable juggernauts from the outer planes occasionally taking offense to their activities...and the inevitable escalation when they successfully resist the assault...

On a smaller scale, our group (consisting of a dwarf, an elf, a halfelf, an aasimar, a changeling and a goblin) are already looking for a romantic match for the party goblin, because he is so short-lived. We are planning to mentor and look after his children and grandchildren over the coming decades. As adventurers we each have goals decades or centuries in the planning, while the goblin barely looks to the next meal, and it makes for an interesting dynamic at the table.

When was the last time a Marut did his job...? I mean, Toril is chock full with immortal or near-immortal spellcasters, and Maruts don't bother them. Oerth isn't so bad, but it has its share of liches and abnormally long-lived spellcasters... Could it be that once you destroy a few of them they leave you alone?

Anyways, Maruts no longer seem interested in hunting people who live too long in 5e; they enforce contracts now.

Luccan
2020-06-18, 12:18 AM
When was the last time a Marut did his job...? I mean, Toril is chock full with immortal or near-immortal spellcasters, and Maruts don't bother them. Oerth isn't so bad, but it has its share of liches and abnormally long-lived spellcasters... Could it be that once you destroy a few of them they leave you alone?

Anyways, Maruts no longer seem interested in hunting people who live too long in 5e; they enforce contracts now.

I like to think most of them get trapped by those powerful enough to deal with them or at least keep blowing them up so they have to reform on Mechanus/Nirvana and the cosmic Lawful bureaucracy moves too slowly to reassign another Marut or send back up in a timely manner. So most immortals end up being killed off by adventurers anyway.

Tyrant
2020-06-18, 07:59 PM
When was the last time a Marut did his job...? I mean, Toril is chock full with immortal or near-immortal spellcasters, and Maruts don't bother them.
Is Toril really chock full of immortal or near immortal spellcasters though? You have the Chosen (of Mystra), who are the chosen of a god and presumably have some level of immunity to these types of things. Likewise with other Chosen. Beyond them aren't you mainly looking at Liches* and some of the Netherese? And of those two groups, some are also Chosen or former Chosen. With Liches you have adventurers and certain Clerics pursuing them so Maruts might not bother.

Aside from a seeming abundance of Liches, I never got the impression that there are immortals all over the Realms.

*A number of these are from ancient Nethril and are quite powerful and experienced after having 'lived' for over 2000 years. They probably figured out a way to deal with Maruts. And in the case of Larloch, if I recall correctly he was a Chosen on top of that.

Vahnavoi
2020-06-19, 10:07 AM
The history of Praedor's setting deal extensively with societal effects of immortality and planar travel. Namely, in Borvaria, wide-spread use of immortality elixir and planar gates created a Tippyverse*) style near or actual post-scarcity society. The resultant massive overpopulation lead to overuse of planar gates, leading to societal collapse via multiplanar apocalyptic collapse.

The ruling class of the few survivors heavily restricted the use of both planar gates and immortality elixir to prevent the disaster from happening again in their safe haven, Jaconia. This lead to creation of a growing slave-class of mortals serving under their wizard-kings. As time passed, the immortal rulers grew more decadent and insane, creating internal conflict between those who longed for Borvaria's lost splendor and those who had never even seen it. This lead to near-failure of the self-contol in the immortal high society, threatening another multiplanar destruction event, culminating in a civil war where some wizards allied with rebelling slaves to overthrow the remaining wizard-kings. Enough wizards died that the immortal society never recovered and they largely passed the torch to mortal generations, withdrawing into their own communities. In the present day of Jaconia, the immortality elixir is one of, if not the most closely-guarded secrets. No amount of money can buy it, the wizards only allow it to heirs of established wizard families (and even then, someone higher up in their gerontocracy probably has to die first). They have a special task force dedicated to keeping the elixir, the use of magic and any threatening artefacts out of the hands of mortals. One of the few times in recent history when they openly interfered in politics of mortals, was to destroy a religion which demanded access to the elixir, just to remind everyone that this is not tolerated and they still have the power to put unruly mortals down.

*) The Praedor comics predate the D&D-derived Tippyverse, and I'm fairly sure the licensed RPG system does as well.